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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-23

---Logopened Sat Aug 23 00:00:21 2008
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02:59<Celestar>morning
03:06-!-Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@user-514faa37.l2.c4.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #openttd
03:06*Celestar is frustrated
03:07*hylje gives Celestar an immovable object
03:09<Celestar>?
03:09<Celestar>struct foo { int i; foo(int x) : i(x) {} }; struct bar { foo stuff[42]; bar() {} }; <= Impossible :/
03:13*Prof_Frink gives Celestar an unstoppable fork
03:14<Celestar>and working with cargopacket.h and station_base.h at the same time is nasty
03:14-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host196-236-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
03:15<Wolf01>hello
03:15<Celestar>hey
03:16<@peter1138>Heheh, 25 MHz 486...
03:17*Prof_Frink installs gentoo
03:18<Tefad>er what?
03:21<Celestar>geordi -c struct foo { int i; foo(int x) : i(x) {} }; struct bar { foo stuff[42]; bar() : stuff(23) {} }; <= impossible too :/
03:22<Wolf01>ehy, the box says so, maybe they forgot a 0 :D
03:25<Wolf01>somebody managed to run XP on a 8MHz processor
03:25<Wolf01>http://winhistory.de/more/386/xpmini_eng.htm
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03:29<@peter1138>Wolf01, you're forgetting about all the extra features introduced, and that limits removed.
03:30<@peter1138>Some routines are way more optimised now, as, while they worked fine with a limit of 80 trains, they're not so good with 800.
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04:14<Roujin>cheers
04:20<Wolf01>hi
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04:35<Celestar>back
04:35<Celestar>ish
04:38<Ammler>the windows binary from truelight has still HG rev name... :-/
04:38<Celestar>windows-cargodest-binary?
04:38<Ammler>yes.
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04:39<Ammler>bundle name looks like svn rev name :-)
04:39<Celestar>awesome
04:39<Celestar>I think I'll make a forum post later today
04:39<Ammler>http://mz.openttdcoop.org/bundles/OTTD-linux-i686-cargodest-r14127M.tar.bz2
04:39<Ammler>oh
04:40<Ammler>http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/cargodest/openttd-cargodest-r14127-win32.zip
04:40<Celestar>heh
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04:40<Ammler>if you see that, you could assume, it has a svn rev name :-)
04:42<Ammler>how do I get rid of the
04:42<Ammler>"anywhere" cargo?
04:44<@peter1138>And what, precisely, is wrong with having the hg rev name?
04:45<Ammler>peter1138: playing on the server...
04:45<Ammler>nothing is wrong, just not the same :-)
04:46<@peter1138>It's better.
04:46<Celestar>Ammler: in a savegame? remove the station.
04:46<Celestar>Ammler: or remove the station the cargo is going to (switch to Destination View)
04:46<@peter1138>It's not just any random modified version of r14127, it's *exactly* this hg revision...
04:46<Ammler>Celestar: yep
04:47<@peter1138>Anywhere cargo should just be moved... anywhere.
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04:51<@peter1138>Damn, we need that old smallmap zoom patch :o
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04:52<Celestar>peter1138: "via anywhere", not "to anywhere"
04:52<Celestar>peter1138: yes, we do. urgently (=
04:55<@peter1138>Oh, so what's the fix for via anywhere?
04:56<@peter1138>http://svn.bucks.net/~petern/route1.png
04:56<@peter1138>:D
04:56-!-[1]Roujin [~Roujin@p54970E8C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
04:56<Celestar>peter1138: via anywhere happened when a station got deleted but the index go reused later. The old cargo targets were not updated
04:57<@Rubidium>peter1138: you should use a wider screen ;)
04:58<@peter1138>Celestar, so it's an already-fixed bug?
04:58<Celestar>peter1138: yes it is. but it doesn't 'repair' old savegames from the branch (I don't see that needed)
04:58<@peter1138>Rubidium, actually I'm looking at getting a 28" 1920x1200 display...
04:58<@peter1138>Celestar, that's fine :)
04:58<Celestar>peter1138: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Talk:Passenger_and_cargo_destinations <= this might be interesting
04:59<Celestar>peter1138: I'm just working on accelerating LoadUnloadStation
04:59<Celestar>by moving the cargo_list into the goodsentry
04:59<Celestar>so it's reused permanently
05:00<@peter1138>Feh, debug level 3 is perfectly playable for me ;)
05:00<@Rubidium>peter1138: and that binary in valgrind?
05:00<Celestar>peter1138: not if you have a a station with 100.000+ units of cargo waiting
05:00<@peter1138>Rubidium, probably not :)
05:00<Celestar>peter1138: that's the only problem because the cargolist loop take AGES
05:01<Celestar>peter1138: however, there's not urgent need to fix it
05:01<@peter1138>My busiest has only 10,000
05:02<@peter1138>Oh, no, 14,000.
05:02<Celestar>peter1138: then you will have no performance issues imho
05:02<@peter1138>10,000 passengers.
