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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-07-21

---Logopened Mon Jul 21 00:00:13 2008
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04:10<Lachie>anyone here proficient at bash scripting?
04:10<blathijs>a bit
04:10<Celestar>a bit
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04:12<Lachie>I'm after a script for Linux that will change the color depth to 16bit, restart x server then run a program. then change dept back to 24 and restart x when it's done
04:12<Lachie>simply two scripts, one that will change it to 16 and restart X, the other changes to 24 and restarts X
04:12*Celestar goes replacing 303 Trains by Maglevs
04:13<blathijs>Lachie: The easy way would be to have two config files that you manually create instead of changing the config file automatically
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04:14<Lachie>like an xorg.conf1 and xorg.conf2 and mv them to xorg.conf on demand?
04:14<Lachie>not a bad approach
04:14<Celestar>hm ..
04:15<blathijs>Lachie: You can probably pass -ConfigFile or whatever option to X
04:15<Celestar>can't you switch color depth on-the-fly meanwhile? I know it works with resolution ...
04:15<Lachie>Celestar: nope
04:15<Celestar>blathijs: that does exist, even for the user
04:15<Lachie>atleast not with my hardware
04:15<blathijs>Yeah, I was just looking at xrandr for that
04:15<blathijs>Lachie: Tried xrandr?
04:15<Lachie>what's that?
04:16*Lachie googles
04:16<blathijs>Thoug xrandr doesn't seem to list any options for changing bpp
04:17<blathijs>I see some references to it on google, but that's only error messages from wine that it is not supported
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04:19<Celestar>why does auto-copy-order not work from rail to maglev?
04:22<Celestar>I copy a savegame from one box to another, and the total money redouce from 15 billion to 77 million?!
04:23<Noldo>same currency?
04:24<Celestar>sorry correction: it starts with $0 on the other box
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04:32<Celestar> <= weird
04:33<Gekz_>you got pwned
04:34<Gekz_>your game, it ruined your fun
04:34<Gekz_>games arnet meant to ruin fun
04:34<Gekz_>give it the smacks
04:35<Celestar>do you have anything productive to say? :P
04:38<Celestar>ok :P
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04:47<@peter1138>Hmm, 2015... inflation adjusted already?
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05:52<Celestar>peter1138: hm ... I recomiled and it works now O_o
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06:29<Celestar>hm ..
06:30<Celestar>the TR09's capacity in DBSetXL is grossly exaggerated
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06:40<@peter1138>Is that a luxury one?
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06:51<Celestar>no. the maglev
06:51<Celestar>120 pax per carriage
06:52<Celestar>sounds more like cattle class to me :P
06:54<@peter1138>Maybe they're supposed to be very long carriages ;)
06:57<Rubidium_>tardis class?
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07:07<Celestar>oh :P
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07:13<planetmaker>he. I mixed up Tardis with Tharsis :P
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07:16<Digitalfox>Anything planned for raising the speed limit of road vehicles and ships ( the famous 127KM/h ) in open, so NewGRF can add for example a road vehicle that will reach 200KM/h?
07:16<planetmaker> <- that one :P
07:17<Celestar>Digitalfox: where do road vehicles go > 127km/h (apart from PVs)
07:20<Digitalfox>Celestar while playing open in 2030.. I expect from 20 years from now, that road vehicles will have a much better AI and you will travel faster and safer ( that means you won't touch the drive wheel, the computer does everything ;) )
07:20<ln>Digitalfox: it's more likely that in 20 years the speed limits are lower than now.
07:20<Celestar>Digitalfox: I hope so, but I don'T see that (yet) happening (=
07:21<Digitalfox>So >127KM/h seems slow :(
07:21<Celestar>ln: I fear that you're right
07:22<Eddi|zuHause2>even if technically possible, there are still laws against trucks going >80km/h
07:22<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: that's germany.
07:22<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: they go faster in other countries
07:22<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, but not unlimited ;)
07:23<Celestar>oh damn people, use planes :P
07:23<Eddi|zuHause2>i know no other countries where cars are allowed to go >130km/h at all
07:23<Digitalfox>This of topic, but one of things I hate more on speed lower defenders is that they think all cars are equal.. When I drive my Renault R5 120 KM/h seems too much fast for that car.. But when I driver my Audi A3 140 KM/h seems a nice speed for driving in Autoway
07:23<Noldo>I thing 120km/h is the highest speed limit here
07:24<Celestar>When I driver our 530d at 140km/h, it feels like sleeping
07:24<Celestar>revs at around 1900 :P
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07:25<ln>Digitalfox: Still, when you hit an object with your Audi A3, your body has the same limit of deceleration it can tolerate without fatal damage to internal organs.
07:25<Celestar>ln: well, you're more likely to survive a crash in an A3 at N km/h than in a R5 and N/2 km/h
07:25<Digitalfox>Celestar that's what i felt and feel every time I drive on autoway, but it's the law :(
07:26<Celestar>there must be a reason why the number of casualties p.a. on German roads is constantly decreasing
07:27<Celestar>and it's neither better drivers nor less accidents
07:27<Celestar>nor is it better roads
07:27<Digitalfox>better cars?
07:27<Celestar>Digitalfox: yes.
07:27<Celestar>this day and age, you can often walk away from an 70km/h head-on crash
07:27<Noldo>bad luck for the insurance companies
07:27<Digitalfox>I also think the same :)
07:27<Celestar>Noldo: not really, the number of accidents is constantly increasing
07:28<Noldo>injured people cost more that dead ones
07:28<Celestar>Noldo: depends on the injury P
07:28<Noldo>also the cars are more expensive and more often not repairable
07:29<Celestar>Frostregen: plus consider the traffic density of 1970 with that of 2007...
07:29<ln>max(Sweden) = 110, max(Bjarniland) = 130, max(Finland) = 120
07:30<Celestar>max(Celestarland) = c
07:30<Eddi|zuHause2>what max speed does a Regio Citadis have?
07:30<Noldo>it was bit odd to drive in sweden because the limits are 110,90,70 etc. while 120,100,80 here
07:30<Eddi|zuHause2>(Tram/Railway hybrid)
07:31<Frostregen>@Celestar: Maybe this is a proove for the contrary. Look at the average speed on your way back home through rush-hour traffic ;)
07:31<Frostregen>today you cannot even reach deadly speeds ;)
07:31<ln>Noldo: and a 110 in sweden can be either a motorway or a narrow road.
07:31<Digitalfox>If you drive a good car that has nice crash resistance and technology ( yes not everybody can buy one, it's the world we have ;) ) you have a greater % of survival in car crash even if at 200KM/h..
07:32<Celestar>Frostregen: well, I'm trying to drive ahead of the rush-hour, but ok. I'm usually not exceeding 110km/h on the highways during my daily commute
07:32<Noldo>and that is the most excelent reason to go the same % faster
07:32<Celestar>on long range trips .. that's different
07:32<Celestar>150-160km/h cruise speed
07:33<ln>The problem is that as the safety of cars gets better, people also drive more unsafely because they have the feeling they are on a safe vehicle.
07:33<Digitalfox>I have seen a A3 from a friend ( before buying mine I was thinking on buying his ) cut in half by a tree at 190KM/s and guess what he survived with scratches =0 Sure yhe car had no fixing possible, and he was alone in the car, but he survived at 190KM/s
07:33<Eddi|zuHause2>Frostregen: i have a question about this statistics... how did they handle the "significant increase of area" around 1990?
07:34<Eddi|zuHause2>(assuming this is based on germany)
07:34<Frostregen>no further comment on their site
07:34<Frostregen>(statistisches bundesamt)
07:34<Eddi|zuHause2>(and that before 1990 they mean west germany)
07:35<Frostregen>maybe this explains the small hill around 1990
07:35<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: you can see a slight increase of casulaties in 1990
07:35<Celestar>because of the noticable increase in population
07:35<Eddi|zuHause2>i noticed that...
07:36<Eddi|zuHause2>but i kinda thought the increase should be more significant
07:36<Celestar>still 13.6 bodies per day :(
07:36<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: most people didn't have a car there.
07:36<Eddi|zuHause2>but the number of cars increased significantly over the next few years
07:37<Celestar>in 2004, they had 43000 fatalities in the USA
07:37<Eddi|zuHause2>that's almost 10 times the fatalities compared to 5 times of the population
07:37<Celestar>and a very very low speed limit
07:38<Celestar>btw: only 5% of the fatalities in germany invovle speeds > 120km/h
07:38<Eddi|zuHause2>well... seatbelts
07:39<Celestar>and sorry to say that: piss poor driving skills
07:39<Eddi|zuHause2>well, they don't pay 2000€ for a drivers license
07:40<Eddi|zuHause2>well, 2000€ is probably exaggerated
07:40<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: these days? 2000 EUR is cheap
07:41<Eddi|zuHause2>i think i payed something around 1500 DM back in 2000
07:41<Celestar>yeah, similar here
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07:41<Eddi|zuHause2>Celestar: it depends heavily on the city you are in ;)
07:41<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: I'm in expensive-city
07:41<Eddi|zuHause2>i know ;)
07:42<Eddi|zuHause2>Frostregen: not much snow in the last year, it appears :p
07:42<Frostregen>right ;)
07:42<Frostregen>but still...rain
07:43<Frostregen>people just don't know how to handle their cars
07:43<Celestar>too many fair-weather-drivers
07:43<Eddi|zuHause2>well, the effect of rain on the braking distance is easily misjudged
07:44<Frostregen>because they never tested it
07:44<Celestar>it depends highly on the intensity, the tyres, and the road itself
07:44<Eddi|zuHause2>because that is not part of the driving school
07:44<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: which is a bad thing imho
07:45<Frostregen>i think this is not possible in driving school
07:45<Frostregen>you learn how to handle a car after the driving school
07:45<Frostregen>would take way to much time
07:46<Eddi|zuHause2>my driving school offered a free coupon for a driving security lesson after finishing
07:47<Celestar>Frostregen: imagine pilots would operate like that ..
