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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-07-22

---Logopened Tue Jul 22 00:00:49 2008
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02:36<Celestar>morning
02:40<Noldo>morning
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03:12<blathijs>SmatZ: Or was it a registered channel?
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03:25<planetmaker>morning
03:26<@peter1138>lo
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03:29<@peter1138>Celestar, have you finished it yet? ;)
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03:51<Mchl>hello
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05:00<Celestar>peter1138: finished with what?
05:00<Celestar>I was sitting a stupid meeting
05:01<Celestar>peter1138: just poke me when you've got time
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05:27<fmauNeko>hello
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05:38<GoneWacko>A friend of mine recently mentioned something he felt was missing from OpenTTD, and I'm wondering if it's maybe already a feature or if it's in the current source tree; Basically he wonders why the Level Land tool can't make diagonal paths (i.e. through hills)
05:41<dih>eh... forums? :-D
05:41<dih>there are patches :-P
05:45<GoneWacko>Well I don't really follow OpenTTD development that closely :-o
05:45<GoneWacko>but okay
05:45<GoneWacko>that's what I wanted to know
05:45<GoneWacko>so thanks :p
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05:56<dih>i actually thought it was amusing to point a moderator to his own forums :-P
05:57<GoneWacko>Well
05:58<GoneWacko>The OpenTTD specific moderators do a pretty good job so I don't really need to venture there unless I'm looking for something specific
05:58<GoneWacko>if I ever decide to pick up OpenTTD developing again then I'm sure I'll be more up to speed :p
05:59<dih>;-)
06:00<Celestar>peter1138: I've got a problem :P
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06:10<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13778 /branches/noai/ (14 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIIndustryType, allowing you industry access by type (Yexo)
06:10<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13779 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix r13778: MSVC projects
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06:16<@peter1138>Celestar, oh?
06:19<Celestar>peter1138: I'm still lacking an idea on how to deal "non-non-stop" things. but I'll just skip them for the time being
06:19<Noldo>Celestar: what are you doing?
06:20<@peter1138>Yes, skip those for the moment, I'd say.
06:20<Celestar>peter1138: basically, when orders are modified, a network is 'drawn', so each station knows what other stations can be reached by a very simple pathfinding process (Dijkstra or something)
06:21<@peter1138>That was what I had in mind. It may be possible to add the non-non-stop connections to that network. The network would then need to be saved, however.
06:21<Celestar>yes
06:21<blathijs>Celestar: What are you discussing?
06:21<Noldo>seems like passanger destinations
06:21<Celestar>we can still add them later. I think for a first shot, we need no non-non-stops nor do we need different speeds (i.e. aircraft vs trains or so)
06:21<Celestar>Noldo: correct
06:22<@peter1138>Yes, costs can be added later, I think.
06:22<blathijs>Ah, passengers shouldn't want to go somewhere that's not reachable?
06:23<blathijs>And adding transfers (that's what you mean by non-stop I think?) to the equation adds complexity :-)
06:23*blathijs off to lunch now
06:23<Celestar>blathijs: Transfers are instrisic :)
06:23<@peter1138>blathijs: non-non-stop is the stations that a train visits that are not on its schedule.
06:23<@peter1138>If you built up a network map directly from orders then they do not get included.
06:23<@peter1138>*build
06:24<Celestar>peter1138: the question is how to generate passengers. One idea of mine (for passengers/mail) was: Houses generate two types of passengers: local (same town) and non-local (per city. Amount by city distance and size). The non-local passengers are then split to the different target stations per city.
06:25<ln>13:21 < Noldo> seems like passanger destinations <-- English only
06:25<Celestar>peter1138: this would result in fractional passengers, which could be rounded down ..
06:25<@peter1138>Hmm, if you say that larger towns receive more passengers then larger towns automatically get more local traffic than smaller towns.
06:26<Celestar>peter1138: well, London has more local traffic than Nottingham, right? :)
06:26<@peter1138>Exactly.
06:27<Celestar>that was the idea behind it
06:27<@peter1138>I don't actually know, but with that rule you get more people going to big towns than to small towns.
06:27<@peter1138>Which makes sense to me.
06:27<Celestar>so each station has p passengers to station s, q passengers to station r, and so on
06:27<Noldo>also more people going out of large towns
06:27<Celestar>and towns who are better connected also produce more passengers
06:28<Celestar>s/who/whick
06:28<@peter1138>Noldo: that's already handled by passenger generation.
06:28<Celestar>s/whick/which
06:29<Noldo>hmm
06:30<Noldo>the situtation is not symmetrical if the destination is by town/city and generation is by house
06:30<@peter1138>Does it need to be symmetrical?
06:30<Celestar>Noldo: Destination is by town/city which is by sum over houses. So it is symmetrical
06:31<@peter1138>Indeed, that too :)
06:31<Celestar>peter1138: the question is this: when does the 'pathfinding' start: When a cargopacket is about to be boarded or when it is generated (which would need re-assessing if the network changes)
06:31<Noldo>only if all houses are on some station's area
06:31<Celestar>Noldo: destination is by houses in town which are in some station's area :D
06:32<Celestar>each station would need to keep track of it's population. That's easy to do.
06:32<@peter1138>Well if there's no station in a town then don't generate passengers for there.
06:33<Celestar>peter1138: I *think* by boarding would be better. Then we can merge identical packets before boarding, reducing the total number.
06:33<Noldo>so destination is actually by station?
06:33<Celestar>peter1138: well yes
06:33<Celestar>Noldo: destination is actually by station. But 'station' depends on population in station's catchment area
06:34<Noldo>ok, now it's starting to work :)
06:34<Noldo>only if there was a coding machine that could code as we speak
06:36<Celestar>peter1138: the question is what to do with the fractional passengers we (might) generate.
06:37<Celestar>(desyncs)
06:37<Celestar>we could use fixed-point arithmetic however.
06:37<Noldo>are they always something like x/8
06:38<Celestar>Noldo: that's the acceptance
06:38<Noldo>ok
06:39<Celestar>Noldo: I'm talking about this: Say a house generates 23 passengers: how to devided them about the destinations? We could just devide the proportinally (which will result in fractions), by random number, or weighted round-robin.
06:39<Noldo>weighted rr
06:40<blathijs>peter1138: But, when a station is not on a train's schedule, it can't be guaranteed to visit it, right?
06:40<Celestar>blathijs: depends.
06:40<Celestar>blathijs: I think we can deal with that later.
06:41<blathijs>My hunch would be to not deal with that, just limit to order destinations
06:41<Celestar>blathijs: yea
06:42<Noldo>could there be somekind of auto add to schedule
06:42<Noldo>there might be some city local tram routes that are easy to set-up with just two orders
06:43<Celestar>Noldo: the auto-add is no problem. The problem is auto-remove
06:44<@peter1138>*nod*
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06:45<Celestar>peter1138: ok. how do we try this: make a branch, or play in trunk? :P
06:50<@peter1138>Hmm, don't know.
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06:58<Celestar>peter1138: hm .. the route mapping doesn't influence anything else of the code ...
06:58<Celestar>hm .. btw we have a working fixed-point data type
06:58<Celestar>I just remembered :D
06:59<@peter1138>:)
06:59<Celestar>it's in the balance branch
07:01<@peter1138>I tried to figure out how to represent the network map, but I failed :(
07:02<Celestar>peter1138: isn't there something usable in the stl?
07:04<Celestar>hm.. not really
07:05<Celestar>we need some multi-associative thingy
07:05<Noldo>it's a graph isn't it?
07:05<Celestar>Noldo: yes, it is
07:06<Celestar>we could use the BGL
07:06<Noldo>you don't suffer from boost allergy then?
07:06<@peter1138>What's BGL?
07:07<Celestar>Boost Graph Library
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07:08<Celestar>I'm just reading through the documentation
07:08<rortom>hi all :)
07:08<rortom>what has boost not? :p
07:08<planetmaker>Celestar: got a link for me?
07:09<@peter1138>http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_35_0/libs/graph/doc/table_of_contents.html
07:09<planetmaker>ty, peter1138
07:09<rortom>is it for a tool or realtime?
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07:09<@peter1138>Realtime.
07:10<@peter1138>Ish.
07:10<rortom>wow, nice :)
07:10<Celestar>peter1138: we could aslo write our on graphs
07:10<rortom>i would like to see that working :D
07:10<Celestar>but the BGL is pretty powerful
07:10<Celestar>and it contains all the pathfinders
07:11<planetmaker>Quick question: is there a heightmap of the map available or would I need to generate that, should I need one?
07:11<rortom>planetmaker: waht are you doing, if i may ask?
07:11<rortom>*what
07:11<planetmaker>I try to place rivers
07:12<@peter1138>Well the height is stored in the map array...
07:12<Celestar>map_type_and_height
07:12<@peter1138>TileHeight(tile) kind of thing, actually.
07:12<@peter1138>So you could just use the usual accessors for it.
07:12<planetmaker>peter1138: yeah, for each tile. Actually what I need is a 2D array of height which I could use gradient filtering and smoothing on :)
07:13*Celestar wonders where to find the BGL's license
07:13<planetmaker>kinda global operations in order to get a good path.
07:13<Celestar>hm :S
07:13<rortom>Celestar: i bet its the boost license?
07:13<Celestar>BGL has an own license
07:13<@peter1138>Well you can generate that yourself.
07:13<Celestar>rortom: yes :)
07:14<planetmaker>peter1138: yeah, I suppose so :). Just checking in order to not re-invent the wheel :)
07:14<rortom>http://www.boost.org/LICENSE_1_0.txt
07:15<Celestar>so all we need to do is to include the License
07:15<rortom>IIRC its a bit over BSD
07:15<Celestar>pretty similar
07:16<rortom>yeah
07:16<Celestar>it's not a showstopper, is it?
07:16<planetmaker>to me it reads like "use and just tell you used it". Should be fine, eh?
07:16<Celestar>planetmaker: yeah
07:17<Celestar>how portable is the BGL?
07:18<planetmaker>anyway, back to work :)
07:18<Celestar>then again, paxdest will not work on your mobile for some years to come
07:18*peter1138 is able to test with MSVC2008
07:18<rortom>what are you going to do with BGL?
07:18<Celestar>rortom: talking about paxdest
07:19<@peter1138>Routing of cargo packets.
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07:19*peter1138 wonders if Yapf can do the work.
07:19<Noldo>well why not
07:20<Celestar>peter1138: well yapf can do the pathfinding, but it needs a graph ..
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07:20<@peter1138>Yeah, the representation is the issue.
07:20<rortom>paxdest = passenger destinations?
07:21<@peter1138>Yes.
07:21<rortom>nice stuff :)
07:21<rortom>whats about the patch that is existing?
07:21<Noldo>it has mp issues
07:22<Celestar>rortom: apart from the fact that you need a supercomputer to run it on a large map and that it doesn't work in MP?