05:02<Prof_Frink>We're gonna need a bigger boat.
05:02<@peter1138>I could do with expanding that station, but I don't think there's room.
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05:03<Celestar>I _don't_ understand CargoList::Truncate :S
05:04<@Rubidium>don't know what changed, but it was dead simple
05:04<@peter1138>What I don't understand is why I have a purely transfer station with mail waiting...
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05:06<@peter1138>Bloody TTRS3!
05:06<@peter1138>Reloaded the game and now all the roads and bridges are different! :o
05:07<Celestar>yeah
05:07<Celestar>it happens :S
05:08*peter1138 and belugas need to finish our work...
05:10<TiberiusTeng>ganbare!! :o
05:10<Celestar>what work peter1138 ?
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05:13<Celestar>heh running make from vim is really cool
05:13<Celestar>you can then jump between all the errors (=
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05:14<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> Reloaded the game and now all the roads and bridges are different! :o <- could get fixed with road types :)
05:17<Celestar>peter1138: I'll write a dev-forum post about cargodest today if you don't mind
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>you should only do that when you have binaries for all platforms :)
05:21<@Rubidium>that'd have to wait a while then
05:21<@Rubidium>ofcourse depending on what you call "all platforms"
05:23<Celestar>win32 and MacOS
05:23<@Rubidium>then the new compile farm isn't ready
05:23*peter1138 ponders switching some freight to road service.
05:23<Celestar>everyone else is either not too important or not incapable for building themselves :P
05:28<@peter1138>Hmm, I could build a new line along the NW that skips the major cities...
05:29<@peter1138>Rating:
05:29<@peter1138>Oil: Appalling (0%)
05:29<@peter1138>How the hell does that happen :o
05:30<Celestar>http://www.fvfischer.de/trunk.diff <= Rubidium that ok?
05:30<@Rubidium>okay for what?
05:30<Celestar>for committing (=
05:30<Celestar>it's a leftover of the old autoreplace apparently
05:30<@Rubidium>Celestar: yes, fine by me
05:31<@Rubidium>especially cause I was doing that too ;)
05:32<CIA-5>OpenTTD: celestar * r14137 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h): -Codechange: Remove a now unused member of CargoPacket
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05:38<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> Oil: Appalling (0%) <- when an accident happens :)
05:38<@peter1138>Nope.
05:39<@peter1138>Possibly it's the 864k litres production filling up the station...
05:39<@peter1138>I 'only' had 6 trains then.
05:39<Osai>peter1138: is it possible to combine functions of PBS and priority signals within a track construction?
05:39<@peter1138>Now I have too many :o
05:41<@peter1138>I don't know, I never build priority constructions.
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05:42<Osai>okay
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05:45<Celestar>what is a priority signal
05:45<Celestar>peter1138: http://www.fvfischer.de/cl.diff <= this is about how I imagine it. comments?
05:46<Celestar>peter1138: note: it doesn't work yet(=
05:48<@peter1138>All looks complicated :p
05:48<@peter1138>StationID index -> StationID station
05:49<Celestar>peter1138: it's just an _idea_ for the time being
05:50<Ammler>[11:45] <Celestar> what is a priority signal <-- presignals
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05:52<Celestar>Ammler: er .. right
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>basically a presignal and a reverse exit signal, so the presignal is green when the other entrance is free
05:53<Celestar>peter1138: so should I post on the forum or not?
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>it should be possible to simulate that with advance signals. when you place the advance signal further away, the line gets higher "priority"
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>because the train reserves sooner
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>this, of course, clashes with the 2 tile signal strategy :)
05:55<@peter1138>:)
05:55<@peter1138>Some guy on Brianetta's server was placing signals on every tile :o
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05:55<Eddi|zuHause>that was before you could bridge over them, right? ;)
05:55<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you can solve that with multiple lines
05:56<Ammler>so 2->4->2
05:56<@peter1138>No, that was 3 days ago.
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05:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, it happens again and again ;)
05:56<@peter1138>Simutrans didn't allow that ;)
05:57<@peter1138>It had minimum signal block size, although it was only something like 2 tiles.
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05:57<Eddi|zuHause>i always assumed that was due to the fucked up interface :)
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>signals were placed on tile borders, and when you clicked on an adjacent tile, it changed the direction of the signal, not build a new one
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05:58<Ammler>default or ottd is 4?
05:59<Ammler>of*
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>i thought 3... but i didn't use the default settings in years ;)
05:59<Ammler>that was at least, what I use on low train games... :-)
05:59<Celestar>ok guys I'm off for the rest of the day (=
05:59<Celestar>accidently both $GF and $ME have a day off (=
06:00<Celestar>I'll just let slip cargodest in the forum so people have something to stare at :P
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06:01<planetmaker>hello
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06:03<Celestar>bye :D
06:03<planetmaker>enjoy, Celestar
06:05<Celestar>thanks
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06:05<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i hoped for a sync with trunk...
