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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-08

---Logopened Fri Aug 08 00:00:45 2008
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02:02<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14018 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix (r14017): Typos prevented compilation.
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02:21<Brianetta>Early morning coding?
02:22<Brianetta>Fixing Belugas' typos?
02:22<SpComb>you broke trunk :o
02:23*SpComb gives peter1138 the rubber chicken
02:23<Alberth>ah, the lart!
02:23<Brianetta>He didn't break it
02:23<Brianetta>He fixed it
02:24<Alberth>that's why he gets the lart
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02:40<@peter1138>Celestar, pull.
02:40*Brianetta launches some clay pigeons for peter1138
02:41<Vikthor>I see I have come in right time to see what's new with destinations :D
02:41<Vikthor>good morning
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03:48<Wolf01>hello
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04:04<@peter1138>Hi
04:05<@peter1138>I guess Celestar is out :)
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04:41<fonso>New version of diagonal leveling with problems mentionend in tt-forums thread solved: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=95905
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04:53<Wolf01>fonso, just a question, why diagonal leveling and not drag&paint? the last one seem way more useful for me (I like to draw maps)
04:53<fonso>I want to lay diagonal rails
04:53<fonso>and drag&draw requires more precision hand work for that
04:54<fonso>Also we can have both
04:54<Wolf01>I think not, 'cause both use the CTRL key to work, or we need to make a new widget
04:55<fonso>yes, or a second modifier key or a configuration setting. But all of that is no real problem
04:55<fonso>and you can have drag and draw raising and lowering even without that
04:58<fonso>Wolf01: any more discussion about that? Otherwise I'm off for breakfast ...
04:59<Wolf01>no, I agree with you
05:00<blathijs>fonso: The iterator stuff looks cool!
05:00<fonso>I know
05:00<fonso>:)
05:00<fonso>I'll be back in an hour or so
05:00<blathijs>fonso: I would only consider making the iterator itself invalid, instead of having it dereference to an invalid tile
05:01<fonso>Like provide an operator(bool)?
05:01<fonso>I could do that
05:01<fonso>but I'm hungry now, bye
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05:02<@Rubidium>eating and IRC don't go together?
05:02<@Rubidium>must've done something wrong then
05:03<blathijs>Hmm, even leaving your IRC on while you're eating somewhere else would help
05:03<blathijs>Then I could have said stuff to him while he was gone :-)
05:04<sid3windr>maybe his laptop doubles as table
05:05<@Rubidium>even then you can leave irc open
05:06<@Rubidium>last time I closed my IRC was when an exploit in the client was fixed
05:06<@Rubidium>yup, they really need to make it possible to patch running binaries ;)
05:06<sid3windr>yeah but if he's running windows the laptop will go into standby if you close the lid to eat on top ;)
05:07<@Rubidium>then he wouldn't be running kopete
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05:20<@peter1138>I don't think 'drag and paint' has any place outside the scenario editor.
05:21<@peter1138>Rubidium, irssi has an upgrade command...
05:21<sid3windr>yup, and mostly it doesn't crash :]
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05:32<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14019 /trunk/src/yapf/ (follow_track.hpp yapf_costrail.hpp yapf_node_rail.hpp): -Fix [FS#2205]: game crash after order skip while waiting for free path (michi_cc).
05:33<SpComb>peter1138: but /upgrade zeros your /uptime
05:33<@Rubidium>yes, that's a major flaw ;)
05:33*SpComb Irssi uptime: 468d 0h 32m 13s, as a fact relevant to this discussion
05:34<@Rubidium>better shut down the binary so it frees possibly leaked memory too
05:34<@Rubidium>then you must've some ancient kernel
05:35*SpComb hides
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05:35<@Rubidium>2.2.howmany?
05:36<SpComb>ha ha
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05:56<Brianetta>My server's desyncing like 0.4 used to
05:56<Brianetta>ie., all the bloody time
05:56<@peter1138>:(
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05:57<fonso>so, where should I declare LevelMode? command_helper.h perhaps?
05:57<@peter1138>fonso, no, it's related to map levelling, not the command system.
05:57<Brianetta>It must be grvts.grf
05:57<Brianetta>It's the only change
05:58<fonso>It's also used for clearing
05:58<fonso>I could rename it somehow
05:58<@peter1138>Either way it's map operations, not commands, heh
06:01<fonso>I still don't know where to put it. map_func.h?
06:01<blathijs>hey fonso
06:01<fonso>hi
06:01<CIA-5>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14020 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_airport.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: AIAirport::GetAirportType didn't check for valid tile (Yexo)
06:01<blathijs>fonso: I meant having an OrthIterator::end or something like that
06:02<blathijs>fonso: like the STL containers .end()
06:02<fonso>ok ... I'll have a look at how they implement that.
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06:03<blathijs>fonso: Probably more complicated :-) I think for our case it should be enough to have a bool in the iterator that says "finished" or something
06:04<blathijs>fonso: Or perhaps not explicit, but implicit from the current tile index
06:04<fonso>Providing operator(bool) would be very elegant, I think
06:05<blathijs>fonso: Anyway, by overwriting operator== (and/or operator!=, does that one exist?) you can compare with this special end iterator
06:05<fonso>I can, yes
06:05<blathijs>fonso: Yeah, but that's a different approach (more like the java approach with hasNext())
06:05<Yorick>I think automatic path reservation with leaving stations is a bad idea
06:06<Noldo>why?
06:06<fonso>So, I'll do it with operator==
06:07<Yorick>what determines if the path gets reserved or not?
06:07<fonso>Can we decide on where LevelMode should go? I'd say either map_func.h because it's related to map functions or map_type.h because it's no function and related to map operations.
06:07<fonso>or it's own header, but that'd be silly.
06:07<Yorick>terraform_*.h
06:07<Noldo>Yorick: what on earth are you talking about?
06:08<Yorick>Noldo: if train leaves station, its path gets reserved and it sometimes waits on a platform
06:08<fonso>the only terraform_*.h is terraform_gui.h
06:08<@peter1138>You're still not making sense.
06:09<@peter1138>map_type.h is most suitable without making terraform_type.h, I think.
06:09<fonso>Why?
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06:09<@peter1138>I meant Yorick is not making sense :p
06:09<@peter1138>But then I'm not surprised.
06:09<Yorick>I'm not?
06:10<fonso>ok, so it shall be map_type.h
06:10<@Bjarni>Yorick: when did you last make any sense?
06:10<@peter1138>Bjarni, 1952 I think.
06:10<Yorick>I didnt exist back then
06:10<@peter1138>Exactly
06:27<blathijs>fonso: One could wonder in what cases two iterators are equal
06:27<blathijs>fonso: If both of them have current == INVALID_TILE, I think they should be equal
06:27<fonso>well, I can do it that way
06:28<blathijs>fonso: But what if they point to the same tile, but have different parameters?
06:28<fonso>but it won't work for diagonal
06:28<blathijs>What won't?
06:28<fonso>At the moment I compare all parameters
06:28<fonso>There is no current in DiagIterator
06:28<ln>http://tn.nova.cz/zpravy/krimi/dalnicni-most-spadl-na-trat-narazil-do-nej-vlak.html
06:28*blathijs looks closer at DiagIterator
06:29<fonso>Quite frankly, I don't consider the end() thing the best solution, now that I've implemented it
06:29<fonso>It adds overhead
06:29<blathijs>fonso: Then, for DiagIterator, two iterators that both have b_cur == b_max should be considered equal, I think?
06:29<fonso>I can do that, too
06:30<fonso>But it still looks ugly
06:30<blathijs>I do actually agree that the java-style method is prettyer, but this is more consistent with C++ I guess
06:35<fonso>http://paste.openttd.org/42204 Do you really want that?
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06:47<fonso>I take that as yes ...
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06:49<Roujin>hi there
06:49<Alberth>hi Roujin
06:50<Yorick>hi Roujin
06:51<Wolf01>hi Roujin
06:51<Celestar>morning
06:53<Celestar>peter1138: status? ;)
06:55<Wolf01>hi Celestar
06:56<Celestar>hey Wolf01
06:56<blathijs>fonso: Sorry, missed your link
06:57<fonso>Actually usage of the iterators looks better now, so perhaps you're right
06:57-!-welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
06:58<fonso>And are initializers allowed, like in line 56 of the paste?