07:22<rortom>ouch
07:22<rortom>thats a killer argument
07:22<rortom>also, is openttd now mixed c / c++?
07:23<rortom>as i saw the new windowing system
07:23<@peter1138>Mixed, but it's all compiled as C++
07:23<rortom>good to hear :D
07:24<ln>some of it is Objective-C++
07:24<@peter1138>Yes, but nobody maintains that ;p
07:25<@peter1138>@seen bjarni
07:25<@DorpsGek>peter1138: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 15 hours, 17 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
07:25<ln>famous last words
07:26<Celestar>peter1138: I could give the BGL a shot if you wish :)
07:27<Celestar>hm .. we could use things like the MST to suggest network optimizations :P
07:27<rortom>mhm what about the copy+paste tool patch?
07:28<rortom>whats the reason its on hold?
07:28<Celestar>wasn't that desyncing as well?
07:28<rortom>:\
07:29<rortom>so why does that happen if the code is for all the same?
07:29<rortom>also, why has ottd no resync phase? :)
07:29<rortom>(RoR has neither...)
07:29<Celestar>rortom: because we don'T have a client-server server
07:30<Celestar>rortom: we have a system where the engines of all peers must be perfectly synchroized at any time
07:30<Celestar>which includes the pnrgs
07:31<rortom>mhm, yes
07:31<rortom>i understand
07:33<rortom>so there is no way to identify the reason why something descyncs i guess?
07:34<@peter1138>There is; lots of testing.
07:34<rortom>sure, but not direct indicators
07:34<@peter1138>Correct.
07:35<@peter1138>A desync is a bug, therefore any desync should ultimately be fixed.
07:35<rortom>also why are you all allergic against code documentation? :p
07:35<@peter1138>It documents itself ;)
07:35<Noldo>classic
07:36<rortom>;)
07:37<rortom>i tried to understand how map loading works ... :/
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07:42<fjb>Hello
07:45<@peter1138>rortom, it's a basic RIFF structure ;)
07:45<@peter1138>There's a marker at the beginning for compression.
07:45<rortom>haha
07:45<rortom>yes, saw that
07:45<rortom>*just* need to uncompress and then read the chunks i guess
07:46<@peter1138>Yes, *just* that :D
07:46<@peter1138>The chunks are described in their related code files.
07:47<@peter1138>In _*_chunk_handlers and _*_desc
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07:48<ror_tom>13:47:33| <@peter1138> In _*_chunk_handlers and _*_desc
07:48<ror_tom>13:47:34| * Disconnected
07:48<ror_tom>did i miss something?
07:48<@peter1138>Nope.
07:48-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:49<ror_tom>ok, thanks ;)
07:49-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
07:49<@peter1138>Anyway, the saveload code is very old, written before documentation existed.
07:50<@peter1138>In about 4500BC.
07:52<ror_tom>:p
07:53<@peter1138>Gah, bloody interest rates.
07:53<bowman>hehe that got me reading about riff/aiff/iff
07:54<bowman>had no idea that iff was a joint electronic arts/commodore creation
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08:18<N1ghtCrawler>Hello, how do i "sell" the goods that the factorys produce?
08:19<+glx>send them to a town that accept them
08:19<planetmaker>N1ghtCrawler: transport them to a station which accepts them. Towns do.
08:20<Celestar>peter1138: well?
08:21<N1ghtCrawler>ahh, it was just the towns near that did not accept them
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08:25<N1ghtCrawler>Damn good game, railtroads are tricky tho.
08:25<Celestar>N1ghtCrawler: in what way
08:27<@peter1138>Well what?
08:27*peter1138 has been out, heh.
08:28<Celestar>peter1138: shall I give BGL a try?
08:28<N1ghtCrawler>Celestar: To co-ordinate everything, so they dont stuck
08:28<Gekz>stuck?
08:28<Gekz>lol
08:28<@peter1138>Sure.
08:29<Gekz>as a verb.
08:32<dih>hello rortom
08:42<Celestar>N1ghtCrawler: well. use YAPP :D
08:42<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13780 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_road.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: AIRoad.AreRoadTilesConnected() returned true even if road vehicle could not go from tile_from to tile_to due to one-way road.
08:43<Ammler>@seen SpComb
08:43<@DorpsGek>Ammler: SpComb was last seen in #openttd 15 hours and 58 seconds ago: <SpComb> ls -lahna
08:43*SpComb yawns
08:43<Ammler>hmm
08:43<Ammler>?
08:43<dih>lol
08:43<Ammler>:-)
08:43<SpComb>de-lurk'd
08:43<Celestar>the boost documentation sucks a bit
08:43<Ammler>SpComb: I am PMing with Oskar (alias eis_os)
08:43<SpComb><insert five pages of compiler error message templates>
08:44<SpComb>Ammler: tt-forums PMs?
08:44<Ammler>yes, do you understand german?
08:44<SpComb>I do
08:49<Celestar>peter1138: when we store the graph in memory, do we optimize for speed or for space?
08:50<Celestar>peter1138: or some compromise?
08:52<rortom>hi dih
08:52<dih>you got any stats yet?
08:53<Celestar>dih: ?
08:53<dih>rortom is building stats
08:53<dih>or at least capable of
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08:55<rortom>sure i have
08:55<rortom>http://openttdserver.de/server_stats/
08:55<rortom>updated daily :)
08:56<rortom>just not sum'ed up or recorded :\
08:56<dih>is that an average?
08:56<rortom>no
08:56<dih>:-(
08:56<rortom>still have to code recording
08:56<dih>could you write those details to a sql db?
08:56<rortom>was busy with the underlying python lib
08:56<rortom>sure
08:56<rortom>thats waht i woul do :)
08:56<rortom>*what i would
08:56<dih>and then for each run just add stats and fetch the average values
08:56<rortom>yep :)
08:57<@peter1138>Celestar: Does it matter yet?
08:57<@peter1138>Hmm, what was the replacement for BindCString?
08:58<Celestar>peter1138: well, not today ...
09:01<dih>rortom, you have percentage of servers next to number of servers, but not for clients
09:01<dih>that would still be a nice addon :-D
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09:03<@peter1138>Yay, it built :D
09:03<+glx>peter1138: STR_RAW_STRING and SetDParamSomething (where you path the pointer)
09:04<+glx>s/path/pass
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09:05<@peter1138>Thanks. It just forced me to do the drop down list entry properly. :)
09:06<+glx>STR_JUST_RAW_STRING and SetDParamStr()
09:06<Celestar>hm ...
09:06<Celestar>this kinda sucks
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09:14<@peter1138>What, BGL?
09:15<@peter1138>Hmm, I need a better way of passing this list around :o
09:16<Celestar>peter1138: what list?
09:17<ln>send it by snail mail
09:20<@peter1138>A list of strings for GRF Presets.
09:20<SpComb>Ammler: so what's with eis_os and german?
09:21<Ammler>I asked him about using the Crawler for the GRF infos
09:22<Ammler>as it is useless now, because about 40% isn't listed.
09:23<@peter1138>And you know whose fault that is...
09:24<SpComb>there's two reasons for that
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09:32<Celestar>meh how do I include std::list?
09:33<@peter1138>#include <list>
09:34<rortom>i built a grf crawler with those stats
09:34<rortom>it should work well ...
09:34<rortom>must leave bbl :)
09:35-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7D54C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
09:35<Ammler>[15:23] <peter1138> And you know whose fault that is... <-- it should become wikistyle, imo
09:35<Ammler>some authors are just too lazy or don't care at all.
09:36<@peter1138>Well...
09:37<@peter1138>I have often thought of adding missing entries, but didn't because they're not mine.
09:37<Ammler>yeah, and the entry belongs to you, so the owner can't alter if he likes after.
09:37<@peter1138>Right, that built :D
09:37<@peter1138>Indeed.
09:38<@peter1138>Haha, and that crashed :o
09:38<Ammler>I like the way CIA does it
09:38<Ammler>it is wiki style, but you can gain exclusive rights for your entries.
09:40<@peter1138>By "wiki style" do you actually mean "can be editted by anonymous people" ?
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09:46<SpComb>peter1138: you could use the tt-forums users database, just like GRFCrawler does
09:46<@peter1138>For what?
09:46<Ammler>peter1138: well, possible but not needed, we do only allow registered users to edit, but more important is the versioning.
09:47<SpComb>the second reason most GRFs are missing is because there's not a very large incentive for GRF authors to put their graphics there, not very many people will complain if they don't
09:47<@peter1138>Problem is GRF Crawler has not been used as a database of GRFs.
09:47<Ammler>we = openttdcoop wiki
09:47<@peter1138>There are no separate entries for DOS vs Windows versions, for example.
09:48<Ammler>there is for filename, not for download
09:48*SpComb shall continue work on his GRF-downloader tonight
09:48<SpComb>( http://qmsk.srv.myottd.net/~terom/stuff/openttd-newgrf-download.png )
09:49<Ammler>SpComb: they should be saved in a format not useable for single palyer :-)
09:51-!-Yorick [~Y0R1CK@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
09:51<Yorick>are revisions 13775 and 13776 ported 0.6?
09:51<Ammler>peter1138: if grfcrawler doesn't do it, we (openttdcoop) will create such repo, maybe...
09:52<Ammler>or would openttd.org do it officially?
09:54<@peter1138>Well we've always said we won't do automatic downloading, so that's probably unlikely.
09:54<SpComb>I wouldn't set that decision in stone yet, too many unresolved questions
09:55<SpComb>nobody's proved that it's impossible
09:55<Yorick>I don't think it's very hard to do either
09:56<SpComb>well, it is, it's a complicated matter, and implementing it in a satisfactory way so that it becomes succesfull isn't trivial
09:57<Yorick>we already have a list of newgrfs by server
09:57<Yorick>just a search facility by md5sum
09:57<planetmaker>[15:55] <Yorick> I don't think it's very hard to do either <- the most difficult part is to actually *do* it.
09:57<SpComb>it's a complicated question, and any implementation is going to be pretty useless unless it's integrated into OpenTTD trunk
09:57<planetmaker>Principally I could build a settlement on Mars...
09:57<SpComb>Yorick: yes, that part is easy, and I've already done it, look at my screenshot
09:57<SpComb>it doesn't actually download the .grfs yet, but it does get a list of URLs to them
09:58<@peter1138>SpComb, the reason for not doing it was not technical.
09:58<SpComb>I'm aware of that
09:58<@peter1138>Okay, Yorick, the reason for not doing it was not technical.
09:58<Ammler>peter1138: not the download repo
09:58<Ammler>more the "grf" list
09:58<Yorick>peter1138: no, it was at the licensing side
09:59<Yorick>what if only authors that do not mind upload the grfs to the repo?
09:59<SpComb>the licensing side and the opinions of the NewGRF authors
09:59<@peter1138>Ammler: it's fairly easy to just store every GRF ever, by GRF ID and md5sum...
