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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-09-03

---Logopened Wed Sep 03 00:00:20 2008
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01:06<roboboy>When I compile openTTD with vsc05 it never seems to get past determining version number
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02:17*roboboy returns
02:19*peter1138 gosubs
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02:32<roboboy>compiling in vsc05 never gets further than determining version and then the status returns to ready from build started
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03:19<fjb>Morning planetmaker.
03:23<planetmaker>cargodest test day :)
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03:34<Forked>gooood morning
03:34<TrueBrain>oh, it is him :p
03:36<@Rubidium>should we daemonize the fork?
03:37<TrueBrain>that at least puts him in the background
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03:41<Forked>oy :\
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03:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14233 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
03:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Feature/Fix [FS#2172]: save the palette of the loaded NewGRFs in the savegame,
03:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: so joining with a server using Windows palette will make a client with the DOS
03:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: palette do palette conversion and (thus) not cause a desync due to the different
03:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: palettes disabling different NewGRFs.
03:51<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: you around?
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03:55<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: yes?
03:56<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: you had that problem with two trains: one going A-B-C-D-E and another going F-B-D-G right?
03:57<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. but they were trams ;)
03:57<Celestar>doesn't matter.
03:57<Eddi|zuHause>of course ;)
03:57<Celestar>do you have such a savegame (preferably no other vehicles) and/or want to test a patch?
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03:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i still have that game, but it has lots of other vehicles
04:02<Eddi|zuHause>you can show me the patch, though ;)
04:08<Celestar>in a minite
04:08<Celestar>doing some preliminary test (=
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04:09<Celestar>I've already thought of a first route balancer (=
04:09<Forked>I was late for work again today..
04:09<Forked>expanding the service my company offers to a city called Kristiansand
04:09<Eddi|zuHause>Forked: easy solution: quit work
04:10<Forked>eddi: if only I was rich :p
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04:12<Celestar>REAL men make money without work
04:12<Forked>find a rich wife?
04:13<Forked>hmm. I think I like Google Chrome.
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04:14<Celestar>when is the abort-condition of a for loop tested?
04:15<@Rubidium>for (; <this>; ) <- that one?
04:16<Celestar>pre, right?
04:16<@Rubidium>for (x; y; z) a == { x; while (y) {a; z;}
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>for (a;b;c) {d;} is an abbreviation for a; while (b) {d; c;}
04:20<@peter1138>Forked, it's okay. It's not really anything as special as they're making out ;)
04:21<@peter1138>And where's the source if it's open source...
04:21<@peter1138>And its 'back' behaviour is a little annoying.
04:22<Celestar>building cargodest with --enable-debug=3 is unfun :P
04:23<Celestar>dunno what's sooo slow about it
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04:27<@peter1138>Hmm, that has to be wrong :o
04:28<@Rubidium>shouldn't not optimising be slightly faster?
04:28<Celestar>I mean not the building
04:28<Celestar>but the running
04:28<Celestar>fast forward with a SINGLE vehicle hardly gains any speed
04:29*roboboy waits for openttd to compile
04:29<@Rubidium>Celestar: absolutely nothing is inlined so almost every "simple" function gets function call overhead/can't get optimised etc.
04:30<Celestar>Rubidium: yeah, but I didn't notice it to that extend without cargodest
04:30<Celestar>but then again, I'm making extensive use of std::map which is about 3 orders of magnitude slower without inlines
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04:32<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: <= give it an extensive try please (=
04:34<Ammler>nice, joining with dos originals seems dummy safe now. :-)
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04:41*Celestar wonders how good g++ is at detecting loop invariants
04:42<Ammler>Rubidium: now, I see only one little problem, which I do not care, if someone likes to load a save local with his DOS newgrfs...
04:42<Celestar>especially in highly nested loop when the invariant is some member function with highly nested templates
04:43<@Rubidium>Ammler: what would be the problem?
04:43<@Rubidium>he can always switch the palette of the loaded newgrfs
04:44<Ammler>well, OTTD does tell him, that the md5 is different and then he should realize to toggle...
04:44<Ammler>the GRF is orange then?
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04:47<Ammler>anyway, many thanks, that will solve many confusion on our server, I hope :-)
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: i think templates are resolved first, and then the standard g++ magic starts
04:50<roboboy>I compiled a debug version of the trunk and it tells me that I have invalid language packs even if I coppy it to a working OTTD install
04:50<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah
04:50<roboboy>I did not get any language files when I compiled
04:50<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yet I'm not sure whether to trust the optimizer fully (=
04:50<roboboy>its my first compile
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04:56<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: MSVC? make sure you compile strgen first
05:01<roboboy>im recompiling but this time cargodest instead of trunk
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05:09*roboboy hopes it works
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05:35*Celestar just learnt that valgrind will not find out-of-bound access for arrays
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>i have a little problem properly following my passengers, as trams don't have a detailed view :(
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05:37<Kloopy>Are you using the compile fark for the cargodest test, then?:)
05:37<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah :(
05:37<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: use trains? ;)
05:37<Celestar>hm Rubidium where do I find the options that are set when using --enable-debug=?
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>kind of problematic through the city :p
05:44*roboboy leaves compiling cargodest alone as he is getting erors
05:45<Celestar>what errors?
05:46<roboboy>I shall login here from my server that im compiling on
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05:50<Eddi|zuHause>hm... is there a way to hide all station signs that start with a certain prefix? (like "WP" for stations that are only used as waypoints)
05:50<robotboy>c:\openttd development\cargodest\src\src\routing_classes.h(32) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'boost/graph/adjacency_list.hpp': No such file or directory is one of the erors
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>you need to install boost
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>as described on the wiki
05:51<robotboy>BSCMAKE: error BK1506 : cannot open file '..\objs\win32\release\routing.sbr': No such file or directory being the other
05:51*peter1138 updates a patch from 13388 ... mmm, conflicts ...
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05:52<Celestar>robotboy: did you install boost at all?
05:53<robotboy>nope. where does it say to install it? On the cargodest page? if so then I only read it quickly
05:53<robotboy>fixing it now
05:54<Celestar>Cannot open include file: 'boost/graph/adjacency_list.hpp' <= apparently you need to install it somewhere in the default include path
05:56<robotboy>do I just download and install the entire package?
05:56<Celestar>you got space constrains? (=
05:57<robotboy>not realy
05:58*robotboy loves
05:59<robotboy>its great for logging into irc from locations that dnt need/have a client or java installed
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06:04<roboboy>firefox crashed
06:05<SmatZ>no way
06:05<SmatZ>works for me
06:06*roboboy waits for boost to download
06:07<roboboy>its beeing verry slow
06:09<roboboy>I may want to get it elsewhere if its not finished when I get back from dinner and watching TV
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06:14<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [routing] [Passagiere] :INFO: Vehicle arrived at <109> without order <- how can i find out where that is?
06:15<Progman>where? 109 is the station
06:15<Progman>but the question is, which is the vehicle ;)
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>i want to know which station that is
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>as in get the name, or scroll to
06:15<Progman>check the rn command
06:16<Progman>afaik there is a command to get the name of the ID
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>ah yes, "rn lv"
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>hm... something is wrong with the start time display
06:21<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: I did have the station name there, but it was so horribly slow
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's not needed there, it's sufficient to run another command to find out the name
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>i just wanted to know which command ;)
06:24<Celestar>rn lv then it is
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: a suggestion about handling such a case: the passengers that are in the vehicle should not leave it, unless it is really their target station
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>currently, it unloads all passengers
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>which then have nowhere to go
06:26<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: er?
06:26<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: elaborate
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>the vehicle that caused above message, was currently unloading everything at this station
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>a station that is not served in anyway
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>s/yw/y w/
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>they should have stayed in the vehicle
06:28<Celestar>it should do exactly that
06:29<Celestar>at least I did when last I checked :o
06:29<Celestar>got a savegame for me?
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06:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14234 /trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp: -Fix: feeder share was computed wrong when splitting cargo packet
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06:30<TrueBrain>that should be the last of it :)
06:31<Celestar>last of what?
06:31<TrueBrain>unexpected reboots :p
06:31<TrueBrain>well .. 'unexpected'
06:33<TrueBrain>now we can finally boot 64bit guests
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: unfortunately not
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06:40<dih>@kick guest64
06:40<@DorpsGek>dih: Error: guest64 is not in #openttd.
06:40*roboboy thinks somehing is going on with SF downloads or his connection at the moment
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06:41<TrueBrain>roboboy: most likely: SF :p
06:41<TrueBrain>what are you trying to download? :)
06:41<dih>the internet
06:41<roboboy>boost to compile cargodest
06:42<TrueBrain>dih: that is a big download ;)
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's only 2 DVDs when you strip the porn :p
06:43<TrueBrain>really, Intel BIOS sucks .. they disable Virtualizing by default .. and for what reason? :(
06:43<@peter1138>Grr, Windows just bluescreened :o
06:43<TrueBrain>peter1138: :o :o
06:43<TrueBrain>lol @ Eddi|zuHause
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06:44<Kloopy>Wasn't TrueBrain going to be really nice and use the compile farm for cargodests this afternoon? :P
06:44<@peter1138>SmatZ, that doesn't actually affect payments, does it?
