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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-07

---Logopened Thu Aug 07 00:00:11 2008
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02:48<Celestar>morning
02:48<@peter1138>hi
02:50<Celestar>hows it going peter1138 ?
02:51<@peter1138>ok
02:51<Celestar>any new developments (=
02:51<@peter1138>Buttons for sorting
02:52<Celestar>cool
02:52<Celestar>pushed already?
02:52<@peter1138>On http://84.246.155.101:8000/
02:53<Celestar>thanks
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02:55<@peter1138>Makes the destination view much more useful, sorting by cargo waiting.
02:55<Celestar>I can imagine
02:55<Celestar>pulling a rebuilding
02:56<Celestar>s/a/and
02:58<Celestar>did you get a chance to do some profiling?
02:59<@peter1138>no
03:04<Suisse>\o/ assertion failed
03:05<Celestar>peter1138: oh .. profiling works now
03:07<Celestar>peter1138: MUHAHAHA
03:07<Celestar>> gprof openttd | grep Routing_t | head -n3 0.07 25.70 0.02 1764518 0.00 0.00 Routing_t::FindNextHop(unsigned short, unsigned short) const 0.07 25.74 0.02 1669320 0.00 0.00 Routing_t::UseVehicle(Vehicle const*, unsigned short, bool) const 0.04 26.59 0.01 1782248 0.00 0.00 Routing_t::RecomputeCache(unsigned short) const
03:08<Celestar>there are the three most expensive routing functions
03:08<Celestar>at 0.07, 0.07 and 0.04 %
03:08<@peter1138>C++ is inefficient... remember?
03:08<Celestar>yes. VERY
03:08<@peter1138>At least, everyone always said so, heh...
03:08<Celestar>9.12 2.54 2.54 7189643 0.00 0.00 Blitter_8bppOptimized::Draw(Blitter::BlitterParams*, BlitterMode, ZoomLevel)
03:09<Celestar>this takes about ONE HUNDRED times as much time as the routing system (with 200 active vehicles and all cargo routed)
03:10*Celestar stops thinking about optimizing Routing_t at once
03:10<Suisse>waaaa i'm not lucky with damn assert today :'(
03:10<Celestar>peter1138: the sortable cargo view is awesome
03:10<Celestar>Suisse: what are you doing?
03:10<Suisse>2 assert in less than 5 minutes ^^'
03:10<Celestar>peter1138: you forgot to adjust the TODO file (=
03:11<Celestar>peter1138: http://www.fvfischer.de/profile <= full profile
03:12<Celestar>HEH
03:12<@peter1138>So the real question is why did the other patches have performance problems, and why is the rest of the code so slow? :P
03:12<Celestar>we spend more time in GetCharacterWidth than in the entire routing system :P
03:13<Celestar>peter1138: caches?
03:13<Celestar>peter1138: or we're just better :P
03:14<Celestar>peter1138: I'm trying to use a bigger game
03:16<Celestar>peter1138: I dunno, but the three real C++ components: YAPF, YAPP and Cargodest have no noticable performance impact on the game :P
03:21<Suisse>someone know about the presignal entry bug?
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03:21<@Rubidium>maybe
03:22<planetmaker>morning
03:23<planetmaker>Suisse: what kind of behaviour do you refer to as bug?
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03:23<Suisse>if you are trying do drag you mouse on a train line where is a presignal entry, the next signal will be presignal entry instead of current signal
03:23<sid3windr>ln: on Windows? :)
03:23<Suisse>yes
03:24<Celestar>Hhey Rubidium :D
03:24<@Rubidium>Celestar: retry without newgrfs ;)
03:24<Celestar>Rubidium: retry what?
03:24<Celestar>the profiling?
03:24<Suisse>i have no newgrfs :/
03:25<@Rubidium>Celestar: yup
03:25<Celestar>Rubidium: only if you have a large newgrf-free savegame (=
03:25<@Rubidium>Celestar: Pile Transport
03:25<@Rubidium>Suisse: I've got no idea what I need to do to reproduce that
03:25<Celestar>Rubidium: where is it?
03:25<Suisse>(but i didn't remove newgrf in the r14005 ^^')
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03:26<Celestar>peter1138: so what remains? the vehicle-type view and the station size thingy
03:27<Suisse>i can have the same problem with r14005
03:27<@Rubidium>Celestar: http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/MemberZone:Archive#gameid_04
03:28<Celestar>thanks
03:28<Suisse>Rubidium linux or mac?
03:29<@Rubidium>Linux, but that doesn't matter
03:29<Suisse>maybe a wrong predefine :O
03:29<@Rubidium>as if the game code runs on defines?
03:30<Suisse>run no, compiled yes :o
03:30<Celestar>Rubidium: there is something very very very wrong with that game
03:30<Celestar>Rubidium: non of the vehicles move
03:30<@Rubidium>remove your default newgrfs
03:30<Celestar>*sigh*
03:30<@Rubidium>it's a game from before the "save newgrfs in savegame", so it takes the newgrfs from your default config
03:31<@peter1138>Yeah, signal dragging copies pre-signals now.
03:31<Suisse>:)
03:31<Celestar>Rubidium: that's better (=
03:31<@peter1138>Should be simple to fix.
03:31<Suisse>just the presignal entry
03:31<Suisse>ya :o
03:32<Suisse>and i don't want to search by myself x)
03:34<Celestar>Rubidium: not that you transport much cargo in Pile transport with destinations activated :P
03:35<Celestar>Rubidium: bah... they did only 117kunits of cargo on that one ..
03:35<Celestar>my YAPP-test game had 2.5 million
03:36<Celestar>that's about 20 times as much
03:36<@Rubidium>hmm, so it isn't their biggest one?
03:36<Celestar>vehicle wise yeah
03:36<Celestar>1000 trains
03:36<planetmaker>Moin, Rubidium: we had bigger games.
03:37<@peter1138>Suisse, no, copies all pre-signal types...
03:37<Suisse>hu
03:37<planetmaker>but not newgrf free games
03:37<planetmaker>peter1138: usually dragging only makes sense with pbs signals, pbs one-way signals and normal one-way...
03:38<@peter1138>planetmaker, yes, I'm talking about a bug...
03:38<@Rubidium>planetmaker: according to your website it is "our largest game ever"
03:38<planetmaker>Rubidium: at that time (2005) :)
03:38<Suisse>ho yes
03:38<Suisse>my error
03:38<@Rubidium>planetmaker: then fix that and tell us what is the largest game ever!
03:39<planetmaker>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_81_-_90#gameid_81
03:39<planetmaker>^^ I think.
03:39<Celestar>Rubidium: no noticable impact of cargodest (=
03:39<Celestar>on Pile Transport
03:39<planetmaker>but much less compact than your game
03:39<Suisse>only normal signal work :/
03:40<Celestar>ok
03:41<@peter1138>Suisse: huh?
03:41<Suisse>nothing :O
03:41<@peter1138>It's copying the signal type for everything, a normal signal will obviously be copied as a normal signal
03:42<Celestar>bah
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03:42<Celestar>how do I obtained the population of a town tile
03:42<Celestar>obtain*
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03:42<Celestar>I want some system that generations an equal amount of passengers (statistically) from A->B than from B->SA
03:42<Celestar>s/SA/A
03:43<Wolf01>hello
03:44<Ammler>our biggest passenger game: http://openttdcoop.ppcis.org/wiki/Image:RBC002.sav
03:44<Celestar>thanks Ammler
03:45<@peter1138>rail_cmd.cpp:1071
03:46<Celestar>Ammler: do you have a grf list for that one?
03:46<Ammler>Celestar: I am checking, if current coop pack works with it
03:46<Celestar>Ammler: awesome
03:48<Celestar>peter1138: for the station sizes concerning passengers and mail, we could just use the amount of passengers/mail that was generated, right?
03:48<planetmaker>Celestar: you're routing everything so far, or just PAX?
03:49<Celestar>planetmaker: configurable
03:49<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14012 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r13936): Don't copy pre-signal type when dragging signals.
03:49<planetmaker>nice :)
03:49<planetmaker>and nice commit :)
03:49<Celestar>(=
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03:49<Suisse>ho so it's not a new feature :O
03:49<Suisse>\o/
03:49<Celestar>planetmaker: currently only two items left on the TODO list
03:49<Celestar>plus one or two minor things in the code
03:50<planetmaker>^ ?
03:50<Celestar>1) Improve destination generation (bias the PRNG by station size)
03:51<planetmaker>Sounds like pretty quick progress :)
03:51<planetmaker>Hehe. All people from Munich central going to Kleinkleckersdorf village station :P
03:51<Celestar>2) Minimap a) color the beams by vehicle-type
03:51<Celestar>planetmaker: about. yeah (=
03:52<Ammler>Celestar: seems to work nice with GRFPack 7.1
03:52<Celestar>Ammler: where is it?
