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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-10

---Logopened Sun Aug 10 00:00:02 2008
00:56<Fennec>geez
00:56<Fennec>mountaintops sure are windy
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02:47-!-ashaw [~alexis.sh@74.23.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #openttd
02:47<ashaw>hello.
02:48<Fennec>boo
02:48<ashaw>i seem to be haing a problem with this newGRF
02:48<ashaw>that i am writing
02:49<ashaw> 0 * 4 00 00 00 00
02:49<ashaw> 1 * 8 08 06 "AS" 01 01 00 00
02:49<ashaw> 2 * 53 00 00 01 01 FF 08 B1 00 \w1920/01/01 02 00 03 FF 04 FF 05 00 06 07 07 05 08 01 09 00 80 0B 20 4E 0D 01 0E 36 4C 00 00 13 00 16 01 17 01 18 01 19 08 1F FF 20 01 27 01
02:49<ashaw> 3 * 13 04 00 01 01 FF 08 B1 4c 6f 67 69 63 00
02:49<ashaw> 4 * 4 01 00 01 08
02:49<ashaw> 5 data\sprites/new.pcx 18 8 01 18 8 -3 -10
02:49<ashaw> 6 data\sprites/new.pcx 34 8 09 14 20 -14 -6
02:49<ashaw> 7 data\sprites/new.pcx 66 8 01 12 28 -14 -6
02:49<ashaw> 8 data\sprites/new.pcx 114 8 09 16 20 -4 -8
02:49<ashaw> 9 data\sprites/new.pcx 146 8 01 18 8 -3 -10
02:49<ashaw> 10 data\sprites/new.pcx 162 8 09 16 20 -14 -7
02:49<ashaw> 11 data\sprites/new.pcx 194 8 01 12 28 -14 -6
02:49<ashaw> 12 data\sprites/new.pcx 242 8 09 14 20 -4 -6
02:49<ashaw> 13 * 9 02 00 00 01 01 00 00 00 00
02:49<ashaw> 14 * 9 03 00 01 FF 08 B1 00 00 00
02:49<ashaw>plus the header
02:49<Fennec>eek.
02:49<ashaw>what eek.
02:49<ashaw>?
02:49<Fennec>pastebin much? ;)
02:49<ashaw>what? i do not understand
02:51<Fennec>a pastebin is a site which allows one to paste in text. it will the retain the text for a period of time, and will provide a URL on the Internets where that text can be accessed. As such, it is common if people have 14-line thingies to paste, that they find a pastebin and paste instead a 1-line URL. :)
02:51<Fennec>anyway. hence 'eek'. many lines. :) not so much an issue here as it is elsewhere, I guess.
02:51<ashaw>oh, do you know where one of these is?
02:51<ashaw>i am reletively new to IRC
02:53<Fennec>http://www.google.com/search?q=pastebin
02:55<ashaw>so this is a pasetbin http://pastebin.com/d1134032
02:56<ashaw>anyway do you know why this will not work.
02:56<Fennec>also much easier to copy-paste from pastebin than from IRC (your nickname isn't mixed in with it)
02:56<ashaw>i just did a pastebin
02:56<ashaw>see link
02:56<ashaw>will pose pcx shortly
02:58<Fennec>I saw :)
02:59<Fennec>anyway I honestly have no idea since I'm not really into development of such things at allllll (yet). sorry :)
03:00<ashaw>ok do you know where i should look
03:02<Fennec>here :) just wait around for someone more useful than I
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03:34<ashaw>looking hello do you know about newgrf
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03:51<Ammler>ashaw: run nforenum over it first
03:54<Ammler>http://pastebin.com/d37178e5e
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04:10<@peter1138>ashaw, here's a tip. Comment your NFO.
04:10<@peter1138>Split lines up into logical blocks.
04:11<doc|home>when you buy 75% of the shares of a competitor, do you take 75% of their income? or what's the point of that if not?
04:13<@peter1138>No, you just get lots of money when you sell if their company value has gone up.
04:14<doc|home>ah, ok
04:14<doc|home>you should get dividends :)
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04:21<@peter1138>There have been some proposals for changing shares.
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04:34<Ammler>edit function in fs would be helpful :-)
04:34<frosch123>there is an edit function, just that ordinary users do not have the rights to use it :p
04:36<Ammler>FS#2215 is tested with r14032
04:37<@Rubidium>is that suburban renewal set 0.1?
04:37<Ammler>yes
04:37<@Rubidium>then it's a flawed newgrf
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>imho, flawed newgrfs should not be able to trigger asserts
04:40<@Rubidium>yeah I know... but...
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, they should error out much sooner
04:41<@Rubidium>the fix for this flawed newgrf is mutual exclusive with a fix for another flaw in a newgrf that also causes assertions AND desyncs
04:43<@Rubidium>and there's already a 0.11 or so that has the problem solved
04:46<Ammler>Rubidium: just checking that
04:47<@Rubidium>the cause is by the way that the newgrfs tells that a house is the southern part of a 2x2 building when it's a 1x1 building
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04:48<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, just compile without asserts ;)
04:48<Wolf01>hello
04:49<@peter1138>Hello Mr Wolf
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>_I_ did not get the error ;)
04:49<@peter1138>Ammler, just compile without asserts ;)
04:49<Ammler>indeed, 0.11 don't assert anymore
04:50<@peter1138>Rubidium, was it me who made all cargo properties be loaded in the reservation stage?
04:50<Ammler>hehe, time is april, not august
04:50<Ammler>you can delete the FS post, if you like :-)
04:51<@peter1138>It's April?
04:51<@Rubidium>peter1138: don't know
04:51<@peter1138>I can't remember why all of it is loaded there :o
04:52<frosch123>because the specs say so?
04:52<@peter1138>Do they?