06:44<Kloopy>Meaning you'd not have to download boost?
06:44<Celestar>peter1138: only feeder shares
06:45<SmatZ>peter1138: as Celestar said :) the only problem is that the vehicle that loads these packets may show invalid negative income
06:45<SmatZ>like in FS#2261
06:45<Ammler>Kloopy: he is just waiting for us to ask him to :-)
06:46<dih>Ammler: ask kindly :-P
06:46<Ammler>(he has nothing else to do) ;-)
06:46<dih>now that will help!
06:46<SmatZ>but the real money are still computed from distance(orig. src -> dst)
06:46<@peter1138>SmatZ, *nod*
06:46<Celestar>Kloopy: only if i've 'fixed' the source for the test
06:46<Celestar>and I want some changes in first
06:46<Kloopy>What's broken with it, Celestar? :)
06:46<Kloopy>You're the man! You can fix it! :D
06:47<roboboy>but I want to compile myself anyway
06:47<Kloopy>Fair enough, roboboy. :)
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>OVERDRIVE: 2 <- i think that's too little information to really know if it's doing what i want it to do
06:48<Celestar>Kloopy: payment stuff is one thing (in trunk now)
06:49<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: enable debug routing level 1, then you get a BIT more information. You'll get even more in about 30 minutes, k?
06:49<Ammler>how do I pull a hg repo in a svn repo?
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>i enabled that, but it doesn't say anything
06:49<Ammler>(if it is possible...)
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>except the other message about the wrong station
06:50<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: DONT use intermediate stations without orders, just don't use them
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it was a mistake
06:52<@peter1138>Celestar, 'ghost' orders are for after merge?
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>merge should have priority now, i think
06:54<Celestar>peter1138: I think so
06:54<Celestar>peter1138: I think the GUI stuff should have priority now
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06:55<Kloopy>Celestar: In Multiplayer, are cargodest patch settings for EVERYONE or can you have some companies with cargodests enabled and some without?
06:55<@peter1138>They're for everyone.
06:57<Celestar>they must be basically
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07:02*roboboy wonders where else to get boost or the bit he needs
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07:02<Eddi|zuHause>when newgrf ports are extended to tram stations, there should be the ability to place certain road bits over them
07:02<Celestar>roboboy: ?!
07:03<Celestar>roboboy: maybe here?
07:03<roboboy>I said else as there downloads are from sourceforge and it is taking forever to get
07:04<roboboy>unless I leave it overnight
07:05<roboboy>that was quick compared to before
07:05<Celestar>er use another mirror?
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>apparently i have an "OVERDRIVE: 7" route ;)
07:09<roboboy>do I just need graph?
07:10<Celestar>roboboy: yeah
07:10<roboboy>or should I just unzip the entire boost folder?
07:10<Celestar>roboboy: it it depends heavily on other stuff
07:10<@Rubidium>Celestar: what do you want to know exactly about the debuglevels?
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07:12<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [routing] [Passagiere] :Overdrive used at <63>
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>is it possible that the function gets called a lot of times?
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>i got kinda spammed with output, even though only 1 passenger is in the tram
07:14<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: every time yes.
07:14<Celestar>Rubidium: er ... er ... what was my question again? :P
07:15<Celestar>kinda lost track :P
07:15<@Rubidium>11:37 < Celestar> hm Rubidium where do I find the options that are set when using --enable-debug=?
07:15<Celestar>oh RIGHT
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>hm, no, it's the wrong tram
07:15<@Rubidium>11:37 < Celestar> hm Rubidium where do I find the options that are set when using --enable-debug=?
07:15<Celestar>Rubidium: no problem I found it (=
07:15<@Rubidium>argh... stupid putty :(
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>the tram was going the other direction, coming from the main station, so it was probably rather full ;)
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>so it appears to be working alright
07:18<Forked>reminds me, I saw some strange behaviour earlier, but will look at it when I get home.
07:18<Celestar>Program received signal SIGFPE, Arithmetic exception.
07:18<TrueBrain>wow, impressive :)
07:19<Forked>A train going A-C-B never loaded a single passenger.. while trains going A-B-C got them all - even those to C
07:19<@Rubidium>sounds like a generic division by 0
07:19<Forked>but that might not have been in the latest version :)
07:20<roboboy>so I ned to include the boost files?
07:20<roboboy>ie add them to the include folders list in vs05
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>i wondered yesterday... why am i the only person who finds those electrified/unelectrified bugs?
07:23<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: because you are a geek? :p
07:23<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: because everybody uses maglev. :-P
07:25<Celestar>peter1138: I'd need some help with the GUI stuff
07:25<Celestar>I'm waaaaay to stupid to do it correctly today
07:26<TrueBrain>General Anouncement: Windows Sucks! (takes 422 seconds to compile a Windows binary, where all other targets take around 180 seconds)...
07:26<Celestar>General Anouncement: Zero is needed Zero
07:27<Celestar> <= this is what I have up to now
07:27<SmatZ>TrueBrain: remove -O3 :) (if it is still there ;)
07:28<SmatZ>hmm no
07:29<TrueBrain>MSVC compile
07:31*roboboy leaves cargodest to compile
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07:33<SmatZ>TrueBrain: can you set lower optimisation anyway?
07:33<TrueBrain>dunno, I don't work with MSVC :p
07:34<SmatZ>iirc, win binaries are much bigger than linux ones, seems it does much more inlining
07:34<SmatZ>or so
07:34<SmatZ>I fail to find anything at the nightly page now :-)
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07:40<robotboy>BSCMAKE: error BK1506 : cannot open file '..\objs\win32\release\routing.sbr': No such file or directory I still get this eror
07:42<Celestar>roboboy: is that the FIRST error you get?
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07:42<robotboy>does boost need to be in the include variable or the lib variable?
07:43<robotboy>no I still get the boost error
07:43<Celestar>then you have boost in the wrong place
07:43<Celestar>you need a file that is "boost/graph/adjacency_list.hpp"
07:43<Celestar>the PATH is important!
07:43<robotboy>does it go as an include or lib
07:45<robotboy>so C:\Boost\Include would include all the boost files in the include variable
07:45<SmatZ> list of files :)
07:45<robotboy>that I need
07:45<Celestar>then you need C:\Boost\Include\boost\graph\adjacency_list.hpp
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07:46<Brianetta>Celestar: When I said, "The passengers get off the train at every single stop. There, they decide which vehicle to use next," it was really to drive home the point that every station is somewhere that changes happen. That the passenger has *no inclination whatsoever* to stay on the train if there's a "better" one. That they don't actually get off until the decision is made is only semantically different.
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>i beg to differ :p
07:47<Brianetta>Eddi: Only loading times make it different
07:47<@peter1138>But isn't there a penalty for transfering?
07:47<robotboy>lets see if rebuilding fixes it otherwise I will be off to bed
07:47<@peter1138>Hmm, I thought there was :o
07:47<Celestar>peter1138: there is a penatly for each stopover, no matter whether transferring or transitting
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: no, because it does not know in advance if the intermediate stop is really a transferring stop
07:47<Celestar>peter1138: I'm working on coughing something up about this
07:47<Brianetta>There probably should be. Passengers like to keep their seat, and it's time consuming and expensive to unload trains of cargo.
07:48<Celestar>Brianetta: I'm already working on it
07:48<Celestar>but it's something for version 2
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07:48<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, right... and if it doesn't know about it all the way you could end up with bouncing cargo.
07:48<Brianetta>One day we'll have cargo packets bound to cargo wagons
07:48<Brianetta>and alter the consist in shunt yards
07:48<Brianetta>so a given wagon will get where it's going
07:48<Brianetta>but the "train" as an entity will be fluid
07:49<Celestar>Brianetta: cargopackets ARE bound to cargo wagons
07:49<Brianetta>I mean bound in the literal sense
07:49<Brianetta>Until the mid-20th century, many cargo wagons were owned by the customer
07:49<Brianetta>They just wanted their wagon to get somewhere
07:50<Brianetta>It's spend several hours per night in marshalling yards
07:50<Brianetta>but the cargo wouldn't be unloaded except by the customer
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07:50<@peter1138>In that case you're transporting the wagons. The contents are irrelevant.
07:51<@peter1138>Sounds like quite a major gameplay change.
07:51<Brianetta>I'm not saying our wagons shouldn't be our wagons; they should be "leased" to the customer at pick-up time
07:51<Brianetta>So, we go fetch coal, as before
07:51<Brianetta>but not all the wagons might be going the same way
07:52<Brianetta>Trains could be split or merged
07:52<Brianetta>it'd be fun
07:52<Ammler>isn't it still that way with containers?