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>gnah... conditional orders that jump back to the current order should make the train not start, instead of start, and get lost trying to get to the same station again
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06:15<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: cond orders have also bug in trunk...
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. but my setup is simpler than yours...
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06:17<Eddi|zuHause>basically it's
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>1: go to A
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>2: if load % < 50 jump to 1
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>3: go to B
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>so what i'd like it to do is stay at A until it has loaded 50%
06:20<Wolf01>I usually use a go to depot order before 1, so the train go to the depot an then again to the station
06:20<@Rubidium>new orders are only evaluated when the station/waypoint is left
06:20<@Rubidium>not when they are still at the station
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06:20<@Rubidium>ergo... leaving the station is the correct behaviour
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's why it is a feature request, not a bug ;)
06:21<@Rubidium>then what's Ammler's bug?
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>ammlers bug, as far as i understand it, is that the train does not turn around properly with conditional orders
06:24<@Rubidium>AFAIK I fixed that a while ago
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06:24<fjb>Hello
06:25<FR^2>hi fjb
06:26<Ammler>Rubidium: Progman posted a new one...
06:26<Ammler>(new fs post)
06:27<[1]Roujin>Eddi|zuHause: yes, sync with trunk would be nice :) the yapp bug I mentioned yesterday was fixed by michi_cc
06:27<Progman>Ammler: it is fixed btw. ;)
06:28<Ammler>oh, also that fast :-)
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, and i wanted to test if that would have solved my problems as well
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>i can't pinpoint the cause, and i can't reproduce it in a clean build
06:29<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: try with your middle stop patch
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>i did...
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>i can't reproduce that either
06:29<Ammler>reproduce what?
06:30<Ammler>Progman: which rev?
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>reproduce the stale reservations
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>i tried before and after michi_cc's fixes of yesterday
06:33<Progman>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2245
06:33<@peter1138>BAH!
06:33<@peter1138>Stupid petrol stations...
06:33<Ammler>6/8 :P
06:33<fjb>Are they running from you?
06:34<@peter1138>Ammler, nah... they *moved* :o
06:34<@peter1138>fjb, yeah :(
06:34<fjb>It always happens to me too.
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07:07<@peter1138>Bah, more congestion :o
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07:13<fjb>Use trams.
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07:19<@peter1138>No :)
07:20<Forked>use the force!
07:21<fjb>Use the source!
07:22<@peter1138>Woo, HST!
07:23<fjb>DBset gets a bit boring after 2010... :-(
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07:26<fjb>Is there an overview somewhere what scale which train set uses?
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07:33<Progman>fjb: since we are in 2008? ;)
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07:35<fjb>Not really a problem. Locomotives tend to get used for about 50 years in Germany. But there are very few of the actually really used engines in the set.
07:35<fjb>And all are extrem powerfull and heavy.
07:37<@peter1138>Bah, express lines mess up the routing map ;(
07:37<@peter1138>(The visual representation of it)
07:40<fjb>Take your time, don't build an express line.
07:41<@peter1138>Ouch, 16 trains stopping and 25 trains passing through a three platform station.
07:41<@peter1138>Sorry, I meant express orders, not line.
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07:41<@peter1138>Most of my trains stop at every station along the route.
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07:43<@peter1138>Gah, bloody petrol stations.
07:43<fjb>Three platforms is really a bit small.
07:44<fjb>I "solved" the petrol station problem with a ring line of truck stops through the town. One of them would always accept petrol.
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08:06<Wolf01>uh, I have an hotel to remove (TTRSv3), but I can't, the local authority doesn't allow me to do it... my rating is outstanding
08:10<FauxFaux>Maybe they like their hotel.
08:11<Wolf01>oh finally, the rating wasn't enough outstanding :D
08:17<fjb>Removing hotels is evel.
08:18<Wolf01>not when you have to build an airport
08:20<fjb>You mean the noise of the airport would scare away the hotel guests anyway?
08:25<Wolf01>they were already scared, there was already an airport adjacent to the hotel, but they love to see aircrafts taking of and landing
08:28<fjb>So you are denying them their fun now.
08:29<Wolf01>they moved to the hotel on the other side of the road
08:30<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14138 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Fix (r12863): dark blue wasn't considered as similiar to blue
08:31<@peter1138>..
08:31<@peter1138>Because it's not :D
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08:33<SmatZ>peter1138: it was before r12863 ... but I agree with you :)
08:33<SmatZ>though I think pink and grey are similiar, too
08:34-!-mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:35<SmatZ>"blue" is similiar to "dark blue", but "dark blue" isn't similiar to "blue" :)
08:35<SmatZ>*wasn't
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08:42<fjb>And always remember to think first and build then, nocht the other way round...
08:44<@peter1138>"a hotel"
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>not if you don't speak the "h" ;)
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>(did i mention that english is totally weird?)
08:48<fjb>:)
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08:49<fjb>Munich railway station is located in Holzmünster...
08:50-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@p5B0D88A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
08:50<Celestar>meh
08:51<Celestar>does anyone know anything about ghostscript? I get a Bus Error everytime I run it
08:51<fjb>Moin Celestar
08:51<fjb>Take the tram.
