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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-26

---Logopened Tue Aug 26 00:00:40 2008
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02:00<Smoky555>hi all
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02:01<Smoky555>whho can tell me,. does SVN mailing list is available now or not?
02:32<Forked>urgh.. tramstation in the middle of town with 800+ passengers.. the city has 2666 people
02:33<Forked>and 560 people heading towards it from the big trains tation
02:33<Forked>and I was really suppose to be at work 30 minutes ago :)
02:33<hylje>well of course people want to get to the centrum
02:33<Forked>sorta sucks without remote connect station :)
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02:40<planetmaker>g'morning
02:41<Forked>and I have got to run, afk
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03:31*Celestar scratches his head
03:32*Pikka scratches his chin
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03:42<Celestar>why is valgrind that damn slow :P
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04:03<TinoDidriksen>Because Valgrind is just that thorough.
04:04-!-nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
04:05<Celestar>it's awesome 8)
04:06<rortom>morning
04:06<rortom>valgrind is awesome
04:06<rortom>the only tool under windows that is nearly equally is very expensive ..
04:08-!-extspotter [~extspotte@host86-133-245-234.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
04:09<extspotter>hi
04:09<extspotter>can anyone help me with grfcodec
04:10<@peter1138>grfcodec -d -p2 file.grf
04:10<extspotter>?
04:10<extspotter>is that the grf I need
04:10<extspotter>to decode it
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04:11<Celestar>peter1138: I have started to rewrite the cargo_list cache for LoadUnloadStation
04:11<Forked>Is there a.. actually I'll check the wiki first
04:12-!-flowOver [~J@S01060016e65abad7.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd
04:12<Celestar>and I still don't understand CargoList::Truncate
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04:12<Forked>..is there a way to increase the penalty to tram/bus stations when it comes to generating passengers? Or can I set a "This station can only hold X passenger" .. Feels a bit silly with 900 people on one busstop/tile :)
04:13<Celestar>Forked: nope. This would mean mangling the passenger generation code.
04:14<Celestar>Forked: it will be done, but only if the first incarnation of cargodest is finished, because it has nothing to do with cargodest.
04:14<Forked>You spoke of some penalty yesterday, I thought at the moment it was something you put in with cargodest :)
04:19<Celestar>yes
04:19<Celestar>there is a penality for the number of passengers GOING TO a bus/tram stop
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04:26<Forked>aha
04:26<Forked>:)
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04:44<Celestar>meh
04:46<Noldo>how trunkable is it?
04:47*peter1138 ponders the feasibility of saving all cached vehicle information instead of recalculating it.
04:47<@peter1138>Well, it's feasible, but is it the only way...
04:48<Celestar>Noldo: how trunkable is what?
04:48<Celestar>peter1138: what do we gain?
04:48<@peter1138>It's laughably easy to create a NewGRF that will cause desyncs.
04:48<Noldo>dests ofcource
04:49<@peter1138>Celestar, less desyncs.
04:49<Celestar>Noldo: pretty .. but there are things missing apart from a thorough code review. it's all listed on the wiki
04:49<Celestar>peter1138: because of newgrfs?
04:50<@peter1138>Yes.
04:50<Celestar>what data would that be?
04:50<@peter1138>There's loads of it. Vehicle speed, power, weight, etc...
04:51<@peter1138>Cargo capacity...
04:51<DaleStan>Hm... Yes, it is. For CBs that are called "on game load or when vehicle enters/leaves a depot", return different values depending on whether the vehicle is in a depot or not
04:52<@peter1138>Yup.
04:52<@peter1138>Or lots of other vehicle variables.
04:52<@peter1138>Or date...
04:53<Celestar>are we not opening a pandora's box there?
04:53<@peter1138>Celestar, no, it's already open, and has been a long time.
04:53<@peter1138>We've solved a lot of the problems, but basically we relying on the GRF to not do anything like that.
04:54<@peter1138>*we're
04:55<Celestar>then we ought to close it (=
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04:56<@peter1138>It needs quite some changes, I think. Especially... road vehicles.
04:57<Celestar>what about completing cargodest first :P
04:57<DaleStan>The grf shouldn't, and it might well be a useful (to GRF authors) feature to save cached values and then call the CBs on game load anyway. Then ignore the result, except to issue a debug message if the game-load result doesn't match the cached value.
04:58<Celestar>hmpf
04:58<Celestar>http://www.fvfischer.de/clerror.png <= something is still wrong (=
04:59<@peter1138>-4 ?
04:59<Celestar>exactly (=
04:59<Celestar>I'm kind of wondering that too
05:00<Celestar>especially since I'm asserting everywhere that this doesn't happen :P
05:00<@peter1138>DaleStan, quite hard to ignore the result, especially for trains where earlier decisions affect later ones...
05:01<planetmaker>peter1138: just wondering: how much increased traffic would this communication of the grf calculations cause?
05:01<planetmaker>Or you plan to just communication once upon loading of a map?
05:01<@peter1138>...
05:02<DaleStan>"Ignore" as in "use the cached value from the savegame". This does require that you do the saving of cached data you were discussing, though.
05:02<@peter1138>planetmaker... savegame changes.
05:04<planetmaker>:) I wonder though... we had desyncs which can be resolved by re-loading the server...
05:04<@peter1138>Exactly.
05:04<planetmaker>ignoring this communication then won't solve a thing.
05:04<planetmaker>ah :)
05:13<@peter1138>Reloading the server causes it to recalculate all the cached values. Sometimes that'll fix things for a while, other times it'll be okay for a couple of players but no good for the rest.
05:15<Celestar>peter1138: http://www.fvfischer.de/cl4.diff
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05:18<Celestar>RFC
05:18<@peter1138>Why do you need that inheritance?
05:18<@peter1138>Hmm
05:19<Celestar>you mean CargoListType?
05:19<@peter1138>I think I see.
05:19<Celestar>cuz I have it in two classes
05:19<Celestar>and I think this is the clean solution
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05:20<Celestar>hm I still got a negative number again
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05:22<@peter1138>:o
05:22<Celestar>assault of the underscores!
05:22<Celestar>peter1138: I actually wanted to make DestinationList a sub-class of CargoList ...
05:22<Celestar>nested class I mean
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05:23<Celestar>but I thought better of it
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05:26<Celestar>why is this crap negative :SS
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05:31<Celestar>oh I know why
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05:32<Celestar>wee I have it
05:36<Forked>that New Oil system thread feels quite hostile
05:36<Celestar>Forked: hm?
05:37<Celestar>a hostlie thread? on the forum? NEVER!
05:37<Forked>;D
05:37-!-Noldo_ is now known as Noldo
05:38<Celestar>what's it about anyway?
05:38<Celestar>I don't get it
05:40<Forked>makes oil refineries produce fuel that you can transport to power plants..
05:41<Celestar>yeah.
05:41<Celestar>don't we have newgrfs that do that?
05:41<@peter1138>So it's what NewGRF can do?
05:41<Forked>(I thought they mostly ran on coal / nuclear / water /etc.. ) .. Are there actually large scale power plants that use fuel?
05:41<@peter1138>...
05:42<Forked>ok I guess I just made an idiot out of myself? =p
05:42<@peter1138>Your definition of fuel is wrong.
05:42<Forked>ah.
05:42<DaleStan>Nuclear fuel?
05:42<@peter1138>Coal is fuel...
05:42<Forked>Well Oilbased fuel then
05:42<Celestar>Forked: there are some
05:42<DaleStan>They are in fact called "fuel rods".
05:42<Celestar>in germany, it's about 2% of the installed peak power
05:43<@peter1138>Things don't 'run on' nuclear.