07:53<Brianetta>but the trains consist isn't altered for those
07:53<TrueBrain>Brianetta: a better addition to the game might be that you can 'buy' coal at a mine for a given price, and sell it to a powerstation at a given price, where those prices change depending on demand (so no longer it matters how long it travels)
07:53<Brianetta>TrueBrain: That's how people perceive it at the moment
07:53<Celestar>first thing we need a realistic braking
07:53<Celestar>then we need realistic reversing
07:53<Brianetta>Celestar: Agreed
07:53<Celestar>so in about 2015 :P
07:54<Ammler>TrueBrain: then you would need storage stations :-)
07:54<Brianetta>[12:48] <Brianetta> One day we'll have.....
07:54<@peter1138>Shunting yards?
07:54<Celestar>peter1138: YAY!
07:54<Celestar>peter1138: have you finished them? :P
07:54<TrueBrain>Ammler: of course
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>argh... i wondered why my trams are suddenly going late at the same time
07:54<TrueBrain>but I guess the game goes away from TT then a lot ;)
07:54<Brianetta>I think buying/selling cargo departs radically from the game's premise
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>i forgot to place a signal before the level crossing...
07:54<Brianetta>People will want private industries, too
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07:55<Brianetta>Besides, the cargo might be unaffordable
07:55<Brianetta>Take valuables
07:55<Ammler>and private towns ;-)
07:55<Brianetta>You're paid to carry them, but could you, as a train company, afford to pay outright for them?
07:56<TrueBrain>Brianetta: in that case you would need to get a contract, to just move them from A to B
07:56<TrueBrain>but yeah, 2015+ ;)
07:56<Brianetta>TrueBrain: I thought the contract was just hidden from play, exactly like the passengers' tickets
07:57<Brianetta>I never made the assumption that any of the cargo on board my trains belonged to me
07:57<TrueBrain>it now for sure is ;)
07:57<Brianetta>Cargo destinations removes the final stumbling block, wherein I get to choose where other peoples' cargo goes
07:57<Brianetta>(thankgs Celestar, peter1138)
07:58<TrueBrain>well, for sure it can;t be the 'final' one
07:58<Brianetta>In this field of "it's not my cargo" it is
07:58<TrueBrain>but for sure it is a good move forward ;)
07:58<Brianetta>There are other stumbling blocks, but they're unrelated (:
07:59<TrueBrain>but I still wish OpenTTD would have different types of gameplay
07:59<TrueBrain>that would just be fun :)
07:59<TrueBrain>and why does my Debian install hang at 'Validating libtext-iconv-perl' :(
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: how much micromanagement do you expect people to put in selling cargo at the right time?
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>man... i definitely need orders that are both "no loading" and "no unloading"
08:05<Brianetta>Eddi, what for?
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>"go via" does not let me timetable
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>i want the freight trains to go to a siding and wait there for the express train to pass
08:06<Brianetta>You could, for now, put the sidings in a location that neither accepts nor provides cargo
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>the sidings are station tracks near a town
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>stations are not in the middle of the pampa...
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08:10<Celestar>pampa ... south american plains
08:10<Celestar>vast and lonely
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>it's a common phrase in german for a place in the middle of nowhere ;)
08:11<@peter1138>^ Yes they are ;)
08:13<Kloopy>Bah, whoever built that station failed. Have they not read the wiki about catchment areas?
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08:13<@peter1138>They were obviously playing a cargodest build :)
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08:14<Kloopy>lol :P
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's roughly my layout, but it does not guarantee in anyway that there is no acceptance
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's funny how the surrounding photos are grey, and the area around this station is green ;)
08:18<hylje>that's how catchment looks like
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08:25<@peter1138> is better around this area.
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like microsof
08:26<@peter1138>It is.
08:26<Celestar>mesa no have "life"
08:26<@peter1138>Hmm, there are 5 lines through that tiny countryside station ;)
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08:28<@peter1138>And a Pendolino further up.
08:28<@peter1138> :D
08:29<Kloopy>They're a nice ride, those.
08:29<Kloopy>Fast and comfortable.
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08:35<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [routing] [Passagiere] :Overdrive used at <64> <- i don't understand that one, 64 is the main station, no vehicles go through there, all end there... how can overdrive occur there?
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08:35<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: not sure (yet) :P
08:35<Celestar>maybe going back?
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's possible
08:36<@peter1138>Hmm, someone just did a transaction for €10,000
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>instead of taking the train to the other end of the city, which they planned at first
08:37<@Rubidium>peter1138: you have to notify the CIA of such large transactions?
08:41<Celestar>TrueBrain: can we somehow start the compile farm on the current cargodest code base?
08:42<+glx>Celestar: msvc fails due to latest merge ;)
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08:42<Celestar>glx: it does?
08:42<Celestar>where what how?
08:43<Celestar>glx: and why? (=
08:43<+glx>r14234 cargopacket.cpp:275
08:44<+glx>Erreur,...2,...error C2666: 'OverflowSafeInt<T,T_MAX,T_MIN>::operator /' : les 4 surcharges ont des conversions similaires,...d:\developpement\ottd\trunk3\src\cargopacket.cpp,...222
08:44<Celestar>non-english output
08:44<+glx>overloading problem, MSVC can't determine what to use
08:45<Celestar>glx: then you should have that error in trunk as well
08:45<+glx>it's in trunk :)
08:45<Celestar>glx: any ideas how to get around that?
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08:45<+glx>we had it before
08:45*glx needs to find how we solved it
08:51<+glx> <-- that solves it
08:51<+glx>SmatZ: ^^
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>hm... missing a route...
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that site fails horribly in konqueror...
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09:07<Tekky>hi, did I understand correctly that the trunk and cargodest repositories were broken 10 minutes ago? Do they compile now or should I wait before getting the latest SVN release?
09:07<+glx>you can wait if you are a MSVC user :)
09:08<Tekky>yes, I am a user of MS Visual C++ 2008 :(
09:13<dih>laugh out loudly
09:13<dih>i would say lol, but i thought i'd be more supportive after you expanded MSVC :-P
09:15<@peter1138>glx: ((uint)cp->count) ?
09:15<@peter1138>glx, why the extra braces?
09:15<+glx>safety ?
09:15<+glx>it works without it
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09:17<Celestar>er .. static_cast<uint>cp->count ?
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09:18<TrueBrain>Celestar: is cargodest already compilable?
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09:18<Celestar>TrueBrain: no, I'm waiting for the final fix of glx
09:18<+glx>Celestar: works too
09:18<Celestar>I dunno why MSVC fucks that up
09:18<TrueBrain>let me know :)
09:18<+glx>MSVC and templates :)
09:18<+glx>TrueBrain knows how it nicely fails
09:19<Celestar>cp>-count IS a unsigned short?!
09:19<+glx>it's an uint16
09:19<+glx>and uint16 is not one of the 4 "supported" types in templates
09:19<Celestar>I didn't now MSVC sucked THAT badly
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>my routing cache is wrong :(
09:20<Celestar>are we we committing this cast?
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>or my route network
09:20<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: how did you manage to mess it up?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was through adding intermediate orders
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>but i have no real idea
09:21<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: reset it, see if it works
09:21<Celestar>if it does, bad luck. if it doesn't I might have a chance debugging it?
09:21<@Belugas>are we this committing cast ?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that helps
09:22<Celestar>Belugas: ?
09:22<+glx>I'm writing the commit message
09:22*Celestar would prefer static_cast over C-Style casts btw (=
09:22<@Belugas>[09:20] <Celestar> are we we committing this cast? <--- twisting the words in a different meaning ^_^
09:22<+glx>indeed it looks "cleaner"
09:22<Celestar>Belugas: oh :P
09:22<Celestar>glx: yes and you spot it better
09:22<@peter1138>(int) is shorter.
09:22<Celestar>going "BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP" in your brain
09:22<@peter1138>Nicer imho.
09:23<+glx>but count or cp->count are unsigned
09:23<@peter1138>I meant C-style as opposed to C++-Style...
09:24<Celestar>mesa no tink so
09:24<+glx>OTTD is C++ now ;)
09:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14235 /trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp: -Fix (r14234): compilation with MSVC was broken
09:27<Tekky>when working with classes and polymorphism, it is important to distinguish between static_cast and dynamic_cast. But I don't see any necessity to use this distinction with signed and unsigned integers, so I would personally prefer C-style casts in this situation.
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09:28<Noldo>Tekky: there are other types of casts too
09:28<Tekky>Celestar: cargodest is also broken, isn't it? Isn't a trunk merge with cargodest necessary now?
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09:29<Noldo>problem with c-style cast is that it's sometimes reintrpret and sometimes static cast
09:29<Celestar>Tekky: it's already done
09:30<Tekky>Celestar: cool, thx
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09:32<+glx>Celestar: no it's not :)
09:32<Celestar>glx: er?
09:32<Celestar>oh it's still pushing?!
09:32<Celestar>finished :P
09:32<+glx>indeed ;)
09:33*eekee is compiling r14234. jas just missed getting cargo dest?
09:33<Tekky>Celestar: what does "pushing" mean? Is that the process of merging with trunk?
09:33<Celestar>Tekky: pushing is publishing my local changes to a server, in this case,
09:33<+glx>it's like and avn commit
09:34<Tekky>ah, thx
09:34<Tekky>Celestar: Ah, so when you merge with trunk, you first do so locally and then update the server with the cargodest repository?
