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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-15

---Logopened Fri Aug 15 00:00:09 2008
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04:12<@peter1138>Pom te pom.
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04:32*peter1138 wonders how to do tunnels in a generic way.
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04:45<dih>peter1138, dig a hole each end and dig towards eachother, you should meet at some point :-P
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05:07<Wolf01>do underground levels, so we can dig tunnels for you and is not anymore your problem
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05:17<Ammler>if you like something to change there, it might be cool, to have level changes and curves in tunnels:
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i'd really like tunnel types similar to bridge types
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>maybe even with speedlimits
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05:28<Kloopy_>A full implementation of underground levels would also enable underground rail networks.
05:29<SpComb>now we're talking
05:29<Kloopy_>(stations would obviously have to have a surface entrance though)
05:29<Kloopy_>haha, I think it's a bit more than "talking" that's required for that. :P
05:29<SpComb>underground cities
05:29<SpComb>underground airports
05:29<SpComb>and, of course, undeground ships
05:29<SpComb>*now* we're talking
05:30<Wolf01>-> [11:09:28] <peter1138> No.
05:30<Kloopy_>Hey, we could also implement a rollercoaster type rail and vehicle and have underground rollercoasters!
05:30<fonso>Underground ships isn't weird enough. There are actually canal tunnels
05:30<Kloopy_>And we could add balloon shops!
05:31<SpComb>underground baloons?
05:31<SpComb>they wouldn't be able to float away
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>like rectangular wheels wouldn't be able to roll backwards?
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05:52<@peter1138>Ammler, also No.
05:52<@peter1138>I am doing RAIL TYPES. This does not include NEW TUNNEL FEATURES.
05:56<Ammler>I see, but a nice idea, isn't :-)
05:59<@peter1138>It's not exactly a new idea.
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06:38<ln>what is "download" in elvish?
06:39<Noldo>why do you ask?
06:39<ln>that's irrelevant.
06:41<Mchl>which elvish?
06:41<Noldo>Mchl: I take ln as a more of Quenya kind of person
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06:42*Mchl goes to his Silmarillion notes
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06:51<Mchl>'netsino' could be close as meaning 'get here' :P
06:53<@Bjarni>ln: I know we talked about a Klingon translation of OpenTTD but we decided against it. I think the same will happen to Elvish
06:54<ln>Bjarni: don't worry, i'm not planning such.
06:54<ln>and the Klingon one already exists with the codename "Danish"
06:54<Mchl>I assume Khuzdul s also out of question?
06:55<Yorick>or piglatin?
06:56<Mchl>piglatin is not even a language, Khuzdul is
06:56<Yorick>piglatin is in openttd, Khuzdul isn't
06:56<Mchl>thousands of Dwarves speak it!
06:58<ln>looks like it should be spelled "Khuzdûl", as we have UTF-8.
06:59<@Bjarni>I was a bit surprised at pig latin
06:59<@Bjarni>who knew that pigs could speak latin?
07:00<@Bjarni>and plays OpenTTD
07:00<Mchl>ln:it should, but I don't trust my IRC client
07:00<Mchl>how about Lojban?
07:01<ln>we have a piglatin-style word in finnish, "pig's german", which means 'gibberish'.
07:01<Yorick>jarnibay idntday nowkay hatday
07:02<Noldo>oh, that's how it works
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07:02<Noldo>I've used similar language but the word used in it was 'vede'
07:03<Amixbook>could someone send me Industrial Stations Renewal v0.7.0 ?
07:03<Amixbook>i only find 0.7.1 or 0.6.0 online
07:03<@peter1138>It's in the ISR thread.
07:03<@Bjarni>why do you want 0.7.0 when there is 0.7.1?
07:04<Yorick>Bjarni: network games
07:04<@peter1138>Oh... you want 0.7.0... heh...
07:10<Amixbook>Yorick: i cant login to the !Mega servers
07:10<Amixbook>as it requires Industrial Stations Renewal v0.7.0
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07:11<Yorick>Amixbook: hmm, I supplied updated maps
07:11<Amixbook>its not that
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07:11<Amixbook>it doesnt want to take v0.7.1
07:11<Yorick>try the 7.0 legacy
07:11<Amixbook>your megaservers
07:12<Yorick>and they aren't mine :)
07:12<Ammler>please do not ask same question in 2 different channels :P
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07:13<Amixbook>question is a question
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07:14<Tekky>Hi everyone. I have started a poll in the forums about whether YAPP signals should be renamed (currently they are called "advanced signals"). Here is the link:
07:14<Tekky>Does anyone know whether adding a new option to a poll resets all poll results to 0? Does this happen even if people are permitted to change their vote?
07:16<Amixbook>got 0.6.0
07:16<Amixbook>7.2 got 0.7.1
07:16<Amixbook>buth the mega servers requires 0.7.0
07:17<Amixbook>is the one responsible for !Mega's servers here?
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07:19<Yorick>Amixbook: he doesn't like irc...
07:20<Yorick>try 7.1 legacy pack
07:20<Tekky>Current results: 5 votes for renaming YAPP "advanced signals", not a single vote for keeping the name :-)
07:20<Tekky>But I guess it is enough if we rename them before OpenTTD 0.7 is released.
07:20<@peter1138>I haven't voted, but my vote is worth 20 of your normal votes.
07:21<Noldo>peter1138: :)
07:21<Tekky>peter1138: damn :-(
07:21<@peter1138>And I vote for either leaving them as is.
07:21<Yorick>what would you vote
07:21<@peter1138>If you must, renamed them to PBS, as that is what people are used to.
07:21<Tekky>yes, nobody calls them "advanced signals" in common speech.
07:21<Yorick>but they're not the same as the ttdpatch pbs
07:22<@peter1138>They're still PBS signals.
07:22<@peter1138>OpenTTD's original PBS was called PBS, and that was very unlike TTDPatch's...
07:22<Amixbook>Yorick: could you tell him to upgrade to 0.7.1 atleast?
07:23<Tekky>the new YAPP OpenTTD PBS signals are much more like TTDPatch PBS signals.
07:23<Yorick>Amixbook: just tell him at
07:23<Amixbook>frustrating when i have downloaded all grfs
07:23<Amixbook>and the remaining one is Industrial Stations Renewal v0.7.0
07:23<Tekky>especially since TTDPatch introducted "through signals":
07:24<Tekky>the only difference between TTDPatch "through signals" and OpenTTD YAPP one-way signals are the default graphics :-)
07:25<Ammler>Amixbook: it doesn't need
07:25<Ammler>thats why we have the legacy packs :-)
07:26<Tekky>so, peter1138, I suggest you give your 20 votes to "PBS signals", because they are so similar to TTDPatch PBS signals. :-)
07:26<Yorick>peter1138 is not the only developr...
07:27<Amixbook>well, Industrial Stations Renewal v0.7.1 doesnt work with Industrial Stations Renewal v0.7.0
07:27<Ammler>Tekky: why do you care about the name that much?
07:27<Amixbook>says v0.7.0
07:27<Yorick>Ammler: because it is confusing
07:27<Amixbook>but download is changed to v0.7.1
07:27<Ammler>well, I give up
07:27<Yorick>Amixbook: that's the branch-thingie, I think
07:28<@peter1138>Ammler, I was thinking that too ;)
07:28<Ammler>so you didn't find the old one in legacy pack?
07:28<Amixbook>thats why its frustrating
07:29<Ammler>Amixbook: do you bet?
07:29<Amixbook>i even got dutch tram set r15 in the end
07:29<Tekky>Ammler: The name "advanced signals" is not appropriate, I think, because it is never used in common speech and also will never be. Therefore, I believe it should be renamed to something more descriptive, such as "PBS signals".
07:29<Amixbook>Ammler: i have tried all of the packages
07:29<@peter1138>They're referenced in the code as PBS too.
07:30<@peter1138>And I like the yellow dot ;)
07:30<Amixbook>or macosx screws with me, but i know
07:30<Ammler>Amixbook: show me the server...
07:31<Amixbook>its the !Mega's
07:32<Amixbook>!Mega's Europe Map @
07:33<Yorick>Ammler: I got your approval for it...
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07:34<Tekky>peter1138: Well, I'd prefer that YAPP PBS signals are given the standard simple signal graphics and that the legacy signals will be given special graphics instead.
07:35<Tekky>peter1138: I'd prefer the yellow dot being used instead for distant signals, which tell a train to slow down because the next main signal is red.
