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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-07-10

---Logopened Thu Jul 10 00:00:13 2008
---Daychanged Thu Jul 10 2008
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01:16<LA>morning
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05:24<ln>http://halbot.haluze.sk/images/2008-07/4301_zacpa.jpg
05:27<dih>what country is that ln?
05:28<KingJ>Photoshop land?
05:28<MorgyN>that looks like america ;D
05:28<MorgyN>prolly somewhere near LA
05:29<LA>?
05:29<MorgyN>;D
05:29<MorgyN>yes near YOU
05:29<@Rubidium>looks way more photoshopped to me
05:29<MorgyN>YOU CAUSED IT
05:29<MorgyN>I've seen traffic like that on the m6 here in the uk =P
05:29<MorgyN>just takes one accident
05:30<LA>I dont think it's photoshopped
05:30<ln>dih: no idea
05:30<LA>http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/2007/06/17/traffic_jam.jpg
05:31<LA>http://www.saasta.fi/saasta/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/traffic_jam.jpg in moscow
05:31<@Rubidium>LA: then please explain the exact string of 4 vehicles just at the hiehgt of the big house
05:31<@Rubidium>exact same
05:32<@Rubidium>and that the highway starts in the forest at the top end of the image
05:32<LA>heeh
05:32<LA>yep photoshopped
05:32<LA>the cars are all over it identical
05:32<LA>I didn't look into detail
05:36<MorgyN>I blame it on the lack of dynamic sales of cars around moscow during that period \o/
05:36<@peter1138>heh
05:36<@peter1138>yes
05:36<@peter1138>the shadows are all wrong too
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05:38<MorgyN>was floodin on a motorway near me last year, and some friends had to spend overnight in the car =(
05:38<MorgyN>stuck in a jam =(
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05:44<Eddi|zuHause2>i've never seen that bad kind of a traffic jam
05:44<Eddi|zuHause2>cars suck anyway
05:44<Eddi|zuHause2>drive trains ;)
05:44<Eddi|zuHause2>hypnotic parallel lines ftw! ;)
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05:46<MorgyN>if your not carefull it'll begin to moire and all the jammees will get headaches
05:50<@peter1138>hmm
05:50<@peter1138>lcd tv with a contrast ratio of 30000:1? i think not
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05:55-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7E682.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
05:57<rortom>hi all
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06:08<Mchl>hello
06:11<rortom>the openttd ingame bot is finally working :D
06:13<MorgyN>do you ever sleep? ;D
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06:15<dih>rortom: what in-game bot?
06:17<Noldo>maybe something like Brianetta's autopilot
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06:20<rortom>dih: i could show you :)
06:21<MorgyN>but you'd have to kill him?
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06:27<Brianetta>In-game bot, to me, speaks of AI
06:28<Brianetta>an AI player
06:28<Eddi|zuHause2>that would be kind of surprising, given the context
06:29<rortom>no, its just like the autopilot, just different :)
06:29<Brianetta>Eddi: I think in terms of other multiplayer games, where bots are players
06:29<rortom>i coded a IRC bridge for it last night :)
06:30<Brianetta>Which language?
06:32-!-Forked is now known as kjetil-
06:32-!-kjetil- is now known as Forked
06:32<rortom>language?
06:33<rortom>also that bot joins as a spectator
06:33<Brianetta>You coded something
06:33<Brianetta>You must have coded in a language
06:33<MorgyN>python
06:34<Brianetta>Ah (:
06:34<Brianetta>Connecting as a spectator is impressive.
06:35<rortom>it is working well now :D
06:35<rortom>and the bot sees everything
06:35<MorgyN>EVERYTHING
06:35<rortom>so lots more possibilities than coupling to the console
06:37<dih>it joins the game as a spec?
06:37<dih>how that?
06:37<dih>did you patch ottd?
06:38<rortom>no
06:38<rortom>i emulate the ottd behavior
06:38<rortom>means recoded the protocol in python
06:38<rortom>so it works on any server
06:38<rortom>:D
06:38<MorgyN>interesting, could you easily knock up it mirroring the traffic to other connections?
