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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-06-29

---Logopened Sun Jun 29 00:00:46 2008
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00:18<ccfreak2k>sdlgl makes openttd a lot more smooth than the standard sdl driver.
00:18<ccfreak2k>TiberiusTeng will be pleased.
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01:56<ccfreak2k>If I'm interpreting callgrind's data correctly, then the opengl blitter has a hell of a lot less CPU overhead than the 32bpp-anim blitter.
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02:49<TiberiusTeng>ccfreak2k, can I have your diff please ? :D
02:49<ccfreak2k>I'm not sure how to make one.
02:50<hylje>what version control system do you use
02:51<hylje>do you keep your changes on your working copy
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02:51<TiberiusTeng>it's much better if you can diff against a tree patched with my opengl patch
02:51<ccfreak2k>I just checked out whatever revision opengl was based on and started hacking at that.
02:51<TiberiusTeng>with mercurial it's really easy to do ...
02:51<hylje>ye, mercurial or git are better for distributed development
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02:53<ccfreak2k>TiberiusTeng, check out the callgrind png I linked to in my post.
02:53<TiberiusTeng>oh I just saw that
02:53<TiberiusTeng>it's amazing ...
02:53<ccfreak2k>Turns out it really IS useful after all.
02:54<TiberiusTeng>actually I didn't profiled it along with 32bpp-anim under win32 yet, just FELT the difference :p
02:54<ccfreak2k>Well, I could definitely feel the difference in my Slackware box.
02:54<ccfreak2k>Anything above 800x600 was all jerky.
02:54<TiberiusTeng>that's why I said that the bottleneck's not at blitter anymore
02:55<TiberiusTeng>try load some openttdcoop savegames and it's still laggy when zoomed out
02:55<TiberiusTeng>but I can't isolate the bottleneck anymore
02:55<TiberiusTeng>(nah, don't tell me it's that MD5 causing delay ... for a long enough game it shouldn't be an issue)
02:56<ccfreak2k>The callgrind profiling was done at the main menu.
02:56<ccfreak2k>Now, how do I diff two directories recursively?
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02:56<TiberiusTeng>something like diff -U5 -r
02:57<TiberiusTeng>ahh, try learn mercurial, you'll definitively love it. :D
02:57<planetmaker>with svn you just call "diff > blubber.diff" in your root dir of that checkout
02:57<hylje>svn diff
02:58<TiberiusTeng>but I wish him diff against a tree patched with my opengl diff ...
02:58<hylje>`diff` is a different tool
02:58<TiberiusTeng>is svn capable of doing that ? :p
02:58<planetmaker>my kdesvn is
02:58<hylje>that kind of diffing produces whatever changes were done to the working copy
02:58<planetmaker>I know, hylje
02:58<ccfreak2k>How do I "apply" a diff again?
02:58<planetmaker>patch <p0 blubber.diff
02:59<hylje>patch -p0 -i foo.diff
02:59<planetmaker>shit. I should go, have breakfast.
02:59<TiberiusTeng>ccfreak2k, can I copy that callgrind screenshot to my server and publish it on my blog ?
02:59<planetmaker>patch -p0 < foo.diff
02:59<ccfreak2k>TiberiusTeng, ok.
03:00<ccfreak2k>This diff I made has a bunch of crap in it.
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03:01<planetmaker>TiberiusTeng: any special hardware requirements for your opengl blitter patch?
03:02<TiberiusTeng>hmm like my first post about it said, GeForce 6100+ or RadeOn 9550+
03:02<TiberiusTeng>since it uses fragment programs (pixel shaders)
03:04<ccfreak2k>TiberiusTeng, why don't I just tar the three files I changed?
03:05<TiberiusTeng>uh, yes, it's a solution too :p
03:05<planetmaker>hm... :( I guess, I have too old hardware :(
03:05<ccfreak2k>Well, you already HAVE your changes with opengl.
03:05<ccfreak2k>I just tacked on sdlgl.
03:05<TiberiusTeng>planetmaker, do glxinfo and see if you got GL_ARB_fragment_program in it
03:06<TiberiusTeng>that's the minimum requirement ...
