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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-30

---Logopened Sat Aug 30 00:01:16 2008
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00:47<Tekky>hi Wombly. I'm going to bed now, good night :) It is 7 AM here in Germany :)
00:47<Wombly>I'm playing on a trains only server, and someone was able to build an airport (no planes though), my airport button is greyed out... how is it possible?
00:47<Wombly>hi Tekky
00:47<Tekky>I've stayed up the whole night :)
00:47<Wombly>it happens to me often playing openttd
00:48<Wombly>have a good sleep
00:48<Tekky>thanks :) Unfortunately, I have never played a multiplayer game before, so I cannot help you.
00:49<Wombly>ok :)
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00:55<Jerimiah40>Wombly - You'd probably have to try to get in touch with the server owner
01:01<Wombly>it's not a big deal, just wondering how it could happen that an airport can be built when planes are disabled.
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01:34<Forked>no route found! hit me again.. lets see if I can reproduce this time
01:40<Forked>managed to reproduce it
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02:12<@Rubidium>Wombly: you can configure the GUI to not grey them out and then it's your own problem when you build something that you can't use
02:14*Forked scratches head
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02:16<roboboy>do we have logs for this channel?
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02:24<Forked>I assumed cargodest bugs should be posted in thread on forum, or does it have its own area on flyspray? and why am I asking before I check?
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02:39<roboboy>I think I read they go on the wiki
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02:47<Wombly>Rubidium, do you know what the command/patch is to have them not be grayed out? I lookd for it on the wiki and couldn't find it.
02:48<Pikka>!seen Ammler
02:49<Pikka>no patchbot in hear!
02:49<Pikka>here either
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04:00<@Rubidium>Pikka: s/!/@/ might help with talking to the bot
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04:07<Pikka>I see... :O
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04:10<Eddi|zuHause><Belugas> so instead, i'll run the creations each day, but in smaller numbers <- how about handling it in the tileloop? it is automatically scaled to map size
04:14<Wolf01>Pikka, how do I increase production of your industries? They are always at 72t-90t (coal, iron ore etc) and when the resources are depleted they produce 6t-18t for ages, I have one which says 1090% of an estimated 3k tonnes transported :|
04:17<Pikka>well, the whole point is that they won't increase once they get up around 100%, because the economically exploitable resources are all used up
04:18<Pikka>before that though, they should be as variable as the defaults, with higher production possible
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04:21<@peter1138>Estimated 3k tonnes? :D
04:21<Wolf01>I take at least 20 years with 75-80% of transported production and the same percentual of ratings on the station to raise the production of an industry... after 20 years of 50t productions I find the industries producing 200-400t
04:22<Wolf01>but this doesn't work with estimated resources, because they will be depleted in 5 years
04:22<Pikka>3k is an unusually low estimate though :P
04:22<Wolf01>if the production is high enough
04:23<Wolf01>all the industries I fund have low estimate, 3-18k tonnes
04:23<Wolf01>Industries placed in map generation have 1000 times higher
04:23<Wolf01>3000k-90000k tonnes
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound right...
04:25<Pikka>I just tried funding a whole bunch of mines and many of them have high estimates...
04:26<Pikka>don't you bug me sunshine!
04:26<Wolf01>that depleted my bank balance too, because every year I need to fund new resources because they deplete the estimated, luckily I'm playing on big maps and I can rely on planes to transport passengers
04:26<Pikka>(ps: wagon retirement, peter1138 :P)
04:27<@peter1138>Oh yes, NARS2 needs that.
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>my mines typically hav between 50k and 200k tonnes estimate
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04:28<Eddi|zuHause>the clay pits a little lower
04:29<Wolf01>I have a lot of clay pits :P
04:29<Wolf01>all with the lowest estimate possible
04:30<Pikka>which is?
04:31<Wolf01>I have 2 with 3 and 10k tonnes
04:31<Wolf01>now I was able to fund another one and it have 24k
04:31<Wolf01>and it produces 154t at month
04:33<Wolf01>ok, it dropped first to 72 and now is 64... fast forward of 4 months
04:36<Wolf01>funded another one, 17k
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04:37<Wolf01>I need to go away
04:43<Pikka>what build of ottd are you using, Wolf01?
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04:54<Wolf01>Pikka, yesterday's nightly
04:56<Pikka>hmm, well I dunno then!
05:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14188 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: [NewGRF] Cargo type of 0xFF is specified to be 'use first refittable cargo', so don't issue a warning for it.
05:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14189 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r14188): Accidental line removal
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05:05<murray>sorry, i guess you've been asked this alot but
05:06<murray>when you build a station near, say, a forest
05:06<murray>does it matter how much you cover? one square? or all?
05:06<Pikka>it doesn't matter
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05:06<murray>ok thanks :)
05:06<murray>but in cities it matter?
05:06<murray>per house
05:07<murray>ok :)
05:07<Wolf01>it matter in cities and with some industries like the refinery
05:07<murray>refinery? for when collecting goods?
05:07<Pikka>no, it doesn't matter...
05:07<Wolf01>not all tiles accept/produce the cargo
05:07<Pikka>except for that :)
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05:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14190 /trunk/src/spriteloader/grf.cpp: -Codechange: use alloc instead of malloc+free when the allocated memory shouldn't be used after the function ended.