06:58<blathijs>fonso: Yeah, that looks right
06:59<blathijs>fonso: For reference variables that's even the only way to initialize them
06:59<fonso>I know, but you seem to avoid them where possible, so I thought there may be some coding style rule about them.
07:00<blathijs>Dunno, I don't find them very clear generally, especially when there is also a constructor body
07:00<blathijs>In this case, it's quite elegant
07:00<blathijs>but I haven't been working with the code a lot lately, so can't really say for sure
07:02<blathijs>fonso: Is the overhead you talked about still here?
07:03<fonso>It is reduced to two comparisons and a function call
07:03<blathijs>fonso: I think there is some, you now need two compares on each iteration, instead of one
07:03<Gekz>ls /
07:03<Gekz>...
07:03<Gekz>wrong window
07:03<Gekz>naice.
07:03<fonso>in the previous version I compared all the members on operator==
07:04<fonso>which is even more overhead
07:04<blathijs>Ah, true
07:04<fonso>on the other hand two identical Iterators won't be "==" now
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07:05<fonso>That's somewhat counterintuitive, but I hope no one will use them like that.
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07:05<blathijs>fonso: You could optimize it a bit and still have that behaviour I guess?
07:05<fonso>Which behaviour?
07:06<blathijs>correct comparison
07:07<blathijs>ie, do this: http://paste.openttd.org/42209
07:07<fonso>ok, I'll do it like that
07:08<blathijs>It does introduce an extra conditional, but for the if (it == DiagIterator::end()) case, a smart compiler should even be able to optimize that away
07:08<fonso>na, It won't work
07:08<fonso>end() has all 0 there
07:08<blathijs>yeah, so the will be true
07:09<fonso>ah, ok, I'm blinf
07:09<blathijs>Perhaps if you make end a static member var instead of a static method, it is a bit easier for the compiler
07:09<fonso>blind and legasthenic
07:09<blathijs>:-)
07:09<blathijs>Though that should work out fine when it's inlined
07:09<fonso>Then I get into static initialization fiasko
07:09<blathijs>hm?
07:10<fonso>It will try to initialize end before the class is there.
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07:10<fonso>But perhaps I can circumvent that here ...
07:11<blathijs>Huh? Static member vars should just be possible, right?
07:11<blathijs>but this is a (hypothetical) optimization, so don't bother just yet
07:12<blathijs>I'll see what gcc makes of it with a method
07:12<blathijs>fonso: Do you have the implementation of the constructor for me?
07:13<fonso>http://paste.openttd.org/42211 here you are
07:14<fonso>actually we don't get static initialization fiasko here as there is no other class involved and I can guarantee that the iterator class is initialized first.
07:14<fonso>so, ok end as const static variable
07:21<blathijs>Hmm, I'm getting undefined reference to `__cxa_guard_acquire' errors :-S
07:23<blathijs>Ah, using g++ instead gcc works
07:24<Celestar>note to self: using debug_level 7 on a large map with many vehicles is ... stupid
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07:30<@peter1138>Celestar, I fixed a problem with the new cargo list thing that I thought I'd already handled :o
07:31<@peter1138>Celestar, but alas my home PC is off now :p
07:32<Celestar>peter1138: np
07:32<Celestar>peter1138: I have a sized-based biaser for the PRNG
07:32<Celestar>it's not perfect, but it causes a little insane amount of passengers wishing to go to bus stops
07:34<Celestar>little less insane I mean
07:37<Celestar>WTF?!
07:37<@peter1138>Hmm?
07:37<Celestar>found a gcc bug
07:38<Celestar>int i = 0; for(;;) {}
07:38<Celestar>i is out of scope after the for
07:38<Celestar>int i = 0; SomeStatement; for(;;) {}
07:38<Celestar>i is (correctly) in scope after the for
07:38<fonso>ouch
07:38<Roujin>say, i'm playing a game with the wip cargodests right now - would you mind if I posted screens of it in the forums?
07:39<Roujin>or would it be okay with you?
07:40<fonso>Is the generic name in english for diagonality and orthogonality orientation (as in german) or something else?
07:42<Celestar>I'd say orientation is good enough
07:42<TinoDidriksen>Orientation will work.
07:43<@peter1138>Celestar, too many }s ?
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07:44<TinoDidriksen>There is a flag for enforcing correct for() scope. May change the behavior of that "bug".
07:44<Celestar>peter1138: nope
07:44<blathijs>fonso: Yipes. Did you know that static variables in a function are initialized on the first function call?
07:44<Gekz>Celestar: you pwned gcc
07:45<Celestar>peter1138: other the code wouldn't really compile without access i after the loop, right?
07:45<fonso>yes
07:45<Celestar>er ...
07:45*Celestar curses again
07:45<fonso>blathijs: that wouldn't have been my first static initialization fiasko
07:46<Celestar>peter1138: TIC/TOC is the problem
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07:47<blathijs>Anyway, that does mean that gcc is quite unable to optimize the operator== there
07:47<fonso>I use a member for end now
07:48<fonso>there is no second class involved
07:48<fonso>which is a precondition for sif
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07:49<Wolf01>mmm train crash in czech republic
07:49<Wolf01>and naval crash in Italy
07:49<ln>13:28 < ln> http://tn.nova.cz/zpravy/krimi/dalnicni-most-spadl-na-trat-narazil-do-nej-vlak.html
07:50<Celestar>peter1138: TIC opens a block, TOC closes it
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07:50<Roujin>since nobody is protesting i guess i may do it..
07:50<@peter1138>Celestar, yes...
07:50<Celestar>peter1138: hence the stuff going out of scope
07:51<@peter1138>Celestar, yes...
07:51<Wolf01>http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/italia/news/2008-08-07_107260105.html
07:51<Celestar>peter1138: GetString is slow as hell (=
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07:55<blathijs>fonso: It seems gcc is smart enough to simplify the operator==, but only when it is comparing with local variables
07:56<Celestar>peter1138: factor 10 faster in one function with removing GetString() from a loop
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07:57<fonso>blathijs: Does that really matter?
07:57<blathijs>fonso: If I compare with a static const member that is initialized to some fixed value, it doesn't pick it up. But when I compare with a local variable "end" that uses the same constructor, it does pick it up..
07:57<blathijs>fonso: It saves a compare :-)
07:57<fonso>I'm somewhat reluctant to optimize against g++ bugs
07:58<blathijs>But, with modern speculative executing processors, the branch shouln't have any real impact I guess
07:58<Celestar>are we optimizing code that is called once per user-command? (=
07:58<fonso>no, once per tile when looping over a rectangle
07:58<blathijs>Celestar: Once per iteration in a tile loop (and if we replace all BEGIN/END_TILE_LOOP with these iterators, this might become more relevant
07:58<blathijs>)
07:59*blathijs is off cooking lunch, bbl
07:59<Celestar>blathijs: that sounds different
07:59<Celestar>blathijs: are you telling you found a C++ way to do things faster than the macros? (=
07:59<blathijs>fonso: Just leave it like this for now, we'll see about optimizing it later on I guess
08:00<blathijs>Celestar: No, the C++ way is slower because it doesn't get optimized properly :-p
08:01<fonso>ok, I'll make a new version of the patch ready with also LevelMode divided into LevelMode and Orientation and the (atm useless) option to level or demolish in multiple orientations at once
08:02<Celestar>blathijs: you checked the assembly?
08:02<blathijs>Celestar: yes
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08:02<@peter1138>Celestar, er, yeah, try to avoid GetString if you don't need it ;)
08:02<blathijs>pretty funky stuff that g++ generates. I did learn something: Never use static variables in a performance critical function...
08:04<Celestar>peter1138: well, if it's only once per function it's ok. if it's once per loop iteration it can get bad :P
08:07<fonso>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=95919 here you are
08:07<fonso>ah shit
08:07<fonso>I forgot the { at start of functino
08:07*Celestar looks at the profiling output and blinks
08:07<fonso>wait a minute
08:07<Celestar>er people?
