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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-05

---Logopened Tue Aug 05 00:00:52 2008
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01:50<Tekky>Are the TTD-Forums down also with everyone else?
01:50<Doorslammer>Not for me
01:50<Doorslammer>Working fine
01:50<Tekky>I can't seem to access them, I can't establish a HTTP connection.
01:50-!-Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd
01:50<Tekky>thanks.
01:52<Doorslammer>:O
01:52<Doorslammer>Very strange :P
01:52<Doorslammer>Unless your name is Draakon, I cant understand the fuss ;)
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01:56<Tekky>ah, the OpenTTD web page links to http://forum.openttd.org/ and that is down. http://www.tt-forums.net works with me.
01:57<Doorslammer>LOL
01:58<Doorslammer>Bit different :P
01:58<Doorslammer>Hmmm, could possibly be
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02:34<@peter1138>It's not just forum.openttd.org that's down...
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02:35<@Rubidium>it works for me
02:36<@peter1138>Oh yes, it all does now...
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03:04<Eddi|zuHause2>wahh... it's way too early...
03:04<Eddi|zuHause2>who invented these hours?
03:06<Celestar>morning
03:06<Celestar>well peter1138 :D
03:07<Celestar>any news?
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03:44<@peter1138>Celestar, only that I did the merge cos r14000 fixes the black minimap bug
03:45<Celestar>peter1138: cool
03:45<Celestar>peter1138: I've done some fixes
03:46<Celestar>peter1138: we need another playtest
03:46<Celestar>methinks
03:46<Celestar>peter1138: I'll add a console command to manually reconstruct the routing system
03:46-!-Tekky [~chatzilla@p5493DE4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:47<@peter1138>ok
03:47<Celestar>that way the server will behave the same way as a freshly connected client
03:49<@peter1138>*nod*
03:52<Celestar>(this is something we could always do :P)
03:52<Celestar>just have the routing system reset when a client connects, but that's UGLY
03:53<planetmaker>morning
03:53<Celestar>hey planetmaker
03:53<planetmaker>heya Celestar :) Reading here, I start to really feel like testing your CargoDestinations, too :)
03:54<Celestar>planetmaker: http://galadriel.td.mw.tum.de:8000 <= use this for hg
03:57<planetmaker>uh... I guess I should really get around and install hg one day :)
03:58<Celestar>we're you on opensuse?
03:59<Celestar>weren't*
03:59<Ammler>he is :-)
03:59<planetmaker>depends. Here on work: yes. At home, I'm doing my OpenTTD dev on MacOS Tiger
03:59<planetmaker>:) Moin Ammler
03:59<planetmaker>But what compiles on SuSE, compiles on MacOS mostly, too
04:00<Ammler>zypper in mercurial
04:00<Celestar>exactly (=
04:00<Celestar>and the "hg clone http://galadriel.td.mw.tum.de:8000"
04:00<Celestar>and zypper in boost-devel (=
04:01<planetmaker>:) I guess, I got something to install in the weekend :)
04:02<Celestar>erm peter1138: you know more about the GUI than I do. the scrollbar in the station view window is not updated when the number of lines change. where do I set this?
04:02<Ammler>ah, now!
04:02<planetmaker>:)
04:02<Ammler>you can't use zypper in on OSX, can you?
04:03<Ammler>has osx also such repos, btw?
04:03*planetmaker just investigates
04:05<Ammler>how do I permanently change the url for pull?
04:05<Ammler>hg pull likes still to use peters repo...
04:06<planetmaker>k, there're both, package managers for OS-X and there's mercurial for OS-X :) All feasable therefore :)
04:16<@peter1138>Celestar, not that simple to reset, as you need to reset it for all the clients. A similar solution was proprosed for the YAPF cache problem, but it ended up being fixed instead...
04:17<@peter1138>Ammler: .hg/hgrc
04:17<@peter1138>I don't know if that's the proper way to switch, but it worksish...
04:17<Celestar>peter1138: I'm not sure whether we have a cache problem
04:18<@peter1138>Celestar, if 'rebuilding the network' fixes it, it is similar to a cache problem.
04:18<Ammler>thanks, works.
04:18<Celestar>peter1138: yeah, maybe it is the edge order within a vertex
04:18<Celestar>peter1138: I'm still trying to find out what sorting scheme is used
04:19<@peter1138>The whole routing system is a cache of sorts, because the real data is the station and order pools.
04:19<@peter1138>A console command to reset just the routing network on the server is a good way to test if that is the case of course :)
04:19<@peter1138>So we just need to play again until it desyncs chronically...
04:20<Celestar>I'll stop the server, rebuild and reload (=
04:20<Celestar>because it is pretty large a game
04:20<Celestar>easier then
04:21<Celestar>ps u | grep csh | wc -l
04:21<Celestar>14
04:23<Celestar>I don't find the terminal where the server is running on
04:24<@peter1138>heh
04:25<Celestar>oh .. it's in a detached screen :P
04:29<Celestar>peter1138: server running :P
04:30<Celestar>bah mismatch
04:32<Celestar>WTF?
04:32<Celestar>desync
04:34-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7BD60.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
04:34<Celestar>this is NOT the same version :o
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04:35<Celestar>hrr
04:35<Celestar>is the version string changed by "hg pull" or by "hg update" ?
04:37<Ammler>hg pull is like downloading the "patch", hg up is aplying.., isn't
04:38<Celestar>yeahz
04:38<Celestar>but it displayed the same version string even though the sources were totally different
04:44<@peter1138>It should have an M...
04:45<rortom>good morning everyone
04:45<rortom>at what time are the nightlies compiled?