05:44<Forked>peter1138: where do you want cargodest bugreports? wiki felt like the wrong place and I didn't see a category on flyspray (granted I might not have looked close enough :p)
05:45<@peter1138>They seem to be going to
05:46<Forked>ok can't see this one here, I'll stuff it in after I get some food
05:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14191 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp sprite.h spritecache.cpp):
05:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: unify the code to skip sprite payload (i.e. not the header).
05:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: sprite payload skipping wouldn't skip enough bytes in a very small subset of compressed sprites.
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05:48<@peter1138>Heh... which GRFs does that fix?
05:48<@Rubidium>I'd have to search back in the logs, but IIRC it's only one
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05:54<@Rubidium>peter1138: can't find the name of the GRF, however... now skip sprite works like a) the spriteloader/grf.cpp and b)
05:56<@peter1138>I believe you ;)
05:59<@peter1138>Hmm, lifelength is a bit meaningless for wagons :o
06:00<@peter1138>What is?
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06:01<Pikka|afk>what is "lifelength", peter?
06:01-!-Pikka|afk is now known as Pikka
06:03<@peter1138>property 03
06:03<@peter1138>At least, it's 20 for your wagons.
06:03<@peter1138>property 04 i guess would be better
06:04<Pikka>oh, yes
06:04<Pikka>property 04 is what I want implementing :)
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06:04<Pikka>ie, remove the vehicle from the purchase list when that expires
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06:07<@peter1138>Life: 255 years :o
06:07<@peter1138>Maybe don't show life... hehe
06:07<@peter1138>What does Mr. TTDPatch show?
06:15<Brianetta>I'm in two minds about engine expiry.
06:15<Brianetta>On the one hand, progression is nice
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06:15<Brianetta>and having to stockpile a fleet of stock for when it becomes unavailable is a nice touch
06:16<Brianetta>but on the other hand, old locomotives only stop being available because people stop buying them
06:16<Brianetta>if railway companies kept ordering steam locos, we'd still be seeing new ones today
06:16<Brianetta>and it's nice to play what-if and to change the course of history
06:18<Wolf01>steam maglev locomotive!
06:18<Pikka>woo woo?
06:18*Brianetta suspects that the same, in TTDPatch, is a steam loco with rubber tyres running int he concrete trough like a Paris Metro
06:19<Wolf01>wait! I have a picture of a rail engine on rubber tyres
06:20<Brianetta>I'm sure that's work in a concrete maglev trough without damaging it too badly
06:22-!-Pikka is now known as Pikka|afk
06:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14192 /trunk/src/timetable_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2236]: properly update the current timetable's travel/wait times instead of only doing it for one vehicle in the shared order chain and only when some bit has not been set (PhilSophus)
06:27<Brianetta>New track type to add to the list (:
06:29<Brianetta>High TE
06:30<Brianetta>good acceleration and decelleration, quiet
06:30<Brianetta>Costs more to run, though
06:30<Brianetta>overcoming the rolling resistance
06:30<@peter1138>That's a problem for TTD then.
06:30<Brianetta>Not suitable above the snowline
06:30<@peter1138>TE doesn't make a lot of difference.
06:31<Brianetta>Well, it's *there*
06:31<Brianetta>They can stop like a truck
06:31<@peter1138>I'm sure my trains accelerate too fast.
06:31<Brianetta>You're not giving them enough wagons (:
06:32<Brianetta>My tank engines take about 50 tiles to get up to decent speed with a full rake of coal
06:32<Brianetta>more like 100 on the flat if they're to reach maximum
06:32<Brianetta>Of course, a slope helps
06:32<Brianetta>so I like to build stations on a little ramp
06:32<Wolf01>oh, finally found it!
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>haha! :p
06:33<@peter1138>Yeah, it's the 0-30mph acceleration I'm thinking of.
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>and how do you go up slopes?
06:36<Brianetta>Wolf01: That's a truly awesome vehicle
06:36<Brianetta>I want one
06:36<Brianetta>What is it?
06:36<Brianetta>Where can I learn more?
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's a russian V200 i think
06:38<Brianetta>UNIMOG U-400 is a fabulous shunter
06:38<Brianetta>Somebody should newgrf that, have it available as a loco and a road vehicle (:
06:39<Brianetta>Somebody not me, natch
06:39<Brianetta>I don't care *that* much
06:39<@peter1138>European railways use it? What, all of them?
06:40<Brianetta>Perhaps it's some small operator
06:40<Brianetta>called that
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>what? where? who?
06:41<Brianetta>RGS No. 2 Spruce Goose
06:41<Brianetta>Mail van with snow plough
06:41<Brianetta>Eddi: Check out Wolf01's link
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06:43<Brianetta>Oh, the Mini is beautiful
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06:43<@peter1138>rail mini! :D
06:44<Brianetta>The Polish back-to-back one reeks of home made class
06:44<Brianetta>including the board with the red tail lights on the radiator
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06:45<Gekz>rail car
06:45<Gekz>thats crazy
06:45<Brianetta>Useful for inspection work, or shuttling workers to/from a work site on a long posession
06:47<Brianetta>more on
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06:48<frosch123>moin :)
06:48<Wolf01> is that a snowplow or a house?
06:48<Wolf01>(the red thing)
06:49<fjb>Quak frosch123
06:49<Wolf01>hi fjb
06:49<davis->thanks Brianetta :D
06:50<fjb>Wolf01: You have to live somewhere when you get stuck in the snow. :-)
06:50<davis->railcars look like fun
06:50<Brianetta>You'd never get the permission in the UK
06:51<Brianetta>You'd even have trouble getting a private coach attached to a freight consist
06:51<@peter1138> Hehe
06:51<fjb>No permission for getting stuck in the snow?