09:35<Celestar>Tekky: yes. In hg, all commits are local only
09:35<Celestar>push then moves it onto the server
09:35<+glx>there's not real hg repository :)
09:35<+glx>you could pull changes from Celestar's local copy directly
09:35<TrueBrain>decentral, is the word :)
09:35<Celestar>IF I run hg serve (=
09:36<Celestar>TrueBrain: can we like run the compile farm on cargodest at 1600CEST?
09:36<TrueBrain>Celestar: and, is it ready now? :p
09:36<eekee>oh hg is like git in that way?
09:36<Celestar>TrueBrain: ready yes. tested no
09:36<Celestar>TrueBrain: you can also just run it and see what fails to compile (=
09:36<TrueBrain>Celestar: well, I can't schedule it, but I can trigger it now, or in 24 minutes .. what ever you want
09:37<Celestar>TrueBrain: in a few minutes
09:37<TrueBrain>just let me know
09:37<+glx>there's still a warning (but it's in trunk too)
09:37<Celestar>TrueBrain: You shall be informed
09:37<Celestar>glx: which one?
09:37<+glx>peter1138 knows :)
09:37<Celestar>anything critical?
09:38<+glx>performance warning
09:38*Celestar shrugs
09:38<+glx>InfoChangeResult to bool conversion
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09:38<Celestar>file, line?
09:39<+glx> <-- this one
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09:39<+glx>but I won't commit it as peter1138 said he'll fix it in a better way
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09:44<Celestar>TrueBrain: you have a go for compile (=
09:44<TrueBrain>but now I don't want to :p
09:45-!-Doorslammer is now known as Slammer
09:46*Celestar hands TrueBrain a beer
09:46*TrueBrain hits enter
09:47-!-Slammer is now known as roDoslammer
09:47<TrueBrain>[2008-09-03 13:46:46] Created job 0000007 (hg://
09:47<TrueBrain>[2008-09-03 13:46:46] Created proc 0000048 (0000007, win64)
09:47<TrueBrain>[2008-09-03 13:46:46][Thread 1] Starting proc 0000048
09:47<TrueBrain>(and many more of those lines
09:49<@peter1138>So do we the pleasure of being able to do these things ourselves, or is our dedicated server TrueBrain/Rubidium only territory?
09:49<TrueBrain>peter1138: the latter, of course
09:49<TrueBrain>that is logic, not?
09:49<TrueBrain>you expected more?
09:49<TrueBrain>oh dear ..
09:50<TrueBrain>peter1138: as we can't do magic, it takes time to create such tools which all the developers understand, and can use .. for now we can't even produce nightlies on a nightly base
09:50<TrueBrain>230 seconds to produce a debian binary :)
09:51<@peter1138>230 seconds... this server must suck.
09:51<@peter1138>Did you mean 23?
09:51<TrueBrain>no, 230 seconds
09:51<@peter1138>What is it doing?
09:51<TrueBrain>you ever did: make mrproper; ./configure; make
09:52<TrueBrain>see how long it takes on your computer ;) (make -j1 btw)
09:52<@peter1138>About 2 minutes.
09:52<@peter1138>It's off at the moment so I can't double check :p
09:53<Celestar>2-3minutes here
09:53<TrueBrain>so it sounds about right :)
09:53<@peter1138>230 seconds is nearly 4 minutes.
09:53<Tekky>are you talking about the new LeaseWeb server?
09:54<TrueBrain>peter1138: yup :) About 20 seconds is wasted in unpacking a tar with all the required files, and an other 20 seconds to pick the binary and required files
09:54<TrueBrain>an other 20 to boot up the system and shut it down
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09:54<TrueBrain>so all by all, it is not that slow ;)
09:54<TrueBrain>Tekky: yes
09:54<eekee>what do you call engines when a single purchase gets you an engine at both ends of the train?
09:55<TrueBrain>Windows 64bit: 519 seconds
09:55<TrueBrain>now that is a lot ... stupid MSVC :(
09:55<+glx>windows startup is slow too
09:56<TrueBrain>glx: 12 seconds
09:56<@peter1138>Feh, takes me 18 seconds for a full (debug) build ;)
09:56<TrueBrain>glx: it beats Debian to it
09:56<TrueBrain>takes my own system here 2 minutes 42 seconds to do a full recompile
09:56<TrueBrain>glx: that is called ripping away all unneeded shit from Windows :p
09:56<+glx>MSVC release builds are slow
09:56<TrueBrain>it doesn't even boot the disk manager ...
09:57<@peter1138>Hmm, you run the compile as root? :o
09:57<+glx>I can configure and make win9x after starting win32 release build, and win9x is finished first
09:58<TrueBrain>glx: sounds about right ;)
09:58<TrueBrain>peter1138: how do you mean?
10:00<TrueBrain>glx: in this case, 2 debian targets and source + docs compiled, in the time it took win64 to compile
10:00<+glx>not surprising
10:00<TrueBrain>just very sad
10:01<+glx>but MSVC release builds are highly optimised
10:01<+glx>(sometimes too much)
10:01<+glx>gave some funny bugs
10:02<TrueBrain>gcc -O3 is known to over optimize too
10:02<TrueBrain>when you try that for OSX target, you have to start running ;)
10:02<Celestar>not as bad as it used to
10:02<Celestar>er .. doesn't gcc on OSX go up to -O5 ?
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10:03<TrueBrain>Celestar: possible, I know -O4 was instant crash
10:03<TrueBrain>so never checked any higher values :p
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10:03<Celestar>-O5 takes the whole OS with it
10:03<Celestar>-O6 then causes a quantum singularity
10:03<TrueBrain>Celestar: at least makes it fast :p
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10:04<TrueBrain>455 seconds for win32 ..a good 60 seconds faster than win64 ..
10:04<+glx>at least it showed that int x = a() << 16 | b(); doesn't always call a before b
10:04<Celestar>glx: it's UB anyway
10:04<Celestar>x = a() + b() <= There is no definition which function is called first.
10:04<+glx>yes and msvc optimisation showed it nicely
10:04<TrueBrain>glx: you should never trust the order of such statements :)
10:05<Celestar>don't make use of UBs (=
10:05<+glx>there was some stuff like that with Random() calls
10:05<TrueBrain>Celestar: well, isn't NULL also undefined for C89 or so?
10:05<Celestar>TrueBrain: undefined.
10:05<Celestar>TrueBrain: not undefined behaviour
10:05<TrueBrain>okay okay :)
10:05<Celestar>read: implementation dependent
10:06<TrueBrain>btw, it amazed me that MS is really so stupid to make ftell() ... smart? Well, that aint the word for it ..
10:07<+glx>fopen(file, "rb"); <-- the "b" flags has been added for MS ;)
10:10<TrueBrain>ah, cargodest finished
10:10<TrueBrain>(Well, the compile-farm part)
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10:10<Celestar>nice (=
10:10<eekee>British craftsmen have a derogatory phrase that could be applied to quite a lot of things in computing: "Trying to be clever."
10:10<TrueBrain>that should be it ;)
10:11<Celestar>cool. Thanks TrueBrain
10:11<TrueBrain>look, it even has a changelog! :p
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10:11<+glx>chemical/x-pdb <-- lol
10:11<TrueBrain>lol :)
10:12<+glx>but these pdb work
10:12<TrueBrain>peter1138: if you want to know, the server itself can compile OpenTTD in 35 seconds. But that is utilizing all 4 cores :)
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10:13<TrueBrain>(which isn't the smartest idea, knowing the website and stuff do want CPU time too ;))
10:13<+glx>and some servers want memory too ;)
10:14<TrueBrain>memory there is plenty :p
10:14<TrueBrain>(lighttpd is restricted to avoid it consuming ALL the memory)
10:14<Gekz>make it use 3 cores then
10:15<+glx>it just dies when it reaches the limit ?
10:15<TrueBrain>the compile-farm does .. 3 targets compile at the same time, each at their own core :)
10:16<TrueBrain>glx: yes, OOM-killer kicks in
10:16<TrueBrain>(not much you can do about that in Linux land)
10:16<eekee>wouldn't it get better cache usage by doing 1 task on 3 cores?
10:16<Gekz>Linux seriously fails for memory handling
10:16<+glx>Gekz: I think windows is worse
10:16<TrueBrain>eekee: VirtualBox is used, so no ;)
10:16<Gekz>you cant do anything on Windows to prove that it fails
10:16<hylje>everything fails
10:16<Gekz>it doesnt let you get to that point
10:17<eekee>mem handling is generally impossible to do well in a multi-tasking environment
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10:46<Celestar>TrueBrain: no OSX?
10:46<+glx>no VM for it
10:46*dih cries
10:47*Eddi|zuHause cheers
10:47<dih>not good
10:47<+glx>tell that to apple ;)
10:48<TrueBrain>Celestar: OSX sucks
10:48<TrueBrain>we tried like 10 ways already
10:48<TrueBrain>and .. OSX 10.5 sucks
10:53<eekee>I 'spect OS X requires hardware opengl
10:53<Gekz>you cant cross compile?