04:46<@peter1138>8pm in whatever timezone the server is in ;)
04:47<@peter1138>It's 7pm BST...
04:47<rortom>thanks :)
04:48<Celestar>1800UTC
04:50<rortom>thx :)
04:51*Celestar wonders how to tackle the next items on the TODO
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04:53<Kloopy>What is the next item on the list?
04:53<rortom>how far is the graph?
04:54<rortom>(paxdest)
04:54<@peter1138>rortom, we were playing it last night...
04:54<rortom>nice :)
04:54<rortom>worked well?
04:55<@peter1138>Celestar, I think I've bagsyed 2a and 7a. 2b is done...
04:56<@peter1138>rortom, well it worked. Not all there yet, heh...
04:58<Celestar>you habe what? :P
04:58<Celestar>rortom: the graph is finished
04:59<rortom>yay :D
04:59<rortom>you guys were fast :)
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05:05<@peter1138>bagsyed...
05:06<Celestar>unknown identified
05:06<@peter1138>:p
05:07<@peter1138>Stake a claim...
05:08-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-86-27-108-163.brnt.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
05:10<@peter1138>Hello Brianetta
05:10<Brianetta>hi (:
05:10<Brianetta>Don't suppose you're coming on Saturday?
05:13<Celestar>where to?
05:14<Brianetta>London
05:14<ln>What's in London on Saturday?
05:15*Brianetta blinks
05:15<Brianetta>You don't know.
05:15<Brianetta>http://wiki.tt-forums.net/index.php/TT_Meet_2008
05:17<ln>the names look quite british.
05:17<Brianetta>Britain's quite close to London.
05:17<@peter1138>Hmm, don't know.
05:18<Celestar>ROFL
05:18<Celestar>11:17 < Brianetta> Britain's quite close to London.
05:18<Celestar>11:17 <@peter1138> Hmm, don't know.
05:23<rortom>oh, bad date :/
05:23<rortom>i would have come if its after november
05:24<Celestar>bad date too, I have a meeting this weekend :(
05:24<rortom>"Any other ladies that see this page and wonder why the hell their bloke is going to meet some other geeks, feel welcome to go shopping around London with your fellow better halves! "
05:25<rortom>hahaha :p
05:25<Celestar>rofl
05:26<dih>;-)
05:27<ln>maybe i should tell w-ber about that page and meeting...
05:29<ln>where the hell are you actually going to meet and play?
05:32<Celestar>shush
05:32<Celestar>peter1138's hope
05:32<Celestar>home*
05:33<ln>(if anyone remembers w-ber, he is the first finnish translator, used to hang around here years ago, and now lives in London)
05:36<Celestar>I have an endless loop somewhere
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05:46<Wolf01>hello
05:46<ln>hello, telecomitalia
05:52<rortom>hi
05:52<rortom>mh you thought about themes for grfs?
05:52<rortom>like grf collections?
05:52<Ammler>rortom: already in trunk :-)
05:52<@peter1138>Hmm
05:52<rortom>so users can simply setup a candian/japan/us/whatever server without crawling grfs?
05:52<rortom>:D
05:53<@peter1138>UpdateStationRating() is fishy
05:53<Ammler>not that easy :-)
05:53<Ammler>but you have grfpresets...
05:53<@peter1138>I think it will truncate cargo for all cargo types after one that should be truncated.
05:54<ln>when will the TT meeting be arranged in Copenhagen?
05:54<Celestar>oh dear
05:54<Celestar>I'm really nerd. I'm usually running openttd in the debugger with -snull -vnull :P
05:55<rortom>agreed ;)
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06:00<Celestar>peter1138: When I'm caching the reachable stations, the time taken to find whether there is a reachable station is decreases from 1 million to 1000 cycles, and the destination generation from 1 million to 20000 cycles
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06:02<@peter1138>Handy.
06:03<ln>Will not the next TT meeting not be arranged anywhere but in Copenhagen?
06:03<Brianetta>I find it fascinating that the OpenTTD crowd seem to have missed the 2008 TT meet so completely.
06:03<ln>Brianetta: It hasn't been on the topic here.
06:04-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1D6AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
06:04<Brianetta>It hasn't been on the topic anywhere; it's a sticky thread in the forum.
06:04<Noldo>I have seen no mention of in on the medias I follow
06:04<Celestar>peter1138: er .. and that's with debug (=
06:04<Celestar>debug 3
06:05<Celestar>factor 50 is worth the effort, right? (=
06:06<Celestar>peter1138: I've given some thoughts about selective cache invalidation, but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle
06:07<ln>Brianetta: I don't read the forum, and therefore I assume 84.5% of other people do not read it either.
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06:07<Brianetta>ln: How on Earth do you find out about upcoming new features etc?
06:08<@peter1138>http://svn.bucks.net/~petern/waiting.diff
06:08<@peter1138>Brianetta, he doesn't ;)
06:08<Brianetta>ah
06:08<@peter1138>He doesn't know about GRFs...
06:08<@peter1138>Oh damn, too much in that diff :o
06:09<Celestar>peter1138: this does what? (=
06:09<Celestar>oh damn
06:10<Celestar>my generation code on the repo is favouring distance stations :P
06:10<@peter1138>My analysis says that wrong cargo types are truncated...
06:11<Celestar>peter1138: ok I'm down another factor of 5 in the destination generation
06:11<Celestar>4000 cycles
06:11<Celestar>compared to 1 million before (=
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06:13<Celestar>TIC/TOC is coool
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06:16<Celestar>randomrange(42) gives random numbers [0:42] or [0:42)
06:16<Celestar>?