09:59<Celestar>planetmaker: if you do, please poke me, I'll help
09:59<planetmaker>hehe :)
10:00<planetmaker>With a one-way or with a return ticket, Celestar? ;)
10:00<Celestar>planetmaker: honestly? not sure yet :P
10:00<Celestar>depends on whether $GF plans to join or not, I guess
10:00<planetmaker>:) hehe
10:00<Ammler>peter1138: indeed, I thought about that.. (renaming all GRFs in the pack)
10:00<Ammler>but I fear, some authors wouldn't like that)
10:01<Celestar>do we have plans to put yapp in trunk at some point?
10:01<Yorick>yes
10:02<planetmaker>Celestar: I hope :P
10:02<Ammler>Yorick: I guess, he means we=devs
10:02<planetmaker>I hope it was bad timing and he agreed with you, Ammler :)
10:02<Yorick>Ammler: peter1138 claimed to fix & commit it after test round by (I forgot)
10:03<Yorick>and I agree with Ammler
10:03<planetmaker>Brian
10:03<Ammler>btw, you might edit the roadmap, is looks almost empty
10:03<Yorick>it ís almost empty
10:03<@peter1138>That was kind of a joke...
10:03<planetmaker>:P
10:04*planetmaker thinks peter1138 is a funny guy :)
10:04<Ammler>also the dynmaic engine pool could added, so you have something almost done...
10:05<Celestar>WEEEHAAA
10:05<Celestar>> bin/openttd -snull -d routenetwork=2
10:05<Celestar>dbg: [routenetwork] Vertex added to route network
10:05<planetmaker>?
10:05<Yorick>paxdest
10:06<Ammler>mäh
10:06<Ammler>you mean cargo dest :-)
10:06<Ammler>but that one is too risky
10:07<Yorick>hmm...I forgot what I was doing
10:07<Celestar>Ammler: what is too risky?
10:07*Yorick codes a company list in python
10:08<Ammler>adding destination to the roadmap :-)
10:08<Celestar>peter1138: I'm currently assuming that a vehicle 1) can reach all stations on its schedule and 2) does reach all stations on its schedule (i.e. no skipping by conditionals for now)
10:09<@peter1138>*nod*
10:11<@peter1138>Ammler, actually we don't really care about road maps :P
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10:16<Ammler>well, but it would look nice for "outsiders"
10:17-!-mucht_work [~Martin@143.50.125.24] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
10:17<Ammler>not everyone is here all the time...
10:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13781 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: NewGRF presets, selected by a drop down list in the NewGRF window. Presets are saved in the config file.
10:17<planetmaker>[16:16] <Ammler> well, but it would look nice for "outsiders" <-- I agree
10:19<planetmaker>It gives the first-hand impression of a busy community - wether you care about the roadmap or stick to it doesn't matter too much as long as there's at least some correlation
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10:19<Ammler>Celestar: are you still working on balancing?
10:20<Ammler>isn't that a GRF issue?
10:23<Ammler>you had a really nice (and working) roadmap for 0.6
10:23<rortom>mh what about the grf crawler?
10:24<rortom>i can built one with the stats im gathering
10:24<Ammler>?
10:24<Ammler>we spoke about the database
10:24<Ammler>http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net
10:25<rortom>i heard it was not working or so?
10:25<Ammler>well, not ALL GRFs are listed
10:26<Ammler>you can't do that automatically...
10:26<rortom>mhm we can enhance the crawler with my stats info
10:26<rortom>like most used, etc
10:26<Ammler>yeah, that would be nice
10:26<SpComb>rortom: do you have more info about your stats somewhere?
10:26<SpComb>I gather you wrote a python script to connect to OpenTTD servers and do... stuff?
10:26<Ammler>SpComb: ottdserver.de
10:26<Yorick>SpComb: #openttd-python
10:27<SpComb>"Firefox can't find the server at www.ottdserver.de."
10:27<rortom>http://openttdserver.de/forum/
10:27<rortom>-ottd + openttd ;)
10:27<Celestar>Ammler: on hold
10:27<Ammler>http://www.openttdserver.de/server_stats/
10:27<rortom>yup
10:27<rortom>bbl
10:27<Yorick>he wrote a script that can connect to openttd servers and do... stuff
10:27<rortom>~20 minutes
10:27<Ammler>sorry
10:28<XeryusTC>!playercount
10:28-!-XeryusTC was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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10:29<XeryusTC>heh lol :
10:31<SpComb>OpenTTD archiecture bonus question, worth 5 points... is it possible to do async network stuff in the background while the GUI's running and responding?
10:31<Ammler>there should be "one" repo for all GRFs, which can make stats about amount of downloads and used (at least on servers)
10:32<Yorick>SpComb: depends on what you call 'responding'
10:32<Rubidium>SpComb: the download map does that, doesn't it?
10:32<Ammler>I guess, that is why some prefer downloading from tt-forums, to have the stats for downloads.
10:35<Ammler>we now work really much on just keeping our GRF Table up2date, I would like to share that work... and replace the wiki page with a proper database
10:39<Celestar>when I have "using namespace" at some point, can I terminate that, or does that run to end-of-file?
10:44<Celestar>wow that was a killer :P
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10:47<rortom>Celestar: AFAIK until EOF
10:47<blathijs>Celestar: perhaps you can put { using namespace foo; .... } or something
10:47<hylje>THE BRACES
10:47<blathijs>not sure if you can randomly begin a new scope at global scope, though
10:47<Celestar>blathijs: yeah, or just type std:: the three times :P
10:47<blathijs>Celestar: Which you should be doing in the first place :-p
10:48<Celestar>:P
10:48<@peter1138>using namespace considered harmful
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10:49<rortom>just dont use it ;)
10:49<@peter1138>Quite.
10:49<Celestar>peter1138: just for info. the route map will need to be saved.
10:50<@peter1138>Yeah
10:50<@peter1138>£699.00
10:50<@peter1138>Normal price £699.95
10:50<@peter1138>Impressive reduction...
10:51<Celestar>lol
10:51-!-nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
10:51<@peter1138>Who makes the best LCD TVs at the moment...
10:53-!-fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway
10:53<ben_goodger>peter1138: if the quality of their LCD monitors are anything to judge by, you won't go far wrong with samsung...
10:55<Celestar>peter1138: doing progress
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10:56<rortom>also: back
10:57<rortom>is the grfcrawler source code lying anywhere?
10:57-!-Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
10:57<rortom>also, it is just a user maintained database?
10:57<Yorick>try #tycoon
10:57<@orudge>rortom: grfcrawler is written by Oskar
10:57<@orudge>it's not open source as such
10:57<@orudge>users can submit GRF files to it
10:57<@orudge>it's linked in with the forum user database
10:57<rortom>:/
10:58<@orudge>?
10:58<rortom>http://www.openttdserver.de/server_stats/
10:58<rortom>i have that ^
10:58<rortom>and would want to integrate :)
10:58<rortom>also thanks for your effort with openttd :)
10:59<@orudge>Integrate it with what?
10:59<Celestar>I don't understand std::map
10:59<@orudge>there's an XML API for grfcrawler
10:59<@orudge>if that's what you want
10:59<Celestar>StationVertexMap.insert(std::pair<StationID, Vertex>(StationID(new_order.GetDestination()), Vertex()) );
10:59<Celestar>why does this fail :S
10:59*orudge uses it in the new Repository
10:59<hylje>Celestar: too much C++
10:59<hylje>:-)
10:59<Ammler>[16:59] * orudge uses it in the new Repository ?
11:00<Ammler>linky?
11:00<@orudge>well, the new Repository is still under development
11:00<hylje>*teh* Repository?!
11:00<@orudge>http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/xml.php?api=search&q=GRFIDGOESHERE&type=grfidlist
11:00<rortom>what is the new repository?
11:00<@orudge>returns details on the GRF files with the XMLIDs (separated by spaces) there
11:01<@orudge>It's the new version of the Ultimate Transport Tycoon Game Repository
11:01<rortom>mhm
11:01<@orudge>currently at http://misc.owenrudge.net/ttgame/ and sorely out of date
11:01<Prof_Frink>s/Rep/Supp/
11:01<rortom>ah :)
11:01<@orudge>the new version can parse TTD and OpenTTD games to produce maps, get all sorts of details and statistics, and more
11:01<@orudge>it's also tidier, more organised
11:01<@orudge>and generally better
11:01<Ammler>orudge: but also not the idea to have all GRF listed?
11:01<@orudge>it's just not quite finished yet
11:01<rortom>mhm
11:02<Celestar>hylje: I'm trying to do this properly
11:02<rortom>what if i create an automated service that collects all grf infos? :|
11:02<hylje>people will hate you for stealing their property
11:02<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13782 /trunk/src/train.h: -Cleanup: removed a useless declaration
11:02<@orudge>[16:01:42] <Ammler> orudge: but also not the idea to have all GRF listed? <-- what do you mean?
11:02<@orudge>the UTTGR will check for GRF files used in TTDPatch and OpenTTD games
11:02<rortom>@ hylje: yes, that is what i was afraid of
11:02<@orudge>and give a list of the ones it knows about
11:02<rortom>IMHO thats stupid
11:03<@orudge>(checking its own internal database, and the Repository)
11:03<hylje>it is
11:03<Ammler>orudge: it won't be a replacment for GRFCrawler?
11:03<@orudge>*GRFCrawler, not Repository
11:03<@orudge>no
11:03<@orudge>it's for saved games
11:03<@orudge>not GRF files
11:03<@orudge>saved games, scenarios, etc
11:03<rortom>mhm
11:03<@orudge>although, you can upload GRF files if you want
11:03<@orudge>and then link to those from GRFCrawler
11:03<rortom>mhm i should really code that grf repository
11:03<@orudge>well
11:03<Ammler>orudge: how will you handle GRFs which aren't listed there?
11:04<Yorick>get their names from the servers?
11:04<@orudge>Ammler: well, at the moment, it just doesn't show them. Either that or it just shows the GRFID, can't remember.
11:04<@orudge>Yorick: it's nothing to do with servers
11:04<@orudge>it operates on saved games/scenarios
11:04<@orudge>rortom: well, the Repository can handle GRF files, as I say
11:04<@orudge>although its primary purpose is saved games, etc
11:05<rortom>mhm
11:05<rortom>was auto grf download a topic ever?
11:05<Ammler>so you will analyze saves, which settings and GRFs are used?
11:05<hylje>GRFs come implicitly through saves
11:05<@orudge>Ammler: yes.
11:05<@orudge>I sent you a preview link, Ammler, privately
11:05<Ammler>cool!