06:51<Brianetta>although that's a personal dream of mine
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06:53<davis->i wonder how a farari on rails would do
06:53<Brianetta>I think it'd either work really well or be a catastrophe. No middle ground.
06:53<davis->cant spell
06:53<fjb>I have another question about the size of the rail vehicles. The 32px x 8px x 12px limit is for the / and \ view, right? What are the limits for the - and | view?
06:54<Wolf01> uhm, peter1138, why not implement this on ottd?
06:56<davis->good for looking up skirts
06:56<Brianetta>Buy that at the end of the game, and you get to use it near the beginning.
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: MB had some template graphics where you can fit in the wagons
06:58<fjb>I will search the forum.
06:59<fjb>Hm, is the 32bit blitter much slower? My games feels kind of "jumpy".
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07:08<fjb>The game becomes unplayable slow with the 32bpp blitter.
07:09<fjb>Is that a problem of memory bandwidth?
07:09<fjb>Hi Vikthor
07:09<yorick>try the 32bpp-optim blitter
07:09<yorick>and increase sprite_cache_size
07:09*Vikthor is back from Greece
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07:12<fjb>I tried the optimized blitter.
07:12<fjb>Where do I increase sprite_cache_size?
07:12<frosch123>"sprite_cache_size = 64" is a must
07:13<frosch123>[misc] section of openttd.cfg
07:13<fjb>Found it.
07:14<fjb>Is that MB?
07:14<Forked>meep meep
07:14<fjb>Then I will give it 128.
07:14<@peter1138>64 is the max I think.
07:16<@peter1138>The original was 1MB, so 4MB should be enough for anyone ;)
07:16<fjb>64 is maximum. It reduces every highter value to 64.
07:17<frosch123>iirc 32bpp needs factor 5 more memory
07:17<fjb>But that is too few. The vehicles still "jump" around and scolling is a pain.
07:18<fjb>But it is way better than with 4MB.
07:18<yorick>fjb: disable animation!
07:18<fjb>I used the optimized blitter.
07:18<fjb>Or animation at all? :-)
07:18<Gekz>anyone wanna play freeciv?
07:18<Gekz>you aren't anyone
07:18<Gekz>you're no-one
07:18<Gekz>go cut yourself.
07:19<fjb>But I am someone. Is that not enough for you?
07:19<yorick>try disable animation at all
07:19<fjb>A headless 32bpp game. :-)
07:19*yorick cuts Gekz in 2.
07:20<yorick>what did you think, bytes?
07:20<Gekz>now I'm just 1
07:20<fjb>I'm having a memory bottleneck at my PC, or is the 32bpp blitter always that slow?
07:20<yorick>I think it is
07:21<yorick>but possibly you have a harddisk readspeed bottleneck
07:21<frosch123>it is not that slow as you descibe (at least for me)
07:21<yorick>or you're just having too much sprites
07:22<fjb>Big town. But this is my spare computer. I had the feeling that it has some trouble wile playing NWN some days ago. There it also was kind of "jumpy" even with reduced graphic effects.
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07:23<frosch123>what is your zoom level?
07:23<fjb>I don't think that diskio is the problem, not much discio happening.
07:23<yorick>there should...
07:23<yorick>loading the sprites should take quite some diskio
07:24<fjb>Tryied standard view and one level zoomed out.
07:24<yorick>maybe you're just having too much sprites
07:25<fjb>Something is strange with this PC. Maybe it is the cheap sis chip set.
07:25<@peter1138>I have no performance problem with 32bpp.
07:26<Eddi|zuHause><yorick> loading the sprites should take quite some diskio <- there is a spritecache for that...
07:26<fjb>I encountered some Problems with also NWN.
07:26<yorick>Eddi: you got quite a good spritecache if it doesn't need to cache things first
07:27<fjb>The mainboard of my usual PC died. So I'm stuck with this one, got it used.
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>hm... big problem... how do i port my savegame from the old timetabling patch to the new one?
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: easiest way to check if 32bpp is the issue: turn off 32bpp
07:27<@peter1138>yorick, loading the sprites takes hardly effort.
07:28<@peter1138>It would be noticable if it happened all the time, however.
07:28<fjb>It is a Pentium 4 with 2,6GHz, 512MB RAM, and 8x AGP. Should be really fast enough.
07:28<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: It runs smoot with the 8bpp blitter.
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07:28<fjb>Discio is at a minimum after loading the game.
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>feature request: a german town name generator that can generate ~5000 names
07:32<fjb>Lets have a look at eBay for a new mainboard. ASUS is not too confident about replacing my mainboard.
07:33<fjb>Is there town name generator more than a list with town name parts?
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07:47<Pikka|afk>ho hum...
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07:49<@peter1138>Yes, indeed.
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08:00*Rubidium likes peter1138's 32bpp screenshot
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08:04<@peter1138>See, 0.6.0 has been out *ages* and there's still no coherent 32bpp set...
08:05<@Rubidium>same could be said for the open 8bits graphics
08:06<@peter1138>See, TTDPatch has been out *ages* and there's still no coherent 8bpp set...
08:06<@peter1138>*replacement* set :o
08:08<Rexxars>I'm getting a strange "TRGT.GRF file is corrupted or missing!" error on starting up the nightly, and some of the newgrf graphics are sort of distorted, is this a problem on my side, or is there an issue in the latest nightly?