06:16<@peter1138>What's the difference? ;)
06:17<Celestar>including or excluding 42 ;)
06:17<SpComb>Celestar: depends on the implementation
06:17<Celestar>the openttd implementation of course :P
06:17<SpComb>although imo it should be exclusive, because that's how python defines range
06:19<Celestar>what does python have to do with it
06:21<@peter1138>It's exclusive.
06:21<@peter1138>return GB(this->Next(), 0, 16) * max >> 16;
06:21<@peter1138>65535 * 100 / 65536 = 99
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06:22<Celestar>k
06:22<rortom>mh use the debian way: return 4; // determined by fair dice roll
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06:24<Progman>[citation needed]
06:27<Noldo>http://xkcd.com/221/
06:27<ln>13:08 <@peter1138> He doesn't know about GRFs... <-- I do!
06:30<ln>13:07 < Brianetta> ln: How on Earth do you find out about upcoming new features etc? <-- By reading commit messages on this channel. And as if there were new features introduced on a regular basis...
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06:34<Celestar>peter1138: pull :)
06:34*Celestar goes for lunch
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06:37<rortom>Noldo: thanks i was unable to find it :)
06:38<Brianetta>ln: COmmits aren't upcoming.
06:38<Brianetta>They're here.
06:39<Noldo>rortom: it has quite good search
06:42<Celestar>do we have any wiki maintained?
06:42<Celestar>maintainer*
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06:48<@peter1138>To do what?
06:50-!-Tekky_ is now known as Tekky
06:53<Celestar>dunno
06:53<Celestar>just wondering
06:53<@peter1138>I can do some things, but not much.
06:53<Celestar>maybe because our internal wiki maintainer just called and asked stupid question
06:53<@peter1138>Ah...
06:54<@peter1138>@seen mihamix
06:54<@DorpsGek>peter1138: mihamix was last seen in #openttd 29 weeks, 0 days, 14 hours, 32 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <MiHaMiX> s/t$/d/
06:54<@peter1138>:o
06:54<Celestar>29 weeks?!
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07:01<rortom>mh is there an option to enable the loading status in the transparent mode?
07:01<rortom>i miss it there
07:03<@SmatZ>yes
07:04<@SmatZ>lock the transparency option
07:04<@SmatZ>ctrl+click
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07:17<dih>too many kais
07:18<Celestar>peter1138: I'm not sure how to keep the caches in sync
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07:20<Celestar>it's gotten much worse with the reachcache, but it's reproducible now :P
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07:25<@peter1138>ARGHARGHARGHARGH
07:25<@peter1138>I've got MS SQL stuck in YYYY/DD/MM format dates :o
07:25<@peter1138>Celestar: can we sort the cache, and will that help?
07:26<ln>i didn't know OTTD supports MS SQL.
07:26<Celestar>peter1138: "sort" in what way?
07:26<ln>should be reading the forums apparently.
07:27<Celestar>peter1138: the reachcache is sorted by stationid
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07:29<Celestar>peter1138: that'S the one giving me a hard time
07:29<Celestar>I have a hunch
07:30<mikl>peter1138: that's got to be the most confusing date format ever :)
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07:33<Celestar>I normally use YYYYMMDD
07:34<Celestar>but yyyy/dd/mm is just stupid
07:35<Celestar>either you have LSB on the right or LSB on the left. not LSB is the middle :S
07:39<Celestar>peter1138: is it ok to populate the route cache on game load?
07:39<@peter1138>Celestar: if it's sorted by station id then it should be consistent, yes?
07:39<Brianetta>yyyy/dd/mm isn't used in any country that I know of
07:40<@peter1138>It is populated in the InitializeRouting() call in AfterLoadGame()
07:40<Celestar>peter1138: no, it's set to dirty (=
07:40<Celestar>populate means recompute it
07:40<@peter1138>Oh, the *cache*
07:40<@peter1138>Brianetta: it's an MS SQL bug. If you have it set to GB locale, it seems to swap MM with DD regardless of the format actually used.
07:40<Celestar>yes
07:41<@peter1138>Celestar, would it help?
07:41<Brianetta>Stupid yank products.
07:41<Celestar>peter1138: it helps a lot apparently
07:42<Celestar>it costs a second in load time however :P
07:42<Celestar>'*shrugs*
07:42<@peter1138>Hmm, if it helps then the route cache isn't being automatically created properly.
07:42<@peter1138>So you'll have problems anyway.
07:43<Celestar>there's some weirdness in it
07:43<Celestar>somewhere a dirty cache is being used, or the cache is not set dirty correctly
07:47<@peter1138>Did you write anything to compare the hopcache with a freshly built hopchace?
07:47<Celestar>not yet. I'm still trying to find out how to do this best
07:50<@peter1138>Hmm, I see it's not possible to have two equal cost routes load-balanced :o
07:51<Celestar>nope it's not.
07:52<Celestar>well if they go from the same A to the same B it shouldn't matter
07:52<@peter1138>well, non-shared orders count as a different route, don't they?
07:52<@peter1138>Hmm
07:52<@peter1138>Oh
07:53<@peter1138>It's a hopcache, not a route cache...
07:53<@peter1138>So the if the next hop is the same that shouldn't matter...
07:53<@peter1138>Hm.
07:53<@peter1138>I should go back to doing some work :p
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07:54<Celestar>peter1138: http://www.fvfischer.de/wtf.png
07:54<Celestar>peter1138: check the console. the "findroute" command and the last-but-one line of the debug
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08:01<@peter1138>Er, I don't understand it.
