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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-12

---Logopened Tue Aug 12 00:00:23 2008
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01:45<@peter1138>Do I need 2^6 sprites for 'underlay' ?
01:53<@peter1138>Hmm, probably not.
01:54<@peter1138>6 plain pieces, 1 for crossing, 4 for the slopes, then the usual 5 for junctions.
01:55<@peter1138>I reckon
01:55*peter1138 gets the gimp out
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02:36<Forked>yay for disk failure \o/
02:38<hylje>damn, almost got rid of you :-(
02:38<Forked>huh? raid powered :p
02:39<hylje>i knew my cunning plan wasn't thought out properly
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04:01<Mchl>hello
04:03<ln>http://vaunut.org/sivukuvat/50984.jpg
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04:06<Mchl>that's what happens when people think trains can stop in an instant
04:07<De_Ghost>what u mean
04:07<De_Ghost>trains only stop on signals
04:07<Noldo>ihan :D
04:07<De_Ghost>it runs through 2 truck without slowing down in ottd
04:11<@peter1138>POM TE POM
04:12<Forked>De_Ghost: or two buses..
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04:41<Wolf01>hello
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04:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14050 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_airport.cpp ai_airport.hpp ai_airport.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Add: added AIAirport::GetNumHangers() (Yexo)
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05:02<SmatZ>peter1138: are "Level crossing overlay" to be drawn over normal X/Y road sprite?
05:03<SmatZ>it is nice it will solve those not very crossings when you combine road + rail set
05:03<SmatZ>maybe it would be nice if roadset (or railset) could define special crossing sprites for specific roadset+railset combination
05:04<SmatZ>maybe identified by Label, maybe by GRF ID ...
05:04<SmatZ>because it could look better
05:05<SmatZ>like, some roadsets use barriers, some don't... and leaving definition if this on railset could make roadsets authors sad
05:06<SmatZ>another two ideas: sloped horizontal/vertical rails (done in such a way trains don't slow down too much but don't get speed bonus over normal sloped track either)
05:07<SmatZ>and partial snow / desert sprites
05:07<SmatZ>that's all I got over night and so...
05:07<SmatZ>it would be always nice to have a fallback when sprites are not available
05:07<SmatZ>like, generate those sprites in runtime
05:07<SmatZ>but it makes game slower...
05:08<SmatZ>one question (for me) was, if level crossings should use non-ground sprites for barriers and so...
05:08<SmatZ>not that it is important, maybe for one-way road at crossings
05:08<SmatZ>and probably would cause more problems than it could bring advantages
05:09<SmatZ>sorry if all of this has been discussed before, I am not around nowadays
05:19<Doorslammer>SURPRISE BADGER!
05:19<Forked>mushroom mushroom
05:29<@peter1138>SmatZ: sorry, was away.
05:30<@peter1138>SmatZ, the overlay will be drawn on top of designated road crossing sprites, and they will have the barrier graphics separated.
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05:43<@peter1138>Hm.
05:44<@peter1138>I wonder if we could include half-height/double length slopes.
05:44<Wolf01>:O
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05:48<Noldo>peter1138: why?
05:51<Wolf01>uhm, I think I must redraw again all the brickland tiles
05:51<Wolf01>this time 16x16
05:52<Wolf01>and doubling the height of every step
05:54<Noldo>oh?
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06:00<SmatZ>peter1138: sounds interesting... would those two pieces have to be built at once?
06:01<SmatZ>when you add a rail piece and it changes slope of surrounding rail, it may look strange... even more when there is a train on that modified trackbit :)
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06:11<SmatZ>peter1138: sorry for delay, lunch time here :)
06:14-!-Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd
06:16<SmatZ>anyway, I am not here :) bye
06:16<@peter1138>It will have to be on foundations
06:17<@peter1138>Just trying to think of things that just can't do at the moment, heh...
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06:28<Wolf01>there's something we can view?
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07:16<@peter1138>Nope.
07:16<@peter1138>Well, a draft spec.
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07:21<DJNekkid>how do i start openttd in some kind of debug mode?
07:21<@Rubidium>what kind of debug mode do you expect?
07:22<DJNekkid>i dunno, some kind where i can make some kind of report
07:22<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14051 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp gfx_func.h network/network_chat_gui.cpp): -Codechange: enumify the DrawString buffer length.
07:22<DJNekkid>i get a crash in yapf/yapp
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07:22<@Rubidium>what version are you playing with?
07:23<DJNekkid>semirecent nighly
07:23<DJNekkid>14037
07:23<@Rubidium>oh... then better update first to HEAD (not nightly) because it's likely already solved
07:23<DJNekkid>i can update and see if the crash still occour
07:25<DJNekkid>still happens in 14041
07:25<DJNekkid>http://83.243.128.249/ottd/bug.png
07:26<@Rubidium>as I said "HEAD (not nightly)"
07:26<DJNekkid>what is head?
07:26<DJNekkid>as in 0.6's ?
07:26<@Rubidium>no it's always latest trunk
07:26<DJNekkid>ahh ...
07:26<DJNekkid>sry
07:27<@Rubidium>not read the svn manual I presume ;)
07:27<DJNekkid>would require me to make my own build i presume?
07:27<DJNekkid>nope, i heavent :)
07:27<@Rubidium>likely yes
07:28<@Rubidium>(assuming you don't run a recent linux)
07:28<DJNekkid>assumeing i run winxp ;)
07:28<DJNekkid>buildottd should do that for i i hope
07:29<planetmaker>Ammler: http://www.openttdcoop.org/files/pm/patches/README.txt <-- I don't have a newgrf trunk checkout here. Maybe you can commit that readme, please?
07:32<DJNekkid>hmm, a purged buildottd wont compile ...
07:33<DJNekkid>i'll try to do it manually with msys
07:33<@Rubidium>anyhow, it's likely fixed in r14048
07:34<DJNekkid>oki :)
07:34<DJNekkid>i'll check it out
07:34<DJNekkid>if msys will work for me :)
07:37<Sacro>who committed YAPP?
07:37<Sacro>as I want to query the right click text
07:38<@peter1138>Should we do all tracks as ground, ballast, track, or should we do ground, ballast+track on some occasions?
07:38<Sacro>peter1138: not all track has ballast
07:38<@peter1138>It does in TTD.
07:39-!-Yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
07:41<Sacro>"One way signals cannot be passed from the backside"
07:41<Sacro>this is not true
07:41<Sacro>they cannot be passed from the front side
07:41<Sacro>but they can be passed from the back when the signal is green
07:42<hylje>who the hell defined signal backside as the direction the signal shows its lights to
07:42<Sacro>hylje: it isn't
07:43<Sacro>the front points into the next signal block
07:43<Sacro>the back points into the one to the rear
07:43<Yorick>no, the front points to the train that is supposed to be waiting at the signal
07:43<Sacro>to be honest, you really shouldn't use front/back
07:43<Sacro>you should use in advance/in rear
07:45<Yorick>the one way signal should have another sprite
07:45<Yorick>the same as a 2-way signal, but the pole pointing to the signal block with a no-entry signal
07:54<@peter1138>"in rear" does not pass my grammar sanity checks. Maybe if you put it in a full sentence...
07:55<Ammler>Rubidium: thank you for new chat limit :-9
07:55<Yorick>Ammler: it is actually 24 shorter than it was before
07:55<Kloopy>If I have found a desync problem for multiplayer games based on the nightly from two nights ago... how do I try and find out why it's desynced? The game is only 3 years into play.
07:56<Yorick>Kloopy: is it reproducable?
07:56<Kloopy>When we load the save game, it happens again, yes.
07:56<Ammler>Yorick: I play with trunk, so my "before" was limited :-)
07:56<@Rubidium>Ammler: it's going to be a little shorter though again
07:56<Yorick>Ammler: before the limit was limited ;)
07:56<Yorick>Rubidium: why, if I may ask?
07:57<Yorick>Kloopy: could you send me that save?
07:57<@Rubidium>because I don't want to make the draw string buffers longer
07:57<@Rubidium>and because the current limit doesn't even fit in the chat box
07:57<Ammler>Rubidium: as long as it is around double, it should be fine...
07:57<@Rubidium>so the message gets completely ignored in the GUI
07:57<Yorick>Rubidium: chat boxes have the nice habit of scrolling horizontally
07:57<Kloopy>Sure, Yorick. Where to?
07:57<Yorick>true :)
07:57<Kloopy>I'll have to do it after work though.
07:57<Yorick>Kloopy: senduit.com
07:58<@Rubidium>Yorick: chat box being the place where the chat messages will be shown
07:58<Kloopy>I forgot I'm at work :/
07:58<Yorick>Rubidium: true
07:58<@Rubidium>Kloopy: are you using autoreplace/autorenew?
07:58<@Rubidium>if so, it's likely a known bug caused by autoreplace crappiness
07:58<Kloopy>Rubidium: Noone was using autoreplace, but autorenew was on, but as it was only 3 years into the game, no vehicles were "old" and being replaced.
07:58<Yorick>Kloopy: do you have the save?
07:59<Kloopy>I do at home, Yorick... unfortunately I can't get at it from here at work. :/
07:59<Yorick>:(
08:01<Yorick>Koopy: does it use any grfs?
08:01*Yorick wonders what happened to the blog
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08:10<Kloopy>Yorick: sorry, no it doesn't use grfs.
08:10<Kloopy>Just vanilla nightly from 2 nights ago now.
08:11<Yorick>ok
08:11<Yorick>any chance to send the save today?
08:11<Kloopy>Yeah, I'm asking all the other players if they saved a copy.
08:11<Kloopy>IF they do I'll get you that... if not it will be about 6pm when I get home.
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08:19<Yorick>reproducable desyncs without grfs are the easiest to debug, I think :)
08:23<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14052 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make the size of the chat message "box" configurable and increase the default size slightly so it can hold the longest chat messages.
08:24<@peter1138>Configurable? How silly.
08:24<@Rubidium>just not runtime configurable ;)
08:25<@Rubidium>but the configurable is merely to easily make it small enough to fit on low resolution screens ;)
08:28<Yorick>I can't delete files in flyspray
08:28<Yorick>is that a bug?
08:28-!-KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738c8f9.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
08:29<@Rubidium>you don't have the permissions to do that
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08:30-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
08:30<Yorick>so I can't delete files I added myself, but can edit comments and add new ones to them?
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08:30<@Rubidium>yes
08:31<Yorick>"modify own tasks:on" <-- I can't do that...
08:31<@Rubidium> -> bugs.flyspray.org
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08:35<Yorick>what version of flyspray do you have?
08:36<@Rubidium>the latest tagged one
08:36<Yorick>1.0.0?
08:37<@Rubidium>they didn't tag that one
08:38<Yorick>0.9.9.5?
08:39<@Rubidium>yup
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08:40<Yorick>bug submitted :)
08:50<planetmaker>you should consider to submit bug reports instead of bugs :D
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08:57<Yorick>I fixed the FS#1890 patch alignments :)
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09:04<ln>http://www.hs.fi/kuvakoosteet/maailmankuvia/isokuva/1135238499708
09:11<@peter1138>Hm
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09:23*Brianetta is reading the YAPF code
09:23<Brianetta>Frankly, I don't think I know enough of the terminology yet to understand this.
09:24<Yorick>Brianetta: what do you want to do with the YAPF code?
09:25<Brianetta>Just considering playing with it
09:25<Brianetta>I'd like to make trains reserve more than one consecutive path
09:26<Brianetta>If I can demonstrate that, then it'd be possible for somebody to make an order modifier that'l do that
09:26<@peter1138>michi_cc!
09:26<Yorick>I don't know what use that'd ave
09:26<Brianetta>Yorick: It means you coul dhave an express train
09:27<@peter1138>Express trains that have express status :D
09:27<Brianetta>If your trains reserve longer paths when full, the empty trains (which won't lose cargo value by being delayed) will give way more
09:27<Yorick>good idea :)
09:27<Brianetta>Also, passenger trains could reserve longer paths than freight, causing freight to wait more
09:27<@peter1138>Also, I need to do the manual control patch again!
09:27<Brianetta>since passengers fall off steeply on the time/payment graph
09:28<Brianetta>Yes!
09:28<Brianetta>And longer paths means we'll be able to see green signals ahead!
09:28<Brianetta>Right now they turn green with half a tile's warning
09:28<Brianetta>which is naff all use
09:28<Brianetta>OK for game trains which have lengthy stopping distances, except for magic brakes at signals.
09:29<+michi_cc>Brianetta: Eddi made a experimental approach signal patch, maybe you want to look at http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/advance3.diff
09:29<Brianetta>Actually, trains should just reserve the next section whilst riding the current one, if possible.
09:30<Brianetta>michi_cc: Woah, did you just link me to what I was typing about?
09:30<Brianetta>*Before* I pressed enter?
09:30<+michi_cc>Brianetta: if you just want the extend reservation code look here: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/yapp/presignal_draft.patch
09:30-!-Osai^zZz is now known as Osai
09:31<+michi_cc>the path by Eddi is a start to implement http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=38871
09:31<Kloopy>It all depends on the length of the section, Brianetta... I've seen people with a massive unsignalled branch track because just one train uses the branch to get to an industry.... When the train is full and coming abck towards the main track, you don't want it taking 1 minute to get to the junction and already having a reservation through it.
09:31<Brianetta>Kloopy: Such a track could stand to have one signal half way down it
09:31<Kloopy>I agree.
09:32<Sacro>well you could have 3 or 4 aspect signals
09:32<Sacro>4 aspects reserve a longer route
09:32<Brianetta>I'm not sure what advantage advance signals have right now
09:32<Brianetta>It's certainly not what I was thinking of
09:32<Sacro>Brianetta: train could slow down at an advance
09:32<Brianetta>Sacro: It can't though
09:32<Sacro>and then hopefully it'd clear straight through
09:32<Sacro>like the old yellowsignals patch by richk
09:32<Brianetta>The signal remains red until a path is reserved beyond it
09:33<Brianetta>At the moment, in stock OpenTTD, trains get half a tile's warning of a red turning green, but since they can stop in half a tile when at a signal, that's no problem.
09:34<+michi_cc>Brianetta: if you just want the code for extending the train reservation by another signal, that should be easily extractable from my path. then it "just" needs an gui
09:34<Brianetta>Having it change colour when the train passes an advance signal is weird; the advance signal fails to indicate the state of the next signal.
09:34<Sacro>so you'd need it show show green/green
09:34<Sacro>or yellow/red
09:34<Brianetta>michi_cc: Seems like you've done all the work I could have done
09:35<Brianetta>A pre-signal could be fun if the train has already reserved extra track ahead
09:35<Brianetta>well, an advance signal
09:36<planetmaker>basically, though, the concept of the advance signals just increases train separation - or is there something which I miss?
09:37<Brianetta>planetmaker: There's something you miss.
09:37<planetmaker>please enlighten me :)
09:37<Brianetta>They cause a path to be reserved beyond the next advanced signal
09:37<Brianetta>Have you used YAPF advanced signals?
09:38<planetmaker>well, yes. yapp, you mean, yes?
09:38<Brianetta>no, I mean yapf
09:38<Brianetta>with an f
09:38<Brianetta>but yes
09:38<planetmaker>well, ... pre-, combo- and exit, of course :)
09:38<Brianetta>advanced
09:38<Brianetta>was called yapp, sure
09:38<Brianetta>but nbot in the game itself (:
09:39<planetmaker>:)
09:39<Brianetta>In the game, you have to enable yapf, and then you can use advanced signals.
09:39<Brianetta>OK, these advanced signals reserve a path for your train.
09:39<Brianetta>When your train reaches one, it attempts to find a path to the one after it.
09:39<Brianetta>If it can't, it waits.
09:39<planetmaker>well, I did use the PBS signals, if that's your question :)
09:40<Brianetta>An advance signal (not the lack of a d at the end)
09:40<Brianetta>will cause the train to attempt to reserve that path immediately, before reaching the real signal.
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09:41<planetmaker>right. so a signal to tell the train to reserve further track beyond a 2nd signal further down its path.
09:41<Brianetta>yes
09:41<Brianetta>My idea is similar but distinct
09:41<planetmaker>that's something which I haven't seen in OpenTTD so far.
09:41<Brianetta>My idea was to have an order marked as "express"
09:42<Brianetta>While on this order, a train would always attempt to reserve the extra, extended path
09:42<planetmaker>which reserves two signal distances... nice idea :)
09:42<Brianetta>yes
09:42<Brianetta>or, if we were to take this to extremes, an order could have a number associated with it
09:43<Brianetta>that number being how many consecutive reservations it should try to make
09:43<planetmaker>true :)
09:43<Brianetta>so you could set it to 50, and it'd pretty much get a clear run to the other side of the map, holding up any train that hadn't already got in front.
09:43-!-thgergo [~thgergo@members.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
09:43<Brianetta>Except on busy track; it'd only reserve as far as it could.
09:43<planetmaker>hehe :)
09:44<Brianetta>Personally, I'd love to do this. Then my expensive streamliner / deltic / other expensive-to-run express could just fly past, and actually make some money.
09:44<planetmaker>sure, no reservation through other trains...
09:44<planetmaker>it might open interesting solutions to double-tracked lines :)
09:45<Brianetta>Imagine, an express train set to 3 reserved paths, building up a clear path in front of it
09:45<Brianetta>As trains pull into stations, they get made to wait there until the express thunders past (:
09:45<planetmaker>:)
09:46<Sacro>yeah
09:46<@peter1138>I'm so excited.
09:46<@peter1138>I just can't hide it.
09:46<Sacro>en route to the tt-meet I was stopped in a station and 2 expresses went past
09:46<Sacro>at ewell east i think
09:46<Sacro>or was it cheam...
09:48-!-Yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
09:51<Brianetta>peter1138: Were you just singing, or expressing a sentiment?
09:58<@peter1138>Yes.
09:58<Brianetta>Damned logic
09:58<Brianetta>OK
09:58<Brianetta>What can't you hide?
09:59-!-Yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:59<lobster>any OTTD OSX users here?
10:00<ln>sort of
10:01<Brianetta>I use both, but not together.
10:01<Brianetta>Yet.
10:01<Brianetta>It's Helen's iBook; she's only recently showed any interest
10:01<ln>Brianetta: and only that has stopped you from installing it anyway?
10:01<Brianetta>ln: It's not my iBook
10:02-!-ben_goodger [~ben@host81-153-29-228.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
10:03<ln>I use both, but not very often.
10:04<planetmaker>lobster: what's your issue?
10:04<lobster>nightlies don't work under OS X 10.5.4
10:05<+glx>only intel ones
10:05<+glx>apple needs to fix its tools
10:05<planetmaker>hm... cannot talk about Leopard. I still own Tiger :)
10:05<lobster>hmmm, quite
10:06<lobster>i have 10.5.4 on both my machines
10:06<+glx>but you can use the ppc versions
10:06<lobster>oddly enough, the old PPC nightlies did work
10:06<lobster>Rosetta handled them rather nicely
10:06<planetmaker>lol, that's peculiar :)
10:06-!-Tino|R152 [~tino@52N.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
10:07<+glx>osx binaries works on intel 10.5 only if built on OSX
10:07<+glx>cross compilation don't work
10:07<lobster>hmm, in that case i have to compile it myselfd
10:07<lobster>*myself
10:07<@peter1138>I doubt Apple are too interested in fixing it.
10:10<@Rubidium>Apple just plainly sucks
10:11<lobster>people that state ridiculous things like that really do suck more
10:12<lobster>anyway, 0.6.2 runs rather fine, so i'll give that a go for the time being
10:12<hylje>defensive eh?