03:06<TiberiusTeng>(actually you still can RUN it without this extension, but you won't have company colors, re-colored strings, etc ... a little meaningless to play :p)
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03:07<ccfreak2k>I see no reason why it shouldn't work in win32, but I haven't tried it.
03:07<ccfreak2k>Have fun. :)
03:08<TiberiusTeng>I think display cards in ~2 years have these support
03:08<TiberiusTeng>ccfreak2k, thanks
03:08<Krol>sorry, wrong channel :)
03:08<TiberiusTeng>and the 'entry level' ones supporting GL_ARB_fragment_program and GL_ATI_draw_buffers cost under USD $50 here in Taiwan now
03:10<ccfreak2k>Also TiberiusTeng, I didn't add sdlgl shit to VC projects, so it'll only build using make unless someone adds them to *.proj.
03:10<TiberiusTeng>ccfreak2k, it will be 'auto-generated' once you put it in sources.list
03:10<planetmaker> Chipsatz-Modell: GMA 950 <-- is probably therefor not possible on my laptop :(
03:10<planetmaker>(intel integrated graphics)
03:11<ccfreak2k>planetmaker, the Intel i900 series supports pixel shaders, so it should support OpenGL's fragment programs as well.
03:11<TiberiusTeng>... would you like to test for us ? I think it can do correct colors, albeit without palette animation.
03:12<TiberiusTeng>seems it supports GL_ARB_fragment_shader but not GL_ATI_draw_buffers ...
03:12<planetmaker>hm... then I should give it a try :)
03:12<TiberiusTeng>but I don't know whether it'll really faster :P
03:12<ccfreak2k>Also TiberiusTeng, I did some testing with sdlgl. SDL_VIDEORESIZE isn't triggered when a pre-baked resolution is chosen, but it IS triggered when the window is resized.
03:12<TiberiusTeng>my 855GME in notebook is not actually faster
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03:13<planetmaker>hehe :)
03:13<TiberiusTeng>ccfreak2k, yes, I'm just thinking to block that dropdown menu in win32gl blitter
03:13<ccfreak2k>I actually had some combination of code that did that, but I dunno why.
03:13<ccfreak2k>You chose a resolution, and it just...didn't do anything.
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03:14<ccfreak2k>Changing between fullscreen and windowed works, though.
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03:15<TiberiusTeng>then it's ok for now I think ...
03:16<TiberiusTeng>if you do want to support resolution changing, you'll need to re-create the context, and release all textures to get them reloaded into the new context.
03:17<TiberiusTeng>I think the way newgrf_gui.cpp reloads all grf's could help :p
03:18<ccfreak2k>I was trying to track down what exactly was different between using pre-baked resolutions and resizing the window.
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03:19<ccfreak2k>Different calls were being made, but I dunno where.
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03:23<ccfreak2k>This is why I like VisualStudio.
03:23<ccfreak2k>I can figure out where a function is. :/
03:30<TiberiusTeng>I think you have Kdevelop or Anjuta at hand ? :p
03:32<ccfreak2k>I have Kdevelop yes, but there's no project files for it.
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03:34<TiberiusTeng>perhaps you can write a script to generate a project file from source.list ...
03:34<TiberiusTeng>that's how OpenTTD deal with VS project files now
03:34<TiberiusTeng>using script/generate or script/generate.vbs
03:35<ccfreak2k>I don't see it.
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03:36<TiberiusTeng>ccfreak2k, if you have time, could you callgrind it again, with some openttdcoop savegame loaded, and zoom out 8x at a city for ~10 minutes ?
03:36<ccfreak2k>Oh, it's in projects/
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03:36<ccfreak2k>Do you have one such openttdcoop saved game?
03:37<TiberiusTeng>I often test with #96
03:38<TiberiusTeng>but your taste may differ :p
03:38<ccfreak2k>I have no preference.
03:38<ccfreak2k>I guess the more "going on" on the screen, the better.
03:38<ccfreak2k>Hmm, I can't reach
03:39<yorick>it says
03:39<ccfreak2k>--- ping statistics ---
03:39<ccfreak2k>48 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 47029ms
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03:40<TiberiusTeng>wait, I'll pack these GRFs and the savegame for you
03:40<ccfreak2k>Also, is 8x the furthest zoom?