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08:09<@Rubidium>Rexxars: I reckon you've got both the Windows and DOS graphics
08:09<Pikka>yebbut where's Ammler? I want to know what he was complaining about with NARS the other night...
08:10<@Rubidium>*original TTD graphics that is
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08:10<Rexxars>has there been any changes in those areas of code lately? cause it worked fine on older nightlies
08:10<@Rubidium>and now it "chooses" randomly between the DOS/Windows graphics based on how many of the files you've got
08:11<@Rubidium>and apparantly DOS not gets a higher priority for you
08:11<@Rubidium>which is technically okay by me cause it has more colours
08:11<@peter1138>Just causes a few problems for network place ;)
08:12<@Rubidium>peter1138: nothing that wouldn't have happened before
08:12<Rexxars>hmm.. can you play with windows grfs and dos original source files?
08:12<@peter1138>Rubidium, indeed.
08:12<@peter1138>Original source files?
08:12<Rexxars>er.. the dos TTD graphics
08:13<@Rubidium>well... you can play with both dos and windows grfs, but not at the same time
08:14<Rexxars>the link to the readme on the download page is broken btw
08:14<@peter1138>How is handled?
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08:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14193 /trunk/src/spritecache.cpp: -Fix (r14191): don't put an unsigned 0x80 in a signed int8 as that's not what you want.
08:15<@Rubidium>peter1138: it takes whatever it pleases; doesn't care about dos or windows
08:16<@peter1138>Your 'TRGT.GRF' file is corrupted or missing! You can find it on your Transport Tycoon Deluxe CD-ROM.
08:16<@peter1138>Just, er, found the files...
08:16<@Rubidium>yup... there's a corrupt set of graphics roaming the internets
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08:19-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
08:19<fjb>Hm, I reduced the AGP apperture zize from 128MB (size of graphics memory) to 64MB (the factory setting of this PC). Now it is a bit faster.
08:19<Sacro>AGP aperture should be 2x graphics RAM
08:19<@Rubidium>Rexxars: readme works (now)
08:19<Rexxars>thanks :)
08:19<Sacro>fjb: should be 256
08:19<fjb>Sacro: Why?
08:20<Rexxars>the nightlies page is sorta broken, but I suppose you knew about that already, heh
08:20<Sacro>fjb: should be double GPU ram
08:20<@Rubidium>Rexxars: READ that page...
08:21<Rexxars>why not remove that though, heh
08:21<fjb>Sacro: Why? You can not access RAM that is not there anyway.
08:21<@Rubidium>Rexxars: too much effort
08:24<@peter1138>So who 'gives out' the correct versions, if Owen's are wrong?
08:25<fjb>I need a vehice usage graph, showing on which lines a vehicle is almost full and on which more on the empty side...
08:25<fjb>peter1138: Maybe the people of the german forum.
08:25<Rexxars>owens windows ttd package worked fine for me
08:26<@peter1138>Rexxars, Windows does, yes.
08:26<Rexxars>ah :)
08:26<@peter1138>fjb, I don't speak German.
08:26<fjb>peter1138: You will find a linkt named "download" there. :-)
08:27<fjb>The german forum ist hosted here:
08:28<fjb>You will find the rest even if you are only speaking English.
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08:35<@Rubidium>peter1138: unless the md5checksum of openttd is wrong/different for some reason
08:40<@Rubidium>I don't have a TTD DOS CD, so I can't check the md5sum of the file on the actual CD
08:43<@Rubidium>some googling gave me more archives with the "wrong" md5 than the "right" one (wrong/right according OpenTTD's source that is)
08:44<Wolf01>I have it
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08:46<Boyinblue0>how can i promote town growth?
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08:47<Forked>active stations and fund new buildings .. also build roads for them
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08:48<Boyinblue0>kk ty =]=]
08:48<@Rubidium>Wolf01: what's the MD5 checksum of TRGT.GRF?
08:48<Boyinblue0>any specific pattern of roads needed for better growth?
08:49<Forked>I use 2x2 and 3x2 blocks with road around
08:49<Forked>I have no idea if that is the best, but I think most houses prefer to have road on at least one side of their building
08:50<Wolf01>if you want I can send it to you, I don't know how to calculate the md5 :P
08:50<+glx>md5sum file
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08:51<dragonhorseboy>any of you in here know about the super power steam era in north america?
08:51<Wolf01>glx, not on windows :)
08:51<+glx>on windows
08:51<+glx>with mingw/msys
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08:52<Alberth>Rubidium: fcde1d7e8a74197d72a62695884b909e TRGT.GRF
08:53<@Rubidium>Alberth: from the original CD?
08:53<@Rubidium>i.e. not some zip/iso downloaded from anywhere
08:53<+glx>e30e8a398ae86c03dc534a8ac7dfb3b6 *TRGT.GRF
08:53<Alberth>yep, possibly a re-print (if CD's get reprinted:) )
08:54<frosch123>I just compared the trgt.grf with those two md5 sums
08:54<Wolf01>fcde1d7e8a74197d72a62695884b909e *TRGT.GRF
08:54<frosch123>they only differ in a single sprite 674
08:54<frosch123>it shows that e30e8a398ae86c03dc534a8ac7dfb3b6 is a bug fix for fcde1d7e8a74197d72a62695884b909e
08:55<Alberth>that is some vehicle?
08:55<frosch123>i guess it is the sugar truck
08:55<frosch123>not sure though
08:55<@Rubidium>so both are correct, but e30e* is more correct?