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04:52<Ammler>I should really remember the alck of edit rights... :-)
04:52<frosch123>cargos shall be available to all grfs during activation independent of their loading order
04:53<Ammler>I like to save from time to time to not lose the data
04:53<@peter1138>Okay.
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04:55-!-doc|home is now known as doc|work
04:56<@peter1138>I have a similar problem with my railtypes WIP.
04:57<@peter1138>But I think I can get away with just loading the labels in the reservation stage.
04:57<Alberth>Anybody wanting to examine this debug output further? "dbg: [ms] Vehicle 4 (index 519) arrived at wrong stop". I get it from a save game I downloaded from the forums. No idea what it means.
04:57<@peter1138>But I also need the labels within the railtype property bit, for specifying powered/compatible types.
04:57<@peter1138>s/But/As/
04:58<@peter1138>Alberth, it went to a road stop that it hadn't reserved.
04:58<frosch123>Alberth: most likely drive through issue
04:59<@Rubidium>peter1138: is it easily extendable to be used for road/tram too?
04:59<frosch123>i.e. the vehicle decides for a free slot of one roadstop, but to get there it needs to drive though another stop
05:00<Alberth>Well, there are a lot of vehicles in the game but only this message, so it may be nice to use this save game for debugging. Should I save it somewhere, or is it not that important?
05:00<@peter1138>I was thinking of doing them separately, as they do behave differently.
05:01<@peter1138>i.e. different arrangement of sprites, different map storage... etc.
05:01<@peter1138>There's no way to have more than 3 road types is there?
05:01<frosch123>Alberth: Check if the wrong stop is a drive through stop and if other stops can only be reached through that stop
05:02<Alberth>ok, how does one find Vehicle 4 at index 519?
05:03<frosch123>peter1138: As I doubt that there will be ever a third road type that would be buildable together with normal road and tram on a single tile, I would suggest to remove the third roadtype and instead add a subtype for road and tram
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: typically, it's when a newly loaded grf replaces busses with trams
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>or vice versa
05:03<@peter1138>frosch123, yeah, that is possible too.
05:03<@Rubidium>peter1138: about the 3 roadtypes is "trueish"
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>then the bus can go to a tram-only stop
05:04<@Rubidium>either 3 fully overlayable roadtypes or 5 different road-roadtypes and 4 different tram-roadtypes where you can have at most 1 road-roadtype and 1 tram-roadtype on a tile
05:04<@peter1138>Err....
05:04<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like several road types, especially if they come with speed limits
05:05<@peter1138>How confusing :)
05:05<@peter1138>Does the second type *need* to be tram?
05:05<@Rubidium>not necessarily
05:05<@peter1138>You could have road bits 1, road bits 2, road type 1, road type 2.
05:05<@peter1138>(On a tile)
05:05<@Rubidium>could yes
05:06<@peter1138>Road type 1 could end up being tram if that's the only thing built.
05:06<@peter1138>That might get complicated but is probably the most flexible.
05:06<frosch123>note that OWNER_TOWN can only be stored for road type 1 (currently)
05:06*Rubidium is off for breakfast
05:06<@peter1138>Anyway, should this be merged with my railtype functionality or should it be separate?
05:07<@peter1138>I'm edging for separate, as apart from being a transport type that vehicles go on, they're not that similar.
05:07<@peter1138>I guess we don't even have a roadtypeinfo struct...
05:08<@peter1138>How many road sprites are there for normal landscape? For rail we have 26 sprites, plus another 8 sprites for tunnels.
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05:09<frosch123>4 slopes plus 15 flat tiles = 19 ?
05:09<frosch123>plus snow
05:10<frosch123>plus various 'roadside's
05:10<frosch123>i.e. lights/trees...
05:10<@peter1138>Yeah, there is that too.
05:10<frosch123>yup, the roadsides make it quite different
05:11<frosch123>I guess you are not planning to include rail-fence support
05:11<@peter1138>I wasn't, but I could.
05:11<@peter1138>It would be a good idea actually, just for allowing more options.
05:12<@peter1138>Hmm, 5 cursors for rail, 3 cursors for road
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>autoroad needs a highlighting mechanism like autorail
05:12<@peter1138>And depots to consider...
05:12<@peter1138>Stations, level crossings and bridges are quite cumbersome.
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>roads could use separation from the roadsides
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05:14<Eddi|zuHause>like "road front", "road lane", "road middle", "road other lane", "road back"
05:14<Alberth>Found the problem. No NewGRFs loaded, it is an AI bus stuck at 2 road pieces and a normal bus station. See also http://c.imagehost.org/view/0259/stuck_bus.png
05:14<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, problem is that's 5 sprites to draw instead of 1.
05:14<@peter1138>Haha, clever AI :D
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it'd be a good way towards flexibility
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. road grf authors won't need to care for the road sides (pavement, trees, road signs/traffic lights etc.)
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>or it would allow tram lines with middle pylons
05:17<frosch123>peter1138: The roadsided are already drawn separately
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>also, a similar system could be used for bridges
05:18<@peter1138>frosch123, the stuff on them, yes.
05:18<@peter1138>I have no idea how to handle level crossings yet :o
05:18<frosch123>both rail and road have to provide a sprite, which will be overlayed
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>separate rail drawing from road drawing... or do you mean map-space-wise?
05:19<@peter1138>Bridges are awkward, but we can add another *6* sprites to be used as the surface of the bridge.
05:19<frosch123>you can also do it the smatz-way and precompute the overlayed sprites and store them somewhere
05:19<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause: drawing wise.
05:20<@peter1138>Hmm, yes, level crossings: get road sprite, get rail overlay sprite...
05:20<@peter1138>What about the lights?
05:20<@peter1138>They come from the roadside style at the moment.