08:07<Celestar>profiling output:
08:07<Celestar>1.36 35.96 0.81 13711130 0.00 0.00 MakeEnglishOriginalTownName(char*, unsigned int, char const*)
08:08<Celestar>why do we call the townname generator 14 million times?
08:08<@peter1138>Lots of towns?
08:08<Celestar>peter1138: 100 ?
08:08<Celestar>it's 128x128 map
08:09<Celestar>and I _loaded_ the game
08:09<@peter1138>Oh... don't know then :p
08:09<@peter1138>Hmm... special :p
08:09<Celestar>1.31 36.74 0.78 123400170 0.00 0.00 ReplaceWords(char const*, char const*, char*)
08:09<Celestar>this is also interesting ..
08:12<@SmatZ>Celestar: does this happen with clean trunk?
08:13<Celestar>SmatZ: I'm trying to determine the reason first
08:13<+glx>Celestar: this profile looks like you just generated a game
08:13<Celestar>glx: I didn't
08:13<Celestar>glx: I loaded a game from command line
08:13<@peter1138>Celestar, pull from http://84.246.155.101:8000/ :D
08:13<Celestar>with the -g switch
08:13<Celestar>peter1138: doing so in a minute sec
08:13<+glx>then it failed to load it
08:13<+glx>and made a random game
08:13<fonso>now it's ready: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=95921
08:14<Celestar>glx: no. I can see the correct game
08:15<Celestar>glx: check GetStringWithArgs, table 14
08:15<+glx>strange because these 2 functions are called only when generating a town
08:15<+glx>hmm maybe when displaying town name too
08:15*glx checks
08:16<Celestar>glx: I guess when calling a player company or something
08:16<Celestar>glx: or maybe when calling a station name
08:16<TinoDidriksen>gprof shows the whole call stack, so should know precisely who called it.
08:16<Celestar>peter1138: RFC: http://www.fvfischer.de/size.diff
08:17<Celestar>TinoDidriksen: yes
08:17<Celestar>TinoDidriksen: haven't scrolled enough (=
08:17<+glx>Celestar: GetSpecialTownNameString() calls the generator
08:18<+glx>GetSpecialPlayerNameString() can do it too
08:18<@SmatZ>so it is called when displaying town name?
08:18<@peter1138>What's the point in ...Iterator::end?
08:19<fonso>it's more elegant to use
08:19<fonso>see in terraform_cmd.cpp
08:19<fonso>and blathijs requested it
08:19<+glx>SmatZ: of course, the town name is just an int32
08:19<@peter1138>Elegant than what?
08:19<fonso>having the iterator dereferred to INVALID_TILE
08:19<Celestar>peter1138: ::end != :last
08:20<@SmatZ>glx: well the function name was looking as it is used for name generating, and Celestar though so too, so I was confused :-P
08:20<@peter1138>::end looks to be some random iterator with no values setup
08:20<fonso>that's the point
08:20<Celestar>TinoDidriksen: know of any decent tool that can make a calltree from a profile?
08:20<fonso>it has INVALID_TILE and b_max == b_cur respectively
08:21<fonso>so it's always an invalid iterator
08:21<Celestar>glx: is it prudent to generate a town name over and over and over?
08:21<@peter1138>I don't think that's particularly elegant. It's confusing.
08:21<+glx>Celestar: doesn't matter, each int32 always generate the same townname
08:21<blathijs>Celestar: Would be cool if the iterators are compatible with STL enough to do std::vector<TileIndex>(DiagIterator(a, b), DiagIterator::end) to build a list of those tiles
08:22<Celestar>blathijs: yeah :D
08:22<fonso>peter1138: so how would you like it?
08:22<fonso>and please discuss with blathijs
08:23<blathijs>THe alternative would be to have DiagIterator(a,b).end() or something, ie an end that is specific to the range you are iterating
08:23<Celestar>peter1138: updated windows? \o/
08:23<blathijs>I think
08:23<fonso>I can do that
08:23<fonso>but I want you to agree first
08:23<blathijs>But I think that would become less efficient
08:23<TinoDidriksen>Celestar, using gprof? 'cause then it should be part of standard output.
08:23*blathijs continues cooking in the meanwhile
08:26<fonso>Actually I can't see what is so confusing about an all-zeroed iterator as end marker.
08:27<TinoDidriksen>Celestar, or gprof --graph rather...seems I had that as default globally.
08:28<Celestar>TinoDidriksen: I see (=
08:28<Celestar>thanks
08:30<Roujin>because I got no answer before, I ask once again - do you have something against me posting screenshots from a game with the WIP cargodests in the tt-forums?
08:30<Celestar>peter1138: how often is the cargo list built?
08:30<Celestar>peter1138: in the SVW?
08:31<@peter1138>Whenever it changes, and if the item is expanded in the view.
08:31<@peter1138>Er, only if, even.
08:32<Celestar>cool
08:33<@peter1138>If you change the sort order it doesn't need to rebuild it either.
08:33<Celestar>but anytime the amount changes the cache in invalidet
08:33<Celestar>but ok
08:33<@peter1138>Yeah
08:33<Celestar>invalidated*
08:34<@peter1138>Previously any time the amount was changed it refreshed the window... which then redid it.
08:34<@peter1138>It's not much different, except it is aware of only refreshing the cargo type that's changed.
08:41<Celestar>yeah
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08:52<SquireJames5>helloo
08:53<Celestar>peter1138: any bright idea about FIFO loading?
08:53<fonso>so, peter1138, you're ultimately against *Iterator::end or only against the current implementation?
08:54<hylje>i'm in the belief the C++ implementation of iteration is braindead
08:55<fonso>I can do it any other way you like, but I'd like you to agree on something
08:55<Gekz>there are never enough tiny teddies
08:56<Gekz>:/
08:57<Celestar>heh how can I convert a "dot" file into a graph?
08:58<Alberth>Celestar: dot -Tpng myfile.dot > myfile.png
08:59<Celestar>Alberth: tried that :P
08:59<Alberth>You can also convert to jpg or ps
08:59<Celestar>there result is not what I imagined :P
08:59<Celestar>I get a DNA profile or something (=
09:00<Celestar>Alberth: http://www.fvfischer.de/testout.png <= result
09:01<TinoDidriksen>Looks like a scale problem.
09:01<Alberth>Convert to postscript
09:01*Celestar tries ps or svg
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09:02<Celestar>peter1138: so .. when do we go public on the forums? (=
09:03<Alberth>Roujin is working on that problem :P
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09:04<Celestar>Alberth: on what problem?
09:04<Alberth>going public, at least judging by the question he asked here
09:05<Roujin>oh, hey if you don't like it i go and delete it again
09:05<Celestar>Roujin: heh no problem (=
09:05<Celestar>I just hate writing stuff :P
09:05<fonso>bah. I'll come back some other day.
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09:06<@Belugas>hello
09:06<Celestar>Roujin: can I see it?
09:06<@Belugas>ooops..
09:06<@Belugas> a typo
09:06<Alberth>Belugas: hello
09:07<@Belugas>beautyfying after compile ad before commit should be avoided like plague
09:07<@Belugas>hello Alberth
09:07<@Belugas>thanks peter1138
09:07<Roujin>well, it's kind of a normal screenshot thread - only that i'm using your wip cargodest version for my game - http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=38860
09:09<Roujin>I try to make some screens showing informative stuff like the connections map view..
09:10<Celestar>Alberth: ok .. 3.9MB worth of svg :P
09:11<Alberth>Usual problem is too many details :)
09:14<Celestar>yeah.
09:14<Celestar>WAAAY to many apparently
09:14<Celestar>will check later
09:14<Celestar>peter1138: trying to solve the improvedload problem
09:14<Alberth>What are you viewing?
09:15<blathijs>peter1138: What alternative do you suggest for the iterator thing? Java style hasNext() (or some other way to ask the iterator if it's still valid), or more than one end iterator?