03:41<TiberiusTeng>32bpp blitters would easily come down to 2 spf on my computer
03:41<TiberiusTeng>if zoomed out 8x at such a savegame ...
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03:42<TiberiusTeng>extract this one in openttd/data folder
03:43<TiberiusTeng>(you should actually fetch this from openttdcoop website ... but it's emergency now :P)
03:45<ccfreak2k>Any port in a storm.
03:49<ccfreak2k>Which blitters should I test other than opengl and 32bpp-anim?
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03:53<TiberiusTeng>I'm mainly interest in the profiling result of opengl blitter
03:53<TiberiusTeng>because it can direct us for further optimization ...
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03:54<TiberiusTeng>I guess 32bpp-anim would be VERY SLOW on that one ... remember F1 is the pause key :p
03:57<ccfreak2k>You have no idea how excrutiatingly slow valgrind makes openttd run.
03:59<ccfreak2k>It's taking at LEAST ten seconds per frame on 32bpp-anim right now.
03:59<ccfreak2k>Closer to about 30.
04:00<ccfreak2k>I don't think it's moved at all since I turned instrumenting on.
04:00<ccfreak2k>Wait, it just did.
04:00<ccfreak2k>After about two minutes..
04:01<yorick>it helps to turn off animation for that one
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04:05<ccfreak2k>Bear in mind that it's running at about 1500x1100.
04:06<hylje>You now visualize a bear running at you
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04:48<TiberiusTeng>ok, it builds on my mingw environment ...
04:48<TiberiusTeng>time for diff file!
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04:51<ccfreak2k>Does it run in Windows?
04:51<TiberiusTeng>I dunno, too lazy to get/build SDL myself ...
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05:04<ccfreak2k>TiberiusTeng, the profiling is finished.
05:04<ccfreak2k>Instrumentation encompassed only idling at furthest zoom using the saved game you provided.
05:05<ccfreak2k>32bpp-anim and 32bpp-optimized had 48.52 and 50.70 respectively in self in the function DeleteEntryFromSpriteCache.
05:06<ccfreak2k>Both were followed by 15.81 and 16.59 in SpriteLoaderGrf::LoadSprite.
05:07<TiberiusTeng>ahh ... the spritecache is thrashing ...
05:07<ccfreak2k>8bpp-optimized had its highest self in ViewportDoDraw at 19.18.
05:08<ccfreak2k>This was followed by Blitter_8bppOptimized::Draw with 11.23.
05:09<TiberiusTeng>perhaps changing sprite_cache_size in openttd.conf will relieve them a bit (I thik maximum allowed is 16 or so)
05:09<ccfreak2k>sdlgl's highest was ViewportDoDraw, with 21.96, followed by GfxMainBlitter at 10.69.
05:09<TiberiusTeng>8bpp-optimized is still the best performer
05:09<ccfreak2k>If you have Kcachegrind, you can take a look at the data yourself.
05:09<TiberiusTeng>but it won't do 32bpp rendering ... that's its main drawback
05:09<TiberiusTeng>I don't have linux machines around :Q
05:09<TiberiusTeng>but I'll try to gprof myself
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05:14<TiberiusTeng>ccfreak2k, I've updated the post with your sdlgl driver :D
05:14<ccfreak2k>Heh, 1.86 self was spent in one function of fglrx.
05:17<ccfreak2k>Oh btw, I dunno if I told you, but when I added --with-sdlgl to config.whatever, I didn't add any SDL checking code, so it'll happily try to compile it without SDL.
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05:21<TiberiusTeng>hmm ...
05:22<TiberiusTeng>I don't think it's a big problem now ... perhaps just make it depend on the check done by with_sdl.
05:22<TiberiusTeng>since your profiling was capped by DeleteEntryFromSpriteCache and LoadSprite, I think it would be better to change sprite_cache_size and do it again, if you're interested in it ...
05:23<ccfreak2k>I couldn't make sense of code, so I just added it in as a standard option.