07:35<@Bjarni> <Amixbook> or macosx screws with me, but i know <-- it really shouldn't matter which OS you use
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07:37<Amixbook>it would be fine if someone got 0.7.0
07:37<Amixbook>and sent it
07:38<Ammler>omg, why do we all that work :-(
07:44<planetmaker>Amixbook: just download the #openttdcoop grfpack 7.2 legacy and you should have the ISR 0.7.0 - I guess :) Not entirely sure though.
07:45<planetmaker>And tell your admin to upgrade.
07:45<Ammler>planetmaker: I am :-P
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07:45<planetmaker>:) The grfpack god hath spoken ;)
07:46<Ammler>else it would be a bug in our pack :-)
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07:46<Amixbook>planetmaker: 0.7.1 is there
07:47<planetmaker>Amixbook: that's the 7.2 pack. But the legacy has 0.7.0
07:48<planetmaker>you did care to actually look at our pack's download site? Then you'll find this link:
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07:50<Amixbook>planetmaker: yes, and there is no 0.7.0 there too
07:51<planetmaker>then maybe the legacy to pack 7.0
07:52<Ammler>is IS 7.1
07:52<Ammler>Amixbook: your problem isn't ISR, it is the dutchset
07:53<Ammler>they use not a coop grf version for that
07:54<Ammler>I could at least join the server, but the dutch trams don't allow me...
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07:55<Amixbook>found it in 7.0
07:57<Amixbook>its in legacy 7.0 or 7.1
07:57<Amixbook>i think
07:57<planetmaker>we told you :)
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07:58<Ammler>tell the server admin, he should use the GRFs for the server from one pack and not combine different packs.
07:58<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14074 /trunk/ (Makefile.bundle Makefile.msvc): -Codechange: split the bundle generation out of the main makefile so it can be reused for making bundles from MSVC compiles.
08:01<Ammler>Amixbook: in our pack is r20
08:01<Ammler>that one is r15, only. :-)
08:01<Ammler>so no reason for me to downgrade...
08:02<Ammler>sometimes our pack has newer versions then the author self :-)
08:06<Ammler>well, in that case, we have an old version, too. -> updated to r26
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08:09<Tekky>Does TTDPatch also have an IRC channel?
08:10<@peter1138>There's #tycoon but it's not dedicated to TTDPatch.
08:10<planetmaker>#tycoon maybe?
08:10<Tekky>Does anyone know where I can find the NewGRF specification? The ttdpatch wiki is down. :-(
08:10<Tekky>peter1138, planetmaker: thx
08:13<Ammler>there is a zipped version of the wiki
08:14<Ammler>but it might also be located at
08:15<Tekky>Owen Rudge already told me that the ttdpatch wiki will be up again in a few minutes.
08:15<@peter1138>There's a read only wiki some where... Might be wiki2
08:15<@peter1138>Yeah, it is.
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08:16<Tekky>What exactly is a NewGRF callback? Is that a piece of compiled object code, i.e. a compiled C function which takes parameters and returns a value?
08:18<@peter1138>It's an FSM driven by data (which could be considered byte code) from the GRF.
08:19<Tekky>FSM = finite state machine?
08:19<@peter1138>Using the same 'entry point' as a sprite look up, the GRF tells the so called 'resolver' what to check for and what response to give.
08:20<Tekky>I guess the NewGRF callbacks run in a sandbox, so they are no security issue?
08:21<@peter1138>There is no code involved, just data.
08:22<Tekky>hmmmm, the wiki article about FSM talks about "actions"..... that sounds dangerous to me :)
08:23<Amixbook>Thanks for the help!
08:23<Tekky>I hope this is all explained in the NewGRF specification?
08:23<@peter1138>It's all in the spec.
08:24<@peter1138>A chain of 'varactions' is followed leading to a final result.
08:25<@peter1138>Basically the only thing it can do is check variables and give a different response based on them.
08:25<Tekky>thx, I guess I will have to wait for orudge to get the ttdpatch wiki working again :-)
08:25<@peter1138>As I said, works fine.
08:26<Tekky>ah, thx... I will try it immediately.
08:26*orudge is just waiting for this script to finish scanning things
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08:37<Brianetta>Someone wants a back-patch to put YAPP into 0.6
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08:39<blathijs>Brianetta: Completely understandable, but hardly feasible I guess
08:39<blathijs>Brianetta: Just using a nightly is probably a better plan, then
08:40<frosch123>someone asked me the same lately. I replied him he should hire some programmer for a month. Then he answered that his from is resolved as ottd 0.6.2 already contains signal graphics :s
08:41<Brianetta>blathijs: Certainly better.
08:42<Tekky>Since when does OpenTTD actually support multiplayer? The original TTD did not support multiplayer, did it? Does TTDPatch support multiplayer?
08:42<@Rubidium>Tekky: since eons (somewhere in 0.3-ish IIRC)
08:44<Tekky>Does the original TTD and TTDPatch support multiplayer?
08:45<Rexxars>but they're crude
08:46<Rexxars>nothing like the awesome server browser, non-disconnecting awesome piece of multiplayer available in OTTD <3
08:48<Brianetta>TTD supports two players over serial or IPX
08:48<Brianetta>TTDPatch supports the same, as far as I know
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08:52<Ammler>back to the win/dos grf problem: how would it be, if we all would use the dos palette? as dos has more colors then win, all (specially the original) windows grfs should be convertable to dos, aren't they?
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08:54*Belugas is amazed at the numerous occurences of the infamous "we should" when it comes to feature wishes or discussions
08:55<@Belugas>noticed while back log reading...
08:55<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14075 /trunk/os/win32/installer/ (5 files): -Codechange: make the windows installer more platform aware and warn when the to-be-installed binary isn't the recommended one (or won't work at all).
08:55<fjb>Theoretically yes. But some authers may not allow to change their GRFs. And some GRFs are released only with the Windows palatte.
08:56<Ammler>fjb: well, if it is only the legal issue...
08:57<Ammler>I bet, they would agree, to a "autoconverter" in ottd...
08:57<Ammler>they just don't like if you decompile for altering...
08:57<Brianetta>Ammler: Problem would be compatibility with Patch, where most people use the Windows palette
08:58<Ammler>Brianetta: why? We still can use windows grfs too, they just would be converted to dos...
08:59<Brianetta>OK; what if you don't have the DOS version?
08:59<fjb>Always using the DOS palette would be a good thing. The palatte has to beconverted internally in OpenTTD anyway as almost nobody is running his display with 256 colors only.
08:59<Ammler>then you have the windows haven't you?
08:59<Brianetta>When you convert your Windows one, are the files the same as the real DOS ones?
08:59<Ammler>else it doesn't make sense :-)
08:59<Brianetta>The differing palettes are there because some people have different TTDs
09:00<Ammler>Brianetta: do you talk about original grfs?
09:00<Ammler>I gess the missing sprites won't be used in ottd.
09:00<Brianetta>Still a requirement as of today's trunk.
09:01<fjb>And OpenTTD can not automatically decide which GRF is a DOS one and which is an Windows one. You would have to kind of tag them or sort them into different directories.
09:01<Ammler>fjb: it does that already, somehow
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09:01<Ammler>with name and md5, I guess...
09:01<+glx>Ammler: yes but only for TTD files
09:01<fjb>The original GRFs are no problem, as OpenTTD can tell them apart and use both kinds.
09:02<+glx>it can't do it for newgrfs
09:02<fjb>Newgrfs would have to be separated by the user, maybe simply in different subdirectories of the data directory.
09:03<+glx>and many users will do it wrong and complain
09:03<Amixbook>is it possible to transport goods from a city to another city?
09:03<fjb>Or you could tag them in openttd.cfg.
09:03<Brianetta>Amixbook: Goods aren't produced by a city.
09:04<Ammler>fjb: the whole discussion is because of the original GRFs
09:04<Brianetta>They're produced (by default) in sawmills, factories and oil refineries.
09:04<fjb>The original GRFs are no problem at all.
09:04<Brianetta>You can deliver them to any city that accepts them.
09:04<Ammler>of course they are, not eveyone has windows GRF
09:04<Amixbook>i know
09:04<Ammler>and so those aren't able to join our server.
09:05<fjb>OpenTTD can tell them apart and can handle both types. That is the easy part.
09:05<Amixbook>but i didnt know if you could or couldnt between cities
09:05<Ammler>fjb: I see, you are a SP'ler ;-)
09:05<+glx>Ammler: they can join, they just have ugly colors
09:05<fjb>I'm a what?