08:51<@peter1138>Well Bus Error is a system problem... or lack of memory.
08:52<fjb>Sounds like your version of ghostscript is broken.
08:52<Celestar>it's not a memory problem :P
08:52<fjb>Wrong alignment could also be the cause.
08:52<Celestar>unless "gs -version" takes 500MB of ram :P
08:52<Celestar>+swap
08:52<@peter1138>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_error
09:01<Celestar>yeah
09:01<Celestar>but that doesn't help a lot (=
09:01<@peter1138>My google-fu is failing :(
09:01<@peter1138>Looking for wall-mount LCD monitor and keyboard/mouse stand.
09:02<@peter1138>Hmm
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09:05<@peter1138>£305!? That's a bit much :o
09:06<FauxFaux>http://www.tvbracketsdirect.co.uk/
09:07<@peter1138>Not much in the way of keyboard support.
09:07<Celestar>hm
09:07<Celestar>the MD5sum is incorrect
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09:08<Eddi|zuHause>i have a gremlin in my internets...
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09:11<FauxFaux>Oh, keyboard and mouse, fail at reading.
09:14<@peter1138>Hmm, maybe I should just put up some simple shelving...
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09:32<fjb>Is there a way to find out if the town will accept the noise of the new airport before destroying the old airport?
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09:36<frosch123>save game, remove airport, try to build new airport or load savegame ?
09:38<[1]Roujin>look into the town window, it says how much noise the town accepts
09:38<[1]Roujin>look into the build airport window, it says how much noise every type of airport will produce at max
09:39<[1]Roujin>look into the town window again to see how much noise the current airport generates
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09:39<fjb>frosch123: Nice idea, as long as playing in single player mode. I will do that.
09:39<[1]Roujin>compare that number to the current airport's type's maximum noise
09:40<fjb>[1]Roujin: The the trouble begins when the airport is not in the middle of the town but a bit away from the town.
09:40<[1]Roujin>multiply that percentage with the maximum number of noise of the new airport type
09:40<[1]Roujin>assuming you'll build the new airport in the same place as the old airport was, you should be able to use that as an estimate..
09:41<fjb>Hm, ok, that might work.
09:41<fjb>Thank you.
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09:42<[1]Roujin>as an alternative, you could get the exact formula, find out which tile of the airport and which tile of the town is used for the computation and calculate it yourself :P
09:42<fjb>A join stations feature would come ij handy now so I don't have to destroy the bus stop an tram station when upgrading the airport.
09:43<fjb>The axect formula is a bit complicated while playing the game...
09:43<[1]Roujin>you mean, enabling building something adjacent to multiple existing stations.. and then to choose which one of those to add it to?
09:44<[1]Roujin>that would be nice
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>usually shift+click gives you an estimate, usually the error message of "local authorities refuse ..." has higher priority than "there is already an existing station"
09:45<[1]Roujin>you can do so much now in the game that you couldn't in the original.. build on slopes and so on. it's kinda awkward that it tells you "you can't do that!" here
09:45<fjb>Yes, something like that.
09:45<[1]Roujin>Eddi|zuHause, the problem is, he already has an existing airport
09:45<[1]Roujin>he can't get the estimate of "destroy old airport and then build new one" as that is in fact two actions
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>hm... indeed
09:47<fjb>OpenTTD with all the gret new features is my model railway substitution.
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09:53<yorick>fjb: it is more advanced than my model railway
09:53<yorick>does your model railway have a local authority or PBS?
09:54<yorick>or airplanes?
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09:55<fjb>Hm, no local authority, I'm not married.
09:55<Forked>heheh
09:56<yorick>and airplanes?
10:03<FR^2>What do airplanes have to do with marriage?
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10:11<fjb>Depends on what you did on that airplane...
10:13<FR^2>Certainly not marry!
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10:22<Chrill>Hai, quick question
10:23<Chrill>Is NARS, Newships and LV4 compatible with NewIndustries of any kind, and if so, which set of NewIndustries should one use?
10:23<yorick>better try...NARS and LV4 are
10:23<yorick>Newships I believe not
10:23<Chrill>better wait for the 2cc ships then, eh?
10:24<yorick>or only partially
10:27<Chrill>is Purno's 2cc set compatible with Pikka's basic?
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10:36<fjb>Newships is not really compatible with new industries. The early freighter in the set transports everything beside passenger and tourists. But after that ship phases out you are not able to transport some goods by ship anymore.
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11:00<fjb>I need away to forbid trains of a certain lenght to use certain platforms...
11:00-!-Reemo [Dr_Jekyll@p57B0DFD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:02<fjb>Is some kind of "or" relation possible with two waypoints?
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11:04<@peter1138>No, you'll have to use a station with via orders.
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11:15<fjb>Hm, yes, i guessed. But that is a not so nice workaround.