06:38<rortom>yes :)
06:39<MorgyN>because then you have the first openttdtv =P
06:39<rortom>yep :D
06:39<rortom>lots of stuff possible with it :)
06:39<rortom>like a client could connect to a proxy bot
06:39<rortom>instead of the server
06:39<@Rubidium>rortom: it can't
06:40<rortom>mh why?
06:40<@Rubidium>because you need to download the map, keep all changes since the download and then send that to the client
06:40<@Rubidium>the client has then to execute all that
06:40<rortom>sure
06:40<rortom>the bbot does that
06:40<ccfreak2k>Isn't that why the game pauses when someone joins
06:40<ccfreak2k>?
06:40<dih>how does it stay connected... you need to send the correct seeds....
06:40<@Rubidium>which for a map running like 12 months would take several minutes to join
06:41<rortom>yes, the bot downloads the map and sends out ACK's
06:41<Noldo>what about when the client connects to the bot
06:42<rortom>it could be nice for coop play
06:42<rortom>since one bot = one company
06:42<Noldo>but why?
06:42<dih>Rubidium: can a spectator not desync?
06:42<@Rubidium>still, after a few game days joining via the bot is going to be very annoying
06:42<rortom>dont know ;)
06:42<rortom>:|
06:42<@Rubidium>dih: clients themselves apparently check for desyncs
06:43<MorgyN>Rubidium: depends
06:43<MorgyN>You coudl do it like journals
06:43<MorgyN>snapshot and journal
06:43<@Rubidium>MorgyN: you only have the snapshot of the initial join of the bot
06:44<@Rubidium>and the journal are all commands that the bot has received
06:44<MorgyN>take a savegame very 5 mins or so? then replay journals
06:44<@Rubidium>and the bot can't make a savegame because it doesn't run OpenTTD itself
06:44<MorgyN>theres no reason that can't be coded tho
06:44<rortom>^
06:44<MorgyN>it has all the data, to assemble a new savegame
06:45<MorgyN>then just keep deltas between saves
06:45<@Rubidium>MorgyN: yeah...
06:45<@Rubidium>please write a piece of for example python that 'understands' the commands and does the right thing to the savegame
06:45<MorgyN>I'll let rortom consider doing that =)
06:45<rortom>:|
06:45<@Rubidium>then I'll change one line and you can start fixing your bot
06:46<rortom>ok
06:46<MorgyN>I'm just sayign it's feasable.
06:46<Noldo>if that is the functionality needed it then it would be much more productive to make special client that is also a server
06:46<rortom>im just trying to improve something with the bot
06:46<rortom>like the irc bridge or stats logging
06:46<@Rubidium>MorgyN: it is possible, it is not feasible
06:47<Ammler>what infos does a spectator get, which you can't have from the save itself?
06:47<rortom>mh?
06:47<dih>Rubidium: i thought that check was done by the server, requesting a seed and the client responding with one, and if they dont match desync
06:47<Brianetta>rortom: With rcon, you can basically make autopilot redundant.
06:47<@Rubidium>Ammler: the commands that normal clients send to the server
06:48<@Rubidium>and all internals of OpenTTD ofcourse
06:49-!-Third [~Third@p57A6C0F6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
06:49<Third>Hallo
06:49<Brianetta>Don't get me wrong, I would be over the moon to see something do what autopilot does, only better
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06:49<Brianetta>I'd probably run it myself
06:50<Third>Hello fooks kan you help me?
06:50<Brianetta>w t fook?
06:50<Noldo>Brianetta: you need a translation?
06:50<Brianetta>Noldo: I think I might just obstinately misconstrue everything
06:51<Brianetta>Third, you do not need to PM me
06:51<Noldo>Third: not promising anything without knowing the question
06:51<Brianetta>In fact, doing so is wasting your time
06:52<Third>sorry... my english is not so good bat i wanted to ask you kan you help my to play TTD online?