09:06<fjb>Ammler: No, I already looked at the OpenTTD source relatetd to the palette conversion.
09:06<Brianetta>glx: They can't join
09:06<Brianetta>er, sorry, they can
09:06<Ammler>Brianetta: they can
09:06<Brianetta>but they're guaranteed horrid colours
09:07<Brianetta>Even though the dos version of the newgrfs would work, the MD5 system prohibits them.
09:07<@Rubidium>or desyncs because their newgrfs get disabled
09:07<Ammler>since ottd supports both, we hat 1 visitor at #openttdcoop with dos grfs :-)
09:08<Ammler>(at least 1, I know of)
09:08<Ammler>current solution is to tell him, downloading windows originals, which isn't that proper. :-(
09:08<fjb>It's a bit cluttered over some source files. OpenTTD can tell if it found the original files from the DOS or the Windows version. It the decides which palette to use for all GRFs. You can also force it to use the DOS palette if I'm not mistaken.
09:10<Ammler>but 1 fact: conversion from windows to dos: always ok, win-dos might be problematic.
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09:11<Ammler>dos-win should it be :-)
09:12<Ammler>and if ottd would do the conversion in the ram, you wouldn't have the legal problems...
09:13<+glx>it should be possible to use both palettes at the same time with 32bpp blitter I think
09:13<fjb>OpenTTD already kind of "converts" evrything when it is running on a display with more than 256 colors.
09:14<fjb>What happens internally aftrer the GRF is loaded is no legal problem.
09:14<+glx>but of course it will still be hard to determine the palette to use for newgrfs
09:15<fjb>There is already a routine to convert DOS palette to Windows palette in the code.
09:15<fjb>Telling which palette a newgrf uses is near impossible.
09:16<Brianetta>The newgrf dialogue could have a toggle-box for Windows or DOS. Players could toggle the toggles until it looked OK.
09:16<Ammler>well, we would then distribute only dos :-)
09:17<fjb>I also thought about that toggle. That or different directories. The toggle would be the cleaner solution.
09:17<Brianetta>Of course, the config file would need to haev some way of specifying palette, too
09:17<fjb>Ammler: You can not only distribute DOS GRfs, because some are relaesed Windows only.
09:18<Ammler>fjb: I know, I would need to ask the authors again...
09:18<Ammler>but I mean theoretically...
09:18<fjb>Enhacing the config file is really no problem.
09:18<Brianetta>How does it matter that DOS newgrfs have more colours available?
09:18<Brianetta>None of them actually use them.
09:19<Ammler>Brianetta: it seems original uses them
09:19<fjb>Ammler: I know about at least 3 people who would not easily do something special for OpenTTD.
09:19<Ammler>at least, if you convert original dos to windows, it doesn't look nice...
09:19<Ammler>GUI wise...
09:20<Ammler>fjb: but those have dos grfs already :-)
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09:20<fjb>Ammler: Are you sure that they are the only ones and will stay the only ones?
09:21<Ammler>actually, I know nobody...
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09:34<Eddi|zuHause> <ln> we have a piglatin-style word in finnish, "pig's german", which means 'gibberish'. <- we call that "Kauderwelsch" [especially when different languages are mixed]
09:35<@Bjarni>we call it Volapyk
09:35<@Bjarni>which is actually the name of some language
09:36<Prof_Frink>Double dutch!
09:37<@Bjarni>once in a while Russian can be used too as something nobody understands. However it's not used much
09:38<Prof_Frink>It's all Greek to me.
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>we say "Spanish" there...
09:41<@Bjarni>a rare expression is that something hard/impossible to understand is "a town in Russia"
09:42<@Bjarni>however I don't like the expressions that people elsewhere are dumb/impossible to say. Somehow it's not fair to those people
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes germans say "Ich versteh nur 'Bahnhof'."
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>("All i understand is 'train station'."
09:43<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: I'm English. It's up to johnny foreiner to learn our language. :p
09:43<@Bjarni>Im gut at engrish
09:44<@Bjarni>me speek goote English, ja?
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09:47<Eddi|zuHause>what does a process status of "SLl" mean?
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09:57<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14076 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Merge the four start/stop commands into a single CMD_START_STOP_VEHICLE.
09:58<fjb>SL? Spielleiter, kind of admin. :-)
09:59<ln>English only!
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: wrong context :p
10:04<Yorick>hm, wireless has quite a bit of packet loss
10:04<Yorick>3/146 is average here
10:06<ln>"Spielleiter, kind" = german
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>no, "kind" is not german... "Kind" would be...
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10:24<Eddi|zuHause>what's a T42p anyway?
10:24<hylje>a thinkpad to be more precise
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10:25<CelestarT42p>correct hylje
10:25<CelestarT42p>my workstation's ssh daemon died, so I can't connect to Celestar :P
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>that's unfortunate ;)
10:27<CelestarT42p>VERY :P
10:28<Yorick>just kill it with nickserv
10:28<SpComb>and your hg repo is also down?
10:28<SpComb>at least it was a week ago or so
10:30<CelestarT42p>SpComb: yeah
10:30<CelestarT42p>SpComb: made a new one.
10:30<CelestarT42p>Yorick: no need, I'm happy with my current nick
10:31<@peter1138> is fairly up to date.
10:31<Wolf01>ssh to your nearest power plant and cut the power for 15 minutes, so if you have an ups it should run out of batteries, the problem is: does it restart when the power will come back?
10:31<@peter1138>Actually, laughing at the last few commits...
10:33<hylje>how does one save hg repositories to memorizable names
10:34<hylje>hg can bind long urls to short tags
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10:38<Ammler>CelestarT42p: we had many desyncs with last test, are you aware of those?
10:38<Ammler>(no grfs)
10:39<CelestarT42p>Ammler: no
10:39<CelestarT42p>Ammler: when was that test?
10:39<Ammler>when did you test MP last time?
10:39<CelestarT42p>Ammler: a week ago maybe
10:39<CelestarT42p>peter1138: laughing at which ones? :P
10:40<Ammler>we did that on dev with svn r14000
10:40<planetmaker>should still be up and running.
10:41<planetmaker>hello, btw :)
10:41<Ammler>well, it seems you merged a lot since then, we should update it maybe.
10:44<CelestarT42p>Ammler: yeah maybe you should :)
10:44<CelestarT42p>Ammler: none of you used autoreplace and things like those?
10:44<hylje>CelestarT42p: probably merge merge merge
10:45<CelestarT42p>hylje: ?
10:45<hylje>the laughing stock
10:46<@peter1138>Yeah, top 4 commits :)_
10:46<CelestarT42p>food time
10:46<CelestarT42p>peter1138: yeah :P
10:46<CelestarT42p>but.. it works
10:47*peter1138 ponders syncing railtypes.
10:48<@peter1138>Actually quite a bit of it could go straight into trunk.
10:48<@peter1138>Mostly using properties for strings instead of relying on consecutive IDs.
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11:02*peter1138 ponders how to rewrite GetBestRailtype()
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11:04<Wolf01>define "best"
11:05*Belugas passes the opportunity
11:05<hylje>the most general-purpose one introduced the latest
11:06<Wolf01>so, elrail
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>the one that looks the cutest
11:06*hylje uses magic wand to create a pony-rail GRF
11:06<Wolf01>why not?
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i'd buy that :p
11:07-!-gord1 [] has joined #openttd
11:07<hylje>and for the guro-freaks out there, it's not about using ponies as sleepers
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11:09*Wolf01 wonders to have a nice far west scenery with railset, many horses and many natives assaulting the iron horse as disaster :D
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11:09<hylje>pony trails
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11:35<CelestarT42p>peter1138: any new commits by you?
11:38<@peter1138>I'm sure there are some stuck on galadriel?
11:38<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14077 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: MSVC projects re-ordering
11:39<CelestarT42p>peter1138: dunno
11:39<CelestarT42p>peter1138: will know on monday
11:40<CelestarT42p>peter1138: the blob size is the last thing I got by you
11:40<@peter1138>I've got a little sideline project going ;)
11:41<@Belugas>little ??
11:41<CelestarT42p>peter1138: sideline to trunk or sideline to cargodest? :P
11:42<@peter1138>Not related to cargodest :)
11:43<hylje>sideline in the rail network sense
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11:48<CelestarT42p>hylje: ?
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11:56<@peter1138>I'm still pondering tunnels.
11:56<@peter1138>And signals.
11:56<@peter1138>And bridges...
11:56<@peter1138>And crossings...