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11:18*peter1138 ponders
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11:53<Mortal>about map screenshots on the wiki: "Also note that these screenshots are HUGE, 16352x8192 pixels on a default sized map"
11:53<Mortal>what qualifies for a default sized map?
11:53<Mortal>512x512?
11:55<FR^2>*shrug* Something around that, I suppose.
11:55<hylje>256x256
11:55<FR^2>Mortal: URL?
11:55<Mortal>I exported a 2048x2048... http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Hotkeys
11:55<Mortal>131008x65504 pixels
11:55<Mortal>as PNG, 168 MB
11:56<FR^2>uh
11:56<Mortal>I don't have any programs that can open it :)
11:56<Mortal>that is... neither firefox or irfanview would
11:57<Mortal>opera won't either
11:57<FR^2>hehe
11:58<fjb>A town ate my wood. :(
11:59<fjb>There are 3 McDonals around that place where the wood was now, and a shopping center.
12:02<@peter1138>Standard size is 256x256 indeed.
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12:04<Mortal>when I'm already in a game, can I see the seed that was fed to the map generator on startup?
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12:07<[1]Roujin>yes.
12:09<Mortal>okay! where can I see the seed?
12:09<Mortal>(sorry about the metaquestion)
12:09<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14139 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix (r12044): GetSlopeZ() gets a virtual coordinate, not a tile.
12:09<[1]Roujin>type getseed in console
12:09<Mortal>thanks
12:10-!-dlunch [~dlunch@61.108.29.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:10<[1]Roujin>i'm off for today, see you
12:11<Mortal>bye roujin
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12:13<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14140 /trunk/src/waypoint.h: -Fix (r14135): Enum in saveload-table.
12:14<Eddi|zuHause><fjb> I need away to forbid trains of a certain lenght to use certain platforms... <- yapf has "too short platform" and "too long platform" penalties
12:15<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: I should have written "pass through a certain platform". The trains don't stop at the platform.
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>yapf has also a station passthrough penalty
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>although that would mean they use the shortest platform to pass through
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>which might cause lockups
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>which i assume is the problem you have ;)
12:16<fjb>The platforms all have the same lenght.
12:16<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14141 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix (r14135): Savegame conversion could assign a recently removed waypoint (grey sign) to a wrong owner.
12:17<fjb>Yes, the problem are lockups.
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>use a passthrough track without platform...
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>trains will prefer those
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>or make the non-passthrough platforms longer
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Cottbus%20Transport,%2029.%20Mai%201930.png <- like this (when it's done uploading)
12:22<fjb>It's all a bit difficult there, onle 4 platforms and no room to add another one. My solution is to declare the two platforms with the longest way to the next switch one way in each direction an to add waypoints in front of that two platforms.
12:26<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14142 /trunk/src/waypoint.cpp: -Codechange: Disallow taking over greyed waypoints of other companies.
12:34<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14143 /trunk/src/ (waypoint.cpp waypoint_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Recenter viewport of waypoint window when relocating the waypoint.
12:45<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Your switchyard desingn looks a bit strange.
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13:04<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it's not ideal ;)
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>the northern entrance was a little space restricted, due to the bridge
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>and the southern one looks weird because it's diagonal
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13:35<fjb>I have seen the limited space at your northern entrace. The southern entrance looks strange.
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14:06<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14144 /trunk/src/table/cargo_const.h: -Fix (r8826): Incorrect cargo weights
14:11<Swallow>Situation: For a patch (conditional order) I need to add a variable (byte) to the order struct..
14:12<Swallow>Question: Is it better to add a new variable, or should I reuse the existing refit_subtype?
14:13<Noldo>what exactly are you doing?
14:13<hylje>extending the conditional orders available right now in trunk, right?
14:13<Swallow>yes
14:14<@peter1138>For the moment, add another byte for clarity.
14:15<Swallow>thanks, will do that
14:16<Swallow>gotta go now, though, thanks and bye
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14:28<SmatZ_>huh
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14:28<SmatZ_>I turned on the computer
14:28<SmatZ_>nothing happened
14:28<SmatZ_>except smell
14:28<Tefad>O_o
14:28<SmatZ_>bad smell :-x
14:29<Tefad>don't tell me you let out the magic smoke
14:29<SmatZ_>hehe
14:29<SmatZ_>PSU did
14:29<Tefad>i had a monitor do that once
14:29<SmatZ_>:-D
14:29<Tefad>luckily that thing was under extended warranty
14:29<SmatZ_>:)
14:29<Tefad>just called them up and a week later i had a better monitor as replacement
14:30<Tefad>CRTs generally last me for 3 years
14:30<@peter1138>Only 3?
14:30<Tefad>i've not bought one for six.
14:30<@peter1138>:o
14:30<Tefad>warranty kicked in at 3yrs on the last one
14:30*peter1138 is using a 10 year old CRT.
14:30<Tefad>i'm sure this free monitor i have is 10 years or more
14:31<SmatZ_>>:-)
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14:31<@peter1138>Still going strong. Except for the melted patch my Dad left on it when I lent it to him.