03:52<Ammler>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/GRF
03:52<Celestar>peter1138: we need to adapt the configure script so that it searches for adjacencylist.hpp
03:52<Celestar>thanks Ammler
03:53<Ammler>well, you will have the most already
03:53<Ammler>DBSet is the trainset
03:53<Celestar>XL?
03:54<Ammler>Celestar: yes
03:54<Ammler>350 stations
03:55<Ammler>512² map
03:55<Ammler>but only 290 trains and 350 rvs/trams
03:56<Ammler>Hiroshima Tramset might also be important
03:58<Celestar>Ammler: don't get Routing CPU usage above 1% with that one either
03:59<@Rubidium>yeah, but is the routing actually the part that takes the CPU power or is it the fact that there are many many more packets?
04:00<Celestar>Rubidium: I don't think the amount of packets have a huge influence on CPU power, but memory consumption
04:02<@Rubidium>loadunload vehicle and age cargo are certainly negatively influenced
04:02<@Rubidium>and improved loading seems to get messed up with cargopackets (at least when I tried it a while ago)
04:02<Yexo>Celestar: can you try http://www.student.tue.nl/V/t.i.marinussen/game.sav ? I can notice the difference between switching the destinations on and off
04:02<Ammler>those stations have waiting pax around >10k
04:03<Ammler>we played that game right after you broke the 4k limit, we had then sometimes 100k or more waiting pax there... :-)
04:07<@Rubidium>oh noes... a limit has been broken? Lets fix it ;)
04:07<planetmaker>o_O :)
04:07<planetmaker>first learn the rules, then bend the rules, then forget the rules.
04:09<Ammler>Rubidium: you introduced then the soft- and hardlimit :-)
04:09<planetmaker>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_91_-_100#gameid_96 <-- might be an interesting test, too. 3 cities with approx 2.7 million inhabitants and extensive s-bahn
04:09<Celestar>Rubidium: we need to merge cargopackets
04:09<Celestar>Rubidium: based on age
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04:10<Celestar>Rubidium: the most expensive thing is when you have millions of cargopackets
04:10<planetmaker>transported cargo in that game approx 500000 pax per month
04:11<Celestar>Rubidium: do you know anything about the improved loading code?
04:13<@Rubidium>a little
04:13<Celestar>Rubidium: would you mind to have a look at it?
04:13<Celestar>because I know zip
04:14<@Rubidium>I know nothing of the whole routing stuff
04:14<@Rubidium>and improved loading is dead simple
04:14<@peter1138>Improved loading fails a bit with destinations :(
04:14<@Rubidium>1) you have an ordered list (on arrival time) of vehicles
04:14<@Rubidium>2) you have a list with the amount of cargo of each kind
04:15<Celestar>peter1138: where does it fail?
04:15<@Rubidium>3) you for over list #1 with #2 as parameter and you decrease the amount of cargo whenever full load has been selected on that vehicle by the number of "items" it can store in the vehicle
04:16<@peter1138>Cargo quantity is allocated but destination is ignored.
04:16<@Rubidium>4) when amount of cargo (list #2) is 0 you can't load anything
04:16<Yexo>in one of the previous cargodestination patches, the loading was dead slow. IIRC thsi was because on every tick (or every few ticks) only one cargo packed is loaded, so if you have to load lots of small cargo packes, it takes a lot longer
04:16<Celestar>we don'T have that problem (=
04:16<@peter1138>Heh, no
04:17*peter1138 checks the source.
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04:18<@peter1138>LoadUnloadStation()
04:18<@peter1138>int cargo_left[NUM_CARGO]
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04:21<@peter1138>and economy.cpp:1508
04:23<@peter1138>We need to reserve cargo on a per-destination basis :(
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04:24<Celestar>yes
04:25<Celestar>Rubidium: peter1138: we also need to merge the packets. dunno how but we need to do it, otherwise the cargolists become so long that the looping give a noticable impact and the game "stutters" even tho CPU load is far from 100%
04:25<Celestar>peter1138: plus the whole thing in Routing_t as well (=
04:25<Celestar>plug*
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04:26<Celestar>and NoRouting_t
04:26<Celestar>paste the current code in NoRouting_t (=
04:27<Celestar>peter1138: we need to reserve cargo on a per-nexthop basis I think, don't we?
04:29<Celestar>so maybe make a list of nexthops
04:29<Celestar>(which is easy, it's just the edge list)
04:29<Celestar>out_edge_list
04:30<Celestar>and make a std::vector out of cargo_left
04:31<Celestar>LoadUnloadVehicle then gets the nexts only the cargo_left[v->nexthop] something
04:31<Celestar>s/the nexts//
04:37<@peter1138>Right, yes, nexthop, not destination...
04:38<@peter1138>What about cargo without a destination?
04:38<Celestar>FCFS?
04:39<Celestar>doesn't matter, it's only transitional when enabling the function in game
04:39<Celestar>so assign to the first nexthop in the list?
04:40*Celestar is just browsing through the other paxdest patch
04:40<Celestar>return (uint32)sqrt(DistanceSquare(t0, t1));
04:40<@peter1138>Well, it matters if you don't have destinations enabled :)
04:40<Celestar>yeah baby
04:40<@peter1138>sqrt !?
04:40<Celestar>peter1138: then don't use the nexthop
04:41<Celestar>peter1138: yes, sqrt :)
04:41<@peter1138>Does it have a "GoSlowOnceADay()" function?
04:41<Celestar>looking (=
04:41<@peter1138>Or was it monthly? I never tried it.
04:41<@peter1138>I looked at the source and hated it ;)
04:42<@peter1138>I mean... all that extra junk saved in a new chunk for cargo packets... how odd.
04:42<Celestar>it totally lacks const
04:44<Celestar>for (o = first; o->dest != st->index; o = o->next) ; <= error o->GetType() maybe != OT_GOTO_STATION
04:44<Celestar>oh it's checked later :o
04:45<Celestar>er wait, no
04:46<@peter1138>Heh
04:50<Celestar>peter1138: honestly, I dunno why the previous patch was slow
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04:50<Celestar>except that it looped all the passenger cargopackets once each month (=
04:51<Celestar>peter1138: so are you working on the gradualloading thingy?
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05:13<@peter1138>Nope.
05:13<@peter1138>You have received a PGP Universal Secured Message from:
05:13<@peter1138>To read this message securely, please click this link:
05:13<@peter1138>Defeating the point, somewhat :o
05:14<@peter1138>Plus the link doesn't work, heh...
05:14<planetmaker>now, that's secure indeed :P
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05:22<Celestar>lol
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05:33<Celestar>heh
05:35<Wolf01>anybody who wants to help me on drag&drop road stations? (so they will support also extending adjacent stations like rail stations do)
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05:38<ln>someone holds down the mouse button while you move the mouse?
05:38<Celestar>rofl
05:38<@peter1138>Wolf01, I can't help at the moment but I will support the idea. Just code it nicely ;)
05:39<@peter1138>Placing multiple road stops is quite painful currently.
05:39<Wolf01>ln: maybe I'm trying to do this for 2 weeks without getting something working?
05:40<Wolf01>thank you peter1138 ;) the main problem about them is the 16 bays limit, but I have enough troubles with drag&drop to solve before that :P
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05:41<Celestar>Wolf01: it's a problem?
05:42<Celestar>Wolf01: static const uint LIMIT = 16; ///< The maximum amount of roadstops that are allowed at a single station
05:42<Celestar>there's your problem (=
05:42<Wolf01>no, if I raise the limit I only move away the problem
05:42<Celestar>it's just there because DV insisted it to be there
05:43<Celestar>just raise to 64 if you want to (=
05:43<Wolf01>I want to keep all the things as they are now, maybe I'll put a max bays patch options like the max station size
05:44<Wolf01>but the problem is with the drag&drop, I need to count how many bays are already joined with the station I want to extend
05:44<@peter1138>That seems quite easy.
05:45<@peter1138>There must already be a counter...
05:45<Celestar>I should convert multistop into a std::list
05:46<blathijs>hehe
05:46<@peter1138>What is it currently?
05:46<@peter1138>Just an array
05:46<@peter1138>?
05:46<Wolf01>and the other 2 problems are: 1) if I drag an area of 5x4, where it will put the bays? 2) how does the drag&drop work, I was able to make a lot of features with that, but seem that something changed and I'm not able anymore
05:47<@Rubidium>peter1138: linked list inside the roadstop struct
05:47<Celestar>peter1138: no a linked list
05:47<Celestar>peter1138: std::list-by-hand
05:47<@peter1138>Wolf01, for directional, limit to 1-dimension
05:47<@Rubidium>like is done for vehicles and orders
05:48<@peter1138>For drive through, 5x4 is fine.