11:58<frosch123>bridges: draw a overlay over the existing bridgefloors - like trams
12:00-!-gord [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
12:05<CelestarT42p>peter1138: er what are you doin? :P
12:19-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
12:21<CelestarT42p>Ammler: you around?
12:22<CelestarT42p>Ammler: so when about can we do another MP test with cargodest?
12:22<CelestarT42p>Ammler: and I need to think of a way to disable autoreplace during that test
12:23<CelestarT42p>Ammler: k. When I'm back home tomorrow evening
12:23<CelestarT42p>Ammler: tell me a bit about the desyncs you got during the last test
12:24<frosch123>CelestarT42p: Make CheckAutoreplaceValidity() return false
12:24<CelestarT42p>frosch123: thanks
12:24<Ammler>CelestarT42p:hmm, can't really
12:24<CelestarT42p>Ammler: k, np
12:24<Ammler>desyncs happen very fast
12:24<Ammler>maybe someone else like Progman can tell more
12:25<Ammler>I wasn't online that much..
12:25<CelestarT42p>Ammler: for all players?
12:25<Ammler>yep, also if you are alone there
12:27-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:27<Ammler>the server is still online at
12:27<CelestarT42p>I see
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12:36<CelestarT42p>Mucht: you know a bit about latex right?
12:37<Mucht>just a bit CelestarT42p
12:37<CelestarT42p>"paper.tex:0: Bad DIV-value!(typearea) You should e.g. increase DIV, decrease fontsize(typearea) or change papersize."
12:37<CelestarT42p>does this mean anything to you?
12:38<Mucht>yes, I know now that you use the koma package
12:38-!-stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
12:38<CelestarT42p>yeah, the template I got uses it
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12:39<Mucht>give me your line of \documentclass
12:40<CelestarT42p>%%% use twocolumn and 10pt options
12:40<CelestarT42p>er sorry for the comment :P
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12:55*peter1138 >home
12:55<Wolf01>oh, back
12:55<Wolf01>I felt alone
12:55<Tekky>@seen KUDr
12:55<@DorpsGek>Tekky: KUDr was last seen in #openttd 42 weeks, 2 days, 2 hours, 28 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <KUDr> good
12:55<CelestarT42p>42 weeks?
12:55<CelestarT42p>not sure that is correct
12:55-!-Mchl [] has quit [Quit: nice weekend to all]
12:55<Tekky>I'm afraid it is :-( The author of YAPF has no idea that his pathfinder now supports PBS :-)
12:56-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:56<CelestarT42p>Tekky: the question is: who does understand YAPF now? ;)
12:56<Tekky>hehe, I am trying to study it myself :)
12:57<Tekky>but I haven't been successful, yet :)
12:57<Tekky>But my knowledge of C++ templates has skyrocketed in the last few days :)
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12:57<CelestarT42p>Tekky: :D
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13:00<Tekky>Ah, nice, in my poll about renaming YAPP "advanced signals", already 22 people have voted:
13:00<Tekky>And only one single vote for keeping the name "advanced signals" :)
13:01<CelestarT42p>considering that I would LOVE to have advance signals at some point, advanced signals sounds dangerous :P
13:01<Tekky>yep :)
13:02<CelestarT42p>I want to call them signals
13:02<Tekky>I think YAPP "advanced signals" are actually a lot simpler to use than legacy TTD signals or presignals.
13:02<frosch123>though I wonder why the title of the poll is not an option, i.e. "yapp signals"
13:02<CelestarT42p>because they work basically how RL signals work
13:02<Tekky>frosch123: because noone suggested it yet :)
13:02<frosch123>"real signals" :p
13:02<CelestarT42p>hm ...
13:02*CelestarT42p looks up in
13:02<frosch123>Tekky: and I guess it is not a good idea, too
13:03<Tekky>frosch123: I think it was a good idea before YAPP got into trunk. But now that YAPP is in trunk, I don't consider the name appropriate, anymore.
13:04<Tekky>I still can't believe that YAPP made it into trunk :) This was a historic moment for OpenTTD.....
13:05<CelestarT42p> <= I love this
13:05<CelestarT42p>like a chrismas tree
13:05<@Bjarni>interesting signal page
13:05<@Bjarni> <-- we have a system like this one
13:06<@Bjarni>it's still in use
13:06<Tekky>hehe, yes, now that's what I call a "combo signal" :)
13:06<@Bjarni>AFAIK there aren't any plans to replace it
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13:13<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the problem when you make too many suggestions... you don't know which one to chose yourself :p
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause>we urgently need base costs per grf...
13:21<@peter1138>No we don't
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>the vehicles of HOVS are 20 times more expensive than the vehicles of the German RV Set
13:21<@peter1138>We need base costs fixed by the difficulty setting, and individual costs given a larger range.
13:22<@peter1138>Things like that happen even when the sets are used individually.
13:23<@peter1138>I wonder what sort of range is needed.
13:23<@peter1138>Maybe a 16 bit value covering 4 bits either side of the current 8 bit value?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>you should ask that to the newgrf authors ;)
13:23<@peter1138>Or 32 bits covering 16 and 8 bits either side...
13:25<frosch123>or a 4 bit exponent :p
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13:28<Eddi|zuHause>the vehicles of HOVS are insanely expensive anyway...
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>a Model T costs the same as a BR 92
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13:29<@peter1138>So individual base costs does not solve the problem of cost balance. This is the main reason why I didn't do it.
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>but they are even more insanely expensive when they cost 4 times as much :p
13:31<CelestarT42p>I've *tried* to tackle the cost problem
13:31-!-|Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
13:31<CelestarT42p>there's no way to do it with newgrfs
13:31<CelestarT42p>unless you keep track of all the grfs and adjust them individually
13:31<Yorick>CelestarT42p: afaik the base costs are stored per vehicle
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, each newgrf author has a different opinion on what the prices should be
13:32<CelestarT42p>Yorick: yeah, but you cannot just override them, can you? I mean you can, but with a logical value?
13:32<Yorick>you could make the base costs grf-specific for a start
13:33<Ammler>if you would keep it per grf, you could overrule it if needed, that isn't possible now...
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>we were discussing that already, and peter1138 did not want that
13:33<CelestarT42p>Yorick: that's a hell of a work
13:33<CelestarT42p>Yorick: you'd need a maintainer for all those cost bases
13:33<CelestarT42p>that guy would need to play and judge what would be best ..
13:34<@Bjarni>you could make a (cost, power, year, speed) calculation on each grf and calculate a multiplier for each
13:34<@Bjarni>the issue would be... which formula to make that multiplier?
13:34<Yorick>CelestarT42p: I mean only apply the base costs set by a newgrf to the vehicles of that grf
13:34<Yorick>and not globally
13:38<@peter1138>Even the patch authors agreed that letting GRF authors change the base costs was a bad idea...
13:39<CelestarT42p>we *could* override them
13:39<Yorick>peter1138: what about only letting them change their own base costs
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i need to make a list of patches that i need to apply to each build...
13:39<@peter1138>There are 49 base costs, and you'd need a local copy for all GRFs.
13:39<frosch123>lets include TTDAlter into the cheat window :p
13:40<Yorick>(and the ones they set a modifier to)
13:40<@peter1138>What about landscape altering costs?
13:40<CelestarT42p>peter1138: what about forgetting newgrfs and resuming cargodest :P
13:40<@peter1138>Yorick, there is no such thing as 'their own base costs'
13:40<Yorick>peter1138: for vehicles, I believe they are stored for each vehicle
13:40<@peter1138>CelestarT42p, I have little to add at the moment, except the cargo display in the vehicle window.
13:40<@peter1138>Yorick, you believe incorrectly.
13:41<CelestarT42p>peter1138: I dunno if there is much more to add before a full-scale test imho
13:41<@peter1138>CelestarT42p, I still want your changes that are stuck ;)
13:41<CelestarT42p>peter1138: I *think* everything is on arwen
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>is ther a current daylength patch?
13:42<CelestarT42p>peter1138: as I'm not devving on galadriel at all
13:42<@peter1138>There is a base cost, and a cost factor. Base cost is global, and cost factor is per vehicle, but is currently 8 bits. Changing that to 16 bits would help the problem, because then GRF authors wouldn't need to touch the base cost...
13:42<@peter1138>CelestarT42p, yes, but I think there were some changes there that I hadn't synced. Could be wrong of course.
13:43<@Belugas>Yorick, do not mix cost multiplier and base cost
13:43<@Belugas>i think this is what yu do
13:43<Yorick>I think I do...