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>lights need to be tall objects, like roadside trees or catenary pylons
05:20<frosch123>the artists always want to draw barring, but they need real bounding boxes
05:20<@peter1138>Yes
05:20<frosch123>as they need to be drawn in front of vehicles
05:21<@peter1138>GRF specified bounding boxes are not necessary though.
05:21<@peter1138>We can say it will always be two sprites either side of the track at here and here.
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>bars must be drawn behind the waiting bus, but in front of the train, lights must be drawn before any vehicle
05:21<@peter1138>We're way ahead of you ;)
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>and vice versa for the opposite side
05:21<frosch123>wrt to the smatz-way: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2071/getfile/2986/snow.png <- all tiles are precomputed
05:22<@peter1138>That works for snow, I don't know how well that would work for rail/road.
05:22<@peter1138>However, as I'd like to have an 'overlay' option anyway, it probably isn't necessary.
05:22<@peter1138>Where *all* track is overlayed on the landscape ground sprite.
05:23<frosch123>I meant it wrt. to the different ground sprites. I.e. preocmpute the result of grass with the road-overlay etc
05:24<@peter1138>hm
05:25<@peter1138>Oh, the web service are down again? :(
05:28<Wolf01>peter1138, what about composing the sprite and then reuse it where needed? this approach should avoid multiple drawing of one tile with more overlays
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>that will only work for flat tiles anywa
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>y
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. not for crossing bars, trees, pylons
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05:32<@peter1138>Wolf01, possible. I'd like to avoid that kind of magic if possible, though.
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05:32<Wolf01>yes, I meant track/road tiles, accessories will remain accessories
05:32<@peter1138>And current I'm using an Action3/2/1 chain, so technically it might be possible to have... variations!
05:33<Wolf01>nice
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>random bits on the map ;)
05:34<@peter1138>Mainly I'm using Action3/2/1 as it's the easiest way of adding sprites. GRM is horrible...
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05:35<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: more pseudorandom bits on the map ;)
05:36<@Rubidium>one random number for the whole map and the random bits generated from the tile index and that random number
05:36<frosch123>I guess pseudo-randombits (only depending on tileindex and game seed; i.e. do not have to be stored in the map array) would be enough
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll, guaranteed to be random
05:36<frosch123>lol, two apes - one thought
05:37<@Rubidium>Alberth: what AI made that marvel of engineering and map reading?
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05:41<Alberth>No idea, I was also wondering how it got there. The station that is in the way also of the same AI (I added the green signs after destroying a few buildings to get a clear view). Given that the guy that made the save game didn't have any road vehicles, I don't understand how a piece of road in a city can get lost.
05:42<@Rubidium>so it's an old savegame?
05:43<Alberth>From here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=38895&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a, first post
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05:46<ashaw>hello i have worked more on my newgrf and i do not understand the error i get
05:46<ashaw>could you help me interperet it.
05:46<ashaw>http://pastebin.com/m26208825
05:47<@Rubidium>the warning is for the next line
05:49<@Rubidium>you say you want to replace 1 property of 1 train, but it looks like you want to replace much more
05:49<frosch123>ashaw: looks like you are missing a new line and '-1 *'
05:50<frosch123>hmm no, I though it looked like a varaction2 that startet there
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05:55<ashaw>no only one train
05:56<ashaw>i want it to be fast with good acceleration
05:56<ashaw>but not be able to cary any cargo
05:57<ashaw>fast means 10000km/h
05:57<ashaw>I was trying to make a new train but just simple for now
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06:03<DJNekkid>ashaw:
06:03<DJNekkid>you need to specify how many properties you changed ...
06:04<DJNekkid>-1 * 0 00 00 <number> 01 <id> <prop 1> <prop 2> ... <prop n>
06:04<DJNekkid>if that was understandable
06:05<DJNekkid>and you can use \w and \b for the values
06:05<DJNekkid>much easier to read then the little endian word values
06:05<DJNekkid>as well as you dont have to hexconvert stuff
06:06<DJNekkid>for example:
06:06<DJNekkid>-1 * 0 00 00 \b28 01 \b*10502 00 \w1999-01-01 02 05 03 \b20 04 \b255 05 00 06 07 07 \b20 08 01 09 \w160 0B \w1050 12 FD 13 00 14 \b110 15 00 16 \b52 17 \b46 19 28 1A \b*162 1B \w1050 1C 00 1F \b68 20 20 22 30 27 06 28 \w3 29 \w1016 0E \dx4c30 0D \b107
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>if you just want simple trains, you might want to check out http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=35497
06:14<ashaw>cool
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06:36*peter1138 is now edging towards using hardwood or softwood planks for desk building.
06:37-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd
06:39<@peter1138>DJNekkid, and you too, split the lines up!
06:41<@peter1138>bc
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06:46<ashaw>what is the tractive effort?
06:50-!-Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving]
06:51<De_Ghost>BOTH WOOD ARE AWSOME
06:51<De_Ghost>but hard is better so you don't scratch it
06:52<DJNekkid>peter1138: i know i should, but i didnt know i could do it when i started nfo'ing, and i just heavent gotten around to do it afterwards :)
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06:53<@peter1138>De_Ghost, originally the idea was to use MDF...
06:53<DJNekkid>and 1 prop per line dont work either... i guess i could split it up to "dates/year-values" "physics", "costs" and "misc" or something
06:53<@peter1138>1 prop per line doesn't work? Why not?
06:53<De_Ghost>mdf are horrid
06:53<De_Ghost>heavy
06:54<DJNekkid>it wont compile...
06:54<@peter1138>Yeah, hence me changing the plan.
06:54<DJNekkid>not sure why
06:54<@peter1138>DJNekkid, works for me.