05:48<Celestar>yeah
05:48<Celestar>bus stop on a 8-lane instate?!
05:52<@peter1138>heh
05:58<Celestar>guys, is this any useful? http://www.fvfischer.de/thruput.png
05:59<Celestar>it shows the station input, output and throughput
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06:00<Martijn>Hello :)
06:00<blathijs>Celestar: And why are there six numbers for passengers then?
06:00<blathijs>hi Martijn
06:00<@peter1138>Celestar, from the other patch?
06:00<@peter1138>I think it's confusing.
06:00<@peter1138>No explanation of the data.
06:01<fonso>I'll make you an iterator as alternative to BEGIN_TILE_LOOP and END_TILE_LOOP and also implement diagonal tile looping sanely: http://paste.openttd.org/41913
06:01<Martijn>Does anyone here know how to set a money limit to a game?
06:02<Martijn>I'm running a dedicated OpenTTD server and I think this would be a nice feature, but I cant seem to find the setting for it
06:02<@peter1138>fonso, is it possible for that to be Tile_t::iterator or TileIndex::iterator, like other (stl) C++ iterators?
06:02<@peter1138>Dunno though...
06:02<fonso>It would be illogical
06:02<fonso>I'm not looping over a single tile
06:02<fonso>but over the map array
06:02<@peter1138>Ah.
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06:03<@peter1138>Map_t::iterator ;)
06:03<@peter1138>hehe
06:03<fonso>but we have different ways of iterating
06:03<@peter1138>I'm joking now.
06:03<fonso>we need different iterators
06:03<@peter1138>Certainly an iterator is nicer than a macro.
06:03<fonso>it will be slower too
06:03<fonso>but you can still use the macro in critical places
06:03<@peter1138>Why?
06:04<fonso>because of virtual members
06:04<@peter1138>Does it need virtual members?
06:04<fonso>otherwise we don't get a common base class
06:04<@peter1138>Right, but do we need a common base class?
06:04<@peter1138>The operations are not interchangable are they?
06:05<fonso>it would be nice in terraform_cmd.cpp
06:05<@peter1138>Or maybe they are...
06:05<fonso>they are there
06:05<fonso>depending on a flag I construct one iterator or the other
06:05<fonso>and then use them interchangeable
06:06<@peter1138>Hmm, however
06:07<@peter1138>If you used the OrthIterator directly would it still be virtual? Probably, I guess...
06:07<fonso>no
06:07<Celestar>peter1138: it's not finished
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06:07<fonso>or I don't know
06:07<@peter1138>Celestar, what isn't?
06:07<Celestar>blathijs: one set current month, one set last month
06:08<fonso>if the compiler is stupid it might look for further subclasses
06:08<Celestar>peter1138: dunno, I've made with patch for r870 (old repo) years ago
06:08<Celestar>s/with/the
06:08<@peter1138>Heh
06:09<Celestar>also a vehicle counter per month
06:09<fonso>peter1138: if you call OrthIterator::operator++ explicitly like it's not virtual
06:10<Celestar>peter1138: I'll need the data for dest generation anyway, the question is whether to display it or not
06:10<@peter1138>So it could be fast in normal use... Wonder if it's inlinable too...
06:11<@peter1138>Celestar, do you gain anything by seeing it?
06:11<Celestar>peter1138: dunno, you could optimize your stations possibly
06:11<blathijs>Celestar: Shouldn't input and output sum up to throughput?
06:12<Celestar>blathijs: throughput is the stuff that it transferred
06:12<Celestar>blathijs: sorry (=
06:12<Celestar>peter1138: but possibly not, no
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06:13<blathijs>Celestar: Ah, input and output is stuff that entered/left the stations through the doors, not what entered/left over track :-)
06:13<fonso>I'll try now
06:13<Celestar>blathijs: corret (=
06:13<Celestar>correct*
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06:13<dih>Martijn, you can set the start loan, but you cannot define the max value a company may have!
06:14<Martijn>Hmm... ok
06:15<Martijn>But there seem to be servers that do have this feature!
06:15<@Bjarni>not company value
06:15<@Bjarni>at least I haven't seen anything like that
06:16<@Bjarni>and I find it hard to know how they would have implemented it
06:16<@Bjarni>or do you mean max loan?
06:16<Martijn>I dont know if its company value... I think its just the money you currently have
06:16<Martijn>No, not the loan
06:16<Martijn>i've seen some servers that end the game if a player reaches $10M for example
06:17<@Bjarni>ahh
06:17<@Bjarni>like that
06:18<@Bjarni>I guess that's more like a stop criteria than a limit
06:18<Martijn>Its a bit like the game restarting when it reaches 2051
06:19<Martijn>But instead the game restarts when a player has a set amount of money
06:19<@Bjarni>sounds like a script that keeps track of the players and sends a restart command if the value is higher than a certain amount
06:20<dih>Martijn, there are scripts that wrap around the server console
06:20<Martijn>Like autopilot you mean?
06:20<dih>they can check for money or company value
06:20<dih>pause - say a few lines, issue newgame
06:20<dih>yes - like autopilot
06:20<dih>though i think Kurt uses a python script
06:21<Martijn>I dont know who Kurt is :+
06:21<Celestar>peter1138: the "loading iterator" takes up to 2 million cycles :(
06:21<Celestar>peter1138: economy.cpp:1600
06:21<dih>Kurt is the guy who runs the server 'Kurts hard limit' :-P
06:21<Martijn>Ah :P
06:21<dih>that is the server that finishes at 10Mio
06:21<@Bjarni>it wouldn't be feasible to code a limit to company value. It would be like "can't place track here. Company is too big"
06:21<Martijn>Ah, right!
06:21<dih>Bjarni, that would be funny :-D
06:22<Martijn>Does Kurt ever come by here?
06:22<Martijn>It seems like I need the script that Kurt is using, right?
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06:23<@Bjarni>yeah
06:23<@Bjarni>if you want that feature
06:23<Martijn>Lets see if I can find out how to contact this Kurt
06:23<dih>Martijn, Kurt is not oblidged to hand out his script
06:23<@Bjarni>you can still ask him for it though
06:23<@Bjarni>but if he says no then you have to accept that
06:24<dih>the best bet to get in touch with him is to go on his games or visit his website
06:24<Martijn>Yes of course
06:24<dih>also, if you feel like doing some coding
06:24<dih>you can use autopilot :-P
06:24<dih>or rather ap+
06:24<Martijn>Does autopilot/ap+ also include this feature?
06:24<Martijn>Or is that what you mean by "doing some coding"? :P
06:24<@peter1138>Celestar, our new one?
06:25<dih>that is what i mean by 'doing some coding'
06:25<@peter1138>Celestar, that'll be better if you combine packets, right?
06:25<dih>you have a good wrapper to the console, all you need to do is implement that feature
06:25<Martijn>Hmm... you are right
06:25<Martijn>Too bad I've never coded TCL before though
06:27<Celestar>peter1138: MUCH better
06:27<Celestar>peter1138: it'll just be much much much fewer packets
06:27<Celestar>peter1138: I have another idea
06:28<dih>Martijn, it's more simple than odd
06:28<dih>everything is a string
06:28<dih>you should be able to just copy past from examples in the code itself
06:28<Martijn>Heh
06:28<dih>http://svn.openttdcoop.org/tools/autopilot/branches/ap+
06:28<Martijn>You're making it sound attractive :P
06:28<dih>dig in :-P
06:28<@peter1138>Celestar, store packets by nexthop?
06:29<Celestar>peter1138: problem solved ;)
06:29<Celestar>peter1138: I've gotten the time for that loop from O(n) to O(log n)
06:29<Noldo>nice
06:30<Celestar>by adding a dozen lines
06:31<Celestar>well not quite from O(n) to O(log n) but something in that magnitude
06:31<Celestar>peter1138: the thing is, it makes no sense to call UseVehicle over and over and over again, with u and cp->target being the same for a shitload of packets
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06:34<Celestar>peter1138: so I'm caching that result locally in the loop (=
06:34-!-Zahl [~Zahl@g226139008.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
06:36<Celestar>meh how do I print a '%' in fprintf?
06:36<Celestar>\% or %% ?
06:36<Tefad>%%
06:36<Tefad>have you guys not switched to streams yet?
06:37<Celestar>Tefad: unfortunately no :(
06:37<Tefad>or is the whole thing C with classes
06:37<Tefad>btw, i'm relearning C++ as of late
06:37<Tefad>funny how learning java breaks all my C++ knowhow : x
06:38<blathijs>hehe
06:38<Tefad>NO you can't create new objects inside a function argument list that accepts references.
06:38<Tefad>because you have to keep track of the pointer so you can free it later.. silly memory management.
06:38<Celestar>Tefad: currently, it's basically mixed C/C++
06:40<@peter1138>Celestar, ah... handy.