13:43<@peter1138>(Per engine type, rather than vehicle as it is in the game)
13:43<CelestarT42p>peter1138: then pull them from arwen. she should have everything
13:43<Yorick>I mean cost multiplier yes
13:43<@Belugas>err... that's what peter1138 is saying ^_^
13:43<@Belugas>cost multiplier isnot a problem, it's the base cost that is
13:44<@Belugas>and that's the cost been affected by the inflation and all
13:44<Yorick>Belugas: hmm, the long vehicles and german tram set doesn't work nicely together
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>Beim Laden von ist folgender Fehler aufgetreten:
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>Keine Verbindung zu Rechner
13:45<@Belugas>not my problem ^_^
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>:o ?
13:45<Yorick>same here
13:45<Yorick>can't connect to
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>the topic might be restored now... ;)
13:47<@peter1138>VERB! IN! DUNG!
13:47<@peter1138>German is crazy.
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>a language is only as crazy as the person that is reading it :p
13:47-!-fmauNekAway is now known as fmauNeko
13:47<Yorick>"Firefox kan geen verbinding maken met de server op"
13:49<@peter1138>To be fair, it is called 'base_cost' in the code :(
13:49<CelestarT42p>am I the only one who has his comp set to en_US or en_UK ?
13:49<CelestarT42p>peter1138: We'll need a code review at some point and I think Rubidium has volunteered :P
13:50<@peter1138>Mine is en_GB.UTF-8 too.
13:50<CelestarT42p>er sorry en_GB
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>> locale
13:50<CelestarT42p>I *never* set my locale to something else than en_*
13:51<CelestarT42p>because you only get non-googlable error messages
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>i never set my locale... it always happens to be automatically detected ;)
13:51<CelestarT42p>er .. who installed your system :P
13:51<FauxFaux>On a related note, clearly we need a UK units setting, such that we can have miles/mph/stones/litres/.. etc. ¬_¬
13:52<CelestarT42p>imperial gallons that would be :P
13:52<+glx>FauxFaux: there's a dropdown in options
13:52-!-KillaloT [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:52<FauxFaux>It only has full imperial, metric or si, UK is.. strange. :)
13:52<@peter1138>Imperial *is* UK...
13:52<@Belugas>invasion of the "we"...
13:53<FauxFaux>Lies, weight and volume are now done with metric.
13:53<CelestarT42p>FauxFaux: IRL?
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>FauxFaux: they also are in the game, afaik
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't like the "SI" setting... speeds in m/s are weird...
13:54<FauxFaux>Mmm, it does appear to have volume in litres, I'm sure I saw ounces or something like that somewhere.
13:55<FauxFaux>Ah, and feet.
13:55<@peter1138>ounces is a bit small, and is of course a measurement of mass...
13:55<CelestarT42p>yeah I always measure the weight of cargo in a train in ounces :P
13:55<@peter1138>Belugas, 16 or 32 bits?
13:55<FauxFaux>Fluid ounces? :p
13:55<@peter1138>!= ounces
13:55<FauxFaux>I know. :)
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>fluid ounces are different from ounces
13:56<CelestarT42p>isn't a flounce a measurement of volume?
13:56<@peter1138>fl. ounce, yes.
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>and of course i have no idea how much either of them are
13:56*FauxFaux either.
13:56<CelestarT42p>Eddi|zuHause: an ounce is about 30grams
13:56<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: Twentieth of a pint.
13:56<@peter1138>Americans know, but not in relation to any other real unit.
13:56<CelestarT42p>hm ..
13:57<FauxFaux>Yeah, but UK (imperial) and US pints are different sizes.
13:57<@peter1138>I suppose 32 bit makes sense from a 'won't ever need to change it' point of view?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>in america they sold 96 fl oz bottles of cola
13:57<Prof_Frink>FauxFaux: That's why I said "twentieth"
13:57<CelestarT42p>cuz a US gallon is about 3.8 liters and an imperial gallon is about 4.5
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>that looked roughly like 2l
13:57<@Belugas>[13:55] <@peter1138> Belugas, 16 or 32 bits? <-- reading back
13:57*FauxFaux wishes the UK would just switch to km/h so I could sneer at all imperial units. :p
13:58<CelestarT42p>fathoms per fortnight
13:58<Prof_Frink>CelestarT42p: Furlongs is more conventional
13:58<@Belugas>peter1138, i'd say 16 would be enough
13:59<CelestarT42p>heh. maybe Belugs wants to review cargodest? (=
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>do we really have that kind of space problems that we need to negotiate bits on a per-vehicle-type basis?
13:59<@Belugas>mmmh... but then....
13:59<@peter1138>Belugas, that only leaves 4 bits either side.
13:59-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:00<@Belugas>THINK BIG... let's go 32 bits!
14:00<Prof_Frink>Belugas: Why stop there?
14:01<CelestarT42p>the routing diff against trunk is already about 5000 lines
14:01<@peter1138>I'm thinking 32 bits, and multiply the original stuff by 256 (8 bit shift)
14:01<@peter1138>Allows for small values, but also MASSIVE values ;)(
14:01<@peter1138>Also doing the same for running cost factor
14:02<CelestarT42p>Ammler: when you tested cargodest, do you use identical boost versions?
14:03<Yorick>CelestarT42p: boost is only used for drawing the graphs, right?
14:03<CelestarT42p>Yorick: er now.
14:04<CelestarT42p>Yorick: "graph" not "graphics"
14:04<CelestarT42p>Yorick: boost is the graph
14:04<Ammler>that might easy be possible
14:04<CelestarT42p>Yorick: graph in the mathematical sense, not the GUI sense
14:04<Yorick>ok :)
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>my daylength patch of r12874 doesn't apply anymore :(
14:07<CelestarT42p>Yorick: we basicall
14:07<CelestarT42p>Yorick: we basically abstract the Order database in a graph
14:07<CelestarT42p>Yorick: and then do a pathfinding on the graph
14:07<CelestarT42p>Yorick: and cache the data of said pathfinding
14:08<Yorick>using libraries for something that could desync with different versions is a rather bad idea
14:08<+glx>it will be in 3rdparty at one time
14:09<CelestarT42p>Yorick: what glx said
14:09*Belugas approves peter1138's way and is very sad to see Prof_Frink's madness once more been shown
14:09<CelestarT42p>Yorick: we'll import boost into the source tree, so that we have a common base
14:09<@Belugas>but that was expected...
14:10<CelestarT42p>Yorick: it's a header-only implementation anyway
14:11<CelestarT42p>peter1138: so should I remove all the GetStationName thing now or wait until this is desync-tested?
14:13*peter1138 wonders if GetVehicleProperty should be done differently
14:13<@peter1138>CelestarT42p... er... should be okay for the desync test.
14:13<CelestarT42p>peter1138: just so that debugging is easier (by using names)?
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>- highest_value = x_axis_offset * 2;
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>+ highest_value=0;
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>that does not look like it has anything to do with daylength...
14:24-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>i hate it when i accidentally watch "live" TV... i forget that i can't skip the commercials...
14:38<Wolf01>eh, vehicles are really smart, I used a roadstop as waypoint with the go-via order, but vehicles instead of stop at the station behind the waypoint they do a weird travel and try to go at the roadstop they might have wanted to go without the waypoint
14:41<Wolf01>ok, now the situation is normalised
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14:43<Yorick>"clients: 137 / 1512 (9.06%)"
14:43<Yorick>I think we can shut down some 135.1 servers
14:43-!-ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
14:44<Noldo>who's we?
14:44<Yorick>the server admins
14:44<@Belugas>ho... you are one Yorick?
14:44<Yorick>heh, someones using r9896
14:44<@Belugas>for coopopenttd, i meant
14:44<Yorick>Belugas: we not including me
14:45<Yorick>companies: 570 / 1144 (49.83%) :)
14:45<@Belugas>haaa... I forgot... that is indeed the general rule on this channel :)
14:45<Brianetta>Nobody's hopped on my new game yet
14:46<@Belugas>i wold gladly do that Brianetta, if my boss was not watching over my time sheet ;)
14:46<Brianetta>Oh, Belugas, you're a dev type and will probably know:
14:46<@Belugas>damned.. i forgot,, i have a boss a t home too...
14:47<Brianetta>I'm planning to aggressively test the server with grvts for desyncs
14:47<Brianetta>well, a server, at home
14:47<Brianetta>Is it a problem to run the dedicated server and a client from the same folder? They're on an NFS share.
14:47<Yorick>don't think it is
14:47<Brianetta>If there's no issue with temporary files, etc, I won't have to change much.