10:12-!-Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@ndb.demon.nl] has joined #openttd
10:12<@Rubidium>lobster: releasing something that obviously doesn't work sucks
10:12<hylje>apple's priorities are misplaced when it comes to OpenTTD developers
10:12<lobster>only when random and useless statements are thrown in... OTTD still isn't
10:12<ln>is it Steve's fault if cross compilation doesn't work?
10:12<lobster>what it's used to be with the MiniIN anyway
10:12<@Rubidium>lobster: i.e. one cannot compile hello world for apple on anything but apple
10:13<lobster>how rare
10:13<ln>Rubidium: have you tried?
10:13<lobster>because i have used Linux-compiled software
10:13<lobster>even in 10.5
10:13<lobster>most of my friends that program audio software use Linux
10:13<@Rubidium>lobster: intel 10.5 is known to not be able to run a hello world binary compiled on linux
10:14<lobster>have you ever considered that a fault of you, your settings, and not Apple?
10:14<lobster>anyway, i don't feel like this discussion right now, anyway
10:14<@Rubidium>lobster: uhm... I'm talking about multiple independent entities here, not "just" me
10:14<lobster>which was twice "anyway"
10:14<lobster>ridiculous amount
10:15<lobster>ah yes, you have friends that *all* think JUST the same way
10:15<lobster>sorry i forgot about that
10:15*lobster is off to play some OTTD now
10:15<@Rubidium>lobster: I'm talking about people that I do not know here, not 'just' friends
10:17<@Rubidium>not to mention that the tech support of Apple is sucky at best; need to send a laptop in for 3 times before they get a KNOWN and pretty well documented problem fixed
10:17<@Rubidium>not even talking about the outrageous pricing policies they have
10:18<ln>so let's choose Acer and Vista.
10:19<@Rubidium>price in euros == price in dollars * 1.5, whereas a dollar is worth 0.7 euro, which means the stuff is twice as expensive in Europe than in the US
10:19<hylje>generally stuff is also priced higher around here
10:20<@peter1138>But Apple didn't intend for the SDK to be used for cross-compiling.
10:20<@peter1138>It's all hidden away in XCode, isn't it?
10:21<ln>Rubidium: did you take into account that unitedstatesians do not have VAT on their price tags, while europeans do?
10:21<@Rubidium>hmm... not to mention that using some APIs makes it impossible for a binary to be compiles for OSX 10.5 and 10.3 at the same time
10:21<@Rubidium>ln: 5-7% doesn't really make a difference
10:21<Brianetta>Rubidium: $ == £, too
10:22<ln>Rubidium: VAT in europe is like between 19% and 25%.
10:22<SpComb>but most hardware is cheaper in the UK than in e.g. Finland?
10:22-!-a1270 [~Cheese@24-117-51-112.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd
10:22<Brianetta>Only 'cause Finland is (a) further from the US, and (b) speaks Finnish
10:22<SpComb>($ == $ == £) && (€ != £)
10:25-!-Tekky [~chatzilla@p5493BF76.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:28-!-SquireJames [SquireJame@72.24.41.5] has joined #openttd
10:28<SquireJames>Hello all
10:29<SquireJames>small OTTD question:-
10:29<SquireJames>In order for a new GRF set not to conflict with vehicle IDs from another set (a TTD based set, hence limited to the old IDs) what would the first ID be?
10:30<SquireJames>According to GRF maker the last ID is 74, so would 75 be the start of blank spaces?
10:32<dih>Rubidium: i must say - those chat message related commits are awsome ;-)
10:34<SquireJames>any ideas folks?
10:34<hylje>who told you we have any ideas?
10:35<dih>hylje: go and hide in your dark whole again :-P
10:35*dih hugs hylje
10:35<SquireJames>hehe, well, assume the OTTD IRC might be the best place to ask such things
10:35<SquireJames>since TTDPatch doesn't support such things
10:35*hylje takes his pony and rides to the horizon
10:35<dih>lol
10:36<dih>hylje: ya'r funne'
10:36<+glx>SquireJames: just try ;)
10:36<SquireJames>wilco :)
10:37<+glx>but peter1138 should know better
10:38<SquireJames>Just part of my little project see, i'm trying to add some 19th Century stock to UKRS
10:38<Tekky>Maybe the "Development" forum is also a good place to ask such questions, if nobody in IRC knows an answer.
10:38<SquireJames>So i don't want to stomp all over thats already there (yet)
10:38<@peter1138>SquireJames, if multiple engine sets is enabled, no ID will conflict.
10:38<SquireJames>nice :)
10:38<SquireJames>that was my idea
10:38<@peter1138>If it's not, then yes, start from the last ID.
10:39<@peter1138>+1
10:39<SquireJames>SO, okays, its a "feel free to start at ID 1" then
10:39<@peter1138>Yup. It will need OTTD either way... :)
10:41<Tekky>By the way, is all programming in TTDPatch done in assembler, hacking the original executable file?
10:41<@Rubidium>Tekky: no
10:41<@Rubidium>though the amount of C is fairly small
10:41<dih>dont they change the data that is loaded into memory?
10:42<hylje>runtime patching!!
10:42<dih>aye
10:42<Tekky>ah
10:42*SquireJames realises that before attempting to code his new engine, drawing it might be wise
10:42<dih>cute
10:48<Tekky>I don't quite understand why most new features for TTD are first introduced in TTDPatch and then taken over in OpenTTD. For example, this seems the case with all development of NewGRFs? Development in OpenTTD should be easier than in TTDPatch and I also don't have the impression that the OpenTTD developers are lazy. ;-) Therefore, I don't understand why TTDPatch has the leading role instead...
10:48<Tekky>...of OpenTTD? Is this maybe due to TTDPatch being around for longer?
10:48-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
10:49<@peter1138>We've been playing catch up for a long time.
10:50<SquireJames>In a TTD analogy, TTDPatch is a freight train thats ahead of the express, but moving slower, so eventually the express will pass it
10:50<SquireJames>the express being OTTD naturally
10:51<Tekky>I hope OpenTTD will overtake TTDPatch some day. :-) Or have we maybe already done so with the inclusion of YAPP in trunk? I think TTDPatch already has something similar?
10:53<Vikthor>Tekky: Yes TTDPatch has PBS for quite some time now, and even a user programable signals
10:53<@Rubidium>it depends one the front you want to compare
10:54<@Rubidium>but OTTD's more like: if we like a feature, we will have it but implemented properly
10:54<@Rubidium>furthermore OTTD has many small unnoticable changes w.r.t. TTD(Patch)
10:55<@Rubidium>like we can have multiple signal types at the same tile and AFAICT TTDP doesn't have that
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10:55<Tekky>I guess OpenTTD has fixed many bugs in the original game. But TTDPatch also has bugifxes of the original game, hasn't it?
10:55<@Rubidium>Tekky: yes
10:56<Tekky>you can several different signal types on the same tile in OpenTTD? Is that already possible? Or are you merely saying that we could change the map array whereas this wouldn't be possible in TTDPatch?
10:56-!-grumbel [~grumbel@i577BAD3C.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
10:57<@Rubidium>Tekky: in OpenTTD you can do that and as far as I am aware you can't in TTDPatch
10:58<Tekky>How can you do that in OpenTTD? With the signal GUI? Or Control-Clicking? Ah, are you maybe talking about two diagonal tracks in the same tile, where each can have an independent signal?
10:58-!-Reemo [Dr_Jekyll@p57B0DD76.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:58<@Rubidium>yup, the latter
10:59<Mchl>it's so obvious noone notices it
10:59<+glx>I implemented it long time ago
10:59<Mchl>be praised for that
10:59<Tekky>ah, yes.... but unfortunately, the track type must still be identical... i.e., to have maglev and monorail on the same tile is still impossible :-(
10:59<+glx>(when the maparray was not as full as it is now ;) )
11:00<+glx>Tekky: space and sprite problem
11:00<Brianetta>Does Patch have a resizeable map array yet?
11:01<@Rubidium>glx: it's neither a space nor sprite problem
11:01<Wolf01>when peter1138 will finish his work will be only a space problem :P
11:01<planetmaker>:D
11:01<Brianetta>I take it the map array has a bit for rail type, and a bit for each of the six possible rail positions?
11:02<Brianetta>well, rail type will be a nybble
11:02<planetmaker>at least two or three bits for rail type
11:02<@Rubidium>there's enough space on the map for it to work and the sprite problem got "solved" when frosch implemented half tile foundations
11:02<@Rubidium>but that's only for the lower+upper and left+right rail tiles
11:03<@Rubidium>making any rail bit of another railtype will take quite a lot more memory
11:03<SquireJames>grr this GRF Maker thing doesn't work, just falls over when I try to load any NFO or even part of an NFO
11:03-!-welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
11:04<Brianetta>One day we'll have a more flexible map array, and we'll be able to have stretches of double track in one tile
11:04<@Rubidium>why?
11:04<Brianetta>It saves real estate
11:04-!-Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5adb1d9d.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd
11:05<Brianetta>You can fit two lorries onto a single tile, and theyr'e about the same size.
11:05-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has joined #openttd
11:06<@Rubidium>though 4 tracks on a tile with different owners tracktypes and signal states means map space explosion
11:06<@Rubidium>so I don't think it's ever going to happen
11:06<Brianetta>and bigger tiles, or smaller trains
11:07-!-welshdragon is now known as welshdra-gone
11:07<Brianetta>so I don't think.... that reasoning is sound
11:07<Tekky>what about having a simple compact map array and for the rare cases, where not all information fits in the map array, the map array for that tile will instead refer to external memory?
11:08<@Rubidium>Tekky: would most likely use more memory than the current approach
11:08<@Rubidium>and it would be significantly slower
11:09<Brianetta>Having an array of some tile class, where that class wasn't bound to resemble earlier versions, would be an ideal solution, except that old games must be loadable, and that's work.
11:10<@Rubidium>I've looked at many ways to implement such a method and all of them use more memory and CPU than the current method
11:10<Brianetta>On the odd rare occasion where I've wanted to load an older saved game, differences in newgrf versions have stymied me in any case.
11:11<Brianetta>Rubidium: Any structure that can hold more information will use more memory.
11:11<@Rubidium>true, but even when the structure holds less information it'll use more memory
11:12-!-stillunk1own [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
11:12<Brianetta>Depends what kind of structure it is. It's clearly a set of elaborate bitfields at the moment.
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11:13<Tekky>I think it may be best to get rid of the tile concept altogether and store the map information in vector format instead of bitmap (tile) format. However, this would require a complete rewrite of the game, so this idea would only be useful for a new game, such as Transport Empire (TTD in 3D). However, development in that project seems to have stopped :-(
11:13<@peter1138>Only 4 bits.
11:13-!-Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
11:13<@peter1138>Oh, I was scrolled up :(
11:13<Brianetta>peter1138: The whole tile?
11:13<@peter1138>What would you need 4 track types on a tile?
11:13<Brianetta>4 bits for rail type?
11:14<@peter1138>4 bits for rail type, yes.
11:14<Brianetta>That was Rubidium making my idea seem silly by begging the question, why not go to extremes?
11:14<@peter1138>Oh, double track. Not really feasible.
11:14<@Rubidium>you waste at least 4 bytes per tile of metadata to find the correct data "table" and the most used tiles have less than 4 free bytes
11:14<@peter1138>A tile is the base unit ;)
11:14<Brianetta>Not feasible as the map stands, no
11:15-!-Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:16<@peter1138>I would break a lot of things.
11:16<@peter1138>And the tile is there to be the base unit, not broken further.
11:16<Brianetta>Aside from a fear of using more memory, what's the principle objection to increasing the available data size of each tile?
11:16<Brianetta>peter1138: I don't understand "base unit" in this context
11:16<@peter1138>Increasing it unnecessarily.
11:17<@peter1138>Nearly everything uses the tile index to identify location.
11:17<Brianetta>Even road vehicles?
11:17<Brianetta>You can cram at least four of those onto a tile
11:17<@Rubidium>Brianetta: yes, even road vehicles
11:18<@Belugas>adding more room for one or two tile class will just add more empty and useless space for other tile classes
11:18<Brianetta>I fail to see why this poses a problem for trains when road vehicles ar OK with it
11:18<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> I wonder if we could include half-height/double length slopes. <- WANT! ;)
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>ideally, more slope levels in general
11:19<@Belugas>cliffs!
11:19<@Belugas>let;s go, Eddi|zuHause show us waht you can do :)
11:19<@Belugas>go! Go! GO!
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>it'll probably get problems with amount of sprites needed
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>increasing the number of height levels from 16 to 256 should not be that problematic, needs a little bit of shuffling in the map array
11:22<@peter1138>Well...
11:22<@peter1138>That's all a bit out of scope of adding rail types...
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>then everything that plays on "TILE_HEIGHT" needs a little tweaking
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>then it needs storing of each corner individually
11:23<dih>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Openttd.cfg <- "it uses the ini-file structure" ....
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>and then you need to define minimum slopes for stuff like tunnel entrances
11:25<@peter1138>dih: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php?title=Openttd.cfg&diff=1795&oldid=1715
11:25<@peter1138>i.e. it's a wiki, don't blame us.
11:26<dih>hehe - shame
11:26<@Belugas>blame Ledow
11:26*dih just misses an = at the end of newgrf lines in the config
11:26*Rubidium ponders changing Wikipedia
11:27<@Rubidium>or barfing on non ; comments and whitelines
11:27<@Rubidium>and barfing on whitespace
11:27<dih>actually, the load function in openttd can handle it
11:27<@peter1138>So I started with overlays, but basically need a whole new function to draw them.
11:28<Brianetta>Rubidium: Get the [citation needed] wand out
11:28<dih>it's only the way it writes the file
11:28<@peter1138>Which needs to be used for stations and the like too :o
11:30-!-Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
11:32<@peter1138>And then I need to fix slopes :o
11:34<dih>http://paste.openttd.org/45917
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11:36<eax>Hi :) My OpenTTD won't open savegames anymore :( It says "Gameload Faild - File not readable". What can I do about this?
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11:37<SquireJames>Never stop playing OTTD ever again?
11:37<SquireJames>hence no need for saves? :)
11:37<eax>SquireJames - But.. What about poweroutages then? :(
11:37<Brianetta>Invest in a UPS
11:37<SquireJames>well, yes, that'd screw things up
11:37-!-Bork is now known as Doorslammer
11:38<Brianetta>It's OK, games only last until the 21st century. After that you're all cluttered up with cities etc.
11:38<eax>A UPS? Underpowered P*rn Server?
11:38<@Belugas>and that save game has been created and always been used with "official" program?
11:38-!-Singaporekid [~notme@cm236.epsilon122.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:38<eax>@Belugas: YEs
11:38<@Rubidium>eax: either the file is 0 bytes or the user playing OpenTTD isn't allowed to read the file
11:39<Brianetta>Save games are pretty much disposable, anyway.
11:39<@Rubidium>Brianetta: if you remove old NewGRFs
11:40<eax>@Rubidium: I tried running them as root. Couldn't do it either :/ You're right. It's 0k
11:40<Brianetta>Rubidium: I mean in and of themselves. Regardless of whether they load or not, I don't tend to keep old saved games.
11:40<dih>eax: you tried to run openttd as root?
11:40<eax>dih: For the first time now yes.
11:40<dih>are you out of your mind?
11:41<dih>my word
11:41<dih>baaad eax
11:41<dih>baaaaaaad
11:41<ln>baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad
11:41<eax>Well I couldn't save my game in "normal" mode so I tried it in root?
11:41<Brianetta>baaa
11:41<dih>d
11:41<SquireJames>Whats Root when its at home?
11:41<Brianetta>SquireJames: Unix an dLinux super user
11:42<Brianetta>like Administrator on Windows
11:42<ln>eax: so if your key doesn't fit to your home door, you try dynamite?
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11:42<eax>ln: Nope. C4 :D
11:42<eax>Or just usually hack my way around somehow :P
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11:42<dih>Brianetta: with one difference: not even administrator may always do what he wants when he wants
11:42<dih>root may
11:42<Brianetta>nah
11:43<Brianetta>you try deleting an immutable file
11:43<Brianetta>you can't
11:43<Brianetta>only way is to make it, er, mutable
11:43<eax>Or use "sudo rm -r "filename"
11:43-!-Volley [~worf@84.119.55.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:43<Brianetta>eax: Won't shift an immutable file
11:43-!-jni [~geetee@cs181040004.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:43<Sacro>eax: not if it is chattr +i
11:43<eax>Brianetta: It's delete it :P
11:43<Brianetta>That's what immutable is
11:43<eax>Sacro: Come again?
11:43<Sacro>no it wouldn't
11:43<Brianetta>eax: try it
11:44<Sacro>you cannot delete an immutable file
11:44<Sacro>i used to set +i on resolv.conf to stop dhcpcd altering it
11:44<Brianetta>echo test > test.txt
11:44<Brianetta>sudo chattr _i test.txt
11:44<Brianetta>sudo chattr +i test.txt
11:44<dih>eax: some guys around here have some very go(o)d *nix knowledge
11:44<eax>Brianetta: No thanks :P I like my system as it is. But isn't immutable just locked or something?
11:44<Brianetta>sorry (:
11:44<ln>Sacro: heh, so did I.
11:44<eax>dih: Fair eneough :) I'm just confused about that an immutable file is xD
11:45<Brianetta>eax: Immutable means, literally, immutable. Can't be deleted, moved, renamed, altered, appended or even hardlinked.
11:45<Brianetta>chattr +i filename
11:45<Brianetta>makes filename immutable
11:45<Brianetta>chattr -i filename
11:45<eax>Brianetta: ohh okay, thanks :) But.. Where are they?
11:45<Brianetta>reverses that
11:45<@Rubidium>Brianetta: then immutable is flawed!
11:45<Brianetta>They're wherever they were when they were made immutable
11:45<@Rubidium>cause you mutated the fact that it was immutable
11:46<Brianetta>That fact wasn't a property of the file
11:46<Brianetta>just the filesystem
11:46<eax>Ohh okay..
11:46<Brianetta>actually, deleting a file, in Linux, is a directory operation (so you can delete any file owned by anybody, if you can write to the directory)
11:46<Brianetta>but immutability even resists that
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11:46<Sacro>Brianetta: not if you make it 1xxx
11:46<Sacro>with chmod
11:47<Sacro>like /tmp is 1777
11:47<Sacro>err
11:47<Brianetta>Sacro: No, even then it's still a directory operation
11:47<Sacro>well that is true
11:47<Brianetta>You're being deprived of some write access to the folder, not to the files therein
11:47<eax>Well I can't delete it now :P
11:48<Brianetta>eax: You used chattr?
11:48<eax>Brianetta: Yeah
11:48<Brianetta>chattr does many interesting things
11:48<Brianetta>man chattr
11:48<Brianetta>It's handy for making your openttd.cfg stay the same
11:48<eax>Okay thanks :)
11:48<+glx>"openttd -x" does the same
11:49<dih>glx: interesting things? :-P
11:49<Brianetta>I use it to stop gpg deleting the symlink to my secret keyring and replacing it with a copy of the keyring
11:49-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fea0b.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
11:49<Brianetta>Since the secret keyring is on a removable device
11:57<Tekky>Damn, I just noticed that the TTDPatch devs already had all features of YAPP, even before YAPP existed. The only feature they were missing were "through signals": http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ThroughSignals:Alpha
11:57<Eddi|zuHause><Brianetta> that number being how many consecutive reservations it should try to make <- yes, it's basically an extension to what the advance signals do, you just have to have a counter how many ahead reservations the train already made, and then do consecutive calls to the reservation function
11:58<Tekky>Ah, even those through signals they had before YAPP existed. :-( Oh well, at least OpenTTD has caught up now
11:58<dih>Tekky: it's not about catching up
11:59<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: Cool (: I know it's possible.