07:48<Frostregen>there are simulators :)
07:48<Celestar>there are car simulators as well
07:48<Frostregen>i have never seen any good
07:48<ln>14:33 < Digitalfox> I have seen a A3 from a friend [...] Sure yhe car had no fixing possible, and he was alone in the car, but he survived at 190KM/s <--- that's fast
07:49<ln>the friction by the atmosphere must be significant
07:50<Frostregen>compare with racing simulations... without the feel for acceleration/weight distribution, i just can't drive
07:50<Eddi|zuHause2>an aquaintance of mine almost died in his van (~100km/h) when he hit a lorry (~30km/h) going uphill
07:50<Eddi|zuHause2>Frostregen: i agree
07:59*Celestar resumes replacing 320 trains with maglevs
07:59<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13772 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/ai.cpp ai/ai_info.cpp settings.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: make the AIPlayer settings _newgame aware
07:59<Eddi|zuHause2>i haven't done this maglev replacing in years
08:00<Celestar>neither have I :P
08:00<Eddi|zuHause2>not since i found the dbset ;)
08:00<Celestar>but that has the TR09
08:00<Celestar>and the ICE3 sucks for my network
08:01<Eddi|zuHause2>you mentioned ;)
08:01<Celestar>I can also reduce the number of trains
08:01<Celestar>which really really really helps
08:02<Eddi|zuHause2>as long as you do not have any cargo trains ;)
08:02<Celestar>I don't :)
08:02<Celestar>this is a pax only game
08:02<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, i figured ;)
08:05<Celestar>I'd rather restart the network with much fewer trains now and then slowly upgauge it again
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08:11<Celestar> \o
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08:24<Ammler>"Flyspray was unable to connect to the database. Check your settings in flyspray.conf.php"
08:30<Eddi|zuHause2>post a bug report at flyspray :p
08:31<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: btw, GRF gui has now support for ECS.
08:31<Ammler>but not optional :-)
08:31<Eddi|zuHause2>err... what?
08:32<blathijs>Ammler: I asked truebrain to fix it, it's working again now
08:32<Ammler>fast guys, thanks :-)
08:33<Ammler>hmm, seems not in FS
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09:10<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13773 /trunk/src/ (network/network_server.cpp settings.cpp): -Codechange: disable autoclean for protected/unprotected companies when the timeout is set to 0. Based on an idea by Thomas.
09:11*Celestar sighs
09:12<ln>who's Thomas?
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09:27<Celestar>I've just spent $18e9 on the maglev replacing process
09:27<Celestar>nearly broke now :P
09:27<Eddi|zuHause2>nice ;)
09:28<Celestar>19 left to replace, 7 to discard
09:28<Celestar>the main question is: I have then 220 maglevs in the depots: Should I jumpstart them or launch them in some kind of organized manner?
09:29<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... i never have a use for the ET-11
09:32<Eddi|zuHause2>the game probably needs to start earlier, so you can have a big network by the time these express trains come out
09:33<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: yes.
09:33<Celestar>when did you start?
09:33<Eddi|zuHause2>1922 or so... with daylength x4
09:33<Eddi|zuHause2>now it's 1935
09:34<Celestar>started in 1920 here (no daylength, no build on pause)
09:34<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: doesn't your towns grow too fast?
09:34*Celestar wonders whether the game will crash when he tries to update the whole rail network to maglev at once
09:35<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: the cities grow quite fast, but the villages don't
09:35<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: i've tweaked a few values in the daylength patch, though
09:36<Ammler>did you play with eGRVTS already?
09:36<Eddi|zuHause2>like, the 256 tick industry callback is only called every daylength*256ticks
09:36<Eddi|zuHause2>i didn't even play with normal GRVTS
09:36<Celestar>1 to discard, 10 to replace
09:36<Ammler>you need quite small cities for those horse waggons
09:38<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: my central city is now ~30k while the villages around it hardly grew at all
09:40*peter1138 continues with his game.
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09:42<fjb>eGRVTS looks great:
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09:43<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: but that does not help me setting up a full mainline network by 1900
09:44<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: we should ask MB to make trains for the DBSetXL prior to 1920 imho
09:44<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: Bug MB to implement earlier trains...
09:44<@peter1138>Or Pikka...
09:44<Eddi|zuHause2>Celestar: i think he already has, but he is still in the process to get it release ready
09:45<@peter1138>MB won't do it without TTDPatch support.
09:46<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: maybe we should do it (=
09:46<fjb>That is the problem with MB. But the DBset is still the favorite set of most german players.
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09:46<Eddi|zuHause2>>>i was wondering if you're going to implement pre-1920 material in the upcoming 0.9 release?
09:46<Eddi|zuHause2>>Yes, at least to some degree and that early date showing up only in OTTD, see list below.
09:46<@peter1138>Yeah, and all us UK players only play UKRS too :D
09:46<Celestar>the British trains suck :P
09:46<fjb>Or we create our own german train set. Starting at the Länderbahn age.
09:47<Celestar>at the K. Bay. St. B.
09:47-!-Gekz_ is now known as Gekz
09:47<fjb>Starting 1844 with K. Bay. St. B.
09:47<Eddi|zuHause2>1835 was the first line i thought
09:48<fjb>1835 was the Ludwigsbahn, not the K. Bay. St. B.
09:48<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: yes. 7th of December if I'm not mistaken. Nue-Fuerth
09:48<Gekz>at 1920
09:48<Gekz>you change newgrfs?
09:48<Eddi|zuHause2>first a tiny route from nürnberg to fürth, and then the mainline from leipzig to dresden
09:48<Eddi|zuHause2>Gekz: why would you do that?
09:48*Celestar tries replacing a 1kx1k map :D
09:49<Gekz>because you can
09:49<Celestar>completed :D cost about $2 billion
09:49<Eddi|zuHause2>Gekz: what do you think does the engine pool do?
09:49<Celestar>:/ do we have any pretty maglev newgrfs?
09:50<Ammler>ukrs and nars
09:50<Eddi|zuHause2>Celestar: there was a "transrapid track" grf, but with the simulated raised tracks it was far from "pretty"
09:50<Ammler>and dbset with transrapid
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09:50<Ammler>ah tracks :-)
09:51<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause2: ... what?
09:51<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: it is not that bad with the bridge
09:52<Ammler>signals are a little bit problematic
09:52<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: i don't know... i have just seen some screenshots
09:53*Celestar jumpstarts 228 Transrapids and sees what YAPP can do :P
09:54<Eddi|zuHause2>it shouldn't have that much trouble...
09:54<Eddi|zuHause2>if you said 2000 transrapids... :p
09:55<Celestar>would you really want to replace those manually?
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09:57<Eddi|zuHause2>you could try to play a NoAI game and have these tasks scripted ;)
09:57<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2: In theory I can make a railtype that is actually raise, but you'd get problems with bridges and tunnels.
09:57<@peter1138>Oh bollocks!
09:57<+glx>Eddi|zuHause2: it's not possible to have AI and player in the same company
09:58<@peter1138>I built an extensive extension but ran out of money, so there's no train to run on it.
09:59<fjb>peter1138: That is really a bad thing.
09:59<Mchl>we expect explaining explanation
09:59<Eddi|zuHause2>the max loan should be based on the amount of company assets
10:01<@peter1138>Or lease vehicles. Doesn't cost anything to get them, only a greatly increased running cost.
10:02<Eddi|zuHause2>there should be a simulation of a second market for vehicles
10:02<Eddi|zuHause2>where you can get cheap used vehicles
10:04<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... i don't know where to put my station next to this town...
10:04<hylje>put it inside the town
10:04<fjb>Blow up the town.
10:04<Eddi|zuHause2>there's a steep valley and the town is in the valley, and the rail comes from the hills
10:05<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't want to put the station in the valley, but on the hill there is a factory in the way
10:05<hylje>peter1138: vehicle leasing could be good really, but might be enabled only later on?
10:06<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: Other side of he valley?
10:06<Eddi|zuHause2>too far away from the city
10:07<fjb>Set up an bus service.
10:08<hylje>approach the city from the valley
10:08<Eddi|zuHause2>sure, but tram rather ;)
10:08<fjb>Horse tram
10:08<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: this is not 1880 ;)
10:09<fjb>Too bad...
10:09<fjb>But tourists would like a horse tram. Trust me.
10:09<@peter1138>hylje, I don't really know the history of it all.
10:09<fjb>Girls like ponies.
10:10<Eddi|zuHause2>i need an "8" button for the station sizes!
10:10<Eddi|zuHause2>7 is a weird number...
10:11<hylje>what about drag&drop stations?
10:11<@peter1138>I will get stuck later as I'm building 4 tile platforms at the moment.
10:11<@peter1138>hylje, too fiddly.
10:12<fjb>You can enhance them later.
10:12<@peter1138>Some can be lengthened.
10:13<hylje>speaking of stations, where are my sloped and curvy stations?
10:13<hylje>or rolling load/unload?
10:14<@peter1138>Hmm, seems like the AI can't make money with UKRS :o
10:14<@peter1138>Although supporting the callbacks might help;
10:14<Gekz>they lose.
10:14<fjb>Curvy stationa would be great, or at least diagonal ones. But that will need new sprites.
10:14<Gekz>and new logic.
10:14<fjb>UKRS has very high running costs.