08:03<Celestar>I get a "cannot reach any stations" error for coal. but I can manually find that route
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08:06<Celestar>hey glx (=
08:07<+glx>hi
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08:18<@peter1138>Hmm, my updated station cargo view seems to work...
08:18<@peter1138>It now stores the cargo list individually for each cargo type, so that it can be sorted more easily
08:19<@peter1138>It also means we only need to update the if it changes (and the window is showing the list) instead of every time the window is redrawn
08:19<@peter1138>+list
08:22<Celestar>good
08:30<Forked>seems I got that shitty station to work.. I guess the obvious trick was to not have all the entrance and exit tracks on the same side of the station.. and instead try to even it out a bit =p
08:30<Forked>still a mess, but no clogging
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08:38<planetmaker>whooo. I just noticed. Commit 14000 last night. Well done! :)
08:39<Celestar>;)
08:43<Celestar>WEIRD
08:43<Celestar>I have apparently coded some crap somewhere
08:44*Celestar goes finding said "crap"
08:44<Noldo>maybe the crap coded itself
08:45<Celestar>yay!
08:45<Celestar>I need someone to blame
08:45*Celestar points in a random direction
08:48<@SmatZ>it wasn't me!
08:49<planetmaker>^^ you keep saying that today... ;)
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08:50<Celestar>how do I set the server to pause if no clients are connected?
08:50<planetmaker>minclients = 2
08:50<planetmaker>... =1 :)
08:51<planetmaker>or something like that in the config
08:51<Celestar>yeah
08:51<Celestar>I think I found it thanks
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08:59<Celestar>what the HELL?
09:01<Celestar>er peter1138 ?
09:02<Celestar>er no wait. false alarm
09:04<@Belugas>hello
09:05<planetmaker>hey ho
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09:10<@peter1138>Hello
09:10<@peter1138>What?
09:10<Celestar>peter1138: if you got a minute, can you have a look at Routing_t::CanReachAnyStation? It's doing crap
09:12<@peter1138>Celestar: Dunno, but swap the CanReach with the HasBit
09:12<@peter1138>The HasBit should be cheaper to process...
09:12<Gekz>it's lolcode
09:13<@peter1138>Celestar, what crap is it doing?
09:13<Celestar>have swapped
09:14<Celestar>it writes empty lists for stations that clearly shouldn't be
09:15<@peter1138>Oh wait...
09:15<@peter1138>I just updated and the code is majirly different :p
09:17<@peter1138>So ComputeReachList is not working right?
09:17<@peter1138>this->reachcache[from] = list;
09:18<@peter1138>... is not too efficient.
09:18<@peter1138>It has to copy all the data.
09:19<Celestar>yeah, but from a computing point of view, it's only run once per aeon
09:19<Celestar>I'll optimize that later, if it works
09:22<Celestar>I have a hunch
09:24<@peter1138>Well, okay...
09:25<@peter1138>Just that "this->ComputeReachList(from, this->reachcache[from]);" would do the same more efficiently.
09:25<Celestar>yes
09:25*Celestar goes overhauling the whole system
09:27<hylje>bottom up
09:27<Progman>dih: still showing "hasted"
09:28<Progman>ups
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09:31<@peter1138>Heh, my colleague just saw this bit of code ;)
09:31<@peter1138>"Oh my god that looks complex"
09:32<@Rubidium>then peter1138 said: "is not"
09:33<Celestar>peter1138: LOL
09:33<hylje>peter1138: notwork@work?
09:33<Celestar>peter1138: and you explained it to him
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09:38<@peter1138>Er, no :)
09:39<Celestar>er pity
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09:41<Celestar>\o/ infinite recursion
09:43<hylje>recursion is a representation of the infinite
09:43<Celestar>yes and no
09:43<Celestar>in programming, you normally only curse finitely
09:44<Celestar>otherwise you stack will be pissed
09:45<planetmaker>hehe. I tried that with the rivers. Pretty darn fast got a crash...
09:49<dih>there is no output from server_pw blah
09:49<dih>(setting the server password on console)
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09:55<Celestar>heh
09:55<Celestar>cache system repaired somewhat
09:56<Celestar>code more readable and less duplication
09:56<hylje>implies there's still copypasta around
09:56<Celestar>fewer than before
09:56<Celestar>tendency is --
09:57<@Belugas>Does anyone have a TTD's DOS palette available somewhere?
09:57<@Belugas>woldbe nicely appreciated
09:57<Celestar>Belugas: I might have at home. will check later
09:57<@Belugas>nice :)
09:57<Celestar>it's possibly on 3.5"
09:57<Celestar>so I need to find whether they are still readable
09:58<@Belugas>hehe
09:58<Celestar>and find a drive ^^
09:58<+glx>you want the palette only?
09:58<Celestar>peter1138: when I load a game from before tonight's merge, all my "go to nearest depot" orders have become invalid.
09:59<Celestar>peter1138: is this a side effect, or a real problem from the fixes in trunk?
09:59<@Belugas>glx, yes
10:00<@Belugas>i want to be able to compare and eventually name all the colours. I have the win one, so it wold be a matter of comparaison (and understanding of course)
10:00<+glx>I have them in paint shop pro format
10:00<Eddi|zuHause3>doesn't grfcodec know the palettes?
10:00<Eddi|zuHause3>or the grf specs?
10:01<@Belugas>perfect, glx :)
10:02<Celestar>peter1138: do you have any changes I should pull?
10:02<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause3, maybe, but it's me that i'm worried, not grfcodec, which is not what i'm working on ;)
10:02<@peter1138>No
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10:03<Celestar>peter1138: ok I have repaired my fuckup
10:03<@peter1138>Celestar, I never use 'go to nearest depot' orders...
