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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-14

---Logopened Thu Aug 14 00:00:32 2008
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00:17<doc|work>any tricks to "move" another company's roads? they're right in front of my station
00:17<doc|work>even a reroute would be good
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00:25<SquireJames>Hello all
00:27<doc|work>hey
00:31<SquireJames>I think i'm finally remembering this NFO coding business
00:33<SquireJames>I can't seem to find anything related to passenger or post carriages in UKRS so I assume Pikka just replaced the default graphics for them (and apart from livery changes left the code alone)
00:33<SquireJames>so whats the default id for passenger and mail carriages/
00:53<SquireJames>Anyone? Pleeeease
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01:15<@peter1138>There is definitely stuff in there for them.
01:26<Forked>mornin..
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03:12<SquireJames>!Seen Lakie
03:13<SquireJames>ah guess thats because hes in here
03:13*SquireJames facepalms
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04:17<planetmaker>I got an error with the makefile on one of our servers: http://paste.openttd.org/47630
04:17<planetmaker>Can anyone tell me what's going wrong? Makefiles are completely uncharted territory for me unfortunately :S
04:18<planetmaker>I'm trying to compile yesterday's nightly, but always end up with a working binary with norev000 - which obviously noone can join :(
04:18<@Rubidium>looks like awk's misbehaving
04:19<planetmaker>is there a way I can pin this more in detail?
04:19-!-Nev [bleepy@5ad51a62.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd
04:21<planetmaker>awk -W version
04:21<planetmaker>mawk 1.3.3 Nov 1996, Copyright (C) Michael D. Brennan
04:24<planetmaker>or find out which call doesn't work?
04:25<@Rubidium>http://paste.openttd.org/47636 <- does that "work"
04:25<@Rubidium>i.e. show r$(REV_MODIFIED)
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04:27<planetmaker>Rubidium: unfortunately not :(
04:27<planetmaker>awk: line 1: illegal reference to array a
04:27<planetmaker>svn: Write error: Broken pipe
04:27<@peter1138>svn info src | awk '/^URL:.*branches/ { split($2, a, "/"); print length(a)}'
04:27<@peter1138>awk: line 1: illegal reference to array a
04:27<@peter1138>Must be an awk bug.
04:28<@Rubidium>what if you capitalize the a?
04:28<@peter1138>As there is no match, the rest shouldn't be called :o
04:29<planetmaker>capitalized A gives me
04:29<planetmaker>r$(REV_MODIFIED)
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04:29<planetmaker>definitely a progress :)
04:29<@peter1138>Not really.
04:29<ShiverMeSideway>hello here also
04:29<planetmaker>no error...
04:30<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it could be the awk compiler that barfs on it, not that it's actually called
04:30<planetmaker>hm...
04:31<@Rubidium>s/planetmaker/peter1138/ ;)
04:31<@peter1138>"The length() function calculates the length of a string."
04:32<@peter1138>Rather than an array.
04:32<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/mawk_split.diff <- that solves the issue, right?
04:32<@peter1138>No
04:34<planetmaker>unfortunately no
04:34<@peter1138>Not an awk bug at all, it's a script error.
04:36<@Rubidium>ah lovely... all internet examples assume gawk and in gawk length of an array is correct
04:36<@peter1138>length(array) seems to be a gawk extension, so it's not in mawk.
04:36<@peter1138>for (i in a) n++
04:36<@peter1138>:o
04:38<@Rubidium>peter1138: can you then fix it as I can't test it for mawk?
04:38-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-86-27-108-163.brnt.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
04:38<planetmaker>peter1138: I'd be glad for a diff and try that immediately :)
04:40-!-bleepy [bleepy@5ad51a58.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd
04:44<@peter1138>http://svn.bucks.net/~petern/mawk.diff
04:45<@peter1138>Well
04:45<@peter1138>That's wrong too :D
04:45<@peter1138>I need a branch checkout to test :p
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04:46<@Rubidium>one with and one without svn+ssh
04:50-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host129-15-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
04:50<Wolf01>hello
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04:54<@peter1138>I can't see that mattering.
05:00<@Rubidium>well, it was changed because it gave the wrong result on svn+ssh
05:00<planetmaker>peter1138: with the patch you posted it worked...
05:02<planetmaker>we now have again a server with a proper revision :)
05:05<@peter1138>Bah, of course the patch doesn't apply because the branches weren't synced yet... heh...
05:07<@peter1138>Hahha, my old custom bridge heads patch... all 14KB of it :o
05:08<planetmaker>:D
05:09<Ammler>oh :-) comeback?
05:09<@peter1138>No.
05:09<@peter1138>The last version of it was r3812.
05:09<@peter1138>Lots of direct map access everywhere...
05:12<planetmaker>:)
05:12<planetmaker>that's a real old-timer patch then :)
05:17<Ammler>the eyecandy specially for cityroads was nice
05:18<Ammler>(your branch only supported rail bridges, iirc)
05:19<@peter1138>Not my branch.
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05:44<prakti>Prof_Frink: I do not need to point at an x-term: I have a tiling window-manager which I can control by keyboard.
05:45<prakti>Prof_Frink: http://www.suckless.org/wmii/
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06:24<planetmaker>Celestar: any progress on CargeDest?
06:24<planetmaker>-e +o
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06:27<@Rubidium>planotmakor: Colostar: any progross on CargoDost? (sounds quite Crabtree-ish)
06:28<@peter1138>:o
06:28<@peter1138>:e
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06:31<planetmaker>whoot?
06:31<fjb>Hello
06:32<@peter1138>SketchUp is really quite easy to use.
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06:40<Roujin>@logs
06:40<Roujin>!logs
06:40<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
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06:41<Tekky>Hi everyone. I have just changed the YAPP wiki article significantly. I have moved all advanced track layouts to a new article, in order not to confuse newbies. Here are the links to the two wiki articles:
06:41<Tekky>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Yet_Another_PBS_Patch
06:41<Tekky>http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/YAPP_track_layouts_(advanced)
06:41<Tekky>I think the old article was confusing for newbies, as it contained several controversial track layouts.
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06:43<fjb>Looks good.
06:44<Tekky>Thanks, but I was not the one who wrote most of the article. I just split it up into two articles.
06:44<@peter1138>The single signal images with captions look a bit odd.
06:44<Tekky>I guess now that YAPP is in trunk, it should be linked better with the official documentation.
06:44<@peter1138>The caption does not fit at all.
06:44<planetmaker>I wouldn't call it "patch options" but rather "settings". Because that's what it is :)
06:45<SquireJames>those are some pretty complex layouts, I usually just work ad hoc, making something that looks right and then tweaking it if I get jams
06:45<planetmaker>same with advanced patch options vs. advanced settings
06:46<@peter1138>That high capacity RoRo is ugly :)
06:47<Tekky>yes, I don't like the additional signals placed on every tile.
06:47<@Rubidium>planetmaker: yes, the gui needs to be renamed, but also reworked to be more flexible
06:48<planetmaker>Rubidium: well, yes. But variables already have the correct name. I was mostly referring to the wiki page quoted by Tekky
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06:51*SquireJames dislikes RoRos anyway
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06:51<SquireJames>Real stations are Termini or Through, not RoRo
06:51<Tekky>I thought "RoRo" was just a different term for "pass-through"?
06:52<SquireJames>Well, RoRos that loop round then
06:52<SquireJames>the ones where trains leave, turn 180 degrees on loop lines and return in the direction they came
06:52<Tekky>you mean one-directional pass through in contrast to bi-directional pass through?
06:52<SquireJames>such stations in real life are plain old Termini
06:53<Tekky>ah yes, the bi-directional stations in YAPP can act both as terminus stations and pass-through stations.
06:53<Ailure>http://ailure.kafuka.org/Pinningbury%20Transport,%205th%20Jul%201703.png
06:54<Ailure>I love it how despite the vehicle have diffrent sound and logic than other road vehicles
06:54<Ailure>they still act the same when they break down
06:54<Ailure>I should probably forget about playing a game starting at year 1700
06:54<Ailure>it's boring
06:54<planetmaker>Ailure: you should use the NA road set - dirt roads look better with horse carriages :)
06:55<Ailure>Duh
06:55<Ailure>Yeah, those roads looks way too modern .
06:55<Ailure>:)
06:55<Ailure>I was only playing around with egrvts, so I didn't have much else loaded
06:55<planetmaker>ah, right :)
06:56<Roujin>well you can't expect a grf to change too much of the game's mechanics
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06:56<Roujin>just disable breakdowns ;)
06:57<Brianetta>You need different bus stopgraphics, too
06:57<Brianetta>They're too modern looking even for 1940
06:57<@peter1138>SquireJames, well, RoRo does exist for some bulk freight stations.
06:58<Ailure>[12:56] <Roujin> well you can't expect a grf to change too much of the game's mechanics
06:58<Ailure>Of course
06:58<SquireJames>Ailure, if your using horse carriages in a British Setting
06:58<Ailure>It's like how Zeppelins make a helicopter noise when they ladn/take off
06:58<SquireJames>TTRS has lovely industrial era roads and stops
06:59<Ailure>Again this wasn't a serious game :)
06:59<SquireJames>cobbles and such, marvellous :)
06:59<Ailure>I check that out though
06:59<Ailure>or wait
06:59<Ailure>I think I have used TTRS
06:59<planetmaker>for this we now have grf presets. If we have a nice working combination - save it :)
06:59<Ailure>IT's good
07:00<planetmaker>I love that. Now I would like to be able to load several grf presets at once :)
07:00<Ailure>The only thing I didn't like with TTRS is the slight graphical clash with PBI
07:01<Ailure>but that's kinda unavoidable I guess
07:01<SquireJames>its very minor though
07:01<@peter1138>If TTRS clashes with PBI, then TTRS clashes with everything.
07:01<@peter1138>(Oh, it does :))
07:02<planetmaker>:P
07:02<SquireJames>and you can actually turn off the road graphics IIRC
07:02<Ailure>The clash were never big enough
07:02<SquireJames>but, I like the roads
07:02<Ailure>to really make me bother to turn off the road graphics
07:02<Ailure>heh
07:02<SquireJames>exactly :)
07:03<SquireJames>and with LNER Expresses roaring through, TTRS just looks the part (although I miss my beloved LMS, no company colour makes her look good!)
07:03<Ailure>Feels like I kinda lagged behind in keeping track of what GRF's are hot and not
07:04<SquireJames>well, as good as other sets may or may not be
07:04<SquireJames>I can't bring myself to seperate from my British roots and play another set or climate
07:04<Ailure>I find myself playing with the UKRS train set and the aircraft set by the same author
07:05<Ailure>but only becuse they feel balanced for gameplay and keeps the game intresting for the future
07:05<Ailure>many other sets seems to refuse creating fictional trains for their sets
07:05<Ailure>Making a game rather dull after 2010 or so
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07:10<Tekky>I really think we must find a different name for YAPP "advanced signals", now that YAPP is in trunk. I have created a new forum thread on this topic here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=38981
07:11<Ailure>lol
07:11<Yorick>"Path Based Signals"
07:11<Ailure>I was laughing at the configuration options when I saw PBS signls were called advanced
07:12<Ailure>becuse I referred pre-signals as the more advanced kind of signals, since they need some learning before they are used
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07:12<thingwath>"The signals" ;)
07:12<Yorick>"realistic signals"
07:12<Ammler>hmm, zutty is wrong, you can combine the signals quite well.