05:23<TiberiusTeng>actually 32bpp-optimized/32bpp-anim is very usable if sprite_cache_size is large enough :P
05:23<yorick>it then goes slurping RAM instead of harddisk load
05:23<TiberiusTeng>yep, kind of
05:24<TiberiusTeng>I think I'll move my focus to some signaling work from now ... :p
05:24<TiberiusTeng>and to code for Taiwan Railways Set my friend painted
05:24<yorick>less good :-P
05:26<TiberiusTeng>oh, by the way, what does 'Stolen Trees' and 'Stolen Water' mean? are they NewGRFs ?
05:26<TiberiusTeng>just found it mentioned in the forum ...
05:26<ccfreak2k>Stolen Trees adds more realistic-looking trees.
05:26<TiberiusTeng>then there's no 'built-in' work to do :P
05:28<Ammler>realistic isn't the right word for stolen trees, they are a little bit too big.
05:28<Ammler>but they are indeed nice.
05:29<ccfreak2k>Ok, "more realistic-looking". :)
05:29<Ammler>never heard of stolen water...
05:29<TiberiusTeng>I wonder why they're named 'Stolen' ... stolen from what ?
05:29<ccfreak2k>Neither have I.
05:29<Ammler>stolen from a beta test.
05:30<TiberiusTeng>of a big set ? :Q
05:30<Ammler>SAC gave them out to test and they got around without permission until she released them as stolen trees.
05:30<TiberiusTeng>that doesn't sound good to me ...
05:31<TiberiusTeng>so this is how it goes on ... interesting
05:32<TiberiusTeng>how to change the sprite displayed in the vehicle purchasing view ? with Action 2 ?
05:32<Ammler>but where can I see stolen water?
05:32<TiberiusTeng>I dunno ...
05:32<yorick>Ammler: steal Leppka's water, voila!
05:33<Ammler>OpenGFX didn't afaik
05:33<Ammler>so who did?
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05:43<ccfreak2k>TiberiusTeng, update the post.
05:43<ccfreak2k>The opengl blitter is no longer win32-specific.
05:43<ccfreak2k>Well, not that there's sdlgl.
05:44<TiberiusTeng>ahh yes :)
05:49<ccfreak2k>Also, fullscreen mode DOES work with sdlgl, at least in my testing.
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06:14<ccfreak2k>I redid the instrumentation with a bigger sprite cache and a smaller viewport
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06:24<TiberiusTeng>how does it show ?
06:24<TiberiusTeng>what did it show ? (my bad English)
06:27<ccfreak2k>Blitter_32bppAnim::Draw is top now on 32bpp-anim.
06:27<ccfreak2k>With 14.44.
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08:17<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... should i dare rebooting?
08:18<Eddi|zuHause2>someone pray for me ;)
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08:23<Eddi|zuHause>hm... it forgot to update the grub entry for the new kernel...
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>so glad grub has filename completition ;)
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09:03<fjb>Is there a way to find all trains with an invalid order?
09:04<frosch123>You mean except waiting for the news?
09:04<fjb>Yes. :-)
09:04<frosch123>no - not that I know of.
09:04<fjb>I want to fix it before I get news that something went wrong.
09:05<fjb>I'm rearanging some depots.
09:07<frosch123>You can access the vehicle which have the depot in their order as long as you haven't yet removed it
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09:07<fjb>I know. But I had to remove that depot before I could rebuild the station entry...
09:08<frosch123>You could assign them to a intermediate depot...
09:08<fjb>I will have to look at the orders of every train that goes to that station.
09:09<fjb>Hm, some placeholder order... That could be the solution next time.
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09:11<fjb>Could be also helpful if a vehicle could be part of more than one group at a time.
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09:18<Eddi|zuHause>that'll cause serious headaches ;)
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>like for example with autoreplace
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09:19<Eddi|zuHause>hm... kde4 doesn't like their applications maximized
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>when i maximize an app, then minimize [to tray] or close it and open it again, it's not maximized anymore
09:21<fjb>Hm, that headaches already exists. Think about the all vehicles group...
09:21*fjb is still using kde3.
09:22<fjb>My depots have a tendency to collect trains.