11:05<hylje>rortom: yes, but people will hate you for stealing your property :-(
11:05<Ammler>got that
11:06<@orudge>look through the browse feature
11:06<@orudge>it'll be a bit slow, as it's on my ADSL connection
11:06<hylje>some people get strange satisfaction through making people run through hoops
11:06<@orudge>the Repository goes into perhaps too much detail... every industry and town in every saved game is recorded ;)
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11:07<Celestar>GAAAAHHH
11:07*Celestar is the biggest idiot of the century
11:08<Mchl>which century?
11:08<Celestar>any
11:08<hylje>all
11:08<Celestar>type a; b = something; if (a = something_else) ....
11:08<Mchl>nasty
11:08<Mchl>takes centuries to fin
11:08<Mchl>fin
11:08<Mchl>find
11:09<Mchl>i'm loosing d
11:11<hylje>that's why assignment-expressions are awesome
11:11<hylje>think of the possibilities!
11:13<Celestar>dbg: [routenetwork] Attempting to add vertex to route network
11:13<Celestar>dbg: [routenetwork] Vertex added to route network for station 0
11:13<Celestar>dbg: [routenetwork] Attempting to add vertex to route network
11:13<Celestar>dbg: [routenetwork] Vertex added to route network for station 1
11:13<Celestar>dbg: [routenetwork] Attempting to add vertex to route network
11:13<Celestar>dbg: [routenetwork] Reusing vertex 0 for station 0. No vertex added
11:13<Celestar>WEE!!
11:13<Celestar>I'm going home. cu tomorrow :D
11:13<@peter1138>What!
11:13<@peter1138>Don't go :o
11:14*peter1138 needs destinations :o
11:14<rortom>lol :p
11:14<Celestar>peter1138: it won't be finished today.
11:14<Celestar>will resume tomorrow morningish
11:14<@peter1138>:)
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11:19<Eddi|zuHause3><Celestar> peter1138: when we store the graph in memory, do we optimize for speed or for space? <- i'd say on halfway modern systems, speed is the bigger issue
11:20<hylje>both
11:20<hylje>with a slider to configure
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>unless you're talking about handheld devices or something :p
11:20<frosch123>compile time slider :p
11:20<hylje>some people run OTTD with obsolete hardware
11:23<DJNekkid>peter1138 and Celestar: are u guys trying to implement cargo destenations?
11:23<rortom>DJNekkid: yes they do
11:23*DJNekkid jumps up and down and cant wait for a proper version of such
11:23<Ammler>:-)
11:24-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7C157.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
11:24<DJNekkid>now paxdest in opencoop, that will be awsome :)
11:24<DJNekkid>together with the 2cc set ;)
11:24<hylje>we tried it back when it was hot
11:24<hylje>but too crashy
11:24<DJNekkid>well, that was the patch thingy?
11:24<Yorick>and it slowed down
11:25<DJNekkid>not something "proper" from the devs ;)
11:25<hylje>yes
11:42<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13783 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (6 files): [NoAI] -Add: added AIVehicle::IsArticulated() and AIEngine::IsArticulated()
11:43<Eddi|zuHause3><hylje> some people run OTTD with obsolete hardware <- still, as long as they have something above 8MB of RAM, speed is the bigger issue :p
11:43<Eddi|zuHause3>and if they really have space issues, we just tell them to play smaller maps
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12:13<@peter1138>Speaking of space.
12:13*SpComb wanders through the exquisite maze of OpenTTD NewGRF code
12:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13784 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace_gui.cpp build_vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Truncate vehicle names in purchase list to width of window.
12:14<SpComb>didn't your mother tell you that global variables are bad?
12:14<planetmaker>:)
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12:15*Yorick wonders what SpComb is looking at
12:15<Yorick>s/at/for
12:16<SpComb>trying to figure out how I would be able to build a separate list of NewGRFs used for network clients
12:16<SpComb>the list would also need to include GRFs from cache/*.tar, not just data/*
12:16<Yorick>PACKET_UDP_CLIENT_GET_NEWGRFS ?
12:17<SpComb>no, no
12:17<Yorick>ok
12:17<SpComb>there's a set of .grfs in data/, and a set of .grfs in cache/
12:17<SpComb>I want games where openttd is acting as a network client to also load grfs from cache/, but not other kinds of games
12:18<Yorick>oh :)
12:18<@peter1138>data/cache ? heh
12:19<Ammler>isn't it distributing, if you download the grfs just for network gameplay?
12:20<+glx>it is as you can easily copy grfs from cache/
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12:22<SpComb>Ammler: yes, it is and will always remain distributing
12:23<Ammler>there will be very fast howto's in the forums for "How to copy GRFs from cache to data..."
12:23<SpComb>peter1138: well, I actually added a new "CACHE_DIR" to `enum Subdirectory`, I could have stuck them in data/cache, but then that would be distributing them for non-network games
12:23<Eddi|zuHause3>you can add encryption ;)
12:24<Ammler>:-)
12:24<SpComb>Ammler: well, yes, it's perfectly possible to copy them from cache to data, it's just a `cp`
12:24<SpComb>but this is just in the form of a safe default - I presume most NewGRFs would just be downloaded normally into data/
12:24<@peter1138>Implement a memory file system...
12:25<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause3: "encryption" isn't an option worth discussing in this case
12:25<SpComb>peter1138: and download the NewGRFs every time? Ugh
12:25<Yorick>peter1138: yes, for the 8MB people?
12:25<@peter1138>Yeah ;)
12:25<Eddi|zuHause3>hence the ";)"
12:25<SpComb>myes
12:25<Ammler>still distributing... (also memory)
12:25<SpComb>of course
12:26<SpComb>but it's mostly a question of what the intention behind the distribution is
12:26<SpComb>iirc, PikkaBird said "only for network play" when he gave you permission to include his .grfs in the ottd grfpack
12:26<SpComb>this is mostly with things like that in mind
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12:26<SpComb>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=578888#p578888
12:27<Ammler>indeed.
12:27<SpComb>"the purpose of the site is files for multiplayer (ie, it's not just a general repository of GRFs).
12:27<planetmaker>...stupid as a restriction "only for network usage" may be... :S
12:27<SpComb>"
12:27<SpComb>so the *purpose* of this download mechanism is to do multiplayer games
12:27<Eddi|zuHause3>i'll remind you again, by german law "distributing" must involve the movement of a physical object (book, dvd, etc.)
12:27<Ammler>planetmaker: the problem is, you have a "proper" setup on joining a network game
12:28<Ammler>if you just download the pack and load it, you might fail with setup.
12:28<Eddi|zuHause3>electronic network access is "only copying"
12:28<SpComb>there's nothing to stop people from making some kind of tool to just copy the stuff from cache to data, but I doubt that's going to make the NewGRF-distributing situation any worse than it already is
12:28<Ammler>!s/have/should have/
12:28<SpComb>have?
12:28<planetmaker>Ammler: yes. My comment was more aimed at "why not allow people to just play with grf"? - however a person may define "play" for him/herself
12:29<Ammler>SpComb: my "have" :-)
12:29<SpComb>ah, I tried to find it but missed that
12:30<Eddi|zuHause3>apart from licensing issues, one of the main concerns about automatic newgrf download was the circulation of old versions
12:30-!-Doorslammer|OTTD [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-115-187.prem.tmns.net.au] has quit []
12:30<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause3: not an issue either, with the concept of a central metadata repo
12:30<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause3: well. I guess it cannot get worse, can it?
12:30<Ammler>SpComb: yeah, if you have to manually copy the files from cache to the data dir, it is like installing the grfpack...
12:30<SpComb>if you store the version history in there, then you can implement things in the client that would improve the current situation drastically
12:31<SpComb>like automatically checking for newer versions of the NewGRFs currently in use
12:31<Eddi|zuHause3>planetmaker: the idea is that when the author wants to not support old versions, he just removes the download links for them, so over short or long, the people will use the new version
12:31<Ammler>SpComb: no, not automatically update
12:31<SpComb>Ammler: and then on top of that, the files in the cache are called like "6D620401-C5ACB6D5536A464FD78871D91840A35F.tar"
12:31<Ammler>there might still be servers which need the old version.
12:31<Eddi|zuHause3>especially server owners will have to upgrade when they get a lot of complaints about "i cannot find this version of the grf anywhere"
12:32<SpComb>Ammler: well, I haven't given the implementation any thought, my point is that there's potential for improvement
12:32<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause3: I'm aware. But no single person will continuously scan the zillion download sites for each of his grf.
12:32<SpComb>it could just annoy the server operator into upgrading the NewGRFs that they are using :)
12:32<planetmaker>Resulting in rather more outdated grf than just checking once a central place where all grf are kept with an up to date version.
12:32<Eddi|zuHause3>SpComb: nobody cares about the filename
12:32<Eddi|zuHause3>the newgrf gui will show the action 8 name
12:33<SpComb>yeah, yeah, I know, but my point is, it's not called "cache/dbsetxl.grf" either
12:33<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause3: except for the ones that don't have an action 8 name
12:33<SpComb>not that it's going to stop anyone from copying it over
12:33<Ammler>cache/GRFID.md5sum.tar
12:33*SpComb ponders embedding some '\0's into the filename
12:33<Eddi|zuHause3>SpComb: but cache/6D620401-C5ACB6D5536A464FD78871D91840A35F.tar/dbsetxl.grf
12:33<planetmaker>^ evil :P
12:33<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause3: yes
12:34<Eddi|zuHause3>which will also void Rubidium's remark ;)
12:34<SpComb>(some of the weird control chars do play havoc with the standard GNU/Linux coreutils
12:34<SpComb>)
12:34<Ammler>SpComb: what about a grfset with 2 files?
12:34<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause3: yes, but it still doesn't void my reasoning behind it
12:34<SpComb>Ammler: like ECS? I'm not sure yet
12:34<Ammler>or dbset with ecs adapter
12:35<Ammler>serbian narrow and standard gauge
12:35<SpComb>it's one of those things that needs to be researched, and then develop a database model that fits those, and then figure out how to implement it all
12:35<SpComb>currently I just have a (id, grfid, md5sum, url) table
12:36<Ammler>well, it shouldn't be that hard for server admins to have the readmes in both tars.
12:36<Ammler>how do I need to setup my server?
12:36<SpComb>hmm?
12:37<Ammler>for the GRFs do download...
12:37<Ammler>!s/do/to/
12:37<SpComb>I haven't modified the server side code at all
12:37<SpComb>it's all completly client-side, in the server browser
12:37<Ammler>but who does distribute the GRFs?
12:37<SpComb>http://qmsk.srv.myottd.net/~terom/ottdgrf-repo/
12:38<Ammler>wouldn't it be best, if the gameserver does do that?
12:38<SpComb>in many ways, yes
12:38<SpComb>but I think first I'll just implement a centralized download repo
12:39<SpComb>getting both the (grfid, md5sum) metadata and the NewGRF data from the server might pose some issues
12:39<Ammler>or the repo should be confiugreable by server...