05:43<Noldo>there is a little one that burns oil like 300 meters from where I'm now
05:43<Noldo>though I think it's mostly for reserve power
05:43<Forked>considering the oil prices today :)
05:44<Noldo>I wonder what is the definition of fuel anyway
05:44<@peter1138>Coal and oil fired power plants are the bane of electric car supporters...
05:45-!-blathijs_ is now known as blathijs
05:45<Celestar>peter1138: er not really. A coal power plant still has a significantly higher efficiency than an microscopic ICE in a normal vehicle
05:46<blathijs>ICE? Internal Combustion Engine or something?
05:46<Forked>The ISP I work at is owned by one of the large regional power companies, that create all their electricity from water :) wee Norway
05:47<@peter1138>Celestar, yes, but they like to think of el-cars as totally clean.
05:47<@peter1138>Forked, using tidal flow or dams?
05:47<Forked>dams
05:48<Forked>Started building in the 1920s
05:48<Celestar>blathijs: yes
05:48<Celestar>peter1138: they aren't
05:48<@peter1138>So not entirely without environmental cost, although that's a one-off...
05:48<Celestar>peter1138: but cleaner than ICE cars with normal power mix; much cleaner with a low-fossil-fuel power mix
05:49<Forked>Well no, but still better than many other options.
05:49<Forked>I'd like to see more windpower in this country, place them out at sea
05:49<Celestar>wind power sucks unfortunately
05:49<@peter1138>Or blows? :o
05:50<@peter1138>God that was poor humour.
05:50<Forked>hrhr
05:50<Celestar>peter1138: http://www.fvfischer.de/cl.txt <= cargodest with cl5.diff (=
05:50<@peter1138>That looks better :D
05:50<Celestar>peter1138: yeah
05:50<Celestar>peter1138: I don't like TileLoopClearHelper but that's no cargodest problem(=
05:51<Noldo>why Md5::Procrss is that high on the list=
05:51<@peter1138>Noldo, because it's quite expensive.
05:52<Celestar>Noldo: and I have bazillions of newgrfs in my data dir
05:52<Celestar>peter1138: that still doesn't explain why it is called 2 million times (=
05:53<@peter1138>Celestar, because it's done in chunks of 1024 bytes.
05:53<Celestar>peter1138: that does indeed explain it (=
05:54<@peter1138>Maybe increasing that buffer size would speed it up.
05:54<Celestar>it's not run in-game, is it?
05:55<@peter1138>No, only on start up.
05:55<@peter1138>Not hugely important, but if it can be sped up simply, then why not?
05:55<Celestar>0.52 seconds
05:55<Celestar>that's how long it takes
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05:56<@peter1138>Not in debug mode ;)
05:56<@peter1138>s/debug mode/a debug compile/
05:56<Celestar>peter1138: gotta disappoint you
05:56<Celestar>it's in 64-byte chunks (=
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05:57<@peter1138>Ah...
05:57<@peter1138>Then Md5::Append() is called in 1024 byte chunks.
05:57<Celestar>if it's 1k then 2million calls still sounds like 2GB worth of newgrfs :P
05:58<@peter1138>Hehe
05:58<Celestar>lol@profile
05:58<@peter1138>So no point in changing that buffer size.
05:58<Celestar>breadth_first_visit in fine
05:59<Celestar>breadth_first_visit in file
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06:29<Celestar>heh
06:29<Celestar>DAMN :P
06:30<Celestar>my destination cache fails gloriously when Routing is disabled
06:31<@peter1138>:o
06:32<Celestar>well, asserts
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06:35<Brianetta>Fred
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06:37<Celestar>George
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06:37<Noldo>anything but Sue
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06:39<Celestar>heh
06:39<Celestar>done
06:43<Celestar>planetmaker: we need another networktest, I've done a large modification of the code
06:44<planetmaker>:)
06:44<Celestar>but it greatly speeds things up
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06:45<planetmaker>that's nice. Well, same procedure as last time, I guess.
06:46<Celestar>yeah
06:46<Celestar>but maybe we could test with a network and not only a star or something (=
06:46<Celestar>@openttd bugs
06:46<@DorpsGek>Celestar: Temporary Offline
06:47<planetmaker>Celestar: sure. Let's make a point-to-point PAX game then.
06:47<planetmaker>Like a number of cities connected via ICE and internal city-wide networks
06:48<planetmaker>if you tell me the hg could giving it a try to update the dev server right now :)
06:48<planetmaker><--- mercurial noob :)
06:48<Celestar>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2253 <= hr hr
06:48<Celestar>planetmaker: can't do it today
06:49<Celestar>planetmaker: hg pull; hg update should be enough for updating the stuff.
06:49<planetmaker>meh :(
06:49<Celestar>lunch time
06:49<planetmaker>enjoy your meal :)
06:50<Celestar>thanks
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07:16<Celestar>planetmaker: did we use any newgrfs last time?
07:17<planetmaker>IIRC no
07:17<Celestar>maybe we could use one proper network-save trainset (=
07:17<Celestar>safe*
07:18<planetmaker>:). Celestar: if you have something in mind in particular... feel free to supply a save with those grf which you like :D
07:18<planetmaker>or we could just take... NARS maybe as it also has nice towns.
07:18<planetmaker>(the NA city set)
07:18*Celestar shrugs
07:19<Celestar>I usually only play the DBSet
07:20<planetmaker>If you prefer :)
07:21<@peter1138>DBSet should be desync safe ;)
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07:21<@peter1138>It predates lots of stuff...
07:23<planetmaker>k, we can use that then. Nice ICEs :)
07:24<Celestar>yeah
07:24<Celestar>if we play that long :P
07:24<Celestar>but we can start in 1930 or summin
07:25<planetmaker>is there already something worthwhile in DBSet by that time?
07:26-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@62.113.133.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:27<@peter1138>... worthwhile ...
07:27<planetmaker>well. Probably wrong word :P
07:27<Forked>usable
07:27<@peter1138>They're all usable.
07:27<@peter1138>It's a perfect finely tuned set ;)
07:27<planetmaker>I usually start 1950 - that's why I'm asking :)
07:27<@peter1138>Ouch...
07:27<@peter1138>Starting in 1950 misses loads of good stuff.
07:28<Forked>I'll try again. In what year does the first engine appear in that trainset? =p
07:28<@peter1138>1920
07:28<Forked>ah.
07:30-!-FauxFaux_ [~faux@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #openttd
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07:36<planetmaker>how do I get the current version from hg?
07:38<planetmaker>hg st? hg info? I'm not sure what then the actual revision of the code is from what I get...
07:39<Progman>I used hg head
07:39<planetmaker>aye. Thx
07:39-!-Jupix2 is now known as Jupix
07:42<@peter1138>TrueBrain, how does developers/ work on http://hg.openttd.org/ ?
07:43<TrueBrain>peter1138: well, after you added it (what you did I see)
07:43<TrueBrain>we either need to wait for hg to reload ..
07:44<TrueBrain>or you look now ;)
07:44<TrueBrain>don't forget to set things in your hgrc ;)
07:44<TrueBrain>as in:
07:44<TrueBrain>cat truebrain/noai.hg/.hg/hgrc
07:44<TrueBrain>[web]
07:44<TrueBrain>description = NoAI patches
07:44<TrueBrain>contact = TrueBrain
07:46<@peter1138>Hmm, didn't know they existed.
07:46<TrueBrain>only if you have webhg over a repos :)
07:48<@peter1138>:)
07:48<@peter1138>Okay, changing hgrc worked... but reloading the hg server is needed for it to appear?
07:48<TrueBrain>nope, already there
07:49<@peter1138>No, I mean the repo :)
07:49<@peter1138>Say if I wanted to add another repo.