10:53<Gekz>MacOS X must die.
10:53<@Rubidium>Gekz: ofcourse you can cross-compile... but those binaries won't boot on Intel OSX 10.5
10:53<TrueBrain>OSX is nice .. just that they dropped their GCC patches is less nice
10:53<eekee>they can't do that
10:54<Gekz>they just did
10:54*eekee smells big trouble brewing
10:54<Gekz>I'm going to sleep
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11:21<eekee>hmm, I could use a way to make a train go to depot only after it's finished loading/unloading
11:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14236 /branches/noai/ (94 files in 16 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14194:14235
11:22<eekee>or to go to depot (and stop) only when it comes to the service at .. order
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11:29*yorick wonders if it's possible to switch password encription to sha
11:29<yorick>someone told me he used a "publicly available openttd password cracker" to steal company passwords
11:30-!-Jerimiah40 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:30<yorick>and he actually got the company passwords from somewhere
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11:31<blathijs>yorick: You mean a server admin that recovered passwords of clients?
11:32<yorick>some absolute stranger that said he had used a publicly available openttd password cracker to steal the passwords that were used on the server...
11:32<yorick>and yes, he got them correctly
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11:33<@peter1138>From what?
11:33<yorick>how do you mean?
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11:34<eekee>yorick: you mean he picked some random server and was able to get in?
11:34<yorick>he got the company passwords and the server password
11:36<TrueBrain>dih: stop toying with yorick, he doesn't like it :p
11:36<yorick>well, I know the tools to bruteforce openttd exist
11:37<eekee>glibc SHA1* functions don't look too different to the MD* functions
11:37<TrueBrain>dih: I was kidding :)
11:37<TinoDidriksen>If there's access to the hashes, it's easy to do lookups in rainbow tables...but why would he have access to those?
11:37<dih>i just noticed :-P
11:38<yorick>I dont think he had access to the hashes
11:38<dih>yorick: use ap+, remove the rcon password and use !rcon ;-)
11:38<TrueBrain>what is sent over the network nowedays? md5?
11:38<@peter1138>Switching hash does not help against bruteforce at all.
11:38<yorick>seeded md5
11:38<dih>not for rcon password
11:38<TinoDidriksen>Salted, you mean.
11:38<dih>that is plain text
11:38<TrueBrain>what is the plain text for: 60b725f10c9c85c70d97880dfe8191b3
11:38<yorick>yes, he didn't try the rcon password
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11:39<TrueBrain>(hint, use
11:39<DaleStan>Are there not an infinite number of plaintexts that produce that hash?
11:39<TrueBrain>DaleStan: depending on your string length, but there is one simple plaintext solution for this string
11:39<@peter1138>Without a limit on input length, yes.
11:40<TinoDidriksen>Yes, but you know passwords are usually not very long, so easy to make tables.
11:40<TrueBrain>(and in fact, the md5sums of all dictonary words are findable via google)
11:40<@peter1138>To get the hash you need to either read OpenTTD's memory, or snoop the network.
11:40<TrueBrain>just to show you how uncool md5 is, when you use plaintext words which can be found in a dictonary
11:40<@peter1138>Easier to bruteforce.
11:40<TinoDidriksen>Hence why salting with longer unique strings is very important these days.
11:40<@peter1138>I do not use secure passwords for multiplayer games...
11:41<dih>yorick: your's and rortom's bot can be used to bruteforce easily
11:41<TrueBrain>peter1138: I sure hope nobody is using his uber-password for MP games :s
11:41<@peter1138>TrueBrain, you'd be surprised...
11:41<dih>i am so not happy with that bot
11:41<TrueBrain>peter1138: I always am .. makes me very sad :(
11:41<yorick>dih: if someone writes a thing to hash the passwords, yes
11:41<dih>yorick: rcon is not hashed
11:41<dih>company password is
11:42<yorick>how would you check rcon password correctness
11:42<yorick>it has no error if it's incorrect
11:42<dih>besids the hashing is not _that_ difficult to rewrite into a python bot
11:42<dih>rcon <pass> echo 1
11:42<yorick>salting seems to be
11:43<TinoDidriksen>CHAP with SHA1 is a good start.
11:43<yorick>that'd require a timeout every time, dih
11:43<dih>yorick: just read the openttd code, & translate it to python
11:43<yorick>python strings are immutable
11:43<dih>a timeout is not an issue
11:43<@peter1138>Doesn't CHAP require the password to be stored in plaintext?
11:43<yorick>it takes 1 second for each failed try
11:44<yorick>python has no string bitwise stuff
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11:45<SmatZ>does client ever receive any password, even in hashed form?
11:45<yorick>only way is to bruteforce
11:46<dih>all it gets is the servers unique_id
11:46<SmatZ>no ... so how could he "dehash" it?
11:46<yorick>dih: and genmap seed
11:46<dih>and that is _so_ hard to get
11:46<TinoDidriksen>Point of CHAP is that what is sent over the wire is not possible to reuse. If you add salting with a known salt on both sides then you don't need to store in plain text either.
11:46<dih>if the client can hash it's own stuff
11:46<dih>why can not a python client
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11:46<TinoDidriksen>Python can. There's plenty of modules for that.
11:47<@Belugas>one of them is called pepper
11:47<TrueBrain>yorick: the passwords used on the server he supposenly broke into, were they dictonary words?
11:47<yorick>TB: I dunno, I think they were partly dutch, partly english with some numbers mixed in
11:48<dih>so 8-12 chars
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11:48<TrueBrain>yorick: then that would be a no ;)
11:49*dih starts looking in his dict to find a half dutch half english word with digits in the middle
11:49<eekee>wouldn't better encryption slow the bruteforce?
11:49<yorick>digits in the end
11:49<yorick>not the middle
11:49<SmatZ>if it was his server, he could set company passwords to whatever he wanted ;)
11:50<dih>anyway - the rcon is not encrypted
11:50<yorick>SmatZ: well, but someone breaking in to a normal server is a disaster
11:50<yorick>dih: he didn't crack the rcon
11:50<dih>so there is no need to discuss the encryption on someone hacking the rcon password
11:50<dih>yorick: as far as you know, he did not
11:50<Ammler>it might be better to store company passwords plain and tell that
11:50<TrueBrain>yorick: well, if he is for any real, he comes in here and tell us how he did it
11:51<Ammler>so they could be saved and nobody has to worry about.
11:51<yorick>dih: cracking the rcon password would take approximatly 2.77777778 × 10^58 hours
11:51<yorick>assuming a timeout of 1 second
11:52<dih>yorick: that's what you guess... yes
11:52<TrueBrain>yorick: why a timeout of 1 second? You can do much much more requests per second
11:52<yorick>TrueBrain: only if the server responds, it is correct
11:52<TrueBrain>introduction to bruteforce: you send many many many tries per second, with the command: terminate server
11:52<TrueBrain>when you notice the server is gone
11:52<TrueBrain>go back 5 minutes in your tries
11:52<TrueBrain>and try it slower
11:52<dih>rcon <pass1> echo 1
11:52<TrueBrain>that wy, you never have to wait for a server reply
11:52<dih>rcon <pass2> echo 2
11:53<dih>rcon <pass3> echo 3
11:53*dih pats yorick on the head ;-)
11:53<TrueBrain>what dih says works too, if you can monitor the result
11:53<yorick>TrueBrain: you can
11:53<TrueBrain>(we did my trick over SSH :p)
11:53<dih>you will sooner or later get a result
11:54<Ammler>dih: but the problem is not yoricks bot, it would be openttd :-)
11:54<yorick>the server console would get flooded first
11:54<yorick>and possibly an auto-ban after 10 failed tries
11:54<yorick>or a time-limit
11:55<dih>Ammler: the bot makes it a lot easier to start brute forcing
11:55<yorick>dih: *someone* created remote admin tool that uses rcon, too
11:55<yorick>in autoit
11:56<dih>yes - i saw
11:56<yorick>lets not put in the fact I helped him out
11:56<dih>yucky yuck yuck
11:56<dih>well - those things were bound to show up sooner or later
11:56<yorick>first, he sent rcon commands over UDP and expected a result :-P
11:57<yorick>then, he sent the rcon commands ofer TCP and instantly closing the connection, still expecting a result :P
11:57<mortal`>lol, that's horrible yorick
11:57<dih>that is quite cute
11:58<dih>it sounds like he tried to follow an rcon tool for like quake3
11:58<dih>and tried turning that into tcp
11:58<yorick>those server error codes should get a meaning in console ;)
11:59<yorick>error 10054, client closed connection, how are the normal openttd hackers supposed to know what that means
11:59<dih>there should be a way to tell if something is a bot or a real client
11:59<dih>yorick: grepping the code?
11:59<yorick>more like grepping head
12:00<dih>on me way home
12:00<yorick>good luck
12:00<yorick>try not to kill too many deers on the way home
12:04<TinoDidriksen>There is by definition no way to tell who's a bot and who's a real client, especially since bad guys won't follow any such rules, or will swich as they see fit.