14:48<Yorick>only the config
14:48<@Belugas>I doubt you'll have trouble, we do not have temp files
14:48<Brianetta>Just the network save
14:48<Brianetta>which clients will ignore
14:49<@Belugas>but Yorick may have a point. I thnk you'll have an option to specify where openttd.cfg might be located
14:49<Yorick>clients will make their own
14:49<@Belugas>i thnk
14:49<@Belugas>and yes, the saves...
14:49<Brianetta>It's OK, config is configurable...
14:49<Brianetta>and autosave will be off
14:50<@Belugas>but hey... i'm so much not a network guru...
14:50<Brianetta>I'm going to hammer the save from my last Standard game
14:50<Yorick>someone should teach clients about them sharing the drive with the server so they can read the save instead of downloading it :-)
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14:50<Brianetta>Yorick: In this case, the server's on the NFS server, so it wouldn't save much
14:52<frosch123><Brianetta> I'm planning to aggressively test the server with grvts for desyncs <- maybe you want to wait for the new autoreplace...
14:52<Brianetta>frosch123: It's not autoreplace related
14:52<Brianetta>I suspect it's newgrf related
14:52<Brianetta>I'm testing 0.6.2, you see (:
14:53<frosch123>ah, ok :)
14:53<Brianetta>If I can get that to desync predictably, I'll re-test with trunk
14:53<Brianetta>If that desyncs, I have a case for Rubidium
14:53-!-Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:56<+glx><Brianetta> Is it a problem to run the dedicated server and a client from the same folder? <-- I do it often
14:56<Brianetta>glx: Thanks. Reassuring.
14:56<CelestarT42p>peter1138: about autosave, does or does it not cause desyncs ?
14:57<Brianetta>brian@rose ~/o/bin> ./openttd --help
14:57<Brianetta>./openttd: error while loading shared libraries: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
14:57<Brianetta>That used to work.
14:57<Brianetta>I used to be able to run a dedicated server on the X-less machine from the binary linked against SDL.
14:58<Brianetta>Looks like I'm going to have to duplicate the directory and recompile anyway.
14:59-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:00<CelestarT42p>gotta go
15:00-!-CelestarT42p [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:01<Ammler>Brianetta: we do also use egrvts on ps
15:01<Ammler>without desyncs
15:03<Kloopy_>What's the default "intended" setting for the "Plane speed factor" patch?
15:03<Ammler>what does that mean: dbg: [ms] Vehicle 149 (index 2340) arrived at wrong stop
15:03<Yorick>I wonder...
15:03<Ammler>Kloopy_: 1/4 is in TTD
15:03-!-Roujin [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:04<frosch123>Ammler: That you are using drive through stops
15:04<+glx>it's a multistop debug message
15:04<Ammler>planespeed 1/1 is like cheating, because income won't be balanced
15:04<frosch123>in multipstops
15:04<Kloopy_>Ok, that's cool. We normally play with 1/4 but I wondered if that's because I'm server and what I set it to myself... if that's default it's fine. I just wanted to make even MORE money in some of my clan's multiplayer games. :P
15:04<Kloopy_>Ammler, at 1/4 income isn't balanced.
15:04<+glx>but speed is
15:05<Kloopy_>Tbh, should they not move at 1/1 speed but earn something like 1/8'th the income?
15:05<Ammler>Kloopy_: just do not allow to many planes, about 10-20
15:06<Kloopy_>hehe, I don't want to suggest that to the clan because I start with planes, make loads of money and then use that to make a massive efficient train network.
15:06<Ammler>frosch123: wrong stop does mean?
15:06<Kloopy_>The other players I play with should do the same, but they never learn!
15:06<Ammler>Kloopy_: use my basecost grf :-)
15:06<Brianetta>Unknown option --enable_desync_debug
15:06<Brianetta>> ./configure --help | grep desync
15:06<Brianetta> --enable_desync_debug=[LVL] enable desync debug options (LVL=[012], 0 is none
15:06<Brianetta>brian@rose ~/openttd-0.6-dedicated>
15:07<frosch123>Ammler: The RV reserved a slot in another stop but while driving there it stopped in a different stop.
15:07<Yorick>Brianetta: desync debug isn't in 0.6
15:07<frosch123>Celestar is already assigned for fixing :)
15:07<+glx>use - not _
15:07<Brianetta>Yorick: Interestingly, the configure script knows about it
15:07<Yorick>heh :)
15:07<+glx>don't listen to Yorick
15:07<Brianetta>glx: Ah; misleading help
15:08<+glx>probably a c/p problem ;)
15:08-!-ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:08<Brianetta>Yes; I used C/P
15:09<Brianetta>I'm taking this off NFS
15:09<+glx>btw it's still wrong in trunk :)
15:09<Brianetta>The debugging log will eat my network alive
15:09*glx will look at that
15:09<Ammler>many options in config.lib aren't documented somewhere else...
15:16<Ammler>where else would I find --without-personal-dir?
15:18<Ammler>I have such a screwed GRF repo in my personal dir, sometimes I need a clean build to setup a scenario for a grfpack...
15:19<Ammler>I would love to sort grfs with paths... :-)
15:19<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14079 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: misleading help in configure
15:19<Kloopy_>I've found a "bug". It may well not be new to anyone, but trains can't crash into themselves.
15:19<FauxFaux>Stupid question time: Any reports of the latest stable massively desynching on toyland, as it's doing it to everyone in this game on a machine that's been running other tilesets fine. :/
15:19<+glx>Kloopy_: not a bug
15:19<Brianetta>Kloopy_: Well known (:
15:19<Kloopy_>ok :)
15:20<Brianetta>We used to call it "train spooling" on the openttdcoop server
15:20<Kloopy_>It's an awesome way to setup a queue for a busy station.
15:20<Brianetta>If you can find a practical way to use it, sure
15:20<Ammler>glx: is there a "system" which options are documented, which not?
15:20<@Belugas>"I've found a bugueueueueueueue, tralalalereueueueueu"
15:21<+glx>Ammler: no
15:22<+glx>Kloopy_: though I think it can't happen with YAPP
15:22<Kloopy_>I have no signals down, so it'll be behaving like a standard signal block?
15:22<Ammler>Kloopy_: if you would do such things on a well administrated server, you should be banned...
15:23<Brianetta>Ammler: Not at all (:
15:23<Brianetta>Like I said, there's no practical application
15:23-!-ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
15:23<Ammler>Brianetta: reminds me of your Deathmath server :-)
15:24*Prof_Frink likes the idea of deathmaths
15:26<Prof_Frink>Kloopy_: I did that in TTWE. I then wondered how to deal with it.
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: i'd totally πwn everyone :p
15:28<@peter1138>The deathmatch server was odd.
15:28<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: I dunno, Brianetta's pretty mean with a sliderule
15:28<@peter1138>Despite the rules, everyone still played nice...
15:28<Brianetta>I am
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>Kloopy_: trains did that already in original TT
15:29<Brianetta>Deathmatch was pretty cool. I might bring it back occasionally.
15:29<Ammler>I had never chance to play there
15:29<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: And then they were stuck
15:29<Yorick>making trains able to crash into itself crashes them with depots
15:29<Brianetta>It was a riot of colour.
15:29<Prof_Frink>TTO/TTWE had no "reverse train" button
15:29<Brianetta>Yorick: And adjacent wagons in the same train...
15:30-!-GT [] has joined #openttd
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: err... i think they had... or they would turn around when sending to depot etc.
15:31-!-GT [] has left #openttd []
15:31<Prof_Frink>I eventually sent a Chippie class in for a mercy killing
15:32<Ammler>is it still possible to bridge bought land?
15:33<+glx>why wouldn't it be possible?
15:33<Ammler>glx: I could use the unliked word :-P
15:34<Brianetta>dbg: [net] 'Brianetta #1' reported an error and is closing its connection (desync error)
15:34<Brianetta>I have desync logs
15:34<Brianetta>w00t (:
15:34<Yorick>Brianetta: did you do anything?
15:34<Yorick>is it reproducable?
15:34<Brianetta>Nothing but watch.
15:34<Brianetta>Just wait.
15:34<Ammler>but well, then you need to reserve land with stations
15:34<Ammler>or with bridges :-)
15:34<+glx>Brianetta: now diff server.log client.log
15:35<Brianetta>glx: 1. They're different lengths. 2. It wouldn't tell me an awful lot.