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10:03<Celestar>peter1138: I do
10:03<Celestar>peter1138: and it's a bit annoying having to repair shitload of orders.
10:03<Celestar>peter1138: I'll check in trunk a bit later today
10:06<Celestar>peter1138: It'd be awesome if you could do some profiling on the latest repo. mine doesn't work for some reason
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10:07<Celestar>gotta go
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10:25<Eddi|zuHause3>yay for full recompiles \o/
10:26<Eddi|zuHause3>"The system detected that source.list or any configure file is altered."
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11:03<@peter1138>Celestar: RecomputeCache() is not exactly const is it?
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11:08<Eddi|zuHause3>you certainly know you're in a channel of geeks when one xkcd reference is countered by another xkcd reference...
11:08<Eddi|zuHause3>[2008-08-05 12:22] <rortom> mh use the debian way: return 4; // determined by fair dice roll
11:08<Eddi|zuHause3>[2008-08-05 12:25] <Progman> [citation needed]
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11:19<Celestar>peter1138: anything that doesn't change the class logically is const
11:20<Celestar>peter1138: for the "user", Routing behaves before any after the Recompute cache exactly the same way
11:20<Celestar>hence the const
11:24<@Rubidium>but... doesn't that mean that the compiler can keep a cache of the routing stuff somewhere and use that later on, e.g. a tick later
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11:29<Celestar>hm?
11:30<@Rubidium>const is a hint for the compiler that nothing changes
11:31<@Rubidium>if it changes the routing table and it just cached some data before the Recompute call and uses it afterwards it might be reading stale (incorrect data) evt. leading to a desync
11:33<Celestar>er
11:33<Celestar>const is not only a hint
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11:34<Celestar>const tells a compiler that nothing must change, except mutable members, otherwise it throws an error
11:35<Celestar>mutable overrides const
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11:37<Ammler>SpComb: around?
11:37<blathijs>Celestar: That sounds pretty cool :-)
11:37<@Rubidium>still, does the compiler know that it actually might change internal stuff that changes the state of the routing table?
11:38<Ammler>how is the link to your screen for the GRF Downloader again?
11:38<Celestar>Rubidium: yes
11:38<Celestar>Rubidium: because the compiler throws an error if you modify a const object
11:38<@Rubidium>you just said that it doesn't for mutable
11:38<Celestar>unless you explicitly mark the members in question as mutable
11:38<Celestar>Rubidium: the compiler knows that it is mutable (=
11:39<@Rubidium>Celestar: the compiler only sees routing.h, not the internal implementatin of the recompute, when writing the code that calls the recomputer
11:40<@Rubidium>there it doesn't know that recompute does change the state (via mutable)
11:40<SpComb>Ammler: http://photos.marttila.de/screenshots/ottdgrfs/
11:40<SpComb>what's the context for this?
11:40<Celestar>Rubidium: yes.
11:40<SpComb>(currently it's on hold until I manage to kludge the OpenTTD network code into doing what I want it to do)
11:41<@peter1138>Ammler: "what", not "how"
11:42<Celestar>Rubidium: the compiler sees the mutable members.
11:43<Celestar>Rubidium: (in .h)
11:43<@Rubidium>Celestar: so the consts of that class are all totally ignored!
11:44<Ammler>SpComb: we have a talk about our GRFPack and tars and such :-)
11:44<Celestar>const means all non-mutable members are unchanged (=
11:44<Celestar>guarranteed
11:46<@Rubidium>Celestar: but you are reading the mutable members for determining the routing stuff
11:46<blathijs>Celestar: I think the point is that the results of other methods can change after calling a const function?
11:47<@Rubidium>yes, as blathijs said
11:47<Celestar>blathijs: they don't
11:47<blathijs>Rubidium: But const doesn't guarantee anything about that
11:47<Celestar>the result (i.e. return value, out paramenters) are the same
11:47<Celestar>they only update the cache when it is dirty
11:47<Celestar>if the cache is clean, they read it
11:48<blathijs>Rubidium: You might expect const to give such guarantees, but it doesn't :-)
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11:49<Celestar>going
11:49<Ammler>peter1138: thanks, btw. :-)
11:51<@Rubidium>blathijs: that's a very stupid design choice then (IMO)
---Logclosed Tue Aug 05 11:56:59 2008
---Logopened Tue Aug 05 11:57:01 2008
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11:57<@Rubidium>you are saying keep the current one (or that's what I understand)
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11:57<Eddi|zuHause3>no, i said improve the current one to cope with very low transportation levels
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause3>the current system is kind of a sinus-curve, because it only accounts for the last visit, not for the actual distance between visits
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause3>so it doesn't really stabelises
11:59<Eddi|zuHause3>-es
11:59<Eddi|zuHause3>+e
11:59<@peter1138>sinus-curve?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause3>it also does not care for capacity
11:59<@peter1138>Gets up your nose?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause3>peter1138: ?
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12:00<Eddi|zuHause3>i say: reduce the dependency of ratings from the stockpile, and add a dependency of vehicle capacity and frequency
12:01<Eddi|zuHause3>if i schedule a train with capacity of 1000 every 30 days, the rating should be stable if the stockpile is <1000 and the last vehicle is <30 days ago
12:03<Eddi|zuHause3>so, like, there is not much difference if i have a train with 100 capacity every 10 days, or a train with 500 capacity every 50 days
12:03<Eddi|zuHause3>since both can transport the same amount of cargo in the long term
12:05<Eddi|zuHause3>it would encurage stable clockwork networks instead of greedy take-all-you-can networks
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12:10<Eddi|zuHause3>what i am aiming at: if you can only transport 10% of the cargo, only 10% of the cargo should show up at the station, not 70%, and then get mad at you for not transporting them...