07:13<Tekky>I think plain "PBS" signals would be best.....
07:13<Ammler>specially joiners to ML with PBS and "old" Presignals rocks.
07:14<Tekky>I mean calling YAPP signals simply "PBS" signals, as that is the term used most, anyway. I don't like the term "advanced" signals as it does not specify in what way they are advanced.
07:15<Ammler>Tekky: indeed, don't think you can introduce another name for it...
07:15<Ammler>does someone call them "YAPP-Signals"?
07:16<Ammler>ah, they aren't called PBS now :-)
07:17<Ammler>(didn't notice that)
07:17<Ailure>lol
07:17<Yorick>how about YAPP exit-signals, that work with normal presignals
07:17<Yorick>but they'd always turn red :)
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07:18<Tekky>Ammler: yes, I do call them YAPP signals, because when YAPP first was released by michi_cc, it was important to distinguish them from PBS signals in miniIN, which used the old PBS system of OpenTTD. However, now that YAPP is in trunk, I don't think that term is appropriate anymore.
07:19<Tekky>Therefore, I am in favor of officially renaming them to "PBS signals".
07:19-!-Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:19<Yorick>"realistic signals"
07:19<Tekky>It was said that OpenTTD's YAPP signals were different to TTDPatch's PBS signals. I disagree with this. They are nearly the same, especially since the introduction of TTDPatch "through signals". http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ThroughSignals:Alpha
07:20<Tekky>Therefore, I see no reason to give these signals a different name than in TTDPatch.
07:20<@peter1138>You said that before :p
07:20<Yorick>we need that graphics for our standard advanced signals and call it a through-signal
07:20<Tekky>peter1138: yes, I said that in the forum. I thought I would also post it in the chat for those people who are too lazy to read the forum. :-)
07:20<Ammler>maybe BPBS?
07:21<Ammler>B(etter)PBS
07:21<Ailure>PFS
07:22<Tekky>Yorick: Yes, I also like the TTDPatch graphics of the through signals. It may be a good idea to use the same graphics in OpenTTD. I proposed this several months ago to michi_cc, but he rejected my idea, saying that the graphics could be changed by NewGRFs anyway.
07:23<Yorick>Tekky: newgrfs don't set standards
07:23<@peter1138>I dislike them.
07:23<Yorick>and the current graphics for through signals are even more unclear
07:23<@peter1138>They just add more clutter.
07:23<@peter1138>They're only necessary because they're not through-signals by default.
07:23<Tekky>What TTDPatch calls a "through signal" is currently called a "two-way PBS signal" in YAPP.
07:24<Tekky>sorry, I of course mean a "two-way advanced signal". :-)
07:25<@peter1138>Besides, NewGRF newsignals is a horribly written feature that has some strict limitations.
07:25*peter1138 is considering adding signal graphic support to his Rail Type specification.
07:30<Tekky>yes, OpenTTD must make a NewNewGRF specifiation :-)
07:30<Tekky>specifiaton = specification
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07:32<Yorick>Tekky: NoGRF :)
07:33<Ailure>I always thought the way newGRF's worked was weird
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07:41<Brianetta>I want to see a two-way waiting signal
07:42<Brianetta>Last night I actually placed two advanced signals back to back
07:42<Brianetta>Not that I'd press for it, since I can always put two advanced signals back to back...
07:44<Brianetta>In case you're scratching your heads, it was at one end of a two-direction single-platform station, served by trains from each end that always turned around and went back
07:44<Tekky>Brianetta: YAPP currently only supports signals in safe waiting locations. Since it is never safe to wait on both sides of a signal, such double signals don't exist, at least until "weak reservations" are implemented which also support unsafe waiting locations.
07:44<Brianetta>Tekky: It *is* sometimes safe to wait on either side
07:44<Brianetta>when one side of the signal is a station platform, and a train will turn around
07:45<Tekky>Brianetta: Yes, but in order to deterine whether it is safe, "weak" reservations are required.
07:45<Brianetta>no; always safe
07:45<Brianetta>I can send you the save (:
07:45<@peter1138>Or a screenshot?
07:45<Brianetta>peter1138: That would involve installing OpenTTD at work...
07:45<Brianetta>but I could send it later
07:46<@peter1138>I think adding two-way signals would just confuse the people who try to place them like normal.
07:46<Brianetta>wait, I'll sketch it (:
07:46*Brianetta opens some paint proggy or other
07:46<Brianetta>Hmm, I only have the Gimp
07:46<Tekky>Brianetta: It is not safe. If another train tries to enter a platform and the platform is already occupied by a train, then the train attempting to enter the platform will be blocking the train attempting to leave the platform. This is a deadlock.
07:47<Brianetta>Tekky: Nope.
07:47<Tekky>Ok, I'm awaiting your sketch :)
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07:47<Brianetta>Hang on, mice aren't fun to draw with
07:47<Tekky>get a touchscreen :)
07:48<Tekky>then you can draw with your finger :)
07:48<Brianetta>yeah yeah
07:48<Brianetta>let me just put a requisition form in to be turned down
07:49<Tekky>for those of you who don't know what a "weak" reservation is, here is a link to my wiki article: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Realistic_Path_Based_Signalling
07:52<Brianetta>Tekky: Resolving (strengthening) a reservation won't be easy
07:53<Brianetta>You'll need so much extra metadata to make a decision as to which train "deserves" it
07:55<Tekky>Brianetta: you mean determining which train should be given right of way when a reservation conflict is detected?
07:55<Brianetta>yes
07:55<Brianetta>I'd say "first come, first served"
07:55<Brianetta>but you might as well not have them then
07:56<Tekky>well, simply resoving these conflicts by looking at a train's priority would already be good enough for a start....
07:56<Brianetta>A train's priority can more easily be granted by allowing it longer reservations
07:57<Brianetta>ppcis.org/dodgy_sketch.jpg
07:57<Brianetta>Three train system
07:57<Brianetta>Four staions
07:57<Brianetta>One per Raw Mat station
07:57<Brianetta>Yellow spots are designated waiting spots
07:57<Tekky>yes... well, I believe that all trains should have a certain lookahead. The lookahead of high-priority trains should just have a higher priority :-)
07:57<Brianetta>They're on the left
07:58-!-dlunch [~dlunch@61.108.29.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:58<Brianetta>high-priority *orders*
07:58<Brianetta>Trains aren't inherently important
07:58<Tekky>with "high-priority train" I mean "a train with a high-priority order".
07:58<Brianetta>A low priority train doesn't even need to make any weak reservations
07:59<Brianetta>It can make strong ones, one at a time, like present
07:59<Brianetta>So, you see my sketch?
07:59<Brianetta>All three trains serve "Drop"
07:59<Brianetta>and all of them will turn around and leave the way they came
07:59<Tekky>giving low-priority trains a lookahead does little harm, if the priority of this lookahead is so low that they will never be given right of way if they conflict with another train.
08:00<Brianetta>Damnit, the signal to the left of drop is on the wrong side
08:00<Brianetta>Tekky: With lots of low priority trains (probably at least half of the orders of freight trains) it's more work
08:01<Brianetta>anyway
08:01<Brianetta>on my sketch, you'll note that the right side entrance to "Drop" has a signal showing a safe waiting area each side
08:01<Brianetta>In my game, I put two signals back to back
08:02<Brianetta>In the game itself, the three raw materials stations were actually allot further away
08:02<Brianetta>a lot
08:02<Brianetta>so the trains would converge here, and all would wait to get onto the single platform
08:03<Brianetta>From the left, in front of the junction
08:03<Brianetta>From the right, in front of the platform itself
08:03<Brianetta>No trains ever unreasonably blocked any other train
08:04<Tekky>By the way, a lookahead is not a "weak" reservation. I plan to make 3 types of reservations: strong (as currently in YAPP), weak and lookahead. A weak reservation is a reservation that tells other trains: "You may use this reserved track, as long as you make sure you don't get stuck here, because I need this track as a safe waiting locations, otherwise I risk getting stuck myself." In...
08:04<Tekky>...contrast, a lookahead is no real "reservation", it just tells other trains: "I will be needing this track soon, so if you want it, you must first negotiate with me." In other words, a lookahead is only necessary for detecting train conflicts in advance, so they can also be resolved in advance.
08:04<Brianetta>I've corrected the wrong signal
08:05<Brianetta>http://ppcis.org/dodgy_sketch.jpg
08:05<Brianetta>again
08:05<Brianetta>Again, signals are on the driver's *left*
08:06<Tekky>ok, I'm studying your sketch.
08:06-!-Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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08:07<Tekky>Brianetta: ah, every Raw Mat station only has one train serving it?
08:07<Brianetta>Yes.
08:08<blathijs>Tekky: That three level reservation thing sounds sane
08:08-!-Brainstorm [~Brainstor@82-171-5-111.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
08:09<Kloopy>I played lots of people at OpenTTD this weekend at a big LAN event... I was surprised how many people don't understand signaling.
08:09<blathijs>Tekky: What does YAPP currently do? Only strong reservations? Does it use explicit exit signals, or only a single signal type as you propose for strong reservations?
08:09<Kloopy>Most of them use 1 track and 1 platform for each train.
08:09-!-Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@ndb.demon.nl] has joined #openttd
08:10<Tekky>blathijs: yes, YAPP currently only supports what I would call a "strong" reservation and it exclusively uses the single signal type that I proposed for strong reservations.
08:11<blathijs>Brianetta: If you don't allow low prio trains to make weak reservations, that means that they will never be able to use the secondary track, right? Ie, go past non-safe waiting locations? Or can they still make a very long strong reservation?
08:11-!-Sacro_ [Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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08:13<Brianetta>blathijs: They'd act exactly as they do in the game now.
08:13<Tekky>Brianetta: I will test your layout in YAPP, just a moment....
08:14<blathijs>Brianetta: That's a bit weird to reason, if you would add those unsafe waiting signals for secondary track
08:18<Brianetta>blathijs: I didn't understand that at all
08:19-!-KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-179-170.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
08:19-!-Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:19<blathijs>Brianetta: :-)
08:19-!-SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:19<blathijs>Brianetta: I meant that saying, they'd do the same as now does not make sense, since you cannot create secondary track right now
08:20<blathijs>You can only create two primary tracks, which will result in deadlocks
08:20<Brianetta>What's secondary track?
08:20<blathijs>Did you read the wiki article Tekky just posted?
08:20<Brianetta>Yes.
08:20<Brianetta>I read it a couple of days ago.
08:21<Kloopy>about through signals?
08:21<blathijs>Brianetta: By secondary track I mean opposite track
08:21<blathijs>Misquoted the article
08:21*blathijs is off for lunch, bbl
08:22<Tekky>Brianetta: The original version of YAPP did not require that additional signal. One signal was enough, it was not necessary to have two signals back to back. Later, however, michi_cc decided that it would be better to make trains entering a station platform also reserve a route outside the station again, I assume in order to prevent the train getting stuck i the station platform. This is...
08:22<Tekky>...what makes that additional signal necessary in your track layout.
08:22<Tekky>Brianetta: I think it would be best for michi_cc to revert back to the original behavior of YAPP 1.0, to make this additional signal unnecessary.