15:36<Yorick>Brianetta: I'm afraid you did something wrong
15:36<Ammler>DevBlackBook :-o
15:36<Yorick>Ammler: you didn't know if it?
15:36<+glx>right, you should first remove all server lines before the client join
15:37<Ammler>I knew that desync debug page
15:37<Ammler>but never realized that link
15:37<Ammler>has it a index?
15:37<Yorick>but some stuff is outdated
15:38<Yorick>some if not all
15:38<Ammler>(I mean the te index, not the "outdated")
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15:56<Tekky>Damn, I think I have too many options in my poll about renaming YAPP signals. I'm afraid none of the option will get a 50% majority. :-(
15:57<Fennec>so hold a runoff
15:57<Yorick>removing one would upset people
15:57<guru3>what does yapp stand for?
15:57<Tekky>unless of course peter1138 uses his 20 votes to vote for the "PBS signals" :)
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's why germany introduced the 5% rule, to reduce the number of parties to the really relevant one
15:57<Yorick>yet another pbs patch
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>Tekky: you're way too impatient with the poll... let it run for two weeks
15:58<guru3>it looks complicated
15:58<Tekky>Eddi: I'm just bored, not impatient :)
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>guru3: it's really easy
15:59<guru3>i think OpenTTD is really easy to play, but there are people that can't for the life of them figure it out
16:00<Brianetta> updated; now contains trimmed files, diffs, etc
16:01<Brianetta>That's the one that keeps making additional calls on the client
16:02<Brianetta>src/tree_cmd.cpp:675 on the server
16:02*Yorick pets brianetta
16:02*Yorick gives brianetta a cookie
16:02<Brianetta>After that they diverge rapidly
16:03<Yorick>could you use the tree growth patch to disable tree growth?
16:03<Brianetta>That happened after the vehicle.cpp call
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>Yorick: that is hardly the cause
16:03<Brianetta>so by then, state is different
16:03<Brianetta>Every random number is different
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: the cause of the desync is before the first different random call
16:04<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: True, but also true that every single random call after that is essentially blameless
16:04<Brianetta>The damage is already done
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16:04<Yorick> CheckVehicleBreakdown
16:04-!-orudge changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.2 | Website: * (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No unauthorised bots | We Love YAPP
16:04<Brianetta>The zip file has the save
16:04<Brianetta>and the logs there
16:05<Brianetta>It's totally reproducable
16:05<Brianetta>Any dev who wants it can have it.
16:05<+glx>src/vehicle.cpp is related to breakdowns
16:05<Yorick>it is called from CheckVehicleBreakdown
16:07-!-helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:07<Brianetta>I suspect the trams
16:07<Yorick>I suspect r993*
16:07<Brianetta>It really started to happen when I added grvts.grf to the set
16:07<Yorick>you added them afterwards?
16:07<Brianetta>You misunderstand. Previous games weren't affected.
16:08<guru3>what's wrong with just calling them yapp signals
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>guru3: nobody suggested that :p
16:08<Brianetta>guru3: People will wonder what they have to do with chihuahuas
16:08<guru3>i'm sure there are other names in openttd that have nothing to do with what it actually does
16:08<Brianetta>"yet another PBS patch" will take some explaining
16:08<guru3>you drop the yet another pbs patch bit
16:08<guru3>and just call it yapp
16:09<guru3>Yapp Signals
16:09<guru3>no acronymn
16:09<Brianetta>That's worse than just leaving it as advance signals, frankly
16:09<frosch123>"path based signalling signals" isn't really better :p
16:09<Brianetta>advanced signals, even
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>guru3: that is the worst thing that can happen :p
16:09<guru3>"block and route" doesn't really explain it either
16:09<Prof_Frink>"Magic signals"
16:09<@Belugas>[16:09] <Eddi|zuHause> guru3: that is the worst thing that can happen :p <--- wrong... It can be reverted :P
16:09<Brianetta>They make sense after the terminology is understood.
16:10<Brianetta>A signal block is explained in the "manual"
16:10<guru3>see i interpret the block as "blocking" off of the bat though
16:10<guru3>and route i think of ip routing :/
16:12<guru3>how about direction signals?
16:12<guru3>signals that tell the train what direction to go
16:12<frosch123>how about a option in openttd.cfg to define your own name
16:12<Fennec>Reservation Signals.
16:13<@Belugas>if naming shold be changed based on everyone's opinion, OpenTTD would be just one big moving naming machine
16:13<Fennec>Route Reservation Signals.
16:14<guru3>guy who wrote the patch names it then, Brianetta
16:14<frosch123>"R signals" is nice, then everyone can interpret it as "reservation", "route" or just the "R word"
16:14<fjb>Am I the only one not caring for how signals are called?
16:14<Yorick>fjb: I think so
16:14<@Belugas>nope, fjb, you're not.
16:15<@Belugas>I do not care AT all how it's called.
16:15<@Belugas>As long as it works
16:15-!-helb [~helb@] has joined #openttd
16:15<@Belugas>and yes, it is advanced compared to the other signaling system
16:15-!-helb [~helb@] has quit []
16:15-!-helb [~helb@] has joined #openttd
16:15<@Belugas>so, as Tron said one, it's Bike shed painting discussion
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16:16<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with the current "advanced signals" is that it conflicts with "advance signals"
16:16<+glx>Brianetta: it may be articulated RVs
16:17<+glx>I suspect roadveh_cmd.cpp:2018
16:17<guru3>i'd like something short and sweet
16:17<@Belugas>details that make one stumble on a carpet, Eddi|zuHause
16:18<+glx>hmm 2017 indeed
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: for the short time the discussion about advance signals went on, already way too many people got confused by it
16:19<@Belugas>people will ALWAYS be confused about something, not the first time, not the last time
16:19<Brianetta>Breakdowns and servicing were both off in that save
16:19-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
16:19<+glx>breakdown setting check is done after the random
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: yes. but sometimes you shouldn't deliberately encourage them
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16:21<@Belugas>I don't think it is deliberate
16:21<@Belugas>do you?
16:21<Fennec>RR signals.
16:21<Fennec>for Rail Road.
16:22<guru3>how's New Signals?
16:22<guru3>could we just call them that?
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: i think michi_cc chose the name without knowing about the term "advance signals"
16:22<@peter1138>2017? That's a comment in my checkout :o
16:22<@Belugas>question : why now? why not whle the patch was been worked out ??
16:22<+glx>in 0.6
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: 0.6.2
16:22<hylje>also why does hg have some five thousand revisions more than svn?
16:22<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause, now, you may have a point
16:22<hylje>are there that many merges?
16:23<+glx>1885 in trunk
16:24<Yorick>Belugas: also then
16:26<@peter1138>Are you saying that CheckVehicleBreakdown() is unsafe?
16:27<Yorick>it is
16:28<+glx>no I say if (this->u.road.blocked_ctr == 0) CheckVehicleBreakdown(this); is the only line that can explain the difference
16:29<@peter1138>Either u.road.blocked_ctr is not right, or CheckVehicleBreakdown() isn't.
16:29<@peter1138>I don't see anything wrong with that line itself.
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>add a printf there and rerun the desync test ;)
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16:30<@peter1138>glx, in trunk, roadveh_cmd.cpp:779
16:31<+glx>right and OnNewDay checks for other than front
16:31<@peter1138>VehicleFromPos may not be safe to use like that.
16:31<@peter1138>As it is a cache that is not synchronized.
16:32<@peter1138>It's fine for seeing if a tile is occupied or if vehicles collide.
16:32<@peter1138>But then, that smells of old code :)
16:33<@peter1138>So, do what Eddi|zuHause said ;)
16:34<+glx>hmm OnNewDay() does nothing for non front indeed
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16:44<@peter1138>I think that's probably okay :(
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16:47<+glx>hmm I get a segfault with chat
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16:49<+glx>both for server and client
16:51<+glx>well not segfault but assert :)
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16:53<Tekky>aren't asserts normally only active in debug builds and not in release builds?
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16:53<+glx>they are
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause>you might want to use actual debug builds in order to debug anything :p
16:59<Tekky>I would have expected that asserts are only active in debug builds and that they are skipped in release builds, for performance reasons. Is this the case with OpenTTD?
16:59<@Belugas>it is
16:59<+glx>they are disable for stable releases
16:59<Tekky>and for nightly builds too?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>no, asserts are active in all development builds (i.e. nightlies and self compiled stuff), you have to specifically disable them
16:59<+glx>that would be silly
17:00<Tekky>does anyone have an idea how many percent slower the game runs with asserts enabled?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>go profiling :p
17:01<+glx>not too much I think
17:03<@Belugas>how important is it?