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'm using kde3 as well, but i tested some kde4 apps
09:22<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: Works fine here
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>hunters and collectors, it's the very foundation of humanity ;)
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: which application/environment/action?
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09:24<Eddi|zuHause>hm, ktorrent 3 does not have RSSFeed yet...
09:25<fjb>So depots are human...
09:25<Prof_Frink>Everything/KDE4.1beta2/maximising/minimising/closing/opening/restoring on sessionn start...
09:25<fjb>But they are not using ktorrent... :)
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's because of kwin4 that yours work
09:27<fjb>Hm, 10 trains sitting in a depot, fearing the world outside...
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>i run kde3, when i maximise ksudoku, close it, open it again, it is not maximised and very small size
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>when i maximize ktorrent, minimize to tray, open it again -> not maximized either
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09:35<Eddi|zuHause>i've never seen so many people mentioned in a doctor who intro ;)
09:36<Prof_Frink>Yeah, it was quite impressive
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09:38<Alberth>fjb: trains in a depot can only leave when no other train wants the block where the depot is in.
09:39<fjb>Alberth: I know. The problem with that depot was that the trains got faster into that depot than they had a chance to get out of it.
09:41<Alberth>Lucky you have a finite number of trains! Maybe we should have a RORO depot? :P
09:43<fjb>Roro depots would be fine. Even better if only the locomotive would to to the depot without the long train... But that is another story.
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09:45<Alberth>wagons need servicing too
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09:47<fjb>But not that often.
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10:03<Alberth>What a fun that would be! Bring wagons to platform, decouple locomotive, service it while loading the wagons, attach it at other end, bring wagons to a hill, decouple! Who needa a locomotive to pull wagons to other station? :P
10:08<fjb>Yes, that is what I was thinking of. Or use a second locomotive at the and of the train only to push it up a steep hill.
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10:25<Eddi|zuHause>or switch between electric and diesel/steam traction
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10:30<fjb>A diesel shunter for the mineral loading station or gantry cranes...
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, a Köf III would be lovely ;)
10:33<fjb>Yes. Would be fun to watch.
10:33<fjb>But that would also require station tiles with working switches.
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10:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you would somehow limit the shunting area by special signals
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10:35<Eddi|zuHause>so everything inside that ring would be a "station", the current definition of "station tile" would then become "platform tile"
10:36<fjb>What would that require? A complete rewrite of the the oders system and pathfinder?
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10:37<Eddi|zuHause>not really, the shunting process would need new kind of orders, and the pathfinder would need to be able to turn around on certain places
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>trains can only turn around while in shunting mode
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>and an extension to YAPP path reservations
10:39<Alberth>is a number of wagons without a locomotive not going to be a problem?
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>shunting reservation (two directions)
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>no, wagon groups have orders like "wait for engine [from group] X"
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>and engines have orders like "pick up wagon set Y"
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>the easiest shunting order would be "go backwards (push/pull)"
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>the next would be "go backwards (reposition engine)"
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10:44<Eddi|zuHause>a third use would be "detach wagons, go to engine yard, service/wait for different train, attach wagons"
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10:46<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really have an idea how complicated rearranging freight trains would be with such orders, though
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10:53<@peter1138>write it
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11:01<fjb>Really, sounds good. Write it. I will definitely use it.
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's an insanely complex subject :p
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11:03<Doorslammer|BRSet>:D Did I hear unhitching?
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11:14<Linxor[BE]>hello all , ive being busy quit a while now with open ttd , now i started to mod some with the grf files , and i noticed there are not really packs out of it , does any of u guys can give me links to certain sites that provide full working packs?
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11:18<Alberth>Not sure what a "full working pack" is, you know about GRFcrawler?
11:18<Linxor[BE]>well saw that site ^^ thing is there are some things missing in certain packs
11:21<Alberth>There is the GRFpack, but also that is a large collection of GRF files. Everybody picks his own favorite combination
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11:22<Ammler>Linxor[BE]: you can use multiple GRFs
11:23<Linxor[BE]>ye tried to look up on the openttdcoop website but it apears down , any one having a FTP server where i can download multiple files?