06:42<Celestar>peter1138: that's the resolt
06:42<Celestar>result*
06:42<Celestar>http://www.fvfischer.de/loadcache.diff
06:44<@peter1138>Er, okay :p
06:44<Celestar>peter1138: it slows down the smallish loop
06:44<@peter1138>Hmm?
06:45<@peter1138>You mean it's slower if there a only a few packets?
06:45<Celestar>but it gives a huge boost (about an order of magnitude) if the packet count is noticable (like 1000, sometimes even more)
06:45<Celestar>yeah
06:45<Celestar>but that's hardly noticable
06:45<Celestar>I'm doing an overall test
06:45<@peter1138>Hmm, maybe have both paths, and use the cache only if there are a lot of packets.
06:46<Celestar>considering that
06:46<Celestar>then comparing
06:47<Celestar>averaging over 100000 loops altogether
06:51<Celestar>90000 cycles with everything cached
06:51<@peter1138>Instead of 2 million?
06:51<@peter1138>That's quite a bit faster :D
06:53<Celestar>2 million wasn't really averaged
06:53<Celestar>just over a few loops
06:53<Celestar>trying again uncached
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06:54<@peter1138>Oh
06:54<Celestar>wait about 8 minutes
06:55<Celestar>(because that what about 100k loops will take)
06:55<@peter1138>:o
06:59<fonso>#define INVALID_TILE MapSize()
06:59<fonso>Am I the first one who wants to do something like that?
06:59<Celestar>peter1138: 700000 cycles without the cache
06:59<@peter1138>fonso, yes.
07:00<fonso>any better ideas?
07:00<Celestar>peter1138: but the thing is, the really big loop make the game stutter, because they can take well over a few milliseconds apparently
07:00<@peter1138>Celestar, so it's still no good? :(
07:00<blathijs>fonso: Don't we have an INVALID_TILE defined somewhere?
07:00<@peter1138>fonso, what's wrong with its current value?
07:01<fonso>it's a define
07:01<blathijs>And your proposal isn't?
07:01<fonso>oops
07:01<fonso>I'm not the first one, obviously
07:01<fonso>sorry for the hassle
07:02<@peter1138>INVALID_TILE is not a define :)
07:02<fonso>yes, I see it now
07:02<@peter1138>Oh, had you not seen it at all? heh
07:03<fonso>Somehow I must be blind today
07:12<Wolf01>http://transporttycoon.game-host.org/OTTD_related/patches/dragdrop_roadstops_14012_2.diff Now it works, but it have some problems (like the cost and when extending a station)
07:12<Celestar>peter1138: I gain nothing from not caching
07:12<Celestar>(difference is below background noise)
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07:17<@peter1138>Fair enough
07:17<Celestar>the cache helps much much more than the packet merge :D
07:17<@peter1138>Wolf01, that's a blank file.
07:17<Wolf01>mmh
07:17<@peter1138>Celestar, but both together?
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07:18<Wolf01>ok, now it should work
07:24<Celestar>peter1138: NOSIG
07:24<Celestar>(NO SIGnificant change)
07:24<Celestar>the loop it 10 times slower than without routing
07:24<Celestar>:(
07:25<Celestar>I take about 8500 cycles without routing
07:25<Celestar>and 90000 cycles with routing
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07:27<Celestar>well I used 700000 cycles before, so 90000 is a good thing (=
07:33<Celestar>peter1138: pushed onto server
07:34<Celestar>peter1138: so what to do with improvedload?
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07:38<dih>is there anything that could be done to extend the length of lines one can chat in the game
07:39<dih>64 chars is amazingly short
07:39<Celestar>very yes
07:39-!-SquireJames [SquireJame@72.24.41.5] has joined #openttd
07:39<dih>i know that most strings are limited to the same length
07:39<SquireJames>Howdy boys, long time no see
07:39<Celestar>Rubidium: do you have a sample savegame where improved load fails
07:39<Celestar>hey SquireJames
07:39<dih>but for the chat it has actually only become an annoyance
07:40<SquireJames>Yup, i got bit by the TTD bug again
07:40<Celestar>hehe
07:40<dih>is there no
07:40<SquireJames>Played "Trainz" for a while but, short of paying 3 quid(!) per loco, not much UK content
07:40<dih>thing you cou
07:40<dih>ld do agains
07:40<Celestar>peter1138: when do you think it's time to go public? ;)
07:40<dih>t those short
07:40<dih>lines in the
07:40<dih>in-game cha
07:40<dih>t
07:41<SquireJames>Love the new PBS, been waiting for her for a while, just need programmable signals and i'll be in OTTD perfection
07:41<Celestar>what do you expect programmable signals you do?
07:41<SquireJames>Not demanding them, just seem like a good idea
07:42<SquireJames>Devs agreed when I posted about em long ago, and some form of route priority or filtering would be nice with all these lovely cargo specific platforms
07:45<@Rubidium>Celestar: I'll try to find one
07:45<dih>thank you for any ki
07:45<dih>nd of response
07:45<dih>:-
07:45<dih>P
07:46<Celestar>Rubidium: great
07:47<SquireJames>So, without wishing to pry, whats the newest aim of OTTD?
07:47<SquireJames>PBS and NewIndustries/NewCargos largely implemented these days
07:48<@Rubidium>fixing bugs?
07:48<dih>SquireJames, it's a secre
07:48<dih>t
07:48<planetmaker>noAI :)
07:48<SquireJames>sounds good, general tidying is always welcome
07:48<SquireJames>ah, yes the AI thingy, i heard about that
07:48<planetmaker>you have to play them...
07:48<dih>they are ver
07:48<dih>y fast you know
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07:49<SquireJames>Ah, so some have been completed?
07:49<planetmaker>one could even say too fast for a single person...
07:49<@Rubidium>yes, completed in the sense that OpenTTD is completed
07:50<Celestar>Rubidium: is it planned to merge NoAI in trunk at some point
07:50<Celestar>SquireJames: well, NewGRF_ports is one thing thats around, fixing bugs/problems and another huge feature that peter1138 and I are working on at the moment (=
07:50<@Rubidium>given a few preconditions, then yes
07:50<Celestar>Rubidium: those being? ;)
07:50<@Rubidium>it being finished and such
07:50<SquireJames>working as in "work but always room for improvement" :)
07:51<Celestar>Rubidium: what's it's status? is there a wiki for it or anything?
07:51<SquireJames>well, good to see you gentlemen are as dedicated as ever, makes a nice change given some of the game modding/dev circles i've been in of late
07:51<@Rubidium>AI:Main IIRC
07:52<@Rubidium>but http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/AI:TODO contains the general todo
07:53<@Rubidium>but currently they're getting rid of the scripting engine and replacing it with another one that does more sane things
07:55<Celestar>Rubidium: who's on it currently anyway?
07:56<Tefad>no more squirrel?!
07:56<@Rubidium>currently mostly TB and glx with help from Yexo
07:57<Celestar>shouldn't train support be *much* easier now with YAPP
07:57<Celestar>?
07:57<@Rubidium>Tefad: the squirrel engine is one of the major causes of bugs and especially the nasty type of bugs
07:57<Tefad>\m/'O'\m/ AWESOME
07:57<Tefad>i knew there was a reason i didn't like squirrel : x
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07:58<@Rubidium>Celestar: no; it didn't remove complexity in building railways
07:58<@peter1138>Hm
07:58<Celestar>Rubidium: but it removes the complexity in the signal networks
07:58<@peter1138>Rubidium, but building safe/non-blocking routes might be simpler.
07:58<Celestar>Rubidium: the networks are just as complex as before
07:59<@peter1138>Not a huge benefit though.
07:59<@Rubidium>that is an issue for the AI writers, NOT the API
07:59<Celestar>true
07:59<Celestar>BAH
07:59<Celestar>why is my cluster quota 10GB
07:59*Celestar goes uploading again
07:59<@Rubidium>it actually makes the API more complex as there are now more states a vehicle can be in
07:59<Celestar>*nods*
08:00<@Rubidium>and the main thing we want to avoid is passing trackdirs and such around
08:00<Celestar>peter1138: I'm not yet fully sure how to tackle the improvedloading problem
08:00<blathijs>Rubidium: What scripting engine will they be using instead?
08:00<@Rubidium>blathijs: nail
08:00<@Rubidium>see hg.openttd.org
08:01<SpComb>Yet Another Scripting Language :(
08:01<Celestar>peter1138: something that is again transparent to economy.cpp and done in the routing classes
08:01<@peter1138>NAIL? What happened to whatever it was?
08:01<@Rubidium>SpComb: noo... Not Another Interpreted Language
08:01<blathijs>Hmm, google doesn't seem to know the nail scripting language
08:01<SpComb>heh
08:02<blathijs>NoAI Language?