08:23-!-divo [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
08:23<Brianetta>No
08:23<Brianetta>No no no
08:23<Yorick>Tekky: I don't like any reservation/waiting behavior from yapp that does not come from an advanced signal...
08:23<Brianetta>Current behaviour is better
08:24<Brianetta>Either an additonal two-headed signal, or no additional signal
08:24<Brianetta>Don't revert default behaviour to suit this one-off case
08:24<Yorick>for example it waits and reserves a path with a normal signal if it ends up to a pbs block
08:24-!-LilDood [~IceChat7@cpc2-bolt5-0-0-cust370.manc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: kwit]
08:25<Brianetta>Yorick: Paths are only reserved from advanced signals.
08:25<Yorick>are they?
08:25<Tekky>Well, the basic question then is, should trains wait in station platforms for a PBS path even if the station platform does not have a signal?
08:25<Brianetta>If you have a regular signal at an entrance to a block with PBS signals, your train could cross reservations
08:26<Kloopy>Tekky, it should not... if you want it to, you should place a signal just outside the station.
08:26<Brianetta>Tekky: It's certainly save space (:
08:26<Kloopy>That way it's down to the players choice.
08:26<Tekky>Current behavior of YAPP is that a train will not leave a station platform if it can't reserve a path, so it acts as if there were a signal at both ends of a station platform, even if there isn't one.
08:26<Brianetta>Is it?
08:26<Tekky>yes
08:26<Brianetta>Wow
08:27<Yorick>@openttd commit 13963
08:27<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Commit by rubidium :: r13963 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2008-08-02 22:56:35 UTC)
08:27<@DorpsGek>Yorick: -Codechange [YAPP]: Reserve a track when entering a PBS block through a conventional signal. (michi_cc)
08:27<Brianetta>I can delete half my signals
08:27<Kloopy>Actually, it has to do that, doesn't it? If a train reverses at a station, it can't have previously reserved track back out the way it came into the station.
08:27<Brianetta>In fact, for some routes, I can delete them all
08:27<Brianetta>Kloopy: Not having a reservation doesn't mean your train won't roll forwards
08:28*Yorick remembers parkshuttle accident
08:28<Brianetta>Trains don't need reservations to move; they just need a path
08:29<Brianetta>That's why regular signals can make a train cross a reservation
08:29<Tekky>However, I think it may be a good idea to change YAPP so that trains drive off from a station platforms automatically and, if there is no signal protecting the platform, the trains risk crashing then.....
08:29<Yorick>Brianetta: regular signals ending up to a pbs block do reserve track
08:29<Brianetta>Tekky: I always made that assumption. In any case, real platforms have signals at the end, except on some small halts
08:30<Brianetta>Yorick: That'll be a safety feature, then, although I missed that whilst playing with it last night
08:30<Yorick>@openttd commit 13963
08:30<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Commit by rubidium :: r13963 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2008-08-02 22:56:35 UTC)
08:30<@DorpsGek>Yorick: -Codechange [YAPP]: Reserve a track when entering a PBS block through a conventional signal. (michi_cc)
08:30<Yorick>it is there
08:31<Yorick>but should openttd really correct players's stupidity?
08:31<SpComb^>compensate
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08:33<@peter1138>It is a good idea, in my opinion. It still behaves like a normal signal otherwise.
08:35<Yorick>still I would like to see other trains crashing into it
08:36-!-Forked [~kjetil@savner.vdsl2.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:36<Brianetta>It means that your trains, travelling along what are supposed to be clear reservations, can slam into the side of a train that entered through a different kind of signal in that small interval between the reservation being reserved and the reserving train crossing its signal.
08:37<Yorick>yes, that is the user error
08:37<Yorick>faulty signalling
08:38<Brianetta>I think the devs are of the opinion that no signalling should lead to faults unless the user makes changes or deliberately puts two trains into a block without any protection.
08:38<Brianetta>Every signal fails safe.
08:39<Brianetta>If we ever get shared infrastructure, we'll be very glad of this.
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08:40<Brianetta>Signal blocks could conceivably cross ownership boundaries.
08:48-!-a1270 [~Cheese@24-117-51-112.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: a1270]
08:58<Kloopy>0.7.0 could be AWESOME. Just YAPP, cargodests and shared infrastructure would be enough.
08:59<Progman>"just"
08:59<Kloopy>What I'd like to see if a pledge system... if the devs like certain ideas, you can pledge a donation if the feature makes it into the game.
08:59<Kloopy>"just" as in if none of their other awesome work made it in, those three major features would be incredible to have.
08:59<Wolf01>daylength!
08:59<Kloopy>Daylength is one I'm not too fussed about tbh. But sure! :)
09:00<Kloopy>A 0.7.0 like the above is something I'd certainly pay for.
09:00<Yorick>Kloopy: so they would not get paid for fixing bugs
09:00<Kloopy>Tbh though, if they're anything like me (in the developer sense) I'd rather be taken out for a few beers than have someone randomly pledge donations. :P
09:00<Yorick>some dont like beer
09:01<Kloopy>Yorick: I don't mean that at all, I'm just excited about the great features that're being added at the moment.
09:01<Kloopy>The devs should all feel bloody proud. :)
09:01<Yorick>but it would happen
09:01<Kloopy>Yeah, I see your point.
09:01<Yorick>if you only "pay" them for new features, and not for bugfixes...
09:02<Brianetta>Yorick: THey could hold us to ransom for bugfixes (:
09:02<Kloopy>lol
09:02<@peter1138>We do not do it for money...
09:02<Brianetta>"Your trams are stuck? See our 'fix the trams' fundraiser!"
09:03<@peter1138>You can send me a beer though.
09:03*Yorick gives peter1138 a cookie
09:03<Kloopy>I know you don't... I've done a lot of volunteer coding before and I realise why you do it. But donating money is a nice and easy way for us to show our appreciation.
09:03<Kloopy>:)
09:03<Brianetta>http://www.sendafriendabeer.com/
09:04<Brianetta>http://www.buymeabeer.com/ <-- works in the UK
09:05<Brianetta>although it's only valid in some London bars
09:05<Kloopy>Do the devs ever get together in one city? That way all the fans of your work can all get together and give you a great night out!
09:06<Yorick>Kloopy: better question is if the devs ever get together in one country
09:06<Kloopy>That's what I mean :)
09:07<@Belugas>hello
09:08<Brianetta>https://secure.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/vouchers/
09:08<Brianetta>Now there's a useful one
09:08<Brianetta>J D Wetherspoon gift vouchers
09:08<Kloopy>Awesome!
09:09<Brianetta>"Vouchers are not transferable or negotiable and cannot be exchanged for cash."
09:09<Brianetta>How do you buy gifts if they're not transferable?
09:09<Kloopy>hehe
09:11-!-PierreW [~pierrew@p579F6C9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
09:13<Yorick>I think you can buy them for someone else
09:13<Brianetta>I'd hope so.
09:14<Brianetta>We need to find a Dutch equivalent, too
09:14<Brianetta>Many devs are there
09:14<Yorick>Brianetta: many = 1>
09:14<Yorick>?
09:15<@Belugas>Kloopy, it wold be very hard for us to meet, since we're spread in 2 continents or 6 countries (maybe more)
09:15<Yorick>Brianetta: could you name 2?
09:15<@Belugas>altough some did get together once or twice
09:16<Kloopy>You should start a donation fund for plane tickets! :)
09:16-!-Doorslammer [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-229-189.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #openttd
09:27<@peter1138>Yeah, one-way. It would save money in the long run ;)
09:29<Yorick>Belugas: what's the second continent?
09:29<Gekz>A fundraiser?
09:29<Gekz>But i cant afford my webhosting
09:29<Gekz>:/
09:29<@Belugas>Yorick : american continent
09:30<@Belugas>peter1138, sorry, but i would pay the retunr home tivket myself then ;)
09:32<@peter1138>Did I mean you? ;)
09:32<@Belugas>hooo... welcome HERE!!!!
09:33<blathijs>Yorick: Me and Rubidium are Dutch at least. TrueBrain as well, though he is no longer active OpenTDD dev (still noai, though)
09:33-!-Bork [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-115-130.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #openttd
09:33<blathijs>Yorick: Darkvater is dutch, but has retired
09:33<Yorick>oh sorry, blathijs, I forgot you :)
09:33*Yorick gives blathijs a cookie
09:34<@Belugas>and TrueBrain is dutch too, altough his status is a bit ambivalent
09:34<@peter1138>Darkvater is not dutch ;)
09:34<Yorick>is TrueBrain dutch twice?
09:34<blathijs>peter1138: Darkvater lives in Holland, at least. Isn't he Dutch?
09:34<@peter1138>TrueBrain counts more due to the number of times he's retired.
09:34<@Belugas>he was bron in hungary
09:35<Gekz>Oh nice, the fundraiser is complete.
09:35<Gekz>lol
09:35<blathijs>Belugas: Hmm, didn't know that. Though his name did kindof give it away :-)
09:35<Gekz>Current amount: £494.30 / £486.00
09:35<Yorick>@seen Darkvater
09:35<@DorpsGek>Yorick: I have not seen Darkvater.
09:35<@Belugas>true, blathijs :)
09:36<@Belugas>could be italian, just by his last name :)
09:36<ln>i remember Darkvater and MiHaMiX even communicating in hungarian on this channel.
09:36<blathijs>Belugas: Yeah, but at least not Dutch :-)
09:36<dih>@seen "my glasses"
09:36<@DorpsGek>dih: Error: 'my glasses' is not a valid nick.
09:36<dih>shoot
09:36<Yorick>dih: do you even have those?
09:36<dih>no i dont
09:37<dih>but DorpsGek might
09:37<Yorick>no wonder he couldn't find your glasses
09:37-!-Doorslammer [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-229-189.prem.tmns.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:38<Kloopy>Is there a keyboard shortcut for the landscape levelling tool?
09:38<Yorick>e
09:38<Yorick>"Tron, status: active"
09:39<Brianetta>@seen boobies
09:39<@DorpsGek>Brianetta: I have not seen boobies.
09:39<Brianetta>(-:
09:39<Kloopy>Thank you, Yorick... awesome. :D
09:40-!-Bork is now known as Doorslammer
09:40<blathijs>Yorick: Where did you paste that from?
09:40<Yorick>blathijs: wiki.openttd.org
09:40-!-divo [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:41-!-divo [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
09:41<blathijs>Hmm, that list is quite out of date...
09:42<blathijs>And keeping a list of contributors with patch counts on the wiki is really never gonna work..
09:42<dih>@seen jesus
09:42<@DorpsGek>dih: I have not seen jesus.
09:42<dih>shame
09:43<Gekz>@seen dih
09:43<@DorpsGek>Gekz: dih was last seen in #openttd 27 seconds ago: <dih> shame
09:43-!-glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd
09:43-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
09:43<Brianetta>@seen Brainstorm
09:43<@DorpsGek>Brianetta: I have not seen Brainstorm.
09:43<Yorick>@seen "The Light"
09:43<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Error: 'The Light' is not a valid nick.
09:43<Brianetta>@seen Brianetta
09:43<@DorpsGek>Brianetta: Brianetta was last seen in #openttd 10 seconds ago: <Brianetta> @seen Brainstorm
09:43<Yorick>:(
09:43<Brianetta>@seen Brianetta
09:43<@DorpsGek>Brianetta: Brianetta was last seen in #openttd 5 seconds ago: <Brianetta> @seen Brianetta
09:43<Yorick>@seen "The_Light"
09:43<@DorpsGek>Yorick: I have not seen The_Light.