06:54<@peter1138>De_Ghost, but I'm having difficulty finding hardwood :(
06:54<De_Ghost>home depot
06:54<De_Ghost>lol
06:54*peter1138 ponders a proper timber place.
06:54<@peter1138>All the DIY chains just seem to do pine.
06:55<De_Ghost>what you could do is
06:55<ashaw>what is tractive effort?
06:55<De_Ghost>acually nvm
06:55<@peter1138>De_Ghost, carry on :)
06:55<DJNekkid>i did try to do like this, and then remove the //'s that were supposed to give a value
06:55<DJNekkid>http://paste.openttd.org/43819
06:56*peter1138 has almost zero knowledge on woodworking things...
06:56-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
06:56<De_Ghost>then how you gonna build it?
06:56<@peter1138>With a plan.
06:56<De_Ghost>and a hack saw?
06:56<De_Ghost>gl
06:56<@peter1138>no :p
06:57<@peter1138>I know how to chop wood up and attach it, heh...
06:57<Sacro>anyone miss me?
06:57<@peter1138>Sacro, yes.
06:57<Sacro>!seen Bjarni
06:57<Sacro>@seen Bjani
06:57<@DorpsGek>Sacro: I have not seen Bjani.
06:57<Sacro>peter1138: aww :)
06:57<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
06:57<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 13 hours, 1 minute, and 46 seconds ago: <Bjarni> ln: not only is it a completely random question.... you are also asking about two movies I have never even heard of
06:57<De_Ghost>well you could just buy a few plank of that green wood and just paint it :D
06:57<Sacro>in comes 1584 new e-mails
06:58<@peter1138>De_Ghost, it'll be a fitted desk, so I shall attach supports to the walls, then lay the wood across that, gluing it together and screwing it down.
06:58<@peter1138>Then sand and varnish it.
06:58<@peter1138>Job done.
06:58<@peter1138>In theory :p
07:00<De_Ghost>why you need a desk?
07:00<De_Ghost>i was just thinking just wall mount my mons :D
07:00<De_Ghost>then anydesk will do :D
07:01<De_Ghost>a nice glass table :)
07:01<De_Ghost>from ikea !!
07:01<De_Ghost>lol
07:01<@peter1138>Cos it's ugly underneath, heh
07:02<De_Ghost>ugly?
07:02<@peter1138>Computer, cables, 4-ways, and a water pipe too.
07:02<De_Ghost>o
07:02<De_Ghost>errrm
07:02<De_Ghost>lol
07:02<De_Ghost>make a hole in the dry wall and hid all ur cables in it
07:03<De_Ghost>kkekeke
07:03<@peter1138>Dry wall?
07:03<De_Ghost>you know
07:03<De_Ghost>your wall
07:03<@peter1138>Oh. no.
07:03<@peter1138>I don't fancy chiselling away at all the bricks.
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07:06<@peter1138>Proper bricks too.
07:08<frosch123>http://www.math.tu-clausthal.de/~mtce/ottd/MammothTrainsDisabled.png <- did non-mammoth trains always behaved like that, or is it broken?
07:09<@peter1138>Yes, articulated parts only count as one.
07:09<@peter1138>Although it was mostly for autoreplace's benefit.
07:09<frosch123>I.e. do not care about wagon length, nor articulated parts, nor multiheaded parts...
07:09-!-Zahl_ [~Zahl@e176231082.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
07:09<@peter1138>It never cared about individual wagon length.
07:09<frosch123>yeah, autoreplace. That is why I aks
07:10<@peter1138>The problem was replacing from a one-part to a multipart vehicle.
07:10<@peter1138>It would then be too long and break the rules, heh...
07:10<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/autoreplace_rewrite4.diff <- well that works now
07:10<frosch123>I just wanted to add handling of non-mammoth trains, but noticed that it does not make any sense :s
07:11<@peter1138>I think it can be changed to behave as expected if you can make autoreplace work with it ;)
07:12<frosch123>fine
07:12<De_Ghost>no there is a 4" gap between ur dry wall and the bricks
07:12<@peter1138>No there isn't.
07:13<Ammler>why does mammuttrains need to be a option anyway?
07:13<@peter1138>Ammler, don't ask that sort of question... there's no answer :p
07:14<@peter1138>De_Ghost, this is a 1950s house. Internal walls are brick, external walls are brick-gap-brick...
07:14<frosch123>Ammler: If you change it from a stupid bool to an integer it might be quite interesting for difficulty settings
07:15<frosch123>i.e. only allow three-tile trains :p
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07:17<Ammler>I would know a more usefull switch ;-)
07:17<Ammler>PBS
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07:20<@peter1138>You want to disable PBS? :o
07:21<Ammler>that would be a difficulty setting :)
07:22<@Rubidium>and most difficult only two way signals? (no presignals/pbs/oneways)
07:22<Ammler>real b2b game
07:23<Ammler>I guess, there is no nettwork playable version without them?
07:24<Ammler>well, you see still players not using presignals
07:24<@Rubidium>yup
07:24<Ammler>like screenshots rom Bearnie
07:24<@Rubidium>even only two way simple signals
07:24<Ammler>the ISR tester
07:25<@peter1138>b2b? Business to business?
07:25<@Rubidium>and using proper signalling you could then get 100 times more profit out of the same network
07:25<DJNekkid>back to basics
07:25<@Rubidium>back to bjarni-isms
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07:28<Eddi|zuHause><ashaw> what is the tractive effort? <- the force the engine can transfer to the rails before the wheels slip
07:28<@peter1138>Hello Brianetta.
07:44<@peter1138>Rubidium, did you have any further thoughts as to combining railtype and roadtype support?
07:44<Brianetta>hi peter1138.
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07:46<Eddi|zuHause>from a user point of view, only the visible interfaces [i.e. the ingame building and usage, and from the other end the newgrf specification actions] need to be similar
07:50<@peter1138>I don't know how similar they'll end up.