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08:02<Celestar>heya glx (=
08:02<@Rubidium>peter1138: it'll get dumped, primarily because it has a hook that tells when stuff goes out of scope that... uhm... doesn't always tell when stuff goes out of scope
08:02<+glx>hello
08:02<@peter1138>Squirrel and C++ originally :o
08:02<blathijs>Yipes, their building their own scripting language?
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08:03<@Rubidium>lua, perl and python are all relatively *slow*
08:03<+glx>squirrel is full of strange design decisions
08:04<@Rubidium>factor 4 slower than nail/squirrel on e.g. fibonacci
08:04<Celestar>Rubidium: the netgame we tested, did your company have the improvedload problem there?
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08:04<@Rubidium>can't remember
08:04<Celestar>k
08:04<Celestar>will check
08:04<@Rubidium>it was likely not turned on anyways
08:06<blathijs>If they really want to have their own language, they should try to make it one where safety can be proved an the result can be JIT'ed to native code
08:06<Celestar>JIT?
08:06<blathijs>Just-In-Time compilation
08:06<Celestar>ah
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08:07<Celestar>hm?
08:07-!-publicserver2 is now known as planetmaker
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08:11<@Rubidium>Celestar: http://rbijker.net/openttd/full_load.sav <- I've marked which train came first, second and third and they should load in that order, however... they don't
08:13<Celestar>thanks Rubidium I'll have a look at it right now
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08:13<SpComb>hmm, the nail code seems surprisingly concise
08:14<SpComb>if whoever's writing it managed to understand their needs right, and the code is already nearing completion, then I guess it's ok
08:14<SpComb>but it seems there's no support for libraries, including other modules/files?
08:15<SpComb>and it does seem to have an interpretive VM
08:15<SpComb>I thought for a moment that it compiled into machine code :)
08:15<Celestar>oh yes
08:15<Celestar>we've written a compiler :P
08:16<SpComb>http://www.compuphase.com/pawn/pawn.htm
08:16<@Rubidium>if only it would compile to the native code of all architectures we support
08:16<SpComb>Celestar: are you serious or joking? It's not in the hg repo
08:16<Celestar>I'm joking (=
08:16<SpComb>thought so
08:16<SpComb>oh, right, Pawn also uses an abstract machine
08:17<Celestar>Rubidium: ah so the other trains just sit around because they think they have reserved stuff but can't load it anyway?
08:17<Forked>how did they compile the first compiler!?!? (ok I know they just wrote it in machine code, but that answer sucks)
08:17<SpComb>have the NAIL people looked at e.g. Pawn?
08:17<@Rubidium>Celestar: yup
08:17<SpComb>I've never looked at Squirrel, so I don't really know what it is like
08:18<Noldo>SpComb: last time I checked Pawn it had some 64-bit issues
08:18<Celestar>Rubidium: ok .. the vehicle need to remain in the station because they have full load
08:18<Celestar>Rubidium: just the loading order is poor at best, right
08:19<SpComb>true, it says "pawn is a ... 32-bit extension language with a C-like syntax" on the box
08:19<@Rubidium>the loading order is "right" if improved loading is turned off, because then it's full load the vehicle in any order you like
08:19<SpComb>(hmm... I copy-pasted that as "2-bit extension language")
08:19<@Rubidium>with improved loading it is first-in-first-out
08:19<Celestar>Rubidium: but not with destinations?
08:20<@Rubidium>well, the third train for the SAME destination leaves first, that's not right
08:20<Celestar>*nods*
08:20<SpComb>so what happens with NAIL if someone writes a library of utility code and other people want to use it in their NAIL scripts?
08:20<Celestar>Rubidium: I'll have that issue fixed next.
08:20<@Rubidium>with destinations it should be FIFO per cargo per destination
08:20<Celestar>Rubidium: agreed.
08:20<Celestar>will happen
08:24<@peter1138>destination or nexthop? heh
08:24<@peter1138>pom te pom
08:26<@Rubidium>the destination as shown in the station's cargo list GUI thingy window
08:28<Celestar>peter1138: logically, nexthop is enough afaik
08:33<Celestar>peter1138: because cps get loaded by nexthop as well
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08:41<Celestar>peter1138
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08:44<KillaloT>What happends when a vechicle is too old?
08:44<KillaloT>I don't see any changes
08:44<Celestar>not much
08:45<@Belugas>hellooo
08:45<+glx>except station rating is already low
08:52<@Belugas>KillaloT, iirc, it will break down more often
08:52<@Belugas>thus loosing profit since time for delivery will be longuer
08:52<@Belugas>i think
08:52<@Belugas>not sure
08:52<@Belugas>at all
08:58<Celestar>hmm
08:58<Celestar>peter1138: I still have this 'stuttering' in one of my games
08:58<Celestar>peter1138: thing is. I have it without routing as well
08:58<Celestar>er ...
08:58<Celestar>un momento
08:59<Celestar>I have it in tcsh too
08:59<Celestar>:o
08:59<Celestar>O_o
08:59<Celestar>btb
08:59<Celestar>brb*
09:08<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14013 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2202]: do not allow extending signals by dragging in any direction other than the track direction.
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09:50<Celestar>peter1138: without a more sophisticated passenger generation system, I see no real way to make routes usage symmetric
09:51<hylje>how much more
09:51<Celestar>much
09:51<SpComb>what's the status on passenger destinations now?
09:52<Celestar>cargo destinations
09:52<hylje>like a traveller pool per city which increases when people destined there arrive, increases based on population, decreases over time
09:53<Celestar>way too complicated for now
09:53<Celestar>SpComb: mostly finished
09:53<SpComb>what's the scope of it?
09:53<Celestar>scope?
09:53<SpComb>as in, what does it do
09:54<SpComb>or "how much of the stuff considered to be "passenger destinations" does it implement?"
09:55<Celestar>SpComb: what do you consider passenger destinations
09:56<SpComb>something that picks destinations for passengers, picks a route involving multiple vehicles, and then gets the passenger to said destination
09:56<SpComb>whereby there's a million different possible algorithms for choosing destinations and routes
09:57<Celestar>that it does
09:57<SpComb>is it playable?
09:57<+glx>yes
09:57<SpComb><3
09:58<Gekz><#
09:58<Wolf01><---<<
09:58<@Belugas>"routes usage symmetric"... watzdat?
09:58<Gekz>>-..--<
09:59<hylje>Belugas: about as many people come and go in a route
09:59<Celestar>Belugas: it means that there is an equal amount of pax from A to B as from B to A
09:59<Celestar>Belugas: besides nettest, it's the last big item on the todo
09:59<Celestar>SpComb: get mercurial, and clone http://galadriel.td.mw.tum.de
10:00<SpComb>Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at galadriel.td.mw.tum.de.
10:00<blathijs>Celestar: connection refused?
10:00<SpComb>hmm... how does the passenger generation algorithm work?
10:01<@Belugas>you know, i don't think it is important. A can be far more popular than B and does not mean that whomever goes to B from A must go back to A after whatever needed to be done in B
10:01<SpComb>I recall seeing something about it only generating passengers to destinations that are part of the network?
10:01<@Belugas>ho my god... it sounds luile realism...
10:01<SpComb>does it just pick a destination station at random, or is there some kind of logic re small towns/big towns central station/suburbs?
10:01<hylje>nearness
10:01<Celestar>blathijs: sorry. port 8000
10:01<hylje>i dont think it takes population/station size into account yet
10:02<Celestar>clone http://galadriel.td.mw.tum.de:8000
10:02<hylje>ive had a massive flood of people going from a large terminus to a minor town
10:02<SpComb>'nearness'?
10:02<Celestar>SpComb: nearness (and a size-based prototype on my local copy)
10:02<hylje>the distance to the target station
10:03<SpComb>so it distributes the available passengers to destination stations based on the inverse distance?
10:03<blathijs>Celestar: Why not use hg.openttd.org, btw?
10:03<hylje>blathijs: local development
10:03<Celestar>blathijs: we're developing locally at the moment
10:03<hylje>also LOL, DISTRIBUTED
10:04<Celestar>hylje: well I must admit that it works like a char (=
10:04<Celestar>charm*
10:04<blathijs>Celestar: Yeah, I meant pushing to a celestar repository on hg.openttd.org
10:04<SpComb>what criteria does it use to pick the route?
10:04<Celestar>ah!
10:04<blathijs>Celestar: But I presume that galadriel is the machine you are sitting behind?
10:04<Celestar>blathijs: yeah kind of
10:04<Celestar>my workstation @ work
10:04<Celestar>it's on 24/7 anyways
10:05<Celestar>unless I'm on vacation
10:05<SpComb>writing OpenTTD code at during work hours
10:05<Celestar>me? never
10:05<Celestar>*g*
10:05<blathijs>Or perhaps not sitting behind, but at least compiling on :-)
10:05<Celestar>blathijs: nope, I'm compiling on and sitting behind my laptop (=
10:05<Celestar>better display, better keyboard, better CPU, more RAM, better GPU
10:05<Celestar>questions (=
10:06<Celestar>only thing workstation is good for is visualizing stuff, because it has two TFTs connected
10:06<blathijs>Celestar: In that case, instead of pushing to galadriel, why not push to hg.openttd.org instead?