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12:11<@Rubidium>that's going to kill your ECS industries
12:11<Eddi|zuHause3>that's an ECS problem :p
12:11<@Belugas>[11:59] <@peter1138> Gets up your nose? <--- lol
12:12<@Rubidium>and it's going to kill normal industries too, because of the low rating
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12:14<Eddi|zuHause3>that is really a secondary problem, balancing the industry system to the new ratings. it is probably sufficient to leave both the changed rating as well as the changed industry behaviour to newgrfs
12:14<Eddi|zuHause3>afaik newgrfs have already the ability to tweak ratings
12:15<Eddi|zuHause3>it should just get additional variables to base the calculations on
12:16<Eddi|zuHause3>but it is really impossible to get 70% of a standard industry transported with horse carriages
12:16<Eddi|zuHause3>or the passengers that pile up in a paxdest game
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12:29<@peter1138>*sigh*
12:29<@peter1138> if (re.IsMatch(inputEmail)) {
12:29<@peter1138> return (true);
12:29<@peter1138> else
12:29<@peter1138> return (false);
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12:34<@Rubidium>but... true and false might be a macro!
12:35<Eddi|zuHause3>or objects with a default property accessor
12:35<hylje>#define true false
12:35<hylje>#define false true
12:37<Eddi|zuHause3>true = new ValidationCheck("FileNotFound");
12:39<Eddi|zuHause3>ValidationCheck::operator==(...){...} :p
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12:44<@Belugas>docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif is wrong, some values are not really exact
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12:46<@Belugas>oh...normal...
12:47<@Belugas>mmh
12:47<@Belugas>it's the "OpenTTD Palette Colours: stuff that screws a bit the palette
12:49<@Belugas>oh boy... i just found out an old installatin of Open, rel. 0.4.5
12:49<@Belugas>antiques!
12:49<dih>hello Belugas
12:49<@Belugas>do i know you?
12:49<@Rubidium>Belugas: nah, 0.1.4 is antique
12:50<Eddi|zuHause3>Belugas: signs of Alzheimer? ;)
12:51<@Belugas>hehe
12:51<@Belugas>yeah, it's within my age-range :)
12:52<@Belugas>hello dih, i do indeed kow you :)
12:52<@Belugas>know
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12:54<@Belugas>giving meaninfull name to 255 colours is quite a tedious job
12:55<Eddi|zuHause3>green1..green10?
12:56<@Belugas>meaningfull, Eddi|zuHause3, meaningfull :)
12:56<Eddi|zuHause3>greenthatlookslikeasandwich5weeksold
12:56<Wolf01>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors
12:57<@Belugas>heheh
13:00<Eddi|zuHause3>but really, what is wrong with a naming scheme in the likes of <base colour><lightness%>?
13:02<@Belugas>in code, it would look a bit strange
13:02<@Belugas>i'm trying to enumifying all hardcoded colour values
13:02<@Belugas>trtying to make a bit more... clear
13:04<@Belugas>and regrouped logically too
13:04<@Belugas>like the animated ones and such
13:04<@Belugas>i just do not know how deep i should go
13:05<Wolf01>I started directly with 20 colors defined in my project, so if I need to use one of them I should only remember its name :P
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13:15<dih>server_pw used to bring the output 'server_pw' changed to:
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13:15<dih>where has that gone to?
13:16<@Belugas>to to?
13:17<dih>seriously
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13:18*peter1138 considers what to do...
13:20<dih>just missed the output
13:20<dih>it used to be there, i know that :-P
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13:20<dih>autopilot used to rely on it as a trigger
13:20<dih>to know when the password was manually changed
13:21<@Belugas>dunno, dih
13:21<@Belugas>have you checked the svn logs?
13:21<dih>shame
13:21<dih>well - i can only guess that it dissappeared when things were moved around on the console
13:21<dih>so that server_pw now is an alias to patch server_password
13:22<dih>rather than a console variable
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13:34<Eddi|zuHause3>but "patch <variable> <value>" still yields output like "new value: <value>"
13:34<Eddi|zuHause3>i think
13:35<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't use the console very often ;)
13:35<@Belugas>does the array "_extra_palette_values" is used anywehere else than on gfx.cpp DoPaletteAnimations?
13:35<@Belugas>Does -> Is
13:36<@Belugas>answer seems to be no, from what i can tell
13:37<Eddi|zuHause3>just remove it, and then see where it crashes :p
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13:41<@Belugas>hehe
13:42<@Belugas>before crashing, it will fail to compile :P
13:42<@Belugas>and since i cannot compile from where i am right now, it's pretty useless ;)
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14:13<Tekky>when I use the "list_patches" console command in the console, it no longer displays the YAPP patch variables. Is this due to the history buffer of the console being too small to remember all the output of the list_patches command? Is there a way to increase the size of the history buffer of the console?
14:14<Eddi|zuHause3>i think you can "list_patches <prefix>"
14:25<Tekky>nope, not possible :(
14:26<Eddi|zuHause3>it really should ;)
14:27<Eddi|zuHause3>maybe that was only proposed back then...
14:34<@peter1138>Rubidium, is there a reason why we only use 8 digits of the hg changeset identifier?
14:35-!-kais58 [~kais58@78.149.59.44] has joined #openttd
14:35<@Rubidium>so it fit-ish in the revision string
14:36<@peter1138>What's the maximum length of that?