09:44<@peter1138>Tron didn't retire.
09:44<Brianetta>So, DorpsGek can't actually see people unless they say something.
09:44<Yorick>Brianetta: nope
09:44<Yorick>@seen Tron
09:44<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Tron was last seen in #openttd 26 weeks, 4 days, 0 hours, 21 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <Tron> gcc 2.95 is plain obsolete (even has several bugs in its C++ part). further at the very least the justifications given are extremely oversimplified.
09:44<Brianetta>@seen eQualizer
09:44<@DorpsGek>Brianetta: eQualizer was last seen in #openttd 10 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 6 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <eQualizer> Eddi|zuHause3: Thanks, resetengines did help.
09:44<Yorick>Brianetta: try @seen *
09:44<Gekz>Yorick: I hope you get banned by peter1138
09:44<Brianetta>Yorick: No (:
09:44<@Belugas>Brianetta. please...
09:44<dih>@seen with_my_eyes
09:44<@DorpsGek>dih: I have not seen with_my_eyes.
09:44<Gekz>lol.
09:45<Gekz>dih: with my own eyes
09:45<Gekz>!
09:45<Yorick>Gekz: why?
09:45<dih>:-P
09:45<eQualizer>?
09:45<Gekz>Yorick: inciting flatulence
09:45<dih>hihi
09:45<@Belugas>or everyone playing -toying with the bot, in fact...
09:45<Brianetta>eQualizer: Just botting
09:45*dih hides
09:45<dih>botting - lol
09:45*Yorick hides after dih
09:45<Brianetta>You've been quiet for ten weeks, and yet you bounce in when we mention your name (:
09:46-!-mikl [~mikl@cpe.ge-0-2-0-812.0x50c774be.boanqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: mikl]
09:48<dih>Brianetta, true - perhaps that also works with some other people?
09:48-!-quadat [~18c9bbd8@sarah.ppcis.org] has joined #openttd
09:48-!-dlunch [~dlunch@61.108.29.49] has joined #openttd
09:48<@peter1138>@seen neli
09:48<@DorpsGek>peter1138: neli was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 10 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, 37 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <neli> Eddi|zuHause3: the worst one was the highspeed train against the bridge ?
09:48<dih>@seen guru3
09:48<@DorpsGek>dih: guru3 was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 18 hours, 56 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: * guru3 fades into the backgroundd of worry
09:48<Yorick>yeah
09:48<dih>oh - usually he has something with weeks there also
09:48<Gekz>@seen Edward
09:48<@DorpsGek>Gekz: I have not seen Edward.
09:48<Yorick>lets highlight people
09:48<Gekz>1
09:48<@peter1138>@seen divo
09:48<@DorpsGek>peter1138: divo was last seen in #openttd 24 weeks, 0 days, 0 hours, 10 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <divo> Wow thanks
09:48<Gekz>@seen judas
09:48<@DorpsGek>Gekz: I have not seen judas.
09:48<Gekz>O.o
09:48<Yorick>@seen Gonozal_VIII
09:48<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Gonozal_VIII was last seen in #openttd 20 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 40 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Gonozal_VIII> still nobody here
09:48<dih>@seen Draakon
09:48<@peter1138>@seen jni
09:48<@DorpsGek>dih: Draakon was last seen in #openttd 10 weeks, 6 days, 19 hours, 8 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Draakon> *runs*
09:49<@DorpsGek>peter1138: I have not seen jni.
09:49<dih>hehe
09:49<@peter1138>@seen pierrew
09:49<@DorpsGek>peter1138: I have not seen pierrew.
09:49<Gekz>peter1138: why not just do what Yorick said, with the glob
09:49<PierreW>liar
09:49<dih>lol
09:49<dih>you must have been quite for a long time if the bot does not know you :-D
09:49<guru3>dih: ...
09:50<guru3>i'm honered to be known for being not known
09:50<guru3>(the irony there is killer)
09:50<Gekz>honoured*
09:50<Gekz>quiet*
09:50<guru3>excuse my laggy ssh
09:50<guru3>i explained that the last time ><
09:50<dih>yeah - that is the reason for typos
09:51<guru3>it's not that i can't spell
09:51<guru3>really
09:51<PierreW>explanation: "liar" was the first, i ever wrote in that channel, due to me being new here :)
09:51<guru3>i just can't see what i'm typing
09:51<Gekz>lol.
09:51<guru3>and shorterm memory is only 7+-2 items
09:51<Gekz>PierreW: haha hacks.
09:51<guru3>so to keep every letter of a 60 character line in my head to correct for typos would be imposible
09:51<Gekz>guru3: not for me
09:52<guru3>you are amazing then
09:52<Gekz>I am
09:52<guru3>i'm normal
09:52<Gekz>haha
09:52*Gekz is a wannabe linguist
09:52<guru3>i'm just an engineer
09:53<guru3>we're supposed to be gramatically challanged
09:53<guru3>comes from not being able to read our own handwriting
09:53<Gekz>lol.
09:53<Gekz>challenged*
09:53<guru3>damn right
09:54-!-CommanderZ [4e66a422@67.207.141.120] has joined #openttd
09:56-!-CommanderZ [4e66a422@67.207.141.120] has quit []
09:59<dih>short stay
09:59<Gekz>lol.
09:59<guru3>was trying not to attract attention to himself
09:59<Gekz>lol
09:59<guru3>obviously, that doesn't work in RIC
09:59<guru3>IRC
10:00*guru3 mutters about typing too fast
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10:01<Gekz>lol
10:02<ln>Gekz: shut up
10:03<Gekz>no.
10:06<@Belugas>[09:51] <PierreW> explanation: "liar" was the first, i ever wrote in that channel, due to me being new here :) <-- so welcome here then :)
10:06<PierreW>thanks :)
10:06<Yorick>welcome
10:07<PierreW>going after work to try out openttd, damn i'm looking forward to explore that stuff as an old ttdlx-player :)
10:07<Gekz>lies
10:07<planetmaker>explore the possibilities :)
10:07<@Belugas>i'm sure you'll find it has been enhanced a bit
10:08<Gekz>Bonne nuit monsieurs
10:08<PierreW>yeah, i've read... thats really sick what wishes are coming true i had those times
10:08<+glx>Gekz: last word is not french
10:08<Gekz>I knoW.
10:08<Gekz>lol.
10:08<+glx>it's monsieur or messieurs
10:08<Brianetta>PierreW: It's hornbytastic
10:08<+glx>but not a mix of both
10:08<Gekz>I was seeing who would point it out
10:08<PierreW>Brianetta: i believe:)))
10:08<Gekz>:/
10:09<@Belugas>heheh
10:09<@Belugas>nice try
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10:10<Gekz>I'm serious >_>
10:10<Gekz>I was just reading over it for my test tomorrow
10:10<Gekz>lol
10:10-!-quadat [~18c9bbd8@sarah.ppcis.org] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)]
10:10<+glx>btw good night Gekz
10:10<Gekz>byes
10:15<Kloopy>Can the YAPP "show reserved track" be improved for maglev? It's only just visible.
10:18<@Belugas>mmh
10:18<@Belugas>dunno
10:19<@Belugas>maybe
10:19<+glx>maybe use a grf to change maglev tracks
10:19<Kloopy>It's great on diesel/electric track, of course.
10:19<+glx>YAPP uses the crashed palette
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10:19<Kloopy>glx, if YAPP was a patch, then yes... but as it's part of trunk I'd suggest it should be good by default.
10:20<Brianetta>http://ttd.jaspervries.nl/wiki/index.php?title=TransRapid_Track_Set
10:20<+glx>it uses what it can, and crashed maglev tracks look a lot like normal maglev tracks
10:20<Brianetta>I don't show reservations whilst playing, unless I am trying something radical
10:21<Brianetta>I can nearly always predict which paths will be reserved, and after observing a new block for a while I can *always* predict it.
10:22<hylje>Kloopy: the problem with maglev is that maglev track is mostly underlay with the little black things perpendicular to it the actual track
10:22<Kloopy>Yeah, that's what it looks like.
10:23<Kloopy>But we can use overlays these days, can't we?
10:23<+glx>and that's not YAPP's fault
10:24<Kloopy>The reason I ask is I have a 10 platform dropoff and want to check how efficient the trains coming in and out are... it's hard to predict or see what's happening without decent overlays/crashed track showing.
10:27<planetmaker>it's most efficient to not crash trains ;)
10:30-!-Celestar_ [~Jadzia_Da@pD9E4F1D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:30<Celestar_>morning
10:31-!-Celestar_ is now known as CelestarT42p
10:31<planetmaker>lol. Moin Celestar
10:32<Wolf01>hello Celestar
10:38<FauxFaux>Gah, someone's anihilated the entire chatmsg code, I had patches against that, dammit. >.<
10:41-!-heldey [~david@modemcable058.232-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
10:41<CelestarT42p>peter1138: any news? (=
10:44<planetmaker>FauxFaux: and the changes are GOOD!
10:44<FauxFaux>The better be. :P
10:44<FauxFaux>*They
10:44<planetmaker>(no too short chat messages anymore)
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10:50<eQualizer>Has anyone proposed unload/load only stations?
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10:51<PierreW>oh damn a dream has come true, an active ttd-community :D
10:51<Brianetta>PierreW: Where have you been?
10:51<planetmaker>:)
10:52<planetmaker>eQualizer: no.
10:52<PierreW>errm, not here.
10:52<planetmaker>there's no need for that.
10:52<PierreW>epic fail
10:52<planetmaker>Because it's implemented in train orders
10:52-!-[com]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has joined #openttd
10:53<@Belugas>mmh... remembering vehicle window's attributes would be silly if it's not related to the vehicle itself, and not in general
10:53<@Belugas>which means storing (eventually) the pos and size in the vehicle data itself
10:54<@Belugas>and that seems to be silly too, i think
10:54<eQualizer>planetmaker: I was thinking more like situation with trucks, where there's two or three stations in one spot, and some of the trucks are waiting for loading, and some are waiting to unload, and trucks with full load on their orders doesn't leave until their full. So trucks which come to unload, can't unload.
10:54<+glx>eQualizer: use different stations
10:54<planetmaker>eQualizer: ^^
10:55*planetmaker always uses seperate stations for pickup and drop.
10:55<planetmaker>well... except for trains - there are other means to avoid jamming :)
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11:12<Brianetta>Or, use the same station, but with totally separate roads
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11:18<planetmaker>peter1138: you might actually want to commit your changes to the makefile wrt mawk... :) or are they not up to your standards? :)
11:19<+glx>what's wrong in the makefile?
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11:28<planetmaker>oh, sorry.
11:28<planetmaker>glx: it fails to make with mawk.
11:28<+glx>in rev detection?
11:29<planetmaker>http://svn.bucks.net/~petern/mawk.diff <--- and that fixes it for us :)
11:29<planetmaker>yes.