12:39<SpComb>the client would still need to look the info up in the central db
12:39<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: that'll make the version 'control' worse... if there's a central repository, the author could flag all old versions as "not downloadable"
12:39<Ammler>I won't that
12:40<SpComb>Ammler: yes, if that were to be implemented it would be in the form of just "optimizing" the bandwidth consumption by downloading it from the server instead of some central repo; in essence, per-server repos
12:40<Ammler>how should I run a server with obsolete grfs then?
12:40<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: update the grfs
12:40<Ammler>that is the main idea behind ottdc_grfpack :-)
12:40<SpComb>the entire reasoning behind this depends on there being a centralized database of metadata
12:40<SpComb>and the official client would then only download NewGRFs that are listed in there
12:41<SpComb>anything else poses issues
12:41<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: you need the old grfs for old saves, too.
12:41<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd favour the metadatabase, but instead of downloading automatically, you could open a browser with the download page [for people who want readmes to be read and stuff]
12:41<SpComb>where the newgrf data itself is downloaded from isn't such a difficult thing though, because openttd distributes the md5sums, so you can just rely on those to be cryptographically correct
12:42<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause3: that, again, is the distinction between network clients and servers/singleplayer
12:42<Ammler>i.e. saves with ISR 0.5 don't work with ISA 0.7
12:42<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: well, it could at least nag the people with a warning
12:43<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause3: imo, the readme isn't as relevant for people who are just playing as network clients
12:43<Eddi|zuHause3>SpComb: well, it could have some information about how to use certain vehicles
12:44<SpComb>that's true
12:44<Ammler>quite important: http://www.openttdcoop.org/newgrfs/ottdc_grfpack/z_obsolete/
12:44<SpComb>but it's not like the current system (downloading NewGRFs yourself, or via the ottdc grfpack) forces you to read any readmes
12:44<hylje>that it's okay somewhere doesn't mean it's okay everywhere
12:45<Eddi|zuHause3>SpComb: that's the right place to enforce such rules ;)
12:45<SpComb>Ammler: and yet I used jcindstaw.grf in my recently started game without even noticing that it was obsolete
12:45<Ammler>:-)
12:45<SpComb>hylje: well, it's a question of what kind of standards you want to impose on new systems
12:46<SpComb>if the current ones are fine, then something that improves slightly on them should be fine
12:46<SpComb>forcing the user to change from OpenTTD into their browser to click around on links, hunt down .grfs or .tars or .zips and then shuffle them around makes it all completely worthless
12:48<hylje>i've got the impression that people like to make others run through hoops
12:48<hylje>dead simple systems are no-no
12:50<planetmaker>[18:48] <hylje> i've got the impression that people like to make others run through hoops <-- make you feel the power :P
12:50<SpComb>one would need to talk with the NewGRF authors
12:51<Ammler>about?
12:51<planetmaker>indeed. They need to grant permission to use their grf on a however formed distribution system
12:51<hylje>or just be spiteful and do it anyway
12:52<hylje>make them weep when their work gets a lot of popularity
12:52<Ammler>we made the GRFPack and asked AFTER :-)
12:52<planetmaker>It might be an idea to make it anyway - and feed those grf into it which allow it.
12:52<SpComb>currently I'm just using Michael Blunk's grfs for testing because he has an explicit license granting permission to distribute them
12:52<Ammler>you need something to show
12:52<planetmaker>and then poke all those authors to grant permission :)
12:52<planetmaker>prod them till they cannot say anything but yes ;)
12:52<Ammler>if you just talk about something, they won't give you permission.
12:52<SpComb>planetmaker: indeed, and the advantage of a central metadata repo is that you can offer the NewGRF authors more control over their GRFs than they previously had
12:53<planetmaker>SpComb: exactly.
12:53<hylje>when i discussed it quite some time ago a newgrf flag that allows/denies, undef=deny distribution was very undesirable
12:53<Ammler>SpComb: and stats
12:53<planetmaker>does MB allow that? cool
12:53<SpComb>hylje: yeah, because that's fundamentally flawed
12:53<SpComb>Ammler: indeed... pretty graphs
12:54<hylje>just as fundamentally flawed as people manually distributing them
12:54<Ammler>MB has a very open "license"
12:54*planetmaker probably never read that... :P
12:54<DaleStan>Provided you don't modify/reuse his work.
12:54<planetmaker>that's fair.
12:54<SpComb>well, if you take a newgrf flag, flip that bit, and then feed it into a system that automatically distributes the data from OpenTTD servers to clients in an autonomous fashion, I think you would be doing a lot more damage than the current state of affairs
12:55<Ammler>I meant open for distribution
12:55<planetmaker>and his set is a good start as it's one of the best ones around
12:55<hylje>SpComb: yes, that's the cost of having something made trivial
12:55<Ammler>but if you add a flag, default should be distribution allowed...
12:55<hylje>SpComb: i'm certain any reasonably open system can be subverted in the way
12:56<SpComb>hylje: well, a centralized metadata repo offers a lot of advantages
12:56<planetmaker>[18:55] <hylje> SpComb: i'm certain any reasonably open system can be subverted in the way <-- any system, if it comes to that
12:56<hylje>Ammler: nah, explicit is a must. it's about intention
12:56<Ammler>else you will have GRFs never be allowed
12:56<SpComb>if the official OpenTTD client always checks against that, then subverting that system takes a lot more effort - you'd need to have everyone use a patched/custom version of the OpenTTD client
12:56<Ammler>because nobody does care about them...
12:56<SpComb>and I think the difference there is very significant
12:57<hylje>basically
12:57<SpComb>relying on the behaviour of the official client used by normal uses vs. whatever code the server is running is really the best thing you can do
12:57<hylje>signed GRFs
12:58<SpComb>because, after all, it's the only thing that the devs really have control over
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12:58<Ammler>that should not be concern of devs
12:58<hylje>it's not very hard to subvert *that* by providing a alternate repository (through git/hg) that patches the checks out
12:58<Ammler>it belongs to the server admins...
12:59<SpComb>hylje: sure, but at that point you could just as well write the whole distribution system yourself
12:59<SpComb>so you can't blame the maintainers of the offical trunk for anything like that
12:59<SpComb>the high-level fear here is building a system that annoys the NewGRF authors so much that they all decide to make their GRFs incompatible with OpenTTD
13:00<SpComb>at least, that's the reason that I found when I read the threads
13:00<hylje>well
13:00<SpComb>(brb --> )
13:00<planetmaker>yeah
13:00<Ammler>but then, we (#openttdcoop) should annoyed them already enough, not?
13:00<hylje>if the grf authors want bad faith, they'll likely get it back
13:01<hylje>read: hostile reverse-engineering
13:01<hylje>but maybe i'm way too optimistic about it
13:03<planetmaker>It again probably boils down to: present a (nearly) done open, central distribution system, where they may submit their grf and let's see how it is accepted.
13:03<Ammler>planetmaker: not they, we
13:03<planetmaker>The big question is: who may submit grfs...?
13:04<Ammler>or not only they :-9
13:04<planetmaker>Ammler: :)
13:04<Ammler>YEAH
13:04<hylje>planetmaker: allegedly only grf authors
13:04<hylje>if not, why not just make it completely open?
13:04<Ammler>about 40% of all GRFs we use aren't maintained currently.
13:04<planetmaker>hylje: so... what about those ^^
13:05<Ammler>well, maybe less
13:05<Ammler>but not much...
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13:05<Ammler>hylje: I am full for that
13:05<hylje>what defines unmaintained? what if the author comes back and is pissed at his content being stolen?
13:06<Ammler>or happy, that it is used that much
13:06<planetmaker>hylje: that's a risk.
13:07<planetmaker>Usually you couldn't submit anything w/o license as that means standard copyright
13:07<planetmaker>but then... we're all playing OpenTTD - what if the owner comes back? =)
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13:08<Ammler>hylje: try to find a location for basic_l
13:08<Ammler>basic_platforms.grf
13:08<planetmaker>eh yeah...
13:08<hylje>which is kinda why i'd rather go for a rough approach
13:08<Ammler>as I researched for our pack, I didn't find a page for it
13:08<hylje>the alleged damage is already done
13:09<Ammler>and who is the owner of the GRF?
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13:09-!-mode/#openttd [+o Rubidium] by ChanServ
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13:09<Ammler>the drawer or the coder?
13:10<Ammler>or both (or all)
13:10<Ammler>so you would like to aks about 20 guys for permission about using TTRS or ECS?
13:11<planetmaker>Ammler: yes, you would. Except they define a lead dev :)
13:11<SpComb>I'm not really too worried about the aspect of who's going to add in the GRFs, because I suspect that if the system ever gets into trunk (with a couple of GRFs in the database already), then that problem will mostly solve itself :)
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13:11<SpComb>because people will want to play with GRFs that will be automatically downloaded, so they'll want to get new GRFs added in
13:11<Ammler>I would suggest a dedicated system
13:11<planetmaker>or it could work similarily as the language part of OpenTTD
13:12<Ammler>using GRFCrawler for info hosting
13:12<Ammler>and having different servers for the GRFs itself
13:12<Eddi|zuHause3> <DaleStan> Provided you don't modify/reuse his work. <- he occasionally allows that if you ask him explicitly
13:12<SpComb>presumeably at first you'd just have a cabal of admins who add in NewGRFs, possibly then authorising other people to add NewGRFs, dunno
13:12<planetmaker>but that's just a detail, isn't it?
13:12<planetmaker>^ @ Ammler
13:12<SpComb>but you can always remove a GRF from the database if someone objects
13:12<SpComb>(or, well, blacklist it)
13:13<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: really? then somebody should split alpine...
13:14<Ammler>(removing industries...)
13:14<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: for example richk once asked him for the snow/grass tiles from alpine to use for his snow in temperate patch
13:15<SpComb>Ammler: well, I'm kind of doubtful of GRFCrawler being all that useful, depending on how you define "info hosting"
13:15<SpComb>the needs of this system are very different from what GRFCrawler has
13:15<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: also, he said he wants to do that ;)
13:15<SpComb>knowing the md5sum of every .grf is a fundamental feature
13:15<SpComb>you could import some stuff from GRFCrawler, but that's about it
13:16<SpComb>the database structure is going to need to be able to handle multiple versions of a some GRF combo that includes multiple .grf files (like ECS)
13:16<SpComb>(possibly their dependancies with eachother, to simplify loading them, or is that not an issue anymore?)
13:16<planetmaker>it is, SpComb :S
13:16<Ammler>that issue depense on the grfauthor
13:16<Ammler>and it won't be fixed
13:17<SpComb>indeed, so it's basically going to turn into a .grf package manager :)
13:17<Ammler>because you do not know, how future versions will work with your set.