06:54<Third>hello
06:54<ln>hello
06:55<Third>kan you help me?
06:55<ln>don't ask if someone can help, just ask the question.
06:56<ln>someone will either answer, or not.
06:56<Noldo>you have to be a bit more specific about the problems you are facing
06:56<Brianetta>Third: Be more specific. Tell us what you are trying to do, and what is happening.
06:59<Third>ok... i'm playing the Open TTD and i wanted to play in internet bu i dont know how to make it work!!!
06:59<rortom>mh so someone want to test the bot?
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07:00<@Rubidium>Third: what version?
07:00<@Rubidium>did you click multiplayer and then list servers?
07:01<@Rubidium>uhm "find servers"
07:02<Brianetta>Third: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Multiplayer
07:02<Brianetta>Tell us where it goes wrong
07:02-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77962.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
07:02<Third>0.5.3-rc3
07:02<Brianetta>There might not be any servers for that version
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>you should update to a current stable (0.6.1)
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>most servers use that
07:03-!-fmauNeko [~fmauNeko@86.54.71-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd
07:03<Third>where i kan udate it?
07:04<fmauNeko>hello :)
07:04-!-Tiberius_ [Tiberius@125-230-88-4.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #openttd
07:04<Brianetta>Third: www.openttd.org
07:05<fmauNeko>i built openttd nightlies for openSUSE :https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=openttd-svn&project=home%3AfmauNeko
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07:08<Ammler>fmauNeko: that page needs registering...
07:08<fmauNeko>hmm, right :p
07:09<fmauNeko>http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/fmauNeko/openSUSE_11.0/repodata/
07:10<fmauNeko>packages for 10.2, 10.3, Factory, SLES 9 and SLE 10 are building too
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07:12<MorgyN>is there a build farm you're using?
07:14<fmauNeko>hmm, i use the opensuse build system
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07:16<Ammler>fmauNeko: if I would install openttd with your repo, do I lose my installed stable?
07:16<fmauNeko>hmm, yeah
07:16<MorgyN>oh interested
07:16<MorgyN>interesting
07:16<MorgyN>they do fedora too
07:17<|404NotFound|>http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service#For_Developers
07:17<fmauNeko>yeah, they use yum repos
07:17<MorgyN><3 yum
07:17<fmauNeko>do you wanna me add fedora repos ?
07:17<MorgyN>could do with a 9 on there
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>fmauNeko: maybe you should have openttd-nightly not interfear with openttd-stable packages, so you can have both installed
07:18<MorgyN>Not for me, thanks tho =)
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>not that i would install either...
07:19<Third>hey kan somebody speak german?
07:19<MorgyN>yeah seperate repos tbh, if you can afford the bw =)
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>english please
07:19<Third>???
07:20<MorgyN>A repos of stable would be most welcome
07:20<|404NotFound|>I would do that.
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>openttd stable is available from packman repositories for suse, i believe
07:21<|404NotFound|>Eddi|zuHause: Also apt-get for Ubuntu/deb
07:23<@Rubidium>but openttd is already apt-get-able for new ubuntus and (very) new debians
07:26<Eddi|zuHause> | Packman Repository 11 | openttd | 0.6.1-111.pm.1 | i586
07:27<|404NotFound|>Rubidium: But old version.
07:27<@Rubidium>if 0.6.1 is old, then yes
07:27<@Rubidium>http://packages.qa.debian.org/o/openttd.html
07:29<MorgyN>how do they get around having the graphics files
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need the graphics files to install it
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>only to play it
07:31<|404NotFound|>indeed
07:31<|404NotFound|>and there easily obtainable via google
07:31<|404NotFound|>:P
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07:38<Ammler>fmauNekAway: quite a lot openttd builder: https://build.opensuse.org/main/search_result?search_text=openttd&x=0&y=0
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07:39<fmauNekAway>Ammler: the most part is official packages for different suse revisions
07:40<fmauNekAway>aah
07:40<fmauNekAway>there are others :p
07:41<fmauNekAway>pjoul is deprecated
07:41<fmauNekAway>games is official
07:41<fmauNekAway>and CobrA_SK is empty :)
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08:06<@peter1138>openttd-0.7+svn-1.1 :o
08:07<@peter1138>if it is an stripped build then it should not be there
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08:11<@peter1138>-n
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08:46<fjb>Hello
08:46<Lakie>Hi
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09:03<DJNekkid>quick question to some dev, is callback 36 property 17 (purchise price) supported for wagons?