09:15<blathijs>peter1138: The latter could probably be achieved by calculating what the one-past-the-end tile would be I guess
09:15<Celestar>Alberth: openttd call tree (=
09:17<Alberth>If you're running a Windows machine, this may be useful: http://www.win.tue.nl/~lvoinea/VCN.html#CVSscan
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09:18<rortom>oh, nice tools, thanks :)
09:18<rortom>is there something qual for svn?
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09:19<blathijs>qual?
09:19<rortom>*equal
09:19<Celestar>peter1138: not easy
09:21<Roujin>Celestar and others: quick question about the cargodest patch before i write wrong information in my thread:
09:21<Roujin>what exactly does influence the size of the dots in the map view?
09:22<@peter1138>It's related to the number of passengers waiting at the moment.
09:22<Roujin>thanks
09:22<@peter1138>Obviously that's not much use for cargo-only stations.
09:22<@peter1138>It is in fact exactly the same as that other paxdest patch ;)
09:23<Celestar>peter1138: we're going to change that are we not? (=
09:23<@peter1138>Hence "at the moment"
09:23<Roujin>I see
09:23<Roujin>I will include that information
09:23<@peter1138>Probably just add up all the cargo and use that total.
09:24<@peter1138>Or rather, all the cargo that's selected.
09:26<Celestar>peter1138: the second possibly, dunno how difficult it is
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09:26<@peter1138>Easy peasy.
09:27<Celestar>that sounds great (=
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09:29<@peter1138>Adds yet another loop though, heh...
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09:30<Celestar>*shrug*s
09:30<Celestar>if it's too slow, have the people close the minimap :P
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09:31<Celestar>oh man this improvedload is giving me headaches
09:31*Celestar starts over
09:31<Celestar>v->cur_order_index always points to some order in v->orders right?
09:33<@Rubidium>if num_orders > 0
09:34*blathijs pokes peter1138 again
09:34<@Rubidium>and maye when orders get removed it gets invalid
09:37<Celestar>Rubidium: I see
09:37<Celestar>Rubidium: you've giving me a headache with your improvedloading (=
09:38*Rubidium prescribes aspirin
09:40<Celestar>hehe
09:42*Celestar blinks
09:44<Roujin>uhm.. there seems to be something wrong with the transfer/income scrolling text
09:44<Roujin>look at this http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=95930
09:44<Roujin>there's no way I've just earned 100.000 DM on this screenshot
09:45<Celestar>it WORKS
09:45<Celestar>Rubidium: could you test my FIFO fix?
09:45<Roujin>I rather get the feeling that the amount that's displayed as "Transfer" is awarded to my account the second the train arrives at the station..
09:47<Celestar>Roujin: er .. there's some shit I did apparently with the display
09:47<Celestar>Roujin: will fix soon
09:48<Wolf01>hailstorm.. the front glass of my car is broken :(
09:48<Wolf01>6cm ice balls :(
09:48<Celestar>sucks Wolf01 :(
09:50<Gekz>Wolf01: omg
09:50<Gekz>Wolf01: I doubt thats the only damage
09:50<Gekz>I'd say your car just got written off, aesthetically
09:50<Gekz>lol
09:50<@Rubidium>Celestar: fix where? in the hg? I'll test it later today
09:51<Wolf01>my mother didn't stay under the storm to look at the damages, we'll look when she'll return home
09:53*blathijs is away for a while
09:53<Celestar>Rubidium: I'll test it for a minute, then I'll commit it to hg (in half an hour or so)
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10:02<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14022 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r13957) [YAPP]: Removing station tiles could produce stale reservations, too. (michi_cc)
10:02<Celestar>people you're going to MURDER me :P
10:03<+glx>why?
10:03*SmatZ murders Celestar
10:04<Celestar>std::vector<std::map<StationID, int> > cargo_left;
10:04<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14021 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r13957) [YAPP]: Overbuilding station tiles with non-track tiles could produce stale reservations. (michi_cc)
10:05<Celestar>glx: at least the C-guys are going to murder me for that
10:05<@Belugas>would not make it easier if access is granted to michi_cc ? hehe
10:06<@SmatZ>I need commits to have good commit statistics :-P
10:07<@Belugas>lol
10:07<+glx>Celestar: it's just a nice c++ construct ;)
10:10<Celestar>glx: I like it
10:10<@Belugas>SmatZ, just change some magic numbers to enums :D LOTS to do ;)
10:10<Celestar>glx: I just notice, whenever I use this std containers, I hardly ever produce segfaults, buffer overflows and other unwanted effects
10:10<@Belugas>(joke)
10:11<Celestar>yEAH! let's make it a numerical-free code
10:11<+glx>Celestar: then you don't play with iterators ;)
10:11<Celestar>I've seen things like for (int i == NC_ZERO; i < sizeofsomething, i++) in real life
10:11<Celestar>glx: well, what do you mean by "play"
10:12<@SmatZ>:)
10:12<+glx>delete objects while using an iterator
10:13<Celestar>glx: er .. for (someit it = container.begin; it != container.end; ++it) { do_some_stuff; delete *it; }
10:13<Celestar>you mean this?
10:14<+glx>things like that yes, but if not done correctly the iterator becomes invalid
10:14<Celestar>glx: it basically always becomes invalid (=
10:14<Celestar>glx: at least that's my rule of thumb
10:14<@SmatZ>doesn't vector / everything call destructor, when you .remove() it?
10:14<Celestar>just use a next pointer or something
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10:15<Celestar>SmatZ: it does, but the iterator is crapped as soon as you remove it's contents
10:15<Celestar>s/it's/its
10:15<@SmatZ>true
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10:15<Celestar>the only place where I do it is when I break; the loop right after the removal
10:16<@SmatZ>but they you get segfault on vector destructor
10:16<Celestar>SmatZ: deleting stuff from a vector is pretty evil anyway
10:17<@SmatZ>or simply vector.remove(*it++) ?
10:17<@SmatZ>or so
10:17*SmatZ mumbles something about STL and evilish things...
10:17<Celestar>SmatZ: normally, doing vector.erase does the right thing
10:18<Celestar>and sets the iterator to the right thing (i.e. the next element, or .end())
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10:18<@SmatZ>aha
10:18<@SmatZ>interesting
10:18<Celestar>all the standard containers do this afaik
10:19<+glx>vector.erase(it) does that IIRC, but vector.erase(value) doesn't
10:19<Celestar>glx: afaik you are correct
10:20<Celestar>glx: then again, how should vector.erase(value) have an idea that you have some iterator pointing to it?
10:20<Celestar>peter1138: you can pull the fifo fix
10:20<@SmatZ>Celestar: maybe vector::erase(iterator &it) ?
10:20<@SmatZ>but yeah
10:20<@SmatZ>it's sick
10:21<+glx>it can't (we had some fun with noai for that)
10:21<Celestar>SmatZ: vector.erase(it) is fine
10:21<Celestar>SmatZ: just all the OTHER iterators (besides it) will be crapped
10:21<Celestar>for vector that is
10:21<@SmatZ>Celestar: I fully agree
10:21<Celestar>I think for all other containers, just other iterators pointing the same element will be crapped
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10:22<Celestar>oh man. yapp is awesome
10:22<Celestar>it's exactly the signalling system that TTO should have had
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10:22<@SmatZ>hehe
10:22<Celestar>(=
10:23<avdg>lol, love yapp
10:23<@SmatZ>Celestar found YAPP, and that's the end of cargopacket development ...
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10:24<Celestar>SmatZ: er .. I found YAPP before peter1138 and I started on cargodest
10:24<Celestar>ok who's in for 90 minutes of cargodest playtest :P
10:24<+glx>I can :)
10:25<Celestar>ok first I needa compile a new server
10:25<+glx>lol
10:25<Celestar>glx: should we use newgrfs or not? (=
10:26<+glx>no newgrf is better
10:26<Celestar>glx: k
10:26<Celestar>Roujin: where is that tt forum entry about cargopackets of yours?
10:26<Celestar>glx: *sigh* maybe it will be 60 minuets only. we'll see
10:26<Celestar>glx: but the server will be running anyway
10:27<+glx>hmm segfault
10:28<Celestar>glx: er what?