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10:29<Eddi|zuHause2>,%2026.%20Okt%201935.png <- i think that solution is ok
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10:29<@peter1138>Solution to what?
10:30<Eddi|zuHause2>to place the station near the city, without blocking an exit by an industry and without going into the valley
10:30<fjb>The station building is still missing.
10:31<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: there are no proper big station buildings...
10:31<fjb>Better a small one than none...
10:31<Eddi|zuHause2>i mean something like 2x2 or 2x3
10:32<Eddi|zuHause2>now... 3 tram lines waiting for vehicles
10:32<Gekz>make a newgrf!
10:33<fjb>I started on some buildings some time ago, but my drawing skills suck.
10:33<@peter1138>Bah, I really really want passenger destinations.
10:34<fjb>I guess Belugas had an idea about cargo destinations just before he went on vacation.
10:34<Gekz>3D render some real buildings
10:35<fjb>But I don't know if it was just some kind of idea or something more.
10:35<@peter1138>Shouldn't be too hard to pick a route based on orders, right?
10:36<fjb>Take a model railway catalog, cut out the station pictures and glue them to the screen. :-)
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10:36<fjb>peter1138: Right. But how about the non nonstop orders, where a vehicle stops at every station...
10:37<fjb>The last passenger destination patch looked at the orders.
10:37<@peter1138>I'm happy to ignore those for destination routing.
10:38<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: the current patch can determine these non-nonstop orders already
10:38<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe that part can be salvaged somehow
10:39<fjb>Will that patch survive or does it have to be done in a completely new way to fix the desyncs?
10:42<Celestar>Rubidium: I'm closing in: 2.4 million units of cargo per year
10:42<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13774 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Add support for changing vehicle purchase list position for all vehicle types.
10:42<Yexo>Celestar: what map size / settings?
10:43<Celestar>Yexo: 1024x1024. pax only
10:43<Yexo>how many towns?
10:43<Celestar>too many :S
10:43<Celestar>I have about 50% connected up to now
10:44<Celestar>I think 228 or so
---Logclosed Mon Jul 21 10:52:43 2008
---Logopened Mon Jul 21 10:58:21 2008
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11:12*peter1138 ponders working on destinations
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11:13*Yexo hopes peter1138 will code it :)
11:13*Yorick hopes Yexo's wish will come true
11:17*hylje hopes it will never make it to the destination just to spite Yorick
11:20<planetmaker>[16:10] <Eddi|zuHause2> i need an "8" button for the station sizes! <-- I rather wished there was a <- 7 -> changable number for station size :)
11:20<hylje>default station size 7*7
11:21<Eddi|zuHause2>planetmaker: no, i often switch between values like 1x1 (for individual station parts) and 8x6 (for whole initial station size)
11:21<Eddi|zuHause2>it should be random access
11:22<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause2: both. keeping the numbers as is, an addition # button and place a <- # -> slider next to it, setting the # for the custom size
11:23-!-mikl [] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
11:23<planetmaker>or maybe station size pre-sets :)
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11:32*peter1138 mumbles about MB's station's buffers being 1x1 only...
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11:40<zooks>can anyone maybe help me with buildOttd?
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11:41<Ammler>I know, you do not like comparing with patch, but isn't the "+7" a good idea?
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11:43<Progman>zooks: at least the author can ;)
11:44<joachim>what's "+7"?
11:44<@peter1138>TTDPatch's way of allowing larger stations.
11:45<Ammler>if active, it adds +7 to the length you choosed.
11:45<DaleStan>It's TTDPatch's old way of allowing larger stations, and I agree that there are better solutions.
11:46<Ammler>old way, is there a newer?
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11:49<DaleStan>Sort of. Combine irregularstations and largestations, and you can tack on whatever tiles or platforms you want/need.
11:50<@peter1138>Ammler: "chose"
11:51<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13775 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Codechange: enforce the validity of a NetworkAction (chat packet) issued by a client
11:51<DaleStan>That's my usual way; if you know when you're building the station that it needs to be bigger than 7x7, you're either seriously over-engineering, or replacing a station. (I basically don't do the latter.)
11:52<@peter1138>Mmm, cup of tea :D
11:52<Ammler>well, 8 is quite common, DBSet ICE has that length fixed (4-8-12-16)
11:53<joachim>i use 30
11:53<@peter1138>30 tiles long?
11:53<@peter1138>Some limits should never've been broken :p
11:53<joachim>for the mainline goods trains
11:54<Ammler>does the train needs to wait for loading?
11:54<Brianetta>8 platforms is great for having two termini facing different directions.
11:54<Ammler>else it would be better, if you have more smaller trains. (for raiting)
11:55<joachim>of course, there has to be huge amounts of goods available
11:55<joachim>or feeders
11:56<Brianetta>Very long coal trains look pretty good if you use a combination of Blunck's null station tiles and the industrial coal loader. Put the coal loader in the middle of the station, and have the train protrude significantly from each end on the invisible parts.
11:56<Brianetta>If you have several platforms, you can mix up the lengths of the invisible protrusions
11:56<Brianetta>It looks quite real at a glance
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11:59<Ammler>they should be transparent...
11:59<Ammler>wasn't that possible in early times?
11:59<Brianetta>They look like regular track
12:00<Brianetta>So it looks (at first glance) like all the loading trains are at various stages of loading, real-life stylee
12:00<Brianetta>where they shunt the train through, a wagon at a time
12:00<Ammler>they are called *void" afaik
12:00<Brianetta>If only there was a way to decouple the mainline loco and use it for something else in the meantime...
12:00<Brianetta>I'm sure they are.
12:01<Brianetta>I'm at work, though, and can't check
12:02<Ammler>you are sure, you do not need :P
12:02<@peter1138>Someone should implement that properly.
12:03<Ammler>you could "refit" it to transparent
12:08<Ammler>train goes to depot -> autoreplace with transparent engine -> loading -> depot autoreplace to heavy engine -->
12:09<@peter1138>Well I meant the rolling loading actually.
12:09<@peter1138>Also there was the word 'properly' ;p
12:11<Ammler>something in combination with eddis middle stop
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12:12<Ammler>and only loading where the train has plattform, instead of slow down.
12:13*peter1138 ponders also resurrecting the 'bendy' stations patch.
12:13<@peter1138>Although I have no idea how to integrate that with NewGRF stations.
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12:23<Brianetta>peter1138: How does a bendy station work?
12:23<Brianetta>All you'd need, surely, is one grf for the bendy ones
12:23<Yorick>is 0.6.2-RC2 going to be released any time soon?
12:23<Brianetta>People can continue to use current grfs regular orthogonal stations.
12:24<@peter1138>Well corner pieces...
12:24<blathijs>Yorick: Is RC1 broken?
12:24<Yorick>but quite a few bugs got backported
12:25<Yexo>bugs got backported <- I hope this isn't true :p
12:26*peter1138 attempts to read this paxdest patch.
12:27*Rubidium calls peter1138's shrink to prepare for a visit
12:27<@peter1138>Too late.
12:27<@peter1138>Sheesh this is bad!
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12:29<@peter1138>Nice typing.
12:30<Brianetta>peter1138: That alone should be enough to discard it.
12:31*peter1138 wonders if the concept of returning passengers is really necessary.
12:32*joachim think it's not
12:40<Celestar>peter1138: which one peter1138 ?
12:42<Celestar>peter1138: the one on the dev forum?
12:46<Celestar>why are my ratings stuck at 83?
12:46<Rubidium>too slow trains?
12:46<Rubidium>too much cargo?
12:46<Celestar>Rubidium: 502km/h
12:46<fjb>Just to annoy you.
12:46<Brianetta>Some passengers at the destination will randomly want to take the same journey in reverse. They'll do.
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12:47<Rubidium>except tourists, they want to take another route to another tourist attraction ;)
12:49<fjb>Poor tourists want to go back home. All expenses tourists don't have any destination and are carried anywhere like it is now without the patch. ;-)
12:51<Celestar> <= this is getting out of hand
12:52<fjb>Doen't look that unusual.
12:52<Celestar>yeah but I prefer less cramped stations
12:53<Celestar>like so:
12:53<fjb>I once had a mainline crossing a town on bridges.
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12:55<fjb>Peter's small things under briddges patch would have been helpfull then.
12:55<Celestar>"small things" being?
12:55<Ammler>hmm "X" doesn't work on screenshots :-P
12:55<fjb>Low station parts, bus stops, small houses.
12:56<fjb>Ammler: Really?
12:56<Celestar>bus stops: ok. stations: ok. houses: ?
12:56<Celestar>neither does RMB+drag
12:56<fjb>Dragging with the left mouse button also doesn't work.
12:56<Ammler>strange, isn't?
12:56-!-Osai is now known as Osai^Kendo
12:57<fjb>Celestar: There are small houses and tall houses. The game should know the bounding box of a house.
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13:00<Celestar>fjb: normally, bridges are not built OVER houses, are they?
13:00<joachim>with the town growth patch it seems obstacles (like tracks) stops towns from expanding in all directions, does anyone else have or know about that?
13:00<joachim>not sure it the behaviour is different without that patch
13:01<fjb>Celestar: Peter has a secret patch in his cellar.
13:03<Ammler>as always...$
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13:13<fjb>Quack frosch123 :-)
13:13<frosch123>moin fjb :p
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13:22<Celestar>andromeda:/home 8.9T 8.5T 398G 96% /nfs/home
13:29<@peter1138>The problem is, maglev is ugly.
13:30<@peter1138>I have no idea what half this patch is supposed to be doing :o
13:31<Celestar>peter1138: the paxdest?