13:17<planetmaker>kinda like the grf presets :)
13:17<Ammler>presets templates
13:17<SpComb>you could store some kind of dependancy graph and then use that to hint at what order they should be loaded in
13:18<Ammler>you can add those infos to the GRF
13:19<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13785 /trunk/ (Makefile.in config.lib media/openttd.desktop.in): -Add: support for freedesktop.org desktop entry files
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13:22<SpComb>so... anyone familiar with how the network client behaves as regard to the list of NewGRFs to use?
13:23<SpComb>I'm trying to figure out when NetworkGameInfo::grfconfig is actually used
13:24<Eddi|zuHause3>grep?
13:25<SpComb>that's what I'm doing
13:26<@peter1138>SpComb, in the server browser, I think...
13:28*peter1138 goes back to his YAPP game.
13:31<joachim>the new graphics (higher resolution), do they also use grf?
13:32<+glx>new graphics don't have higher resolution
13:32<+glx>only higher color depth
13:35<joachim>i saw a screenshot with a train that looked very detailed.. the set that only has one engine
13:35<@peter1138>That's not exactly a set then, is it?
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13:36<joachim>it has wagons for all cargos
13:39<Eddi|zuHause3>no, they are not GRFs, they are plain sprite replacement PNGs
13:39<joachim>ah
13:40<Eddi|zuHause3>works also for sprites in GRFs ;)
13:40<Ammler>sadly not :-)
13:41<+glx>Ammler: what?
13:41<Ammler>that those 32bpp doesn't include GRF
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13:41<Ammler>so you could disable/enable them
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13:41<+glx>but it's possible
13:42<Ammler>of course, :-)
13:42<Ammler>but not many artists uses it...
13:42<+glx>you can code a grf and have 32bpp sprites for it, all in a .tar
13:42<Eddi|zuHause3>you just have to bug DaleStan enough that he includes PNG support in grfcodec ;)
13:43<DaleStan>I have no plans to make grfcodec support 32 bpp anything.
13:43<SpComb>hrm, I guess the only thing it does with NetworkGameInfo::grfconfig is compare it against _all_grfs (via FindGRFConfigI) and then mark them good/bad according to that
13:43<DaleStan>Except by way of binary includes.
13:44<DaleStan>Which it already supports.
13:45<Eddi|zuHause3>SpComb: isn't that enough?
13:45<joachim>so they're not higher res?
13:45<Eddi|zuHause3>SpComb: the actual grf loading is done with the network savegame
13:45<Eddi|zuHause3>(which includes the full grf list again)
13:45<SpComb>right
13:46<SpComb>the GRF code is a bit silly, uses all kinds of global variables and whatnot :(
13:46<Eddi|zuHause3>joachim: increased zoom level is currently not part of trunk
13:46<Eddi|zuHause3>joachim: and is a very disputed feature overall
13:47<joachim>i know and i know, trying to find the set i mean (or shots of it)
13:47<Eddi|zuHause3>joachim: there's a page on the wiki
13:48<joachim>might just have been 32bpp...
13:48<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause3: hrm, the info transferred also includes the filename? Does it have to be the same on the server and the client? :/
13:48<Eddi|zuHause3>SpComb: filename is irrelevant
13:48<Eddi|zuHause3>grfs are loaded by GrfID and MD5sum
13:48<SpComb>phew
13:49<Ammler>joachim: if you want, I can enable a full 32bpp pack :-)
13:50<Ammler>well, it is about 3 months old
13:50<joachim>what's the url to the wiki page?
13:50<joachim>can't find the train
13:51<joachim>ah, found it, it was 32bpp with extra zoom level
13:51<joachim>sorry everyone :)
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14:03<HeadBeng0r>!dlin
14:04<Eddi|zuHause3>?
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14:04<Eddi|zuHause3>most fascinating.
14:06<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: another command of #openttdcoop :-)
14:07<Eddi|zuHause3>tell it to glx when you add such things :p
14:07<Ammler>:-D
14:07<Ammler>[20:07] <Ammler> !download
14:07<Ammler>[20:07] <PublicServer> use !dlin, !dwin, !dosx, !dlin64, !dwinauto (Windows Auto Updater), !autostart
14:08<Eddi|zuHause3>why can't you give all links instead?
14:09<Ammler>well, since _42_ isn't here anymore
14:09<planetmaker>too much spam
14:09<Ammler>you could define !*
14:09<Yexo>Ammler: that'd also kick !? for example
14:10<Yexo>which could be used in normal chat
14:10<Eddi|zuHause3>Yexo: no, must be at the start of the line
14:10<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: occasionally people mistype DorpsGek's commands with ! instead of @
14:11<Eddi|zuHause3>that does not really warrant such a kick
14:11<planetmaker>lalalala... :)
14:11<Eddi|zuHause3>no, i wasn't looking at anyone in particular :p
14:12<planetmaker>:)
14:12<@peter1138>OH GOD THE AI IS DESTROYING THE LANDSCAPE AGAIN
14:12*Prof_Frink destroys peter1138
14:12<@peter1138>:(
14:12*planetmaker time travels and restores peter1138
14:14<Yorick>planetmaker: you could just have made a new planet, with peter1138 on it
14:14<Ammler>peter1138: is there already a ai, which can terraform?
14:15<Ammler>which ai is that?
14:15<@peter1138>...
14:15<Ammler>oh, original ai?
14:15<Yorick>quite
14:15<planetmaker>My planets are only infant planets - they don't bear life so far
14:15<Ammler>:-)
14:16<Yexo>Ammler: I'd like to hear any idea you have about implementing terraforming in an AI pathfinder
14:16<Yorick>planetmaker: it isn't a very complex form of life :)
14:17<Ammler>Yexo: watch those kids on the MP servers
14:17<Ammler>one straight line on the same level from a to b
14:18*planetmaker gulps
14:18<Yexo>they might be used to playing with realistic acceleration off
14:18<Ammler>actually, it is one of the best things your ais has
14:18<planetmaker>indeed. be light on it :)
14:18<Ammler>I wouldn't do that much terraforming anyway.
14:18<@peter1138>So we need an option to disable all terraforming...
14:19<@peter1138>Which would be annoying :o
14:19<planetmaker>maybe make a bit small-scale tf for placing stations, but then it's ok.
14:19<Yexo>Ammler: try a hilly, rough map with build on slopes off
14:19<Yexo>you'll need terraforming :)
14:19<planetmaker>peter1138: I have such patch :)
14:19<planetmaker>per company accessible.
14:19<Ammler>why should you switch that off?
14:19<@peter1138>Maybe only allow one point at a time. Could be abused though...
14:19<Ammler>can't ai use foundations?
14:19<Yexo>they can
14:19<planetmaker>I have that, too :) - wwottdgd didn't need it, though
14:19<@peter1138>It is not aware of them.
14:20<Yexo>but Rubidium made a test scenario's for AIs with that switch off
14:21<@Rubidium>you'll like playing that one, especially with a no-terraforming rule
14:22<Ammler>:-)
14:23<Ammler>I tried you scenarios already
14:23<Ammler>also those nice flooding ones
14:23*planetmaker imagines a scenario with approx. 3 flat tiles and rough, hilly terrain
14:23<@Rubidium>planetmaker: worse
14:23<planetmaker>:O
14:23<@Rubidium>it's toyland
14:23*planetmaker closes the eyes
14:23<Ammler>the ai reaches to connect 2 routes, afaik
14:24<Ammler>it is quite watchable with opengfx
14:24<planetmaker>:)
14:25*planetmaker still has to try the toyland to Mars conversion
14:25<@Rubidium>you mean legoworld?
14:25<planetmaker>hm... actually not really. Maybe I remember something wrongly, though
14:26<Ammler>if you do not find something with lego, you can search for bricks or so
14:27<Ammler>the 32bpp "test set"
14:27<Ammler>(for Truebrain)
14:27<Ammler>not finished, iirc
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14:49<SpComb>there, GRFs loaded from cache aren't shown in the NewGRF gui...
14:49<Ammler>:-)
14:54<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13786 /trunk/ (config.lib media/): -Fix (r13785): reconfigure gave warnings on the newly introduced options.
14:57<SpComb>heh, OpenTTD asserts if you rm a .tar file after it's started up
15:00<SpComb>and gah, ScanNewGRFFiles doesn't find any .grfs if they were in .tar files that were added :/
15:00<SpComb>because the list of .tar files and their contents is apparently constructed at startup
15:01<SpComb>so if you add a .tar file containing .grfs to your data dir, you need to restart OpenTTD to be able to use them
15:01<SpComb>is this correct?
15:02<@peter1138>That could be correct.
15:03<@peter1138>But there should be some way of rescanning tars as well, I guess.
15:03<SpComb>ScanForTarFiles();
15:04<SpComb>NewGRFAddWindow.OnClick#ANGRFW_RESCAN doesn't call that though
15:04<SpComb>but I guess I will
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15:12<Ammler>Rubidium: noai has also that -n bug
15:13<planetmaker>^^ :S
15:13<@Rubidium>wait till the bugfix gets synced into there
15:13<Ammler>:-)
15:13<Ammler>how many times do you sync?
15:13<planetmaker>he... can we kindly ask for that sync... ?
15:14<+glx><Ammler> how many times do you sync? <-- when someone thinks it's a good idea to do
15:14<Ammler>planetmaker: we could apply that fix self
15:14<planetmaker>because that revision has issues with joining companies. So testing vs. humans is kinda difficult.
15:14<Ammler>maybe?
15:15<planetmaker>hm...
15:15<planetmaker>maybe?
15:15<Ammler>maybe just apply the fix
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15:16<Ammler>yexo is doing it...
15:16*glx will look but he doesn't promise anything
15:16<@peter1138>Hmm, I ought to consilidate my routes and vehicles.
15:16<planetmaker>:)
15:16*planetmaker also never promises things when topic is programming :)
15:16<Ammler>lively rivers!
15:17<@peter1138>Building main lines in stages... have lots of local trains doing segments of the line...
15:17<planetmaker>:P Die Geister, die ich rief...
15:17<@peter1138>Hmm, only one branch line.
15:17<+glx>yeah conflicts
15:18<planetmaker>:S
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15:19<SpComb>hmm... how can I tell a window to refresh itself?
15:20<SpComb>and I mean a window other than this, something I don't have a pointer to
15:21<SpComb>although hrm, actually I still need to update compatible and version_compatible
15:23<planetmaker>iirc you tell it to be dirty
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15:26<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13787 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp gfx_func.h misc_gui.cpp): -Codechange: resize the red error message box if needed
15:30<Ammler>that works: http://hg.openttd.org:8000/trunk.hg/rev/aecab582a455
15:30<Ammler>glx ^
15:31<Ammler>but I guess, IF you sync you sync all :-)
15:31<+glx>Ammler: yes a sync contains everything
15:31<SpComb>right, it refreshes correctly
15:31<SpComb>does someone want to do some testing? :)
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15:35<Yexo>what makes a server always generete the same 'random' map?