12:06<yorick>Tino: unless desync check moves to server
12:06<TinoDidriksen>They'll just keep synced.
12:07<TinoDidriksen>Every client is by definition hostile, until proven otherwise by authentication.
12:08<TrueBrain>TinoDidriksen: authentication alone is never enough
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12:08<yorick>TinoDidriksen: how would they keep synced without being a client?
12:08<TinoDidriksen>Well true there should be "idiot safeguards", but if someone auths as super-admin, they can't really be denied such access.
12:08<yorick>I think a client would be something that keeps sync
12:08<TrueBrain>TinoDidriksen: I agree :)
12:09<TinoDidriksen>Build a bot on top of the client...
12:09<yorick>then it is still a client
12:09<yorick>with a bot on top
12:09<murray>riding the client like a wild horse
12:09<yorick>or the other way around, building a client on top of a bot
12:10<yorick>which is possible, tho
12:10<yorick>if something can act as a client, it can also act as a server
12:10<TinoDidriksen>Point is that you cannot tell which is which. You can request clients/bots identify themselves, but can't really trust that.
12:12<yorick>no, why would you need that
12:13<yorick>"never trust a client" is the fundamental rule of the openttd protocol
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12:17<TrueBrain>yorick: only for OpenTTD?
12:17<yorick>for every other open-source-app protocol
12:17<@Belugas>"never trust a client" is the key rule to almost every business
12:17<yorick>closed source and real life is also recommended
12:17<@Belugas>add "never trust a clerk" too...
12:18<hylje>never trust anyone
12:18*yorick remembers good ol' multiplayer flash games
12:18<yorick>where people could not die, and fly with the speed of light
12:19<TrueBrain>for fun, talk to bzFlags developers
12:20<TrueBrain>the amount of 'cheats' for that game, are amazing ..
12:20<TrueBrain>and it is so easy ...
12:20<yorick>then shot you down through a wall with a mega gun that sounds like an exploding elephant
12:20<eekee>rofl ^^
12:24<Ammler>are those debian packs at the binary repo up2date?
12:24<yorick>if they're at 0.6.2, then yes
12:24<@peter1138>Never trust a yorick.
12:25<SmatZ>TrueBrain: cheats?
12:25<yorick>seems like the stables are
12:25<Ammler>I meant those:
12:25<Ammler>ah, they install openttd
12:26<blathijs>Ammler: I guess so, I think that autobuilding of .debs worked
12:26<blathijs>Ammler: But the package is still called "openttd"
12:26<blathijs>I'm working on changing that to "openttd-branchname" as we speak :-)
12:26<Ammler>well, just wondeing, if we could confuse a debian user
12:27<Ammler>because never saw those packs before in nightly archive
12:27<yorick>Ammler: y0U 3a8 confuse 3872590n3
12:27<Ammler>and personally, I would no like to have them installed, but debian user might like that.
12:27<blathijs>Ammler: No, building nightly .debs is a feature of the new compile farm
12:28<Ammler>can you have both at same time?
12:28<TrueBrain>SmatZ: stuff like: going through walls
12:28<Ammler>stable and nightly builds?
12:28<SmatZ>TrueBrain: flying, too?
12:28<yorick>TrueBrain: with guns that sound like exploding elephants?
12:28<blathijs>Ammler: I'm hoping to just get a repository, so you can add a line to sources.list and then just apt-get install openttd-cargodest
12:29<blathijs>Ammler: Not currently, but I have been thinking about that. Should be possible, I guess.
12:29<TrueBrain>Ammler: the debs are new, yes
12:29<eekee>cargodest is still a branch? What was that about merging earlier?
12:29<Ammler>well, as debian users are Freaks, they should know what they do ;-)
12:29<TrueBrain>Ammler: Gentoo users are Freaks
12:30<TrueBrain>Debian users are stupid
12:30<TrueBrain>big difference
12:30<yorick>Ammler: you can even confuse cats
12:30<eekee>ubuntu users are stupid :þ
12:30<TrueBrain>eekee: granted
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>eekee: it doesn't just happen from one second to the next just because someone said "we should merge that soon"
12:30<Ammler>isn't that the same?
12:30<eekee>Eddi|zuHause: no someone actually said they were merging
12:30<yorick>Ammler: cats don't use debian
12:31<eekee>cats use source mage if they have the patience, gentoo otherwise
12:31<Osai>hey guys
12:31<Osai>compilation fails on mac os x 10.5.4
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>eekee: that was a merge the other way round
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>merging recent trunk changes into cargodest
12:33<eekee>Eddi|zuHause: Oh I see ^^'
12:34<Osai>nargh, it doesn't
12:37<TrueBrain>lol @ Osai
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>gnah... multi tile "waypoints" don't work properly...
12:37<Osai>sorry ;P
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>all trains want to go through the same track
12:37<Osai>it was something weird, I don't want to talk about it ^^
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>and ignore the other tracks
12:38<Tekky>To whom it may concern: You may now enter "cargodest" in the OpenTTD wiki to reach the appropriate page. I just created a redirect page.
12:38<mortal`>nifty, thanks tekky
12:38<TrueBrain>YES! My life is now complete :) Tnx Tekky! :)
12:39<Tekky>well, it is a lot easier than typing "passenger and cargo destinations" :)
12:41<@peter1138>I just go to it via the 'Recent Changes' page ;)
12:42<TrueBrain>haha :)
12:42<TrueBrain>I tried Random Pages
12:42<TrueBrain>not so lucky
12:42<TrueBrain>did found a lot of crap
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12:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: matthijs * r14237 /trunk/os/debian/ (control rules):
12:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Feature [Debian]: Allow the Debian packaging to change the package name of the resulting package.
12:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - The name can be changed at build time, by changing the package name in debian/changelog.
12:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - This will allow packages like openttd-svn or openttd-cargodest packages to be built.
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12:57<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: You are expecting too much.
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i what?
12:57<TrueBrain>he said: you are expecting too much
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>i don't even have an idea what i am expecting...
12:58<fjb>You expected some people to find a link a posting above.
12:58<TrueBrain>haha, sounds bad ;)
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13:04<fjb>Hm, I guess I need to find a good free email account.
13:04-!-DaleStan [] has joined #openttd
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13:05<TrueBrain>I have one :) But you can't have it ;)
13:06<Wolf01>what, biscuits?
13:06<TrueBrain>hi Wolf01
13:06<Wolf01>hi :)
13:08<fjb>Hello Wolf01
13:08<Wolf01>hi fjb
13:08<fjb>TrueBrain: Shame on you.
13:09<TrueBrain>why? If you have my account, I can't mail :(
13:09<fjb>But the account of a true brain would be perfect.
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13:16<OdwallaBongwater>fjb, gmail?
13:16<TrueBrain>OdwallaBongwater: he was talking about a GOOD free email account
13:17<TrueBrain>I don't think gmail falls under that category
13:17<TrueBrain>(well, or you think your Privacy isn't important, then you might classify it under good)
13:17*fjb doesn't think either. But could be ok for just a fun account.
13:17<OdwallaBongwater>never had a problem with gmail, dont quite see what you're talking about
13:18<fjb>Big Google is watching you.
13:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: matthijs * r14238 /trunk/os/debian/ (21 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change [Debian]: Update Debian packaging files to the latest official Debian version.
13:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Packaging files are now identical to those of the official 0.6.2-1 (or,
13:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: r11138 in the collab-maint subversion repository), with the following
13:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: exceptions:
13:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Desktop files are removed, since openttd trunk installs them already.
13:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Changes regarding package names from r14237 are preserved.
13:18<TrueBrain>OdwallaBongwater: you do know the word 'privacy' I hope
13:18-!-Jerimiah40 [] has joined #openttd
13:18<TrueBrain>I know it is a bit snowed under with Google
13:18<TrueBrain>but it really exists
13:18<OdwallaBongwater>I do
13:18<OdwallaBongwater>I dont see quite what you're getting at though
13:19<blathijs>Rubidium: TrueBrain: You could try to add the following just before the debian/rules binary call in the build-debs process of the compile farm, to change the package name:
13:19<blathijs>rm debian/changelog
13:19<blathijs>dch --create --package openttd-svn -v 0.7.0~svn-1 " * Nightly build"
13:19<TrueBrain>well, you might want to read that thing you signed when you signed up
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13:20<OdwallaBongwater>I guess I might
13:20-!-OdwallaBongwater is now known as nckomodo
13:20-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
13:20<fjb>So what counts as a good free mail account today? Hard to find any.
13:21<blathijs>Rubidium: TrueBrain: Or perhaps even "-v 0.7.0~svn.r`svnversion`" to get the svn revision in the version number
13:21*blathijs is off to a BBQ
13:21<TrueBrain>enjoy blathijs!
13:21-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@] has quit [Quit: leaving]
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13:24<nckomodo>TrueBrain I'm not seeing anything that should be cause for alarm, mind pointing it out to me
13:26<TrueBrain>the fact that they index the content of all your mails
13:26<TrueBrain>in order 'to supply you with more direct adverts'?