13:33<Celestar>peter1138: I know what it does. It runs a for-loop over all cargopackets every single day :o
13:34<Celestar>suggestion solution by author: do this on a second core (or something along those lines)
13:35<Celestar>peter1138: are we going to pursue the paxdest thing at some point or not? I've had quite some ideas about it which might actually work :P
13:39<@peter1138>I'd like to, not necessarily this way, though.
13:39<@peter1138>My theory is destinations only need to be updated if orders are changed.
13:40<@peter1138>But I don't know quite what that for-loop does.
13:41<@peter1138>I don't know what the statistics are used for.
13:44<@peter1138>Oh, *Janet*
13:45<+glx><Celestar> suggestion solution by author: do this on a second core (or something along those lines) <-- as it already fail to work in multiplayer that won't matter ;)
13:47<@peter1138>I'd also like to see destinations for all cargo types.
13:47<@peter1138>All optional, of course.
13:47<Celestar>peter1138: your theory is congruent with my theory
13:47<Celestar>peter1138: and it does work.
13:47<@peter1138>Different methods of selecting destination depending on the cargo's behaviour (TE_ enum)
13:47<Celestar>peter1138: I've got to go, can we resume this tomorrow? :D
13:48<planetmaker>[19:47] <peter1138> All optional, of course. <--- please! Or it would be worse than with stockpiling and rough economy and ECS :)
13:48<@peter1138>I'm fully aware that not everyone sees the benefits ;)
13:49<Celestar>cu guys
13:49<planetmaker>peter1138: it's not that I don't see the benefit. But I know that I _also_ enjoy the traditional game with huge piles at one station :)
13:49<planetmaker>cu Celestar
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13:50<@peter1138>That was a joke :)
13:51<planetmaker>I just don't come around often to testing non MP patches :)
13:51<@peter1138>God damn, I'm in love with michi_cc!
13:52<planetmaker>though I did with this...
13:52<@peter1138>YAPP of course :p
13:52<SmatZ>no need to exaplain further :)
13:52<Yorick>commit it to show your love
13:52<planetmaker>hehe :) intended mis-understanding ;)
13:53<@peter1138>I'll wait for Brianetta's wave of testing to fix all the bugs ;)
13:54<@peter1138>The AI has built a rail bridge all the way through a town over a road.
13:54<@peter1138>Quite a nice solution, actually.
13:54<fjb>Never thought the ai would be smart enough.
13:54<@peter1138>Well, it's shame about the weird loops either side of it...
13:55<fjb>Noai branch... :-)
13:55<fjb>It would be great to have bus stops at the road under the bridge. *hint*
13:56<planetmaker>(I meant the solution of the AI)
13:56<+glx>fjb: that would allow all stations under bridge
13:57<+glx>even airports
13:57<planetmaker>hehe :)
13:57<Yorick>heh, 0.6.2-RC1 is actually network-compatible with 0.6.1
13:57<fjb>Runway under a bridge... why not? :-)
13:57<planetmaker>hm.... I've seen the reverse: runway as a bridge... :)
13:58<fjb>That is really not that unusual.
13:59<@peter1138>glx: All? My existing patch already allows different types and heights...
13:59<+glx>checking bounding boxes?
14:00<Yorick>I think some kind of newgrf parameter
14:04<blathijs>Yorick: Is it really compatible? Or does it just not desync within the first few seconds? :-_
14:05<Yorick>blathijs: I've been on a server for over an hour
14:05<Yorick>so it is quite compatible
14:05<blathijs>With a hacked client that changes the version number?
14:06<Yorick>with the -n argument ;)
14:06<Yorick>it is only disabled gui-wise
14:06<blathijs>hmm, somehow I think that's a flaw in our code :-p
14:07<Yorick>no it isn't
14:07<Yorick>it doesn't even know the servers revision
14:07<Yorick>it doesn't go for udp
14:07<Yorick>and you cannot get tge revision with tcp
14:07<blathijs>Then that's another flaw :-p
14:07<Rubidium>Yorick: how extensively have you tested it?
14:08<+glx>Yorick: savegames are stable in any branch
14:08<Rubidium>I reckon I can cause a desync pretty quickly
14:08<Yorick>Rubidium: just joined a server...
14:08<Yorick>I do not care about your abilities
14:08<Yorick>it works under normal conditions
14:08<+glx>so the client can load it, but commands may do different things
14:08<Yorick>I've had 0 desyncs so far
14:09<Rubidium>Yorick: now let an RV run to a non-drive through road stop and when it enters send it to the depot
14:10<Rubidium>and there's some signal state updates that can cause desyncs, also easily causing a desync
14:14<blathijs>Yorick: Hmm, from looking at the changelog, it seems that they should indeed be pretty compatible, as long as you don't trigger any of the bugs fixed in 0.6.2
14:16<@peter1138>glx: No, a new GRF property.
14:17<@peter1138>Which defaults to not allowing a bridge.
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14:21<fjb>I need a one way sign for rail roads.
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14:22<@peter1138>A signal?
14:22<Yorick>blathijs: I would love it if you fixed the implementation (revision in tcp packet, clientid in command-packet)
14:22<fjb>A place where the one way sign is nedded is not always a safe waiting point.
14:23<@peter1138>Ah, for YAPP. Yes, I've needed that before.
14:24<blathijs>Yorick: Actually, it seems the code is already there, just disabled by default :-)
14:25<Yorick>how do you mean?
14:25<Rubidium>why clientid in the command packet?
14:26<joachim>i thought a one-way yapp signal wasn't a safe waiting point for opposing trains
14:26<Yorick>Rubidium: why not?
14:26<Rubidium>cause it's pointless to add it?
14:26<Yorick>is it?
14:26<blathijs>The socket determines which client sent the packet, right?
14:26<Yorick>you can't know it client-side
14:26<blathijs>Ie, you can't send packets for more than 1 client over a single socket?
14:27<Rubidium>it is as blathijs says
14:27<Yorick>I mean server->client
14:27<blathijs>Do you need to know the client id clientside then?
14:27<Yorick>I would like to
14:28<@peter1138>joachim, yes but we'd like one that isn't a safe point for any direction.
14:29<joachim>that would be nice for single tracks :)
14:29<blathijs>Yorick: Why?
14:29<Yorick>for administrating purposes
14:29<joachim>or would it
14:30<joachim>depends on the implementation
14:30<Yorick>I think it's a serious defacement for a logger if it doesnt know what client it came from
14:30<Ammler>peter1138: isn't that the same as no signal?
14:31<joachim>it should disallow one direction, Ammler
14:31<Ammler>but not allow stopping
14:32<Yorick>blathijs: where is that functionality with revisions?
14:32<blathijs>Yorick: look for WITH_REV
14:32<joachim>ln: where's that?
14:33<Yorick>blathijs: yeah, but that's server-side
14:33<joachim>and what's that :)
14:33<Rubidium>Yorick: so?
14:33<Rubidium>what's the point with it being server side?
14:33<blathijs>Yorick: So the clients sends its revision, and the server denies everyone with a different rev
14:33<Yorick>I would like to know the server-revision clientside
14:33<ln>joachim: Seinäjoki
14:34<blathijs>Yorick: Ah, then you should use an UDP query :-p
14:34<joachim>no el rails?
14:34<Yorick>blathijs: I could still just adapt my revision to the server revision using that udp packet
14:34<blathijs>Yorick: Yeah, it is, by definition, not fool proof
14:34<blathijs>Yorick: But it's mainly to prevent people from making mistakes, not anything else
14:35<ln>joachim: not right there. if you have a map nearby, that picture is from somewhere between Seinäjoki and Vaasa, which doesn't have elrails.
14:35<Yorick>blathijs: it's clear that I do not make a mistake if I use that -n command
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14:36<joachim>ln: ok. and what am i looking at?
14:37-!-M4rk is now known as Mark
14:37<fjb>peter1138: Could a kind of programmable sign get implemented, not only as an one way sign but also to add penalty to the pathfinder depending on the lenght and load of the train?
14:37<ln>joachim: just those two towns, dunno
14:38<Yorick>blathijs: I find it a bit stupid to set up an UDP connection just to get the revision
14:39<ln>"UDP connection"...
14:40<joachim>ln: the train
14:40<Yorick>ln:'ll ruin my theories
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14:41<ln>Yorick: UDP is connectionless.
14:41<Yorick>I said shush :p
14:42<Yorick>"I find it a bit stupid to listen for udp just to get the revision"
14:44<blathijs>Yorick: I agree that it wouldn't be weird to let the server send its revision
14:44<blathijs>otoh, if we just enable the WITH_REV check again, you can be sure that the server's revision is the same as yours, and the problem is solved :-)
14:45<blathijs>Yorick: Can you give an example of those administration purpose for the client id, btw?
14:45<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: imho that kind of functionality should be put into waypoints
14:45<Yorick>"company 4 built a new industry at tile 12581" <-- that's a log entry
14:46<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: We need diagonal waypoints then.
14:46<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: different issue ;)
14:46<Eddi|zuHause2>signals are already way too overloaded with functionality
14:46<fjb>And waypoints that are smaller.
14:47<fjb>Proggrammable signals are a bad choice with yapp.
14:48<Yorick>blathijs: coop games without a password
14:49<blathijs>Yorick: And then you need it why?
14:49<Yorick>to figure out what client is blocking stuff/selling trains
14:49<Yorick>or demolishing water
14:50<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13776 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix: some revision checking code was unintentionally disabled.
14:50<blathijs>Ah, when you have multiple clients per company?
14:51<blathijs>Ah, then it makes a bit more sense to send a client id in addition to a player id :-)
14:51<Rubidium>but... why would a client need to do the logging?