11:59<dih>or having features the other has
11:59<dih>TTDPatch and OpenTTD are separate projects and will remain so
11:59<Brianetta>TTDPatch has catching up of its own to do.
11:59<Fennec>ttdpatch has got to be the craziest third-party patch evar.
11:59<Brianetta>You can't load several trainsets into Patch.
11:59<Brianetta>I believe it still only has the one map size.
12:00<Tekky>that's good to know :-)
12:00<Brianetta>It's Windows only, of course.
12:00<Tekky>ah, yes, that is a major advantage of OpenTTD.
12:00<Brianetta>I don't think it has a console, either, so you have to enter commands (or cheats) into signs.
12:00<dih>now that is cute
12:00<Tekky>also, when playing TTDPatch, the game feels laggy and unresponsive. This is not the case with OpenTTD.
12:01<Brianetta>Not that I can be 100% sure, because I haven't played Patch since version 2 in the old version number scheme, which would have been in 1996 or so.
12:01<dih>lol
12:01<Brianetta>Well, I haven't run a DOS computer since then
12:01-!-welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
12:02<dih>Tekky: if you get passed the 'comparing patch and open' stage, you'll be fine ;-)
12:02<Brianetta>I dual booted DOS and Linux between 1994 and 1996 ish
12:02<Fennec>ah, yes, the sign cheets
12:02<Fennec>*cheats, even
12:03<Tekky>Development in OpenTTD is certainly a lot easier and more pleasant than with TTDPatch. :-)
12:04<Tekky>I notice that the TTDPatch don't even have a "development" forum, I guess because it is too complex and very few people can do it.
12:05<Brianetta>You need x86 assembler to contribute meaningfully.
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: a problem is specifying the behaviour properly, like a problem that i see: if you mark an express train to do 3 ahead reservations, and say it won't start from the platform until it can reserve all, the slow trains will continuously sneak into that window, because they can reserve their 1 ahead path. or you make incomplete reservations, and let the train not start, then you block the junction even though the train is not moving,
12:05<Eddi|zuHause> or you make partial ahead reservations, and let the train start anyway, but that negates the effect of having a free full speed window ahead of the train...
12:06<Tekky>Development for TTDPatch consists of making ugly hacks, I guess. I'm happy I have the OpenTTD source code for making my own patches. :-)
12:06<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: I'd say the latter (reserve as many as possible, and start moving into the reservations)
12:07<Brianetta>Sure, a busy line can negate the effect of a full speed window. Unfortunately, as you reach line capacity, your trains will have to wait.
12:07<Brianetta>You might not have three consecutive paths to reserve.
12:08<Tekky>That's how trains work in reality, too. They reserve the route from signal to signal and reserve as much as they can, up to about 10 km for fast trains.
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>a real advantage of the ahead reservations could be "unsafe" signals, where you only can reserve a path to, if you have "permission" to reserve another path ahead, so only express trains are allowed to use those as an overtake track [which is slightly unrealistic, but might be easier to handle gameplay wise, than having the slow train switch tracks, and check if it won't block opposite trains]
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12:11<Eddi|zuHause>also, it makes these overtake maneuvers guaranteed to be successfull
12:11<Tekky>what's the point in having a signal that will always show green?
12:11-!-david [~david@c-24-62-103-46.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
12:11<Tekky>or are you talking about my concept of "weak reservations"? http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Realistic_Path_Based_Signalling
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes, somewhat, only a different approach
12:12<Sacro>Tekky: it's handy for when there are no junctions to worry about
12:12<Sacro>it shows green unless there is a train
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>the problem now, when you have two parallel tracks: two trains of same speed will constantly hop around each other
12:12<Sacro>in advance of it
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>slowing each other down to half speed
12:13<Tekky>I don't have any such problem.... just a moment, let me upload a savegame....
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>well, suppose you don't have signals on the "wrong" track, for blocking reasons...
12:14<hylje>weak reservations are indeed needed for trains to be able to not interrupt each other when not necessary
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>the first train will enter the "right" signal block, the second train will reserve the "wrong" track, up to the next signal on the "right" track
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>the first train will have to wait, until the overtaking is done
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>and then again reserve a path over the "wrong" track
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>which makes the second train wait
12:15<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: Only if you have one switch-over for every signal
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, you have no way to specify that a train may not reserve the "wrong" track unless it is faster than the ahead train is
12:17<Tekky>Eddi: ah, so you are talking about bi-directional double track? I thought you were talking about one-directional double track.
12:17-!-`Fuco` [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has quit [Quit: Quit]
12:17<hylje>given ideal PBS, double track can be either based on the current need
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i'm talking bi-directional
12:17<Tekky>ah, yes, for that you need "unsafe signals" and "weak reservations", that's why I wrote that wiki article.
12:18-!-welshdragon [~vista@host86-137-66-208.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:19<Tekky>However, I think bi-directional double track is not that important for now, because one-directional double track works very well in YAPP. I think it's good enough for now and there are more important features than bi-directional double track.
12:21<Tekky>In my opinion, YAPP will have to be optimized significantly before "weak reservations" can be added.
12:21<hylje>1-dir pbs with shifts allows parallel trains to interrupt each other needlessly
12:21<Brianetta>hylje: If you have more than three or so signals between shifts it clears up.
12:22<hylje>magically?
12:22<hylje>is there an explanation?
12:22<Brianetta>Yes. More signals facing away put the penalty for switching higher than waiting for the train in front.
12:23<Tekky>I have a shift possibility after every signal (=train length) and I have no real problems with trains interrupting each other needlessly.
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>but then the overtake places are useless, because either all trains or no train use it
12:23<Brianetta>Well, overtaking is infrequently used on tracks like that. An overtaken train is almost always stopped by order.
12:24<Brianetta>Timetables make sure that trains don't need to overtake.
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>have you tried the manual timetable synchronisation patch?
12:24<Brianetta>As it is, if a line became inaccessible for a while (say, a train crash) the other trains could use the other lane.
12:25<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: There's nothing in OpenTTD that I will call a timetable.
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=37166&p=715316#p715316
12:25<Brianetta>Yep. I still won't call it a timetable.
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12:26<Brianetta>If you can't say what time the train is due to leave, it's not a timetable.
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's a step in the right direction, i think
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>a train won't leave before it's finished loading
12:26<Brianetta>I don't. Its very presence means that real timetable development is less likely.
12:27<Tekky>In order to implement proper overtaking, I think YAPP/YAPF would have to be expanded to implement train priorities, so that trains always have a look-ahead in addition to the reserve-ahead, so that path conflicts with trains can be detected in advance and resolved beforehand.
12:27<hylje>there needs to be a notion of micro-time (daytime) for actual timetables, no?
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>so, do you have an outline what's really needed?
12:27<Brianetta>I'd like to guarantee a free platform at 6:30 for my express, for example.
12:27<Brianetta>First thing you need is a clock.
12:27-!-mikl [~mikl@cpe.ge-0-2-0-812.0x50c774be.boanqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
12:27<Brianetta>It doesn't have to sync with the calendar.
12:27<Brianetta>It just needs to show a game time of some sort.
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>the clock is there, it's called a date...
12:28<Brianetta>Then, simple as this, an order needs to specify a start time.
12:28<Brianetta>Not dates. Times.
12:28<Brianetta>It needs to be cyclic.
12:28<hylje>date and time with no actual connection
12:28<Brianetta>One hour could be a game-month long.
12:28<Brianetta>Whatever.
12:28<hylje>arbitrary
12:28<Brianetta>yes
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you start with times unrelated to dates, you need to specify a "day length" [in ticks]
12:29<Brianetta>So, you say "Go to Funtfingford Central at 3:45"
12:29<hylje>or rather, depart
12:29<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: Not ticks. You need to actually implement a clock.
12:29<hylje>Brianetta: the clock may be based on ticks
12:29<Brianetta>hylje: I was thinking like current orders, with a bit added (:
12:30<Brianetta>It may be based on ticks. So's the calendar, but we still use days and months, not ticks.
12:30<@peter1138>It needs to be related to ticks.
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: what else should the clock be based on, if not ticks?
12:30<Brianetta>The fact that a tick even exists should be hidden away.
12:30<hylje>Peter-o-matic has spoken, it's decided.
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not seeing the relevance of this implementation detail...
12:31<Brianetta>Eddi, it's easy. With a clock, you can tell a vehicle when to begin its order.
12:31<hylje>would the clock be purely cyclic or would it go over weeks?
12:31<Brianetta>It'd go from the end of the day back to the start.
12:32<@peter1138>But... weekends!
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>the patch does that. you specify a date (substitute by time if you have a clock, by "tick number modulo day length")
12:32<Brianetta>There's no real point having a Saturday timetable, since nobody has weekends off in the game.
12:32<@peter1138>I have to say, I never use the current timetable feature.
12:32<hylje>well then
12:32<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: An actual date? In what form?
12:32<hylje>maybe we don't have weeks
12:32<@peter1138>I set it to autofill a couple of times but I never saw any actual effect :p
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>and it will be cyclic by order length
12:32<Tekky>The problem is that in reality, timetables are clock based (on time of day) and the timetable is repeated once per day. However, in OpenTTD, one day is too short a period for a timetable to be repeated, unless you are using the daylength patch.
12:33<Brianetta>Tekky: Clock time and calendar do not need to be related at all.
12:33<@peter1138>Not a problem as the timetable clock does not need to be related.
12:33<Brianetta>What he said.
12:33<@peter1138>Deciding how long it will be is another matter, however.
12:33<hylje>24 hours
12:33<@peter1138>It would have to be quite long.
12:33<Brianetta>Well, that's for devs to tweak.
12:33<@peter1138>YAPO!
12:33<hylje>a configurable value?
12:34<Sacro>YADP?
12:34<@peter1138>And then... how do you set up the timetable?
12:34<@Belugas>devs do not tweak
12:34<Brianetta>hylje: Depends whether such values are easy to divide into minutes, hours, etc
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: the patch allows setting a date, like "5th January 1953", so the train will wait until that date to start the next order
12:34<hylje>peter1138: by giving orders a hour:minute parameter for triggering
12:34<Brianetta>peter1138: On the orders. You add a departure time.
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>then it adds 1 round trip time to that date
12:34<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: What happens ot that date after 1953?
12:34<@peter1138>What about shared orders?
12:34<Brianetta>Don't share these.
12:34<hylje>mutually exclusive
12:35<Brianetta>Two trains can't share a timetable unless they're coupled.
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>if a round trip is 41 days, the next start date would be set to 15th february
12:35<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: So, when you want to coordinate another train on the same track, how do you work out which date will fit in?
12:35<hylje>there /could/ be some kind of logic for timetabling groups of trains
12:35<Brianetta>Here's where a clock comes in dead handy.
12:36<Brianetta>If I had timetables, my trains would be *so* micromanaged (:
12:36<Brianetta>I'd even experiment with no signals
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: yes, but it's just a detail how to calculate a current tick number into a representative value
12:36<Brianetta>Pretend it's 1890
12:36<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: modulo arithmetic is inexpensive.
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>i know
12:37<hylje>for instance trains belonging to a group could each have a hour:minute modifier to the shared departure times
12:37<@peter1138>24 days is 24 hours? ;p
12:37<@peter1138>That's a bit short, I think.
12:37<Brianetta>That's a 48 second day
12:37<hylje>i'd go for some ten minute days
12:37<hylje>myself
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>it is a very small detail, to calculate the current tick number into a clock value
12:37<Brianetta>Since there's no night time in OpenTTD land, we could use a 12 hour clock
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>each player should be able to set his own clock length
12:38<hylje>that's pretty arbitrary
12:38<hylje>possible, yes
12:38<Brianetta>Well, as long as you understand that a minute might not be an integer number of ticks
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>the current problem of "autofill" is that the outcome is useless, it does not allow for error margins
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>so trains can never catch up a delay
12:39<Brianetta>peter1138: 1 day per 5 minutes might be reasonable
12:40<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: The wiki suggests increasing the times after using autofill fo ra baseline
12:40<hylje>five is A-OK, but why not ten?
12:40<@peter1138>2.4 timetable days in a year?
12:40<Brianetta>peter1138: Sure
12:40<Sacro>strange number
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but when it needs manual attention over one round trip time, it makes autofill useless
12:40*peter1138 is going home
12:40*Brianetta nods
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>then it'd be better to have an auto-estimate, that immediately calculates times based on speed and air distance
12:41<Brianetta>Timetables as implemented are a bit useless, all told.
12:41<Sacro>true
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>autofill could be left completely auto if i could say like "allow 10% error margin"
12:42<Brianetta>What would it matter?
12:42<Brianetta>You're not coordinating with any other train
12:42<Brianetta>There's no reference point
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>i don't need to change the values afterwards
12:42-!-Doorslammer [Doorslamme@144.138.223.169] has quit []
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: the patch above adds the reference point
12:42<Brianetta>Ah.
12:43<Brianetta>That's almost a clock.
12:43<hylje>work is almost done
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>it can be improved by your clock suggestion, but that is mainly for display
12:43<hylje>display is important
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>and it could use displaying times for each order entry
12:43<Brianetta>Having an actual clock that tells the time makes the player's life more fun.
12:44<hylje>yep, a clock applet for the time of day
12:44<Brianetta>It could be a window, like Jazz Jukebox
12:44<hylje>and am-i-on-time clocks for each train detail window
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>what i am currently missing is a news message "train A is more than X ticks/days/randomconvenienceunit late"
12:45<Brianetta>They're all "on time" until they're late. When I was going to the TT meet, and was still in Newark five minutes before I was due in King's Cross, OpenTTD would have said "on time"
12:45-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@78-21-228-27.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>well, you're not going to get it finer than the order list
12:47<Tekky>I think all trains of a timetable should have a reference point, for example the time the first train of the timetable should start moving. In addition to this, the reference points of all timetables should be synchronizable to some global reference point.
12:47<Brianetta>Tekky: I say just the latter.
12:48<Brianetta>Each timetable should be synchronized to the global reference.
12:48<Brianetta>The difficulty with OpenTTD timetables is that timetable entries are of the form "wait this long" rather than "go at this time"
12:49<Tekky>So there should be two types of timetable synchronizations: The trains using the same timetable should be able to synchronize with each other. But it should be possible to synchronize different timetables with each other.
12:49<Brianetta>Trains can't use the same timetable
12:49<Tekky>if they are using shared orders?
12:49<Sacro>with an offset they could
12:49<Brianetta>If they're using shared orders, then each should have its own times stored
12:49<Vikthor>Brianetta: How would you handle trains going from one side of the large map to other, eg. in game counterpart of transsiberian railway, where trip takes several days
12:50<Brianetta>You can't have all the trains trying to be the 5:$8 to Grodston Mines
12:50<Brianetta>Vikthor: I'd not timetable it.
12:50<Wolf01>http://thepiratebay.org/blog/123 yes, we are a fascist state this is the truth, long life to TPB forever!
12:51<Brianetta>Wolf01: *the* Fascist state, I should say (:
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: the patch has a separate starting time for each train in a shared orderlist
12:51<Wolf01>there are may fascist states
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>only the travel times are the same
12:51<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: The patch has it right, then
12:52<Brianetta>Wolf01: There really aren't. People use the word fascist to mean all kinds of oppression.
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>it also has a button for "figure out the start times for each train automatically"
12:53<Brianetta>That's cool, too. If the times were understandable clock times, then it'd be the business.
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: technically, italy is really the origin of fascism
12:53<Tekky>The definition of fascism is too vague for me.......
12:54<Brianetta>What annoys me is people who call racists, "fascist." Fascism is extremely nationalist, not necessarily racist.
12:54<Tekky>Therefore, this word doesn't mean much to me.
12:54<Wolf01>yes you are right, but Italy is really a fascist state, the law forbid fascism apology but if you go around you will find always and everywere people which perform the roman greeting and love the Dux
12:54<Brianetta>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
12:55<Brianetta>as opposed to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_(epithet)
12:57<Brianetta>OK, I'm catching the train home.
12:57-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-86-27-108-163.brnt.adsl.virgin.net] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
13:00<planetmaker>hi
13:00<Tekky>yes, I read those definitions, but they are still too vague for me.....
13:01<planetmaker>Eddi, could give the link to the altered time table patch? It's not in my backlog...
13:01<Tekky>hi planetmaker
13:01<Tekky>this one? > http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=37166&p=715316#p715316
13:02<planetmaker>I guess so. Thx :) Sounds quite interesting to have real time tables :)
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>what's kinda counterintuitive is, the given date is when the train starts the timetable, and the timetable starts with the waiting time at the first station
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>so the train doesn't leave on the starting date, but like 10 days after the starting date
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13:05<planetmaker>hm... but that doesn't sound like something which couldn't be remedied.
13:05-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:06<planetmaker>and it's a step in a nice direction. Especially, if you want to build an s-bahn system for towns.
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>"Do not give your Lira to any corporation [...]" <- someone missed the introduction of the euro 6 years ago :p
13:06<@peter1138>Well...
13:07<@peter1138>Timetables don't need "travel for" and "wait" times.
13:07<@peter1138>They just need a leaving time.
13:07<planetmaker>true.
13:07<planetmaker>but you'd need an estimate for the travel time in order to set the leaving times :)
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: well, stations that have longer waiting times do have a "arrival" and a "depart" time
13:07<planetmaker>at least initially
13:07<Fennec>Feature Request: Start gameplay with lira. Switch to Euro in 2000-whenever-ish. :)
13:08<Fennec>AUTOMAGICALLY
13:08<@peter1138>planetmaker, no you don't.
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>Fennec: errr.. that is already implemented...
13:08<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, true...
13:08<Fennec>Eddi|zuHause: really?
13:08<Fennec>haha
13:08<Fennec>never mind me then :)
13:08<Fennec>they beat me to it :P
13:09*Fennec usually does GBP, EUR, USD.
13:09<@peter1138>planetmaker: your autofill can fill in the times that it left.
13:09<planetmaker>peter1138: well, but how do you judge the travel time or set the departure times for a new train on a new route, if you've no idea?
13:09<planetmaker>yeah, true :)
13:09<@peter1138>Or
13:09<@peter1138>If you had a visible clock, you'd be able to see it ;)
13:09<planetmaker>and then manually tweak it...
13:09<@peter1138>Yes.
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i already voiced my concerns against autofill. an auto-estimate might be more useful
13:10<@peter1138>estimating it fraught with peril
13:10<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: what's the prinicipal concern of yours?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is a) the current autofill result is useless, because it must be modified afterwards
13:10<@peter1138>Shared orders must be supported, presumably with an offset for each vehicle, possibly determined automatically by the number of vehicles.
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>b) within one round trip time, you have so many other things to do, that you forget that adjustment
13:11<planetmaker>hehe :) that's true indeed :)
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: the patch by Maedhros has that
13:11<planetmaker>but for that case I sticky the vehicle's window.
13:11<@peter1138>But a guestimate is hardly that useful either.
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13:11<planetmaker>peter1138: that'd be nice.
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but i immediately have a result that i can work on
13:12<@peter1138>Celestar, ping?