07:49<@peter1138>What's the deal? Just poke you? ;)
07:49<TrueBrain>hg doesn't scan the directory every page reload (would be rather inefficient), so it only does it once a .. day maybe
07:49<TrueBrain>so if you want it to appear, poke me :p
07:50<@peter1138>It doesn't do it once a day as it's been there a while ;)
07:50<TrueBrain>then it never rescans :p
07:50<@peter1138>Maybe a daily reload would be adequate?
07:50<Brianetta>New look: http://ppcis.org/standard/
07:50<TrueBrain>peter1138: reloading 'hg' is very troublesome .. but I will think about it :)
07:50<@peter1138>Or give me privs to do it, hehe
07:50<TrueBrain>peter1138: like you add that many new hgs over a short period of time ;)
07:50<TrueBrain>and I am almost always around, so .. ;) :p
07:51<Noldo>Brianetta: I like the bit about toyland
07:51<Brianetta>(:
07:51<@peter1138>Who does have admin rights on the server?
07:52-!-davis- [~asd@dtmd-4db2062b.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
07:52<Brianetta>The hg server?
07:52<Brianetta>Hello davis
07:52<Brianetta>New game
07:52<davis->hey there
07:52<@peter1138>The new dedicated server.
07:52<Brianetta>This time, with a newgrf
07:52<TrueBrain>peter1138: Rubidium and I do
07:52<davis->whad newgrf's you enabled?
07:52<Brianetta>UKRS base
07:52<davis->ah sweet
07:52<Brianetta>One single solitary newgrf
07:52<davis->anyway , last game was without any desyncs
07:52<Brianetta>If that causes no desyncs, I'll throw in some stations
07:52<davis->at least from what i seen
07:52<@peter1138>Did you change the start date back? :)
07:53<Brianetta>yes
07:53<Brianetta>peter1138: 1920
07:53<Brianetta>In both places, since I can't remember which of start_year and start_date is the one the game uses now.
07:53<davis->added modified building costs?
07:53<@peter1138>Hehe
07:53<Brianetta>davis: No.
07:53<davis->since it was slightly way to easy last game
07:53<davis->ah ok
07:53<Brianetta>One grf at a time
07:53<davis->mhm
07:53<Brianetta>until we discover which one is causing problems
07:54<davis->sounds like a plan
07:54<Brianetta>Once we find which, we play with just that one
07:54<Brianetta>to rule out the possibility that it's a problem with a combination
07:54<Brianetta>If we have one newgrf which we know causes desyncs, the devs can perhaps look at it.
07:55<Brianetta>Or, they can say "it will take too much time"
07:55<davis->yeah .. best way to do it
07:55<Brianetta>Clearly, the negrf cache needs overhauling
07:55<Brianetta>Everybody suspects it, including the devs
07:56<Brianetta>I think it's time to savei t
07:56<davis->all we can do is try ..
07:56<Brianetta>or, shock horror, have a secondary data set (an additional save file) which is only transferred at network connect
07:56<Brianetta>contaiing all the volatile stuff
07:56<davis->hm
07:57<davis->iam neither good at programming , neither i ever took a look at the ottd source
07:57<davis->so ive no idea at all
07:57<Brianetta>If the caches aren't flushed and stored inthe save, tey're not given to clients.
07:57<davis->ah
07:57<Brianetta>So either the caches need flushing, or they need sending along.
07:57<hylje>propagating bad state ahoy
07:57<Brianetta>hylje: Good or bad we don't care; it just needs tobe the same
08:00<davis->it will workout
08:00<davis->somehow
08:00<Celestar>back
08:01<Celestar>is the server running?
08:01<davis->which?
08:01<Celestar>cargodest
08:01<davis->shrugs
08:04<planetmaker>Celestar: not quite. But in short time, I think :P
08:04*planetmaker is slow trying to figure out things not having done before :)
08:04<Celestar>heh ok
08:07-!-glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd
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08:07<@peter1138>Anyway, my code is on http://hg.openttd.org/developers/peter1138/railtypes.hg/ :D
08:08<Celestar>looking
08:09<davis->:o
08:10<@peter1138>Lots of merges, unfortunately, but never mind :)
08:10-!-Pikka is now known as Pikka|afk
08:15<Celestar>peter1138: how do I obtain a diff between cargodest and trunk?
08:16<@peter1138>hg diff -r <revision of last svn change>
08:17<@peter1138>Which is fca6f9cf02ac, based on your repo on the server.
08:17<Celestar>heh
08:17<davis->wow i feel so un-nerdy here
08:17<Celestar>peter1138: that means I need an hg checkout, righT? (=
08:17<Celestar>of trunk I mean
08:17<@peter1138>No.
08:17-!-FauxFaux_ is now known as FauxFaux
08:18<Celestar>ah!
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08:19<planetmaker>2f548902356c <-- that's the version for me, if I pull from the cargodest repo
08:19<@peter1138>Yes. That's not the last svn changeset.
08:20<planetmaker>hm...
08:20<Celestar>it worked, thanks planetmaker
08:20<Celestar>thanks peter1138
08:20<@peter1138>Gives you a nice diff to review :)
08:21*peter1138 ponders doing the custom catenary.
08:21<Celestar>peter1138: yeah. 5500 lines of it
08:22<@peter1138>Gah, the elrail tables use absolute sprite IDs :o
08:22<Celestar>sorry peter1138
08:22<Celestar>that's my doing
08:22<Celestar>years ago (=
08:22<@peter1138>Yes I know
08:23<Celestar>I just wanted to accelerate your search for a scapegoat :P
08:23<@peter1138>Hmm, well I shall change all those tables to use an enummed offset.
08:24<@peter1138>Or I can subtract the base and add the new base each time.
08:24<@peter1138>Changing the tables is better I think :)
08:25<Celestar>I quite agree
08:26<Celestar>I can't beleive I've produced 5300 lines of diff with cargodest
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08:38<@peter1138>Heh
08:40<FauxFaux>Could be under 500 characters changed. :)
08:40<davis->:]
08:47<Celestar>true :D
08:47<Celestar>but I added 300 lines to console_cmds.cpp alone about :P
08:48<FauxFaux>Actually, that was mis-counting 7 lines as 6, and the file headers are a little longer than that, too.
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09:02*peter1138 fudges with Celestar's code
09:03<Celestar>peter1138: ?
09:03<@peter1138>The elrail drawing stuff :)
09:03<Celestar>ah
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09:06<@peter1138>Done.
09:07<@peter1138>http://svn.bucks.net/~petern/elrail_offsets.diff
09:07<@peter1138>Untested ;)
09:08<Celestar>nice (=
09:08<@Belugas>fudge... got to eat...
09:09*ben_goodger has doritos
09:09<@peter1138>Heh, I just ate some fudge :)
09:09<@peter1138>Celestar:
09:10<@peter1138>Looks sane?
09:10<Celestar>just reading through it
09:10<Celestar>but for what I can tell yes.
09:10<Celestar>let's hope it doesn't slow
09:10<@peter1138>Shouldn't do.
09:11<Celestar>because the elrail drawing code is horribly slow
09:11<Celestar>peter1138: while you're messing with it, can you change the Qt comments to javadoc comments?
09:11<@peter1138>There's enough maths there that an additional addition is hardly stressy.
09:11<@peter1138>Er...
09:13<Celestar>peter1138: "//!" to "///<" ?
09:14<Celestar>just so that we're consistent, and those lines show up in the diff anyway
09:14<@peter1138>Oh.
09:14<@peter1138>Well, that's a separate diff I think.
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09:15<fjb>Hello
09:15<davis->hi
09:15<Celestar>peter1138: as I said, you're modding the lines anyway
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09:17<@peter1138>True.
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09:36<Celestar>peter1138: we're about to nettest cargodest with the new cache
09:38<Gekz>cache?