14:51<blathijs>Or there should be an extra abstraction, company id
14:51<Yorick>because a server needs to be patched
14:52<Rubidium>I reckon that a server has more chance of actually staying in game when bad things happen than any client
14:52<blathijs>ie, client id <1-to-1> player id <many to one> company id
14:52<Rubidium>playerid == companyid
14:52<blathijs>anyhow, /me is off to cleaning
14:52<SmatZ>why do you need that? for malicious user, changing client_id is matter of one second
14:53<Yorick>are you really doing everything in your path to stop me from doing nice things?
14:53<SmatZ>or you can even put client_id = Random() on game start
14:53<Yorick>SmatZ: if you are the server...
14:53<blathijs>Rubidium: Currently yes, but a many-to-one between client and player is weird. Multiple players have one company, not multiple clients controlling one player (IMO, but this is mostly conceptual)
14:53<Yorick>you can't change the client_id on the server
14:54<Rubidium>blathijs: the problem is that "player" is wrongly named
14:54<Yorick>not from ttd-scope
14:54<SmatZ>well, I think it wouldn't hurt to send client number instead of my_cmd ...
14:54<Rubidium>a "player" in OpenTTD's sense is a "company"
14:54<blathijs>Rubidium: Yeah, that's actually even better. Ie, rename player to company and client to player :-)
14:55<blathijs>And leave out client (which corresponds to having a 1-to-1 relation, which is usually pointless anyway)
14:55<SmatZ>hehe changing naming scheme will cause even more mess
14:55<Yorick>Rubidium: are you doing everything in your path to stop me from doing some nice things?
14:56<SmatZ>so you have to say "player in the new meaning of that word"
14:56<blathijs>SmatZ: That's only temporary :-)
14:56<Rubidium>Yorick: no
14:56<blathijs>Yorick: Nobody is really stopping you from doing anything
14:57<blathijs>Yorick: We're just trying understand what you want to do and why
14:57<Rubidium>but I'm trying to keep the bug count due to stupid users joining a server with a wrong revision low
14:57<blathijs>Yorick: And as the engineers we've been educated to be, we provide feedback :-)
14:57<blathijs>And for the revision thing, feel free to hack your client to send a different revision number :-p
14:57<Rubidium>never directly implement what an user wants because the user is usually wrong in how to implement something
14:58<Yorick>Rubidium: well they can't JUST do that...
14:58<SmatZ>"stupid users" don't know command line
14:58<Rubidium>SmatZ: true
14:59<Rubidium>but stupid users need some "tool" to start it which uses the command prompt ;)
14:59<Rubidium>like "join_my_server.exe"
14:59<Yorick>do they?
14:59<Yorick>no, they do not?
14:59<Yorick>I still think it's better to check that stuff client-side
15:00-!-NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@] has joined #openttd
15:00<SmatZ>Yorick: anyway, why is enforcing corrent revision blocking you from anything? if you want, you can code a little patch that will imitate client revision to be the same as server's
15:00<Yorick>SmatZ: join #openttd-python
15:02-!-Felle [] has joined #openttd
15:04<Yorick>and how about players that have norev000?
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15:05<Rubidium>there wasn't a norev000 server in the last 6 months, so it's not a problem anymore
15:05<Yorick>but the clients...
15:06<SmatZ>client with norev000 doesn't have working GRFs
15:06<SmatZ>not even openttd.grf
15:08<Rubidium>those clients wouldn't have been able to join any servers for a long time; haven't heard any complaint about that either
15:08<Yorick>haven't they?
15:09<Rubidium>well, except via the console...
15:09<DJNekkid>im makeing a 3part articulated engine, and that works, no problem at all and it get <-> as it sould, but if i add a 2nd engine (or, 3 new parts if you wish) the sprites get <->>>> . here is the var2: -1 * 0 02 00 00 81 41 00 FF 02 AA 00 00 00 A1 00 01 01 AC 00 . I've fiddled a bit with the FF (41 00 FF), but no luck, it gets either wrong, or scrambled...
15:10<DJNekkid>is it possible, or does it need to be in a power of 2 or 4 or such
15:11<DJNekkid>*sigh* bbl 15 mins
15:11<planetmaker>bool CircularTileSearch(TileIndex *tile, uint size, TestTileOnSearchProc proc, void *user_data) <--- I wonder how I utilize this function
15:11<Eddi|zuHause2>from an uneducated viewer it looks ok
15:11<+glx><Yorick> I still think it's better to check that stuff client-side <-- the rule is "NEVER TRUST A CLIENT"
15:11<planetmaker>of what type or how shaped does this TestTileOnSearchProc have to be?
15:12<planetmaker>I cannot find an example in the source... is it ever used?
15:12<Eddi|zuHause2>but shouldn't you do "mod 3", DJNekkid?
15:13<frosch123>planetmaker: newgrf_houses.cpp
15:14<@peter1138>Rubidium: Fix it?
15:14<@peter1138>Hmm, or not, I was scrolled back :o
15:14<frosch123>planetmaker: but IIRC it is also used for statues
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15:15<planetmaker>ah, right. Thx, now found it. I guess my grep had a space too much in the search expression :P
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15:17<Yorick>glx: the purpose was to hold back bugs that were caused by clients joining servers via console
15:17<Yorick>we could check that server-side
15:17<Yorick>but client-side would be ok
15:17<+glx>it's very easy to patch a client to disable a client-side check
15:18<Yorick>but then the client isn't making a 'mistake' anymore
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15:19<Rubidium>and send version is easier than send hello, receive version, send okay my version is correct
15:19<@peter1138>And the result is the same.
15:20<Yorick>no, because a client should be able to hack something so it could join servers cross-versioned
15:20<@peter1138>Should? No it shouldn't.
15:20<Yorick>why should't it
15:20<+glx>we don't want that
15:20<Yorick>we don't
15:20<Yorick>why won't we?
15:20<@peter1138>If you wanted that, you'd not have a version check at all.
15:20<+glx>if you want to "fake" the revision you have to compile
15:20<Rubidium>cheap ddos
15:21<+glx>we won't ease hacking
15:21<Yorick>peter1138: yes, to prevent clients from submitting bugs
15:21-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
15:22<@peter1138>You are not making sense. Mixing versions is never a good idea.
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15:23<Yorick><blathijs>So the main reason you dislike the server side version check, is because now your python implementation can't join anymore? <-- yes...
15:23<Ammler>keep in mind, there are some nice patched server around. not coop ;-)
15:23<Ammler>but i.e. Kurts challenge with ladder etc.
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15:24<@peter1138>The version appears in the UDP query, doesn't it?
15:24-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:24<@peter1138>So... query that if you must.
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15:24<Eddi|zuHause2>but he wanted to avoid UDP :p
15:24<blathijs>Yorick: I would say that having a special of "I don't have a version and I am not a real player" could be added?
15:25<Yorick>blathijs: you're the dev...
15:25<@peter1138>Not really worth it just for Yorick's request.
15:25<Yorick>> I could use UDP...but it COULD fail delivering packets, and timeout
15:25<@peter1138>It could. Tough.
15:25<Rubidium>world news: TCP can too!
15:25<@peter1138>I'm sure you can figure out how to do retries.
15:26<joachim>Rubidium: tcp never fails!
15:26<Rubidium>only TCP timeouts could take as long as 2 hours
15:26<joachim>it has backup pigeons
15:27<Eddi|zuHause2>TCP timeouts could as well be set to 2 years ;)
15:27<Yorick><blathijs>Yorick: I would say that having a special of "I don't have a version and I am not a real player" could be added? <-- didn't norev000 do that?
15:27<Rubidium>no, it didn't
15:27<Rubidium>it was only that everyone could join a norev000 server
15:27<Rubidium>not vice versa
15:28<blathijs>Ah, right
15:28<blathijs>That makes more sense
15:28<blathijs>anyhow, I was going to start vacuuming around an hour ago or so
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15:33<DJNekkid>any clues? :)
15:34<DJNekkid>on the question i asked about 15 mins ago
15:34<Eddi|zuHause2>try instead of 00 FF
15:35<Eddi|zuHause2>80 FF 03
15:35<DJNekkid>i tried 00 02
15:35<DJNekkid>not 40/41 FF 03 ?
15:35<joachim>does servicing affect reliability? or reliability affect plane crash probability?
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15:36<Eddi|zuHause2>DJNekkid: because for the second unit, the vehicle positons are not 0,1,2 but they are 3,4,5, and they are all >=2, so the "default" branch is always taken
15:36-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause2>so you must take "(vehicle postition) mod 3"
15:37<Yorick>peter1138> Not really worth it just for Yorick's request. <-- how many work would it be, "if version != noplayer000 && ...", or if I would even create a patch for you...
15:37<DJNekkid>Eddi|zuHause2: that is what i've tried with 41 00 03
15:38<DJNekkid>i mean, 02
15:38<blathijs>Yorick: Things cost more than just the effor of writing code, though
15:38<Eddi|zuHause2>DJNekkid: no, that is the and mask, which means mod 2^n
15:39<Eddi|zuHause2>DJNekkid: that won't work with 2
15:39<Eddi|zuHause2>err... 3
15:39<Yorick>blathijs: are you done with vacuuming already?
15:39<blathijs>I'm in denial
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15:51<Guest621>hey guys. I safed a game in multiplayer mode. Now I want to continue playing it offline. But when I open it, I am Player 1. I want to be player 7. How can I achieve that?
15:51<tom0004>cheat menu
15:52<tom0004>CTRL + ALT + C
15:52<Guest621>are the commands in the wiki?
15:52<joachim>doesn't work in multiplayer, tom0004?
15:52<tom0004>if its a saved game, it does
15:52<Yorick>joachim: he wants to continue playing it offline
15:52-!-gregor__ [] has joined #openttd
15:56<Guest621>great, there even is a gui for the cheats ;-) ok, worked. thanks and bye.