13:12<planetmaker>whether guestimate or autofill - I don't mind. Either is fine IMO
13:12<planetmaker>autofill just takes a jiffy longer.
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>my autofill problem would mostly be solved by an automatic [configurable] error margin
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>like "autofill with error of 10%"
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>then autofilled trains have the ability to catch up delays
13:13<planetmaker>meaning to enlarge all travel times by 10%?
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:14<planetmaker>sounds reasonable :)
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>the current autofill result is too strict. even 1 tick delay per round trip will add up
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>and you are certainly getting delays, because the stations were empty on the first round trip
13:15<planetmaker>I usually use it such that I don't specify travel times. Just loading times
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>you need to specify all if you are really going to synchronise the network
13:16<planetmaker>for exactly the reason that trains travel like usual anyway... accumulating delays
13:16<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes, I know :). As said: would be nice.
13:17-!-Forked [~kjetil@savner.vdsl2.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:20<@peter1138>Heh, non-destinations totally fails :)
13:27-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-86-27-108-163.brnt.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
13:28<Brianetta>re
13:28<Brianetta>not bad time there
13:28<Sacro>re Brianetta
13:28<Sacro>30 mins, not bad
13:28<Brianetta>That includes an emergency toilet visit (:
13:29<Sacro>heh
13:34-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>you can't use the toilet on the train?
13:36-!-Brainstorm2 [~Brainstor@82-171-5-111.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
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13:38<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: Tyne & Wear Metro has no toilets.
13:38<Brianetta>It's like the Tube.
13:38<Brianetta>In fact, it's more like the Berlin S-Bahn
13:38<Brianetta>Same look, level platforms, everything.
13:41-!-mikl [~mikl@0304ds2-ba.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd
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13:42<Prof_Frink>ELC Tech. All-Terrain Tube Train!
13:42<Brianetta>http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/images/BerlinSBahn1.jpg
13:42<Brianetta>http://www.bbc.co.uk/wear/content/images/2005/11/24/metro_train_203x152.jpg
13:43<Brianetta>http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38130000/jpg/_38130681_metro300.jpg
13:43<Brianetta>Compareses (:
13:43<Brianetta>Prof_Frink: Oh yeah
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>you want me to list differences? ;)
13:43<Brianetta>Eddi: Similarities (:
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, 3rd rail vs. catenary is very obvious ;)
13:44<Brianetta>Not saying they're identical. They're just more like each other than many random pairs of trains.
13:44<Brianetta>Not just the technical stuff, but the aesthetics
13:44<Brianetta>Both have level platform access, and both are square
13:45<Brianetta>Both have no bloody toilet
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>the "S-Bahn" here uses standard double-decker wagons
13:45<Brianetta>Standard?
13:45<Brianetta>The loading guage inthe UK is too low for that, so it's abnormal here, not standard.
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>but it is always said that this doesn't fit the description of an "S-Bahn"
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>i mean "standard" in the sense of "the same they use for normal short distance trains"
13:47<Brianetta>http://dart75.tripod.com/ddlatest.html
13:47<Brianetta>That's the only double deck train the UK has ever used
13:47<Brianetta>You'd be forgiven for not realising that if you saw one
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.gwebspace.de/cmbln/bahn/halleipzig/hal-01.JPG
13:48<Brianetta>http://dart75.tripod.com/bddscut.htm
13:48<Brianetta>Check out the interleaved feet and heads
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>i've read about british double decker wagons, but not seen them
13:48<Brianetta>They were withdrawn after, like, two minutes
13:48<Prof_Frink>Brianetta: Double decked bits of Le Shuttle?
13:48<Brianetta>Eddi: That s-bahn would hit every bridge in the UK
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>i know ;)
13:49<Prof_Frink>Brianetta: That's genius!
13:50<Brianetta>Prof_Frink: It sucked in the sun
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: the flaw in your design is that the lower row is not lowered between the wheels
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>that wastes enormous amounts of space
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, around here, double decker wagons are really somewhat "standard"
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>like half of the regional trains use them
13:54<Prof_Frink>Nah, they should just make the inside into one big bouncy castle/ball pit
13:54<Prof_Frink>Then people wouldn't care that they weren't going anywhere.
13:55<Brianetta>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD is the same on Wikipediaq
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>http://sbahn.foren-city.de/topic,1059,-fotogalerie-s-bahn-quot-halleipzig-quot.html <- to get a better overview
14:01-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
14:01-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
14:02<Sacro>Bjarni!
14:02<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Sacro's back.
14:02<@Bjarni>I noticed :(
14:03<Brianetta>And his front.
14:03<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14053 /trunk/ (Makefile.in Makefile.src.in): -Fix: branch detection failed for svn+ssh repos
14:03<@Bjarni>scary
14:04<@Bjarni>are they connected?
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14:06-!-Ailure [Cat@194.47.44.229] has joined #openttd
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: page two has also nice pictures: http://sbahn.foren-city.de/topic,1059,15,8a3c3f7b74667f673f66eb0b3c406593,-fotogalerie-s-bahn-quot-halleipzig-quot.html
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>and some not so nice ones ;)
14:10<@Bjarni>those double decker wagons... they somehow look familiar
14:10<@Bjarni>we have something very similar here (except for the colour)
14:10<@Bjarni>are they made by Bombadier?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>they are made in Görlitz, afaik
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know who owns that by now...
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>isn't everything owned by Bombardier meanwhile?
14:11<@Bjarni>not really
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>the development of the double decker wagons goes back to the pre-WWII wagons of the Lübeck-Büchener Eisenbahn (LBE)
14:12<@Bjarni>but it fits the description I got of "our" double decker wagons, that they are build by Bombadier in what used to be DDR
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>and went on through the entire DDR time
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>it's one of the few things that survived the DDR
14:13<@Bjarni>the railroad seems happy about them
14:13<@Bjarni>I think 58 tons for a single passenger wagon is too much though
14:14<dih>Rubidium: the server only sends 189 chars of chat message to the clients (including \0)
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i haven't managed to visit the historic trains in Leipzig yet...
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14:17<Brianetta>die Ferkeltaxe is pretty cool (:
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>yeah ;)
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>("Ferkel" == little pig, in case you don't know)
14:18<Brianetta>Piglet (:
14:18<Brianetta>I didn't know
14:18<Brianetta>It's a bus
14:19<Brianetta>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(train)
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes, "Schienenbus" ("Railbus") is the official name
14:19<Brianetta>That's a bus, too
14:19<Brianetta>British Rail needed trains on the cheap
14:19<Brianetta>so they contacted bus manufacturers, and made the Pacer on that technology
14:20<Brianetta>They have bus seats, windows, doors, even the rails you hold if you stand
14:20<Brianetta>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lev1nnr.jpg
14:20<Brianetta>The prototype even looks like a bus
14:20<dih>Rubidium, correction, 195 chars including \0
14:20<Brianetta>They basically changed the wheels.
14:26<hylje>blackpool has bus-based trams IIRC
14:26<Brianetta>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyland_National
14:26<Brianetta>That's the bus the Pacer was built from
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferkeltaxe
14:27<Alberth>Did somebody here received an email from FlySpray that I'd like to re-open issue 776 (not pausing initially when starting a new game with a scenario)?
14:28<Brianetta>Farbgebung is livery, isn't it?
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:28-!-TrueBrain [truebrain@80.247.163.158] has joined #openttd
14:28<Brianetta>Basically the same thing (:
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>Farb[e] (colour) + geb[en] (give) + -ung (common ending for nouns)
14:29<TrueBrain>Celestar: alive?
14:29<TrueBrain>peter1138: alive?
14:30<Alberth>TrueBrain: That may depend on your definition of alive :P
14:30<TrueBrain>Alberth: I trust their definition
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar said something about being away
14:31<mikl>The German language is amazing
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>sure it is... i would not know how to derive the meaning of "Livery"... what does it have to do with "living"?
14:32<mikl>No matter what you say in it, it sounds like you're talking about something which is made from steel and whose weight is measured in tonnes ;)
14:32<mikl>…or perhaps I'm just traumatised from being forced to learn it in school :)
14:33<SpComb>hmm... would it be a good idea to try playing a game with the new paxdest stuff at this point?
14:33-!-fonso [~fonso@brln-d9bac511.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
14:34<SpComb>well, http://galadriel.td.mw.tum.de:8000/ isn't responding
14:34<mikl>livery: ORIGIN Middle English : from Old French livree ‘delivered,’ […] The original sense was [the dispensing of food, provisions, or clothing to servants]
14:35<mikl>so, livery was originally the clothes you gave your servants :)
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>so basically it described how you dressed your folks
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>and that shifted to how you coloured your cars
14:36<SpComb>does someone have a link to an alternative paxdest repo?
14:36<mikl>yeah. It has an alternative meaning as well "resembling liver in color or consistency"
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>german makes way more sense ;)
14:38<mikl>actually, it still means "special uniform worn by a servant or official." in addition to the train-stuff
14:39<mikl>but yeah, the german thing is more direct. Could be translated "coloring"
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's basically it...
14:40*SpComb prods Celestar and peter1138
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14:41<mikl>heh, it seems livery has also been in use in german: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livree
14:41-!-bleepy [bleepy@5ad4569a.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd
14:41<mikl>though only the clothes-part of it
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i have never ever heard the word "livery" outside TT context
14:43<mikl>In Danish, it's "liberi"
14:43<@Bjarni>???
14:43<@Bjarni>liberi?
14:43<Brianetta>Eddi: Livery is a well known English word for vehicular colour schemes. It comes from horse-drawn carriages having a crest on the side, co-ordinated with the dress of the footmen or other servants.
14:43<frosch123>liberi is latin for books
14:43<frosch123>or libri?
14:44<@Bjarni>I have honestly never heard the word "liberi"
14:44<frosch123>maybe you should try with dutch in that case :p
14:44<mikl>Bjarni: it's a bit obscure, but it's listed here: http://www.jernbaneklub.dk/jernbaneartikler/ordbog/opslag.asp?spr=e&bogs=l :)
14:44<mikl>a site for train geeks of course :)
14:45<Brianetta>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livery covers etymology of livery
14:45<@Bjarni>I know what livery is
14:46<Sacro>goes well with sausages
14:46<Brianetta>sausagery
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, the meaning may be obvious for native speakers, but there is absolutely no obvious connection between the words "livery" and "colour"
14:46<Brianetta>Not colour; arms
14:46<Brianetta>It's a heraldric thing
14:47<mikl>yeah, it's not just the colors
14:47<guru3>has anyone been working on openttd for half their life yet?
14:47<@Bjarni>Laird crosshead: krydshoved til to overliggende linealer <--- now who understands this (besides me)? :)
14:47<Brianetta>It isn't that old, guru3
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>whatever you mean by "working"
14:48<mikl>guru3: if you count the time i spent playing TTD as a child…
14:48<Brianetta>I never got to play TTD as a child
14:48<@Belugas>for half of my working time for 2 years, yes, i do raise my hand
14:48<guru3>programming, playing the game, moderating the forums
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>TT (original) is roughly half as old as i am now.
14:48<mikl>heh, TTD was one of the first games I bought
14:48<guru3>i was just doing the math and in another 4 years ill have spent half my life on armagetron
14:48<guru3>it was a scary thought
14:48<mikl>had TT pirated before that
14:49<@Bjarni>the first game I got was Wheeling Wallie
14:49<@Bjarni>this predates TT with like 10 years
14:49<hylje>predator
14:49<guru3>TT was the second game i was really into
14:49<Noldo>faceoff
14:49<guru3>Pitfall The Mayan Adventure was before that
14:49<guru3>but i haven't been as involved with openttd as i have been with AA
14:50<@Bjarni>bbl dinner
14:50<guru3>just the thought "when i'm 24 i'll have first played armagetron 12 years ago and started running the forums for it 8 years ago" is scary... 1/2 and 1/3rd my life on a game
14:50<Brianetta>Half my life... the only game I'veplayed that long is Elite
14:50<@Bjarni>in the meantime mikl can figure out what "krydshoved til to overliggende linealer" means in common human language :)
14:50*Bjarni hides
14:50<mikl>Bjarni: that is evil
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>"Angeblich sollen doch demnächst 200 km/h-Dostos für den München-Nürnberg-Express kommen! Davor ne 120, und fertig ist die schnellste S-Bahn Deutschlands!" lmao :p
14:52<guru3>i guess im the ony person that worries about these things
14:52*guru3 fades into the backgroundd of worry
14:52<TrueBrain>@kick Eddi|zuHause I hate german
14:52<TrueBrain>he!
14:52<TrueBrain>@whoami
14:52<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: I don't recognize you.
14:52<TrueBrain>aint this the sadest?
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>ln said it was ok if it was in quotes...
14:52<ln>yeah!
14:52<ln>but let me express the same in english: "Allegedly but will soon be 200 km / h Dostos for the Munich-Nuremberg Shipping! Previously ne 120, and finished the fastest S-Bahn in Germany!"
14:52<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: ln says a lot .. you also believe him if he says the earth is flat?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>not that ln has actually any authority :p
14:53<TrueBrain>@kick ln that aint english
14:53-!-ln was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [that aint english]
14:53<TrueBrain>hihihihihi :)
14:53-!-ln [~lanurm@castor.utu.fi] has joined #openttd
14:53*TrueBrain hugs ln
14:53<dih>LOL
14:53*ln hugs back
14:53<TrueBrain>:$
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: no, i only believe things that help my cause ;)
14:53<TrueBrain>@kick TrueBrain no MSN smilies here!
14:53-!-TrueBrain was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [no MSN smilies here!]
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14:58<Sacro>(laugh)
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14:59<Sionide>harsh
15:00<Alberth>Did any dev already have a look at my Hierarchical Widgets patch I posted at the forum? I'd like to continue, and would appreciate a few directions
15:00<TrueBrain>left
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15:01<Noldo>TrueBrain: har har, but nice to see you here
15:02<SpComb>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31657 <-- is this daylength patch viable for actual use?
15:05-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F553F9.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
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15:06<Eddi|zuHause>daylength patches have the inherent problem of not correctly specifying which things are considered to be daily (delayed) and which things are by tick (normal)
15:12<TrueBrain>Noldo: don't get used to it :p
15:12<Noldo>TrueBrain: I won't
15:12<TrueBrain>:)
15:16<@peter1138>I'm back.
15:16<@Bjarni>mikl: did you figure it out? :)
15:17<mikl>Bjarni: nah :)
15:17<mikl>I'm probably better off not knowing
15:17<mikl>:)
15:17<SpComb>is there some patch option to not have industries die away as time goes by and you don't service them?
15:18<@Bjarni>mikl: what good is a dictionary if you don't get what the translation is?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>you can write a newgrf ;)
15:18<@Rubidium>yes, it's called NewGRF (also available in patch)
15:18*peter1138 prods TrueBrain back
15:18<SpComb>industry expiration is a NewGRF feature?
15:19<@Rubidium>it's NewGRF controllable
15:19<mikl>Bjarni: well, at least you can then find out that it was something that you were not meant to understand :)
15:19<SpComb>hrm...
15:19<@Bjarni>mikl: basically there is a rod sticking out of the piston on a steam locomotive. Somewhere it's connected to the wheels and the word in question means the join between the rod and the wheel
15:20<@Bjarni>I knew that in both English and Danish even before you showed me that dictionary
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>and that is "common language"?
15:20<mikl>Bjarni: so that’s linealer? That makes sense :)
15:20<@Bjarni>I just find it a funny translation as it's a very limited group who would understand the Danish translation
15:21<@Bjarni>and odds are that those who understands it already know how to say it in English
15:21<mikl>I've actually seen a few old steamers, but I have no idea what all the widgets are called
15:21<@Bjarni><mikl> Bjarni: so that’s linealer? That makes sense :) <-- no... it's "krydshoved"
15:21<@Bjarni>linealer are something else on the rods
15:21<mikl>ah, blast
15:22<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> and that is "common language"? <-- something that regular people (like people in here) would understand
15:24<mikl>ah, well. Even if I don't know a lot about old trains, I still think that reading Star Wars books, programming PHP for a living and playing OTTD puts me in the upper 90% of geeks :)
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15:27<@Bjarni>that's not good enough :P
15:29<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14054 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix (rthebeginning): long strings in the edit box would cause OpenTTD to stop drawing the string. This is especially noticable with low resolutions and the chat input box.
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15:36<ln>Bjarni: Apple has been insulted on this channel today.
15:36<TrueBrain>ln: only today? I should come around more often ..
15:36<@Bjarni>heh
15:37<@Bjarni>what bozo talked garbage?
15:37<mikl>BURN HIM! :)
15:38<TrueBrain>burn Bjarni?
15:38<hylje>apple sux
15:38<ln>Bjarni: 17:10 <@R**idium> Apple just plainly sucks
15:38*Belugas is listening to Iron Maiden - 22 Acacia Avenue
15:39<TrueBrain>ln: well, he is right .. if it rotates hard enough, it would suck you in
15:39<TrueBrain>very much indeed
15:39<mikl>burn Rubidium!
15:39<mikl>burn hylje!
15:39<TrueBrain>@kick mikl don't burn my friends, that aint nice.
15:39-!-mikl was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [don't burn my friends, that aint nice.]
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15:40<mikl>arrgh
15:40<mikl>:D
15:40<ln>how much is fullrate in .dk?
15:41<mikl>ln: i have 20 Mbit for 299,-
15:41<ln>what's full about 20 Mbit?
15:41<TrueBrain>1/5th of a full :p
15:41<mikl>only 1 Mbit upstream though
15:41<ln>I have 24/1 for 49,-
15:42<TrueBrain>I have 100/100 for 9 euro 10
15:42<mikl>that's not fair
15:42<mikl>problem is that we only have POTS
15:42<ln>well, i don't quite get 24, but like 16.
15:42<mikl>no fiber between me and the ISP central
15:43<mikl>so 20 is about as good as it gets
15:43<@peter1138>urgh, this overlay code is horrible :(
15:45<@peter1138>http://paste.openttd.org/46087
15:45<@peter1138>And I mean it.
15:47-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@78-21-228-27.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:47<Alberth>Too many cases
15:47<@Belugas>and i would think this is just a tiny part of it...
15:48<frosch123>peter1138: Why do you need to change the y offsets for slopes tracks?
15:48<frosch123>i.e. why arn't they in the grf
15:49<frosch123>errr, just ignore me :)
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15:54<@Bjarni><frosch123> errr, just ignore me :) <-- we always do that
15:54<TrueBrain>Bjarni: you might confuse him with yourself .. dunno
15:55<frosch123>TrueBrain: who are you talking to ?
15:55<TrueBrain>frosch123: dunno
15:55<@Bjarni>this reminds me of the sword fighting in Monkey Island
15:56<@Bjarni>you insult somebody and then they have to make a quick reply that makes the insult backfire
15:56<@Bjarni>it's quite fun actually
15:56<TrueBrain>you always lost, I presume?
15:57<@Bjarni>actually not
15:57<TrueBrain>ah, a computer oponent
15:57<TrueBrain>that explains
15:57<@Bjarni>well I did when the game came out due to lack of English skills >_<
15:59<@Rubidium>dih: locally (over network) it works fine
16:00<@Rubidium>you just need to add spaces to your words otherwise it will not add newlines and thus show only the first line
16:01-!-DJNekkid [~chatzilla@static128-249.adsl.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:11<Eddi|zuHause><Bjarni> well I did when the game came out due to lack of English skills >_< <- strange, i did not have that problem :p
16:11<dih>Rubidium, it has bunches of spaces, i was sending "12345678 "
16:11<@Rubidium>dih: from where?