09:38<Gekz>new cache?
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09:43<@peter1138>Cool
09:43<@peter1138>I can't play ;)
09:44<Forked>I want to :\ in a couple of hours !
09:44-!-Pikka|afk [~PikkaBird@58.173.248.50] has quit []
09:45<Celestar>Gekz: cargodest had a noticable impact on performance. It no longer has
09:45<Gekz>:O
09:45<Gekz>nice.
09:45<@peter1138>I didn't notice it ;)
09:45-!-guru3 [~guru3@81-235-164-45-no21.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:45<fjb>IT people like to cache, especially if customers are starting to ask too much.
09:46<Celestar>peter1138: You could only notice it when you had around 20000 units of a single cargotype waiting at a station, and that at like a dozen stations
09:47<@peter1138>14:24 droncho> New news from jacktimeline: Changeset [2805]: Cleanup.
09:47<@peter1138>Nice verbose commit messages ;)
09:48<Celestar>peter1138: where's that from?
09:48<@peter1138>kackd
09:48<@peter1138>er
09:48<@peter1138>jackd
09:48<@peter1138>:o
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10:11<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> Celestar, yes, but they like to think of el-cars as totally clean. <- the main "clean" argument is that it shifts the exhaust gases from the inner city to one single big industrial area... which is imho a big enough gain already (this applies also to trams and trolley busses)
10:11<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: that is also a valid point, except for CO2
10:12<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: also .. any other emmisions are lower in normal powerplants than in mobile ICEs
10:14-!-grumbel [~grumbel@i577B9DE9.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
10:16<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: plus it's easier to replace 5 coal power plants by clean ones than a fleet of a million vehicles
10:17<@peter1138>True.
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, they should get their butts going in making electric cars affordable and run in magnitudes of 200km per refill
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>but... the oil lobby...
10:17<@peter1138>Yes.
10:17<@peter1138>Bastards.
10:19<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: it's not only the oil lobby
10:19<@peter1138>Gah.
10:19<Celestar>neither politicians nor the car makes have an interest in EVs
10:20-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has joined #openttd
10:20<@peter1138>. o O ( fuel taxes )
10:21<fjb>The northern american railways should slowly begin to build catenary...
10:21<fjb>We had peak oil and peak coal...
10:22<@peter1138>And they *crushed* the GM EV1.
10:24<@peter1138>Brilliant!
10:24<Celestar>peter1138: exactly
10:24<Celestar>peter1138: the EV1 was a problem
10:24<@peter1138>The Tesla Roadster is built in England.
10:24<@peter1138>But it won't be sold here.
10:24<@peter1138>Celestar, it was too good?
10:24<Celestar>peter1138: er you had to rent the battery
10:24<@peter1138>Heh
10:25<Celestar>it cost a shitload and came without battery
10:25<@peter1138>Unfortunately the Tesla Roadster doesn't exactly look like a very practical car.
10:26<ben_goodger>it's practical enough, for what it is --- an overpowered sports car
10:26<@peter1138>Quite.
10:26<@peter1138>It does 200 miles on a charge apparently. Probably not flat out ;)
10:26<Celestar>I *hope* the GM Volt will be a success
10:27<@peter1138>We need road-catenary ;)
10:27<@peter1138>Hmm, dodgems
10:28<Celestar>peter1138: I've thought of road-catenary as well
10:28<Celestar>it would be sufficient on the highway
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10:29<Celestar>peter1138: but it has problems
10:30<Celestar>peter1138: trucks need to fit, so cars would need an ENOURMOUS pantograph
10:30<Celestar>at least 3 m
10:30<@peter1138>Yup
10:31<Celestar>it needs a decent pressure for at least 40kW
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10:32<Celestar>but then it mustn't be heavy enough to have a car high-centering itself in every turn
10:33<Neo12>hi, ich have a question concerning updating ottd with the newest nightly under ubuntu, is there anybody who can help me with that issue
10:34<Celestar>no because you neglected to state the issue
10:34<Forked>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Compiling_on_Linux is a good start :)
10:35<@peter1138>Sheesh, a 2006 Prius with 98,000 miles on the clock...
10:35<Forked>taxi?
10:36<Celestar>peter1138: our 2006 530d is similar
10:36<Neo12>ok, can you give me a short tuto how to do the update, I downloaded the newest nightly and extracted it, than I complied the nightly without errors but I can not run the game
10:37<@peter1138>"bin/openttd"
10:37-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@p5B0DA3AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>"make run"
10:37<Neo12>i did that
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>my crystal ball says that you didn't install libsdl-dev, ignored the big warning "building dedicated only" and now come here because no GUI opens
10:39<Forked>oh and copy the grf's to bin/data ?
10:40<planetmaker>shouldn't be needed, if they're in the proper location.
10:40*Forked never does proper anyhting :\
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>"proper" meaning ~/.openttd/data
10:40<planetmaker>look at the readme. For each OS a dir exists where all installations of OpenTTD look for their grf
10:40<Forked>hm :)
10:41<Ammler>or at our blog :-)
10:41<planetmaker>http://www.openttdcoop.org/blog <-- read the latest article, Forked :)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>which is good when you share files between builds, but not when you share the same build with different users
10:43-!-Reemo [Dr_Jekyll@p57B0EFD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:43<Ammler>I use also ~/.openttd for my grfs
10:43<Ammler>on the server, I have the originals at /usr/local...
10:44-!-SmatZ_ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has joined #openttd
10:44<SmatZ_>!logs
10:44<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
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10:58<+glx>Neo12: what happens when you start it ?
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11:00<Forked>openttd does not run too well in remote desktop when you only have 1Mbit outbound on your dsl
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11:05<@peter1138>Odd that.
11:05<Neo12>glx: I can't start it there is no executable file
11:05<+glx>did you compile?
11:05<Neo12>yes
11:05<+glx>it should be in bin
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11:09<Neo12>no ?!?
11:09-!-grumbel [~grumbel@i577B9DE9.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
11:09<Neo12>do I need something more than the nightly
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11:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you need to tell us exactly what steps you took and what output they gave
11:28<@Belugas>and of course, you have to verify presence of original data files :)
11:31-!-fjb_ is now known as fjb
11:33<@Belugas>have you tried svn instead of the sources in the zip?
11:35<yorick>the source zip does not move the bin to the /bin directory, someone reported that before
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>i thought that was a windows problem...
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>or rather an MSVC problem
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11:41<+glx>that's MSVC only indeed
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11:48<Sacro|Work>can't you tell it where to move it#?
11:49<+glx>maybe
11:49<@peter1138>Just click the run button :D
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12:04<Neo12>sorry for the delay, I've tried but it still doesnt work
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12:11<Eddi|zuHause>and we have still no idea WHAT THE HELL you are "trying"
12:11<+glx>hmm moving openttd.exe to bin is doable, but release process will be harder
12:12-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fed31.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
12:12<yorick>he left
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12:26<fjb>Moin frosch123
12:26<frosch123>quak fjb :)
12:27<fjb>:-)
12:27<frosch123>already snow on your side?
12:29<@Belugas>YURK!!
12:29<@Belugas>two words i HATE!
12:29<@Belugas>R and S
12:29<@Belugas>guess the words ;)
12:30<frosch123>oh, sorry, should have said S word :)
12:30<@Belugas>lol
12:30<frosch123>O, R and S are taken now, we cannot continue that that long...
12:31<@Belugas>O?
12:31<frosch123>in context with MB
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>i have a B word to offer :ü
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>:p
12:35-!-KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738c8c8.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
12:35<Sacro|Work>Sir KillaloT?
12:35*Sacro|Work misses robot wars :(
12:36*TrueBrain gives Sacro|Work a cookie: www.amazon.com
12:37<@peter1138>S?