15:56<joachim>cheaters go to hell...
15:57<Guest621>well, 1. just offline, 2. I want to continue being the player that I was when I safed it. So how is that cheating?
15:57<joachim>you cheated
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16:01<DJNekkid>imho isnt it a cheat menu, it's a test-and-debug menu :)
16:01<Wolf01>cheats are for debug
16:01<Eddi|zuHause2>"debug" is a common euphemism for "cheat" :p
16:02<joachim>well you have the source code
16:02<joachim>for single player really nothing is cheating
16:02<+glx>debug builds have money shortcut that aren't cheats
16:02<joachim>make your own game :)
16:02<Yorick>glx: alt-0 :-)
16:03<+glx>not this one ;)
16:03<Yexo><Yorick> glx: alt-0 :-) <- my openttd just crashed because I pressed alt-0 :p
16:03<+glx>yes it's intended
16:03<Yorick>hence the :-)
16:03<Yexo>aha :)
16:03<+glx>alt-1 for money
16:03<Yorick>it is the shortcut to crash openttd
16:04<Yorick>(why does it have a shortcut for that?)
16:04<Wolf01>I want a shortcut to make trains blow up by clicking on them :D
16:04<joachim>should be super + alt + f4 :
16:04<+glx>Yorick: to open the debugger
16:05<+glx>and with a little code change to check if crash.log and crash.dmp works correctly
16:05<Yexo><glx> alt-1 for money <- usefull to know for testing, save me opening the cheat menu every time
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16:15<@peter1138>joachim: Yes and no. I think.
16:15<@peter1138>Oh ffs... stupid scroll back :O
16:15<joachim>i think no, hence the half smiley
16:16<joachim>ok :P
16:19<Eddi|zuHause2>i think he answered to this: <joachim> does servicing affect reliability? or reliability affect plane crash probability?
16:19<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2 wins a... well, nothing actually.
16:20<Eddi|zuHause2>great... i have everything anyway :p
16:21<joachim>if the latter wasn't a disaster, reliablity should affect the probability of it.. and affect possible passengers
16:21<joachim>could make air travel interesting :)
16:21<Eddi|zuHause2>a crash immediately sets all nearby ratings to 0
16:22<Eddi|zuHause2>that'll affect passenger numbers nicely :p
16:22<joachim>should be company-wide
16:22<joachim>if reliability caused it
16:22<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't know... the radius is like 20 or something
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16:33<blathijs>dih: Are you dihedral, or is that somebody else?
16:33<blathijs>dih: If so, can you tell me where the 55 client limit comes from?
16:33<+glx>he is
16:34<+glx>and the limit comes from packet size
16:34<Ammler>just a nice number, isn't
16:34<blathijs>glx: Because the entire client list must fit in a UPD packet?
16:35<Ammler>but that limit is around 12
16:36<Ammler>or did he already fix it?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: not when you put the entire client list in an extra package
16:37<Ammler>that is what dih is working on, afaik...
16:38<Ammler>but then the limits are other number then 55, that was "just" imagination
16:38<Ammler>the client list was disabled there for wwottdgd.
16:41<Yorick>gx: it does not need that anymore
16:42<blathijs>I think you could also just list the first so many clients and then end with "and more"
16:42<Yorick>the udp packet with the client list got removed
16:42<blathijs>Since the UDP client list is only informational
16:42<blathijs>Ah, that's also a solution :-)
16:42-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
16:42<Ammler>blathijs: that was "his" first idea... (after wwottdgd/1)
16:42<Yorick>according to Rubidium, he could crash any server with it
16:43<Rubidium>any unpassworded server with no passworded companies
16:43<Rubidium>and I didn't remove the packet, just the client information
16:43<blathijs>ie, make the data per-client a lot less?
16:44<blathijs>And crashing a server by spawning infinite connections? :-)
16:44<Rubidium>so only 5 characters per client?
16:44<Yorick>only a part of the name would fit there
16:44<Rubidium>i.e. only the first 4 characters of the player names
16:45<Yorick>heh, forgot the \0
16:45<blathijs>Rubidium: And the client id I guess?
16:45<Ammler>maybe a idea for "cleaning" the server list :P
16:45<Rubidium>client ids aren't sent in the udp packet
16:46<blathijs>Rubidium: Then what is the fifth byte? Trailing 0?
16:46<Yorick>that is currently the last byte of every string, I think
16:46<blathijs>Couldn't that be simply removed? Ie, always send 5 characters (and stuff with
16:46<blathijs>\0 if less than 5 characters)
16:46<blathijs>not that it matters mutch
16:46<Rubidium>well, I just removed the player names from it
16:46<Rubidium>which solves the problem too without complexifying stuff
16:47<blathijs>but you left in the first 4 characters? OR was that previously?
16:47<Rubidium>no, previously it send the complete name
16:47<Rubidium>and I just removed sending that
16:48<blathijs>Why do you still send the first 4 chars? So people can guess a little whos is playing on a server before joining?
16:48<Rubidium>blathijs: I don't send that
16:48<Rubidium>it was meant metaphorically
16:48<Rubidium>it just sends company info and nothing about the players
16:49<blathijs>Makes sense :-)
16:49<Yorick>yet wouldn't it be possible to make that a tcp packet?
16:49<Rubidium>previously it sent up to 100 something bytes per company and up to 80 bytes per client
16:49<Rubidium>Yorick: yes, not going to happen though
16:50<Yorick>why not?
16:50<Rubidium>as it is pointless
16:50<Yorick>is it?
16:50<Yorick>could you explain?
16:50<Rubidium>network_server.cpp:64 and further would explain it I guess
16:51<Yorick>does that contain the clients?
16:53<Yorick>and I don't mean a string by that
16:53<Rubidium>then what do you mean?
16:53<Yorick>a client_id+name for every client
16:53-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
16:54<Rubidium>though the udp packet didn't contain that either
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16:55<Yorick>it did contain the join date
16:55-!-ben_goodger [] has joined #openttd
16:55<Yorick>and the unique id
16:55<Yorick>which isn't sent at all now, btw
16:56<Yorick>is there a reason why the ip's aren't sent to the clients?
16:57<Rubidium>is there a good reason why they should be sent?
16:57<Rubidium>you can't connect to like 80% anyways because they are behind some DSL/cable modem
16:58<Yorick>everyone could say he's xxxxxxx while he's possibly not
16:58<dasy2k1>and what does that matter?
16:58<dasy2k1>if its wrong and you try to connect then you will not be able to
16:59<Rubidium>ips are worthless for identification
16:59<Yorick>sometimes not
16:59<Rubidium>there are many many people who get a new IP every day
16:59<dasy2k1>mine changes every time i reboot the dsl modem
16:59<Yorick>sometimes I wouldn't mind to be one of them
16:59<dasy2k1>(about once a week)
17:00<Yorick>escaping bans and such :-P
17:00<Yorick>dasy: can't use that with openttd
17:00<dasy2k1>i would guess not, its damn slow anyway
17:01<Yorick>Rubidium: why does IRC, then, send ips to its clients?
17:01-!-ben_goodger [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
17:01<+glx>Yorick: only for dcc
17:02<dasy2k1>irc predates NAT and the likes, when IRC was new evreyone had a fixed IP
17:03<dasy2k1>irc is like leftover form the days of the arpanet
17:03<ln>and few people actually ran an irc client on their own computer.
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17:05<joachim>everyone should have a fixed ip
17:06<dasy2k1>joachim: hard to do that on ip4 as there are precious little adresses left
17:06<joachim>ipv6 should have been enforced as standard
17:06<Rubidium>Yorick: you can use tor with openttd if you use tsocks
17:07<joachim>standards rarely changes by choise :)
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17:19<fjb>Yes officer, I really just used OpenTTD with tor. Really, please belive me...
17:20<joachim>you have the right not to send udp packages
17:24<DJNekkid>i have a fixed ip... well, my modem does
17:25<dasy2k1>on another topic anyone know a patchpack including paxdest newer than 13019?
17:26<DJNekkid>none afaik
17:26<dasy2k1>whats that?
17:27<Ammler>the russian thing...
17:29<DJNekkid>paxdest is nice, but after a certain number of stations it "hickups" every day
17:30<Ammler>you missed the discussion 4 hours ago...
17:30<dasy2k1>hmm the only problem with it i have is that if you have 2 ways of getting from A to B without changing, regardless of which comes along first all passengers will wait for the faster one
17:31-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
17:32<DJNekkid>Ammler: and what did the result of the discussion come to?
17:33<Ammler>check logs :-)
17:34-!-Progman [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:36<fjb>ls -l
17:37<dasy2k1>oops wrong window
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17:42<SpComb>ls -lahna
17:42<dasy2k1>| grep openttd
17:42<joachim>DJNekkid: how many stations and what hardware?
17:43<DJNekkid>joachim: not sure, about 1 year old Dell D620 ... dualcore 1,8ghz (i think) and 2gb ram
17:43<DJNekkid>not sure about the stations i mean
17:43<DJNekkid>Intel Centrino Duo according to the sticker :)
17:43<DJNekkid>T2400 1,83ghz
17:44<joachim>like thousands of stations or what?