07:50<@peter1138>Roads don't have speed limits, curve penalties, etc...
07:50<@peter1138>Hmm.
07:50<@peter1138>Nice to see ships getting some NewGRF attention again :D
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07:51<Eddi|zuHause>ships could use a size classification...
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>like ships that are half-tile wide (like road vehicles), ships that are 1-tile wide, and ships that are 2-tile wide (ocean only)
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07:52<Eddi|zuHause>together with non-overlapping ships
07:53<@peter1138>And 'multistop' for docks.
07:53<@peter1138>(Which I partially did once)
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07:59<@Rubidium>peter1138: I haven't had very much thought into combining rail and roadtypes yet
08:00<@Rubidium>but the main point of interest is really the level crossing
08:01<@Rubidium>and bridges as those are the things causing the most problems for cross-NewGRF compatability
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08:04<Eddi|zuHause>it could be useful for "elevated" railtypes, like the transrapid track, to have non-blocking road crossings
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08:06<@Rubidium>elevated railtypes should be done using freeformed bridges, not a visual hack
08:06<@Rubidium>as it's going to flicker horribly when trains and rvs cross at the same time
08:07-!-Ammler is now known as ProZone
08:08<Brianetta>boats already do that flickering
08:08<@Rubidium>which is why I dislike them
08:08<ashaw>what is the formulae that openttd uses for acceleration
08:08<ashaw>?
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08:09<@Rubidium>ashaw: it's arbitrary because the distance and time are arbitrary too
08:10<ashaw>i know
08:10<@Rubidium>and there is no "single" acceleration formula
08:10<ashaw>for a train
08:10-!-ProZone is now known as Ammler
08:10<ashaw>a maglev train
08:10<ashaw>from GRF vars
08:10<Brianetta>tiles per tick per tick
08:11<Brianetta>tiles per tick squared
08:11<ashaw>i am trying to figure out how to get the most acceleration out
08:11<ashaw>of a train
08:11<ashaw>them absolute max possible
08:11<Brianetta>Get a powerful locomotive, and don't put any wagons on it.
08:11<@Rubidium>max everything except weight is my best guess
08:12<ashaw>for 60000km/h
08:12<ashaw>but what about TE and CF
08:13<@Rubidium>CF?
08:14<ashaw>coefficeant of friction
08:14<ashaw>and there seems to be a ballance between te and mass
08:14<Ammler>ashaw: http://svn.openttdcoop.org/grfdev/logic/
08:15<ashaw>and HP
08:15<Ammler>maglev has no TE influce
08:15<ashaw>pass
08:15<ashaw>ah
08:15<ashaw>pass?
08:15<Ammler>oh
08:15<Ammler>is it private :-)
08:15<ashaw>yep
08:16<ashaw>trying to make the perfect train for logic
08:16<ashaw>and have run into the problem of acceleration
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08:17<Ammler>ashaw: try again
08:18<Ammler>http://svn.openttdcoop.org/grfdev/logic/makegrf
08:19<ashaw>you and i have same idea
08:20<ashaw>monorail?
08:20<Ammler>yeah, I tried with monorail too
08:20<Ammler>that's why I know, that TE has no influence in maglev, but in monorail :-)
08:20<ashaw>TE good or bad?
08:21<Ammler>hmm?
08:21<ashaw>in this case
08:21<Ammler>bad of course, I like to have a unlimited acceleration
08:21<Ammler>but I do not like maglev tracks
08:22<Ammler>thats why I tried to make a monorail logic train
08:22<Ammler>the grf in the repo is maglev
08:22<ashaw>no there is no unlimited acceleraton
08:23<ashaw>i know this because when you set the speed at 60000
08:23<ashaw>it takes 10 min to speed up
08:23<Ammler>try the grf 0.1
08:24<ashaw>this is my grf
08:24<ashaw>i am talking about
08:24<Ammler>yep, and I speak about MY grf :-)
08:24<Ammler>which has max speed immediiately
08:24<ashaw>what 60000km/h
08:25<Ammler>a little bit more :-)
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08:25<ashaw>what 0.1
08:26<ashaw>0.2 has 1000km/h
08:26<ashaw>and no instant acceleration
08:26<Ammler>http://svn.openttdcoop.org/grfdev/logic/logic0.1.grf
08:26<Ammler>0.2 is the experiment with monorail
08:26<Ammler>which failed :-)
08:27<Ammler>hmm, if you have svn brower
08:27<Ammler>you can check older revs of the makegrf
08:29<ashaw>ther seems to be a problem win 0.1
08:30<ashaw>with 0.1
08:33<Ammler>ashaw: which is?
08:34<ashaw>cannot load the grf
08:34<ashaw>fyi here is mine
08:35<ashaw>http://pastebin.com/m7e3e0ddf
08:38<ashaw>i did
08:38<ashaw>i did but will try again
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08:40<ashaw>i did it wil not let me build
08:40<ashaw>sorry
08:47<@peter1138>Rubidium, okay. I think I have a plan for bridges and the line...
08:48<@peter1138>*like
08:49<Sacro>hmm, is yapp in trunk now?
08:49<@peter1138>Yes.
08:49<Sacro>nice
08:49<Sacro>what else happened since the 25/7?
08:49<@peter1138>"You should go away more often"
08:50<Sacro>:(
08:51<@peter1138>I think the same was said to Yorick, but we meant it...
08:52<Sacro>alas poor yorick
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08:56<@peter1138>Grr, bloody B&Q
08:57<Sacro>Grr. bloody hungarians
08:57-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7E315.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
08:57<Sacro>i want my luggage :(
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09:05<Celestar>hey peter1138 :)
09:05<Celestar>hey all
09:06<Celestar>Sacro: hi
09:06<Sacro>hey Celestar
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09:27<@peter1138>Hmm, maybe I should use flooring wood, as it has a tongue and groove.