11:23<Doorslammer|BRSet>He is missing ECS cargoes it seems guys
11:24<Linxor[BE]>ye i got the picture now , ty for support anyway ^^
11:24<Alberth>well "some things" in "certain packs" covers that :)
11:25<Doorslammer|BRSet>Just thought you would like a specific ;)
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11:27<Alberth>yeh, thought that after pressing enter and seeing the message
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11:29<Doorslammer|BRSet>Directed him to the
11:29<Doorslammer|BRSet>US Set
11:29<Doorslammer|BRSet>But thats the only one I can think of off the top of my head
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11:30<Linxor[BE]>well its just im looking for some new nice improvements that actually work
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11:40<fjb> Most GRFs work well.
11:40<Linxor[BE]>meaning if they work well also complying they are complete :p
11:42<fjb>Define complete.
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11:47<Alberth>what? and denying you the pleasure of finding exciting new combinations of GRFs and hours of exhaustive play-testing? :P
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11:49<Doorslammer|BRSet>He is missing certain cargo types that are needed for ECS and wants to know compatible sets
11:53<Linxor[BE]>making me sweat hours he? :D
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12:00<Alberth>I haven't played with ECS yet, so you are miles ahead of me
12:01<Doorslammer|BRSet>Well, I never have either so...
12:01<Doorslammer|BRSet>Welcome to the ECS-less Club :P
12:05<TiberiusTeng>is there any GRF gurus here? how do I replace the sprite in vehicle purchase window?
12:06<frosch123>cargotype 0xFF
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12:06<TiberiusTeng>thanks, I'll try it now
12:07<TiberiusTeng>action 2 with cargotype 0xFF ?
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12:12<Linxor[BE]>ty for support all :) gtg
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12:13<fjb>GRVTS, LV4, av8, Canset 0.3, UKRTS, DBsetxl + ECS extension and Serbian train set are supporting ECS.
12:13<fjb>There may be even more sets.
12:14<fjb>Oh, too late...
12:15<fjb>How did you know he missed the newcargos feature in some vehicle sets?
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12:17<Doorslammer|BRSet>I asked him what was missing when he originally appeared in #tycoon
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12:17<Doorslammer|BRSet>And it was cargoes normally found in an ECS game
12:17<fjb>Ah, ok. Not complete couls mean anything and nothing.
12:18<Doorslammer|BRSet>Hmmm, he was not very specific I see, but obviously new
12:18<Alberth>fjb: Tnx, I copied them to a file for future examination
12:18<fjb>There is also an ECS extension for NewShips.
12:20<TiberiusTeng>frosch123, made it work, thanks :)
12:20<TiberiusTeng>where did it documented ? I don't think I saw it in newgrf specs @ before ...
12:21<fjb>And remember that the ECS vectors have to be loaded in order of the grf id. And all ECS vectors have to be loaded before any vehicle set gets loaded.
12:22<Doorslammer|BRSet>I imagine our firend will be back, when we can advise on such things :D
12:22<Ammler>fjb: you might want to extend the wiki page:
12:23<TiberiusTeng>frosch123, ok ...
12:24<TiberiusTeng>how about 'push-pull' trains ? I wish to show one sprite in the purchase window instead of two opposite-faced sprites ...
12:24<fjb>Somebody who writes better English then I do should extend that page.
12:24<TiberiusTeng>or two same-side sprites after I overrided it with cargotype 0xFF :Q
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12:25<frosch123>sorry, I have no clue what you are asking :x
12:25<Ammler>fjb: I did already, I don't think you need that much english knowledge :P
12:26*frosch123 though order of ECS vectors does not matter, except TownVector must be the first
12:27<fjb>No, you may get strange effects if you load them out of order.
12:27<TiberiusTeng>frosch123, it now looks like this:
12:27<frosch123>How many sprites did you define in your action1?
12:27<fjb>Cute. What kind og engine is that?
12:28<TiberiusTeng>for the set to display in purchasing window, two. one facing left and one facing right
12:29<TiberiusTeng>fjb, this is the train we're doing:
12:29<frosch123>well yes, but did you only defined those, or did you added some empty sprites for the other directions
12:30<TiberiusTeng>no, I only defined two
12:30<TiberiusTeng>or I should fill up other directions with empty sprites?