10:06<Celestar>blathijs: less setup work
10:06<Celestar>(=
10:06<Celestar>pull again guys
10:06<Celestar>SpComb: the repo contains a "TODO" file
10:06<blathijs>Celestar: Lazy ass :-p
10:06<SpComb>push-pull
10:06<Celestar>I'll be back later
10:06<Celestar>cu
10:07<blathijs>Celestar: hf
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10:10<blathijs>peter1138: Is there any particular reason that there are "merge from <peter|celestar>" commits in the hg repos? Can't hg just import individual commits?
10:10<SpComb>those are conflict-merges
10:10<SpComb>or even non-conflict merges
10:11<SpComb>so it imports the history, and then merges the two together
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10:13<blathijs>SpComb: But it seems that (at least in some cases) these merges really just merge a single commit
10:13<blathijs>Why not reuse the original commit message then?
10:13<SpComb>hmm?
10:13<blathijs>I find that one of the advantages of git, if I pull in changes from your repos, I get individual commits with the original commit messages
10:14<SpComb>if you take two tips and merge them together into one tip, then that new tip is differnet from the earlier tip, and thence, it's a different commit/revision
10:14<SpComb>you'll notice that Celestar's repo also contains e.g. the svn commits, followed by a "Merge with trunk"
10:14<SpComb>which indicates that petern merged his local copy with trunk, and then Celestar later pulled in petern's stuff as well
10:15<blathijs>SpComb: Yes, but you could take all the commits in one branch (up until where those branches merge again) and commit then apply those commits, one by one, to the other branch
10:15<SpComb>but I've only read the hg book, and not actually used it all that much, so I don't have very much pratical experience yet
10:16<@peter1138>It's a bit irritating.
10:16<@peter1138>I'm probably doing it wrong ;)
10:18<blathijs>Can hg do rebasing?
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10:18<blathijs>That's something that's particularly cool in git, but totally breaks when other people have branched your branches
10:19<blathijs>that's probably why there are these merge commits, the alternative I described is essentially rebasing
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11:19<FauxFaux>http://faux.uwcs.co.uk/ottd-compvalues-delmonty.png Tee hee.
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly are you trying to tell us?
11:22<FauxFaux>That I need to file a bug report about the line passing below zero, if that was at me.
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>no, i was talking with the other 20 people that said anything during the last hour.
11:23<FauxFaux>I recently re-joined (I assumed there was a netsplit or something), I may have missed something. :)
11:24-!-Zuu [~Zuu@c-363c71d5.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd
11:25<FauxFaux>Which appears to be down from here. Oh, maybe it's sourceforge migration time.
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause>webservices having trouble today
11:38<@Rubidium>lighttpd was for some reason gone
11:39<rortom>are you using the new lighttpd version? or the latest stable?
11:40<@Rubidium>1.4.19
11:40<rortom>we are using lighttpd-1.5.0
11:41<rortom>it has doubled our speed
11:41<rortom>when we switched from 1.4.x
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11:42<rortom>server.network-backend="linux-aio-sendfile" is much faster
11:43<@peter1138>:D
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11:44<@Rubidium>why do python applications require so much memory/leak that badly?
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11:44<@peter1138>'The Linux Game Tome' have changed us to OpenTTD :D
11:45<Zuu>What was it before "Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe"?
11:45<@peter1138>"Open Transport Tycoon"
11:45<Zuu>Cool, they didn't see the 'D' even :)
11:45<rortom>Rubidium: depends o the python application
11:45<rortom>(on
11:46<rortom>*
11:46<Fennec>OpenTTD! The TTD doesn't stand for anything! Just like HD Radio! :P
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11:48<@Bjarni>heh
11:48-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7FEE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
11:49<@Bjarni>Anonymous on Linux Game Town wrote the comment "Racist sexist racist game"
11:49<@Bjarni>idiots are everywhere on the internet
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>i should know... i have one right in front of me :p
11:50<@Bjarni>me too
11:50<@Bjarni>I have an internet right in front of me
11:50<@Bjarni>you wanna trade internets?
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. definitely...
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11:52<@Bjarni>Ok, this is a wonderful game, but I think the team should put more efforts in making a full 100% graphics replacement for at least one scenario (all needed terrain, all kind of tracks, all specific vehicles...), the original game is no more for sale and abandonware is NOT legal. <-- this guy actually have a point
11:52<@Bjarni>I'm not asking for the Ultimate Wonder in OpenTTD visuals - just a working graphics, no matter if unpolished, and a basic soundset to play this game out of the box without infinging law. <-- from the same guy
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, do it ;)
11:53<@Bjarni>I can't draw on computers :(
11:54<Fennec>eh, drawing on paper is more awesome :) but less useful I guess
11:54<@Bjarni>are you sure
11:54<@Bjarni>do you have a scanner?
11:56<Fennec>yeps
11:57*Fennec has to go riiight about now though
11:57<Fennec>my train approacheth its destination
12:06<@Bjarni>there is a hand drawn simutrans graphic pak
12:18<Zuu>Yea, never tried it but saw it some time ago. :)
12:21<@Bjarni>http://hd.simutrans.com/images/hd_scrn02.jpg <-- found a screenshot of it
12:22<@Bjarni>took a while since SimuTrans suffered a server crash and lot a lot of stuff :(
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12:22<@Belugas>whou... lovely :)
12:22<@Belugas>really is
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12:23<@Bjarni>yeah
12:23<@peter1138>Heh
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12:24<Eddi|zuHause>i don't suppose this would be adaptable to openttd ;)
12:24<@Bjarni>it's actually way better than I imagined when I first read about it
12:24<@peter1138>orudge, what happened to the simutrans' forum idea? heh
12:26<@peter1138>They should've used Zernebok ;)
12:26<@orudge>well
12:26<@orudge>the Simutrans forums people didn't reply to my messages after their initial enquiries
12:26<@orudge>and it seems they went with a different route
12:26<@orudge>even though I offered them hosting for all their attachements and posts, etc
12:26<@orudge>but ah well
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12:30<@Belugas>i don't know , Eddi|zuHause, maybe it is, i really do not know
12:30<+michi_cc>anyone here that can test the patch on http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2205 with gcc 2.95?
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>i mean more from a license perspective than from a technical perspective
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12:34<Fennec>that hand-drawn stuff /is/ nice
12:35<@peter1138>2.ancient?
12:36<+glx>SmatZ usually does these compile tests
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12:41<+michi_cc>yeah, any ancient gcc will probably do
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12:45<Ammler>gcc 2.9 is quite old
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>"quite" :p
13:11<Ammler>I made some research for free ssl today, https://www.ammler.ch should work without annoying warnings, maybe you like to make the cert for openttd.org there too? (www.startssl.com)
13:12<Ammler>I found another free resource for opensourse software: https://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/ssl/ssl_opensource.asp
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13:13<@Rubidium>Ammler: startssl doesn't provide the type of ssl certificate we need for free
13:13<Ammler>wildcards?
13:13<@Rubidium>yes, something like that
13:14<Ammler>I just don't know a browser which trust cacert..
13:14<@Rubidium>my firefox does
13:14<Ammler>:-)
13:15<@Rubidium>but that's likely Debian's effort
13:20<blathijs>Don't we just need a cert for secure.openttd.org?
13:21<@Rubidium>technically yes... but
13:21<@Rubidium>https://svn.openttd.org https://openttd.com etc. will then not work
13:22<blathijs>True, but those are also available through secure.openttd.org/svn, right? (at least the first one, the second should just redirect anyway)
13:23<@Rubidium>yes, but the redirect will fail
13:23<blathijs>why?
13:23<@Rubidium>because the SSL certficate doesn't match
13:23<blathijs>Ah, yes
13:24<blathijs>But you can't block the https port depending on the domain, because you only know which domain is requested after the SSL handshake
13:24<@Rubidium>and it won't redirect before the SSL certificate gets accepted and it will *always* complain because the domain doesn't match
13:24<blathijs>Then again, people just shouldn't try to use those urls :-p
13:25<@Rubidium>it's all for "ease of use" of the website
13:25<@Rubidium>and the services
13:25<blathijs>There is some HTTPS extension to support HTTPS vhosting IIRC, which already has some browser support
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13:26<blathijs>Rubidium: How is it handled currently, btw? I don't get a certificate error, though the certificate seems to be issued to secure.openttd.org only
13:26<blathijs>or is there a seperate ip address for secure. ?