11:29*glx tries the diff
11:30<planetmaker>argue with peter about it :P
11:31<+glx>if it works for me (gawk) then I guess ot's ok :)
11:32<planetmaker>:)
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11:32-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
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11:38<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14072 /trunk/ (Makefile.in Makefile.src.in): -Fix (r14053): branch detection failed with mawk (peter1138)
11:43<planetmaker>:)
11:45-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has joined #openttd
11:45<CelestarT42p>back
11:49<CelestarT42p>er peter1138 I'm timing out on your hg server :P
11:50<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14073 /branches/noai/ (93 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14024:14072
11:52<@peter1138>It's not up
11:53<+glx>Celestar: your hg server doesn't reply either ;)
11:53<CelestarT42p>glx: galadriel has apparently died.
11:53-!-Roujin [~Roujin@p54971958.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:53<CelestarT42p>glx: arwen.fvfischer.de is up at port 8000 however
11:54<CelestarT42p>peter1138: interesting, because I don't get a connection refused :P
11:55-!-fonso [~fonso@brln-d9bac610.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
11:56<@peter1138>The machine isn't up...
12:00<CelestarT42p>I believe you :P
12:03-!-Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
12:04<CelestarT42p>glx: any luck with http://arwen.fvfischer.de:8000?
12:04-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@78-21-228-27.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
12:04<+glx>yes it worked :)
12:04<+glx>compiled without warnings
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12:05<CelestarT42p>glx: awesome
12:11<CelestarT42p>glx: can you pull again and see if the no-warnings situation persists?
12:12<+glx>no changes :)
12:13<CelestarT42p>you mean no changesin the warning situation or no changesets to the source?
12:13<+glx>no changes wrt warnings :)
12:15<CelestarT42p>ah :D
12:15<CelestarT42p>ok next thing is to remove the two functions in routing.cpp that don't belong there
12:16<Eddi|zuHause><eQualizer> planetmaker: I was thinking more like situation with trucks, where there's two or three stations in one spot, and some of the trucks are waiting for loading, and some are waiting to unload, and trucks with full load on their orders doesn't leave until their full. So trucks which come to unload, can't unload. <- use waypoints: http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%2012.%20Dez%201938.png
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>(only possible in trunk, not 0.6)
12:16<planetmaker>:) what do I care about stable releases ;)
12:18<CelestarT42p>@openttd bugs
12:18<@DorpsGek>CelestarT42p: Temporary Offline
12:18<CelestarT42p>all bugs are offline \o/
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>there are no bugs ;)
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>they make holidays on mallorca ;)
12:20<+glx>Celestar: MSVC fails to compile (due to a trunk bug not synced yet)
12:21<+glx>@openttd commit 14068
12:21<@DorpsGek>glx: Commit by rubidium :: r14068 trunk/src/console_gui.cpp (2008-08-13 14:26:20 UTC)
12:21<@DorpsGek>glx: -Fix (r14056): MSVC doesn't support typeof.
12:21<+glx>this one
12:21<CelestarT42p>checking
12:22<CelestarT42p>bah
12:22<CelestarT42p>full reconfig :S
12:22<+glx>14072 ;)
12:23<CelestarT42p>glx: changes pushed
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>hg view misses a "refresh" button...
12:26<@peter1138>Yup
12:27<+glx>good, windows users are now able to compile cargodest with any compiler
12:27<hylje>damn
12:27<@peter1138>D:
12:27<@peter1138>er
12:27<@peter1138>:D
12:27<CelestarT42p>glx: so MSVC doesn't throw warnings?
12:28<+glx>no warnings indeed
12:28<CelestarT42p>peter1138: we're good :D
12:30*peter1138 > home
12:31<CelestarT42p>cool
12:32<CelestarT42p>Rubidium: btw: if cargodest still desyncs because of different arrangement of the elements in the containers, we could run a stable_sort over them. I'm just wondering whether I should do it now or wait for a desync test and do it later if need be
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12:46<CelestarT42p>hey Roujin :D
12:46<CelestarT42p>peter1138: heh. You know what function withing the whole routing system takes most CPU cycles?
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13:20<CelestarT42p>peter1138 has a long trip home
13:20<Brianetta>Something's wrong with my server
13:24<planetmaker>got svn?
13:24<Brianetta>yes
13:24<planetmaker>sorry, wrong channel :P
13:24<Brianetta>d-:
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13:28<@peter1138>No, I don't know.
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13:28<CelestarT42p>peter1138: GetStationName :P
13:29<@peter1138>That doesn't surprise me. We don't need it.
13:29<CelestarT42p>I wonder whether I could put that into Debug() so that it's not called when the debug string is not printed
13:30<@peter1138>Just print out station index.
13:30<CelestarT42p>I'll leave some #define in so that we can quickly get the names back if need be, k?
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13:39<@peter1138>Well
13:39<@peter1138>Our debug routines should be defines too...
13:39<@peter1138>At the moment it's doing a lot more work than we want.
13:39*peter1138 pulls
13:40<CelestarT42p>peter1138: wait a few minutes before a pull (=
13:40<CelestarT42p>I'm just cleaning something up
13:40<@peter1138>Already did it
13:41<@peter1138>Currently all the parameters are evaluated first, and then nothing is printed...
13:42<Prof_Frink>prakti: Good answer :)
13:42<CelestarT42p>exactly
13:42<CelestarT42p>working on that peter1138
13:42<CelestarT42p>(and moving things into class where they belong)
13:47<CelestarT42p>peter1138: easiest thing would be to make GetStationName return a const char* to the buffer and call GetStationName from Debug() right away
13:48<@peter1138>I say remove it, it is unnecessary.
13:48<CelestarT42p>completely or leave it toggleable with a #define?
13:49<CelestarT42p>peter1138: your home comp still down?
13:51<@peter1138>Nope
13:53-!-Farden [~jk3farden@lns-bzn-48f-81-56-247-196.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #openttd
13:55<CelestarT42p>ah I see
13:55<CelestarT42p>had your work URL :P
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13:59<CelestarT42p>so who else did some cargodest testing? (=
13:59<@Bjarni>anybody here who knows Korean?
13:59<@Bjarni>CelestarT42p: I did a bit but uncovered nothing worth mentioning
14:00<@Bjarni>that struck train issue never happened again
14:00<CelestarT42p>stuck train?
14:00<@Bjarni>yeah
14:00<CelestarT42p>oh that ... been fixed long ago (=
14:00<@Bjarni>that might explain it :)
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14:03<@Belugas>did not tested it, sadly
14:04<CelestarT42p>pity
14:06<@Belugas>grante
14:06<@Belugas>d
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14:09<CelestarT42p>peter1138: I'm off now till tomorrow night
14:09<@peter1138>Grrring at railtypes :o
14:09<@peter1138>Okay
14:09<CelestarT42p>got a world-ranking-tournament tomorrow morning
14:09<@peter1138>nini :)
14:09<@peter1138>(image = rti->base_sprites.ground, (track & TRACK_BIT_3WAY_NE) == 0) || (image++, (track & TRACK_BIT_3WAY_SW) == 0) || (image++, (track & TRACK_BIT_3WAY_NW) == 0) || (image++, (track & TRACK_BIT_3WAY_SE) == 0) ||
14:09<@peter1138>I hate that style of code. It does my head in!
14:09<CelestarT42p>welcome to the club
14:10<CelestarT42p>feel free to do to GetStationName whatever you want. I've so far removed all the time-critical stuff anyway
14:10<@Belugas>good luck Celestar :)
14:10<CelestarT42p>Belugas: thanks, we really need it :P
14:10<@Belugas>all my bets are on you ;)
14:10<@Belugas>don't fail me!
14:10<@Belugas>but.. more than anythng else... ENJOY!
14:11<CelestarT42p>that we do
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14:21<@peter1138>Gruargh
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14:24<@peter1138>Some sprites are drawn in the wrong place :(
14:25<@peter1138>When there is no foundation, and it's along the top of a diagonal slope...
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14:25<@peter1138>Hmm, even when there's a foundation sometimes :/
14:26<frosch123>peter1138: tracks on top of halftile foundations need the y offset of three-corners-raised slopes
14:26<@peter1138>It's not a halftile.
14:26-!-Farden [~jk3farden@lns-bzn-48f-81-56-247-196.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:26<@peter1138>And I was hoping to avoid use of AddSortableSpriteToDraw()
14:28<frosch123>err, you shoudn't use addsortablespritetodraw for tracks
14:28<@peter1138>Exactly.
14:28<frosch123>I guess I did not understand the initial problem :s
14:28-!-Farden123 is now known as Farden
14:28<@peter1138>Let me make a screenshot :)
14:30-!-[com]buster is now known as [gone]buster
14:30<@peter1138>http://svn.bucks.net/~petern/zwrong.png
14:31<hylje>hm?
14:31<@peter1138>Because I'm using overlays, there is no special graphic for slopes.
14:32<@peter1138>It's using the same sprite as for flat land. I just need to raise it a bit.
14:32<frosch123>I guess you have to include a call to GetSlopeZInCorner() somewhere
14:33<frosch123>though I wonder why the functions is not inline in slope_func.h
14:34<@peter1138>I don't actually know how to adjust the position either, as DrawGroundSprite does not take those arguments...
14:34<frosch123>then add them :p
14:34<@peter1138>Uh... no? :p
14:35<@peter1138>Drawing foundations manages to make it work, so I must be able to too :)
14:36<frosch123>There is already that functionality in DrawGroundSprite as it is used for the tile highlights
14:36<frosch123>just that it is not wired to the outside
14:36<frosch123>i.e. the last two params of AddChildSpriteToFoundation
14:37-!-CelestarT42p [~Jadzia_Da@pD9E4F1D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:38<@peter1138>Bah, maybe I could just do it like normal...
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14:49<rortom>wow, £494.30 / £486.00 that was fast :)
14:50<Yorick>previous fundraiser was also fast :)
14:50<rortom>nice :)
14:52<Yorick>how much is the chance that duplicate md5sums ever occur with grfs?
14:52<@Rubidium>1 in 2^(bits in md5)
14:53<Ammler>(32byte)
14:53<frosch123>actually it is a lot more likely
14:54<Yorick>something with the birthday paradox
14:55<@peter1138>16 bytes.
14:56<@peter1138>Rare but possible.
14:56<Yorick>duplicate grfid is more likely?
14:56<@peter1138>Much.
14:56<@Rubidium>yes
14:56<frosch123>like 100% ?
14:56-!-Tekky_ [~chatzilla@p5493F1D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
14:57<Yorick>or not, because those are chosen?
14:57<frosch123>hardly any grf changes grfid when a new version is released
14:57-!-SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd
14:58<frosch123>i.e. every time ottd says 'compatible grf' loaded
14:58<@peter1138>Argh, too many windows open :o
14:58<Yorick>ok, I'll reference by md5sum then :)
14:58<frosch123>whatever 'compatible' means
14:58<Yorick>peter1138: on lindows?
14:58<@Rubidium>reference by grfid+md5
14:59<@peter1138>Ah, gui sprites now working :D
14:59<@peter1138>Silly 2cc coder, put the gui sprites in with the trains, and the track sprites as a separate GRF...
15:00*peter1138 hides from the coder...
15:00<Ammler>hehe, length is 32, sorry about...
15:01<Yorick>Ammler: is it?
15:01*fonso impersonates DJNekkid and drags peter1138 out for punishment
15:02<Ammler>Yorick: yep, I took it wrong 16byte=32 chars
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15:02<Yorick>if I encode it as bin, I'm quite sure it is not 32 chars anymore
15:04<frosch123>encode it as xml: <md5><bit><index>0</index><value>1</value>....