17:44<Eddi|zuHause2><DJNekkid> paxdest is nice, but after a certain number of stations it "hickups" every day <- problem is not the number of stations, but the number of cargo packets
17:45-!-NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@] has quit [Quit:]
17:45<DJNekkid>joachim: nope, i have 3 cities with like 10 stations in each, and on that map does it hickup
17:46<DJNekkid>and btw, im talking about the socalled "new paxdest patch" on the devforum now ... the one in Roest's patch pack
17:46<DJNekkid>rev 13019 or something
17:46<joachim>and you don't have daily autosaves right? :)
17:46<Eddi|zuHause2>joachim: the patch loops all cargo packets each day
17:47<Eddi|zuHause2>which gets very slow very fast
17:47<dasy2k1>tahst the patch i use
17:47<joachim>Eddi|zuHause2: have not experienced that
17:47<dasy2k1>dont notice that on my 2.4GHz x2 machine
17:48<dasy2k1>then again i normally play with 1024x256 and low towns
17:48<Eddi|zuHause2>it is easily noticeably
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17:48<joachim>i have 2048x2048, hundreds of stations and different routes
17:48<joachim>no hicups
17:49<DJNekkid>do u use daylength mod as well?
17:49<DJNekkid>set to a somewhat high number?
17:49<joachim>i think 3 or 4
17:49<DJNekkid>oh ... should not be that noticeable then
17:49<dasy2k1>i use 2
17:50<DJNekkid>but u can imagine a 1sec delay every 2,22 secs :)
17:50-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
17:50<joachim>not really, shouldn't i get a 1sec delay everi 2,22 * 3 secs?
17:51<Eddi|zuHause2>my delay is a lot bigger than 1s already
17:51*dasy2k1 forgot he had somthing allready eating 1 cpu core and tried to compile openttd with -j3
17:51<Eddi|zuHause2>joachim: slowdowns are most noticable when you scroll during day change ;)
17:52<DJNekkid>or look at a train moveing :)
17:53<dasy2k1>the only real slowdown i notice is when i have masses of trians time moves slower when i can see masses of trains than when i am staring at a bit of empty land
17:53<Eddi|zuHause2>i scroll all the time... and i regularly end up in completely uninhabited areas, very confusing
17:54<joachim>as long as it's faster than my original ttd on 486 sx, i won't complain :)
17:55<SmatZ>OTTD with 2000 trains on a 2GHz CPU is likely to be slower than TTD with 80 trains on a 80486 ;)
17:56<SmatZ>mmm maybe not
17:56<SmatZ>as I remember playing TTD on a 33MHz, it was really slow
17:56<Eddi|zuHause2>OTTD with 0 trains and ECS grfs is massively slower than TTO ;)
17:57<Eddi|zuHause2>i couldn't play that, i had massive 386 flashbacks
17:57<dasy2k1>i dont use ECS as i use UKRS industries instead
17:57<Eddi|zuHause2>yes. PBI is much better
17:57<joachim>is ecs stable?
17:57<joachim>i use pbi sometimes as well
17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>joachim: "beta" does hardly count as "stable" in most definitions :p
17:59<fjb>George has chosen the most complicated approach.
18:00<Eddi|zuHause2>MB wanted to make his own ECS implementation
18:01<fjb>MB wants to many things. Somebody should send him a lot of time.
18:02<DJNekkid>just like a friend of mine ... he works 40 hour a day, 10 days a week :p
18:03<fjb>24 hours a day and there there is also the night.
18:06<dasy2k1>gah, why am i allways pink?
18:06<dasy2k1>i hate pink!
18:07<fjb>Hm, maybe Dasy sounds a bit girlish...
18:07<tom0004>think of it a salmon, not pink ;)
18:08<dasy2k1>tis true that my nick is not any definate gender but...
18:09<dasy2k1>opennttd dousent know taht i still insists on making me pink
18:09<fjb>OpenTTD knows you better than you think.
18:10<dasy2k1>have you ever seen a pink bus in RL that is not the campaign vechle for the LGBT liberation front?
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18:11<fjb>Did you ever see the pink elephants of the DB advertising campaign?
18:12<dasy2k1>what are adverts? since i got a PVR i dont see any
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18:14<SmatZ>I see ads (billboards..) everytime I leave home :-P
18:15<DJNekkid>dasy2k1: you just start watching the tvshows 30 minuts to late? :)
18:15<dasy2k1>then you can just fast forward the ads out
18:15<dasy2k1>unless its bbc of course then there arnt any to begin with
18:16<SmatZ>I like ads
18:16<SmatZ>one can go to a toilet or so
18:16<dasy2k1>thast what the pause button id for
18:16<DJNekkid>with PVR can u pause the show :)
18:16<DJNekkid>but dasy2k1: does it tape all channels at once? ;)
18:17<DJNekkid>my wife is a man when it comes to zapping
18:17<dasy2k1>up to 2 at a time
18:17<dasy2k1>i just scroll thu the on screen listings
18:19<Rubidium>dasy2k1: I've seen a pink train though
18:20<dasy2k1>hmm yes
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18:20<dasy2k1>i seem to remember central trains havving one witha an all over vinal
18:21<DJNekkid>lol, i were wondering why the TE didnt change, and i had saved the nfo, ran the batchfile that encode and copy, and pressed "apply" new graphics...
18:21<DJNekkid>i were workin' on the wrong train
18:23<fjb>Don't take the wrong train...
18:25<DJNekkid>im not takeing trains, im codeing them :)
18:25<DJNekkid>hence the "why isnt some shit working"-questions some times
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18:35<dasy2k1>or however you spell it basically the whole train was covered in stickey back plastic (cheaper for temp livery than a full repaint)
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18:39<fjb>Yeah, music without drm...
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause2>how do you dare dismiss drm ;)
18:40<DJNekkid>vinyl isnt that bad, but nothing beats (imho) a CDJ1000 mk3
18:43<DJNekkid>it beats any SL1210 anyday :)
18:44<Eddi|zuHause2>a what?
18:44<Eddi|zuHause2>in german we say "ich verstehe nur bahnhof" :p
18:47<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13777 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_info.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: GCC can give silly warnings just like MSVC ..
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18:52<Tefad>oh crap : )
18:53<Tefad>i got lucky there. usually /b/ is a bit more uh.. worse.
18:53<Tefad>(obviously i didn't mean to paste here)
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19:15<Brianetta>r13773 - I submitted a patch that did this back in the four-figure revisions.
19:16<Brianetta>Of course, it was completely ignored...
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause2>!openttd commit 137733
19:17<Eddi|zuHause2>@openttd commit 137733
19:17<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: Commit r137733 doesn't exists
19:17<Eddi|zuHause2>@openttd commit 13773
19:17<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: Commit by rubidium :: r13773 /trunk/src (network/network_server.cpp settings.cpp) (2008-07-21 13:05:43 UTC)
19:17<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: -Codechange: disable autoclean for protected/unprotected companies when the timeout is set to 0. Based on an idea by Thomas.
19:17<Brianetta>It was four extra lines of code, and not based on an idea by Thomas.
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19:18<Brianetta>In fact, "Brianetta's Nightly" had this code, since it didn't affect the game state at all.
19:18<Brianetta>Clients didn't need the patch, and I just lied about the version.
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19:36<rortom>Rubidium: thanks for working on my ticket
19:36<rortom>glx: you committed your patch for the fake chat msgs into the trunk?
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19:43<rortom>nice, thanks :)
19:44<rortom>do you want to continue to test the protocol for flaws?
19:44<rortom>i could help you with that
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20:19<fmauNeko>good night ;)
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20:36<dasy2k1>are thease new pbs like signals in the wiki somwhere?
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21:11<rortom>anyone want to test the bot? :)
21:12<Eddi|zuHause3>at three in the morning?
21:12<rortom>sure :p
21:13<fjb>Hmmmm, MB needs an OpenTTD desensitisation. Somebody should give him a prescription to play only OpenTTD for at least 6 months.
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21:23<Eddi|zuHause3>why? did he say anything?
21:23<fjb>Just read the gernam forum. Or better don't.
21:24<Eddi|zuHause3>you have link?
21:26<dasy2k1>gah, this new PBS sousent work
21:27<dasy2k1>it reserves a path right into another train
21:27<Tefad>baahahaha nice
21:29<fjb>dasy2k1: That never happened to me. Did you apply the patch to trunk and compile it yourself or did you use one of that strange patch packs out there?
21:29<Eddi|zuHause3>dasy2k1: did you mix normal and "advanced" signals?
21:29<Eddi|zuHause3>or did you even hit the "ignore signal" button?
21:31<rortom>got the openttd forked?
21:31<rortom>in the past i mean?
21:31<dasy2k1>fjb: using the rrcp patch pack, and no mix and no ignores
21:31<+glx>I'm not aware of any fork
21:32<Digitalfox>Wow so much hate from MB against Open :(
21:33<rortom>i thought there was one ...
21:33<fjb>dasy2k1: The new PBS signals are known to not work in any of that big patch packs.
21:33<Digitalfox>While I used a online translator, much was nice translated, so what a hate guy..
21:33<rortom>@glx: you want to continue to fix some protocol with the bot?
21:33<+glx>hmm no :)
21:33<fjb>Digitalfox: It is really sad.
21:33<rortom>good :)
21:34<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't read "hate" out of his posts there...
21:34<Digitalfox>fjb but I don't get why.. I mean patch isn't dead or will die because of open, also no one forces him to use it.. So why does he hets so angry about open..
21:35<fjb>But he strongly dislikes the OpenTTD project.
21:35<Eddi|zuHause3>he has some more or less valid arguments
21:35<Digitalfox>Eddi|zuHause3 please, you know very well the feeling mb has for open
21:36<Digitalfox>Eddi|zuHause3 yes he may have some valid arguments, but the way he express them, please that's ....
21:36<fjb>I gues he feels betrayed. He once stated the he gave most of the ideas how to extend TTD too the TTDP team. Now OpenTTD implemented the thing he came up with.
21:36<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a "which is better?" discussion... it can only be a flamewar...