09:04<Forked>lo dj :)
09:04<DJNekkid>hi Forked
09:07<Lakie>It might be in OpenTTD but is most defently notin TTDpatch.
09:07<Lakie>The Wiki should have that information
09:11<DJNekkid>it is not in patch, that i know
09:14<DJNekkid>however, running cost factor, power, weight and cargo capacity is supported
09:14<DJNekkid>for wagons
09:14<blathijs>If it would not be in OpenTTD, and is not in TTDPatch, then why does it even exist? :-p
09:14<DJNekkid>it can be used for engines :)
09:15<DJNekkid>for example could a cabless "b"-unit for an engine be cheaper then the one with a cab
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09:25<@peter1138>it is
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09:28<DJNekkid>peter1138: it is supported for wagons?
09:29<@peter1138>14:25 @peter1138> it is
09:29<DJNekkid>:)
09:30<DJNekkid>were just wondering if that were pointed at me, or something else :)
09:36<@Belugas>hello boyz and menz
09:37<DJNekkid>hi Belugas
09:40<SmatZ>hi boy
09:40<fjb>Hm, there is no girl in here?
09:41<fjb>Hi Belugas
09:42*Rubidium wonders whether a boy can already have a boy
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09:42<@Belugas>could very well be, Rubidium, depending on how old that boy is :)
09:42<@Rubidium>it probably can though, as a (small) girl can have an (even smaller) girl too
09:43<SmatZ>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers I think so
09:45<DJNekkid>i think almost all of thoose cases had the word "rape" in them
09:45<DJNekkid>or arrest(ed)
09:48*dih smirks
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09:51<DJNekkid>well peter1138... are you sure that CB36 type 17 is supported for wagons, not just engines?
09:52<DJNekkid>because it dont seem to work, but things like weight, power and capacity do :)
09:53<DJNekkid>because, i cant really see why the callback should fail either, it's exactly the same syntax as the rest...
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10:36<fmauNeko>!password
10:36<fmauNeko>oops
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11:11<Mchl>why some entries are repeated in openttd.cfg ?
11:12<Mchl>or is it possible, that if multiple ottd copies use one cfg file, they write their settings twice?
11:13<@Rubidium>yes, recent trunk and 0.6-ish will do that
11:13<@Rubidium>cause the format for trunk changed quite a lot
11:14<Mchl>ok, so this might be due to my using both 0.6.1 and nightly and self compiled patched version
11:15<@Rubidium>not might be, it is
11:15<@Rubidium>and you've started 0.6.x-ish last
11:15<Mchl>...due to my using both... <- not both... more :P
11:16<Mchl>yes, I guess stable was the last I started ;)
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12:29<@Belugas>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=38383 yeah :)
12:29<@Belugas>"Start of game in 19th century (1892)"
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12:33<fjb>Engine pools are giving the road vehicle development a real boost.
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12:40<Ammler>difference between: http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/details.php?do=details&id=227 and http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/details.php?do=details&id=226 ?
12:41<Ammler>I assume nothing, just double saved...
12:41<@Belugas>nope
12:41<@Belugas>description is different
12:42<@Belugas>one is on dos, the other on win fils
12:42<@Belugas>category specified on one, not on the other
12:42<@Belugas>download/discussion links not the same
12:43*Belugas sends glasses to Ammler
12:43<Ammler>:-)
12:44<Doorslammer|OTTD>I want them back after youve finished with them ;)
12:45<Ammler>the glasses don't help, you can have them :-)
12:46<Ammler>imo, 227 is just a corrected 226 :-/
12:46<@Belugas>indeed
12:46<@Belugas>and it's why it's not a double saved :P
12:46<Ammler>ah ok :P
12:47<Ammler>is there another update recently happen with GRFs I might have missed for the new GRFPack?