16:11<dih>dedicated console
16:12<dih>say "123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 ....
16:12*Bjarni slaps Eddi|zuHause
16:12<@Bjarni>I was better at English than German
16:12<dih>Bjarni, me too
16:12<TrueBrain>@op
16:12-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>i wasn't
16:13<@Rubidium>dih: the console just reads a mere 200 bytes
16:13*Bjarni wonders what TrueBrain is up to now
16:13<@Bjarni><dih> Bjarni, me too <-- aren't you German?
16:13<dih>yep :-D
16:14-!-TrueBrain changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.2 | Fundraiser 2008/2009: http://www.openttd.org/fundraiser.php
16:14<dih>Rubidum: could that possibly be changed?
16:14<@Bjarni>ahh
16:14<dih>nice one TrueBrain kill the entire topic for that message
16:14<@TrueBrain>yup
16:16<rortom>i can recommend those: http://hetzner.de/rootserver.html
16:17<@Bjarni>why?
16:17<@Bjarni>you profit from those? :)
16:18<rortom>no, i have only good experience with them
16:19<rortom>also, traffic wise www.ovh.de is good to push out data, as it is unmetered
16:21<rortom>you refund the whole server costs?
16:21*TrueBrain hugs Brianetta
16:21<rortom>we would have to refund ~900 euros :|
16:22<Wolf01>oh fundraiser
16:22<Wolf01>wait, i have 10€ to give you
16:22<Brianetta>(:
16:23-!-KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738c8f9.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- 100,000+ downloads can't be wrong]
16:23<@TrueBrain>[22:23] <-- KillaloT has left this server (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- 100,000+ downloads can't be wrong). <- tell that to Microsoft!
16:24<rortom>;)
16:24<rortom>also, 10 euros from me for ottd
16:25<rortom>donated :)
16:25<planetmaker>orudge?
16:25<@TrueBrain>You are all too kind :)
16:26<Brianetta>TrueBrain: If there's ever a legal case lodged against OpenTTD... we'll vanish like cockroaches (:
16:27<@TrueBrain>Brianetta: most of us will :p
16:27<planetmaker>I'd like to donate, but I need a bank account :)
16:27<Brianetta>planetmaker: Not necessarily
16:27<planetmaker>I don't have paypal nor moneybookers
16:27<dih>Rubidium: ignore my last message ;-)
16:27<Brianetta>Get bank details from Owen, and make a cash deposit at a branch of that bank near you
16:28<@orudge>£23.66 :)
16:28<@orudge>4.8% there
16:28<planetmaker>money transfer should be fine... it's inside EU and charges must not be higher than domestic anymore :)
16:28<@orudge>well
16:28<@orudge>I can provide you with my details if required
16:28<planetmaker>would be nice :)
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>charges for domestic bank transfer are 0 ;)
16:31-!-dragonhorseboy [4a396fef@67.207.141.120] has joined #openttd
16:32<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14055 /trunk/src/ (console_internal.h video/dedicated_v.cpp): -Codechange: increase buffers for (dedicated) consoles as they couldn't use the full "extent" of the new chat message limit.
16:32<rortom>orudge: you thought about adding ads to the site to refund?
16:32<dragonhorseboy>any of you in here from north america know about covered wagons?
16:32<@orudge>rortom: there are adverts
16:32<@orudge>they make a bit of money
16:32<@orudge>but not enough to cover all the costs
16:33<@TrueBrain>'refund' weird word
16:33<dih>Rubidium, oh wow - thanks a bunch... you're a star :-)
16:34<@TrueBrain>million of years old?
16:34<dragonhorseboy>one question I had was .. was it more popular to have a single long block or two smaller one or that depended on the railroads themself?
16:35<@Rubidium>oh, then I can counter burn mikl quite well :)
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>:)
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: i have no idea what you are talking about
16:37<@peter1138>Bah, lining up dowels is a bitch...
16:38<mikl>what's a few jiggo-watts of sunlight between friends?
16:38-!-eax [~eax@0x573bca95.banqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
16:38<@peter1138>TrueBrain: 'refund' is not the right word.
16:38<@peter1138>Reimburse, maybe.
16:39<@TrueBrain>still no idea what it means :p
16:39<@peter1138>A simple 'cover costs' is better though.
16:39<@peter1138>A refund is what happens when you take something back to a shop and they give you your money back.
16:39<Wolf01>ok, you are more rich of 10€
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's what i would have understood as a "refund"
16:39<@TrueBrain>peter1138: yeah, that was what I was thinking .. :p
16:40<dragonhorseboy>hm sorry eddi not sure why I don't seem to be typing straight...
16:41<dragonhorseboy>I meant did they have one long motor block or used two smaller ones (eg V16 verus 2xV8) in most covered wagons in north america?
16:41<@peter1138>Most of the time we don't understand you, dragonhorseboy...
16:42<@peter1138>Hmm, I need a 620mm x 620mm blind for a window.
16:42<@peter1138>But it's circular :o
16:43<dragonhorseboy>peter..do you need it to cover the whole window in one single blind?
16:44<@peter1138>No, but it is quite small.
16:44-!-Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
16:45<dragonhorseboy>hmm well the only idea I could think of now is that I know there's certain blinds that can cover half an arch without any issue (and most don't need any outter rails to guide them at all)
16:45<dragonhorseboy>but a full circle I have no idea about
16:48<@Bjarni> <peter1138> But it's circular :o <-- hehe... check who made the window and visit their homepage
16:48<dragonhorseboy>bjarni :p
16:49<@Bjarni>seriously
16:49-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd []
16:49<@TrueBrain>when God was giving out brains, was Bjarni taking a piss or something?
16:49<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14056 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Fix [FS#2192]: the console backlog is too small for list_patches. Now it'll only remove backlog items when there are more than a threshold and when they are there longer than (another) threshold.
16:49<@Belugas>peter1138, i'll just hang a regular squared blind. it would look normal up until you open it up, and than, since the blind is opened, you do not see it's not the same shape as the window ^_^
16:49<@Bjarni>hmm
16:49<@Bjarni>maybe I read blinds as something else
16:50<@TrueBrain>peter1138: I agree with Belugas :)
16:50<@Bjarni>ohh
16:50<@Bjarni>forget I said anything
16:50<@Bjarni>I thought it was something else >_<
16:50-!-KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-86-147.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
16:50<@TrueBrain>welcome KritiK
16:50<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: we try to (forgot you said anything)
16:50<@TrueBrain>:)
16:51*TrueBrain hugs Bjarni
16:51<@Bjarni>:s
16:51<@Bjarni>peter1138: why would you want a blind for a circular window?
16:51<@peter1138>Homepage?
16:51<@peter1138>It was built a few years ago...
16:52<@Belugas>night to all
16:52<@Bjarni>I can get curtains, blinds and whatever for my window that was built like 15-20 years ago
16:52<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: because he has a rectangle window, but he thought it would be fun to find a circular blind for it ... (omg, really, did he REALLY asked that question?)
16:52<@TrueBrain>night Belugas
16:52<@Bjarni>the factory still supports that size with all their new gadgets
16:52-!-LilDood [~IceChat7@cpc2-bolt5-0-0-cust370.manc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:53-!-LilDood [~IceChat7@cpc2-bolt5-0-0-cust370.manc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
16:53*Bjarni quits listening to TrueBrain
16:53<@peter1138>Factory... hmm...
16:53<@TrueBrain>smart :)
16:53<@Bjarni>yeah the window factory
16:53-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-86-27-108-163.brnt.adsl.virgin.net] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
16:53*peter1138 ponders the 'factory' that put the bricks together...
16:54<@TrueBrain>peter1138: or maybe the glass company?
16:54<@TrueBrain>or maybe the woden frame?
16:54<@Bjarni>I meant the guys who made the wooden frame
16:54<@Bjarni>not the bricks
16:55<@peter1138>I will stick with a rectangular blind :p
16:55<@TrueBrain>peter1138: generous, correctly spelled? (as in: very kind)
16:57<@Bjarni>peter1138: http://interiorpower.co.uk/shapes.html
16:57<@Bjarni>I'm not entirely sure if you can use this though... didn't read that page in details
16:59<Wolf01>would be difficult making a ship lifter? something like this: http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/3533041/2/istockphoto_3533041_the_ship_lift.jpg
17:00-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fea0b.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes ;)
17:01-!-Lakie [~Lakie@80.247.163.109] has quit [Killed (NickServ (Too many failed password attempts.))]
17:01-!-Lakie [~Lakie@80.247.163.109] has joined #openttd
17:01-!-Mchl [~mchl@abed125.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: gnight]
17:02<Wolf01>now we have aqueducts, we might add only the elevator part and then build the lifter how high we want, maybe with 5-6 height level limit
17:02<dragonhorseboy>wolf01 only one question: why not just use the locks thats already there?
17:02<@peter1138>TrueBrain, yes.
17:03<Wolf01>so we don't need to terraform a cliff to build multiple locks
17:03<@TrueBrain>tnx! :)
17:03-!-jni [~geetee@cs181040004.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd
17:04<dragonhorseboy>wolf01 I've rarely terraform much at all for to get 3 tiles higher ... unless you're refering to arctic mountains?
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>i prefer smooth terrain since i want to place >6x8 stations
17:10<dragonhorseboy>heh eddi I usually go for low sea .. hilly terrain .. medium town&industries .. slow-growing towns ^_^
17:10<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: just 6x8? :p
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i'm not the coop guys ;)
17:10<@TrueBrain>true
17:11<@TrueBrain>you are not plural, that's for sure :)
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>you really sure?
17:11<dragonhorseboy>eddi .. most of my stations are just single or two 3-7tiles platform ones ;)
17:11<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: not really :) I never was ..
17:12<dragonhorseboy>except for certain final goods(/etc) trains at times tho .. usually 10-20 tiles long platforms on these then
17:13*peter1138 is going to bed.
17:13<dragonhorseboy>if you have to ask why .. its because several short input trains at times and the fact that the goods-accepting city can be a bit further away at times = long drags on decidated lines :p
17:13<dragonhorseboy>bye peter
17:13<@TrueBrain>night peter1138
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%2012.%20Dez%201938.png <- stuff like this
17:13<@Bjarni>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7540427.stm <--- this got to be one of the best news stories ever
17:14<@Bjarni>I had to check if it were from the first of April
17:14<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: well, I Asked this question about 20 times in the last 2 days:
17:14<dragonhorseboy>cricket :/
17:15*dragonhorseboy never ever liked silly "town feeder" systems
17:15<dragonhorseboy>to our own ^-^
17:15<@TrueBrain>proof to me that the earth isn't flat
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: it's a paxdest game
17:16<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: now imagine night and day. When it's night it's dark and when it's day the sun is delivering light, right?
17:16<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: but "old" undevish paxdest ;-)
17:16-!-welshdragon [~vista@host86-137-66-208.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:16<dragonhorseboy>paxdest?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%202.%20Jan%201942.png
17:17-!-welshdragon [~vista@host86-137-66-208.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
17:17<Ammler>(undevish should be quoted)
17:17<@Bjarni>so since it's day at one place and night at another place at the same time then the sun shines on only a part of earth at once
17:17<dragonhorseboy>whats a paxdest?
17:17<Sacro>what's a Bjarni
17:18<Ammler>Passegners with Destination
17:18*SpComb eats all of Eddi|zuHause's trees
17:18<@Bjarni>now take a lightbulb and a CD. Place the CD so that the lightbulb lights up only parts of the CD at once
17:18<dragonhorseboy>ammler hm ok
17:18<@Bjarni>try to see if you can do the same with the surface of a ball
17:18<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: you talk too slow
17:18<@TrueBrain>and your explanation is week
17:18<dragonhorseboy>and eddi that second screenshot so could use PBS all the way .. or a better junction :p
17:18<@TrueBrain>not to say wrong :)
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm... indeed... "no tree growth" is a little too little tree growth
17:19<@TrueBrain>that you can show other objects to something, doens't proof the sun has to do the same with the earth
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: that has PBS...
17:19<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: does the paxdest patch support loading old savegames?
17:19<@TrueBrain>example: you can't tell if you are in an accelerating car or that you are on a 45 degrees slope (when your eyes are closed)
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: which one?
17:19<@Bjarni>[23:18:46] <TrueBrain> Bjarni: you talk too slow
17:19<@Bjarni>[23:18:49] <TrueBrain> and your explanation is week
17:19<@Bjarni>it didn't take me THAT long :/
17:19<@TrueBrain>but, to quote their website:
17:19<@TrueBrain>Q: "What about the stars, sun and moon and other planets? Are they flat too? What are they made of?"
17:19<@TrueBrain>A: The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, circle Earth at a height of 3000 miles at its equator, located midway between the North Pole and the ice wall. Each functions similar to a "spotlight," with the sun radiating "hot light," the moon "cold light." As they are spotlights, they only give light out over a certain are which explains why some parts of the Earth are dark when others are light. Their apparent rising and setting are caused by
17:19<@TrueBrain>optical illusions.
17:19<@TrueBrain>and a visualization: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=3b82fe990304804dcb6dbbd698913f27&topic=1264&start=16
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: the one by celestar and peter1138: yes, but you need to manually enable them
17:20<@TrueBrain>so, that 'proof' failed
17:20<@TrueBrain>what next?
17:21<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: "enable them"?
17:21<@Bjarni>ROFL
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: there are config settings for passengers, mail, valuables and other cargo
17:21<SpComb>(I did mean the celepeterstar1138 one)
17:21<@TrueBrain>but I am serious, give me some proof! People might mock those guys for their believes, but proof them wrong!
17:22<@TrueBrain>(for the record, most of them very much know that the earth isn't flat, but they challange you to proof them wrong .. which isn't as simple as you might expect)
17:22<@Bjarni>this is at the same level as "evolution didn't happen because it conflicts with the bible"
17:22<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: not really, as you can most likely proof 'evolution'
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: it's physics, there are no proofs... only theories that might explain one or more visible phenomenons
17:22<@TrueBrain>and you can avoid it, but clearly you can't give any proof
17:23-!-jni [~geetee@cs181040004.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:23<@TrueBrain>therefor, you really shouldn't dismiss their tehories
17:23<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: hehe, okay, agree'd. Then give me a plausable exaplanation
17:23<@Bjarni>I have seen ISS with my own eyes and I saw it again 93 minutes later when it had circled the globe
17:23<@TrueBrain>(bah, my english sucks today :p)
17:23<@Bjarni>*engrish
17:23<@Bjarni>:P
17:23-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7F2F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>"plausible" is not an acceptable proof for anyone who really is set out to ignore proofs...
17:24<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: did you? I mean ... really, I can give numerous of reasons why that would happen
17:24<@TrueBrain>none of them including a sphere
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>which is why i find this discussion useless...
17:24<@Bjarni>me too
17:24<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: haha, so you too don't have anything to show why the earth is round :)
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>indeed i haven't...
17:24<@TrueBrain>that is what makes me sad .. people only mock those 'flat earth-people', but we stopped thinking
17:24<@TrueBrain>we just blindly believe what is given
17:25<@TrueBrain>how hard is it to really show something, so you have something in your hand, which says: the earth is round
17:25<@Bjarni>the really crazy thing here is that TrueBrain studied astronomy meaning he should know this
17:25<@TrueBrain>I can tell you, to proof the earth is round, is much easier
17:25<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: we learn to be open minded :)
17:25<Sacro>the earth is flat
17:25<Sacro>just look out the window
17:25<@TrueBrain>if we would believe every theory out there
17:25<dragonhorseboy>well eddi..just so you know anyhow I'm usually more into many individual line branches even for express services ^-^
17:25<Sacro>you go for about 8 miles
17:25<@TrueBrain>progress would be VERY slow
17:25<Sacro>and then fall off
17:25<@TrueBrain>Sacro: most likely
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>no... the earth is round from the inside... when your shoes wear off, they do that on the front and the back, never in the middle
17:26<@Bjarni>Sacro: I don't believe you... prove it
17:27<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: some very simple ways to proof the earth is round .. first off: gravity. Their explanation is that we increase our speed with 9.8 m/s^2 .. which means we would increase in speed with 301,000 km/s a year (does that number mean anything to you?) .. not to say it is insane, also simply impossible :p
17:27<@TrueBrain>second: moon-eclipse / sun-eclipse
17:27<@TrueBrain>only model we ever found to proof that, is circular orbits, which include a round earth
17:27<dragonhorseboy>here's a good question for you damned people: if the earth is flat then why do none of the calfornia-paris airplanes (or whatever) actually fly close to or across the arctic? :p
17:27<@TrueBrain>(give a counter-model, and that fails)
17:27<@TrueBrain>third, mountains coming 'out' of the sea, only possible with round objects
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: err... the lack of a counter-proof is not a proof...
17:28<@TrueBrain>3 simple common sense everyone understandable reasons why the earth is round
17:28<@Bjarni>http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm <--- "The Moon does not exist!"
17:28<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: well, as I Said: plausable explainations
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't understand your mountain reasoning...
17:28<@TrueBrain>I fail to translate the dutch word, so I nicked it 'proof' :)
17:28<@TrueBrain>ever been on the sea?
17:28<@Bjarni>theflatearthsociety.org links to this page
17:28<@TrueBrain>go towards a mountain
17:29<@TrueBrain>you see it 'raise' from the sea
17:29<@TrueBrain>very much impossible with any flat object
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'm a "land rat" :p
17:29<@TrueBrain>my point here was: don't mock people you can't proof wrong
17:30<@TrueBrain>people did that too often in history, and too often they turned out to be not so crazy after all
17:30<dragonhorseboy>like as in E=MC2?
17:30<dragonhorseboy>;)
17:30<@TrueBrain>but granted, the earth really is not flat :p
17:31<@TrueBrain>more like the cosmologic constant, if you want to talk Einstein
17:31<@TrueBrain>E=MC^2 isn't mocked that often
17:31<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: 301,000 km/s <-- this is a little faster than the speed of light, but I can see people rejecting this. Just look at politics. During last election one politicians refused to talk numbers because whenever somebody said anything about numbers (like costs of really expensive promises) they just said some random numbers that nobody understood anyway. The scary part is that this politician got elected
17:31<Eddi|zuHause><dragonhorseboy> and eddi that second screenshot so could use PBS all the way .. or a better junction :p <- the problem of the junction is not the lack of PBS, but that all trains want to use the same exit... i triple-tracked that part of the network then (the route to the top left), so i had two unidirectional and one bidirectional track
17:32<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: the speed thing can be rejected pretty simple .. but if you consider that this is per year
17:32<@Bjarni>E=MC^2 -> E = Einstein, MC = Motor cycle. We now know that Einstein had two motorcycles
17:32<@TrueBrain>and we know the earth is around for at least 3000 years
17:32<@TrueBrain>its speed would be .. well .. insane ;)
17:33<@Bjarni>we can agree that earth is at least 20 years, which is enough
17:33<@TrueBrain>related question: when do you think people stopped believeing the earth was flat? (the general population)
17:34<@TrueBrain>general relativity fails with flat earth, so speed of light fails too .. so any speed is possible, with a flat earth :p Haha :)
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: not much sooner than they read jules verne
17:34<dragonhorseboy>eddi heh ok :)
17:35<Wolf01>isn't the Earth flat?