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13:26<nckomodo>oh god its Dred_furst
13:27<Dred_furst>haha how random is that
13:27<nckomodo>shit where
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14:04<Kloopy>peter1138: I just got a crash on the cargodests binary build. I was looking at a treeview window and just as I went to click, the last passenger was loaded on to a train. When I clicked my mouse, it was on the space where the + was just showing before. It crashed as soon as I clicked.
14:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14239 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2267]: The engine-purchase-list-sorter doubled running-cost and halfed capacity of double-headed engines.
14:05<@Belugas>i think this crash would be better answered by Celestar, Kloopy
14:05<Kloopy>I agree, but he's not here and I wanted to put it down in writing before I forgot.
14:05<Kloopy>When I see him next, I'll give the same text to him. :D
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14:26<Eddi|zuHause>openttd: /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTDx/paxdest/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp:376: CommandCost ReplaceChain(Vehicle**, uint32, bool, bool*): Assertion `GetNextUnit(new_head) == __null' failed.
14:26-!-GoneWacko [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>AAAAAH... some idiot switched autosave off!!
14:27-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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14:29<Eddi|zuHause>my last savegame is from 12:00 :(
14:29<dih>Rubidium, with all these bots hanging around, which can join a game as an apparent client
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>that's like a year ago (x8)
14:29<dih>would it not be an idea to add a flag to each client
14:30<dih>and set it to false when a client sends the sync packet?
14:30<dih>or does the client decide weather to 'desync'
14:31<@peter1138>Or actually just not allow them.
14:32<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: how the hell did you manage to trigger that assertion
14:32<dih>peter1138, for that one has to know if a 'client' is a client or a bot
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i can reproduce it in my build when i replace wagons that have no engine
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>trying to find a clean trunk build ;)
14:33<frosch123>wagons without engine, ok...
14:34<frosch123>is that a feature of your custom build, or did I missed a trunk feature
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think any of my patches changed anything regarding autoreplace
14:35<dih>is there any info only a valid client sends to the server?
14:35<@peter1138>Mass-update button in the depot window?
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14:35<@peter1138>That'll upgrade wagons without an engine, won't it?
14:35<dih>or rather, only a valid client can 'know'
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, crashes in clean trunk r14128, too
14:36<frosch123>I thought it is not possible to upgrade wagons only
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yes
14:36<@peter1138>frosch123, so a new rewrite coming up? ;)
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14:36<Eddi|zuHause>i always use that button
14:36<@peter1138>dih, actually I thought the network connection chain of events was forced. Apparently not.
14:37<@peter1138>i.e. connect, download map, etc...
14:37<dih>well... yes
14:37<dih>the bots do exactly that
14:37<dih>and then desync is still determined by the client
14:37<dih>which the bots simply skip
14:38<dih>so i am hoping to find something even a valid spectator sends to the server, so that the server can determin if something is a bot or not
14:38<dih>and that should then be something only a real ottd client can 'know'
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, i could live with those not being upgraded at all
14:38<SmatZ>when you modify OTTD to work as bot
14:39<SmatZ>you will send correct sync values
14:39<dih>that is true
14:39<dih>but not if it's some python bot :-P
14:39<@peter1138>Any solution put in place can be worked around.
14:39<SmatZ>and you can place SendChatMessage("SPAM SPAM SPAM") to the main loop anyway
14:40<dih>how about adding thresholds?
14:40<@peter1138>Can bots bypass a server password?
14:40<dih>i.e. kick / ban client after x something in one month
14:40<@peter1138>Doesn't a desync happen way before then?
14:41<@peter1138>Well, unless it's a modified client...
14:41<dih>peter1138, problem is, when the server asks/waits for the password, the bot can still try to bruteforce the rcon password
14:42<dih>and the connection is kept open
14:42<dih>that is how those dodas did the spaming without being connected
14:43<dih>so something extra would be pretty good
14:43<dih>a threshold of 3 invalid rcon passwords from same ip = kick, 5 = ban
14:43<dih>(of course configurable)
14:44<dih>same with server password
14:44<dih>and not to accept any packet from a client if the server is waiting for a server / company password
14:44<dih>(*any packet = rcon / chat / etc)
14:45<SmatZ> so this?
14:45-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
14:45<SmatZ>or maybe even
14:45<SmatZ> if (cs->status != STATUS_ACTIVE) {
14:45<dih>not only that
14:45<yorick>< dih> a threshold of 3 invalid rcon passwords from same ip = kick, 5 = ban <-- how are you planning to reach 5 if it kicks on 3?
14:46<dih>i.e. as long as the server is running, memorize each invalid rcon attemt
14:46<dih>on a per ip basis
14:46<yorick>not the per ip solution
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>and ip-range
14:46<yorick>that changes far too often
14:46<dih>yorick: it's a bot
14:46<yorick>(proxies should be possible too, only they need to be made)
14:47<dih>besides, ip's dont change as often as you can try to send passwords in a single second
14:47*SmatZ thinks about botnets...
14:47<yorick>SmatZ: doesn't matter, I'll just connect and then bruteforce
14:48<dih>hence the threshold
14:48<SmatZ>yorick: yeah, but now you can bruteforce passworded server
14:48<yorick>I'll bruteforce the password first :-P
14:48<dih>bruteforce will take years if you 1. get kicked after 3 tries, 2. have to change your ip after 5
14:49-!-Dred_furst [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:49*SmatZ remembers applying wrong password at coop several times
14:49<yorick>dih: yea, lets introduce an ip table, maybe just instant ban instead of kick first
14:49<dih>yes - just not _that_ often SmatZ :-P
14:49<SmatZ>maybe 100 would suffice against bruteforcing
14:49<dih>at least not in a row or?
14:49<dih>yorick, hence configureable
14:50<dih>so invalid_password_kick = 0
14:50<dih>invalid_password_ban = 1
14:51<dih>reset the counter on success
14:51<yorick>maybe the banning system is flawed too
14:51<dih>and remove the ip from being memorized after ban
14:51<yorick>some people just get a proxy...
14:51<yorick>some can change ip
14:52<dih>yes - just not as fast as one can send packets
14:53<dih>it's not perfect, it's a start
14:55<frosch123>he, you cannot open the autoreplace gui without a single engine
14:55<yorick>now that is good :)
14:56<yorick>how about engines being autoreplaced also get autoreplaced when bought?
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yeah, i noticed :p
14:57<@peter1138>Write the patch for it.
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sad now, i lost half a day worth of playing... :(
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand why autosave was off
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>it was on weekly before...
14:58<yorick>half a day isn't that muhc
14:58<yorick>only a few real seconds ;)
14:59*yorick pats eddi
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>how can i kickban yorick?
15:00<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: You can kick him by tricking him into saying
15:00-!-Prof_Frink was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
15:00-!-Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
15:00<hylje>that's just kick however
15:01<yorick>or !players
15:01-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*Yorick@*] by peter1138
15:01-!-yorick was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [Like this?]
15:01-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*Yorick@*] by peter1138
15:01-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that'd work
15:01<yorick>yeah, like that
15:03<dih>would SEND_COMMAND(PACKET_CLIENT_ACK)(); not be a good start?
15:03<yorick>whare is that fore?
15:04<dih>it's not 'fore' anything :-P
15:04<nappe1>peter1138: this is quite hard... :D (Playing Nappe1-2008/05 build right now...) I had to in final testing adjust loan interval to £2500... with £10000 it was just suicide to company to be founded. :D
15:04<dih>it's _for_ making sure one could find out if a client is a bot or not
15:05<Prof_Frink>dih: openttd capcha?
15:06<Prof_Frink>Finding out if someone's a bot.
15:06<@peter1138>nappe1, pardon?
15:06<@peter1138>I have no idea what you're talking about.
15:07<yorick>dih: where is it for?
15:07<dih>Prof_Frink, yes, i am hoping to be able to distinguish
15:08<dih>server side of course ;-)
15:09<dih>yorick: I DONT KNOW YET
15:09<@peter1138>Born_Acorn! NewKittenAuth!
15:09<yorick>you'd need something that requires human intervention and is not solvable by noai ais
15:10<yorick>as soon as you know, tell me, maybe I shall accept the challenge
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>rail networks!
15:10-!-larsemil [] has joined #openttd
15:10<dih>yes, lay rails spelling out the password :-D
15:11<larsemil>i get this error when trying to connect to multiplayer: dbg: [net] Sync error detected!
15:11<yorick>detecting patterns
15:11<yorick>larsemil: what version, what server?
15:11<larsemil>yorick: 0.6.2 my brother on a 100/100 connection
15:11<dih>issue is only, that you have to already distinguish between spectator and bot
15:11<yorick>try upgrading
15:11<yorick>dih: and how would the server see if a password is correct?
15:11<larsemil>yorick: then i will not be able to play with them.