12:48<@Belugas>aren't they on a svn server?
12:49<Ammler>yep, they are
12:49<Ammler>but only, if I commit them :-)
12:49<Ammler>or someone else from us.
12:49<Ammler>sadly no GRFAuthor does commit them self :-)
12:51<fjb>I would. :-)
12:51<Ammler>you are very welcome !
12:51<Ammler>I would really like to play your GRFs :-)
12:52<fjb>Sad thing is I didn't make any yet.
12:52<Ammler>I am already at ID 7 :P
12:53<Ammler>but only very easy ones.
12:54<fjb>My ideas are too complicated. And I can not draw.
12:54<Ammler>ups, that remindes me of committing another GRF :-)
12:55<Ammler>well, I would say, there are more guys, who like to draw for you, then coding.
12:55<fjb>Better do it before it's too late.
12:55<Ammler>like the modern stations, which XeryusTC disconntinued...
12:55<Ammler>:P
12:56<fjb>I'm too lazy to type hex codes. If god wanted man to write hex codes he would have given hin sixteen fingers.
12:56<Ammler>(away anyway)
12:56<Ammler>:-)
12:56<Ammler>use the compiler from Eddi|zuHause
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>you could always donate me some time to finish my compiler
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>time=money :p
12:57<Ammler>did belugas get so much money?
12:58<fjb>I'm thinking about my own kind of compiler. But not sure about the syntax yet.
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>that's good, because you could put your syntax in mine, i have an outline for everything else ;)
13:00<fjb>Hm, putting containers into containers...
13:00<@Belugas>mmh?
13:00<@Belugas>money?
13:00<@Belugas>where?
13:01<Ammler>hmm, 170 GRFs in 7.1
13:02<Ammler>we might need to think about trashing some...
13:02<fjb>I bet somebody tries to load them all at once.
13:02<Ammler>well, that is the most asked question :-)
13:02<Ammler>how can I load them ALL
13:03<fjb>Oh no... Could you install a stupidity test?
13:04<Ammler>http://svn.openttdcoop.org/grfpack/trunk/README.txt <-- should we write it there?
13:04<Ammler>well, nobody is reading it anyway..
13:04-!-raimar3 [~hawk@p5489CF45.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:04<fjb>Write "No idiots allowed" on the download page.
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13:06<@Belugas>[13:00] <fjb> Oh no... Could you install a stupidity test? <-- success garanteed!
13:06<fjb>:-)
13:06<@Belugas>plus, they don't even know what they are loading...
13:06<@Belugas>I WANT MORE!!!
13:06<@Belugas>more of what?
13:06<@Belugas>dunno
13:06<@Belugas>just MOOOOOR!!
13:07<fjb>Could you not make a fake grf that exhausts the sprite limit?
13:08<@Belugas>http://devs.openttd.org/~belugas/patches/GimmeMore.jpg
13:08<@Belugas>muwhahaha!!
13:09<Ammler>"Not all GRFs are used simultaneously on our servers." <-- maybe we should add: "because it is stupid!"
13:09<fjb>Yeah...
13:09<fjb>Yes, great idea.
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13:10<@Belugas>would not be a valid reason...
13:11<@Belugas>"Because during config interchange, only 62 different grf entries can be sent"
13:11<@Belugas>would be a bit more... constructive
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13:12<Ammler>Belugas: can I use that without credit? :-)
13:12<Ammler>oh, well, I could quote a dev...
13:14*fjb is at 43 grfs in the current game... Oh, oh...