17:35<@Bjarni>the earth is max 3000 years.... Lord Kelvin proofed that by presuming the sun is made out of coal and calculating how much had burned so far and he came up with a max age of the sun to be 3000 years and clearly the earth could not be older than the sun
17:35<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: lol :p
17:35<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: that guy really wrote too much :p
17:35<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: beautiful calculation, if you ask me
17:35<@TrueBrain>very solid, inf act
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>well, he did have some cool ideas ;)
17:36<@TrueBrain>(well, besides we now know there aren't any coals out there :p)
17:36<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: true
17:36<@Bjarni>Lord Kelvin made that proof because everybody agreed that the theory of evolution would need more than 3000 years and he wanted to proof it wrong as it collided with how he (and most other people) understood the bible
17:37<@TrueBrain>simplicity at his best :)
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>when did jules verne write his books? mid 19th century?
17:38<@TrueBrain>(something can be complete bullshit, and still be elegant :) Take that image of the flat earth .. you have to give those guys a bit of credit for that :))
17:38<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: something like that
17:38<@Bjarni>1860-1880 or something
17:38<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: 1800-1900
17:38<@TrueBrain>somewhere between
17:38<Fuco>1860-1900
17:38<Fuco>he died in 1905 afaik
17:38<@TrueBrain>1851 first
17:38<@Bjarni>1851-1905
17:39<@TrueBrain>1910 last, but that was published after his dead
17:39<@TrueBrain>even a publication in 1920
17:39<@Bjarni>I presume he finished writing it in 1905 even though it took longer to publish it
17:39<@TrueBrain>well, it can be part of found drafts
17:39<@Bjarni>but for all we know he didn't finish it and somebody finished it for him to make money
17:40-!-alphabeat [~alphabeat@1109ds6-fb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd
17:40<@TrueBrain>I still love H.G. Wells .. he wrote The Timemachine :)
17:40-!-divo [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
17:40<Wolf01>http://wolf01.game-host.org/OTTD_related/ship_lifter.png what do you think?
17:40<Fuco>when i realise he wrote about moon travels 150 years ago, its kinda cool
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: he was an optimist...
17:40<alphabeat>hey.. i have a stupid question ...
17:40<Wolf01>I should purchase some books of H.G. Wells
17:41<Fuco>war of the worlds?
17:41<alphabeat>how do i build planes in Transport Tycoon?
17:41<@Bjarni>Wolf01: nice pink graphics... but would you like to code support for this?
17:41<Fuco>alphabeat, click on hangar on airport
17:41<@Bjarni>alphabeat: in airports
17:41<@TrueBrain>did you know that Alice in Wonderland in fact is a book about 'parallel universe'?
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: absolutely not worth the effort
17:42<@TrueBrain>Carroll was a scienest, and he wondered how a parallel universe would be .. and he wrote a book out of it
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>alphabeat: the airport has a hangar
17:42<alphabeat>oh.. ups :p spend an hour trying to figure it out. thanks :)
17:42-!-KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-86-147.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:42<@TrueBrain>alphabeat: http://wiki.openttd.org/ <- nice website ;)
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17:42<Eddi|zuHause>aqueducts totally need more depth perception...
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>i mean they are the flattest bridges of all, and have the smallest pillars
17:43<Fuco>you think he came up with parallel universes in 1870?
17:44<@Bjarni>yeah
17:44<@Bjarni>well
17:44<@TrueBrain>Fuco: I am pretty sure he did :)
17:44<@Bjarni>he learned the hard way when he visited one
17:44<@TrueBrain>it is widely known he talked about it a lot
17:44<Fuco>hmm
17:44-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:44<Fuco>i think the idea is not such old
17:44<Fuco>i thought*
17:44<Fuco>if you're right :P
17:44<@TrueBrain>most of such ideas are much older than you expect :)
17:45<Fuco>yea true..
17:45<@TrueBrain>well, I can't 100% proof it to you,a s we can't visit him :p
17:45<@TrueBrain>hehe :)
17:45<@Bjarni>we can
17:45<Fuco>back they they just didn't have means to proof it
17:45<@Bjarni>where is he burried?
17:45<Fuco>no computers and such
17:45<@TrueBrain>Fuco: in the old days, people visualised more by thinking
17:45<@TrueBrain>rather then making models
17:45<@Bjarni>how would you use a computer to proof a parallel universe?
17:45<@TrueBrain>it got us pretty far :)
17:45<Fuco>Bjarni: not just that
17:45<@TrueBrain>I somehow like it .. just thinking about it :)
17:46<Fuco>but its a lot easier now
17:46<@TrueBrain>take Einstein. He just wondered what would happen if you would be sitting on a foton
17:46<@TrueBrain>an insane idea :) But .. just a mind experiment
17:46<@Bjarni>the idea of a computer and programming came 150 years ago
17:46<Fuco>yea
17:46<Fuco>thats what im talking about.. but the first machine was build 50 yrs ago
17:46<Fuco>60*
17:47<Fuco>i saw some schematics for some "mechanical" computer
17:47<@Bjarni>also the mechanical computer... it was built in a small model with limited power and blueprints were made for a real one
17:47<@Bjarni>then they failed to build it because instead of building it the inventor tried to alter it
17:47<Fuco>yea
17:47<@Bjarni>now somebody built one out of the blueprints and it works
17:48<Fuco>Guy called babbage or something
17:48<Fuco>if i recall corectly
17:48<@Bjarni>something like that
17:48<@TrueBrain>don't you just love history? :)
17:48<@Bjarni>yeah
17:48<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: I really hope that was a rhetorical question
17:49<@Bjarni>at least if it was aimed at me ;)
17:49<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: no, I want an answer!!
17:49<@TrueBrain>NOW!
17:49<@TrueBrain>:s
17:50<Fuco>i didn't like it back on highschool
17:50<@TrueBrain>I tried to read some basics of M-string .. omg .. really :p
17:50<Fuco>lots of pointless learning
17:50<@TrueBrain>Fuco: I should rephrase: don't you just love history you care about? :p
17:50<Fuco>yea :D
17:50<@Bjarni>hehe
17:50<Fuco>that's better
17:50<@Bjarni>well we should
17:51<@Bjarni>I didn't always like history in school. Sometimes it was as pointless as geography
17:51<Fuco>M-string is really crazy stuff
17:51<@Bjarni>like I need to know the names of the oasis in Sahara :s
17:51<Fuco>i saw some BBC documentaries
17:51<@Bjarni>*oasises
17:52<@TrueBrain>11 dimensions to explain everything ... somehow it requires respect, just reading that
17:52<Fuco>hm..we used to learn about soil fertility
17:52<Fuco>thats pointles
17:52<@TrueBrain>lucky enough they proofed it never will be 12 :p
17:52<Fuco>unless you're not farmer
17:52<Fuco>or something
17:52<@Bjarni>actually soil fertility is important
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>what's the problem with 11 dimensions? you just assume indefinite dimensions and have 11 as a simple special case
17:53<@Bjarni>unless you don't have a garden
17:53<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: as I just said, lucky they proofed it never will be 12 (or 13, or any other higher value than 11 :p)
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>i have actually no idea how they got to the number of 11, or what they wanted to explain with that...
17:54-!-KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-42-225.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
17:54<@TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: unification of Einstein and Schodiger
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>missing a couple of letters ;)
17:54<@TrueBrain>(nasty way of saying: quantum mechanics and general relativity)
17:54<@TrueBrain>as I said, my english fails today :p
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>both people were actually german ;)
17:55<@TrueBrain>sadly enough, yes ..
17:55<Fuco>eddi, if equations dont work for 3 or 4, just add a couple until its fine :P
17:55<@Bjarni>so basically it's about finding the theory of everything?
17:55<Fuco>yea
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>Fuco: you don't have to tell me... i don't have a problem with 1500 dimensions...
17:56<Fuco>it's believed that m-theory should be that
17:56<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: M-theory is one of the suggestions for the theory of everything yes
17:56<@TrueBrain>string-theory is the other one
17:56<@TrueBrain>(10 dimensions)
17:56<Fuco>they are kinda similar
17:56<Fuco>at least for me
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>you know, einstein got the nobel prize, but not for his theory of relativity, because the nobel comittee did not understand it.
17:56<Fuco>im not so much into it
17:57<@Bjarni>so if everything can be explained by 11 dimensions then why do we live in a 3 dimensional world?
17:57<@TrueBrain>hehe, the one has one more dimension :p
17:57<@TrueBrain>explaining one thing more :p
17:57<@TrueBrain>but yeah, you are right Fuco :)
17:57<Fuco>that other are so small you cant "feel" them
17:57<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: and why wouldn't we? :p
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: just because you have a 3-dimensional perception does not mean the world is 3-dimensional
17:57<@TrueBrain>but yeah, the 'big bang' supposedly crashed them into VERY VERY small units :)
17:57<@Bjarni>so Q lives in a 11D world?
17:58<@Bjarni>that explains a lot
17:58<@TrueBrain>Q lives in StarTrek
17:58<Fuco>and btw, its Schrodenger not Schodiger (if you mean the guy with "cat experiment")
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>in fact, adding a 4th dimension is really easy
17:58<Fuco>and he's austrian
17:58<@TrueBrain>Fuco: Eddi|zuHause already said I missed a few letters :) I fail to translate today :)
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>Schrödinger
17:58<Fuco>yea i cant write that ``o
17:58<@Bjarni>ö
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>you can't write an i either ;)
17:59<Fuco>don't have german keyboard
17:59<@Bjarni>ï
17:59<@TrueBrain>austrian? I don't know the english word, but the country next to swiss you mean, I hope
17:59<@Bjarni>I don't have a German keyboard either
17:59<@TrueBrain>"Wenen" :p
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17:59<@Bjarni>Wenen?
18:00<@TrueBrain>capital of that country
18:00<@Bjarni>is that Vienna?
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>"greater germany" ;)
18:00<@TrueBrain>which I still don't know the english word for :p
18:00<Fuco>vienna
18:00<Fuco>ye
18:00<Fuco>south from czech
18:00<@Bjarni>Austria-Hungarian empire?
18:00<@TrueBrain>Fuco: so German enough for me :p
18:00<Fuco>Bjarni: before WW1 yes
18:01<@TrueBrain>(I hate the German language .. I can't help it .. nothing personal :))
18:01<Fuco>heh
18:01<Fuco>i don't like it either
18:01<@TrueBrain>was forced to learn it for 3 years
18:01<Fuco>but can understand simple text
18:01<@TrueBrain>Didn't like it then, don't like it now :p
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>austria belonged to germany until austria and prussia had difficulties dividing newly conquered danish territory between them ;)
18:02<@Bjarni>now I should say something about Dutch sounding like a German trying to speak Danish while he has an infection in his throat :P
18:02<@TrueBrain>weird english words :
18:02<@TrueBrain>p
18:02<@TrueBrain>"Oostenrijk" <- see, that is readable :p
18:02<@Bjarni>ahh
18:02<@Bjarni>there
18:02<@TrueBrain>Bjarni: don't worry, the dutch language sucks too
18:02<@TrueBrain>but at least we learn 4 languages at school :)
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>Österreich, yes
18:03<Fuco>dutch is netherland right?
18:03<@TrueBrain>Netherlands, yes
18:03<@TrueBrain>Holland
18:03<@TrueBrain>Les Pays-Bas
18:03<@TrueBrain>Niederlande
18:03<@TrueBrain>how ever you want it :p
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>there used to be "Austrian Netherlands"
18:03<@Bjarni>I found a stamp that said Österreich and "20 Kronor"... quite interesting
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>but that is more what is now belgium
18:03<Fuco>my cousin moved there, heh
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18:04<@Bjarni>a little research revealed that it was a worthless one from the WW1 era
18:04<@TrueBrain>I always wondered, if a country calls itself, say, "France", how come that we call it "Frankrijk"? For example?
18:04-!-Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
18:04<@TrueBrain>how does naming a country in a native language work ...
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18:04<Fuco>heh, interesting
18:05<@Bjarni>yeah
18:05<@Bjarni>well
18:05<Fuco>ie, in english austria is austria, and in my language is "rakusko".. those two are totally different
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>the ways are different...
18:05<@Bjarni>"Frankrijk" is the "reich" of the "frank"
18:05<@Bjarni>if you get what I mean
18:05-!-De_Ghost [~s@76-10-132-233.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:05<@Bjarni>it's as simple as that
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>like the name "Deutsch" evolved around the 12th century
18:06<@TrueBrain>how did it ever become "German" ..
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>that's the roman's fault
18:06<@TrueBrain>blame it on them :p
18:06<@TrueBrain>haha :)
18:06<@Bjarni>because Germany is a fucked up name when it comes to what it's called elsewhere :P
18:06<@Bjarni>In Danish it's called "Tyskland"
18:07<@TrueBrain>well, anyway, it was nice talking to you guys :) Lovely off-topic, I am suprised we didn't get banned :p Either way, going to bed :) Have a good night!
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>night
18:07<ln>gn, TB
18:07<@Bjarni>Tatitus writes about an island in the north of Germania called Scandia (which evolved into the name Scandinavia)
18:07<@TrueBrain>And Fuco, nice talking to you too :) (as in, it is not the first time I talk to Bjarni and Eddi|zuHause about random offtopic stuff :p)
18:07<@Bjarni>this tells us that the name "Skåne" is at least 2000 years old
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18:08<Fuco>heh :P
18:08<Fuco>practicing my english :D
18:08<@Bjarni>well
18:08<@Bjarni>you are doing better at English than I am at Slovakian so let's stick to English
18:08<Fuco>:P
18:08<dragonhorseboy>how hard could it be to modify an existing coach into having cab controls at one end? ^-^
18:09<@Bjarni>that depends
18:09<@Bjarni>in real life it would be somewhat easy to do and difficult to get approved
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, before the 12th century, the german called themselves "Franken" (as they had common roots with the french, only they adopted the roman languages of the territory they invaded)
18:10<ln>why are the Star Trek consoles and walls filled with explosives?
18:10<@Bjarni>I wondered about the same thing
18:10<Fuco>lol
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>ln: to make better special effects
18:10<@Bjarni>it appears illogical
18:10<Fuco>it's autodesctruction
18:10<dragonhorseboy>bjarni hmm well rebuild existing older coach verus funding a new coach with cab control from start ... I guess thats a good related question hm? ^-^
18:10<@Bjarni>specially on Vulcan ships
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18:11<ln>like the #1 rule for staying alive in a battle: stay far away from the walls and consoles.
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: especially in the early days of push-pull service, that was not an uncommon approach
18:12<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14057 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix: NewGRF text stack's "push word" didn't move the data around properly (minime)
18:12<@Bjarni>ln: also why is the bridge on the top and not in the middle where it's better protected?
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>but nowadays, building a new one is probably cheaper than modifying an old one (and getting it safe enough)
18:12<dragonhorseboy>eddi or these few odd consists where the locomotive is actually in the middle of the train oddly enough
18:13<dragonhorseboy>a related one is the ET87 which is a bit more or less two coaches with a small passenger electric cab sandwiched in middle
18:13<@Bjarni>I have a picture of a train consisting of 3 units.... two steering cars and a diesel locomotive in the middle... this was quite common (on the now closed line)
18:14<@Bjarni>the drivers didn't like to drive the locomotive as they more or less was in the same room as the diesel engine
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>that's a cool reason ;)
18:14<@Bjarni>no
18:14<@Bjarni>hot and noisy
18:15<@Bjarni>not to mention a whole lot of vibrations
18:15<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14058 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2224]: NewGRF callback 23 didn't use the NewGRF compatible text stack (minime)
18:15<@Bjarni>hmmm
18:15<@Bjarni>hot, noisy and vibrating.... don't get the wrong idea :P
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: i know that they did put cabs in existing wagons for the Halle-Leipzig route after the war (around 1950s, where the reelectrification began)
18:17<dragonhorseboy>eddi heh well dunno what someone might think but one of the weird north america kind idea I had was like this...
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>a little later the new doubledecker consists were ready, which had a cab from the beginning
18:18<@Bjarni>heh
18:18<dragonhorseboy>cab-converted coach + coach + repowered F7B (with motor located offset for wider walkway on other side) + coach + cab-converted coach .... would be an odd sight if there was a real one
18:18<@Bjarni>while searching for such a picture online I found.... a picture of myself
18:18<@Bjarni>now that's natural :P
18:20<dragonhorseboy>eddi which of I've got the article (from 'contentional model railway' issue, the sister of the british version) on early post-war attempt at doubledecker cars on the DB railroad ... seem no more were made after the initial ones especially due to the headspaces present
18:21<dragonhorseboy>probably finally rectified that issue with the newer doubledeck cars for diesel&electric consists years later
18:21<@Bjarni>http://www.slangerupbanen.dk/xpix/xevpfm03.jpg <-- well I found a picture of the diesel locomotive without steering cars
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18:22<Eddi|zuHause>no, the LBE pre-war doubledecker wagons were the only WEST german double deckers, because the wagon factory was in Görlitz, so it belonged to east germany after the war
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18:22<Eddi|zuHause>they continued the development of the double decker wagons, and now sell them into the whole world
18:23<Fuco>it seems like you know what you're talking about :P
18:23<Fuco>coz i dont understanad a single sentence
18:23<Fuco>:(
18:24<dragonhorseboy>heh well the article said that very few models were ever released of these ... especially with Overlands making (brass as typical usual) a blue model
18:24<@Bjarni>I think the issue is that Eddi|zuHause talks about something we talked about hours ago
18:25<@Bjarni>and I talked with dragonhorseboy about something else and I think we got a bit out of sync
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>i've read on this issue multiple times already
18:25<@Bjarni>meaning we are 3 people not talking about the same thing :P
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18:25<dragonhorseboy>bjarni re that steering cars --- I only can say one thing: that is one weird locomotive!
18:26<@Bjarni>yeah
18:26<@Bjarni>they had some old not so good locomotives
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>it does not look that unusual, except again for that asymmetric light, and the passenger wagon windows
18:27<@Bjarni>when they ran out of money and was given to the state railroad company (preventing a closure) I think they scrapped the locomotives more or less right away
18:27<@Bjarni>only 2 headlights were common in Denmark at that time
18:28<@Bjarni>the 3rd was introduced when Germany got the idea to use 3
18:28<dragonhorseboy>bjarni well if there's one of several particular passenger locomotive body I think I like...its on the japan railroad...let me see where that photo was again...
18:30<@Bjarni>too bad it looks like there aren't any pictures of HFHJ M7 online. The railroad (named HFHJ) needed a small train for trains with few expected passengers so they added an engine in a passenger wagon and stuff to steer it in each end
18:30<@Bjarni>the result looked a bit funny
18:30<@Bjarni>worked ok but only when it didn't connect to anything
18:30<@Bjarni>well... it worked
18:30<@Bjarni>but the staff didn't like it :P
18:33<dragonhorseboy>here bjarni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:OER_RomanceCar_Enoshima_-LSE_old_color-.jpg ... can we say front-seating-like-a-monorail now? :p
18:33<@Bjarni>ahh those
18:33<dragonhorseboy>here's another one .. cab located a bit further inward: http://www.japanrailmodelers.org/photos/F_Odayku/pages/page_1.html
18:33<@Bjarni>they have several versions of those
18:34<@Bjarni>and time after time they broke the world speed record on narrow gauge
18:34<@Bjarni>the top speed of the fastest is around 180 km/h and they drive on 1067 mm gauge
18:35<@Bjarni>I like this part best: it has level crossings inside Tokyo
18:35<dragonhorseboy>well I still never can believe all of these damned commuter trains in japan .. especially when there's 20+ cars in each sets and they're not far apart schedules-wise either
18:35<@Bjarni>with speed limits around 100 km/h
18:35<dragonhorseboy>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JRE-E231-500-for-JRyamanote-line.jpg
18:38<@Bjarni>dragonhorseboy: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gykKxWpjN_E <-- this is the driver boarding the cab
18:39<@Bjarni>inside those trains
18:39<@Bjarni>luckily he isn't fat ;)
18:39<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy, advice: do not take that train at midnight on thursday evenings departing from Shinjuku
18:39<@Bjarni>hehe
18:39<@Bjarni>why not? :)
18:39<dragonhorseboy>rubidium.... sardine I'm going to guess?