12:38<@peter1138>Oh.. snow :o
12:38*Prof_Frink drives hypno-disc into Sacro|Work's legs
12:39<Sacro|Work>:o
12:44<fjb>frosch123: No snow yet.
12:47*frosch123 was just wondering as it is no longer 30° every day on his side
12:50<fjb>It's actually 19°C and not raining.
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13:19<Wolf01>hello
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13:20<fjb>Hello Wolf01
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13:24<Wolf01>peter1138! you were playing with bridges, do you know that when a company goes bankrupt all his bridges are removed, ROAD bridges too!
13:24<@peter1138>I was playing with bridges, was I?
13:25<Wolf01>catenary on aqueducts
13:25<Wolf01>or something like this
13:25<Wolf01>:P
13:25<@peter1138>I see...
13:25<SmatZ_>it has been this way since TTD
13:26<SmatZ_>probably TTO
13:26<SmatZ_>they are not removed only when there is a vehicle on that bridge / tunnel
13:26<SmatZ_>in that case owner is set to none
13:26<SmatZ_>or something like that
13:28<Wolf01>I didn't remember that, I played many games with the AI, so I'm so lucky that there was a vehicle of mine on every bridge made by the AI when the game tried to remove them because the AI gone bankruptcy?
13:28<SmatZ_>probably
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13:29<Wolf01>nice... it's difficult to avoid removing shared things when the company goes bankrupt?
13:30-!-Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggstry
13:31<Ammler>Wolf01: how to know, that the bridge is shared?
13:31<Wolf01>because all vehicles can travel on road bridges?
13:31<Ammler>would be easier to just let all bridges stay.
13:31<Wolf01>no, only road
13:32<Ammler>but all road bridges.
13:32<Wolf01>yes all
13:32<Wolf01>the game leave all those stupid road constructs on the landscape but removes road bridges... why not the contrary?
13:34<Ammler>maybe you should suggest that to noAI...
13:34<Ammler>how can you play with that old ai :-)
13:34<Wolf01>eh, I love it
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>i totally loathe it...
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>i have not played with AI long before i learned about TTD
13:39-!-mortal` [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
13:39<Wolf01>but the main problem is not the stupid road constructs, but the bridges I use which are made by the AI
13:40-!-Mortal is now known as Guest3659
13:40-!-mortal` is now known as mortal
13:40<Forked>hm.. my ET-87 has 1hp .. moving kinda slow :)
13:40<Forked>oh wait, nm
13:40-!-Marduuhin [~mardo4@84.86.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #openttd
13:41<Forked>cool.
13:41<Forked>(my first game with DBXL)
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>the second wagon has the power
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13:42<Forked>yeah I saw :)
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's a cute feature ;)
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>i can't await version 0.9... if that has everything MB promised
13:46<yorick>my chat log has glitches
13:46-!-Guest3659 [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:48<fjb>If 0.9 ever gets released...
13:52<@peter1138>... he'll make it TTDP-only ;)
13:52-!-Marduuhin [~mardo4@84.86.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:53<fjb>Not sure. You impressed him with your plans for the level crossings.
13:53<Wolf01>we can modify OTTD to let the grf think it's loaded on TTDPatch :O
13:54<fjb>Then he would forbid it in the licence...
13:54<fjb>But on the other hand he hates the engine pools.
13:54<Wolf01>who read licenses?
13:55<fjb>Same people who will not hack the the grfs so that it loads on OpenTTD anyway.
13:55-!-Marduuhin [~mardo4@84.86.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #openttd
13:55<Wolf01>----> <Wolf01> we can modify OTTD to let the grf think it's loaded on TTDPatch :O
13:56<Ammler>MB will also have vehicels in his set, which only runs on OTTD
13:56<fjb>Why should we modify OpenTTD when a grf is easily hackable?
13:56-!-FR^2 [~frquadrat@oscar.frquadrat.de] has joined #openttd
13:56<Wolf01>because so we don't break the license
13:56<yorick>because openttd is also easily modifiable
13:56<Ammler>so you just don't know him :P
13:57<@Belugas>guys, may I say you are pissing me off?
13:57<Wolf01>XD
13:57<Wolf01>hi Belugas
13:57<@Belugas>hello Wolf01
13:57<yorick>you may, wheter we stop pissing your off is a different thing...
13:58*Forked gets the popcorn and finds a frontrow seat
13:58<Wolf01>peter1138, I made a remake of the swamp scenario, this time with no grfs (I only loaded some of them to make a screenshot after saving it), do you want it?
13:58<+glx><Wolf01> we can modify OTTD to let the grf think it's loaded on TTDPatch :O <-- reminds me when we added support for some features used by canset ;)
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think you are overexaggerating MBs "problem" with OpenTTD
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think he really has anything against it, he just gets a bit loud when something goes against his will ;)
14:04<davis->who wants chowder
14:07-!-insulfrog [~trainslov@92.1.37.137] has joined #openttd
14:07<insulfrog>hi
14:07<davis->hi
14:08<@peter1138>Argh, george's LV4 strikes again
14:08<@peter1138>(I've got a long vehicle that looks like it's stopped on a crossing, when it's behind it really.
14:08<@peter1138>)
14:09<fjb>Didn't he want to make LV5 even bigger?
14:09<Prof_Frink>Bigger? My my...
14:09-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1BABE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:10<fjb>Did the discussion about enhanced vehicle costs result in anything?
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14:14-!-Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd
14:14<Yexo>hello
14:16<fjb>Hello Yexo
14:17<yorick>fjb: he wanted to make then articulated :)
14:17<yorick>so you could have even longer long vehicles
14:19<@peter1138>Articulated is no problem.
14:19<@peter1138>He wanted double length vehicles.
14:19<|Jeroen|>is there an offical package for pocket pc ?
14:19<fjb>yorick: Yes, but not only articulated, but also every part bigger.
14:19<@peter1138>No.
14:20<Wolf01>http://de.fishki.net/picsw/082008/21/strannie_people/028_strannie_people.jpg XDDDDD
14:20-!-Deathmaker [~death@a89-183-13-227.net-htp.de] has joined #openttd
14:20<yorick>germans
14:20<fjb>Darvin Award...
14:22<insulfrog>hmm...
14:26<davis->:S
14:27<davis->not all germans are as incredible stupid as that guys
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: very old...
14:27<davis->that too
14:31<dih>tri
14:31<dih>tra
14:31<dih>trallalla
14:31<davis->indeed
14:31<dih>planetmaker, you should talk to Deathmaker
14:35<Deathmaker>?
14:35<dih>well.. one creates, the other destroys
14:35<dih>is it that _not_ obvious?
14:38<fjb>There are dead planets.
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14:45<insulfrog>Has anyone had a go at the challenges at http://www.geocities.com/pep_catala/ ?
14:47<insulfrog>it might be an idea to post similar challenges on the forums, but using OTTD
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>dih: and which is which?
14:48<Wolf01>*why* too many signals?
14:48<TrueBrain>does geocities still exist?!
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>apparently ;)
14:49<insulfrog>yep
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>i hate fixed width webpages
14:49-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:50<fjb>Webbroser windows don't have a fixed size like paper?
14:51<frosch123>you can download the new TTDP 1.8 on that page :)
14:52<Wolf01>uh, the game loads on OTTD :O
14:53<Wolf01>with some error popups about invalid length trains
14:53<SpComb>nice page
14:53<insulfrog>them savegames are for TTDP only though
14:54<SpComb>I like how the entire web page goes into a 10%-wide frame on the right side once you enable javascript
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14:55<fjb>Hm, I see no difference after enabling Javascript.