17:03<@Belugas>it is indeed sloawerr, but by a small factor
17:03<@Belugas>ho... let's give it a number: 10%
17:03<+glx>not as slow as an MSVC debug build anyway
17:04*Belugas nods :)
17:04<@Belugas>not THAT is slow!
17:04<@Belugas>-not + now
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17:07<+glx>ok happens only with 32bpp-anim
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17:33<Osai>is it a bug or feature that reserved tracks are always shown and not only in pbs blocks?
17:35<Osai>if this patch option is turned on the tracktiles in front of and behind trains are shown as reserved which is IMHO not really useful
17:36<@peter1138>It works correctly for me.
17:36<Fennec>it sounds to me like it's an "artifact"
17:37<Ailure>I noticed it the same thing, but obviously only appears when I have "Show reserved tracks" on
17:37<Fennec>the way things work, and you could argue that it should be different maybe, but it's hard to say, and might be trickier, and you might lose some information some people sometimes want for something, and...
17:38<@Rubidium>Osai: that's intended, otherwise almost every PBS signal change will end up in crashing trains
17:38<Fennec>well, the reservations are intended. The display of the reservations sounds optional.
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17:38<Osai>yes, I am talking about the display
17:39<Fennec>I don't know how trivial it is to say "only show these in PBS blocks"
17:39<Fennec>or how big the downside is for users
17:40<Fennec>but the upside potential of such a change is limited.
17:40<@peter1138>Turn off the display and don't worry about it.
17:40<planetmaker>hm... is it possible to change the patch setting raw_industry_construction in MP games?
17:41<Osai>peter1138: yeah, I'll do it anyway
17:44<@Rubidium>planetmaker: have you tried it?
17:44<planetmaker>well. yes. With no effect :)
17:45<@Rubidium>should work
17:47<Osai>if you guys mind it:
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17:48<fmauNeko>mac user spotted :)
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17:53<Tim>LOL... I just recognized that Openttdcoop and Openttd use the same irc-server, and that i do NOT need to connect to two different ones (which are the same ones...), like i always did until now...
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17:54<Tefad>nice one.
17:55<planetmaker>nvm Rubidium. Wrong rcon pw :D
17:55<planetmaker>thx anyway
17:56<Tim>And that only because i ceonnected to my "OpenTTD-Server", and instead of /join #openttd i wrote /join #openttdcoop and it worked... (i was too lazy to write that /join into autoperform...)
17:57<Tim>Now i even know why it always changed my nick to Tim_ :D
18:07<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14080 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r14052): assert triggered when drawing chat window with 32bpp-anim blitter (backup buffer was too small)
18:08<Tim>My Nick is already used, so i can't register it. However, it was last logged on with in 2004, and only once it seems. So it gives me the message: If you believe this nickname to be unused, contact network support. Anyone knows who is the network supporter, or has an email?
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18:10<@orudge> is the network
18:10<@orudge>you could have a look on their site
18:10<Tefad>wait this is oftc?
18:11*orudge looks at Tefad like that
18:11*Prof_Frink looks at Tefad
18:11*Prof_Frink looks at orudge like /that/
18:11<@orudge>that's another pint you owe me, I believe.
18:22<Tekky>Osai: could it be that you have the patch setting pf.reserve_paths set to true? Please type "patch pf.reserve_paths" in the console. Then it should say wether it is set to true or false.
18:27<Tekky>Osai: Someone else once had a similar problem caused by this patch setting being set to true. The patch setting used to be configurable in the GUI in an early version of YAPP, I believe it was called "always reserve paths" in GUI.
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18:30<Osai>Tekky: ps.reserve_paths is 'off'
18:30<Tekky>Osai: ok, then that wasn't the problem.....
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18:32<Tekky>this is irc://
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18:33<Tekky>oh, sorry, I just responded to something Tefad said 20 minutes ago, I didn't realize that I had scrolled back and his message was 20 minutes old.
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18:35<Tekky>Osai: I can't view .mov files, could you also post a savegame?
18:35<Osai>I could convert the movie
18:35<Osai>its h264 codec
18:35<Osai>what 'can' you view?
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>i had no problem viewing the movie
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>but i have not seen this behaviour myself
18:37<Tekky>Osai: I only have Xvid and DivX installed, besided the standard WinXP stuff.
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>then get a newer codec
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>like ffdshow
18:38<Tekky>but a savegame might be more useful, I have version 7.1 of the ottdcoop patchpack installed.
18:38<Tekky>sorry, not patchpack, I meant newgrf pack.
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm... there's a moon outside my window
18:40<Prof_Frink>We like the moon
18:40<Prof_Frink>But not as much as a spoon
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause>the moon meat mine on the moon!
18:41<Prof_Frink>The moon is made of meat, my friend. The moon is made of meat.
18:41<+glx>there's a moon here too (and some stars)
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>we had this discussion before, i fear
18:41<Prof_Frink>Summon the big gnome!
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18:42<Tekky>ok, I'm installing ffdshow now.....
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>there's a new react needed, i think ;)
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18:51<Tekky>I still can't play Osai's .mov movie, despite ffdshow being installed....
18:52<Tekky>do I need to install Apple Quicktime too?
18:58<+glx>can't vlc open it?
18:58*glx tries
18:58<@Rubidium>my mplayer does
18:58<+glx>hmm I have quicktime installed
18:58<Prof_Frink>If it doesn't play with vlc and doesn't play with mplayer, it's corrupt.
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>it plays with kaffeine...
19:00<Prof_Frink>or "xine" as it's also known
19:00<+glx>yes no problems with vlc
19:01<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14081 /trunk/os/win32/installer/ (4 files): -Fix (r14075): WoW64 spoiled the 64 bits Windows detection and the installer for the 64 bits binary installed in the wrong directory. Thanks to michi_cc and glx for testing.
19:01<fmauNeko>world of warcraft 64 ?
19:01<@orudge>Windows on Win32
19:01<@orudge>Windows on Windows64
19:01<@orudge>or something like that
19:02<@orudge>WoW32 was Windows on Win32 I think
19:02<@orudge>WoW64 is probably Win32 on Win64 I guess
19:02<fmauNeko>yeah :)
19:02<@Rubidium>the fun you must have with WoWoW ;)
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19:02<Prof_Frink>just wait for zomg128
19:02<@orudge>sadly, WoWoW wasn't included in 64-bit Windows
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>wo, wo, wo?
19:08<Prof_Frink>woo woo!
19:08<Chrill>woo hoo?
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19:59<Osai>@calc 5739 / 18
19:59<@DorpsGek>Osai: 318.833333333
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20:11<dragonhorseboy>been trying find it for a while but with no clue .. anyone maybe know the name of a particular locomotive (I think french, spanish, or close to either?) .. it was like electrified center cab on long B-B chassis ... light blue paintjob too .. had sloped hoods and sides (a bit like the GG1 but much lower height)
20:11<dragonhorseboy>I know some kind of AC model of this was released for marklin tracks quite some time ago
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20:31<Eddi|zuHause>that description is way too general to find any sensible matches...
20:32<dragonhorseboy>hrm..was afraid of that..thanks anyhow eddi
20:32<dragonhorseboy>kinda like centercab's myself..not as large numbered but still
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20:33<dragonhorseboy>guess maybe I'll just try find any copies of the marklin catalogue and see if its there first or not
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20:37<dragonhorseboy>eddi I do have an easier question for you tho...
20:39<dragonhorseboy>you think its plausible (even if only in a kitbashed/scratchbuilt model alone) to have a centercab locomotive that would house diesel motor in one hood and the electrionics in other hood (with fuel+air located between trucks) as a vestibule locomotive for short trains in an electrified&non mixed network?
20:40<dragonhorseboy>(like say not enough reason to electrify all of it but can't run diesel all the way otherwise)
20:40<dragonhorseboy>if you dunno no problem heh
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>i have heard of a big lot of obscurities, but never ever have heard of a line being operated with a combined diesel/electric engine...
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>i have seen diesel driven construction vehicles with a pantograph, but they don't seem to use that for driving, only for testing the catenary
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21:20<dragonhorseboy>sorry just a bit tired .. eddi .. yeah I guess real life might never have something like it but who is going say a model layout couldn't? (these old AW NUTS magazine ideas are crazy if you ask me)
21:23<dragonhorseboy>think I'm better going off to bed - bye till next time (maybe with more normal questions heh)
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 16 00:00:56 2008