15:05-!-david [~david@c-24-62-103-46.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
15:05-!-jessica_br [~gmagno@bl10-160-153.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
15:05<Yorick>frosch123: ^^
15:05-!-david is now known as Guest1710
15:06<@peter1138>Cool. It works.
15:06<jessica_br>hello, how do you guys make vehicles auto replacement to work in openttd?
15:07<frosch123>open the vehicle list -> "manage list" -> "autoreplace"
15:07<Ammler>Yorick: just to explain, why I had 32 in mind :P
15:07<frosch123>or similiar
15:07<jessica_br>you mean, in the hangar?
15:07<frosch123>no in the menu bar
15:07<jessica_br>uh
15:07<jessica_br>let me check
15:07<frosch123>the vehicle icons that open a list of all your vehicles of a specific type
15:08<jessica_br>ah i see
15:09<jessica_br>but tell me, when i click autoreplace, do my vehicles start autoreplacing when get old?
15:10<frosch123>no, that would be autorenew
15:10<jessica_br>ahh
15:10<jessica_br>im sorry then, i made my question wrongly
15:10<frosch123>that is in the 'patch settings' dialog
15:10<jessica_br>let me check
15:11<Ammler>peter1138: quoted you about the 2cc coder, his answer was, that he didn't code the metro, just added those GUI sprites.
15:11<Ammler>we are currently playing that set
15:11<@peter1138>Haha
15:12<Ammler>the final metro.grf will be from foobar, btw.
15:12<frosch123>err, he added gui sprites to an existing grf?
15:12<Ammler>to his set
15:12<Ammler>which isn't released as final yet
15:13<@peter1138>frosch123, the odd bit is, there are two GRFs. One contains trains, and one contains the track sprites.
15:13<@peter1138>The GUI parts for the new track type, however, are in with the trains ;)
15:13*peter1138 has moved them with his working copy.
15:15<Ammler>peter1138: there are no final grfs of both grfs yet...
15:15<jessica_br>frosch123, i already have old vehicles. If i set autorenew will my old vehicles start to be replaced?
15:16<frosch123>if they visit a depot and you have enough money, then yes
15:16<jessica_br>ah, nice
15:16<@peter1138>Ammler, I know. I'm using it as my sample for rail type support.
15:18<Ammler>is it possible to disable train renaming?
15:19<frosch123>place a 'return CMD_ERROR' in the server side command function
15:19<Ammler>since when is that in trunk?
15:19<+glx>frosch123: good for desyncs
15:19<Ammler>maybe I just didn't realize that :-)
15:20<frosch123>well, I took the more didactical approach :p
15:21<+glx>at least only the client desyncs
15:21<Ammler>the one, which tries to rename or others too?
15:21<frosch123>the one that is trying to rename
15:22<frosch123>if you use such a patch for a half year, noone will ever try again to rename a vehicle
15:22<Ammler>I renamed a train, but can't revert it :-)
15:22<Ammler>because I can enter less chars, then it was before...
15:22<@Bjarni>http://devs.openttd.org/~bjarni/korean.png <-- do you think those Korean chars look correctly?
15:23<@Bjarni>or are you as good a judge as me in this matter?
15:23<+glx>looks korean enough for me
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15:23<Yorick>frosch123: try it with DEF_RECIEVE_PACKET(PACKET_CLIENT_COMMAND)
15:24<Ammler>might be too late for them, now :-)
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15:24<Ammler>frosch123: we won't use patches on our public server :-)
15:25-!-daspork [~daspork@24-158-111-118.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has joined #openttd
15:26<@peter1138>Pom te pom
15:26<@Bjarni>looks like people think it's good enough.... which is good enough for me :)
15:27<@Rubidium>Bjarni: doesn't look very korean to me; lots of the chars look chinese/japanese instead of korean
15:28<@Bjarni>are you sure?
15:29<@Bjarni>because this is UTF-8
15:29<@Bjarni>I was thinking if I picked the right font, not the right chars
15:30<Yorick>Bjarni: as far as I can read, it's chinese
15:30<@Bjarni>heh
15:30<@Bjarni>it's clearly not Chinese
15:30<+glx>too many rounds to be chinese
15:30<@Bjarni>I don't know a single char in that screenshot (apart from the latin chars)
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15:31<Yorick>glx: where are the rounds?
15:31<+glx>circles ...
15:31<Yorick>chinese has circles
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15:33<@Belugas>and 5 which are right now famous... you know, the ones that look like handcuffs?
15:33<@Rubidium>Bjarni: as far as I remember Korean consists of only rounds and straight lines
15:33-!-Roujin [~Roujin@p54971958.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
15:33<@Bjarni>http://devs.openttd.org/~bjarni/chinese.png <-- THIS is Chinese
15:34<Yorick>no, that's Korean
15:34<ln>no, it's Danish
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15:34<@Bjarni>*isgh*
15:34<@Bjarni>*sigh
15:34<Yorick>too many rounds to be chinese
15:37<@Bjarni>http://devs.openttd.org/~bjarni/danish.png <-- This is what Danish looks like
15:38<@Bjarni>http://devs.openttd.org/~bjarni/russian.png <-- and if you didn't know, this is Russian
15:38<ln>you just copied chinese.png to danish.png
15:39<ln>Bjarni: btw, how did you make that danish look so bad? negative spacing and so on
15:39<Roujin>the danish are weird people.. they have awefully narrow characters :P
15:39<@Bjarni>looks like my patch isn't quite finished yet
15:39<ln>what is it about?
15:39<@Bjarni>the Danish screenshot is using the wrong font :s
15:39<Yorick>Bjarni: no, it is norwegian
15:40<Roujin>show me some japanese :D
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15:40<ln>Roujin: that's a dangerous thing to say
15:40<@Bjarni><ln> what is it about? <-- if no font is specified and a language can't be fully displayed, the game will select a suitable font on it's own (mac only)
15:40<Roujin>mac only? racism! :P
15:41<@Bjarni>actually not
15:41<Yorick>Bjarniism!
15:41<Roujin>wasn't the "double size" feature removed because it was windows only?
15:41<ln>Bjarni: does that mean that e.g. cyrillic would work without installing separate fonts or grfs for ottd?
15:41<Yorick>ln: it already does
15:42<Yorick>you just need to specify the font
15:42<Roujin>stating something along the lines of "this is a multiplatform application, so we won't have a feature that's only available on a specific platform"?
15:42<Yorick>and compile with freetype
15:42<@Bjarni>I coded it as OS independant as I could but I don't know how to select fonts on non-OSX systems
15:42<ln>Yorick: which is silly. why would i need to specify a font.
15:42<Yorick>Roujin: they don't include xchat support either, because it's windows only
15:42<ln>Yorick: i never needed to specify a font for e.g. Firefox, and it's showing cyrillic fine.
15:42-!-gregor_ [~gregor@xdsl-84-44-176-241.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd
15:42<@Bjarni>Roujin: http://devs.openttd.org/~bjarni/japanese.png <-- 日本語
15:43<Yorick>ln: firefox is using a font by default
15:43<Yorick>openttd is using the standard sprite font
15:43<ln>yes, so?
15:43<Yorick>Bjarni: that's japanese :)
15:43<gregor_>while joining the coop server, ottd crashs and give the error message:
15:43<TinoDidriksen>Sites specify a codepage which Firefox can use to query the OS for a font capable of that codepage.
15:43<gregor_>openttd: /home/gregor/openttd/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp:227: void NetworkDrawChatMessage(): Assertion `blitter->BufferSize(width, height) < (int)(_chatmsg_box.width * _chatmsg_box.height * sizeof(uint32))' failed.
15:43<@Bjarni>Yorick: that's what I said
15:43<@Bjarni>日本語
15:44<Roujin>ugh, the font's very fudgy
15:44<ln>the earring bug is still not fixed.
15:44<+glx>Yorickのばか
15:44<Yorick>gregor: >bugs.openttd.org
15:44<@Belugas>who said it was a bug?
15:44-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1F1F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
15:45<ln>Belugas: it's on fs.
15:45<Yorick>Belugas: I know assertions are a feature
15:45<@Bjarni>glx: you can say that again
15:45<Yorick>...and the console is a gui
15:45<Roujin>can hardly read any of the kanji :)
15:45<+glx>Bjarni: what?
15:45<@Bjarni>that's because it's hiragana
15:46<Yorick>glxのばか
15:46<@Belugas>ln, does not mean it's a valid bug. Yorick: WHAT???
15:46<@Bjarni>or maybe you mean 日本語
15:46<+glx>Yorick: do you know what it means?
15:46<Yorick>glx: should I?
15:46<@Bjarni>no
15:46<@Bjarni>:P
15:46<Roujin>the hiragana and katakana are readable, but the more complicated kanji are too fudgy to read :P
15:46<@Bjarni>hehe
15:47<Roujin>damnit I can't read what you're typing because it won't display in my program :P
15:47<Roujin>only garbage
15:47<Yorick>Roujin: get an unicode client
15:47<@Bjarni>it's nice of you to request a language your computer can't handle :P
15:47<Roujin>well I _can_ view the screenshot :P
15:48<@peter1138>Ammler, as you're in the know, are there any tunnel and depot icons and cursors? heh
15:48<@Bjarni>notice "Train 1" in Chinese and Japanese and compare it
15:48<Yorick>Bjarni: you mean Japanese and Korean
15:49<Roujin>Yorick stfu :P
15:49<ln>Belugas: the bug was never claimed to be invalid.
15:49<@Belugas>was it ever claimed to be valid?
15:49<+glx>Bjarni: nice catch ;)
15:49<ln>of course.
15:49<@Bjarni>Yorickのばか
15:50<@Belugas>ln: which number?
15:50<ln>Belugas: 69
15:50<Yorick>Bjarni: what's that supposed to mean?
15:50<@Bjarni>it's supposed to mean what it says
15:50-!-Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@user-5440e40a.wfd80a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:50<Yorick>Bjarni: in what language?
15:50<@Bjarni>but if you have to start by figuring out which language it is then you are fucked
15:51<TinoDidriksen>Luckily Unicode codepoints tell you which language it is.
15:51-!-[gone]buster is now known as [com]buster
15:51<Roujin>hmm weird, i thought train in japanese was densha
15:51<ln>well, let's have a link, too: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/69
15:51-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F564C8.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
15:52<@Belugas>it's been closed as won't implement
15:52<ln>i know.
15:52<@Belugas>i see no reason to re-open it
15:52<Roujin>the second kanji is sha alright, but the first one, despite being fudgy, is clearly not "den" (electricity)
15:52<Yorick>ln: request re-open
15:52<@Belugas>and no patch to support the request??
15:52<ln>Belugas: but it doesn't say it won't be implemented because the bug as such is invalid.
15:53-!-Fennec [~ff@76.14.63.133] has joined #openttd
15:53<@Belugas>no, it says nothing more than "won't implement"
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15:53<ln>if someone had entered an invalid bug in the FS, i bet he would have felt the power of the force by Darkvater.