13:26<@Rubidium>nope
13:26<@Rubidium>it's some magic certificate
13:26<@Rubidium>it's also for bugs.openttd.org
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13:29<@Rubidium>blathijs: some browser support == latest opera
13:32<Ammler>Rubidium: did you add SSLCertificateChainFile and SSLCACertificateFile to apache conf, I forgot that, first time.
13:33<@Rubidium>don't use apache (for ssl)
13:33<blathijs>Rubidium: Hmm, I thougth there was more than that
13:34<blathijs>Rubidium: Hmm, magic certificates :-)
13:34<@peter1138>Has the reason for the morning brokenness been found?
13:34<@Rubidium>blathijs: one of http://wiki.cacert.org/wiki/VhostTaskForce
13:34<@peter1138>And has the broken whitespace pre-commit hook been fixed?
13:35<blathijs>Rubidium: Hmm, wget does complain about a non-matching hostname
13:35<@Rubidium>peter1138: should be
13:36<blathijs>Rubidium: Ah, there are additional "Subject Alt Names" in the certificate
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13:37<Celestar|GSC>heyo :)
13:37<Ammler>blathijs: seems not to work with my cert, either
13:39<Celestar|GSC>peter1138: do we wanna rewrite the passenger generation system for towns/stations or not?
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>in what way you mean rewrite?
13:41<Celestar|GSC>start from scratch
13:41<Celestar|GSC>otherwise we won't get symmetric loads
13:41<@Rubidium>but that'd mean changing steel mills too
13:41<@Rubidium>which'd break newgrf compatability
13:42<Celestar|GSC>simple example: you have a network with only two stations: A) which has about 10000 inhabitants in its CA, B) which has 50 inhabitats in its CA. you have a single train running from A to B. we'd need a system where the nofpax generated at A is about the same as the nofpax generated at B
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>how about generating passengers based on the amount of delivered passengers (with some random distribution)?
13:42<Celestar|GSC>Rubidium: no I'm talking passengers only
13:42<Celestar|GSC>and mail
13:42<blathijs>Rubidium: According to that page, the TLS extension (SNI) is supported by IE7, Firefox 2, Opera 7.6. Server implementation is lacking, mainly
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13:47<Celestar|GSC>mucht_work: Mucht: you there?
13:48<Celestar|GSC>Rubidium: Eddi|zuHause basically I can imagine all the houses in town adding their passengers to a "passenger pool" thingy
13:48<Mucht>yes Celestar|GSC
13:48<Celestar|GSC>Mucht: do you anything about the subfig package?
13:48<Mucht>no
13:48<Celestar|GSC>pity :(
13:48<Celestar|GSC>np (=
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar|GSC: didn't the old patch do something like this?
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>send back passengers where they came from?
13:49<Celestar|GSC>Eddi|zuHause: I can implement something like that without too much hassle, the question is: do we WANT that?
13:49<Celestar|GSC>I mean in the first iteration
13:52<@peter1138>What's the current problem?
13:53<Celestar|GSC>peter1138:this:
13:53<Celestar|GSC>19:42 < Celestar|GSC> simple example: you have a network with only two stations: A) which has about 10000 inhabitants in its CA, B) which has 50 inhabitats in its CA. you have a single train running from A to B. we'd need a system where the nofpax generated at A is about the same as the nofpax generated at B
13:53<Celestar|GSC>peter1138: so the question is: rewrite the pax generation system for cargodest now, or think about doing it later on?
13:53<@peter1138>Why do we need that?
13:54<@peter1138>Is symmetry needed?
13:54<Celestar|GSC>it's not "MUST", neither "SHOULD", but it's on my "NICE TO HAVE" list
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i think passengers should be (roughly) symmetrical
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, i don't think it should be done in the first iteration
13:56<Celestar|GSC>or rather: have it before the trunk merge or after the trunk merge
13:56<@peter1138>After.
13:56<Celestar|GSC>deal.
13:56<Celestar|GSC>peter1138: should have some something like size-based passengers generation. it's mostly finished, I just need some fine-tuning
13:57<Celestar|GSC>er ... that was a question, sorry :P
14:06<Celestar|GSC>ping
14:08<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: pong
14:08<blathijs>huh?
14:08<@peter1138>It was?
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>huh indeed...
14:08<blathijs>How far can I mis the "C" key :-)
14:09<blathijs>approximately 4cm, it seems
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>"all the way from a to z" :p
14:09<Celestar|GSC>Aye!
14:09<Celestar|GSC>peter1138: so I'll add it once it's finished and tested
14:09<Celestar|GSC>peter1138: we're almost done :D
14:10<Celestar|GSC>peter1138: mainly improvedloading and then nettesting
14:10<@peter1138>You want me to add another minimap view?
14:10<Celestar|GSC>there was talk about coloring the bars by vehicle type, wasn't there?
14:10<Celestar|GSC>dunno if you wanna do it
14:10*Celestar|GSC doesn't really care about that feature, it's just been suggested
14:11<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14014 /trunk/src/widgets/ (dropdown.cpp dropdown_type.h): -Codechange: Add support for automatically sizing drop down lists to the widest list item.
14:13<Celestar|GSC>peter1138: heh. color by cargotype when > 1 types are displayed, color by vehcile type if only one cargotype is selected :P
14:14<Celestar|GSC>(that was a joke)
14:14<Celestar|GSC>.. otoh ...
14:14<Celestar|GSC>BAH why do I get malformed packets from this stupid DNS server
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14:26<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14015 /trunk/src/widgets/ (dropdown.cpp dropdown_type.h): -Codechange: Add facility for a drop down list to always close (if requested) when the mouse button is released.
14:29*Belugas salutes the work of mister Nelson. Quite nice :)
14:30<Celestar|GSC>:D
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14:33<hylje>Celestar|GSC: also fatten bars depending on volume
14:33<hylje>the possibilities!
14:34<Celestar|GSC>gotta go
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15:11<fonso>http://paste.openttd.org/42023 OK or too much inline?
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15:21<@peter1138>fonso, inline is fine for performance critical stuff.
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15:31<fonso>Is it terribly important to have exactly four big explosions when you clear an area? I'd generally reduce them to two (in the corners you actually select).
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>make it so.
15:34-!-DJNekkid [~chatzilla@static128-249.adsl.no] has joined #openttd
15:35<DJNekkid>a train with action0 prop 1A \b*193 should be underneeth one with 1A \b*187 ... shoult it not?
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15:36<DJNekkid> srt, brb
15:36<DJNekkid>sry
15:39<frosch123>DJNekkid: IIRC you specify a vehicle ID in that property and not a key value for sorting. I.e. setting the property to 193 means to sort this vehicle in front of the vehicle with ID 193
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15:55<@peter1138>It's a bloody silly way of sorting but that's the way it is :(
16:04<@Belugas>never let me down
16:04<@Belugas>toum te doum
16:07<DJNekkid>frosch123: but when all vehicles have an 1A
16:08<DJNekkid>in a range from 0 to 240
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16:12<frosch123>does that change anything?
16:13<DJNekkid>yea
16:13<DJNekkid>the order gets scrambled
16:13<DJNekkid>however, not the way i want it to ;)
16:13<frosch123>note, 1a is called an 'action' not a property. i.e. it is executed in the order it is defined
16:14<frosch123>if you refer to a vehicle id that does not exist, it is ignored
16:14<DJNekkid>hmmm
16:14<DJNekkid>hmm ...
16:14<DJNekkid>i think u actually might be on to something there ...
16:14<DJNekkid>just a sec!
16:14<DJNekkid>i think i got an idea
16:15<DJNekkid>because, when i think of it, it seems like the ones with the value < 116 seem to worke as intended
16:20<@Belugas>YOU
16:20<@Belugas>...
16:20<@Belugas>u
16:20<@Belugas>pfffff
16:20<@Belugas>Yo Maaannn
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16:20<DJNekkid>it seems like it actually worked frosch123
16:21<DJNekkid>7 of them got at the bottom, but that is prolly my fault ;)
16:21<DJNekkid>i just had to define them with an action0 06 00
16:22<DJNekkid>at the start of the file
16:22<DJNekkid>at vehicle ID 0 -> 240
16:22<frosch123>hmm, last time Belugas gave me a nice idea what to listen to, but this time...
16:22<DJNekkid>music?
16:23<@Belugas>lol
16:23<@Belugas>can't always please you :D
16:23-!-birdspider [~birdspide@chello062178254008.3.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #openttd
16:24<@Belugas>but if you want to be on the safe side, i'll recommand a high does of Mogwai ;)
16:26<@Belugas>does... DOSE
16:26<frosch123>hehe, 'safe side', actually they appeared quite boring to me :p
16:26<frosch123>sorry, I know you like them a lot
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16:29<@Belugas>well...