13:15<@Belugas>you can, but i doubt it is well written
13:15<@Belugas>you can add:
13:15<Ammler>fjb: we already reached the limit at ps
13:16<@Belugas>"so to prevent reaching that limit, verify what each of the grfs do give you ingame and choose wisely"
13:16<Ammler>I added all vehicle grfs :-)
13:16<@Belugas>that would even be better
13:16<Ammler>but that didn't work :-)
13:17<fjb>I'm using ECS, some of the OpenGFX stuff and some more vehicle grfs.
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13:34<fjb>Sebian tram set sets you currency to Dinares... :-(
13:34<Ammler>:-)
13:35<@Belugas>yeah :D thatis called newcurrencies!
13:35<TiberiusTeng>62 at config interchange? is this easily hackable ?
13:35<@Belugas>TiberiusTeng, i cannot tell
13:35<TiberiusTeng>seems another magic number ... :P
13:35<TiberiusTeng>I
13:35<@Belugas>but i think it would be pretty much of a big job
13:35<Ammler>fjb: not here
13:36<Ammler>the OTTD Remix?
13:36<fjb>Yes
13:36<TiberiusTeng>I've hacked OTTD to use dynamically-allocated file slots to do something like 300 GRFs here ...
13:36<fjb>:-)
13:36<@Belugas>that number might be related to somehting somewhere with a structure
13:36<TiberiusTeng>but if the file slots isn't the only bottleneck .....
13:36<@Belugas>nope
13:36<TiberiusTeng>(MSVC runtime hardcoded the open file limit at 2048 ...)
13:38<TiberiusTeng>but plain CreateFile can easily do, say, 20k files
13:38<Mirrakor>Therefore: Don't use MSVC
13:39<TiberiusTeng>nah, just recompile your CRT, Visual Studio have CRT source included :p
13:39<Ammler>TiberiusTeng: that won't be network safe, I assume...
13:40<TiberiusTeng>uint8: Amount of GRFs
13:41<TiberiusTeng>easily hackable I think :P
13:41<@Rubidium>yup, very easily
13:41<@Rubidium>just need to add jumbo packets to the internet though
13:42<TiberiusTeng>I think it's already using TCP ...
13:42<@Rubidium>I think it isn't
13:42<@Rubidium>but then, I could be wrong
13:42<@Belugas>i think Rubidium knows waht he's talking about
13:42<@Belugas>i'll trust him more than me, in fact :)
13:42<TiberiusTeng>DEF_SERVER_SEND_COMMAND_PARAM(PACKET_SERVER_CHECK_NEWGRFS)(NetworkTCPSocketHandler *cs)
13:42<@Belugas>on that matter
13:43<@Rubidium>that's a boring function
13:43<@Rubidium>and not the real interesting one in this case
13:44<TiberiusTeng>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Network_Protocol
13:44<TiberiusTeng>IIRC the UDP's only used in server advertisement for now
13:44<@Rubidium>yup
13:44<@Rubidium>which occasionally sends the same set of NewGRFs
13:45<@Rubidium>and with a few more NewGRFs the packet overflows
13:45<TiberiusTeng>good design.
13:46<@Rubidium>lol...
13:46<@Rubidium>as if *anything* is written with no limit in mind
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>640k ought to be enough for anyone
13:46<TiberiusTeng>hey, it even runs on a Nintendo DS! :D
13:47<fjb>640k ip packet size... :-)
13:48<TiberiusTeng>I thought a 'server count' limit was mentioned few days ago ...
13:48<@Rubidium>yup
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that one is for the package reply to "list all servers", the grf limit is the reply for "get server info"
13:49<TiberiusTeng>DEF_UDP_RECEIVE_COMMAND(Server, PACKET_UDP_CLIENT_GET_NEWGRFS)
13:49<TiberiusTeng>seems not so easily hackable, indeed ...