09:27<@Rubidium>Celestar: http://rbijker.net/openttd/full_load_still_not_working.sav (seemed to be harder to trigger though)
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09:28<@Rubidium>Celestar: version h:565aee
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09:31<@peter1138>Hmm, but that comes in only 2m lengths :o
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09:51<ln>http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=199070
09:53<@peter1138>And in English?
09:55<ln>The Spanish butikkeieren should take the settlement for the day, when he discovered that a coin had the image of the special character Homer Simpson, instead of the Spanish king, Juan Carlos.
09:56<ln>ravøren rørte not the back of the euro coin, which shows europakartet.
09:56<ln>-- I've been offered 20 euros for this coin, "says Martinez.
09:56<Celestar>Rubidium: will check thanks ;)
10:04<ln>peter1138: http://www.reuters.com/article/televisionNews/idUSL872708020080808
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10:15<Yorick>DorpsGek is slow/broken, it seems
10:15<Yorick>I added a comment at FS#1890 :)
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10:23<frosch123>get an editor that shows whitespace
10:26<Yorick>?
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10:30<Yorick>frosch123: ?
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10:35<frosch123>I have heard of patches, where the first chunk is already that horribly formatted, that noone bothered reading it further
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10:38<Yorick>frosch123: should I put english.txt somewhat further down?
10:39<+glx>Yorick: DorpsGek works correctly, it's just new FS version doesn't have xmlrpc stuff
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10:42<Yorick>frosch123: I can't see any horribly formatted piece
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10:51<DJNekkid>funny link!
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11:02<Yorick_>eval this.dispatch("msg nickserv identify " + promptPassword("OFTC password:") + " Yorick")
11:02<Yorick_>argh
11:03-!-Yorick_ is now known as Yorick
11:05<rortom>?
11:06<SpComb>hmm... python, this, irc?
11:08<Yorick>that's actually a chatzilla command
11:08<Yorick>for autoperform
11:08<Yorick>but it failed :(
11:12<+glx>Yorick: identify command just need a password
11:12<Yorick>not if my client discovers my name is already in use and uses another one
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11:49*peter1138 has discovered that 2.7m long planks of wood fit in his car... if I open the glove box.
11:50<Yorick>:D
11:51<Yorick>have you tried opening the glove box, putting the planks in your car and then closing the glove box?
11:52<SpComb>Yorick: and in any case, you can just use and SSL cert and not do any silly msg-nickserv stuff
11:52<SpComb>*use an
11:53<Yorick>I'd rather do that yes
11:53<Yorick>but I would like a client that supports it
11:53<SpComb>and ChatZilla doesn't?
11:53<Yorick>not that I know of
11:54<Yorick>not the custom cert stuff
11:54<SpComb>why not use xchat or somesuch?
11:54<Yorick>I can't compile xchat
11:54<SpComb>irssi?
11:55<Yorick>I don't like the interface
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12:01<Brianetta>irssi's interface needs a complete overhaul
12:03<Yorick>it needs a gui :)
12:04<SpComb>then it wouldn't be irssi anymore
12:05*SpComb has used irssi with the default settings (minor modifications) for three years now
12:06<hylje>irssi could use a menu-based configuration, but that's about it
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12:14<@peter1138>Yorick: I could, but the glove box door would get in the way...
12:14<@peter1138>Also it would require putting the wood back.
12:14<Yorick>you put the wood in the glove box?
12:15<@peter1138>Yeah...
12:15<Yorick>Ooh...you have a very very big glove box
12:15<@peter1138>It's a tiny car with a 2.7m glove box :D
12:16-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcf89.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:18<SpComb>a glove box on wheels
12:19<Prof_Frink>peter1138 is a glove.
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12:26<XeryusTC>how does one stop trains turning around in yapp blocks?
12:27<XeryusTC>i've set wait_for_pbs_path to 255 but it still doesnt work
12:28<Ammler>if zephyris would allow it, you should really include his trams to the openttd.grf
12:28<Ammler>the question for how to enable trams is that common :-)
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12:39<@Rubidium>and as a result get flamed by mb because it changes the "defaults"?
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12:58<Fennec>zomg defaults
12:59<Ammler>Rubidium: which defaults?
12:59<Ammler>there aren't any default trams, which you can change
13:00<Vikthor>Since when is MB part of development team with so powerful voice regarding design issues?
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13:00<Ammler>Vikthor: he is more a experienced guy who as always right ;-)
13:01<Ammler>you do also include graphics for tram tracks...
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13:04<@Rubidium>Ammler: but tram tracks don't replace vehicle statistics
13:04<@Rubidium>and adding trams does that
13:04<Ammler>including them with a patch setting?
13:05<@Rubidium>still breaks other newgrfs
13:05<Ammler>well, that is the same
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13:05<@peter1138>Pom te pom.
13:05<@peter1138>What's up?
13:05<@peter1138>MB is right, everyone should use GRM (which he doesn't yet)
13:06<@peter1138>(Or engine multiple engine sets :D)
13:06<Ammler>does TTDP also coding something in this direction?
13:07<SpComb>moo
13:07<@peter1138>TTDP invented GRM...
13:07<@Rubidium>Ammler: ofcoure, because we stole the multiple engine patch from TTDP as we did with everything else ;)
13:07<@peter1138>It even invented forced GRM, but that has to be disabled because not enough sets use it.
13:09<Kloopy>Hi guys... we're at a huge LAN party in the UK here (i34)...
13:09<Kloopy>We're getting desync errors with the latest nightly.
13:09<Kloopy>And idea why?
13:09<Ammler>Rubidium: did you just forgot the tramset in 0.6.2 or was there another reason for not including anymore?