08:55<frosch123>in fcde1d7e8a74197d72a62695884b909e is incorrectly clipped
08:55<Alberth>that makes sense, I once saw a truck with some shifted graphics
08:56<dragonhorseboy>thing I was wondering about was what alco must have called their unique 3-cylinder design
08:56<dragonhorseboy>can't remember whichever train books it was in at all here
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08:57<Pikka>what unique 3 cylinder design, dragonhorseboy?
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09:01<dragonhorseboy>pikka the third cylinder was in middle .. Alco sold a good number of these ... hard to work on than the typical 2-cylinder but with the sudden depression (30's yeah) railroads just had to stuck to them and at least found them pretty good runners
09:01<dragonhorseboy>especially when they were bumped off mainline and turned into yard humpers ... good low speed traction
09:02<Pikka>nothing unique about that...
09:02<dragonhorseboy>yeah? hm well I maybe only know of north america alone
09:03<Pikka>even in north america they weren't completely outlandish
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09:06<dragonhorseboy>heh well true but then also I do know some railroad-specific power tho ... eg SP's cabforward, Pennsy.'s shortlived tries with their own duplex's (built just barely before diesels took over, expensive ops I guess?)
09:06<fjb>Hm... MD5 (/usr/local/share/games/openttd.dos/data/trgt.grf) = fcde1d7e8a74197d72a62695884b909e that is from an original CD.
09:06<fjb>Ah, then that is an old version?
09:07<@Rubidium>so 4 original CDs say fcde with clipped truck and the other with fixed clipping comes from somewhere "illegal"
09:08<dragonhorseboy>pikka didn't uk have just a few of one class of mallets for a while?
09:09<@peter1138>Rubidium, now just make it not load if the MD5SUM doesn't make :)
09:09<Pikka>I don't think so. certainly not the mainline railways. possibly a narrow gauge.
09:09<dragonhorseboy>yeah I only remember reading about them once .. seem they were a big large for their rails wise
09:10<Pikka>the LMS had a class of Garratts, which might be what you're thinking of
09:10<dragonhorseboy>hm yeah LMS does sound familiar
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09:13<dragonhorseboy>if there's one thing I don't think should had been built anyhow (even with modern tech now too perhaps) .. it was that Eric triplex ... I'm not so sure even 300psi with a large firebox would had been able to steam these at plausible mainline speeds
09:13<dragonhorseboy>Eirc got stuck using them as slow pushers till finally sent to scrap
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09:14<dragonhorseboy> here for your viewing if you want
09:15<dragonhorseboy>they were 210psi at the time
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09:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14194 /trunk/ ( projects/determineversion.vbs): -Fix: don't use hardcoded character offsets to get hg revision. This make it similar to svn and git (ie without the ':').
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09:21<Brianetta>powered tender (:
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09:28<Pikka>powdered tender!
09:29<@peter1138>So now that NARS2 uses the narrow gauge tracks as regular tracks...
09:30<@peter1138>We need someone to draw even narrower gauge :)
09:30<Pikka>no we don't :P
09:31<hylje>soon we will have monorail
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09:36<dragonhorseboy>another railroad also had some triplex's for pusher service (able to keep tender almost full all times) but rather than scrap they just rebuilt them with standard tenders (turning them into normal mallets)
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09:41<dragonhorseboy>hylje..monorails? doesn't that already exist? ;)
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09:44<@peter1138>Hmm, it's slow in 1830 ;)
09:44<@peter1138>And those carriages are dinky.
09:44<Pikka>I think you'd have to be mad to start before 1850, but dan insisted :P
09:48<dragonhorseboy>1890's for me :p
09:48<dragonhorseboy>heh... all these American's ;)
09:50<roboboy>im glad i started in 1950 with UKRS and cargodest
09:50<roboboy>1921 was hard enough
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09:55-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
09:55<dragonhorseboy>heh I always start in 1920's all the times with dbsetxl...steam at that stage with some electric mixs (high initial cost, figured) on longer lines finally later on
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10:05*roboboy wonders what the best way to upgrade his fleet of trains is and also add an extra set of the emus they are to be upgraded with when I get rid of my loan. I also want to add extra passenger wagons
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10:32<roboboy>do I have to register for flyspray to report a bug?
10:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14195 /branches/noai/ (71 files in 10 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14121:14194
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10:36<frosch123>roboboy: yes, so there is a way to notify you about questions wrt your report
10:45<roboboy>my cargodest game just crashed
10:46<frosch123>do you have a savegame that reproducible crashes after load?
10:47<roboboy>the emergency save crashes shortly after
10:48<roboboy>and the save I made shortly before also crashes
10:49<roboboy>I uploaded them both aswell as the other files the window says to
10:49<roboboy>im no dummie at reporting bugs as I am used to playing alpha versions of TTDP
10:52<roboboy>my game is over for now
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10:54<+glx>roboboy: does the crash.log tells something about the reason?
10:55<+glx>roboboy: it seems to be the crash reported on the forum
10:56<roboboy>i geuse reporting it twice isnt too bad
10:56<roboboy>Reason: Assertion failed at ..\src\cargopacket.cpp:324: this->CargoLeft() != NULL
10:57<Forked>hmm I think I saw that one reported in the wiki, sec
10:58<Forked>or maybe it wasn't there.. forum perhaps. sorry :)
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10:59<+glx>roboboy: using the build from
11:00<Gekz>why are people compelled to pm me
11:00<Gekz>SO ANNOYING
11:00<Forked>it was the forum, last page
11:00<Forked>Gekz: you look girly?