13:49<@Rubidium>easily hackable
13:49<@Rubidium>getting it to work properly is something else
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>different nuances of "hack" ;)
13:50<TiberiusTeng>ahh then I hope someone will hack it someday eventually :P
13:50<TiberiusTeng>looks like it already considered SEND_MTU to a degree
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, technically, you just need to add a packet count and a packet number to the packets, so the client can find out if it should expect more... if some go missing, the client needs to request them again, no need for a TCP stack that way
13:53<TiberiusTeng>the comment for NETWORK_MAX_GRF_COUNT says it's related to number of handles OpenTTD can open
13:54<TiberiusTeng>and the UDP GRF packet protocol already divides the list to comply with SEND_MTU
13:54<TiberiusTeng>therefore it looks like a easy hack, after all ...
13:54<@Rubidium>good luck with getting your 80 GRF server to advertise
13:55<@Rubidium>*properly*
13:55<Ammler>hmm, I would say, it is more difficulty to have 80 GRFs running together.
13:57<TiberiusTeng>advertise only sends WELCOME_MESSAGE, Version, server_port
13:57<TiberiusTeng>so it doesn't look like a problem ...
13:57<TiberiusTeng>well, but I feel it's another 'unwelcomed'
13:57<TiberiusTeng>patch after all :P
13:59<@Rubidium>TiberiusTeng: you have no clue how advertising works it seems
14:00<@Belugas>who cares about making it properly... MORE!!!!
14:00<@Belugas>that's all that counts, after all :)
14:01<@Rubidium>just a hint: on advertising the master server checks whether the server is online by fetching the game info of the server. If that fails the server won't be advertised.
14:01<@Rubidium>you want to add more info to the game info packet which is going to make it too big
14:01<@Rubidium>i.e. > 1460 bytes
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14:02<TiberiusTeng>if you mean PACKET_UDP_CLIENT_DETAIL_INFO then it didn't send anything related to NewGRFs ...
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14:03<TiberiusTeng>Rubidium, I don't understand ... you don't want this kind of functionalty get implemented? I understand you know more about OpenTTD networking than me, but are you trying to help, or to discourage me?
14:04<@Rubidium>more the PACKET_UDP_CLIENT_FIND_SERVER packet
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14:05<@Rubidium>and the PACKET_UDP_CLIENT_FIND_SERVER packet can currently use up to 1441 bytes (SEND_MTU is for OTTD 1460 because of stupid routers and such) and sending data of a single NewGRF more is 20 bytes
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14:06<@Rubidium>which leaves you with -1 free byte if you add a 63th NewGRF and max out the server name, map name and revision string
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14:08<@Rubidium>so I'm not discouraging you, I'm just telling that there's no space for it in the network protocol
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14:10<ArmEagle>I'm looking at all those 32bpp sprites.. and I wonder where 'the' list with all objects and sprite IDs can be found.. :)
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14:13<TiberiusTeng>well, so it need to handle this with fragmented packets like PACKET_UDP_SERVER_NEWGRFS ...
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14:19<@Rubidium>yes-ish... *but*
14:20<@Rubidium>that'll make clients suspectible for DOS attacks
14:20<@Rubidium>as you need to have all server information before you may actually show it in the server list
14:20<fjb>Fragmented packets don't pass every firewall.
14:20<@Rubidium>that too
14:24<@Rubidium>that'll make requesting server info even more floody and it'll get killed by even more firewalls
14:24<@Rubidium>anyhow
14:24<MorgyN>you could argue that about any packetsize tho, if someone has the mtu down lower than expected anywhere in the chain you can get fragmentation, you have to assume it'll be handled correctly at the protocol level
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14:24*Rubidium is gone for the evening
14:26<fjb>MorgyN: You could. But few connections have a MTU lower than 1460 bytes.
14:29<SpComb>fjb: PACKET_UDP_SERVER_NEWGRFS uses user-level fragmentation
14:31<fjb>Have fun with missing packets then.
14:39<SpComb>fjb: looks like it doesn't really bother
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14:41<fjb>The horse tram is fun.