15:35<+glx>-G
15:36<Yexo>ok, but now we have a server, that always create the same map on startup, and we want random maps
15:36<Yexo>so apart from -G, what can cause it?
15:36<Yexo>:q
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15:37<@peter1138>random seed in the config
15:38<tom0004>if i understand correctly, just remove -G to have random maps again
15:38<Yexo>generation_seed =
15:38<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13788 /branches/noai/ (30 files in 7 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r13734:13787
15:38<tom0004>or am i jumping into middle of a convo ?
15:38<Yexo>no, but you didn't understand the problem
15:38<Yexo>I'm not using -G at all
15:41<Ammler>hmm, might it be something in the noai branch?
15:45<Ammler>works again..
15:45<Ammler>thx for sync
15:45<Ammler>Yexo: when will the next nightly be made?
15:46<Yexo>tomorrow
15:46<Yexo>1 hour before the trunk nightly iirc
15:47<Ammler>they are "real" nightly then, too?
15:47<Yexo>yep
15:48<+glx>Yexo: 2 hours before indeed
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15:55*SpComb wonders how to add a new library to OpenTTD's configure
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16:06<Ammler>omg, what a nice feature in trunk :-)
16:06<SpComb>and the answer is: by copy-pasting all the *png* stuff and s/png/curl/
16:06<Ammler>(grfpresets)
16:07<SpComb>Ammler: do you want to test my patch?
16:07<Ammler>grfdownloading?
16:09<SpComb>yes
16:10<SpComb>http://hg.marttila.de/repos/ottdgrfs-openttd.hg/ <-- that should configure/compile/run nicely now
16:10<Ammler>hehe, how do I checkout hg repos?
16:10<SpComb>using mercurial
16:10<SpComb>`hg clone ...`
16:11*Ammler is running zypper in mercurial
16:12<@peter1138>Oh damn, I just made an awkward route around an industry... then it closed down.
16:14<SmatZ>peter1138: report it at tt-forums.net and have a feature request, you wouldn't be the first ;)
16:14<SpComb>run the client without the dbsetxl loaded, add "skrblz.fixme.fi" as a server, click the "NewGRF Download" button, and the DBSetXL should show up orange
16:14<SpComb>hit "Check Available", and it should turn green - you can see the URL etc if you click on it
16:15<SpComb>and then "Download Available" and it should turn blue, after which you can close the window
16:15<@peter1138>SmatZ, btw, why did you put a combo signal outside a depot?
16:15<SpComb>the server is also using newstatsw.grf, but that isn't in the db
16:15<@peter1138>Or was it just an exit signal... hmm...
16:15<Ammler>so ./configure --without-personal-dir
16:15<SmatZ>peter1138: so trains don't leave the depot if there isn't any green exit - and other trains can enter the depot
16:16<SpComb>I guess
16:16<SmatZ>it was a combo
16:16<@peter1138>SmatZ, ah... you know that's built in to the depot's internal signal?
16:16<SpComb>oh, you might need to create a "cache" folder in bin/ - it probably doesn't know how to create it itself
16:16<Ammler>peter1138: it's a "overflow" depot
16:17<Ammler>it does make the entry signal green
16:17<SmatZ>peter1138: yeah, but I need to have a "green" there so entry signal is green, too
16:17<SmatZ>so there are no queues at station entry
16:17<Ammler>sorry SmatZ :-)
16:17<@peter1138>Ah... right.
16:17<SmatZ>hehe
16:18<SmatZ>maybe it would work if there was normal signal instead of entry signal, too
16:18<SmatZ>and no combo at depo
16:18<SmatZ>t
16:18<SmatZ>but this is how this evolved...
16:20<Ammler>SpComb: now I see, why you do understand german... :-)
16:21<DJNekkid>if a MU could contain mail, what would be a proper ratio? (compared to passangers)
16:22<DJNekkid>3/4th as much?
16:22<SpComb>Ammler: hmm?
16:22<Ammler>marttila.de
16:22*SpComb added an empty cache dir to the hg repo and added newstats to the db
16:23<SpComb>my father's domain, he still lives in Germany
16:23<SpComb>and indeed, I lived there for eight years as well
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16:24<Ammler>compiling...
16:25<Ammler>hmm
16:26<Ammler>'/home/marcel/hg/ottdgrfs-openttd.hg/src/network/newgrf_download.cpp:28:23: error: curl/curl.h: No such file or directory
16:26<Ammler>SpComb: '
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16:28<SpComb>Ammler: yes, you need to install libcurl-dev or whatever is the equivalent
16:29<SpComb>or did you already do that?
16:29<Ammler>possible, I didn't
16:30<SpComb>indeed, it needs the headers to build
16:31<Ammler>isn't there another way for downloading?
16:31<Ammler>what does ottd use to download the map?
16:31<@peter1138>Hmm, is it possible to make a train turn around at a via order? :o
16:32<@Rubidium>currently not
16:32<SpComb>Ammler: well, I decided to just use curl/HTTP now, but I guess you could run some custom server as well...
16:33<planetmaker>peter1138: possibly, if it is a terminus?
16:33<@peter1138>It's not a terminus, no.
16:33<Ammler>is it possible to set a order "no loading" and "no unloading"
16:34<@peter1138>Ammler, no, that's handled by a via order ;)
16:34<planetmaker>and then time table it to wait for 10 days :P
16:36*SpComb wonders if he wants to try and cross-compile a .exe for windows
16:37<Ammler>SpComb: http://paste.openttd.org/34866
16:37-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fdbd5.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:38<SpComb>Ammler: hmm... did you hg clone it before I commited the changes to config.lib?
16:38<SpComb>try hg pull && hg update
16:38<SpComb>if that pulls in some changes then you'll need to ./configure again
16:39<Ammler>no changes found
16:39<SpComb>hrm... and what does `hg parents` show?
16:39<SpComb>88c967f1422b?
16:39<Ammler>hmm
16:39<Ammler>I do reconfigure
16:40<Ammler>it does compile new
16:40<SpComb>ok
16:42-!-Yorick [~Y0R1CK@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
16:42<Yorick>is that dedicated server supposed to give all messages twice?
16:43<SpComb>http://photos.marttila.de/screenshots/ottdgrfs/ <-- there's some screenshots
16:44<Yorick>nice :)
16:44<Yexo>peter1138: After saving a newgrf preset, it'll still show "Custom", untill you reload the set by choosing it from the dropdown
16:45<Ammler>SpComb: works!
16:45<SpComb>::ffff:84.227.12.95 skrblz.fixme.fi - [22/Jul/2008:23:44:33 +0300] "GET /~terom/ottdgrf-repo/dbsetxl.tar HTTP/1.1" 200 1146880 "-" "OpenTTD (h:88c967f)"
16:45<SpComb>::ffff:84.227.12.95 skrblz.fixme.fi - [22/Jul/2008:23:44:37 +0300] "GET /~terom/ottdgrf-repo/newstats.tar HTTP/1.1" 200 1546240 "-" "OpenTTD (h:88c967f)"
16:45<SpComb>OpenTTD has it's own user-agent now :)
16:45<SpComb>Ammler: were you able to join?
16:45<Ammler>yep, I joined...
16:46<Ammler>a loading bar for the download would be nice.
16:46<Yorick>!logs
16:46<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
16:46*Yorick is sorry, lost his bookmark
16:46<SpComb>Ammler: indeed, but that's going to take a bit of work
16:47<SpComb>async network stuff is always tricky
16:52<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13789 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix (r13781): Saved preset was not automatically selected.
16:53<Ammler>SpComb: now a thread at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=26 ?
16:53<Ammler>and ask authors about?
16:54<Ammler>hmm, still not sure about the repo server
16:58<SpComb>not today, I think, I'm going to sleep soon
16:58<SpComb>Ammler: what is it about the repo? Use of HTTP?
16:59<Ammler>no, just how
16:59<SpComb>use of a repo vs. downloading from the server?
16:59<Ammler>yes
16:59<Ammler>my favorite is downloading from the server...
16:59<SpComb>well, to some degree, that's just an implementation detail
16:59<@peter1138>Downloading from server means GRF authors will never have any control.
16:59<Ammler>but repo might be better aceptted by authors
16:59<Ammler>peter1138: indeed
16:59<SpComb>if I replace HTTP with some OpenTTD protocol, then it wouldn't be such a big leap to have it download some NewGRFs from the server directly - with the md5um, the difference is pretty small
16:59<SpComb>peter1138: well, it would still check the md5sum against the master db
16:59<SpComb>so it's not *that* bad, but it still makes me feel kind of uneasy
16:59<planetmaker>a central repo is probably better.
17:00<planetmaker>you might make a cfg entry for the repo url
17:00<planetmaker>so you could in principle re-configure that
17:00<Ammler>so you can use the repo as server admin
17:00<Yorick>planetmaker: do we have a cfg entry for the master server url?
17:00<planetmaker>exactly. but default is our repo :P
17:00<Ammler>if you like to play with other grfs, you need to distrbute them the old way.
17:00<planetmaker>Yorick: not that I know
17:01<Yorick>isn't this a bit the same?
17:02<SpComb>the address for the metadata database doesn't need to be configureable
17:02<SpComb>there's nothing in the design that requires a central repo, there's a lot of flexibility in how that could be implemented
17:02<planetmaker>the game still has to start w/o acces to it
17:02<@peter1138>Use of a repo also has the possibility of doing automatic upgrades (or at least notifying of updates) which some authors may like...
17:02<planetmaker>indeed. good idea
17:02<SpComb>planetmaker: of course, but you wouldn't be able to download NewGRFs in-game
17:03<planetmaker>yeah. k
17:03<SpComb>peter1138: yes, as I've said earlier, having a central *metadata* database gives the authors more control over old versions
17:04<SpComb>but this database only contains the md5sums and other info, the actual .grfs can then be downloaded from elsewhere
17:04-!-Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl7-183-195.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
17:04<planetmaker>the database should also IMO at least have a link to the grf
17:04<@peter1138>You only need a 'superseded' field ;)
17:05<planetmaker>yeah :)
17:05<SpComb>yes, it would probably need an interface similar to GRFCrawler
17:05<planetmaker>completely unrelated: a new *.cpp file: do I just add it to source.list ?
17:05<SpComb>(hmm... if you download the data from the OpenTTD server, you'd also need to download the readmes, and you would then also need to md5sum those...)
17:06<SpComb>it only checks the md5sums on the .grfs, but e.g. michael blunk's licsense requires a valid readme containing his copyright notice to be distributed as well
17:06<@peter1138>The accompanying text (but sometimes HTML or PDF) files are the spanner in the works, really.
17:06<Ammler>SpComb: they are in the tar
17:06<Ammler>like you did now
17:07<@orudge>can you not just add an entry in some database saying "associated files", that get downloaded whenever the main GRF gets downloaded?