15:55<@Bjarni><Roujin> hmm weird, i thought train in japanese was densha <-- well.... try to look it up
15:55<@Bjarni>列車【れっしゃ】
15:55<@Bjarni> (n) train (ordinary); (P)
15:55<ln>Belugas: btw, here's my old patch for it: http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/ottd/two-earrings.diff (looks a little bad because it doesn't mirror the sprite)
15:56<Yorick>he doesn't have unicode
15:56<Yorick>and it's chinese
15:56<@Bjarni>電車【でんしゃ】
15:56<@Bjarni> (n) (electric) train; (P)
15:56<@Bjarni>so the OTTD translator used the word for train where you thought of the word for electric train
15:57-!-Yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [there's no need to argue anymore]
15:57-!-Yorick [~Yorick@82-171-205-190.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
15:57*Bjarni slaps Yorick
15:57<Roujin>true.. since it can also be steam and diesel trains...
15:57<@Bjarni>now let that be a lesson to you
15:57<@Bjarni>Yorickのばか
15:57<+glx>now find the reference in the kick message
15:58<Yorick>could you tell me what that means in english?
15:58<TinoDidriksen>のばか is Hiragana Letters No, Ba, and Ka.
15:58<@Bjarni>I knew that
15:58<TinoDidriksen>Should know what it means from that...
15:58<+glx>TinoDidriksen: don't tell more :)
15:58<TinoDidriksen>Oh, I won't.
15:59-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7FCEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
15:59<@Bjarni>I would have to know because the only copy paste I did in this channel tonight were the dictionary stuff and the links
15:59<@Bjarni>(yes, I'm writing Asian chars on my latin keyboard)
16:00<+glx>me too
16:00<Yorick>oh
16:00*Yorick slaps glx
16:00*Rubidium rather uses Romaji
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16:02<@Belugas>ln, that is a good start.
16:03<@Belugas>do you think you can mirror the said sprite?
16:04<@peter1138>Solution: NOT a bug.
16:04<ln>Belugas: i'm not sure if the sprite handling code supports mirroring at all.
16:04<@Rubidium>mirroring == wrong lighting
16:05<ln>one earring == bisexuals
16:05-!-bowman^2 is now known as bowman
16:05<ln>which one is better?
16:05<Brianetta>Initial city size multiplier. How does it change after being "initial"?
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16:07<@Belugas>[16:05] <ln> one earring == bisexuals <-- this is fucking interpretation based on social references!
16:07<@Belugas>BULLOCKS!
16:08<Brianetta>Belugas: Interesting patch idea: Flip the whole game graphics in X, except signs and station names.
16:08<Roujin><ln> which one is better? <--- clearly, bisexuals ^_^
16:08<Fennec>Brianetta: haha
16:08<Roujin>they have double the fun, you know :P
16:09<ln>m'kay...
16:09<Brianetta>Actually, once settled into a monogamous, closed relationship, they have the same amount of fun as anybody else in such a relationship.
16:09<ln>but let's drop the subject before mr. B notices it.
16:10<Brianetta>Advantage of being bi is that more peoples' bums are worth looking at.
16:12<@Belugas>the subject does not matter to me, i had my share of fun, thank you. But i suspect you would like the "bug" be fixed becasue of the social reference it has. Which is why I'm not in favor of fixing, since for me, there is nothing to fix
16:12<Eddi|zuHause> <Roujin> wasn't the "double size" feature removed because it was windows only? <- no, it was removed because it could not be ported to the new blitter system
16:14<@Belugas>damned.. i hate doing translations for work...
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16:15<Roujin>okay, I have now joined with another client. It looks like sh**, but it's supposed to understand unicode...
16:16<TinoDidriksen>Copy/paste 列車【れっしゃ】æøå
16:16<TinoDidriksen>Looks ok?
16:16<Roujin>nope. grrr
16:17<TinoDidriksen>Even mIRC can do Unicode...
16:21<TinoDidriksen>If nothing else, Pidgin can log on to IRC.
16:22<Roujin>I'll be back.
16:22<Roujin>Hopefully with the ability to read unicode :S
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16:27<Brianetta>Why can't I build humongous long suspension bridges in the scenario editor?
16:27<@Rubidium>max 100 tiles?
16:27<Brianetta>Nowhere near *that* humongous
16:27<Brianetta>32 tiles
16:27<@Rubidium>longbridges disabled?
16:27<Brianetta>enabled for sure
16:28<Brianetta>ah
16:28<Brianetta>Pikka's GRF disables them
16:29<Brianetta>disable, add, re-enable
16:29<Brianetta>"Expensive, slow and short bridges"
16:29<Brianetta>I'd prefer expensive and slow
16:31<Brianetta>Disable, set clock forward, build, disable, rewind clock
16:31<Brianetta>*That's* how to make a long suspension bridge (:
16:31<Brianetta>enable, even
16:34<Brianetta>If you terraform an above-snowline town to below snowline, will it start to grow without food?
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>never tried that ;)
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'd assume that it checks the town center road tile for snow/desert
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>but i'd have to look it up
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16:38<TinoDidriksen>:: 列車【れっしゃ】æøå изделий
16:39<Roujin>some question marks, an ae, a o with a line through it, an a with a circle above and some russian stuff
16:40<TinoDidriksen>You don't have asian fonts?
16:40<TinoDidriksen>http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ajp - Japanese.
16:40<Roujin>maybe i have to set another font
16:41<TinoDidriksen>Firefox should do it for you.
16:41<TinoDidriksen>Asian fonts are not installed by default, though.
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17:16<TinoDidriksen>:: 列車【れっしゃ】æøå изделий
17:18<Kloopy>irssi + putty! :D
17:18<Kloopy>Unicode heaven.
17:19<TinoDidriksen>Do those show fine for you, btw?
17:19<Zuu>Nope, or well some of them.
17:19<bowman>hehe
17:19<Zuu>The later part, but I'm on Windows + XChat.
17:19<bowman>all the irssi users fail to configure either their terminal or irssi itself though :P
17:20<TinoDidriksen>Trying to debug Roujin's Unicode deficiency.
17:20<Zuu>And putty default to non-utf8 while my debian systems run utf8 :)
17:20<bowman>introducing ncurses and terminal emulation as extra failure points probably wont help him :)
17:20<Roujin>ha, i can read them!
17:20<Roujin>woot!
17:20<bowman>complex issue
17:21<Roujin>thanks a bunch for your time Tino :)
17:21<Roujin>ressha - Train :)
17:21<bowman>all irc clients should have one default legacy codepage as fallback, and detect/decode any utf8 sequences on top of that :) (for incoming), then a separate setting per context regarding how to actually send
17:22<bowman>kinda like mirc hehe
17:22<TinoDidriksen>Or, everything should just be UTF-8. Much easier.
17:23<Zuu>I just checked and I have UTF-8 for irc.oftc.net, and still I only see the later half of your message.
17:23<TinoDidriksen>You don't have asian fonts then, probably...
17:23<@Rubidium>then your font sucks
17:23<TinoDidriksen>Same problem Roujin had.
17:23<bowman>font linking is also a required client feature :)
17:24<TinoDidriksen>Or, your font is not set to a unicode capable one.
17:24<Zuu>And even on a local channel there is problem of users of the same country not using the same encoding of the local characters... :)
17:25<Suisse>Year: -21 the big bang is coming :D
17:25<Suisse>!password
17:25-!-Suisse was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
17:25-!-Suisse [Suisse@bas15-montrealak-1177943779.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd
17:25<Suisse>damn T.T
17:25<bowman>only way its gonna change is if all popular clients suddenly change their default encoding for sending to utf8 hehe
17:25-!-Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:26<TinoDidriksen>Well, this is CJK (列車) followed by Hiragana (れっしゃ) followed by Danish (æøå) followed by Russian (изделий) in UTF-8.
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17:28<vargadanis>hi folks...
17:29<vargadanis>it might be only me but I think I have found a bug
17:29<vargadanis>that might have already been fixed
17:29<vargadanis>let me know if so
17:29<vargadanis>ahmm so here it is
17:29-!-fonso [~fonso@brln-d9bac610.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.7 : http://kopete.kde.org]
17:29<vargadanis>the incomes of the aircrafts dont show up anywhere
17:30<frosch123>can dorpsgek already answer the question?
17:30<@Rubidium>sounds you're messing with transfers
17:30-!-Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
17:30<@Rubidium>and you don't know how it actually works
17:31<Prof_Frink>You are meddling with forces you do not understand.
17:31<vargadanis>ahm.. what does the missing grf files mean?
17:33-!-Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-64-31.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
17:33<Roujin>you loaded a savegame/scenario where custom .grf files were added to the game, and don't have those .grf files. Search on the forums/grfcrawler/internet for the missing files.
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17:34<Roujin>for the first question, if you're using "transfer" orders, just don't use them. Use normal ones instead ("go to xy"..)
17:34<vargadanis>k
17:35<vargadanis>but..
17:36<vargadanis>why can't I use transfer?
17:36<Roujin>"transfer" orders mean "unload the cargo/passengers there, but tell them that they should wait at that station until they are picked up again (by another vehicle)" and you won't get any money from them until they are transported to their _final_ destination
17:36<+glx>you can use them if you know how to use them
17:38<Roujin>for example you can make the following:
17:38<Roujin>[coal mine] [Station]----------[Double-][-Station]-------[Station] [power plant]
17:39<vargadanis>oooo
17:39<Roujin>the double station in the middle is somewhere, in the middle of nowhere. You have one train from the coal mine to that middle station, and tell it to _transfer_ its cargo in the middle station.
17:39<vargadanis>aaaa
17:39<vargadanis>i understand now
17:39<Roujin>another train goes between the middle station, picks up the _transferred_ coal, and brings it to the power plant (this time no transfer order!). then at the end you'll recieve money for the whole trip
17:40-!-[com]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has quit [Quit: Operator, give me an exit]
17:41<Roujin>that's why you don't get any money if you're using transfer orders in "normal" situations - the cargo/passengers think they're not at their final destination yet. and you only get money when they are at their final destination
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17:44<vargadanis>i c
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17:44<vargadanis>for for a plane I need to have 4 things in my route
17:44<vargadanis>2 of each station
17:44<vargadanis>one of the full load
17:44<vargadanis>and the other is unload
17:44<Prof_Frink>No.
17:44<vargadanis>reversed... unload full load
17:45<vargadanis>then?
17:45<Prof_Frink>Just the Full Load orders
17:45<Roujin>which version of openttd are you using?
17:45<Prof_Frink>Unloading happens automagically if the cargo is accepted by the station
17:45<vargadanis>0.6.2
17:45<vargadanis>ohh
17:46<vargadanis>uload won't hurt though
17:46<vargadanis>i just modified 8 planes
17:46<Prof_Frink>Yes, it will.
17:46<vargadanis>really?
17:46<vargadanis>oh my
17:46<vargadanis>ok
17:46<vargadanis>why?
17:46<+glx>they won't load
17:47<Roujin>uhm.. it's changed with the new order window, hasn't it?
17:47<Roujin>aren't unload and load independant now?
17:47<Roujin>with one drop down you can select loading option, with another drop down unloading option for an order
17:47<Prof_Frink>I don't know. I'm still playing TTDPatch 1.7.
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>no, they aren't not.
17:48<+glx>Roujin: but it's not in 0.6.x
17:48<Roujin>oops - thought it was
17:49<Roujin>sorry
17:49<vargadanis>k
17:49<vargadanis>just modified the planes
17:49<vargadanis>they only load now
17:50<Roujin>vargadanis: are those planes flying the same route, or different ones?