10:28<Celestar>glx: in some std::container anyway (=
10:28<Celestar>glx: can you reproduce?
10:28<+glx>I just started openttd
10:29*glx starts msvc
10:30<Celestar>er
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10:30<+glx>seems to be in fifo :)
10:30<Celestar>glx: oh shit
10:30<Celestar>glx: the playtest will have to wait ^^
10:30<+glx>(if I understand the drmingw stack trace)
10:31<Celestar>meh
10:31<Celestar>it's no biggie
10:32<+glx>>,...StationID next_station = GetVehicleOrder(v, v->cur_order_index)->GetNextUnloadingOrder()->GetDestination();
10:32<Roujin>Celestar: here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=38860
10:32<+glx>when doing that, the segfault happens in GetDestination()
10:32<Celestar>yeah
10:33<Celestar>I have to rebuild without inlines
10:33<Celestar>glx: you guys will need to playtest over the weekend
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10:33<Roujin>using the 5th-newest entry from your repository atm
10:33<Celestar>Roujin: thanks
10:33<Roujin>24h ago from "vici"
10:34<Roujin>will it break my savegame or anything if I upgrade?
10:34<Celestar>it shouldn't
10:36<Celestar>make backups nevertheless
10:36<Roujin>lol, i just got a "Cost: .." instead of "Income:.." on a bus dropping off passengers at a stop
10:36<+glx>Cost: 0 ?
10:37<Roujin>uhm.. dunno.. i think it was not 0, but it was away so fast...
10:37<Roujin>i'll see if it happens again
10:38<+glx>btw you can lose money (same as with transfer)
10:38-!-mikl [~mikl@gw.imtnet.dk] has quit [Quit: mikl]
10:38<Celestar>Roujin: yeah I know :(
10:39<Gekz>How can you lose money
10:39<Gekz>lolp
10:39<Roujin>there, it happened
10:40<Roujin>Cost: DM 336 :D
10:40<Roujin>didn't know it can happen
10:40<Celestar>Roujin: it can with transfers
10:41<Celestar>guys I gotta go
10:41<+glx>Celestar: GetNextUnloadOrder() returns NULL
10:41<Celestar>glx: already fixed, commited and pushed (=
10:41<Celestar>I'll be offline for 48 hours, so you need to drop me a mail to celestar@openttd.org (=
10:41<Celestar>have a nice weekend
10:43<@Belugas>enjoy
10:43<+glx>have fun
10:43<@Belugas>and don't danse to much :) it will get you away from coding ^_^
10:46<@peter1138>Bye
10:47<Roujin>have fun Celestar :)
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11:00<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14023 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_costrail.hpp: -Fix (r13944) [YAPP]: If YAPF encountered a dead-end that had a signal on it, is could be falsely seen as a valid destination. (michi_cc)
11:02<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14024 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_costrail.hpp: -Fix (r14019) [YAPP]: YAPF also skips tunnels and bridges. Honor that in penalty calculations. (michi_cc)
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11:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14025 /branches/noai/ (49 files in 11 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r13968:14024
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11:49<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14026 /trunk/src/ (network/core/host.cpp player_gui.cpp): -Cleanup (r13995, r14004): trailing whitespaces
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11:52<Eddi|zuHause><Celestar> Alberth: http://www.fvfischer.de/testout.png <= result <- that's not the usual result i get from dot files :p
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11:54<Eddi|zuHause>try to remove any lines like: size="10,10!"
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12:14<ben_goodger>good lord, other people use graphviz?
12:16<TinoDidriksen>Of course...it's a great tool.
12:17<ben_goodger>well, I know that, but I've never heard of anyone else using it besides for programmatically generated graphs of debian package dependencies
12:17<ben_goodger>admittedly, this graph of celestar's is probably programmatically generated also, but it's too small to see..
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>my university uses a graphviz plugin for trac to draw ticket dependencies
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>and i use graphviz for my abstraction-visualization in my diploma thesis
12:21<ben_goodger>excellent
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12:28<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/swt-beamer-vorlage.pdf <- look at slide 20
12:39<ben_goodger>quite
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12:53<Dred_furst>I just had an idea to extend yapp/yapf to make rail networks run slightly smoother
12:54<Dred_furst>get trains to deaccellerate/accellerate in accordance to traffic in front of them
12:54<Yorick>yellow signal state
12:54<Dred_furst>Sort of yes
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>that's exactly the solution...
12:55<Dred_furst>my idea was that if you have a really busy junction you should slow the train down a bit so it hits the junction in a gap rather than having to stop
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12:56<Dred_furst>if you do this over a variable number of squares things could run really smoothly
12:56<Dred_furst>like signal 4 squares ahead is red, cut speed to 75%
12:57<Dred_furst>4 *blocks ahead
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13:03<ben_goodger>excellent idea.
13:03<Yorick>why did it get removed from openttd?
13:03<Dred_furst>that way when your train hits a busy junction it will slow down and try and hit the junction in a gap
13:03<Dred_furst>rather than hitting the signal just before and going STOOOOOOOP
13:04<Dred_furst>which means everything keeps flowing
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13:10<@peter1138>What got removed?
13:10<Yorick>yellow signal state?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>when do you think it was IN openttd?
13:10<@peter1138>Oh, well to be removed it would have had to have been added.
13:11<ben_goodger>hence the source of confusion
13:14<@peter1138>TortoiseHg has a nice changeset view showing branches and merges. Is there anything like that for non-Windows?
13:15<@peter1138>Or will hg view work fine :D
13:15<@peter1138>Ah ha, it does!
13:15<Yorick>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=35496&hilit=yellow+signal+state
13:15<@peter1138>Yes, it was a patch.
13:15<@Rubidium>yup, we removed passenger destinations also 4 times now?
13:16<Roujin>that's not _in_ openttd...
13:16<Yorick>mm
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13:17<Yorick>I remember something like that with the openttdcoop 0.4.5-game
13:18<Dred_furst>someone get yellow signal state working with YAPF and YAPP effectively
13:18<@Belugas>Yorick, you're just so wrong...
13:18<Yorick>am I ever not?
13:18<@Rubidium>oh... so paxdest was really in OpenTTD because there was a paxdest openttdcoop game (attempt)
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13:25<@peter1138>Bah, hg view doesn't automatically update :(
13:26<Progman>Celestar, peter1138: is there some cool updates of your paxdest I can pull? got h:a9505f atm
13:27*Yorick loves peter1138
13:27*Yorick loves celestar too, don't worry :)
13:27<@peter1138>a9505f? How ancient!
13:28<@peter1138>Yeah, pull from http://217.151.109.167:8000/
13:28<Roujin>I got eb53bb4
13:28<Progman>"Mon Aug 04"
13:28<Progman>just 4 days
13:28<Progman>thank you
13:31*peter1138 ponders setting up a server
13:31<@peter1138>hg: unknown command 'branch'
13:32<@peter1138>Oh bollocks :o
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13:34<@peter1138>I shall comment that line out, as we've not used branches anyway...
13:35<Yorick>why not using the official openttd svn?
13:36<@Belugas>because it's not required
13:37<@peter1138>Indeed. Anyone can do this.
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13:39<fonso>so I made two alternative versions of the diagonal leveling patch, one reacting on peter1138's critique and one on hylje's: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=38148&p=716176#p716176
13:47<@peter1138>Whoops, misspelled cargo... never mind.
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13:47<@peter1138>fonso, will look in moment.
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13:48<fonso>ok, thanks
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=38871&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a <- re: yellow signals
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13:52<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, coded it yet?
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>then i would have posted in development, not suggestions :p
13:54<@Belugas>hylje thinks it's brain dead ... as in... cant' understand it? don't want to understand it, way too easy for the task?
13:54<@Belugas>hehe
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>context?
13:55<fonso>whatever, he didn't elaborate
13:55<@Belugas>you should not have reacted on such a comment ;)
13:55<@Belugas>if you do , you would keep on working until the end of times ;)
13:55<fonso>well, I also like the java style iterators more
13:56<fonso>compare the code and you'll see why
13:56<@Belugas>to be hmonest, i've got some other code to check, right now...