17:07<planetmaker>that then means central repo which supplies the files
17:07<Ammler>how does "default" windows handle tar?
17:07<@orudge>doesn't seem like it'd be much of a spanner in the works...
17:07<@orudge>assuming this is coming from a central database/server
17:07<@peter1138>orudge, problem is forcing them to be shown, as some require.
17:07<@orudge>hmm
17:08<@peter1138>I suppose if you mandate a simple text file, that could be shown. Somehow.
17:08<@orudge>this is where the OpenTTD HTML renderer comes in :p
17:08<planetmaker>loool
17:08<Ammler>the readme could be a map with a lot of signs
17:09<planetmaker>no no. A specially generated map. desert letters on green background
17:09<Digitalfox>Sorry to bother you guys with an of topic question, but I'm getting really bored on some video splitting and it's going very wrong and after having download 11 applications, I'm like at the start of the task :( How please can I cut the start and the end of an anime show I have? The codec it's using is h264 inside a container mp4.. I have tried every application I could find and already had,...
17:09<+glx><Ammler> how does "default" windows handle tar? <-- it just doesn't handle them
17:09<Digitalfox>...like avidemux and virtuadub, but if I don't cut on a key frame, the start of the video get's all messy and after 5 seconds it's normaly.. I wan't to avoid any recode, just cutting the start and end..
17:10<planetmaker>Digitalfox: that's what key frames are about: start points
17:11<planetmaker>all others are only relative information
17:11<Digitalfox>planetmaker no way of cutting like 3 or 4 frames next to a key frame?
17:11<planetmaker>you did it. You saw the result.
17:12<Digitalfox>without screwing the start of the anime for 5 seconds..
17:12<Ammler>are there windows ottd users without 7z installed?
17:12<planetmaker>or de-code and re-encode
17:12<Digitalfox>planetmaker so divx and xvid you can but in h264 you can't?
17:12<SpComb>a .html -> .sav converter
17:12<Yorick>Ammler: sure there are...
17:12<SpComb>the issue I meant was that the md5sum doesn't cover the readmes
17:12<Digitalfox>Ammler winrar here ;)
17:12<Prof_Frink>Ammler: Just make the windows package depends: 7zip
17:12<planetmaker>SpComb: the other way would also be interesting :)
17:13<Yorick>SpComb: could you make me a .sav -> .html converter first
17:13<SpComb>does a .html with a bunch of <img>s qualify?
17:13<Ammler>Digitalfox: winrar should be able to read tar too
17:13<planetmaker>Digitalfox: I don't know those in detail. But I know the concept of 'keyframe' :)
17:13<Digitalfox>Ammler winrar can :)
17:13<tom0004>it does :s
17:14<SpComb>currently I download a .tar that contains the grf and the readmes/copyright notices
17:14<Ammler>[23:13] <Yorick> SpComb: could you make me a .sav -> .html converter first <-- orudge almost did :-)
17:14<Yorick>for openttd?
17:14<Prof_Frink>presumably
17:14<Yorick>what language?
17:15<Prof_Frink>ttd uses .sv0/.sv1
17:16<Ammler>SpComb: I would really prefer to maintain such a repo then the grfpack
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17:17<+glx>Yorick: why do you want that?
17:18<Yorick>I would like something apart from openttd that can parse savs
17:19<Yorick>http://paste.openttd.org/34893 <-- also, is this normal?
17:19<@peter1138>And do what with the data?
17:19<Yorick>not figured out yet :) rortom wanted it...
17:19<@orudge>[22:14:31] <Ammler> [23:13] <Yorick> SpComb: could you make me a .sav -> .html converter first <-- orudge almost did :-) <-- indeed... if I could be bothered, I could basically reconstruct TTD in a web browser, of a sort.
17:19<@orudge>but that'd be rather a lot more effort than just doing what I'm currently doing :p
17:20<ln>could the whole OpenTTD be implemented as a static html file?
17:20<@orudge>well
17:20<@orudge>probably not as such
17:21<@orudge>you could probably do a fair bit in JavaScript
17:21<@orudge>although I'd rather not try to implement that.
17:21<Yorick>it would run slow
17:21<@orudge>although, some sort of AJAX-y OpenTTD-type thing would probably not be totally unfeasable
17:21<ln>hmmm, are there a finite number of possible moves in chess?
17:22<Prof_Frink>Yes.
17:22<Yorick>yes
17:22<Prof_Frink>A finite, but frelling huge number.
17:22<ln>so at least a chess game can be implemented as a HTML file.
17:23<Prof_Frink>ln: But that file would probably require storage on a disk that contains more bits than there are atoms in the universe
17:23<ln>Prof_Frink: well, in 5 years you can buy such a disk for < 100€.
17:24<+glx>Yorick: the duplication is strange
17:24<planetmaker>ln: yes
17:24*ln is being optimistic
17:24<Yorick>glx: it only happens if I have 2 ips
17:25<Yorick>eg more than 1
17:25<planetmaker>ln: you know the chessboard and the number of rice grains?
17:25<ln>planetmaker: sure.
17:25<+glx>Yorick: doesn't happen for me (I have 3 IPs)
17:26<@peter1138>Prof_Frink: There are a hell of a lot of atoms in the universe. You ought to cite ;)
17:26<Yorick>do you have it bound to something?
17:26<@peter1138>[Citation needed]
17:26<+glx>0.0.0.0
17:26<@peter1138>Multiple IPs or multiple interfaces?
17:26<Yorick>hmm...it can't start a server if it's bound to 0.0.0.0
17:27<Yorick>multiple interfaces
17:27<ln>but... actually, hmm. there are a finite number of possible states of the chess board, but the number of moves can be infinite, right?
17:27<+glx>multiple interfaces 1 real and 2 virtual (vmware)
17:27<Yorick>wireless, wired, bluetooth...
17:27<Sacro>ln: no
17:27<Sacro>finite input, finite output
17:28<Yorick>it can't even start here if it's at 0.0.0.0
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17:28<ln>Sacro: assuming there is output.
17:28<Sacro>ln: well yes
17:28<Sacro>there is a finite number of moves though
17:28<Yorick>not as non-dedicated, that is
17:29<Yorick>but gottogo now
17:29<ln>Sacro: can be infinite.
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17:30<planetmaker>ln: no. But you may make an infinite number of moves. But the number of unique ones is limited
17:30<ln>Sacro: let's say we have a chess board in its initial state in front of us. 1) i move the horse, and you move your horse. 2) i move my horse back to its original position, and so do you. 3) goto 1. finite input, but how many moves?
17:32<planetmaker>well... maybe... hm
17:32<Yexo>ln: if you reach the same state three times, the game is draw
17:33<ln>Yexo: never heard of such rule.
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17:33<Yexo>also if there are 50 consecutive moves without any pieces being taken of the board, the game is draw too
17:34<Yexo>ln: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#End_of_the_game
17:34<planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess#Draws <- standard rule
17:34<DaleStan>Doesn't that 50-moves counter get reset in instances of pawn-movement and pawn-promotion?
17:35<Yexo>DaleStan: even if it did: the amount of pawns is limited, and they can't be moved back
17:35<Yexo>so that still makes the amount of moves finite
17:35<DaleStan>True.
17:36<ln>so there is some protection against infinite games by two idiot players. good.
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17:44<@Belugas>good evenign folks
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17:49<@peter1138>Hey Belugas!
17:49<fjb>Hi Belugas
18:08<DJNekkid>is it waggon or wagon ?
18:08<DJNekkid>(spelled)
18:09<@peter1138>One g.
18:09<DJNekkid>ty
18:10<ln>actually both.
18:10<dih>Belugas, hey! welcome back :-)
18:11<ln>"wagon, waggon, n.", says OED.
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18:12<Prof_Frink>ln: Go away. peter1138 is right.
18:13<DJNekkid>what would you prefer? :)
18:14<Prof_Frink>One. g.
18:14<ln>Prof_Frink: peter greaterthan OED?
18:15<ln>not that I would have known about the gg version before checking.
18:15<Prof_Frink>OED says either. peter1138 says which one to use.
18:15<DJNekkid>1g it is then
18:16<DJNekkid>it's prolly a color/colour thing :)
18:17<ln>"The Eng. dicts. of the 18th c. have the spelling waggon, exc. Johnson, who gives wagon without remark, though all his examples have waggon. Todd 1818 prefers wagon for etymological reasons, but says that waggon is the prevailing form. Webster 1828 gives wagon, remarking that ‘the old orthography, waggon, seems to be falling into disuse’. Smart 1836 gives waggon as the current form, and wagon as ‘a disused spelling’. Stormonth 1884 and Cassell 1888 have
18:17<ln>... later dicts. wagon either alone or in the first place. In Great Britain waggon is still very commonly used; in the U.S. it is rare."
18:18<SmatZ>ln: is your dictionary from 19th century?
18:18<SmatZ>it doesn't site anything from 20th...
18:19<ln>SmatZ: it is the online version of The Oxford English Dictionary.
18:19<ln>it also has on-topic remark: "The Eng. word has been adopted in Fr. as wagon, vagon (vag{revctilde}) in the sense of ‘railway coach or carriage’, a meaning which is now obsolete in Eng. (see quot. 1847 in sense 5b). So also G. waggon (pronounced as Fr.)."
18:21<ln>SmatZ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OED
18:21<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13790 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: Enable to force the creation of freedesktop.org desktop entry files
18:27<@peter1138>-Fix: Enable grammar
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18:28<DJNekkid>rofl!
18:28<DJNekkid>perhaps i'd make a parameter 0 is wagon, 1 is waggon :)
18:29<DJNekkid>or change it to coach :)
18:32<Prof_Frink>carriage!
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18:35<DJNekkid>Carriage capacity: xxx passangers ?
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18:36<DJNekkid><some code> "Wagon Capacity: " 8A "55 Passengers\n" 98 "Loading Speed: " 8A "Low" 00
18:36<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13791 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix(r13790): Don refer to variables when their value isn't set as expected
18:37<@peter1138>Or just ... Capacity:
18:38<@peter1138>g'night
18:39<DJNekkid>peter1138: will be confusing i think, as this is text added to the engines, informing on how many people the carriages can take (when attached)
18:44<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13792 /trunk/ (config.lib configure): -Codechange: Display current values of the options in ./configre --help instead of static strings
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18:49<Digitalfox>Good night.
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19:07<@Belugas>peter1138, dih, fjb, i salute you too (or three, actually...) :)
19:08<fjb>Oh, why?
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19:10<@Belugas>because you did it :)
19:11<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13793 /trunk/config.lib: -Codechange: Unify the dir checking in config.lib
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19:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13794 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix: helicopters leaving a heliport could get stuck after processing conditional orders.
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19:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13795 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Change: do not require canals/rivers/seas to be empty when building a bridge over it as it is not required for roads and rails either.
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 23 00:00:25 2008