11:00<Gekz>at least spammers dont expect a reply
11:01<roboboy>glx yeah. wherever it is on that Ammler pointed me to
11:01<+glx>good I should be able to debug these builds ;)
11:02<roboboy>im off to bed soon
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11:07<+glx>roboboy: yes it's the same bug, crash happened when replacing
11:08<roboboy>so it was just that I had autoreplace setup
11:08<roboboy>and I was not watching it
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11:09<+glx>anyway it's a valid bug :)
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11:12<roboboy>so shall I disable autoreplace for now and live with slow trains?
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11:15<Forked>could change their orders so they come to the depot unloaded maybe
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12:03<extspotter>how are you, fauxfaux?
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12:54*insulfrog says hi to everyone
12:55*SpComb ponders upon the state of the world
12:59*insulfrog is pondering whether he should play TTDP or OTTD
13:05<fjb>Is it somehow to set the path to the data directory on the command line?
13:06<insulfrog>in other words, change directory using sommand prompt?
13:07<insulfrog>if so its CD C:\(your directory)
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13:07<insulfrog>(oe what whatever directory you want
13:07<fjb>No, I mean the path to the directory where OpenTTD searches for the GRFs.
13:08<fjb>And no C:\ here anyway.
13:08<insulfrog>not without changing the source code
13:08<insulfrog>(as far as I know)
13:08<SpComb>I think it's a compile-time option
13:09<SpComb>./configure --data-dir=...
13:10<fjb>Yes, I know about the compile time option. The question was if there is a runtime option. I didn't find any, so I asked.
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13:20<+glx>there's no runtime option
13:23<fjb>Thank you.
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13:52<fjb>FreeBSD uses gcc but has no strndup().
13:53<+glx>does it define _GNU_SOURCE ?
13:53<+glx>strndup is a GNU extension
13:53<+glx>and it depends on _GNU_SOURCE
13:54<fjb>I just removed the test for _GNU_SOURCE and it compiled and linked. Complained about missing strndup() before.
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13:54<fjb>Hm, strange.
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13:55<fjb>A test for FreeBSD would be needed there. Don't know about the other BSDs or Solaris.
13:56<+glx>what is in CFLAGS ?
13:59<fjb>Nothing, not set. Or I didn't find it. Wehre do I have to look for it? CFLAGS was not set in the environment nor in the Makefile in the toplevel directory.
14:00<+glx>in objs/[Debug|Release]/Makefile
14:00<fjb>Ah, I looked into src/
14:01<insulfrog>well, i g2g, cya :)
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14:01<fjb>CFLAGS = -O2 -fomit-frame-pointer -DFREEBSD -Wall -Wno-multichar -Wsign-compare -Wundef -Wwrite-strings -Wpointer-arith -Wno-uninitialized -W -Wno-unused-parameter -Wformat=2 -Wredundant-decls -DUNIX -DWITH_SDL -I/usr/local/include/SDL -I/usr/local/include -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -DWITH_ZLIB -I/home/frank/devel/OpenTTD-r14195noaicd/src/3rdparty/squirrel/include -DNO_GARBAGE_COLLECTOR -DWITH_PNG -I/usr/local/include/libpng
14:01<fjb>-DWITH_FONTCONFIG -I/usr/local/include -DWITH_FREETYPE -I/usr/local/include/freetype2 -I/usr/local/include -DENABLE_NETWORK -DWITH_PERSONAL_DIR -DPERSONAL_DIR=\".openttd\" -DGLOBAL_DATA_DIR=\"/usr/local/share/games/openttd\"
14:02<+glx>ok svn is guilty again
14:02<+glx>what is the output of sdl-config --cflags ?
14:02<fjb>-I/usr/local/include/SDL -I/usr/local/include -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT
14:03<+glx>sdl defines _GNU_SOURCE
14:03<@peter1138>glx, you mean SDL is guilty, not svn.
14:03<+glx>ha right :)
14:03<fjb>Ah, so BSD does not but SDL does. :-(
14:03<+glx>I mistyped
14:04<+glx>yes sdl does the same for windows
14:04<fjb>Bad SDL.
14:04<@peter1138>When do get a native X11 driver? ;)
14:04<fjb>So it will do that on any system, wether it has the GNU extensions or not.
14:05<@peter1138>Not on OS X, or with MS VC.
14:06<+glx>can you remove -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 in the makefile and see if it works ?
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14:11<fjb>I'm doing a clean checkout from trunk first.
14:14-!-spion-- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:20<fjb>It compiles and links when I remove D_GNU_SOURCE=1 from the makefile.
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14:49<Milloflex>is it possible to close the active window in ttd with a keyboard shortcut?
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15:00<@peter1138>No, because there is no concept of active window.
15:00<@peter1138>You can close all windows with delete, however.
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15:10<Milloflex>active window = the one you did your last action in? ;-)
15:10<Milloflex>thanks for the delete suggestion
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15:54<fjb>I'm just reading the palette discussion in the forum and the palette diff that MB posted. I'm convinced now that a 32bpp blitter is a great invention.
15:56<SmatZ>@seen Digitalfox
15:56<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Digitalfox was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 0 hours, 23 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Digitalfox> How are you Belugas ?
15:56<SmatZ>@tell Digitalfox it was just a sync, sorry :-/
15:56<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Error: I haven't seen Digitalfox, I'll let you do the telling.