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13:56<@Belugas>and not in C/C++
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13:57<fonso>ok, I'm patient. At least there is a new version of the patch to look at when you got time.
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14:00<@peter1138>Nah, michi_cc was patient.
14:01<fonso>OK, I'm a little impatient at times
14:01-!-fonso is now known as fonsinchen
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>i have never seen michi_cc say anything here except "new win64 binary uploaded"
14:02*fonsinchen wraps herself in silence
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14:02<Eddi|zuHause>/ignore *inchen
14:03<XeryusTC>where can the new cargo destinations be found?
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>the new new cargo destinations?
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>hg clone http://galadriel.td.mw.tum.de:8000
14:07<Roujin>questions at cargodest guys: what do blue lines in the cargo map mean?
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>lines are coloured by cargo type
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>blue==passengers afaik
14:08<XeryusTC>Eddi|zuHause: thank you :)
14:10<Roujin>aaah i understand
14:10<Roujin>before, I used trains with passenger and mail carriages
14:10<Roujin>then the lines were white
14:11<Roujin>now I changed part of the network with EMUs that carry only passengers, and the lines there became blue..
14:11<Roujin>makes sense
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should bug peter1138 to colour the lines by the majority of cargo transported ;)
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14:17<@peter1138>Bah, now continuing the game that was running on Celestar's server :D
14:18<@peter1138>23859 petern 15 0 40616 14m 3128 R 79.5 2.9 0:52.00 openttd
14:18<@peter1138>80% cpu :o
14:18<@peter1138>Hah, desynced
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14:35<ln>anyone from georgia?
14:39<frosch123>goergia? shouldn't they be sleeping?
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14:41<fonsinchen>depends on which georgia he means
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14:43<Eddi|zuHause>the one south of russia i assume...
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>the one that is in the news
14:43<@Belugas>news?
14:44<@Belugas>ho... i see...
14:44<frosch123>okay I put it way too far east, there it is currently about 21:45
14:44<@Belugas>barbarism strikes again the world :(
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>well... while the world is distracted with china and the olympics... nobody will notice ;)
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14:47<frosch123>22:45 actually
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14:50<Wolf01>is there an hotkey for the convert signals tool on the signals gui?
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>i wondered that myself... it is really needed
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>it is as significant as the remove button (R)
14:52<Progman>what about ctrl-click on the signal itself?
14:53<Wolf01>ctrl+click already convert from semaphores to light signals
14:53<Wolf01>and vice versa
14:53<Yorick>just click on the signal itself?
14:54<Yorick>I think that is the most intuitive
14:54<Wolf01>I need to toggle quickly the tool, like R for the remove button, as Eddi says
14:54<Yorick>argh, the paxdest doesn't build on windows
14:54<Yorick>it needs boost
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>install boost.
14:55<Yorick>I dislike installing and compiling half of the world just to use a paxdest
14:55<+glx>you just need some headers
14:55<Progman>just ctrl-click on a signal and it switches between presignals and yapp-signals
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>you only need the boost graph library
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>Progman: not when you set to cycle only between one type
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>Progman: the convert button is there. it is good where it is. the behaviour is good how it is. it just needs a hotkey.
14:57<Wolf01>I think that "C" would be the best one, but we need to steal the event from the rail toolbar
14:58<Progman>but there are 6 different types, what kind of hotkey do you want?
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>Progman: for the CONVERT button.
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>there is only one such button
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>not a hotkey for signal type
14:59<Yorick>what about having that convert button always enabled, and if it's the correct signal type you're clicking, perform the standard operations, else convert
14:59<Wolf01>for signals we might use shift + QWERTY/ASDFGH
15:00<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: Building a different type of signal over an existing signal should convert it to that type
15:00<Wolf01>good idea Yorick
15:00<Progman>how often do you need the convert button o_O
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>Progman: often
15:00<Wolf01>always
15:00<Yorick>quite often
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>often enough to get annoyed by it not having a hotkey
15:01<Yorick>^^
15:01<Yorick>also I don't like the fact it remembers you've selected a pre- or combo-signal
15:02<Yorick>those are often one-time use
15:02<Progman>hmm, I dont understand this, maybe because I dont play with semaphores ;)
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15:03<Wolf01>that's not question about semaphores or not... we need it to replace signals quickly without cycling
15:03-!-PublicServer is now known as XeryusTC
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15:08<Wolf01>what's the best penalty to avoid 90° turns with yapf?
15:08<Wolf01>original is 600
15:08<Wolf01>I'll set it to 10000
15:09<@peter1138>When is euromillions drawn? heh
15:09*peter1138 needs to win it :o
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15:10<@Belugas>[15:03] <Wolf01> that's not question about semaphores or not... we need it to replace signals quickly without cycling <--- hehehe "we" :D I don't, personnaly, YOU do ;)
15:11<@peter1138>Indeed.
15:13<Yorick>YOU don't play...
15:14<@Belugas>I DO!
15:14<Yorick>you do?
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15:14<Yorick>rly?
15:15<Yorick>"copying 7.089 items...5 minutes remaining"
15:16*Yorick is currently installing half the world to get paxdest
15:16<@Belugas>poor soul
15:17*peter1138 ponders trying to solve his toolbar issue, or just giving up.
15:18<@Belugas>put it on the shelves for a little while, you might find a solution later :)
15:19<Yorick>toolbar?
15:19<@peter1138>Belugas, but I need it for my other WIP...
15:19<Yorick>toolbars don't give issues, toolbars are perfect!
15:21<@Belugas>will you please mind your businessm Yorick?
15:23<Yorick>k
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15:24<bastl>hi
15:24<bastl>great game btw
15:24<Yorick>hi, what's your question?
15:24<bastl>i installed dedicated server on debian
15:24<bastl>but now i cant find the openttd.cfg
15:24<Yorick>create one at the location of the server executable
15:25<Yorick>otherwise it creates one at the documents
15:25<Yorick>/user/openttd, I think
15:25<@Belugas>bastl, have you run the game at least once?
15:26<bastl>i run the dedicated server
15:26<Yorick>have you ran it at least once?
15:27<bastl>yes
15:27<bastl>but its still running atm
15:27<Yorick>try doing saveconfig in the console
15:29<Yorick>grep: invalid option -- m
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15:31<bastl>if i create a new cfg do i need to set all values or just the ones i want to change? and which value do i need to change to start the server with random 1024x1024 maps?
15:32<+glx>bastl: check in ~/.openttd
15:32<@peter1138>map_x / map_y to change the map size.
15:33<+glx>values are 2^map_(x|y)
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15:38<@Belugas>hello
15:38<@Belugas>i lost my mouse... needed to reboot
15:38<@Belugas>booo
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15:41<XeryusTC>hmm
15:41<XeryusTC>the sign list has a bug :o
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15:42<XeryusTC>or well, it does in r14013, dunno if it is fixed in the meanwhile
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15:56<Progman>Celestar, peter1138: a route is somehow dropped all the time :(
15:57<Progman>do you need a savegame?
15:57-!-KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-208-102.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:59<Progman>found this bug after a train goes to a depot for maintance
16:01<Wolf01>'night
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16:27<Progman>Celestar, peter1138: autoreplace totally failes with paxdest, doesn't it?
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>autoreplace totally fails.
16:27<hylje>a huge bjarnism
16:29<Progman>and you must reload the network by save&load all the time :(
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16:32<@Bjarni>paxdest?
16:32<Progman>patch they working on
16:33<@Bjarni>ahh
16:33<@Bjarni>didn't notice any autoreplace problems when I tested it
16:33<@Bjarni>but I guess I never tried to replace anything with cargo in it
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the fan just got silent, this can't be good...
16:37<@Bjarni>CPU fan?
16:37<@Bjarni>PSY fan?
16:37<@Bjarni>*PSU
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>i was thinking the north bridge fan
16:38<@Bjarni>north bridge?
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>i can't see anything...
16:40<@Bjarni>you lost power?
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>all 4 fans appear to be running...
16:43<@Bjarni>4 fans?
16:43<@Bjarni>isn't that noisy?
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>PSU, CPU, GPU, north bridge
16:43<@Bjarni>what is "north bridge"?