18:39<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: yup
18:40<@Bjarni>well
18:40<@Bjarni>it could be worse
18:40<@Rubidium>problem was that I needed to go further than 99% of the passengers on that train
18:40<@Bjarni>but sardine in a Japanese train is... well. tight
18:40<@Rubidium>so it took quite some effort to actually stay in the train at that station
18:40<@Bjarni>lol
18:40<@Rubidium>getting in the train was easy
18:40<dragonhorseboy>rubidium ... like as in "there's not even a centimeter to move at all except when the doors opens"?
18:40<@Rubidium>just take the route of the least effort
18:41<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: yes
18:41<dragonhorseboy>rubidium I was never and still am not really interested in china/japan for holiday places anyway so don't worry about it ^_^
18:41<@Rubidium>those trains accelerate quite violently and when it's not busy you can't keep standing without holding the handlebars
18:41<dragonhorseboy>rubidium let me tell you something tho...
18:41<@Bjarni>Rubidium: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GdAvFLXlJvU <-- something like this?
18:42<@Rubidium>but that thursday night I didn't need to hold them
18:42<dragonhorseboy>don't bother asking for a car lift on some weekends unless you like to try sit as the fourth person in the rear seats :p
18:42<@Rubidium>Bjarni: somewhat like that yes
18:42<Dred_furst>How would you get a server to generate a new random map every time?
18:43<@Rubidium>but it actually left 50% on the platform waiting instead of being able to take everyone
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18:43<dragonhorseboy>actually..you know what... I did *once* have one recent ford taurus sedan with seven thinner people in it on an old side country road
18:43<dragonhorseboy>3 up front (aye..column shifter) and 4 in rear row
18:43<dragonhorseboy>hehe
18:44<@Bjarni>so you drove 6 passengers?
18:44<@Bjarni>at once
18:44<dragonhorseboy>yeah
18:44<@Bjarni>I once drove 400 passengers at once... beat that :P
18:45<dragonhorseboy>bjarni..thats not a car
18:45<dragonhorseboy>:p
18:45<@Bjarni>I know
18:45<@Bjarni>it's something way better
18:45<@Bjarni>because it takes priority over cars
18:46<@Bjarni>and it's still considered a vehicle
18:46<@Bjarni>or a row of vehicles
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>we once were 8 people in a Renault Clio
18:46<dragonhorseboy>can it be driven with a car license? :D
18:46<dragonhorseboy>hehehe
18:48<@Bjarni><dragonhorseboy> can it be driven with a car license? :D <-- no because you actually have to proof that you can drive it to be allowed to drive
18:48<dragonhorseboy>well the vehicle I'm looking at for myself finally only sits 2 in the cab alone :p
18:48<dragonhorseboy>heh
18:49<dragonhorseboy>and I don't think the law quite even allows cargobed passengers anymore
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>afaik in germany you can take up to 8 people on the cargo plane of a truck, as long as it has benches
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>above 8 passengers, you need a bus license
18:51<dragonhorseboy>hm lucky germany :p
18:52<@Bjarni>I think it's the same in Denmark
18:52<dragonhorseboy>in here as I recall any pickup bed riding passengers usually gets the police attention often
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>funny thing about that, you can drive a bus without a bus license, as long as there are fewer than 8 passengers in the bus ;)
18:53<dragonhorseboy>eddi well there had to be some way to differ the passenger verus cargo version of the same vehicle body so figured
18:53<ln>i've been on a truck with 29 other people.
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>(the bus is usually big enough that you need a truck license to drive it, though)
18:53<dragonhorseboy>thats why extended vans can be seen often for commerical purposes but very few for 12-passengers seating .. even although both are just the same van chassis
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18:55<dragonhorseboy>well eddi would you like to see what kind of vehicle I'm looking at? ;)
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>probably not ;)
18:56<@Bjarni>is it a Tesla Roadster?
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>ln: i've been on a horse carriage with 10 people playing instruments ;)
18:57<dragonhorseboy>bjarni nope ... too limited
18:57<@Bjarni>I think so too
18:57<dragonhorseboy>bjarni here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuce_and_a_half
18:57<@Bjarni>but then I don't care :P
18:57<dragonhorseboy>:p
19:00<@Bjarni>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEZfxRCzdjw <-- I think we need railroad crossings of that size in OTTD
19:01<Suisse>huhu
19:03<@Bjarni>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2dVRJfut44 <-- this one has a decent size too
19:03<@Bjarni>(and no, it's not a tram)
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19:11<@Bjarni>hah
19:12<Wolf01>'night
19:12<@Bjarni>I just have to post a link and the channel dies
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19:12<dragonhorseboy>:p
19:12<dragonhorseboy>I dunno what else to say in here thats all bjarni
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19:19<@Bjarni>with all your talk I get sleepy
19:19<@Bjarni>goodnight
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19:23<@orudge>hmm, a sudden burst of donations in the past 10 minutes
19:31*Rubidium hopes it doesn't overwhelm orudge
19:34<Sacro>orudge: bukake?
19:36<Yexo>orudge: how much did you get already?
19:45<@Belugas>mmmh... i've got some bugs on arctic with pikka's grfs
19:45*Belugas stars up debugger
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19:51<@orudge>we have about £100 so far, Yexo
19:52<Yexo>nice, and that within only a few hours
19:52<@orudge>indeed
19:53<@orudge>last year we got about £300 in 24 hours
19:53<@orudge>which wass trather good
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19:53<SquireJames>Small question, where is the extended date stored in GRFs that have pre-1920 vehicles (for OTTD naturally)
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19:54<@orudge>bah
19:54<@orudge>not sure how that happened
19:54<@orudge>anyway
19:54<@orudge>£300 in about 24 hours, twas good
19:56<Yexo>indeed. I'm curious how long it'll take this time
20:01<SquireJames>Anyone?
20:08<Tekky>Is this what you are looking for? http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Trains#Long_format_introduction_date_2A_
20:10<Tekky>SquireJames: I have no experience with programming NewGRFs, but to me this sounds like the info you asked for.
20:14<SquireJames>thats the one :)
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20:29<fmauNeko>legal question: the openttd logo is totally free ?
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20:36<Tekky>I guess it is..... or is the logo a modification of the original TTD logo? In that case, it is not free....
20:36<Tekky>Either way, I don't think you will run into any trouble by using it.
20:37<@orudge>fundraiser 25% of the way to its target
20:38<Tekky>nice :-) How much of the donation does Paypal keep when donating via PayPal?
20:39<@orudge>tends to be around 30p + between 3-5%, I think. eg, £10 becomes £9.46 or so.
20:40<Tekky>ah, that's not bad.....
20:41<Tekky>it used to be a big pain to send money into another country.... my Bank here in Germany charged so much for a bank transfer that it was not worth sending small amounts of money.
20:43<@orudge>mh
20:43<@orudge>I tend to receive a few bank transfers from abroad, and costs aren't so bad these days
20:43<@orudge>but PayPal etc is more convenient
20:43<Tekky>Ah, you have 3 Paypal accounts, one for US$, one for GBP and one for EUR. That saves the charges for currency conversion.....
20:46<Tekky>I'm afraid that it will take 3 days before I can donate, because I first have to send money from my bank account to my Paypal account. I'm afraid the fundraiser will be over by then, judging by the speed of the current fundraising....
20:47<Tekky>Oh well, I guess I can just donate to the fundraising of the forums instead, then :-)
20:49<fmauNeko>somebody has already tried tp
20:49<fmauNeko>to*
20:49<fmauNeko>use the ruby's UDPSocket to get game info ?
20:50<@orudge>Tekky: forum donations are very much appreciated. OpenTTD also accepts non-fundraiser donations, of course. :)
20:51<Tekky>orudge: By the way, now that both TTDPatch and OpenTTD have support for PBS, I'm afraid that you will have to update all your complex track layouts on your web page :-)
20:52<Tekky>Strangely, I haven't seen anyone ever post complex PBS track layouts ever......
20:52<Tekky>I guess track layouts don't have to be complex anymore, now that we have PBS :-)
20:53<@orudge>Tekky: heh, well, I need to figure out YAPP, I did start a game the other week, but then YAPP was updated and my saved game broken. Haven't had time since...
20:53<Ailure>wait
20:53<Ailure>PBS support in openTTD?
20:53<Tekky>orudge: You are aware that YAPP is now in trunk and that your savegames will therefore never break anymore?
20:54<Tekky>Ailure: Yes, YAPP (Yet Another PBS Patch) is now officially in the latest nightly of OpenTTD.
20:54<Ailure>the end is near then
20:54<@orudge>Tekky of course, yes
20:54<@orudge>I just haven't had time to play since ;0
20:54<@orudge>* ;)
20:55<Tekky>Ailure: Hehe, you don't like PBS signals?
20:56<Ailure>I admittly didn't care for them being implemented, but I don't have any dislike for them :p
20:56<@Belugas>Tekky, i think Ailure is pointing at the end ot TTDP
20:56<Ailure>I just know that people have bugged about it for as long I been aware of openTTD, which I started to play back in the 0.3 days
20:56<@Belugas>altough i do not agree
20:56*orudge watches House
20:57<Ailure>no no
20:57<Ailure>what I meant, it's one of those features that would "never" be implemented
20:57<Ailure>;)
20:57<@Belugas>oh... haaa... ok
20:57<@Belugas>well
20:58<Ailure>Some people seem to be spiteful for openTTD stealing TTDpatch spotlight but ah well
20:58-!-Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@ndb.demon.nl] has quit [Quit: Zzz]
20:58<Ailure>TTDPatch devolopment have slowed down from what I seen, which I find a shame too
20:58<Tekky>Today I was surprised to find out that most of the functionality of YAPP has already been in TTDPatch for ages. The only missing feature was bi-directional stations, but also this functionality has been recently included into TTDPatch (called "through signals"): http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ThroughSignals:Alpha
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20:59<Ailure>hmm
20:59<Ailure>Intresting
21:00<Ailure>Seems to be a less hackful way of implementing birectional stations
21:00<Fuco>i think its just openttd developement seems to be much easier
21:00<Ailure>I done a few bidirectional stations, but they usually involve having a dummy line for the signals
21:00<Tekky>with bi-directional stations I mean bi-directional pass through (non-terminus) stations
21:01<Tekky>Ailure: yes, such dummy lines are no longer necessary with TTDPatch through signals and in YAPP (OpenTTD)
21:01<Ailure>ah
21:01<Ailure>I never found bidrectional stations too effecient, and only do them for the looks and when I want to break out of the ro-ro/terminus mold
21:02<Tekky>well, they are very efficient now, with PBS :-)
21:03<@Belugas>Fuco, i wold say that it's easier when a lot of people are helping
21:03<Fuco>well, i've heard that ttdp is basicaly assembly(?), while ottd is c++
21:03<@Belugas>ttdp guys have quite a limited coders pool.
21:03<@Belugas>language does not matter
21:04<@Belugas>ttpd does have parts written in C too
21:04<Fuco>oh it does.. asm vs c++ .. its LOT easier to do a c++ patches and stuff
21:04<Fuco>also, more ppl knows that
21:04<Fuco>know*
21:04<Tekky>The only thing that you can't do (yet) with PBS is implement priority lines such as these: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Advanced_Main_Line_Depot
21:04<Fuco>i've just heard, i don't know much about developement of either one
21:05<@Belugas>no, language does not matter. what matters is how well you know the code yo are working on
21:05<@Belugas>and TTD is quite a beast to handle
21:05<Fuco>yea well
21:05<@Belugas>true, open starts to get easier to work with
21:05<Fennec>Language /can/ matter. It's just seldom the most important thing.
21:05<@Belugas>but that doe snot say it's easier than asm
21:06<Tekky>For such priority lines, you do need presignals and not PBS signals. However, I consider such priority lines an ugly hack. I hope that OpenTTD will soon offer a better possibility for implementing train priorities.... There have already been several suggestions on how to do this.
21:06<Fuco>well, ttdp was RE-ed from original?
21:06<@Belugas>no
21:06<@Belugas>it sits on top of it
21:06<Fuco>ah
21:06<@Belugas>you do need the original exe
21:07<@Belugas>it is really a patch
21:07<Fuco>so it's really a patch
21:07<Fuco>;)
21:07<@Belugas>hehe
21:07<@Belugas>ueah
21:07<Fuco>and ottd was done from scratch?
21:07<@Belugas>nope
21:07<Tekky>it was decompiled into C, as far as I know.
21:07<@Belugas>it is from a de-assembly of the origina;
21:07<@Belugas>l
21:08<@Belugas>and reconstructed in c,
21:08<Fuco>ah
21:08<@Belugas>and in c++ relatively shortly
21:08<Fuco>yea, but its "quite" similar
21:08<Fuco>at least, making c routines into c++ isn't that hard
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21:09<@Belugas>indeed not
21:09<@Belugas>it's more about taking advantages of the features of c++
21:10<Fuco>yea
21:10<Fennec>C++ would make some sense for OpenTTD but it wasn't done so ho hum ah well. :)
21:10<@Belugas>hum?
21:10<Fennec>-- or was it? *thinks it's plain C*
21:10*Fennec -- never paid THAT much attention silly me could be wrong
21:10<Lakie>I think Open is C++
21:11<Fuco>don't make me download the source! :D
21:11<Lakie>Most of it is not OOP however if thats what you were getting at?
21:11<@Belugas>open is C with a growing flavor of C++
21:11<@Belugas>hey Lakie :)
21:11<Lakie>Hi Belugas. :)
21:11<@Belugas>it does not need to be OOP all the way
21:12<@Belugas>if it does not serve a purpose, it's silly to change just for changing
21:12<Tekky>I'm currently studying YAPF which makes heavy use of C++ templates, which I find very heard to understand :-(
21:12<Lakie>Indeed, some things are quite fine as they are.
21:12*Belugas nods
21:12<Tekky>heard = hard
21:12<Lakie>Templates are fun
21:12<Fuco>yea, i've never understood that
21:12<Fuco>templates
21:12<@Belugas>i'm starting to myself
21:12<@Belugas>not easy
21:12<Lakie>Hmm?
21:12<@Belugas>templates
21:13*Lakie found generics and templates fairly simple to understand writing good ones no so good.
21:13<@Belugas>mmh... compiling in release takes AGES
21:13<Lakie>The concept is using a generic set of code which you then set the type for later
21:13<Lakie>Hehe
21:13<@Belugas>what do you call "generic" ?
21:13<Lakie>Ah
21:13<Fennec>Vehicles could be done in a decently OOish way.
21:14<Lakie>Its the C# equvilent sorry.
21:15<@Belugas>ok
21:15<Tekky>I plan to merge the YAPF cache and the PBS reservation mechanism, to make PBS reservations more efficient. But I still haven't understood the YAPF template code :-(
21:15<@Belugas>Fennec, do you think they are not already oop'ed?
21:15<@Belugas>Tekky, take all your time and do it right :)
21:16<Fennec>mm, there's mild OO and then there's serious OO :)
21:16*Fennec should look some time.
21:16<Fuco>ah the silly pathfinders.. :P
21:16<Tekky>Belugas: I'll try :)
21:16<Fuco>lots of graph theory i assume
21:17<@Belugas>Fennec, sorry to be rude, but: it's easy to critisize something. it's another to propose alernative
21:17<Fennec>sorry
21:17<@Belugas>plus, once again, change for change is stupid
21:18<Fennec>I'm not trying to be critical
21:18<Fennec>I'm sure it's all fine. :)
21:18<@Belugas>change for a purpose is acceptable
21:18<Lakie>It does not need to be poor OOP, I believe in some changes making it OOP would actually slow it down.
21:18<Lakie>(Because of the extra time creating, destroying and handling objects).
21:19*Lakie hides
21:19*Belugas agrees with Lakie
21:19<Fuco>Lakie, its all about how you design it
21:19<Fuco>might me a bit slower, but who cares about speed nowadays
21:20<Fennec>#openttdcoop does :P
21:20<Fuco>heh ;d
21:20<Tekky>Fuco: I disagree with the last satement of Fuco :)
21:20<Fennec>when they put 800 trains in a game :P
21:20-!-divo [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:20<Tekky>yes, for example if you do that :)
21:21<Fuco>we can be glad ottd is not full 3d then :D
21:21<Lakie>OpenTTD would not work well in full 3d.
21:21<Fuco>but anyway, thats for the GPU, so it wouldn't be such different
21:21<Lakie>Very few games have full 3d with the same sort of view
21:22<Fuco>i like the graphics as they are
21:22<Fuco>oldschool
21:22<Fuco>nice and clear
21:22<Fennec>ok ppl just one moment AGAIN FOR CLARIFICATION by my earlier statement I was attempting to expose a rationale for being OO with a program like OpenTTD and NOT SAYING that OpenTTD's handling of vehicles is in any way suboptimal!!!!
21:22<Lakie>8bbp project looks ace.
21:22<Fennec>sorry. :(
21:22<@Belugas>[21:20] <Fuco> might me a bit slower, but who cares about speed nowadays <- we do ;0
21:22<Fuco>ah stop blaming me
21:22<Fuco>:D
21:23<Fuco>it was only an ironical statement... when you look at some new games
21:23<Fuco>optimalisation is truely "unknown" therm today
21:23<Fuco>crysis or supreme comander comes in my mind
21:23<@Belugas>it's ok, Fennec :)
21:24<Lakie>Its true that game designers don't optimise as much as in the past, Fuco
21:24<Lakie>But they are optimised over just raw.
21:24<Fuco>yea, back in the 386 times
21:24<Fuco>:D
21:24<Lakie>Heh
21:24<Fennec>that /seemed/ to be a momentarily relevant point of conversation. anywho.
21:24<@Belugas>they tend to rely on compilers to do the job, i tik
21:24<@Belugas>think
21:25<Fennec>today you want to do /smart/ optimizations
21:25<Lakie>Probably, but compilers won't fix poor code for them.
21:25*Lakie hides
21:25<Fennec>which means profiling to see where the Slow is
21:25<@Belugas>indeed not :)
21:25<Fennec>and fixing /that/
21:25<@Belugas>SmatZ does a very good job at that
21:25<@Belugas>so does Rubidium
21:25<Tekky>It would be nice to seperate the graphics rendering from the rest of the game engine, so that the graphics renderer could easily be interchanged with a 3D graphics renderer..... However, I'm afraid that this would be a lot of work :-(
21:25<Fennec>rather than trying to shave off microseconds from a call that happens twice by hacking it to pieces.
21:26<@Belugas>but then, Rubidium does a good job at ...well... the whole stuff...
21:26<Fennec>Tekky: indubitably!
21:26<Fennec>Tekky: most worthwhile stuffs is :)
21:26<Fuco>Tekky, i was thinking about that yesterday :D
21:26<Fennec>Tekky: that, or "already done"
21:26<Fuco>kinda like linux
21:26<Fennec>Tekky: or possibly "we didn't think of that" but anyway :)
21:26<Fuco>core and graphics are independent
21:27<@Belugas>not in ottd, they are quite intertwined
21:27<@Belugas>well.. in TTD in general
21:27<Tekky>I think it would be great to have 3D graphics with a rotatable camera for high-end machines, but keep the old graphics for low-end machines.