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16:03<fjb>Hi extflyer
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16:29<Milloflex>even if i make a train 'non-stop' it stops at the station. is that correct?
16:31<@Rubidium>Milloflex: what version do you have?
16:36<@peter1138>non-stop means 'don't stop at any station en route to this one'
16:37<@peter1138>Unless you turn on that ttdpatch compatible thing, in which case all logic fails and the universe might as well self-destruct.
16:37<@Rubidium>in 0.6.2 then the meaning of that flag depends on the "station->ttdpatch compatible non-stop handling" patch setting
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16:38<@Rubidium>which makes non-stop mean that it won't stop at the listed station instead of the not listed stations
16:38<Milloflex>oh ok
16:39<davis->i hear openttd sounds without running openttd *scared*
16:40*fjb often tried to hit F1 in the irc window.
16:41<fjb>But I also saw NWN cicular menu around a doorknob.
16:42<@peter1138>I once tried walking through a walk, after, er, playing Doom for a long time.
16:43<@peter1138>idspispopd :D
16:43<Jerimiah40>Does anyone have any idea why a train would be constantly trying to get serviced?
16:44<fjb>peter1138: That may explain some things...
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17:04<fjb>Trains are kind of "flat" in the TTD world...
17:06<fjb>Or is Purno's tutoial wrong here? It says 7px bit height for train cars, maximum 8px. But the catenary is at 12px? Or is the topmost part of the catenary at 12px?
17:08<frosch123>Jerimiah40: maybe
17:08<@peter1138>fjb, I think that's ignoring the roof.
17:09<fjb>Ah, the width of the roof gets added to the height of the side.
17:10<frosch123>8px is the height of foundations
17:10<Jerimiah40>frosch - it was similar to that. I didn't realize that in the game I joined, we were using electric trains
17:10<frosch123>low bridges are sometimes even lower
17:10<Jerimiah40>so all the diesel trains that I built were trying to autoreplace at non electrified depots
17:11<fjb>I noticed glitches with some bridges.
17:11<fjb>I'm not good at painting...
17:12<frosch123>"with diagonal tracks", "original tubular bridge", "bridge over bridgehead" are known glitches
17:13<frosch123>something different, does anyone know what the railway dictionary is heading for?
17:14<frosch123>most entries are not related to newgrfs at all
17:16<Milloflex>is transport company ratings the same things that triggers "city refuse to allow building a xxx station here"?
17:17<Milloflex>err. the thing that triggers**
17:17<frosch123> "city refuse to allow building a xxx station here" <- that depends on the rating you can see in the town window
17:21<fjb>Don't know what the dictionary tries to achive. I looked at it and found it not that useful.
17:22<fjb>Ok, it maybe become a bit more useful than the star discussion in german forum.
17:22<frosch123>they are consuming 10 of the 20 lines in "recent changes"
17:23<frosch123>the star discussion is as useful as every off-topic topic
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17:24<fjb>I wanted to vote for the most unusual numer of stars, but my password is no longer valid.
17:25<fjb>The dictionary has a high activity because it is a new project and got advertized.
17:25<Milloflex>frosch123, and the rating you are talking about is 'transport company rating'?
17:26<frosch123>if you want to know the exact name, i would have to start ottd, but it is _not_ the rating in the station window
17:26<frosch123>nor the highscore
17:26<Milloflex>no np
17:26<Milloflex>so if i have a town that i transport to/from much, it will basicly allow me to change more of the city without them getting 'mad'?
17:27<Jerimiah40>Milloflex - The rating you're looking for is the one provided by the local authority
17:27<Jerimiah40>you can see that by clicking on the name of the city/town in question
17:27<Jerimiah40>easiest way to raise it is to build trees in the area around the city, imo
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17:47<Milloflex>oh. ok
17:52<Jerimiah40>Sometimes you can 'bribe' them, but they'll sometimes catch on and then they'll like you even less
17:52<Jerimiah40>and it costs a ton of money
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17:54<Eddi|zuHause>hm... looks like i had a power failure while i was gone...
18:01<fjb>Your power?
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18:19<fjb>Now we will never lern to know him...
18:20<Prof_Frink>fjb: Yes, but he's a known unknown.
18:20<fjb>Hm, I have to think about that.
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18:26<fjb>Hah, MB is cheating! His pantographs are taller then 12px.
18:27<Prof_Frink>MB has big pance.
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18:59<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: how is that cheating? pantographs MUST be higher than the standard loading gauge
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19:00<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: if you are talking about the perspective, the MIDDLE of the pantograph must be at 12px
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>not even that... the front, as the catenary height is counted from the middle of the track, but the engine is drawn from the front of the track
19:04<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: not always
19:10<roboboy>where do I get binarys for branches?
19:11<Sacro>roboboy: the internet!
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19:12<Eddi|zuHause>by substituting * with binaries in the topic, possibly
19:14<roboboy>binaries for say cargodest
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>that's not even a branch :p
19:15<roboboy>Ammler: pointed me to the location on friday and ive forgotten where
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>but yes, there should be binaries somewhere
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>that's what !logs are for ;)
19:15<roboboy>I got my terms wrong then
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>case sensitivy ftl
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19:57<Brianetta>Standard Server started. Now contains newgrf stations.
19:57<Sacro_>Brianetta: and added calcium?
19:58<Brianetta>added nothing
19:58<Brianetta>remember, we're dieting
19:59<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: It looks like the pantographs are highter than the catenary.