16:44<@Bjarni>a router?
16:44-!-ben_goodger [~ben@host81-153-29-228.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>north bridge is the chip that controls communication between the CPU and the important components on the mainboard (RAM, AGP, south bridge)
16:44<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northbridge_(computing)
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>originally i had another fan on the case, but that got de-centered and was very loud
16:48<@Belugas>"hello av jus signed onto this site coz big transport tycoon fan but i need someones help with ttdalter but dont no wer to go or who to say it to could someone help me please"fuck...
16:48<@Belugas>that's... YURK!
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>indeed
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16:49<@Bjarni>you have a fan on the north bridge?
16:50<+glx>I have a noisy one on it
16:50<+glx>above 6000RPM
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16:51<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, north bridge fans are prone to be noisy because they are much smaller than CPU fans
16:51<+glx>and usually you can't put a bigger one because the graphic card is in the way
16:52<@Bjarni>we should decrease power used in computers and now you tell me that you guys have active cooling on the bridge???
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>i have the suspicion that, despite the active cooling, the north bridge might be responsible for my heat problems
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16:54<@Bjarni>there is a fundamental flaw in computer cooling
16:54<@Bjarni>all the heatsinks and fans moves the heat into the air in the case
16:55<@Bjarni>cooling elsewhere (like machinery) moves the heat out of the case
16:55<+glx>cooling is worse if I open the case
16:56<+glx>(at least for th GPU)
16:56<ben_goodger>Bjarni: the case fans then remove the hot air from the case
16:57<ben_goodger>where is the flaw exactly?
17:01<@Bjarni>the flaw is that the case temperature raises way more than needed
17:01<Progman>wth, why is the hotkey F used for "delete all orders" if G is the hotkey for "Goto"?
17:01<+glx>because it needs to be changed
17:02<Progman>to F?
17:02*Belugas is afraid to imagine waht a computer designed by Bjarni would look like, to correct the "design-flaw" :)
17:02<Progman>right next to G?
17:02<@Bjarni>if the room temperature is 20°C and the case temperature is 30°C, then (in theory) you would be able to lower your CPU temperature by 10°C if it were able to export the heat directly to the external air
17:02<Progman>doesn't make sense
17:02<+glx>and the keys followed the buttons order IIRC
17:03<@Bjarni>Belugas: I didn't tell about a solution but the problem
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand the hotkeys on the order list anyway
17:04<@Bjarni>the real issue at hand is that we need to get rid of a whole lot of heat
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>especially when they override keys from the toolbar, even though the order lists are nowhere near the top (e.g. hidden behind timetables)
17:04<@Bjarni>we should lower the heat production instead since it would also lower the power usage
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17:05<Progman>its okay to have G for Goto but its not okay to have F delete the whole order list
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>where is that configurable hotkeys patch coming anyway?
17:05<@Bjarni>stalled AFAIK
17:05<Progman>who implemented this crap?
17:06<Prof_Frink>Progman: Well, it's OK to have F delete the whole order list... if you have a confirmation dialogue.
17:06<@Bjarni>F = Fault (you made a mistake and want to get rid of all of it before anybody sees what crap you just wrote)
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni always mistypes that and hits the "commit" button instead :p
17:07<@Bjarni>but I don't have a commit button
17:07<@Bjarni>CLI all the way
17:08<@Bjarni>CLI is very useful as you can do all the stuff you like
17:08<@Bjarni>in a quick and scriptable way
17:09<@Bjarni>also I have yet to find a working SVN GUI frontend. Everything I tried was flawed and useless
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17:20<+glx>Zuu: there's a little typo for the check box in edit window
17:21<Zuu>Okay, thanks.
17:21<Zuu>Still doing release-tasks.. takes time.
17:21<+glx>sf.net?
17:22<Zuu>Nope, users.tt-forums.net
17:22<+glx>should be better than sf ;)
17:23<Zuu>Yep. :)
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17:24<Zuu>Have uploaded a new website for the program, and have to change so clients get to that website and not to the tt-forums when they click on the website-button in the about-dialog in 1.1.
17:24<Zuu>And then decide wheither I should spam people with a popup about the alpha or not. :D
17:26<Roujin>you guys were talking about autoreplace some time ago...
17:26<Roujin>... it also didn't work for engines in my game, but it worked for carriages
17:27<Roujin>- just wanted to inform you. Going to bed now, gnite
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause>i have a hornet in my room...
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's actually louder than a north bridge fan :p
18:51<ln>certainly, especially with the afterburner on.
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18:53<Eddi|zuHause>no kidding, i'm sure it has :p
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19:12*Bjarni notes that rejecting Eddi|zuHause's patches might be a good idea if his room is so full of bugs that they even appear in mid air
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19:13<Guest871>hi. i'm having trouble running openttd
19:14<Guest871>i've downloaded the 0.62 source and compiled
19:14<ln>you need the data files from the CD
19:14<Guest871>but when i run it goes through map generation and stops at
19:14<Guest871>dbg: [net] Map generated, starting game
19:14<Guest871>i have the data files
19:14<@Bjarni>looks like it
19:14<@Bjarni>otherwise you couldn't even get to main menu
19:14<Guest871>i can't get the menu
19:15<Guest871>"dbg: [net] Map generated, starting game" is the last message shown on the console, but no menu appears
19:15<Zuu>Guest871: so you start with -g?
19:15<Zuu>Or you run dedicated?
19:15<Guest871>i'm not using any command line switches
19:15<Guest871>what does -g do?
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>you have forgotten to install sdl-devel [or similar] and ignored the big warning from ./configure
19:15<@Bjarni>it skips the menu and starts a game right away
19:16<Guest871>possibly
19:16<Guest871>i'll give that a go
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>certainly ;)
19:16-!-ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has quit [Quit: ecke]
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>the warning that says "no video driver found, building dedicated only".
19:17<@Bjarni>well
19:17<@Bjarni>we could ask for config.log
19:17<Guest871>i saw that, it came immediately after a warning about windows only, so i thought it was a windows only warning
19:17<Zuu>Hopefully you don't have to make a system update of hundreds of packages with Yum as I had to do to get sdl-devel on a CentoOS computer that hadn't been updated for ages. :)
19:18<@Bjarni>on http://paste.openttd.org
19:18<Guest871>htis is a pretty up to date ubuntu, so i shouldn't have any problems
19:19<Guest871>recompiling now, should have results in a few minutes
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>imho, that warning should be changed into an error, the few people that really want a dedicated build can configure that manually
19:20<Zuu>Guest871: Check in aptitude (or synaptics) that you have sdl-devel installed? Or you already have done that and installed sdl-devel?
19:20<Guest871>i've installed sdl-devel and recompiled
19:20<Guest871>everything works now
19:20<Guest871>thanks for your help guys
19:20<Zuu>Nice :)
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>i told you so ;)
19:20<Zuu>Now you only have to learn how to become a Tycoon :)
19:21<Guest871>i've been playing 0.60 for the last few days
19:21<Guest871>because that's the version in the ubuntu repo
19:21<Guest871>but i needed to update to 0.62 to connect to a server some friends of mine are running
19:21<Zuu>Okay, just a kind notice. It's 0.6.0 not 0.60.
19:21<@Bjarni>and 0.6.2
19:22<Guest871>makes sense
19:22<@Bjarni>0.6.2 is the same as 0.6.0 except for some bug fixes
19:22<Guest871>but different enough that i can't connect to a 0.6.2 server with the 0.6.0 client
19:22<@Bjarni>yeah
19:22<@Bjarni>because if the same command is executed on both computers then they should behave the same
19:23<Zuu>The client and server must be of exactly the same version. (except for some minor diferences that experts can handle)
19:23<@Bjarni>but if one of them is buggy and the other one handles it as intended then you desync
19:26<guru3>quick question, does anything bad happen if a thermometer shoots all the way up to the top?
19:26-!-Touqen [~stephen@c-98-216-253-146.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:27<@Bjarni>you mean a mercury one?