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15:02<insulfrog>Essentially, them sort of challenges are a great idea and basically you load up OTTD, set up a network, then make challenges (e.g. like a few badly built junctions), then post the challenge as a savegame and a readme to describe the challenge
15:02<insulfrog>also put numbered signs to help out
15:03<yorick>fjb: refresh
15:03<insulfrog>post that challenge and someone has to complete the challenge and post the solution
15:03-!-xintron [xintron@titan.blinkenshell.org] has joined #openttd
15:03<fjb>yorick: What would I do without you?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>may i throw in the sim city scenarios... "this city has suffered from <insert desaster>. rebuild it and reach a population/income/whatever within 10 years"
15:04<insulfrog>similar
15:04<xintron>Evening :) Would you guys recommend upgrading elictrifyed railroads to mono or build new railroads?
15:04<insulfrog>upgrade to elec first
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>play a newgrf set, they almost never have universally useful maglevs
15:05<@peter1138>Wolf01: bung it in the scenarios forum?
15:05<insulfrog>then improve existing network
15:05<yorick>fjb: die from forgetting to eat, probably
15:05<xintron>insulfrog: I have elec atm and in a few years mono will be available
15:06<insulfrog>I would wait until maglev becomes available (I haven't used monorail for a while)
15:07<xintron>insulfrog: hrmm... ok. So still use elec when expanding or build mono then?
15:07<xintron>and then upgrade mono and elec to maglev when it becomes available?
15:09<insulfrog>hmm... upgrading can be difficult
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>there is nothing interesting happening after 2000, that's the only flaw of the DBSet
15:09<xintron>insulfrog: yes it can
15:10<insulfrog>upgrade when maglev becomes available
15:10<insulfrog>and use maglev
15:10<xintron>and still use elec even thou mono is available?
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>the daylength patch helps working around this problem, fortunately :)
15:11<insulfrog>mostly I don't upgrade but any new routes I build, I will use mono or maglev
15:12<yorick>fjb: don't forget to breath, too!
15:12<fjb>yorick: Thank you
15:13<insulfrog>(brb, just going to the little room)
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>einatmen... ausatmen... einatmen... :p
15:14<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: I tried to paint some BR 146, 152 and 189, but I failed. Doesn't look like I wanted it.
15:14<fjb>:-P
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>do english speaking people have that kind of classic (blonde-) jokes?
15:14<xintron>What NewGRF's would you guys recommend to use?
15:15<insulfrog>back
15:15<xintron>Eddi|zuHause: haha, I hope they do :)
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>i mean ones that people recognise from two words :)
15:15-!-FR^2 [~frquadrat@oscar.frquadrat.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:16<xintron>Don't know
15:16<xintron>Eddi|zuHause: Where are you from?
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>here.
15:16<xintron>haha, nice :P
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i am at home here...
15:16<xintron>127.0.0.1 is my home
15:16<yorick>localhost is mine
15:17-!-FR^2 [~frquadrat@194.143.134.103] has joined #openttd
15:17<xintron>yorick: :P
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>::1 anyone?
15:18<xintron>What newGRF's would you guys recommend me using on my server?
15:18<fjb>Oh, xintron is from Sweden...
15:18<xintron>fjb: yes :)
15:18<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Me!
15:18<Eddi|zuHause># ping6 ::1
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>PING ::1(::1) 56 data bytes
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>64 bytes from ::1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.080 ms
15:19<yorick>fe80::4d68:b928:9653:836d%8 anyone?
15:19<fjb>No. :-)
15:19<Sacro>anyone tell me how to get 1 bit of a byte in c#?
15:19<Sacro>will return (byte)(value << (startbit)); do?
15:19<xintron>anyone? :P
15:19<fjb>xintron: Whatever grfs you like, but chose wisely.
15:19<Eddi|zuHause># ping6 fe80::4d68:b928:9653:836d%8
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>ping: unknown iface 8
15:19<yorick>Sacro: getBit?
15:20<DaleStan>xintron: Ones you like, generally.
15:20<yorick>Eddi: yes, that is my "link-local" ip
15:20<xintron>fjb: which one would you recommend?
15:20<fjb>Depends.
15:20<xintron>DaleStan: sure, I got that. What about that with different train stations, anyone used that one?
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>xintron: generally, germans tend to recommend DBSet and british recommend UKRS :)
15:21<DaleStan>Which one with different train stations? There are umpteen such GRFs.
15:21<xintron>DaleStan: The NewGRF Stations that's on the wiki
15:21<xintron>lol, nvm
15:22<xintron>Where can I find some then?
15:22<frosch123>http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/
15:22<DaleStan>Google? The site advertised on the forums?
15:22<fjb>I like the DBset because I like the elctric engines. I like UKRS because it supports newcargos and has some nice diesel switchers, I like CanSet because its many features and great wagons.
15:26-!-FR^2 [~frquadrat@194.143.134.103] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by caffein depletion...]
15:29-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@p5B0DA3AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
15:30<insulfrog>I have been looking at the 'game-sharing' post on the forums, quite a brill idea (different from conventional multiplayer co-op :p )
15:32<insulfrog>I wonder if we could use OTTD instead of TTDX?
15:33<Celestar>hm?
15:34<insulfrog>lets see if i could bring up the thread
15:34-!-davis- [~asd@dtmd-4db2062b.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:34<Celestar>sorry I just joined
15:34-!-Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>there is an infrastructure sharing patch in the forum, just look it up and apply it...
15:37<Celestar>infrastructure sharing will rock with cargodest methinks
15:37<xintron>What's the difference between elec and mono? Do trains still have to slow down in curves/hills?
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: i think there are issues with transfer credit
15:38<insulfrog>no, it's not that, there is a post on the TT savegames section where players get 10 years of play, then save it, then pass the save onto another player (I have read about it a few mins back)
15:38<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: no there isn't. just pay each route individually.
15:39<@peter1138>Celestar, I've got a problem.
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: that might open up ways for cheating money
15:39<@peter1138>I'm trying to play my rail types stuff as if cargodest is available :o
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. have 3 stations A,B,C, where C is the "sink". have trains running from A to B and back, have a "dummy train" in a depot with orders from B to C
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>trains haul all the cargo from A via B (to C) and get paid
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>now change the orders of the dummy train to "A to C"
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>the trains haul everything back
15:40<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: the passengers can remember the distance traveled (per player) and pay every player on arrival
15:40-!-davis- [~asd@dtmd-4db2062b.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>this way, you can haul everthing back and forth without ever delivering it
15:42<Celestar>peter1138: LOL. let's move cargodest to trunk and it works (= Or just pull cargodest into railtypes (=
15:42-!-Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:43<xintron>What's the difference between elec and mono? Do trains still have to slow down in curves/hills?
15:43<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: well, just remember the payment, but execute it only when the cargo is at the final destination.
15:43<Yexo>Celestar: how far are you with cargodest anyway? (I've been away the last 10 days)
15:43<Celestar>Yexo: very far.
15:43*insulfrog can't find the thread he is looking for
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>so basically, instead of the total transfer credit, you store each individual payment
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>and the company associated with it
15:44<Celestar>Yexo: I've added another large change today however (which decreases CPU usage by at least an order of magnitude on large maps), so there is need for another network test. Otherwise, just check the wiki, I'm just expanding it :)
15:44-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
15:44<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yes, correct.
15:44<Celestar>Yexo: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Passenger_and_cargo_destinations
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>but that might open up the possibility of a player sabotaging lines by such dummy trains
15:45<Yexo>thx Celestar, I'll have a look
15:45<frosch123>Celestar: I've checked the autoreplace handling in cargodest. When calling RemoveRoute() and AddRoute() on a single client is desync-safe everything should be fine.
15:45<insulfrog>ah, here it is: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=30855
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>it will add supposedly "short" routes across the map, but no vehicles actually go there
15:45<xintron>anyone?