14:31<Tefad>oops
14:31<SmatZ_>:-)
14:31<@peter1138>And the flap's hinges are busted - brittle plastic.
14:31<Tefad>my newer monitor has a nick on the screen
14:31<Tefad>off center though
14:32<@peter1138>And the buttons don't work propertly... but other than that, it's great.
14:32<Tefad>heh buttons
14:32<SmatZ_>hmm I have 2 AT PSUs and 3 broken ATX, but none working ATX :-/
14:32<Tefad>the old one i'm using has problems
14:32<@peter1138>Well, partly because the buttons are on the flap.
14:32<@peter1138>SmatZ_, here's a tip. Throw away dead PSUs.
14:33<Tefad>luckily it has an option to correct its off color
14:33<Tefad>but i have do that like once a month
14:33<SmatZ_>peter1138: good idea :) I wanted to separande condenstators and coils from them... but they may be broken anyway :-x
14:34<Tefad>i think i set one monitor to match the other's blue tint
14:34<Tefad>then correct the blue tint via video card confic
14:34<@peter1138>Urgh.
14:35<Tefad>config. it tints all displays instead of independently : \
14:35<Tefad>fun times : D
14:35<@peter1138>I prefer not to fiddle with the video card colour config as it's usually done on the digital side.
14:35<Tefad>doesn't bother me. i'm not a videophile
14:35<Tefad>i don't like dithering much though
14:36<Tefad>or color banding
14:36<Tefad>and video games like to take advantage of full range color so i end up cranking gamma up to 2 or something ridiculous
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14:48<SmatZ_>hmm I took one 235W PSU from another computer... I wonder if it will survive for few days in that computer :-x
14:49<SmatZ_>it doesn't have right connectors...
14:49<SmatZ_>so fail
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>i have trouble with my hard drive...
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15:05<SmatZ_>Eddi|zuHause: backup, backup, backup :)
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15:14<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14145 /trunk/src/waypoint.cpp: -Fix (r14135, r14141): When savegame conversion cannot determine a owner of a greyed waypoint, ensure that the owner is assigned when the waypoint is rebuild.
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15:25<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ_: the problem is with the newest and biggest hard drive... it is as big as all other harddrives together...
15:29<SmatZ_>Eddi|zuHause: my data usually fit at one DVD ... others are installed programs, movies, music, photos (only incremental backup is needed)
15:30<@peter1138>Gah, one double track entrance to a four platform station for 25 trains :o
15:30<SmatZ_>but if you need to backup whole big HDD, that's bad :-/
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15:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's mostly TV recordings on that HD
15:33-!-mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>and for most movies i have a "backup" :p
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16:17<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14146 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: allow palette override in both ways and remove some unneeded '(x == 0) ? 0 : 1' constructs.
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>back in my pascal days i hit a corner case where Ord(True) was 10
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16:46<fjb>Hm, goto nearest depot only looks in front of the train? How can I reverse a train with an order? A waypoint or a station hidden as a waypoint it nor possible there. Any ideas?
16:48<fjb>Hm, stating every possible depot in a service at order? Will it take the first depot or the nearest of them?
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16:54<SmatZ_>fjb: how do you mean?
16:54<SmatZ_>if you set 1: goto depot 1 ; 2: goto depot 2, then it will go to depot 1, then to depot 2
16:55<fjb>Yes, I was meaning that. So it will always go to depot one, never to depot two.
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>ask from this direction: what possible reason could it have to not go to depot 1?
16:58<fjb>Route blocked by another train or depot not reachable from that platform.
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16:58<SmatZ_>fjb: train will go through depot (for a penalty) if you use YAPF
16:59<SmatZ_>so you can force trains to go to a depot by a "forced visit"
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17:00<fjb>I'm using YAPP. I will not force it to visit the depot. I want the train to take one of three depots, the one that it can reach most easily, but no other depot than one of those three.
17:01<SmatZ_>YAPF is a pathfinder, you are most likely using it
17:01<fjb>It should only go to the depot when it needs to.
17:01<fjb>Yes, YAPF is the pathfinder.
17:01<SmatZ_>I am afraid I can't help you further than "use a Service at nearest depot" order
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17:05<fjb>Servive at nearest depot shows goint to depot at (name of that station the train is at), but all the depots are at the back of the train, not in front of it. So instead of turning around it goes around half of the map.
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17:08<SmatZ_>fjb: I am afraid changing this behaviour to take into accounts depots reachable after reversing would make other players unhappy
17:11<fjb>That behavior would not alwys be usefull. That is why a reverse order came to my mind.
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>YAPF was decided to not be reverse-aware because it causes big problems, as it needs to consider train length when reversing
17:12<fjb>YAPF does not have to do it on it's own. Just an oder that tells the train to reverse would be enough.
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>from the position of the front vehicle, it would need to ignore all switches for the first (train length) tiles
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>an explicit "reverse" order i see only useful in stations
17:13<fjb>I don't want it to be automatic, just an order would make me happy.