19:27<@Bjarni>I guess so
19:28<@Bjarni>in fact I know it can break the glass
19:28<@Bjarni>hopefully you aren't measuring the temperature of a person ;)
19:28<guru3>well i think it's an alchohol one
19:29<guru3>i just put it on the heatsink of this thin client
19:29<guru3>it goes up to 50C
19:29<guru3>and some few mm above the markings
19:29<guru3>and when i pulled it off that's where the alchohol was
19:29<@Bjarni>get it away from there
19:29<guru3>i did that already
19:30<guru3>right i'll file this one away under "not clever"
19:30<@Bjarni>it can also cause bobbles to appear
19:30<guru3>bobbles?
19:30<@Bjarni>yes
19:30<+glx>bubbles
19:30<@Bjarni>in the liquid
19:30<@Bjarni>err
19:30<guru3>ah
19:31<guru3>i haven't seen any of those yet
19:31<@Bjarni>listen to what I'm intend to write :P
19:31<+glx>you played too much bobbles bubbles
19:31<@Bjarni><guru3> i haven't seen any of those yet <- I think they appear while it cools down
19:31<guru3>well crud
19:31<guru3>i'll keep an eye on it
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19:32<guru3>the question to follow this all up is... do you suppose a passive heatsink is too hot at 55C for a 300mhz amd geode?
19:32<@Bjarni>if it happens then the solution is to heat it up again and hope they will go away
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19:32<+glx>guru3: what is the cpu temp?
19:32<guru3>hot enough that thermometer on top goes to the top of the glass? (past 50C)
19:32<+glx>and what is the max temp it can handle?
19:32<guru3>i can't measure cpu temp
19:32<guru3>and i have no clue what the max is
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>like that thing they told me when i went to university: "The Professor says A, he actually means B, writes C on the blackboard, but D is correct."
19:33<@Bjarni>I would prefer a cooler heatsink
19:33<guru3>yeah it's the bit that worries me
19:33<guru3>but i had this running for a two or three weeks continuously before
19:33<guru3>and it seems to still work fine
19:33*glx won't put fingers on its GPU heatsink (GPU temp is 56C)
19:34<+glx>and it's passively cooled
19:34<ln>that's a lot of coulombs
19:34<@Bjarni>but the amount of heat that escapes from the heatsink is k(a-b) where a is the heatsink temperature and b is ambient temperature
19:34<guru3>and i'm planning to leave one of these one while i go away on holiday with a webcam as a security box
19:34<@Bjarni>so naturally it has to be somewhat warmer than the air
19:36<@Bjarni><guru3> and i'm planning to leave one of these one while i go away on holiday with a webcam as a security box <-- somebody did that in Denmark (he went to work) and when he got back he had a video of the burglars who had visited him more than once
19:36<guru3>a friend that lives about 10 mins away from me had his laptop stolen
19:36<guru3>i'll have my laptop with me
19:36<@Bjarni>they took more or less all electronic stuff except the computer that recorded them
19:36<guru3>but i'd prefer my desktop remained firmly seated in my room
19:36<guru3>i was thinking of leaving it hooked up with a cellphone to send me smses occaisonally
19:37<@Bjarni>do you have a GPS in the cellphone?
19:37<guru3>no
19:37<@Bjarni>too bad
19:37<guru3>the battery doesn't even hold a charge
19:37<@Bjarni>doesn't matter
19:37<@Bjarni>you can charge it from USB
19:37<@Bjarni>hmm
19:37<guru3>it's not usb -_-
19:38<@Bjarni>you know you can buy cables that charges cellphones with power from USB ports
19:38<guru3>oh true
19:38<guru3>i was thinking of hacking a power cable to do it though ><
19:38<guru3>some wire strippers and electrical tape work wonders
19:38<@Bjarni>getting a real USB cable might do a better job
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19:39<@Bjarni>you can actually buy PCI USB cards with USB inside the case
19:39<guru3>this is a thin client though, there's not that much space inside the case
19:39<@Bjarni>I never figured out what they would be useful for before now
19:39<guru3>(there IS a pci slot, but that's beside the point)
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19:40<ln>there's no guarantee a cellphone would work inside the case.
19:40<@Bjarni>some woman got her camera stolen in Florida. After it was stolen, then camera detected an open wifi access point, woke up and transmitted all the pictures to the owner's computer
19:40<guru3>that's true ln
19:41<guru3>my idea is to try and get it to send a mms before it gets taken away
19:41<@Bjarni>not only did she get all her pictures back, she also got pictures of the thieves, who had taken pictures of themselves when testing the camera
19:41<guru3>not sure if it can send mmses though
19:42-!-Guest871 [~peter@C-59-101-132-224.mel.connect.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:42<@Bjarni>the police got the pictures and went "ohh... those guys. We should pay them a visit" and they still had the camera and some other stolen stuff when the police arrived
19:42<@Bjarni>I want a camera like that
19:42<@Bjarni>if it's stolen, then it sends pictures of the thieves back home so the police will know who did it
19:43<@Bjarni>now all it needs to get is GPS
19:43<ln>Bjarni's stolen camera must be #1 on the cops' priority list.
19:45<@Bjarni>luckily nobody ever stole my camera
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20:19<@Bjarni>goodnight everybody
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22:02<ashaw>hello
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22:05<@Belugas>hello ashaw
22:11<CIA-9>OpenTTD: belugas * r14027 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp gfx_func.h gfx_type.h): -Codechange: Document a bit the DoDrawString function while removing yet som more magic numbers and one "false" colour
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22:12<@Belugas>wow... two of you!
22:12<alexisshaw>i am interested in making a train for logic
22:13<alexisshaw>needs to be fast but have no capacity to carry anything
22:13<alexisshaw>and not be ablr to have any cargo
22:13<alexisshaw>should work on normal tracks
22:14<alexisshaw>could i do this with newGRF
22:14<alexisshaw>?
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22:15<@Belugas>just use a locomotive then
22:15<alexisshaw>needs to go at plus 1000km/h
22:15<alexisshaw>with verry high acceleration.
22:15<@Belugas>ho...
22:15<@Belugas>well... dunno...
22:16<@Belugas>have you checked ttdpatch's wiki?
22:16<alexisshaw>yeah not to easy to read
22:16<@Belugas>yeah well... welcome to the club :)
22:16<alexisshaw>i think it can be done but i have no idea how tp do it.
22:17<alexisshaw>who would know?
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22:20<@Belugas>for sure, Dalestan or michael blunck, from ttdp
22:20<@Belugas>i am trying to find out looking at the sources, right now
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22:26<@Belugas>yeah, i think it can be done
22:27<@Belugas>just that do not go over 65536, else you will have a simple wagon
22:27<@Belugas>so, basically, you need to specify some properties to your new train
22:27<@Belugas>look at this page: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Trains
22:28<@Belugas>mainly prop 08, 09
22:28<ashaw>not 00?
22:28<@Belugas>maybe 14, 15 too
22:28<@Belugas>00?
22:29<@Belugas>date of intro?
22:29<@Belugas>quite irrelevant, i'd say
22:29<ashaw>sorry me missunderstood.
22:33<@Belugas>it's ok :)
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22:33<@Belugas>newgrf is not somthing that can be understood in a few minutes
22:34<@Belugas>Dalestan said once thta you should read the whole spech and then you'd be able to start working
22:34<@Belugas>a bit extremist,
22:34<@Belugas>but stillm he has a point in the sens that you need to have a bigger picture than just your immediat interest
22:37<@Belugas>ho ho...
22:37<@Belugas>did i broke something?
22:39<@Belugas>mmh...
22:39<@Belugas>i did
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22:48<@Belugas>yeah... thank you very much!!
22:48<@Belugas>been a pleasure for me too !!
22:48<@Belugas>pfff
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22:54<CIA-9>OpenTTD: belugas * r14028 /trunk/src/gfx_func.h: -Fix(r14027): Wrong value for the multiline_skipping. Just the other way around.
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23:06<ashaw>what speech is that
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23:30<CIA-9>OpenTTD: belugas * r14029 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix(r14027): reverting the TC_FROMSTRING back to the magical 0xFE number. Exact meaning will need to be found later.
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 09 00:00:21 2008