13:09<Kloopy>Noone is using auto replace atm.
13:09<@Rubidium>Kloopy: because you use autoreplace
13:09-!-Reemo [Dr_Jekyll@p57B0C867.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:09<@Rubidium>Kloopy: or autorenew
13:09<Brianetta>Why does OpenTTD override all my diff_custom?
13:09<Kloopy>Yeah, I think everyone has auto renew on by default.
13:10<Brianetta>I edit the config, start the server, and it#'s all wrong... *and* it writes that wrongness back into my config
13:10<@Rubidium>Brianetta: because diff_level != 3
13:10<Brianetta>When did this start?
13:10<Kloopy>Is there any way to fix this savegame and start again or must we fall back to a proper release of the game?
13:10<@Rubidium>Brianetta: long long ago
13:10<Brianetta>Why didn't it ever affect me until today?
13:10<Brianetta>My server's quite a long-lived one
13:10<@Rubidium>because you had set diff_level == 3?
13:11<@Rubidium>or because you didn't notice
13:11<Kloopy>Rubidium: We've only played for 3 game years... no vehicles have been auto replaced. :/
13:11<Brianetta>Oh, I'd have noticed breakdowns
13:11<Brianetta>It makes my blood boil when vehicles break down
13:11<@Rubidium>Brianetta: at least 0.5.3 had the same behaviour
13:11<Brianetta>Weird.
13:12<Ammler>Brianetta: your server had breakdowns on as I was there
13:12<Brianetta>Only recently.
13:12<Ammler>nah, long time ago, I was there last time
13:12<Brianetta>This last game; I reset my company rather than continue to play.
13:12<@Rubidium>Kloopy: then I've got no idea
13:13<Kloopy>:(
13:14<Kloopy>Well then there's a patch that's introduced something that isn't MP safe. :((
13:14<Kloopy>We're not using any grfs.
13:16<Fennec>so. someone point me at instructions on how to play with these fancy new signalling-pathfinder-thingies?
13:16<Fennec>:)
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13:32<Ammler>big assert output: http://paste.openttd.org/44141
13:33<Ammler>also clients crashed this time...
13:33<SpComb>my template is bigger than yours
13:34<SpComb>dissing C++ is actually a pretty fun hobby
13:34<@Rubidium>Ammler: make sure it is still reproducable in HEAD and then file a YAPP bugreport
13:35<Ammler>Rubidium: I fear, we can't reproduce this one
13:35<@Rubidium>then it can't be fixed either
13:35<Fennec>'reproducing bugs' is a funny term.
13:35<Fennec>be fruitful, little bugs, and multiply!
13:36<hylje>serves you right for using templates
13:36*Rubidium happily continues to dislike python
13:37*Fennec does Perl at work.
13:37<@peter1138>If you can't reproduce it how do we know if we've fixed it, heh...
13:37<Ammler>:-)
13:38<hylje>magic?=
13:38<Ammler>peter1138: just trust us :P
13:38-!-ben_goodger [~ben@host81-153-29-228.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
13:39*Rubidium trusts Ammler in the case that the assertion has been solved. If that does not seem to be the case he'll have lost his trustworthiness forever.
13:40<Ammler>nah
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13:56<Yorick>Kloopy: how many desyncs have you had?
13:56<Yorick>argh
13:56<Yorick>scrolls
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14:16-!-adaran [~adaran@e180072139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
14:17<adaran>hello everyone
14:25<Yorick>hello
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15:00<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14038 /trunk/src/ (player_base.h players.cpp): -Fix [FS#2211] (r13731): company limit was not properly enforced for CMD_PLAYER_CTRL.
15:05-!-Vemarkis [Vemarkis@a88-114-199-164.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
15:06<Vemarkis>Is it normal that telling a tram to turn back causes it to start doing teleport looping on the next curve it reaches?
15:07<Vemarkis>and telling to turn back again won't fix it, and it can't find a depot in that state :d
15:08<Vemarkis>and stopping and starting again just makes it do that weird teleport looping again..
15:22<Kloopy>Yorick, once it started it just kept happening.
15:22<Kloopy>Every real life 2 minutes or so after people rejoined.
15:26<SpComb>Vemarkis: crash it?
15:26<SpComb>or I guess that's not possible with trams
15:29-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
15:29-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
15:29<Vemarkis>Oh well, seems no devs are around :(
15:29<SpComb>Bjarni!
15:30<@Bjarni>hello people
15:30<@Bjarni><Vemarkis> Oh well, seems no devs are around :( <-- I'm here so you are lying
15:30*Bjarni gives Vemarkis -10 trust points
15:30<Vemarkis>Well you just joined!
15:30<Vemarkis>I encountered a funny bug with trams!
15:30<@Bjarni>I joined before you gave that statement
15:31*SpComb aquires the #openttd mutex
15:31*SpComb goes to sleep
15:31<Vemarkis>Telling one to turn around makes it do teleporting loops on the next curve it reaches.
15:31<Vemarkis>and you can't get it out of that state
15:31<@Bjarni>heh
15:32<Vemarkis>You can see it for yourself if you join Brianetta's server..
15:32<@Bjarni>I wouldn't mind being able to make teleporting loops in real life
15:32<Brianetta>Vemarkis: You can make them turn around anywhere
15:33<Vemarkis>Yes well, look at my road vehicle 10 then
15:34<Vemarkis>its doing teleport loop on this 1 square
15:34<ln>Bjarni: do you live in a closet if you have never heard of either V for Vendetta or The Dark Knight?
15:37<Vemarkis>and it reached that curve ages after I told it to turn around
15:37<Vemarkis>which it didn't do..