21:38<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: a) you can't patent an idea, and b) TTDP is open source, everybody can take it and do what he wants with the features
21:38<fjb>And OpenTTD is not implementing everything as he would like it to be implemented.
21:38<dasy2k1>hmm cant repeat the crash
21:38<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: Don't tell me. MB stated that once.
21:39<fjb>dasy2k1: The patchpack you are using is broken.
21:39<Digitalfox>The thing is, IMHO I now see old patch artists producing graphics for open, and I guess MB never will accept that..
21:39<dasy2k1>fjb: in what way
21:40<DaleStan>dasy2k1: In whatever way is necessary to cause that behaviour.
21:40<Digitalfox>It's like NewGRF is a thing of patch and open can't have NewGRF just for it..
21:40<fjb>dasy2k1: YAPP (the new PBS signals) are not working as expected, and not working as trunk with only the YAPP patch.
21:40<Digitalfox>So yeah I think he is more pissed than ever, because of all the stuff that has been done in Open graphics section..
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21:41<Digitalfox>Also Zephryis posting a set on patch graphics section that doesn't work in patch.. lol I imagine what MB must have felt..
21:41<dasy2k1>well i found out what had caused my crash
21:41<DaleStan>It's like NewGRF is a thing of patch and open can't have NewGRF just for it.. <-- Remind me again how many times people have tried to convince the Open devs to choose a format other than GRF/NFO?
21:41<Digitalfox>But anyway this is very of topic.. So have a nice night everybody
21:42<fjb>But the other artists are not working for OpenTTD alone, they are working for both projects. And even the developer teams of both projects are working together.
21:42<Eddi|zuHause3>DaleStan: XML!!11!!!1einundelfzig
21:42<DaleStan>Not that I ever thought it was a good idea. Nor that I ever expected it to work.
21:43<dasy2k1>i had 2 signals pointing the wrong way so there was no protection for a train leaving the station as one was comming in
21:43<fjb>I only say that self modifying code is a very bad idea.
21:44<fjb>dasy2k1: Did you modify the signals while the trains were in that signal block?
21:44<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: you really don't want to know what some compilers could make of your code :p
21:44<+glx>self modifying code is nice (I used that on my TI85)
21:44<Digitalfox>DaleStan IMHO if when Newgrf support was first thought if should be implemented in open and there was someone with a better idea of a new format, yes I think it could had been a good idea.. But now I don't think it would be a good idea..
21:44<dasy2k1>possably i may have done, cant remember
21:45<fjb>Selfmodifying code makes the construction of a compiler diffiicult.
21:45<DaleStan>Digitalfox: No, it was never a good idea. Choosing a different format would have meant willfully breaking with all the existent graphics sets.
21:46<DaleStan>fjb: NASM doesn't seem to have much trouble turning the TTDPatch code into object files. :p
21:46<Digitalfox>DaleStan don't get me wrong I'm not saying theres a problem with NewGRF presently and how it works.. I just mean a format easier to work with..
21:46<dasy2k1>BIngo repeated my crash
21:46<dasy2k1>without modifying signals
21:47<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: why? in the compiler you can always choose to not use that feature
21:48<Eddi|zuHause3>or only use the feature in very limited ways (in this case, variable [parameter] assignment)
21:48<fjb>DaleStan: NASM is just an assambler. And I didn't speak about you assembler code, I spoke about some selfmodifying nfo actions.
21:48<Eddi|zuHause3>NFO is basically an assembler
21:48<Lakie>Not really...
21:48<+glx>fjb: it's like a static variable
21:48<DaleStan>Oh, never mind then.
21:48<DaleStan><Eddi|zuHause3> NFO is basically an assembler <-- If that.
21:49<fjb>NFO is machine language. But the selfmodifying nature of some actions makes it harder to write a compiler for an higher level language which produces nfo code.
21:50<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: i could prove you wrong, but i have not enough time
21:50<+glx>you're not forced to use this action
21:51<fjb>glx: How do you read the options of the grf without using selfmodifying code?
21:51<Eddi|zuHause3>really, the only place you can sensefully use that action is expressions with variables, and there you can do some basic code layouts that model it
21:52<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: Ofcourse you can do things like that. But that makes making the compiler more difficult. You can do almost everything with enough time.
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21:54<Eddi|zuHause3>that is hardly a problem at all [when speaking of a high level language like NDL]
21:55<dasy2k1> shows the problem, train 1 will reach the end of the line and reverse not caring that train 2 has allready blocked the path
21:55<+glx>grf parameters don't need self modifying code, but they can be used when modifying other actions
21:55<fjb>NDL is your language that gets translated to NFO?
21:55<DaleStan>As long as it's a true compiler, as opposed to an assembler, there's no problem not with just failing to tell the compiler that action 6 exists.
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21:56<+glx>dasy2k1: try with the latest YAPP version (which is not in any patch pack)
21:56<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: there's a forum thread somewhere
21:58<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: And the compiler is in a fully working state so that it can be used to develop full featured GRFs?
21:58<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: no, as explained in the thread the compiler can generate action 0 and action 1/2/3
21:58<fjb>And how do you acces the GRF parameters without using action 6?
21:58<+glx>it's possible to have a grf working the same without action 6, it just needs more actions
21:59<Eddi|zuHause3>i started to add varaction2 support, but i ran out of time
21:59<+glx>fjb: action 7, 9, D, varaction 2
22:00<DaleStan>Varaction 2 variable 7F, specifically.
22:00<Eddi|zuHause3>also, the compiler can only handle trains (feature 0), but that is rather trivial to extend
22:01<fjb>Thank you. i will have a closer look to that actions.
22:02<dasy2k1>is there a subversion command for regressing to a version?
22:02<Eddi|zuHause3>dasy2k1: svn up -r XXXX
22:09<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: I found your thread. Who tried to convince you to use XML sytax for an programming language?
22:10<rortom>what could be the reason that MP games tend to get unstable after some playing?
22:10<+glx>rortom: clean trunk?
22:10<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: that was a preliminary statement, to not get such requests in the first place :p
22:10<dasy2k1>glx: hmm, yes, the train stopps on the clean version
22:11<dasy2k1>i will put it in the patchpack thread as a bug
22:11<fjb>dasy2k1: That is why I'm calling the patchpack broken.
22:11<+glx>rortom: maybe some bugs (some fixed in 0.6.2-RC1)
22:11<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: it's a very long running and occasionally recurring discussion to use XML as a modding format instead of GRF
22:12<fjb>XML is a bad idea if you have to type the code by hand...
22:12<Eddi|zuHause3>exactly :p
22:12<fjb>People demanding XML never for that purpose never used it.
22:12<+glx>better write NFO than XML :)
22:13<fjb>Hm, it's almost on the same level...
22:13<+glx>you need to type a lot much in XML
22:13<fjb>It can have strange effects on people...
22:14<dasy2k1>anyway i need to go to bed!
22:14<dasy2k1>Gnite all
22:14<fjb>But typing to many hex codes is unhealthy.
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22:16<+glx>with a "sane" code style NFO is not hard to read or write
22:17<fjb>Surly you can get used to it when coding NFO regularly. But it is hard for somebody occasionally doing that.
22:18<+glx>I don't code NFO often, but I'm able to write test grfs when I need one
22:19<fjb>And no bigger software project gets done typing hex codes today. At least some kind of assembler is used.
22:19<DaleStan><peter1138> there is a reason it's not in xml
22:19<DaleStan><peter1138> anyone who takes the time to fully understand the system so they can write an xml structure realises it's not worth it
22:19<fjb>DaleStan: :-)
22:20<fjb>XML has its uses, but not as a programming language.
22:20<+glx>and that's true for most xxx->XML stuff
22:22<fjb>I wouldn't say that. You can do really nice things with XML. But as always you have to use the right tool at the right time.
22:23<+glx>yes for sharing datas it's nice
22:25<+glx>but only for new stuff (if an old stuff uses a working "binary" format to share data, I don't see the need to "upgrade" it to xml)
22:26<fjb>Or for describing documents. Or as a transfer fomat from one format into another.
22:27<+glx>that reminds me people suggesting to use xml for openttd savegames :)
22:28<fjb>Yeah, that would make savegame hacking much easier. Updating all your vehicles without starting the game. :-)
22:29<+glx>yeah imagine a 2048*2048 network savegame to send to clients ;)
22:31<+glx>even compressed, the xml format will increase the size
22:31<fjb>Oh, that is not really a problem. You can easily shorten the identifiers on the fly using XSLT...
22:32<fjb>Not that that approach would be really usefull...
22:32<+glx>but as xml is a text format, a 32bits integer will use way more space
22:33<fjb>Just express them as hex codes. :-)
22:33<+glx>even that way you double the size
22:33<+glx>1 byte -> 2 chars
22:34<fjb>Or BCD.
22:34<rortom>who wrote the first ottd MP code?
22:34<+glx>it's pre-r1 but I think TB did
22:35<rortom>ok, thx
22:35<rortom>we are thinking of going to use raknet for RoR :\
22:38<fjb>Then be sure not to put RoR under GPL...
22:43<rortom>i thought the license is fine?
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22:44<fjb>GPL extends to everything you are linking to your prject.
22:45<fjb>And raknet has its own license. That would get replaced by the GPL. I don't think the licence of raknet allows that.
22:46<+glx>raknet has many licences it seems :)
22:46<rortom>yes the one above and a commercial one
22:47<fjb>Does it also have the GPL? I didn't see that on their website.
22:47<+glx>no gpl
22:47<rortom>we are still searching a fitting license for RoR :/
22:48*glx goes to sleep
22:48<+glx>night all
22:48<fjb>Good idea.
22:48<fjb>glx: Good night.
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---Logclosed Tue Jul 22 00:00:49 2008