16:29<@Belugas>i'd say that they are a bit special, granted
16:29<@Belugas>mostly instrumentals,
16:30<@Belugas>and whenever they "sing" , it's as if they are just mumbling
16:30<@Belugas>but god...
16:30<@Belugas>the energy they put on :)
16:30<@Belugas>but granted, it's not something easily reachable
16:31-!-Yorick [~Yorick@82-171-194-232.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
16:31<@Belugas>i just can't wait to see them live :)
16:31<frosch123>:)
16:31<frosch123>sounds like you need a baby sitter
16:31<Yorick>hm, I can't be away for 8 days or someone commits YAPP :)
16:32<@Belugas>ho no... my wife hates been in crowded places, even more in rock shows ;)
16:32<@Belugas>so i'll be attempting the show alone
16:32<@Belugas>does not bother me :)
16:32<frosch123>:p
16:32<Yorick>and flyspray got updated, trac got added
16:33<@Belugas>last time, i went to see Tea Party, all alone, and i had quite a good time :)
16:33<@Belugas>just watching the band, seeing how they did the songs, etc...
16:33<@Belugas>singing...
16:53-!-blackjak [~blackjak@88-122-178-3.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #openttd
16:53<blackjak>hi
16:53<blackjak>is anybody on?
16:54-!-blackjak [~blackjak@88-122-178-3.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit []
16:55<Yorick>I am
16:55<ln>Yorick: ur too slow
16:55<Yorick>he was too fast
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17:00<@peter1138>Shit, Yorick is back, we'll have to remove YAPP.
17:00*Prof_Frink is watching the openttd codeswarm
17:00<@Bjarni>what is it with Yorick and YAPP?
17:02<@peter1138>Codeswarm?
17:02<Prof_Frink>Crikey, what happened January 2007?
17:02<@Bjarni>it was raining
17:02<Prof_Frink>http://vis.cs.ucdavis.edu/~ogawa/codeswarm/
17:02<@peter1138>0.5 I think.
17:03<fonso>New version of diagonal leveling with iterators: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=95877
17:03<rortom>nice link Prof_Frink, thx for sharing :)
17:04<@peter1138>Hey rortom, any news on a 64bit Linux version?
17:04-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-86-27-108-163.brnt.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
17:04<Brianetta>New Standard game
17:04<rortom>peter1138: yes, its building :D
17:04<@peter1138>:D :D :D :D :D
17:05<rortom>mhm whats the generic platform compiler?
17:06<rortom>i386 for x86
17:06<@Belugas>no no no, he's not happy, it's just the smilies on his jammy
17:06<rortom>but whats for 64?
17:06<@peter1138>x86_64
17:06<rortom>ah, thanks :D
17:06<rortom>should i build optimized versions for x64?
17:06<@peter1138>Assuming you mean architecture, not compiler.
17:07<rortom>yeah, you got me
17:07<@peter1138>Well, when you're building x86_64 binaries you might as well optimize them for it too ;)
17:07<@peter1138>It's not like you lose any backward compatibility.
17:07<rortom>yes
17:08<rortom>we will see ;)
17:08<@peter1138>Let me know when you need me to test it ;)
17:08<rortom>yes
17:08<rortom>should be in about a month or less i hope
17:08<@peter1138>Wow, that's a very slow compiler...
17:09<rortom>hehe
17:09<rortom>the features are not fully ready
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17:09<@Rubidium>Prof_Frink: makefile rewrite and C->C++
17:10<@Belugas>fonso, will try to check ... no promises
17:10<@Belugas>but keep on :)
17:10<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: Thought that was probably it. Big explosion in the swarm.
17:11<fonso>thanks. I couldn't find any more problems, but I'll happily correct things that you might find.
17:13<@Belugas>ok :)
17:13<@Belugas>good night in the mean time
17:13<@peter1138>rortom, sorry, when you said "building" I assumed you actually meant the compiler was running...
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17:13<@peter1138>I don't quite understand the problem in building it :o
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17:21<@Rubidium>Prof_Frink: can you make a movie out of the codeswarm thing?
17:23<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: You can make it output each frame as an image, then moviefy them.
17:24<@Rubidium>I dislike to install half the world just to compile codeswarm
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17:57<Wolf01>'night
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18:09<@Bjarni>Prof_Frink: how did you get codeswarm?
18:09<@Bjarni>this might be a silly question but it keeps on stalling when I try to checkout
18:09<rortom>svn by google code site
18:09<@Bjarni>leaving me with a broken checkout
18:10<@peter1138>Brianetta, pb_hovs_bus and grvts?
18:10<rortom>oh, just got the checkout without problems :/
18:10<Brianetta>bollocks
18:10<@peter1138>You can do that in trunk, but not 0.6.2 :)
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18:10<Brianetta>corrected
18:12<@Bjarni>ok google's svn officially hates me
18:12<@Bjarni>it gives me 20-30 files and then it disconnects
18:12<@Bjarni>so I have to start over
18:12<@peter1138>Also, http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=714132#p714132 < IRS 0.7.1
18:12<@Bjarni>it just did that 8 times in a row
18:14<@Bjarni>and again
18:14*Bjarni gives up
18:16<Brianetta>I can;t get the bugger not to load hovs )-:
18:16<@Bjarni>google is mucking me
18:16<rortom>Bjarni: i can upload the files for you if you want
18:17<@Bjarni>I mean I just tried to ssh to a remote computer to check out and it worked right away
18:17<rortom>thats strange :/
18:20<@Bjarni>now it worked
18:21<@Bjarni>but I didn't change anything
18:21<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: openttd's a fairly boring swarm.
18:21<Prof_Frink>http://sharpley.org.uk/uploads/kde.avi OTOH...
18:22<rortom>oh
18:23<rortom>quite some people working together
18:25<Prof_Frink>rortom: That's the last month of KDE /trunk.
18:25<rortom>impressive to see
18:25<@Bjarni>how do I make a config file of the trunk?
18:26<Brianetta>Aha
18:26<@Bjarni>or any config file for that matter
18:26<+glx>openttd -c config ?
18:26<Brianetta>It wasn't HOVS
18:26<Brianetta>It was a bug on my site
18:26<@Bjarni>glx: I meant a config file for codeswarm ;)
18:26<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: If you just want white dots, then just `ant run` and fill in the svn address and username
18:27<Prof_Frink>Else, edit data/sample.config if you want multicoloured dottery
18:29<@Bjarni>great
18:29<@Bjarni>null pointer exception
18:30<@Bjarni>clearing the cache and trying again seem sot do the trick
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18:39<@Bjarni>interesting
18:39<@Bjarni>everybody shows up and fades away
18:39<@Bjarni>except me
18:40<@Bjarni>looks like I'm the only one to be there from the start and the end and never fades away even once
18:40<Prof_Frink>Reliable Bjarni is reliable.
18:40<Zuu>So you are saying you will stay online and talkning for ever? ;)
18:41<Prof_Frink>Zuu: Not just talking, coding.
18:41<@Bjarni>and not just coding, I will also commit
18:43-!-grumbel [~grumbel@i577BAD3E.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
18:45<Zuu>I hope to commit a snore soon :)
18:45<@Bjarni>a snore?
18:46<Zuu>What you in a commic would write Zzzz
18:47<Zuu>My online dictionary says it's called to snore.
18:49<@Bjarni>ahh
18:49<@Bjarni>those
18:49<@Bjarni>btw it's spelled "Zzz"
18:54<Zuu>Depends, sure three Z are most common but could be even more.
18:55<Prof_Frink>Depends how loud you snore.
18:58<@Bjarni>I don't snore
18:58<@Bjarni>I know because I never heard it
18:58<@Bjarni>and I would be present to hear it if I did ;)
19:01<Zuu>So with that logic, The world is beeping because I hear it right in my head. :)
19:07<@Bjarni>great
19:07-!-bleepy [bleepy@5ad1d1af.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:08<@Bjarni>now spammers wants to sell me sex improving pills (not viagra... something else)
19:08<@Bjarni>it's not like it's new, but this time they are doing it in German
19:09<@Bjarni>why would anybody want to tell me anything in German???
19:09<@Bjarni>(besides this channel, that is)
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19:29<dih>hey ho
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22:28<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14016 /trunk/src/ (blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp gfx.cpp gfx_type.h): -Codechange: Remove some magical numbers
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23:37<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14017 /trunk/src/ (gui.h settings_gui.cpp): -Codechange: DrawArrowButtons now uses Colours enum to specify the colour of the button
23:41<Brianetta>Morning, Belugas
23:48<@Belugas>hey Brianetta
23:49<@Belugas>but...
23:49<@Belugas>it'snmore like good night to me :)
23:49<@Belugas>so...
23:49<@Belugas>i wish you a good day :)
23:49<Brianetta>(:
23:49*Belugas slides in his bed
---Logclosed Fri Aug 08 00:00:45 2008