17:14<fjb>Yes, in stations.
17:16<Sacro>@seen Celestar
17:16<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 8 hours, 8 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <Celestar> the MD5sum is incorrect
17:16<Sacro>gah
17:16<Sacro>"PLEASE don't post any information on that wiki OR it's discussion page here. Please report all problems / ideas to the wiki."
17:16<Sacro>don't post on that wiki
17:16<Sacro>report all problems/ideas to the wiki
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17:31<fjb>Would it be complicated to implement a reverse order?
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17:33<frosch123>it does not make a lot of sense for depot and station orders, as the train decides itself whether it wants to reverse or not
17:34<mortal>fjb, can't you use checkpoints to ensure a train goes in the right direction?
17:35<mortal>I can't imagine a situation in which you'd want a train to reverse regardless of current orientation
17:35<frosch123>just checked, also the "go to nearest depot order" supports reversing
17:35<frosch123>so I do not get your point
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17:36<fjb>I know where the train came from, so I know its direction.
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17:37<frosch123>but to make a "reverse order" to have an effect you would need a "do not reverse" order for the following order
17:37<frosch123>(though there might be a reverse-penalty)
17:37<fjb>The train does not reverse with the nearest depot order. It shows the name of the depot behind it. But instead of reversing it starts right ehead and goes to the end of the line.
17:37<frosch123>then that is broken
17:38<frosch123>but the code is intended to support reversing
17:39<frosch123>order_cmd.cpp::UpdateOrderDest()
17:39<fjb>It simply doesn't,. Maybe it is the same kind of problem with conditional oders where the train starts always in the direction it is looking at and not the direction that wold be useful depending on the condition.
17:39<frosch123>that was fixed around 3:00 this morning
17:40<Ammler>frosch123: last morning :-)
17:40<fjb>Oh, I'm paying the latest noai. That was synced to trunk 2 days ago.
17:40<Ammler>so the nightly should have it
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17:41<Ammler>fjb: which AIs do you use?
17:41<fjb>I will further test it.
17:41<fjb>I'm using AdmiralAI and ANPAI.
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17:41<Ammler>oh, Yexo only :-)
17:41<fjb>AdmiralAI is quite good.
17:41<Ammler>do you have any chance against?
17:42<fjb>Yes, Convoy ubuilds articulatetd vehicles but not drive through stations.
17:42<fjb>Yes, I'm outperforming it easily in hilly terrain.
17:43<fjb>WrightAI doesn't like hills at all and is usually unable to place an airport.
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>terraforming is not easy :)
17:44<Ammler>specially, if you need to pay for it :-)
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>especially when you have to consider town rating
17:45<frosch123>terraforming does not affect town rating, only the tree-killing that is usually involved
17:45<Ammler>indeed, but those ais compete quite good with that, imo.
17:46<Ammler>hmm, aren't ais able to plant trees?
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>probably
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>this tree thing needs to be balanced somehow...
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17:47<fjb>I'm playing in hilly terrain with smooth slopes.
17:47<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you mean, no min.?
17:48<Ammler>as you can push raiting with trees?
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>i mean in several ways
17:49<Ammler>well, I would like, if there is no min raiting...
17:50<Ammler>at least not that high :-9
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17:55<Brianetta>Error: Autoreplace failed to refit. Replace engine 70 to 35 and refit to cargo 1
17:55<Brianetta>Server has exited
17:55<@peter1138>:o
17:55<rortom>had that error too :(
17:55<+glx>0.6.x
17:55<@peter1138>0.6.2?
17:55<rortom>pulled down the whole serverr for me ...
17:55<Brianetta>yes
17:55<@peter1138>Bjarni!
17:55<Brianetta>its' been desyncing, too
17:55<+glx>autoreplace desyncs are known in 0.6.x
17:56<Brianetta>I can't any longer consider 0.6.2 to be stable.
17:56<Ammler>will the new replace engine backported?
17:56<Brianetta>glx: sure, but less well known are wayopint desyncs
17:56<Brianetta>and what I canb only term "random desyncs"
17:56<Brianetta>and this wasn't a desync
17:56<Brianetta>this was my server exiting
17:56<FauxFaux>The desyncs in 0.6.2 on Toyland are just not even funny (fixed now, I know, shame about debian freeze).
17:57<+glx>FauxFaux: toyland desync is fixed in trunk only
17:57<Tefad>debian freeze what?
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>who is insane enough to play toyland?
17:57<FauxFaux>Given that there has't beren a release since 0.6.2 that's a given, glx. :p
17:57<Tefad>people looking for bugs?
17:58<FauxFaux>Tefad: 0.6.2 will be in the next debian stable release, which'll be the version debian people will see for the next about year and a ahalf. D:
17:58*FauxFaux has had far too much aclohol, sorry. :/
17:58<Tefad>i ignore debian
17:58<Tefad>for precisely that reason : x
17:58<Tefad>mmm gentoo
17:59<Tefad>the bleeding edge does cut you sometimes though.