14:41<hylje>:o
14:42<SpComb>my coroutine-using C code is segfaulting when I call a function :<
14:42<hylje>:<
14:42<hylje>good luck finding the bug
14:42<SpComb>in addition to things like accidentally freeing your own stack and then having libc segfault
14:43<SpComb>and with "when I call a function" I mean "when I call a function", not "while a certain function is executing"
14:43<@Belugas>"Function, youhou... FUNCTION!!!"
14:44<@Belugas>"Hello? Is this Function?"
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14:45<fjb>No answer from Function...
14:45-!-fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway
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14:46<@Belugas>Ready ? Aim! FIRE!!
14:46<@Belugas>and here is another function executed :(
14:46<@Belugas>R.I.P.
14:46<fjb>Poor function.
14:46<SpComb>http://pb.paivola.fi/735 <-- it's segfaulting when trying to access some var on its stack
14:47<SpComb>starting to think that perhaps coroutines aren't really such a great idea after all
14:47<@peter1138>FUNCTION!
14:48<SpComb>o right, I think I figured out why
14:59*fjb votes for server advertizing via SCTP.
14:59*Belugas wonders if there would be someone willing to grab all the infos about the "no more then 62 grfs" discussions and port it to the wiki...
15:01<@peter1138>mmm, cheesy mash
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15:09<TiberiusTeng>I was thinking about a "GRF relinker" that merges many GRFs into one, with proper sprite ID relinking ...
15:09<@peter1138>heh
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15:11<Ammler>TiberiusTeng: problem will be distributing...
15:12<TiberiusTeng>and complaints from GRF authors, etc ...
15:12<TiberiusTeng>well, just thinking.
15:12<Ammler>yeah, sadly but that will happen..
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15:13<@Belugas>more or less violently indeed
15:22<planetmaker>[21:09] <TiberiusTeng> I was thinking about a "GRF relinker" that merges many GRFs into one, with proper sprite ID relinking ... <--- is that something which could be done online by OpenTTD?
15:23<TiberiusTeng>I don't think so ...
15:23<TiberiusTeng>do you want your servers feeding the entire GRF set to clients, every time when they connected? :>
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15:27<Wolf01>hello
15:28<fjb>Hello Wolf01
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15:40<fjb>Oh, oh, in versions and network games... :-)
15:40*fjb is reading the german forum.
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16:05<SpComb>or you could just do server advertising by having each server keep a persistent connection open to the masterserver
16:06<SpComb>*TCP connection
16:10<Eddi|zuHause><TiberiusTeng> I was thinking about a "GRF relinker" that merges many GRFs into one, with proper sprite ID relinking ... <- that is insane... imagine a program-relinker that would merge TTD and SimCity (binaries), or Windows and Linux kernels...
16:11<SpComb>a grf backend to gcc
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>that has nothing to do with what he said
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>and that would be totally possible...
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16:39<@Belugas>night guys. happy hacking or whatever you're doing
16:39<Wolf01>night
16:44<rortom>gn8\
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16:53<ln>what's a good Wii game?
16:53<Wolf01>wii sports
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>Raymonds Raving Rabbits :p
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>try to avoid Dragonball Z though ;)
16:56<Wolf01>I'm blocked at mr.satan's vs c-18 match :(
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17:17<Wolf01>'night
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18:16<ln>but i already have wii sports.
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20:00<fjb>The new road vehicles only ai is not able to count.
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20:01<Eddi|zuHause>whatever you mean with "new" and "ai"
20:04<fjb>Trunk has an alternate road vehicle only ai for some time.
20:07<Digitalfox>good night everyone :)
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20:17<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it's there for over two years already
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>and totally obsolete
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>if that fits your defintion of "new", then it's alright ;)
20:20<fjb>Ho do you differentiate it from the original ai when not calling it new? And thinking about the age of TTD it is new.
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20:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, considering the age of the earth, the Atari ST is new ;)
20:21<+glx>its name is newai
20:22<fjb>:-P
20:24<fjb>That ai often tries to link two roads at a bridge head. It sees the bridge haed as an usual road tile, not as a special where you can not link two roads.
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>good luck with getting that one fixed :p
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 11 00:00:40 2008