21:27<@Belugas>and a 3d renderer? forget that :)
21:28<Fuco>it wouldn't be the good olt tt anymore.. with all the fancy 3d graphics
21:28<@Belugas>indeed not
21:28<Tekky>who said the 3D graphics would be fancy? :-) I was thinking of 3D graphics without textures, as a start. :-)
21:28<Fuco>and i cant imagine how curves should be handled
21:28<Fuco>imagine 2*45 in 3d.. bleh
21:29<Tekky>I'd simply draw the engine of a train as a red box and the carriages of the train as black boxes :-)
21:29<Fuco>:P
21:29<Fuco>btw, ottd is now opengl rendered?
21:29<Tekky>and the houses would also be boxes :-) Well, cubes to be exact.
21:30<Tekky>no, it uses DirectDraw with Win32 and SDL with all other platforms.
21:31<Fuco>some day we may see it in 3d.. that will atract even more ppl to play the game
21:31<Fuco>coz the game is awesome
21:31<Fuco>i mean all the "engine"
21:31<Fuco>but the graphics are sort of old
21:32<Tekky>There have been efforts to make a 3D Clone of OpenTTD and several forums have been created for this project: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=56
21:32<Tekky>But I'm afraid this project has dies :-(
21:32<Fuco>transport empire?
21:32<Tekky>dies = died
21:32<Fuco>i've heard about it
21:32<Tekky>yes, Transport Empire.
21:32<@Belugas>can you imagine defining all the 3ds of all the obecjts of the game? would be an enormous job
21:32<Fuco>yea
21:32<Fuco>thats the hard part
21:32<@Belugas>there are other games of trians that are 3d
21:32<Fuco>eats lots of time
21:33<Fuco>and not worth at all
21:33<Tekky>Belugas: As I said, I would use untextured boxes as a start :-)
21:34<@Belugas>there is nothing stoping you to even start right now, Tekky. DOing a fork of OpenTTD is permitted :)
21:34<Fuco>remaking all gfrs into 3d boxes will take some time too :P
21:34<@Belugas>tell that to Zephiris ;)
21:35<Tekky>But I think the best solution would be to try to seperate the graphics rendering in OpenTTD from the rest of the game engine. This would allow the graphics rendering to be interchanged with a 3D renderer, but it would also OpenTTD to use dual-core processors: One core for the graphics, one core for the game engine....
21:35<@Belugas>no no no no no no no!@!!!!
21:35<@Belugas>you do that, you're dead!
21:36<Fennec>hm?
21:36<Tekky>lol, why that? :)
21:36<@Belugas>you will simply need to rewrite the whole system
21:36<Fennec>oh, that's all? :)
21:36<Lakie>It'd have to be very optimised to show say a busy town....
21:36<@Belugas>the two are too intertwined to be easily separated
21:36<Tekky>is the graphics really so tightly interwoven with the game engine that a complete rewrite is necessary?
21:37<Tekky>hmmmm.....
21:37<@Belugas>why do you thiunk i've saoid that? becasue that converstation has been gong on for ages
21:37<@Belugas>you are not the only ones who came up witht hat idea
21:38<Fuco>let us at least dream about it! :D
21:38<Lakie>Its been suggested a great many times I'm sure
21:38<Fennec>I'm sure it's technically quite difficult but is there anything fundamentally wrong with it on its own merits?
21:38<@Belugas>yes, Lakie, and the counter has just been incremented ;)
21:38<Lakie>Hehehe
21:39<@Belugas>Fennec, everything can be done, it's just that the time needd to do it and to battle the bugs that will surface are really not worth the efforts
21:39<@Belugas>plus, you need to have quite a good battle plan before even starting to code
21:40*Fennec mmmms.
21:40<@Belugas>it's nothing more than a rewrite, i'm telling you
21:40<Fuco>yea, well designed plan is first step to success
21:40<Fuco>i was once making a game
21:40<Tekky>well, starting a completely new game, such as Transport Empire, is certainly more work than seperating the game engine from the graphics rendering, I guess.....
21:40<Fuco>without any planning
21:40<Fuco>it was a mess after a week
21:40<Fuco>;D
21:40<@Belugas>so for a plan, yo have to know what yo're going to attack, so it means a very good knwoledge
21:41<@Belugas>Tekky, wrong, it's worse. a new game, you have all the freedom for you.
21:41<Tekky>Belugas: Are you saying that files such as rail_cmd.cpp would also have to be rewritten?
21:41<Fennec>Belugas: Comment, if you will, on the approximate feasibility of this simplistic. "Spawn two processes. One acts as a server and you hack out all the calls to draw things. One just connects to it as a multiplayer thingy."
21:41<Fuco>Tekky, neccessarily
21:41<Fuco>not*
21:42<Fuco>with a new poject, you can make things much easier for further developement
21:42<Fuco>while with the old code, you have to "stick with it"
21:42<@Belugas>Tekky, it's not a per file base process, it's a per concept one
21:43<@Belugas>Fennec, i do not understand your requeest
21:43<Fennec>Belugas: as a plan to decouple rendering and engine-ing.
21:43<Fennec>is it not feasible at all? remotely feasible? trivially feasible? somewhere in between? :P
21:43<Tekky>Belugas: Does OpenTTD currently draw directly to the screen, without using a back buffer?
21:44<Fuco>there should be double buffering
21:45<@Belugas>Fennec: in the case of open, hardly feasible
21:45<Fuco>what does feasible means? available?
21:45<Fuco>mean*
21:45<Fennec>able to be accomplished
21:45<Fuco>thx
21:45<Fennec>more or less
21:45<@Belugas>Tekky, i do not know the internals of the blitters
21:45<Fennec>able to be accomplished within reasonable parameters
21:46<@Belugas>but i know it does not directly to the screen
21:46<Fennec>Are there logical dependencies of the backend engine on the graphics code?
21:46<@Belugas>not that i know of
21:46<@Belugas>in the sens htat code does not address a specific card type
21:48<Fennec>I mean, could a headless server be made? one that doesn't try to open any graphics buffers or anything at all?
21:49<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14059 /trunk/src/news_type.h: -Fix(r13872): Wrong comments in enum. Dear old copy/paste...
21:49<@Belugas>like dedicated server?
21:49<Fennec>is that headless? :)
21:50<Fennec>if so just run one "server" process and one "frontend" process and turn the single-player mode into a one-player-only version multiplayer mode. Or something stands in the way? :)
21:51*Fennec shrugs. You all know muuuuuch better than I.
21:53<@Belugas>if only i could answer that in an intelligent way...
21:55<Fuco>oh crap, its 4 am.. i should go sleep :P
21:56<Fuco>at least i have a free day tomorrow(today:D)
21:56<Fuco>good night guys
21:56<Tekky>good night, Fuco
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21:57<Tekky>I've just taken a look at the code and the drawing code really is tightly interwoven with the game engine :(
21:58<Lakie>Belugas: am I the only one who gets a trunk build error on line 102 of console_gui.cpp?
21:58<Lakie>VSC++ 2008...
21:59*Belugas goes checking
21:59<@Belugas>wouild help to actually updates...
22:00<@Belugas>compliling
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22:08<@Belugas>confirmed, Lakie
22:08<@Belugas>working on it
22:08<Tekky>oh well, the drawing code does not seem that tightly interwoven, after looking at it more carefully.....
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22:09<Lakie>Well, the drawing and sprite storage would have to be split off first?
22:09<Tekky>maybe I can seperate the drawing code from the game engine, even if Belugas will kill me for it. :-)
22:10<Tekky>I think the sprite storage belongs to the drawing code, I see no reason to seperate them.....
22:11<Fennec>A number of games run single-player as an instance of dedicated multiplayer like that. FreeCiv comes to mind. Stars! is another.
22:11<Tekky>ah, you mean seperate drawing and sprite storage code from the game engine?
22:11<Fennec>I mean, they have a "dedicated server", and they have a client that connects to that dedicated server, and that's single-player mode for ya.
22:11<Lakie>Well, if you replace it with 3d models you'll have to sotre them somewhere!
22:12<@Belugas>"typeof" seems to be the problem...
22:14<Tekky>Lakie: yes, but the 3D drawing code will be very different from the 2D drawing code, too... Therefore, I see no point in seperating the drawing code from the sprite/model storage.
22:14<Lakie>I merely meant you may have to alter how its all stored
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22:17<Tekky>yes, I plan to separate the game engine from the sprite storage/drawing code. I will then leave the game engine intact and add my own 3D drawing code and 3D model storage, which can be used instead of the existing 2D drawing code/sprite storage.
22:17<Lakie>Night.
22:17<Tekky>However, I will only make colored cubes in my 3D models and leave it up to other people to make proper 3D models :)
22:17<Tekky>good night, Lakie.
22:17<Fennec>haha.
22:17<Lakie>Good luck with fixing the bug, Belugas. :)
22:17<@Belugas>thnaks
22:18<@Belugas>may be a typo
22:18<Lakie>Those are the most annoy bugs...
22:18<@Belugas>yup
22:18<@Belugas>even more when the "owner" is sleeping :)
22:19<Lakie>hehe
22:21<Tekky>oh oh, I just encountered a problem..... I wanted one CPU core to do the graphics rendering of the viewport and the other core to handle the actual game engine...... but the graphics rendering also requires access to the map array while rendering the viewport, so the other CPU core is not allowed to change the map array until graphics rendering has finished. This makes dual-core useless :-(
22:21<@Belugas>nope, not a typo
22:21<@Belugas>heheh
22:22<Tekky>Well, I guess I can just copy the map array for the region of the viewport......
22:22<@Belugas>Tekky, i'm proud of yhou, you found out quite fast :)
22:22<Tekky>the viewport area of the map is normally a lot smaller than the total map size, so it should be easy to copy that area of the map into an external memory buffer.
22:24<Tekky>so I guess I will just copy the map area of the current viewport to an external memory buffer after the game engine has completed calculations for the current tick, after that both CPU cores can do their work.
22:25<Tekky>hehe, I don't give up so fast :)
22:26<Tekky>Belugas, do you have any idea what percentage of CPU resources are taken up by graphics rendering? If it is only a few percent, maybe it is not worth making the code support dual-core CPU by splitting game engine and drawing code?
22:27<@Belugas>and make it so that the map accessors are redirected to the new copy? mmh... sonds quite a challenge. don't give up!
22:27<@Belugas>i cannot answert the question
22:28<@Belugas>but bear inmimnd it will only apply to those who have dual core.
22:28<@Belugas>not eveyone does
22:28<@Belugas>so in fact, you'll slow them down, including some devs
22:28<@Belugas>and i guess the drawing is traking quite a good percent of the cpu usage
22:29<@Belugas>altough do not take my words for it
22:29<Tekky>hehe, yes, it will be a bit of work to make a second set of map accessors :)
22:30<Tekky>oh, I just noticed that there can be more than one viewport :-( OpenTTD allows for several viewports, for example you can follow several trains at once :-(
22:31<Fennec>mmm :)
22:31<Fennec>an excellent feature.
22:31<Fennec>how big is the map? is it feasible to do a bulk copy of the whole thing? :)
22:32<Fennec>then maybe you could fake out the data pointers in one process, to point to different structures...
22:32<Tekky>well, a 4096*4096 map has 16386 tiles.
22:32<Fennec>how much a tile?
22:34<@Belugas>9 bytes, if i'mnot mistaken
22:34<Tekky>as far as I can tell, it's 7 bytes per tile....
22:35<Tekky>m1, m3, m4, m5, m6 seem to take one byte and m2 takes 2 bytes, so total is 7 bytes.
22:35<Fennec>112 megabytes, memory to memory copy? hmm.
22:36<Tekky>an, the height is stored too, so total 8 bytes per tile.
22:36<Tekky>an = ah
22:36<Fennec>144 if it's 9 bytes, 128 if 8
22:36<@Belugas> uint16 m2;
22:36<Tekky>struct Tile {
22:36<Tekky> byte type_height; ///< The type (bits 4..7) and height of the northern corner
22:36<Tekky> byte m1; ///< Primarily used for ownership information
22:36<Tekky> uint16 m2; ///< Primarily used for indices to towns, industries and stations
22:36<Tekky> byte m3; ///< General purpose
22:36<Tekky> byte m4; ///< General purpose
22:36<Tekky> byte m5; ///< General purpose
22:36<Tekky> byte m6; ///< Primarily used for bridges and rainforest/desert
22:36<Tekky>};
22:37<@Belugas>8 bytes so far
22:37<@Belugas>struct TileExtended {
22:37<@Belugas> byte m7; ///< Primarily used for newgrf support
22:37<@Belugas>};
22:37<@Belugas>and 9
22:37<Fennec>byte alignment?
22:37<@Belugas>can say that
22:38<@Belugas>more - ease of access
22:38<@Belugas>and result of countless dicussions...
22:38<Fennec>I mean, are the structures aligned on 8-bit boundaries, 16-bit, 32-bit, what?
22:38<Fennec>nm that's probably compiler-dependant
22:39<Tekky>32-bit members are normally aligned on 32-bit boundaries, I think, and 16-bit members are aligned on 16-bit boundaries. But this is the case in the above struct.
22:39<Tekky>There are no 32-bit members and the only 16-bit member is already aligned.
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22:40<Tekky>so, a 4096*4096 map takes about 150KiB.
22:41<Tekky>no, sorry, 160 MiB
22:42<Fennec>go benchmark a memcpy() on a 160 MiB data block. ;)
22:43<Tekky>and copying 160MiB every tick (which is about 60 times per second) is a bit much.....
22:44<@Belugas>but hey... how cares... it's on dual core heheh
22:44<@Belugas>how -> who
22:45<Tekky>hehe, well, the code should also run well on single core :)
22:46<Tekky>so only the map data of all viewports should be copied every tick and not the whole map.
22:47<@Belugas>and map accessors easily pointed to the appropriate map saved :)
22:47<Tekky>computers with HyperThreading will also profit from this seperation.
22:47<Fennec>so you keep a map structure with the same layout, and just let XYZ portion of it get updated, and hack out some pointers so the new code looks at the new data store?
22:50*Belugas retires to bed. enjoy the conversation
22:50<Tekky>Yes to the first two portions of your question. About the last part: I am not sure what pointers there are. I must look exactly how trains and other vehicles are linked to the map
22:50<Fennec>the disadvantage is OMG MEMORY BLOAT ;)
22:50<Tekky>good night Belugas.
22:51<Tekky>Fennec: No, the viewport area is much smaller than the total map area.
22:51<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14060 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp:
22:51<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Replace numbers with Colours enum on Gen world gui.
22:51<CIA-5>OpenTTD: Note that some WWT_TEXT widgets have received a COLOUR_x value.
22:51<CIA-5>OpenTTD: It is not a valid colour a per say. THe strings been displayed there do have their own colours encoded.
22:51<CIA-5>OpenTTD: IT is currently just for the sake of ease of writing, as TextColour and Colours are not really related.
22:51*Fennec was describing the trivial implementation case (copy the entire layout and just update the parts as necessary)
22:53<Tekky>if you copy the enitre map as is, then the coordinates of the vehicles do not have to be updated for the new map. I don't think that vehicles use pointers to reference the map, they only store coordinates of the map tile.
22:57<Frostregen>for the viewport only thing: consider zoomout
22:58<Tekky>oh.. I didn't think of that :)
23:00<Fennec>consider 3d zoomout. ;)
23:01<Fennec>zoom out at an angle when the ground is practically flat ;)
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23:04<Tekky>oh, hehe, that wouldn't be nice :)
23:05<Fennec>then benchmark your 160-meg memcpy again :P
23:06<Suisse>^^'
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23:08<Tekky>hehe, yes, that is a serious problem.....
23:09<Fennec>bulk memcpy may be faster than trying to compute exact chunks and be selective
23:12<Frostregen>maybe you could just multithread the drawing commands? main thread still calls tile->draw, but the command is just enqueued into a draw-command-queue, which will be carried out (actual blitting) by the second thread?
23:14<Tekky>yes, that would be possible...... I'm not sure what percentage of the CPU resources the blitting itself takes, though.
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23:14<Frostregen>i don't know too
23:15<Frostregen>maybe some profiling would be a good start
23:15<Frostregen>to see if the effort is worth it
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23:17<Tekky>hmmmm...., the draw-command queue you suggest will also be many megabytes big, if you zoom out very far.......
23:17<Frostregen>depends on how fast it will be emptied ;)
23:18<Frostregen>you could fix its size, and block the main thread if the queue is full
23:19<Tekky>well, one CPU core will be blitting the previously computed game state while the other CPU core is computing the game state of the next tick. So, ideally, the draw-command-queue would only be emptied once per tick...
23:19<Frostregen>but i have no idea, what info would need to be queued
23:19<Frostregen>(just x/y/sprite?)
23:20<Tekky>You also need depth information, I think....
23:20<Tekky>and a second sprite, a palette sprite.....
23:21<Tekky>therefore, I'm afraid your draw-command-queue will contain a similar amount of information as the map array itself....
23:21<Frostregen>not all sprites have depth
23:21<Tekky>that just means they have a depth value of 0 :)
23:22<Frostregen>nope, they are drawn immediately
23:22<Tekky>void AddSortableSpriteToDraw(SpriteID image, SpriteID pal, int x, int y, int w, int h, int dz, int z, bool transparent, int bb_offset_x, int bb_offset_y, int bb_offset_z, const SubSprite *sub)
23:22<Frostregen>those ^^ are drawn later
23:22<Frostregen>(iirc)
23:23<Frostregen>they are stored in some list anyway
23:23<Tekky>you currently need a SpriteID of the sprite to draw, a SpriteID of the palette, then the x and y coordinate, and then additional depth information. The rest I don't understand, but you have default values for the rest, anyway, as shown here:
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23:23<Tekky>void AddSortableSpriteToDraw(SpriteID image, SpriteID pal, int x, int y, int w, int h, int dz, int z, bool transparent = false, int bb_offset_x = 0, int bb_offset_y = 0, int bb_offset_z = 0, const SubSprite *sub = NULL);
23:24<Frostregen>i think those sprites will be added to a list, and are drawn at the end
23:24<Frostregen>this list just has to be passed to the second thread
23:24<Frostregen>(which could do the sorting too)
23:25<Tekky>hmmmm.....
23:25<Tekky>I think I need to analyze the current situation more before I decide what I want to change.....
23:26<Frostregen>;)
23:26<Tekky>if it is true that they are sorted now anyway, then this list must be about a megabyte long when you zoom out fully with the current 2D client.....
23:26<Frostregen>sure :)
23:29<Frostregen>ParentSpriteToDraw *ps = _vd.parent_sprites_to_draw.Append();
23:30<Frostregen>looks like some add to a list
23:31<Tekky>yes, I think so, too......
23:32<Tekky>this list cannot be processed before the tick's final game state is calculated, though. This is because the sprites must be sorted before they are blitted.
23:33<Frostregen>this could be ok. the second thread could be still busy blitting the immediate-draws. after that he sorts the list, and draws those
23:34<Frostregen>first the new queue for immediate draws, afterwards the old sorted-sprite list.
23:37<Tekky>yes, possible....
23:40<Tekky>I must think about this at a time when I am less tired :) It is 6 AM here in Germany :)
23:41<Frostregen>ich weiss ;)
23:42<Tekky>hehe, I'll be going to bed now, good night everyone!
23:42<Frostregen>gn
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