15:45<davis->:S
15:46<Yexo>xintron: afaik, the only difference is the fact that monorail vehicles are faster generally
15:46<insulfrog>I knew I saw that shared game topic somewhere
15:46<Celestar>Yexo: it also contains what needs to be done
15:46<Celestar>frosch123: RemoveRoute/AddRoute needs to be called on all clients. otherwise boom
15:46<@peter1138>xintron, less speed reduction in curves, but not much.
15:46<Celestar>frosch123: what would I need to change?
15:46<xintron>peter1138: ah, thanks :)
15:47<@peter1138>Which is silly really, as real life monorails are generally quite slow, aren't they?
15:47<Celestar>peter1138: VERY
15:47<@Rubidium>not all though
15:47<@peter1138>Depends if you class maglev as a monorail ;)
15:48<frosch123>Celestar: manual autoreplace (the button in depot) calls CmdMoveRailVehicle differently often on clients
15:48<insulfrog>and here is its screenie thread for the shared game topic: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=562383#562383
15:48<xintron>Is it possible to build a new monorail depo on an excisting elec depo with trains in it and then update the trains manually?
15:48<Yexo>xintron: no
15:48<Celestar>frosch123: could you have another look? I'm a tad busy the next two days.
15:49<frosch123>Celestar: but I thought the routing network is also not stored in savegame...
15:49<Celestar>frosch123: nope it's not
15:49<xintron>Yexo: hrmm... ok, so then I have to build a new depo next to the old one and create new trains and copy the orders if I want to upgrade?
15:49<Yexo>xintron: correct
15:49<frosch123>so, why do have AddRoute and RemoveRoute called in parallel?
15:49<Celestar>frosch123: that's why AddRoute must be done on all clients
15:49-!-Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd
15:49<Celestar>frosch123: I don't get the question. The Routing Network must be identical on all clients, right?
15:49<frosch123>Well, I meant calling RemoveRoute for some routes, and then readd the same routes by AddRoute
15:50<frosch123>so the edges might be stored in a different order in the graph
15:51<Celestar>frosch123: that doesn't matter
15:51<frosch123>then everything is fine :)
15:51<Celestar>afaik edges are sorted anyway
15:51<@peter1138>That happens even without DC_EXEC? :o
15:51<+glx>btw if it's done in commands it should happen in the same order on all clients
15:51-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@78-21-228-27.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:52<frosch123>peter1138: the complete replacement train is built to be able to call all callbacks etc. then it is sold again and all vehicles are moved to their previous location :p
15:53<frosch123>glx: the problem is that autoreplace without DC_EXEC calls other commands with DC_EXEC
15:53<@peter1138>Hmm, with a custom random seed?
15:53<frosch123>random seed is stored
15:53<frosch123>to replay callbacks
15:54<@peter1138>Hmm, doesn't that assume the random seed will be the same between test and DC_EXEC?
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>you should just fork() when testing autoreplace :)
15:54<@peter1138>I don't think that is the case.
15:54<Celestar>frosch123: long story short. if you remove and add the same route on the client, it shouldn't matter a thing
15:54<frosch123>it is the case
15:54<@peter1138>Unlikely that callbacks will be random-based...
15:55<@peter1138>It is the case on a single player game, certainly, but not multiplayer. Unless you've done some magic.
15:55<frosch123>yes, the magic :)
15:55<@peter1138>:o
15:55-!-ychaouche [52e02f5f@67.207.141.120] has joined #openttd
15:56<ychaouche>Hi there
15:56<ychaouche>I have a train that wont leave the garage
15:56<ychaouche>the garage is linked to rails
15:57<ychaouche>so I don't know what is wrong
15:57<Wolf01>there's a train on the rails?
15:57<ychaouche>anyone ?
15:57<Wolf01>the rails are of the wrong railtype
15:57<Sacro>the driver is still in bed
15:57<Celestar>ychaouche: railtype
15:57<Wolf01>or you didn't started the train
15:57<ychaouche>I started it
15:57<ychaouche>but I did not know there were specific railtype
15:57<ychaouche>s
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>does it move when you click the "ignore signals" button?
15:58<ychaouche>Did not try
15:58<ychaouche>brb
15:58<Wolf01>does it crashes on something when you click on the same button?
15:58<Wolf01>XD
15:58<Celestar>ychaouche: click and hold down the LMB on the rail build window
15:59<ychaouche>oh yes
15:59<ychaouche>it does
15:59<ychaouche>leave now
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>then another train is already on the line
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>you need signals, or they crash
15:59<ychaouche>ahhhhh...
15:59<ychaouche>now i c
15:59*Celestar puts his fingers in his ears
15:59<ychaouche>ok thx
15:59<ychaouche>lol
15:59<ychaouche>ok i'll put some signals there
15:59<ychaouche>:)
15:59<Celestar>ychaouche: read manual: wiki.openttd.org
15:59<ychaouche>fine
16:00*Belugas gives a towel to Celestar, for cleaning up the now dirty finger
16:00<Celestar>O_o
16:00*davis- burps
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>Schultz...
16:01*Eddi|zuHause slaps everyone on the forehead
16:01<davis->:D
16:01<Wolf01>he's playing like my very first game... 2 stations, 1 depot, 4 trains, no signals... I was stopping them by hand, and I didn't figured out why somebody decided to make a such complicate game with a lot of user control
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16:01<Eddi|zuHause>i learned about signals from the AI :)
16:01<Celestar>LOL
16:01<Wolf01>I too
16:01<davis->same
16:01<Celestar>I BOUGHT the game and READ THE MANUAL guys
16:02<davis->when ttd was released?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>it was the TT Demo, there was no manual with it
16:02<Wolf01>I played the demo, 15 minutes demo, for AGES
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>2 years was my demo...
16:02<Celestar>davis-: LONG ago
16:02<davis->year ?
16:02<Celestar>summin like mid-90s
16:02<davis->just trying to figuer how old I been
16:02<davis->as I started playing
16:02<Celestar>93, 94 .. maybe 95
16:02<@peter1138>'95
16:02<Celestar>peter1138: TTO ?
16:03<Celestar>or TTD?
16:03<@peter1138>TTD
16:03<Celestar>I bought TTO the day it was released
16:03<@peter1138>I bought it a bit later, heh...
16:03<davis->i think i played it the first time around 98
16:03<davis->me being 7
16:03<davis->so i wasnt all about reading the maual
16:03<davis->manual*
16:04<davis->^^
16:04<Wolf01>I bought TTDX for Dos this year
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: after my brother bought the game (at a rediculously high price) i did read the manual (and learned a lot about how it REALLY works)
16:04<davis->my dad did , never realy played it tho
16:05<TrueBrain>pff, I played the game at age 10 .. english was not part of my known languages :p
16:05<davis->haha
16:05<TrueBrain>well, 12 in fact
16:05<davis->however .. the game still didnt get old
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea if the demo was in english
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>the real game was in german
16:06<davis->true
16:07<Celestar>I'm off a bit
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>but there really wasn't a lot that needed english skills...
16:07-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@p5B0DA3AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:08<davis->"Fahrzeug 3 wird alt und klapperig und muss dringend ersetzt werden"
16:08<davis->:D
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>not in the demo :)
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>the demo ended in 1932
16:08<@peter1138>Wolf01, for DOS? You fail ;)
16:08<davis->^_^
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>and you could only build rails
16:08<Wolf01>the only one I found
16:08<davis->anyone remembers that scenarion where you started with that huge company
16:09<davis->with a relativly large railway network
16:09<davis->sub tropical?