14:36<@Rubidium>15 incl. '
14:36<@Rubidium>15 incl. '\0'
14:37<@Rubidium>IIRC
14:37<@Rubidium>yes, 15
14:42<@peter1138>Reason I ask is that 'cut -c19-26' is not particularly optimal...
14:42<@peter1138>OpenTTD h:2e147ee
14:43<@Rubidium>they changed hg? booh!
14:44<hylje>boo-hoo
14:44<@peter1138>Hmm, well `hg tip | awk -F: '/changeset/ { print $3; }'` gets the whole thing.
14:44<@peter1138>But we seem to have removed all trace of awk.
14:44<@peter1138>oh, it's $awk, heh
14:44<@peter1138>or AWK
14:45<@peter1138>Hmm
14:45<@Rubidium>the "problem" is that the branch comes after the revision number
14:45<@peter1138>Why is that a problem?
14:45<@Rubidium>ofcourse with hg you don't really work with branches
14:45<@peter1138>The problem is someone fixed it to character position...
14:46<@Rubidium>well, you need to truncate the changeset info
14:46<@peter1138>12 is less than 15 ;)
14:46<@Rubidium>and actually use the part after the colon after the numerical revision
14:47<@Rubidium>or is that doing awk magic I'm missing
14:47<@peter1138>12 + h + M + \0 is, indeed, 15
14:47<@peter1138>It's the third field, as separated by :
14:48<@peter1138>Of course, that assumes that all verions of hg output it that way :o
14:48<@peter1138>Celestar, so is the cache fixed now?
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14:50*Eddi|zuHause3 /disconnect
14:51<Eddi|zuHause3>that was not it...
14:53<@Belugas>can I help you?
14:54<@Belugas>hehehe
14:54<Eddi|zuHause3>no, i am trying out the DCOP interface to Konversation
14:58<ln>http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/AA757Lover/Airline%20ads/Finnair.jpg
15:09<@peter1138>Hmm
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15:34-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
15:34<dragonhorseboy>hey
15:35<@Bjarni>hello dragonhorseboy
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15:36<dragonhorseboy>how're you bjarni?
15:37-!-Eddi|zuHause3 [~johekr@p54B75E7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
15:42<@Bjarni>around average, I guess
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15:43<dragonhorseboy>doing ok here..just annoyed with the incomptent people at a particular office .. nothing real to worry about tho
15:44<ln>Bjarni (and others): http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Sampo-UhOh.aspx
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15:47<rortom>oh, great bank :|
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15:49<@Bjarni>There is a general "windows explorer" loving community in Denmark called online banking
15:50<@Bjarni>hence the reason I never really got into how it actually works
15:51<dragonhorseboy>dunno if its just this city or the transportation office can't tell any difference between "tractor" and "straight body" trucks .. oh well... *goes to read another train magazine*
15:52<@Bjarni>One disgruntled customer took an axe to a wooden desk at a Sampo branch after learning his account was supposedly empty. <--- if it contained my life savings I would have gone to the police and reported a theft
15:53<@Bjarni>and it's actually a severe kind of theft as they are intrusted with valuables they don't own. Stealing something like that is way more severe than stealing it from just a random person
15:54<dragonhorseboy>ic.. axe to desk? :-S
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>i have absolutely no problem accessing my online banking site in konqueror
15:55<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: you aren't using a Danish bank, right? ;)
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>unlikely ;)
15:56<@Bjarni>then you aren't affected by the group I just mentioned
15:57<@Bjarni>now get this: it's for security reasons they only allow IE
15:57<@Bjarni>firefox is banned for security issues
15:57<@Bjarni>that's the official statement about it
15:58<blathijs>Uh?
15:58<@Bjarni>you can say that again
16:03<dragonhorseboy>bjarni...how is IE with *less security* actually allowed to be alone?
16:03<@Bjarni>don't ask me
16:03<dragonhorseboy>:p
16:04<@peter1138>BUT HE DID
16:04<Ammler>he, I can remember how I complained about that to my bank about 5 years ago...
16:05<Ammler>I wasn't the onlyone :-)
16:05<Ammler>not for Firefox, but for Opera.
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: does it work when you tell firefox to "identify as IE"?
16:05-!-grumbel [~grumbel@i577B813C.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
16:05<@Bjarni>I don't know
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16:06<Eddi|zuHause>konqeror has this entry in the "tips" section: "Verwenden Sie die Funktion Browserkennung ändern, falls eine besuchte Website Sie dazu auffordert, einen anderen Browser zu benutzen (und vergessen Sie nicht, sich beim Webmaster zu beschweren)."
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>+u
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16:12<Alberth>The question is, would you trust a bank that considers Firefox unsafe :)
16:18<blathijs>From reading the wtf article, I think that's just a minor issue
16:20<Celestar>peter1138: I think so, yes
16:20<Celestar>peter1138: I haven't made a direct comparison however
16:25<Celestar>peter1138: is your server up?
16:25<@peter1138>Err...
16:26<@peter1138>game server or hg?
16:26<@peter1138>I've not made any changes today.
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16:28<Celestar>k
16:29<Celestar>I'm going to solve the if-mess in economy.cpp (VehilePayment)
16:29<SpComb>http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/artikkeli/Rahatta+j%C3%A4%C3%A4nyt+mies+hakkasi+pankkitiski%C3%A4+kirveell%C3%A4/1135235277019
16:29<@peter1138>Yeah, there is some redundancy there, or was.