15:37<Vemarkis>and then it reached the curve and attempted the turn around then, and started doing that teleport loop
15:38*Bjarni slaps ln
15:39<@Bjarni>I don't live in a closet and I don't deal with people in closets either
15:39<ln>ok, good
15:39<Vemarkis>man would I love something the DeleteVeh cheat in TTDP now..
15:39<Vemarkis>like the*
15:40<@Bjarni>but I still don't know anything about either V for Vendetta or The Dark Knight
15:41<ln>Bjarni: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1273140992/tt0468569 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/
15:41*Bjarni will take a look later
15:41<@Bjarni>right now I'm looking at train schedules
15:42<@Bjarni>or more specifically: train crew lists
15:43<ln>i guess there must be better dating sites available even in denmark.
15:45<ln>the quality of my so-called jokes seems to have gone down by 33%.
15:46-!-fmauNekAway is now known as fmauNeko
15:46<fmauNeko>Back from Italy :)
15:47-!-Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
15:47<ln>no away nicks, please
15:48-!-Roujin [~Roujin@p54970474.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
15:48<Roujin>evening
15:48<Wolf01>hi
15:52<Forked>heya
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15:59<Wolf01>'night
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16:08<Roujin>has the mercurial repository of cargodest changed?
16:08<Roujin>can't reach it anymore
16:09-!-Reemo [Dr_Jekyll@p57B0D066.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
16:09<@peter1138>That's because my PC isn't a 24/7 server :D
16:09<@peter1138>Celestar's galasomething link might still work.
16:09<Roujin>http://galadriel.td.mw.tum.de:8000/ <-- this? blank page
16:10*Rubidium guesses his hg server got OOMed
16:10<@peter1138>Then it's all offline at the moment :)
16:10<@Rubidium>the server itself isn't offline
16:11<@peter1138>I meant all the previously 'published' hg repos.
16:14<@peter1138>Hmm, there are a lot of [OTTD] tagged screenshot threads...
16:14<@Rubidium>even cargopacket tagged screenshot threads
16:16<@peter1138>Hmm, didn't prissi say destinations could not be done after cargopackets were introduced...
16:17<@Rubidium>IIRC it was more that he wouldn't write it anymore
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17:56<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14039 /trunk/src/ (train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp):
17:56<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2217]: reversing an overlength train at a station would try to find a
17:56<CIA-5>OpenTTD: route out and sometimes reset the unload counter making it wait 2.5 years before
17:56<CIA-5>OpenTTD: departing instead of waiting until the train would actually leave the station
17:56<CIA-5>OpenTTD: (michi_cc)
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18:14<Dred_furst`>Where has the openttd server status image site gone?
18:14-!-grumbel [~grumbel@i577AE09B.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
18:20<@Rubidium>Dred_furst`: you make no sense to me
18:20<Dred_furst`>Nevermind I found it
18:21<Dred_furst`>http://dan-masek.eu/ottd/
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18:39<DJNekkid>!password
18:39-!-DJNekkid was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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18:39<DJNekkid>sry :)
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18:41<ln>England prevails!
18:42<doc|work>http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=1135&src=rt
18:42<Prof_Frink>ln: Hmm? We're 0-0, needing 197 to win
18:43<ln>Prof_Frink: Oh, just finished watching V for Vendetta.
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19:42<Sacro>sigh
19:42<Sacro>"Advanced signals can be passed from the backside"
19:42<Sacro>apart from the sniggeryness of reading "backside"
19:43<Sacro>near enough all signals can be passed from the back
19:43<Sacro>unless it is showing red
19:43<Sacro>you mean the front side
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19:44<Sacro>back = bit with lights
19:44<Sacro>front = bit that points into the next block
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19:44<Sacro>!seen Bjarni
19:44<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
19:44<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 hours, 2 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Bjarni> or more specifically: train crew lists
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20:02<fmauNeko>somebody could get grfcodec working on linux x86_64 ?
20:04<Sacro>fmauNeko: yes
20:04<Fennec>if you give it the right compile flags it might be convinced to work
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20:05<Fennec>-m32 in particular
20:05<Fennec>if I recall correctly
20:05<fmauNeko>hmm
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20:10<fmauNeko>Fennec: thx ;)
20:18<Fennec>did it work? :)
20:18<fmauNeko>yeah :)
20:18*Fennec watched an x86-64 box and did school assignments on it from time to time
20:19<Fennec>including the kind with pre-provided static libraries :P
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>[10.08.2008 17:49] * peter1138 has discovered that 2.7m long planks of wood fit in his car... if I open the glove box. <- in germany, cargo can stick 1m out of the back of the car
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20:35*fmauNeko was worndering if a grf file would be enough to add a button in a toolbar :p
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>yay, another hornet...
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>their nest is like 3m from my window
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21:29<fmauNeko>Makefile:81: *** multiple target patterns. Stop.
21:29<fmauNeko>:'(
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22:07<@Belugas_Gone>[20:35] * fmauNeko was worndering if a grf file would be enough to add a button in a toolbar :p <--- it's not the job of grfs to add buttons to the game
22:07<@Belugas_Gone>n fact, grfs cannot do that
22:08<fmauNeko>yeah :D
22:08<fmauNeko>i'm trying to patch the code :p
22:08<@Belugas_Gone>which on? grfcodec's or ottd's
22:08<@Belugas_Gone>and for what purpose?
22:09<Phantasm>http://www.videosift.com/video/Worlds-first-pornographic-cartoon-Ever-Ready-Horton
22:11<fmauNeko>Belugas_Gone: ottd, and i'm trying to make highways
22:14<@Belugas_Gone>good luck. first, what is the difference (in your mind) with current (one-way) roads?
22:15<fmauNeko>the selection of line numbers
22:17<@Belugas_Gone>hu?
22:18<@Belugas_Gone>---read as ---- what the hell are you talking about
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22:34-!-fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 11 00:00:44 2008