16:09<davis->scenario*
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i ever played the TTD scenarios
16:09<davis->:|
16:09<davis->cant remember the name of it , sadly
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>they are on your original TTD CD :)
16:10<davis->if that one would still work
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>they should work in OTTD
16:10<davis->:]
16:12<Wolf01>without any company property, because OTTD removes them from scenarios
16:12<Wolf01>at least the last time I tried to load one of them
16:13<davis->D:
16:13<davis->is there somewhere a collection of severs that run with several newgrfs?
16:13<davis->stations / trains / building costs and so on
16:13<davis->basicaly i just know brianetta's
16:14<Wolf01>openttdcoops
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16:15<Wolf01>see a pokemon...
16:16<davis->thanks wolf
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16:27<Wolf01>how cute... no mouse wheel, 5x4 stations, 10 cars trains, no resizable windows
16:27<Wolf01>NO AUTORAIL!!!!!
16:29<insulfrog>I have to go, cya :)
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16:29<Wolf01>the first thing I tried was to build a station on a flat area with an hole
16:30<@peter1138>Hehe
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>Brianettas server does not use "several" newgrfs :p
16:31<Wolf01>I tried TWO times... then I figured that buildonslopes was not invented yet
16:36<fjb>Hm, when the new track layering got implemented for roads you could take the road sprites from ISR and make a road grf with them. Then you can have your trucks driving through the stations and harbours. :-)
16:43<Sacro>ooh an Insulfrog
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16:44<@peter1138>When it got? It happened?
16:44<fjb>When it will have been implemented... Better?
16:45<@peter1138>Not really.
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes. there is a secret implementation by some guy named peter1138, didn't you hear?
16:45<@peter1138>s/got/is/ makes sense
16:45<fjb>peter1138: How is it in correct English?
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>simple tenses are too simple for complexity loving germans ;)
16:46<@peter1138>When the new track layering is implemented for roads ...
16:46<fjb>Oh, that simple?
16:46<@peter1138>Yes.
16:46<fjb>Hm...
16:47<@peter1138>We're simple people ;)
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16:47<Eddi|zuHause>future perfect passive is too complicated for the british, apparently :)
16:48-!-bruce89 [~bruce89@85-210-112-36.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #openttd
16:48<@peter1138>Blame the French, or the Danish, or someone...
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16:49<Wolf01>Italians!!!
16:49<fjb>"is implemented" is passive? Learning languages was always a difficult thing.
16:49<fjb>French is easy. When it sounds good it must be correct.
16:49<@peter1138>Wolf01, they were a bit earlier.
16:53-!-mikl [~mikl@87.97.29.118.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #openttd
16:53<Wolf01>'night all
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16:54<@peter1138>Everyone invaded Britain and so we have the best bits of all those languages ;)
16:55<fjb>Schienenzeppelin: http://www.myimg.de/?img=AgendaAG27Sep1933f58cd.png :-)
16:56<fjb>Hm, best bits? You threw away all the nice bits...
16:56<@peter1138>That mine really fits in :p
16:56<@peter1138>Or whatever it is.
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16:57<bruce89>can't beat gaelic, everything's called "black rock"
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: it does not implement itself, so it is passive...
16:59<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Self modifying code...
16:59<+glx>gaelic is silly ;)
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: self modifying != self writing
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>code generators are very common, but they are "stupid"
17:00<bruce89>glx: must have done the job though
17:01<fjb>Gaelic is uneconomical. You need far to much paint for the station names.
17:01<+glx>lol
17:01<+glx>fjb: isn't that welsh?
17:01<bruce89>not in the case of Mallaig (Malaig)
17:01<bruce89>indeed, that's Welsh
17:02<fjb>glx: Maybe, just something spoken on that stange island.
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>welsh is a related language to gaelic, i thought
17:03<bruce89>Welsh is 50 times less nice
17:03<bruce89>they are opposite Gaelic types
17:09<@peter1138>Only the Welsh would make w a vowel...
17:25<Sacro>heh
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17:49<dih>phoebe hates pbs :-D
17:49<dih>i never knew, but she hates it :-D
17:50<@peter1138>Hmm?
17:51<Progman>who?
17:51<FauxFaux>I hate pbs, too, makes junction design no fun.
17:51<Progman>lazy junctions ftw...
17:51<FauxFaux>I hope there's a patch to disable it. :)
17:52<@peter1138>Nope.
17:52<@peter1138>Don't want it? Don't use it.
17:52<Progman>"You cannot build this track. \n This tile will result in a lazy junction"
17:53<FauxFaux>I was thinking of multiplayer.
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>oh i remember my beginner games, where i built 4x4 junctions with every possible trackbit :p
17:54<@peter1138>:o
17:54<Progman>they were awesome ;)
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18:34<fjb>I hate it when the ECS industries are closing down even when there is a vehicle always waiting.
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18:52<Progman>you can change this behavier with parameters
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>I hate [...] the ECS industries [...]
19:00<Sacro>arrgh
19:00*Sacro kicks OpenTTD
19:00<Sacro>STOP
19:00<Sacro>LOOKING
19:00<Sacro>IN
19:00<Sacro>MY
19:00<Sacro>DOCUMENTS ><
19:00<Sacro>sigh
19:00<Sacro>@seen Celestar
19:00<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 53 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Celestar> I'm off a bit
19:00<Sacro>can someone compile CargoDest win32 please :)
19:01<Progman>already done
19:01<Sacro>link?
19:01<Progman>http://binaries.openttd.org/custom/cargodest-af0fc47a/openttd-cargodest-af0fc47a-windows-win32.zip
19:01<Sacro>:o
19:01<Sacro>i don't recognise that subdomain
19:02<TrueBrain>or rather: http://binaries.openttd.org/custom/cargodest-af0fc47a/
19:02<Sacro>that's a lot
19:02<TrueBrain>a test-build of the new compile-farm
19:03<fjb>I don't want the industries never closing down, I don't want well serviced industries to close down.
19:03<Sacro>Plane speed factor arrows go the wrong way D:
19:03<Sacro>right arrow decreases it
19:04<Sacro>this is not good
19:04<Progman>fjb: then change the parameters
19:05<fjb>The parameters are only disabling closing down at all. I don't want every generated industry to stay forever.
19:05<Sacro>also we need a better grf selection thingy
19:06<Sacro>i add 3 then i get bored
19:06<Sacro>and then go play something else
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19:18<Ammler>good night ottdler
19:18<TrueBrain>night Ammler
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19:47<DaleStan>Whoever has pastebin admin might want to do some spam cleaning. Bunchnum of spam pastes appeared a minute or two ago.
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19:48<TrueBrain>DaleStan: the 'spam' solution of 'pastebin' isn't released .. so we just deal with it
19:49<DaleStan>Oh. Well then, I won't bother you with that again.
19:49<TrueBrain>I wish the pastebin owner would release his spam-fix solution ..
19:50<TrueBrain>DaleStan: on the positive side, it is on my big list of things to do: write our own (spamfree) pastebin
19:51<TrueBrain>(well, it is down to the top3 currently in fact)
19:51<SmatZ_>who cares about spam in pastebin... it takes only little disk space, and nobody posts links to those spams here...
19:51<TrueBrain>SmatZ_: it starts to become VERY annoying :p
19:52<SmatZ_>hehe
19:52<TrueBrain>I mean ... we are down to 65000 :p
19:52<SmatZ_>when spambots start posting at IRC, like
19:52<SmatZ_>I have a problem, can you help me? http://paste.openttd.org/65116
19:52<TrueBrain>8 days ago it was 55000 :p
19:52<SmatZ_>yeah :)
19:52<SmatZ_>it was < 1000 for very long time
19:53<TrueBrain>exactly :p
19:56<bruce89>could always disable the "forever" thing
19:57<TrueBrain>well, the new solution will take care of that :)
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 27 00:00:17 2008