16:29<SpComb>although that claims that it wasn't related to the IT-glitches
16:31<SpComb>http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/artikkeli/Sampo-pankin+rakennuksessa+h%C3%A4irik%C3%B6inyt+yh%C3%A4+tavoittamatta/1135235310757 <-- that's another article about a customer emptying a fire extinguisher into a Sampo Pankki branch
16:32<Celestar>peter1138: and inconsistency
16:32<Celestar>peter1138: I've sorted it out mostly already
16:34<@peter1138>Cool
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>TRWTF is that this is a perfect instance of "never change a running system"
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16:37<SpComb>don't fix what isn't broken
16:38<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: ?
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>especially in the paranoid banking sector, where they put each transaction through an identical chain in a second computer system in nuclear safe bunker
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>i can't understand why they would pull a stunt like this
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: not about you ;)
16:39<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: heh
16:39<Celestar>we need another playtest of cargodest in the not-too distance future ..
16:39<@peter1138>Like now?
16:40-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd []
16:41<+glx>Celestar: without newgrfs
16:43<Celestar>peter1138: I'll go offline in a new minutes, but I will not keep you ;)
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16:46<Celestar>glx without newgrfs is a good idea possibly
16:47<Celestar>if everything else fails, try a) rebuilding the caches after game load or b) reset the routing system of the server
16:47<+glx>it's always better to do "desync" tests in a clean environment ;)
16:47<Celestar>"rn rr"
16:47<Celestar>glx: true
16:52<Celestar>just keep me posted
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16:53<dragonhorseboy>I'm a bit curious about one thing...
16:54-!-CIA-5 [~CIA@208.69.182.149.simpli.biz] has joined #openttd
16:54<dragonhorseboy>is it plauseable to run openttd on top of low-level emulator to that it could work on a few game consoles? (I meant actual one, not handheld's)
16:54<dragonhorseboy>beside I know there's several that had offical keyboard/mouse device support
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>many newer game consoles can run linux
16:56<Tefad>or BSD
16:58<Celestar>or both
16:58<Celestar>:P
16:59<Celestar>good night
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17:00<dragonhorseboy>eddi...not quite
17:00<dragonhorseboy>so .. question is .. is it possible to get openttd ported in this manner or not really?
17:00<Celestar>anything is possible ;)
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17:03<dragonhorseboy>hmm so celestar.. SH-4 200mhz with 16mb of ram good to go? :p
17:14<dragonhorseboy>? ^-^
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17:18<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: you need an sdl port for the console
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>and i have no idea, what an "SH-4" is
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>and these stats look awfully close to the minimum requirements of openttd
17:22<dragonhorseboy>heh its hitachi (now renesas)'s processor anyway
17:22<dragonhorseboy>still in production to today oddly enough
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17:25<ln>Eddi|zuHause: re-paste, because you probably were offline: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Sampo-UhOh.aspx
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>ln: there exist !logs
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>ln: didn't you notice that i replied to that?
17:27<ln>omg, i didn't know anyone can use !logs without saying !logs
17:27<ln>i did, but you could have been replying to what Bjarni and others were saying.
17:28<@Bjarni>huh?
17:28<@Bjarni>oh
17:29<@Bjarni>you weren't talking to me :s
17:29<@Bjarni>maybe that's a good thing :P
17:32<ln>in general, switching to the Danske Bank web bank system is said to be a 10-year jump back in time in usability.
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17:33<dragonhorseboy>:p
17:33<@Bjarni>wouldn't surprise me
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18:00<dragonhorseboy>quiet now
18:00<@Bjarni>yeah
18:00<@Bjarni>you farted and then everybody left
18:01<dragonhorseboy>not me
18:01<dragonhorseboy>;)
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18:25<Zuu>um, he did...
18:27<Tefad>oops
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18:36*SmatZ just found Michael Moore...
18:36<@Bjarni>in your house?
18:38<@SmatZ>no, a documentarist :) in TV
18:38<@SmatZ>at TV
18:38<@SmatZ>or so... I am never sure about prepositions :-/
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>on TV ;)
18:44<@SmatZ>like "I am sitting on TV"? :-)
18:45<@SmatZ>maybe it has something to do with article - like "on TV" (media) is somethine different than "on the TV" (my box :)
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, unlike "i am sitting on the TV[-set]". where you would sit on the physical object
18:45<@SmatZ>agreed
18:45<@SmatZ>:)
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18:46<Eddi|zuHause>note that i am not a native speaker either, but i am pretty sure about that one ;)
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>also note that in german you would say "im Fernsehen"
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>(not to confuse with "im Fernseher")
18:48<@SmatZ>:-)
18:49<@SmatZ>die Fernseher = media, der (das?) Fernseher = "box"?
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>"das Fernseh[e]n" = the broadcast, "der Fernseher" = the TV set
18:50<@SmatZ>aha sorry :-x thanks :-)
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>"fernseh[e]n" = the action of watching TV
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>"im" [=contraction of "in dem"] is never used when the article is "die"
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>"die" -> "in der"
18:53<@SmatZ>you are very right
18:53<@SmatZ>ma fault :-x
18:53<@SmatZ>my
18:53<@SmatZ>shame on me, I am not even able to type
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>just pretend you were trying to write french ;))
18:55<@SmatZ>errr yeah I was :)
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19:07<+glx>in french it's easier
19:07<+glx>it's just "la télévision"
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19:13<@SmatZ>"0
19:13<@SmatZ>:)
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21:09<nicfer>any hints on how to make openttd more addictive?
21:12<@SmatZ>it can be more addictive_
21:12<@SmatZ>?
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21:15<nicfer>I mean, I lose my interest after some minutes
21:16<Yexo>start playing with paxdest
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 06 00:00:35 2008