17:51<vargadanis>same
17:52<Roujin>then I should tell you about shared orders.. try clicking on "go to" of one of the planes, and then (with the go to arrow) click on another of those planes, while holding CTRL. Then they will have "shared orders"
17:53<Roujin>shared orders are good if multiple vehicles are doing the same job - if you change the orders of one of them, the orders of the others will also be changed in the same way
17:55<vargadanis>i c
17:55<vargadanis>that is useful
17:55<vargadanis>tanx
17:56<Roujin>well, it would have spared you changing stuff on 8 planes if you had known that before ;)
17:56<Roujin>but now you know
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17:57<vargadanis>yup
17:58<vargadanis>can I share orders with only 2 planes?
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17:59<Roujin>no, with any number
17:59<+glx>with as much as you want
18:00<Roujin>just open the order window of another plane and click goto and (with ctrl) on one of the two planes that already share their orders
18:00<Roujin>you can also click on the planes in their viewports (little windows following their view), or their icon in a depot or such..
18:02<vargadanis>yup
18:02<vargadanis>worked great
18:02<vargadanis>now, my income looks somewhat different
18:02<vargadanis>^_^
18:03<vargadanis>what about the roads of the towns and the bus stops?
18:03<vargadanis>I cannot build bus stops in the towns cause the road belongs to the town
18:06<Roujin>check the "configure patches" window
18:07<Roujin>section "Stations"
18:07<Roujin>the option you'll want to enable is "Allow drive-through road stops on town owned roads"
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18:20<flaske>hey, any devs here tonight? I've got a couple of code related questions=)
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>"i have questions" is never a good introduction...
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>especially if you don't actually ask any questions...
18:21<flaske>heh, i guess. Got one on interger division of the OverflowSafeInt64 type
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>that's still not a question...
18:22<flaske>I'm trying to find the relation of one Money vs another Money, of course I get integer division problems. Cant cast to double or float, and that's about the range of my skills there
18:22<flaske>double progress = (currentValue / targetCompanyValue ) * 100;
18:23<Zuu>"(double) targetCompanyValue" to cast it to double.
18:23<flaske>yeah, that doesnt work
18:23<+glx>openttd will never use double (nor float)
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>use currentValue*100 / targetCompanyValue;
18:24<flaske>alright, Im just getting started on the code base, so Im not too familiar with it
18:25<flaske>wont that result in integer division aswell?
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but the result will be significantly >0 ;)
18:25<flaske>ah, yes :) thanks alot mate
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>anything that does NOT result in integer division is the wrong approach
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>it MUST be integer division, or clients will desync in multiplayer
18:26<flaske>really? interesting. so i should stay away from floating points then?
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes. very far
18:27<Zuu>Floats are not garantuied to have exactly the value you give them in the same way as ints.
18:27<Zuu>Only to a certain precision they keep their value.
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>floats may be rounded differently on different architecture
18:27<flaske>ah, well thanks for the warning. I'm gonna try to keep my code as "clean" as possible for once
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18:28<flaske>there's alot of support functions I have no clue about yet. but some of it makes life really easy, i just love the way strings are handled, that code is so smooth hehe
18:30<Zuu>Uhm, strings, you love the string engine of OpenTTD, oh guess taste differs which is a Good thing. :)
18:30<Zuu>Or you where ironic maybe?
18:31<flaske>hehe no man, i like it
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>the guy who created that was a genious ;)
18:32<flaske>was going to add some new dropdown menus. Thought it was gonna take for ever, kinda like the save load stuff im gonna do now next. but thanks to the absolutly streamlined hadling of strings I changed 3 lines, and added one to english.txt and presto :)
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>a problem is changing a string means full recompile
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18:34<flaske>yeah, but i cant complain
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18:35<Zuu>flaske: What stuff are you worknig on?
18:36<flaske>i was going to see if I could do anything interesting with scenario missions
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>make tutorials ;)
18:37<flaske>kinda along the lines of "operate 23 profitable vehciles by 1937" or "connect this and that and this town"
18:37<flaske>tutorials? how is that?
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>the use for your patch ;)
18:39<Zuu>Making scenarios of advancing challenge level?
18:40<flaske>hause: ah, no. at least that wasn't my main objective. you see, i was playing locomotion, and seeing how many flaws it has comparred to OpenTTD, I figured the only kinda fun thing about it is the fact that it's not allways openended
18:40<Zuu>Or having multiple missions in a scenario file and having only the first one shown until that one is completed and then the next one is displayed?
18:40<flaske>My idea was to edit savegames and carge them with "objectives". Like a map of holland, and an objective to transport 10,000 passengers by this and that year
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>flaske: but i mean it, interactive tutorials that explain a newbie how to place bus stops
18:41<flaske>or connect all the towns in southern norway to one rail network
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>or train station
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>and then signals
18:41<flaske>arn't those in the game?
18:41<flaske>aah, no they're not hmm
18:41<flaske>they were there in the original, i remember
18:42<Zuu>flaske: They got removed quite fast as they broke when new features was added I think.
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>TT original had short introduction "movies"
18:42<Zuu>Or it was only TT and not TTD, don't know exactly.
18:42<flaske>i think it was both. but TTD had an extra showing directional signals =)
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think TTD ever had them
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>the TT ones did not show signals either
18:43<flaske>so what do you guys think? has anyone ever gone down this path before?
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's a really interesting feature
18:44<Wolf01>'night
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18:45<flaske>yeah? Im glad to hear that
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>but it's a huge task to make it flexible enough
18:45<flaske>I know. God, I know
18:45<flaske>but I think if you start out simple...
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>and then allow users to specify scenarios without recompiling the game ;)
18:46<@Bjarni>TTD had introduction movies but they were really broken like the computer could build two stations and sometimes it failed to connect them
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18:46<flaske>ah, there we are. thanks Bjarni
18:46<flaske>I've got two kinds of objectives implemented so far. but they are hardcoded to load on all maps
18:47<flaske>like you said Eddi|zuHause, that is what needs to be in place
18:47<flaske>something in the scenario editor i suppose... it's a big todo as of now
18:53<flaske>so, some technical stuff: are we supposed to go object oriented now?
18:53<@Bjarni>only if you think that the code will benefit from it
18:54<flaske>mmm, yeah. I think so. all the objectives should have some kind of heritage maybe. like IsComplete() or GetInfoString() or something
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18:55<@Bjarni>you should make sure that the code is readable and easily understandable
18:56<flaske>I'll do my best. But I'm affraid I dont know much about all the tools, allocaters and whatnot that i _should_ use
18:56<flaske>i just use the standard C stuff for noew
18:59<@Bjarni>rule 1: the code should be clear and readable
18:59<@Bjarni>rule 2: the code shouldn't contain any bugs
19:00<@Bjarni>rule 3: the code shouldn't contain any memory leaks
19:00<@Rubidium>rule 0: the code shall obey the coding style guidelines
19:01<@Bjarni>rule 4: the code shouldn't use more CPU power than needed
19:01<flaske>I'll do my best. esp if anyone other than me might be slightly interested in this
19:01<@Bjarni>Rubidium: I was planning on saving the best for last :/
19:01<@Rubidium>rule 5: thou shalt not beg/annoy the developers every <too short timeframe> for inclusion
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>rule 5a: especially not before the feature is finished :p
19:02<flaske>into the release?
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>flaske: into trunk, mainly
19:03<flaske>haha God no, I wouln't worry, im a perfectionist and this is the kinda thing that would take a while =)
19:04<flaske>and TT has allways been an open ended game. I dont know if people would be interested in "missions"
19:04<@Bjarni>I prefer slow code writing over bloatware
19:04<flaske>tell me about it, im an embedded developer really. any byte counts
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, subsidies are some kind of mission
19:04<+glx>not like autoreplace ;)
19:05<@Bjarni>...
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19:05<Eddi|zuHause>things that give the player bonuses if he does
19:05<@Bjarni>well
19:05<@Bjarni>we all learned for that experience, specially that we would like to have this feature
19:05<flaske>Eddi|zuHause, hmm maybe. I was thinking you "win" the map. like a single player campain thing
19:05<@Bjarni>and it worked flawlessly in the 3rd attempt
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>"win" is just a special kind of bonus ;)
19:06<@Bjarni>unless people started using stupid GRF overrides >_<
19:06<flaske>hehe yeah
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>and especially for "tutorial missions", immediately ending the game for each accomplished goal is kinda counterproductive
19:07<flaske>well, one can do both i suppose. Did you ever try Locomotion?
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>also, even after "winning", they should be allowed to play on
19:07<flaske>of yes, for sure. Like in Civilization
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>no... but i have the CD here, if that counts ;)
19:08<@Bjarni>I tried the demo of Locomotion. Does that count?
19:08<flaske>it's a broken game in many ways. but it differes in one major way from TT, it's not open ended
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>my brother gave it to me... i have never used it
19:08<@Bjarni>evil brother
19:08*Sacro gives it to Bjarni
19:09<flaske>Whenever you start a game, you choose from a series of predesigned maps with an objective to complete
19:09<flaske>I love open ended games, but sometimes it's fun to try a hard mission too.
19:10<flaske>I thought it might be interesting to introduce some of that gameplay to TT.
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19:11<@Bjarni>I remember the scenarios in Railroad Tycoon II where you had to do some stuff before a certain date
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>i never really managed those...
19:11<@Bjarni>on one map you had to move X cargo from A to B (you should build the line first) and you had 15 years or so
19:12<@Bjarni>When the time ran out my train was 2 tiles away from the destination :(
19:12<flaske>exactly. I was going for some of that, only I was hoping to do it a little more interesting
19:12<flaske>and i think the power of the OpenTTD can make for some cool missions.
19:12<flaske>hehe Hope i can make it a little more fun
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>but "missions" should not only be predefined and final, random missions on random maps like an extension of subsidies might challenge much more people
19:13<@Bjarni>because it was a close call I had set the train to pull max, meaning it was driving constantly in the red area of the "load indicator"
19:13<@Bjarni>still not enough
19:13<flaske>hehe
19:14<flaske>well, how about this. a mountainous landscape, small towns spread all over. the mission is to connect them ALL to a single rail network, making a stop in each town. and making money off it
19:15<@Bjarni>making a stop in each town <-- in the same order list?
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>transport mission: CASTOR transport. Transport a wagonload of nuclear waste from A to B without harming any protesters
19:15<flaske>yeah, like a real communal train service
19:15<flaske>hehe or that Eddi|zuHause
19:16<@Bjarni>real commuter train services sometimes force people to change line but all stations still have rail connection even though they haven't got a direct service
19:16<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: I read about a protester who died. He changed himself to the track so he couldn't move when the train arrived
19:17<@Bjarni>and the driver though "he will move" since he didn't see the handcuffs
19:17<@Bjarni>or something like that
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause>night...
19:19-!-Roujin_ is now known as Roujin
19:19<flaske>g'night dude
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19:44<flaske>g'night dude
19:44<flaske>would you like camel case for variables too? not only functions?
19:45<flaske>like "CounterVariable"? i kinda like "counterVariable" with lowercase start
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20:16<flaske>alright,ill keep you guys posted
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21:51<Fennec>whaaaat?
21:51<Fennec>oops, wrong channel
21:51<Fennec>*scoots over to -coop*
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22:04-!-Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
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22:51-!-fmauNeko is now known as fmauNekAway
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23:08<heldey>I think it's the first time I see a complete fundraiser
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 15 00:00:09 2008