12:30<frosch123>Every vehicle has 8 orientations. The sprite is selected by using (direction % num_sprites_in_action1)
12:30<frosch123>You do not need to add real sprites.
12:30<frosch123>A (invalid) pseudo sprite, i.e. a single "00" will suffice.
12:31<frosch123>nforenum will complain, but it is common practice to do so
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12:32<TiberiusTeng>hmm OK
12:33<TiberiusTeng>I saw that japanset only defines 1 sprite for purchasing window ... perhaps it's a single locomotive with vehicle override that creates a trail locomotive.
12:34<Doorslammer|BRSet>Maybe the mail wagon converts to a DVT
12:34<Doorslammer|BRSet>Or similar idea to Class 91 in UKRS
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12:37<Doorslammer|BRSet>Flying visit :S
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12:38<frosch123>TiberiusTeng: The japanes engine I checked does not use "double headed". You only have to buy one engine, but if you attach passenger wagons, the last wagon will look like an engine
12:39<TiberiusTeng>yep, so I misunderstood the way they did it in grf file ...
12:39<frosch123>It is also a difference in game
12:41<TiberiusTeng>I still got two same-direction locomotives after I defined all 8 directions @_@
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12:45<frosch123>the forward sprite is number 7, the backward sprite is number 3
12:45<frosch123>(starting from 1)
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12:47<frosch123>if you need an example, take a look at dbsetxl, sprite 2063 to 2070
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12:47<TiberiusTeng>ahh, just made it work.
12:48<TiberiusTeng>is it required that later sprites should have larger X/Y coordinates in PCX file?
12:50<ccfreak2k>TiberiusTeng, the American trainset does that for passenger coaches, if I'm reading you right.
12:50<ccfreak2k>The coach looks different depending on what locomotive set you attach it to.
12:51<frosch123>TiberiusTeng: It does not matter where your sprites are in the pcx. That info is not saved, as grfs do not know that they were pcxs somewhen
12:52<frosch123>if you encode/decode your grf grfcodec will rearange them as it likes
12:53<frosch123>You can also include sprites from different pcx files into one grf
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13:04<Ammler>why do you delete FS posts?
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13:09<frosch123>who deleted FS posts?
13:09<Ammler>dunno, a link to FS does only output error now.
13:10<frosch123>Like you have rights to view the page :p
13:10<Ammler> linked from here:
13:10<frosch123>IIRC you have to ask dih about that
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13:13*fjb is addicted to YAPP.
13:13<Ammler>thank you frosch123 :-)
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13:16<Ammler>frosch123: you should tell those who closed the post also to delete it from Google cache :-)
13:18<Ammler>fjb: you can go to strike with Eddi|zuHause :-)
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13:35*Ammler is wondering how many other nice patches are just deleted at FS ;-)
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13:38<TiberiusTeng>grfcodec seems do care about positions of sprites in PCX when encoding ...
13:38<TiberiusTeng>or that's because I used wrong compression settings ? I think it's always 01 ...
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>compression setting does not really matter
13:39<frosch123>well grfcodec... IIRC pcx files' width must be a multiple of 8, else very bad things may happen. But maybe it was already fixed.
13:42<TiberiusTeng>frosch123, thank you very much!
13:48<TiberiusTeng>looks like if I don't place sprites in PCX in order, some of them won't make its way into GRF ... hmm
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16:04<ln>end of discussion
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>no it's not
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18:33<joachim>hi. does anyone know how compability between loco/wagon for multiple units is checked in grfs, ie ukrs?
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19:33<@Belugas_Gone>joachim, i'm not able to answer you like right away, but i'd suspect you will find what yuo are looking for in the callback section of TTDPacth's wiki
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19:41<joachim>thanks, i'll look that up
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20:56<joachim>can't find it :/
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22:05<@Belugas>could it be -> ?
22:05<@Belugas>looks like a good candidate to me
22:06<@Belugas> as well, who knows
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 30 00:00:20 2008