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20:00<Brianetta>This looks pretty now (:
20:03<Brianetta><>: host[] said: 550
20:03<Brianetta> Unrouteable address (in reply to RCPT TO command)
20:03<Brianetta>This is a page from the autopilot controlling your OpenTTD server.
20:03<Brianetta>Sacro: Sort that out...
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20:09<fjb>Brianetta: Your house rules are some of the most reasonable I have ever read.
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20:14<Brianetta>fjb: Thanks (:
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20:47<eekee>hi all, I just had the wierdest crash with advanced signals
20:48<fjb>How did you do that?
20:48<eekee>are trains supposed to be able to pass advanced signals facing away from their direction of travel?
20:49<eekee>ahh that's it then
20:50<fjb>How should the driver obey a signal he doesn't see?
20:50<eekee>well that's a sensible thought, but I was relying on them behaving as ordinary signals in that matter
20:51<eekee>(ordinary ttd signals)
20:51<fjb>There are advanced signals with a yellow bar. The bar prevents trains from passing them from the backside.
20:52<eekee>ahh ok
20:52<eekee>I'll put those in then
20:54<fjb>But trains should not crash even when a signal is passed from behind. A crash can only happen if you force a train to enter that signal block or if you are reworking the signals where the trains are driving.
20:54<eekee>I did force it, because it was "waiting for free path" despite the normal route into it's station being free
20:55<fjb>At the first page of the patch options is an option to enable highlighting of the reserved tracks. That helps if you are new to advanced signals.
20:55<eekee>the normal route is a loop around the back of the station, with the exit from the station returning to the same junction
20:55<eekee>ahh ty
20:56<fjb>Enable that option. Then you can "debug" your layout. See which route a train wants to take.
20:57<fjb>Trains try to take the route with the least crossings and switshes.
20:57<eekee>I C
20:58<fjb>Do you know about real life railways? Advanced sinals are close to that. they are totally different from the old TTD singnals.
20:59<eekee>I don't know much about them at all
21:00<fjb>Oh. Just forget everything about TTD signals, then the advanced signals are really easy to understand.
21:01<eekee>oh :D
21:02<fjb>One rule is: Put signals only there where a waiting train would not block other trains.
21:02<eekee>they do seem so, since you pinted out about the yellow bar & hilighting reserved track.
21:02<fjb>Good. You will get used to them very quick.
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21:10<eekee>hmm. I changed a pre-signal signal to a different junction to one-way advanced, and a train went through it into another train that had already entered via a pre-signal
21:12<fjb>Hm, that sould not happen. But old signals and advanced signals don't mis that well.
21:14<fjb>Best is to have all signals at a crossing or switchyard old style or new style. I'm not using old style signals anymore.
21:14<fjb>Next question is if you are using trunk or one of the different patch packs.
21:16<eekee>trunk, r14144
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21:18<fjb>Ok. Advanced signals are broken in almost all patchpacks floating in the forum.
21:20<eekee>wow when they work they work. ^.^ They're making my junctions quite a bit more efficient
21:21<fjb>A lot more efficient. If you don't need special things like priority tricks with pre signals you should switch to advanced signals completeley.
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21:25<eekee>oh... I switched one junction over to all one-way advanced (from pre & exit) & now trains are sitting on the junction waiting for one particular platform rather than waiting before the junction for any platform.
21:26<eekee>wondering how I should set that up. It's entrance to a station, exit from the station is a different junction
21:27<fjb>Put the signals only in front of the junction, never behind a junktion.
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21:28<eekee>ahh ok. and pray the trains never spontaneuosly reverse? :)
21:28<fjb>line, signal, junction, platform, signal, junction, line, signal, line, signal, line etc.
21:29<fjb>set "wait_for_pbs_path = 255" in your openttd.cfg to prevent trains from reversing.
21:30<eekee>ahhh! ty
21:30<fjb>But that only prevents it in new games. You have to use the ingame console to switch that setting in the running game.
21:32<eekee>right.. oh I forgot to apply my patch for the console. no key to the left of 1 on this little machine. will have to recompile overnight
21:33<fjb>Ok. That will prevent trains waiting in front of an advanced signal from ever reversing. It will sit there waiting till your PC enters the recycling bin.
21:36<fjb>But locks are less common with advanved signals.
21:38<fjb>With parallel tracks trains prfer the track with advanced singnals looking in their direction over tracks with advanced signals showing their back side.
21:40<eekee>ah *nod*
21:44<fjb>This layout would hardly work without locks when using old style signals:
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21:51<eekee>wow ^.^;
21:53<fjb>A bit complicated...
21:54<+glx><eekee> right.. oh I forgot to apply my patch for the console. no key to the left of 1 on this little machine. will have to recompile overnight <-- there's a toggle in questionmark menu
21:58<eekee>glx: cheers
21:58<eekee>"Error: command or variable not found" o.O
21:59<+glx>type "patch wait_for" to get the 'right' name
22:00<eekee>oh lol ok
22:02<eekee>k that's set
22:06<eekee>my 10-exit junction looks too neat now. ^.^
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22:09<fjb>And no crashes anymore? :-)
22:12<fjb>That's good.
22:44<fjb>Good night.
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22:54<Jerimiah40>someone needs to write a patch to make openttd psychic
22:55<Jerimiah40>so like, if I forget to build a signal at one of my stations, the game will know that I meant to put one there, and do it for me so that the whole station doesn't get jammed up :P
22:57<Sacro>YAPP does that
22:57<Jerimiah40>is there anything that YAPP can't do?
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 31 00:00:27 2008