17:59<FauxFaux>Debian stable isn't thne ber all and end all of debian, it's just a nice place to be.
18:00*FauxFaux does't run it (on servers), and runs Vista on desktops, nice balance. ¬_¬
18:02<Brianetta>I'm running my server without newgrfs.
18:02<@peter1138>Hmm... varactions :o
18:02<Brianetta>If I get no desyncs, I'll re-introduce them slowly.
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18:04<Brianetta>welshdragon: Did you find your music?
18:04<welshdragon>i think i did
18:04<welshdragon>ty
18:04<welshdragon>sigh
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18:07<frosch123>fjb: ok, it does not really reverse for "goto nearest depot" as the reversing penalty is set to NPF_INFINITE_PENALTY :)
18:07<frosch123>the same code is used for the manual depot orders
18:08<fjb>Oh, try to reverse if you can, but we don't let you...
18:08<frosch123>train_cmd.cpp::FindClosestTrainDepot
18:08<frosch123> bool found = YapfFindNearestRailDepotTwoWay(v, max_distance, NPF_INFINITE_PENALTY, &tfdd.tile, &tfdd.reverse); <- put there a number you like
18:09<frosch123>but not 0
18:09<Wolf01>'night
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18:10<fjb>Hm, so I have to explicitly starte one depot it has to go to if it needs servicing.
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18:14<fjb>Oh, it is also not working to tell the train which depot to go to, that only works when the train is facing the right direction anyway. :(
18:14<fjb>Now the train again crossed half the map searching the depot behind its back.
18:19<fjb>The train goes to the furthest away endpoint of that line to turn around there.
18:24<fjb>It also makes a difference if it is a nonstop order or not.
18:26<frosch123>it does not do that for me. the train will always prefer a depot in front of it and only reverse when there is no depot
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18:29<@Rubidium>Tefad: yeah, use Gentoo; their solution to fixing bugs is masking the package... like masking OpenTTD 0.5.2 (the 'current' version of Gentoo) because they are too lazy to apply a user's patch to get it to 0.6.2.
18:29<fjb>Any depot in front of it, even half the map away does it not make go to the depot behing it with the nearest depot order. With an explicit order to that depot behind it he train also doesn't turn around. It drives to the furthest away end point of the line, reverses there and then goes bak to that depot.
18:30<Tefad>is it just an ebuild problem?
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18:31<@peter1138>Raaa, varactions for railtypes :o
18:31<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14147 /trunk/src/train.h: -Codechange: Allow passing 'const Vehicle *' to GetNextUnit() and GetPrevUnit().
18:32<Tefad>i've always just built ottd in my homedir
18:32<Tefad>carried over from my slackware days : )
18:32<fjb>Hm, maybe reordering the rules helps.
18:32<frosch123>peter1138: I hope you are not planning to add 'landscape info of nearby tiles'
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18:33<@peter1138>No
18:33<fjb>Hm, why not? Other kind of rails in stations or at the coast. :-)
18:33<fjb>Or in towns.
18:34<frosch123>yeah, or newgrf controlled 'allow to build track here' :p
18:34<@peter1138>Haha
18:34*fjb gets a lot of evel ideas.
18:34<@peter1138>No :)
18:34<@peter1138>No callbacks!
18:35<@peter1138>frosch123, I'm just using a varaction for normal/desert/rainforest/snow...
18:35<@peter1138>Anything else that might be useful?
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18:39<@peter1138>Hmm, bare-ground tiles above the snow line look odd :o
18:39<@peter1138>The track still has little bits of snow on it, heh...
18:40<frosch123> <fjb> With an explicit order to that depot behind it he train also doesn't turn around. It drives to the furthest away end point of the line, reverses there and then goes bak to that depot. <- does not happen for me
18:40<@Rubidium>Tefad: no idea, take a look at http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=215776
18:40<fjb>I will further test it.
18:41<frosch123>as I sayd, the reversing penalty is NPF_INFINITE_PENALTY which is like 1000 straigt tiles
18:41<frosch123>*said
18:42<fjb>I'm creative with orders to make trains shunting.
18:44<fjb>I even build a turnout track for the first time. That is working now thanks to YAPP and the new orders.
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18:47<@peter1138>Gah, fucking idiots
18:50<fjb>What did they do?
18:51<@peter1138>Oh the silly 32bpp movement question...
18:53<davis->?
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19:01<fjb>Is the 32bpp blitter only changing the deepth of colors or is it changing anything else?
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
19:03<fjb>Thank you for that infomative answer.
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19:15<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14148 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14096) [FS#2239]: Orders were freed while they were still shared by other vehicles.
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19:31<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14149 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: When selling the front engine of a train consist with another engine at the second position, not all 'important' data was copied to the new head.
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21:40<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14150 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt vehicle_gui.cpp): -Add: Add the count of trains using the current waypoint in the vehicle list window's caption
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21:59<Ammler>train counter :-o
22:06<+glx>Ammler: no, same as other lists
22:06<Ammler>ah, ok :-)
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