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>there was some site that had maths formulas as captcha
15:12<yorick>make them upgrade aswell
15:12<dih>yorick, I DONT KNOW YET ;-)
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>and i was like: "well, those are actually EASIER to solve for a bot"
15:12<yorick>Eddi: not if they are IN a captcha
15:12<yorick>only the rapidshare cats n dogs captcha is genious
15:12<yorick>but I cant solve it myself :-P
15:13<larsemil>yorick: well we are in the middle of a game
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: well, it was simple latex output, so you could easily have OCR'ed the formula
15:13<yorick>larsemil: then save
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>and then pipe it into a CAS
15:13<larsemil>well it is the latest stable version, shouldnt that do?
15:13<yorick>no :-p
15:14<yorick>nightlies without newgrfs are the only thing more stable
15:14<nckomodo>the thing with math problems is captchas is more of an obscurity thing
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>larsemil: some desync issues can be solved by saving, restarting the server, and loading the savegame again
15:15<yorick>dih: just don't come up with ideas if you don't have any :-P
15:15<larsemil>Eddi|zuHause: well now i got the connection dropped error.
15:16<yorick>dih: moving desync-test to server would be a solution, then you'd have to expand openttd
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a firewall issue
15:16<yorick>firewalls don't cause desyncs...
15:17<larsemil>this is how it is, first i connect to the game, it loads the whole map, it freezes, its moving and recieving info for 1 sec and then it bugs out
15:17<FauxFaux>I bet you could write a firewall that dropped specific packets. :)
15:17<yorick>larsemil: try to enable pause_on_join
15:17<larsemil>yorick: it is.
15:17-!-welshdragon [] has joined #openttd
15:17<yorick>it is what?
15:17<larsemil>everyones game pauses when someone joins
15:18<+glx>what's the map size?
15:18-!-welshdragon is now known as tireddragon
15:18-!-Zr40 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:18-!-tireddragon is now known as welshdragon
15:18-!-larsemil [] has quit [Quit: Changing server]
15:19-!-larsemil [] has joined #openttd
15:19<larsemil>anyone said anything?
15:19-!-Purno [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:20<larsemil>so there is no solution except getting a nightly?
15:20<hylje>does it happen in small maps too
15:20<+glx>autoreplace/autorenew is active ?
15:21<larsemil>well i have no idea, i just wanted to play a game with some friends. i changed nothing from the 0.6.2 package i downloaded
15:22<+glx>there are some known desync causes for 0.6.2 and autoreplace/autorenew is one of them
15:23-!-Yexo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:23<larsemil>i got another bug today, when building signals back in 1965 i got the newer ones. :D
15:24<eekee>patch option?
15:25<larsemil>well i give up, no luck connection
15:25<larsemil>had some problems in the beginning but then i came in and it was stable for 2 hours, now its frakkin with me again
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>i set the time the new signals appear to 1948
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>which is rather *insert dreaded r word here*
15:31*orudge tesco, honest
15:32-!-yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [ok]
15:32-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
15:32<@Belugas>NTO FAIR!!!
15:32<@Belugas>I awas bout to do it!
15:32<+glx>I was faster ;)
15:32<yorick>sorry TB
15:32*yorick gives cookie
15:34*murray snaps the cookie in the passing
15:34<murray>nom nom nom
15:35*yorick NOMs with murray
15:35<yorick>and it was poisoned
15:36*Forked waves
15:36<Forked>hows the cargodest thingy test going?
15:37<dih>yorick: i am thinking about a solution, not telling you what solution i have
15:38<Forked>sooo.. whats the kick count on yorick?
15:38<dih>this channel only or all others on this network?
15:40<Forked>I think this will do..
15:40<SmatZ>13 in my logs
15:40<SmatZ>not much
15:40<yorick>SmatZ: you grepped?
15:41<yorick>does that include the "Did you bring snow yet" kicks?
15:41<SmatZ>grep -c "yorick has been kicked from the channel by" *#openttd.log
15:42<Ammler>Forked: join
15:42<+glx>do the same for noai ;)
15:42<SmatZ>glx: only 1 occurence :-/
15:42<SmatZ>maybe my logs are too little
15:42<yorick>noai, there are the tbs
15:45<TrueBrain>SmatZ: yes
15:46<TrueBrain>I have a total of 32
15:47<dih>include openttdcoop openttdFairPlay (what else have i forgotten?)
15:47<TrueBrain>(noai just had 11)
15:48<@Rubidium>dih: #openttdstupidpythonbot
15:48<TrueBrain>32 are the channels Dorpsgek is in ;)
15:48<dih>Rubidium, lol :-)
15:49-!-Zr40 [] has joined #openttd
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15:55<yorick>I haven't been kicked from #openttdstupidpythonbot
15:55<Ammler>kick is quite stupid as most have autojoin...
15:55<dih>kick is not stupid
15:55<dih>kick shows you a limit
15:55<dih>before you get to ban
15:55<+glx>Sacro doesn't have autojoin ;)
15:55<Ammler>me too
15:57<@Belugas>"me neither"
15:57<Ammler>yeah, thanks :-)
15:57<@Rubidium>I think mode Q is better
15:57-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
15:57<+glx>registered and identified only ?
15:57<@Rubidium>no, "global" /ignore
15:57<+glx>ha right
15:57<yorick>mode Q = quiet
15:57<dih>no - that is mode q
15:58<dih>and that works very well actually
15:58<Prof_Frink>mode Q = Gadgets!
15:59-!-mode/#openttd [+q *!*] by Rubidium
15:59<@Rubidium>like so :)
15:59<dih>uh uh - what you say? i cannot hear you :-P
15:59-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@] has joined #openttd
16:00-!-mode/#openttd [-q *!*] by Rubidium
16:00<yorick>I said nothing
16:00<yorick>I didn't even notice ^^
16:01*SmatZ wonders what would happen if yorick removed nm from all other users :)
16:01<SmatZ>owner + master
16:01<yorick>you mean something like @seen *
16:02<SmatZ>ok maybe my client interpretes wrong what Rubidium just did
16:03<SmatZ>hmm is it correct to say "wrong" or "wrongly"/
16:03<+glx>I'd say "wrongly" in this case
16:03<yorick>what did it interpret
16:03<SmatZ>[21:59:03] *** Rubidium gives channel owner privileges to *!*
16:03<+glx>your client failed
16:03<yorick>your client wrongly interprets
16:04<yorick>it failed
16:04<dih>SmatZ: what client?
16:04<Ammler>[21:59] *** Rubidium gibt *!* Besitzerstatus.
16:04<yorick>dih: ctcp version?
16:04<dih>SmatZ is sitting on our bouncer?
16:04<@Belugas>isn't it "wrongfully"?
16:04<SmatZ>dih: yeah :)
16:04<+glx>hmm +q is indeed for owner
16:05<yorick>Konverstation fail :)
16:05<SmatZ>dih: I don't filter ctcp version requests
16:05<+glx>and +a for protect
16:05<dih>the bouncer did not reply to my ctcp version request :-P
16:06<yorick>it did to mine
16:06<+glx>but on oftc +o is the max
16:06<SmatZ>[22:05:00] [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from SmatZ: Konversation 1.1 (C) 2002-2008 by the Konversation team.
16:06<yorick>=== CTCP version reply “Konversation 1.1 (C) 2002-2008 by the Konversation team” from SmatZ
16:07<dih>ah - i found it
16:07<dih>i configured the bouncer to filter them for me :-)
16:08<dih>you got the reply :-P
16:09<dih>now - back to detecting bots
16:09<dih>Rubidium, what would your gut-feeling be to this?
16:09*Prof_Frink points at DorpsGek
16:11<dih>yes - well done Prof_Frink, but i mean inside a game
16:11<dih>and more automatic ;-)
16:11<@Rubidium>dih: well, ban them?
16:12<dih>how to detect them?
16:12<@Rubidium>you can't
16:12<dih>nothing one could do?
16:12<Prof_Frink>LIE_MODE=0 Are you a bot?
16:13<yorick>dih: how can you detect IRC bots?
16:13<dih>moving desync detection to the server side
16:13<@Rubidium>that's nasty to do
16:13<yorick>people will port openttd to python :-p
16:14<yorick>SpComb: I already did the networking for you :)
16:14<SpComb>yorick: let me see your code
16:14<SpComb>but not now, later
16:14<dih>no you did not yorick
16:14<dih>you did the networking for yourself and now want SpComb to use your work
16:14<yorick>dih: that's basically the same, but seen in a more true way
16:16<yorick>and I did not really do the openttd interface...I'm mainly working on the bot itself :-p
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16:19<dih>Rubidium, what do you think of configurable thresholds to stop bruteforcing
16:19<yorick>I think it's a nice idea
16:20<yorick>but I'm not rub...and I shall not say anything
16:20<@Rubidium>dih: you mean: failed password == kick, no rcon without being fully joined to the map?
16:20<dih>or 3x failed rcon = kick
16:20<yorick>I would like the failed rcon 3x = kick
16:21<dih>+ 5 x failed rcon = ban
16:21<dih>based on ip
16:21<yorick>no rcon without being fully joined is silly
16:21<dih>it is not
16:21<yorick>is not it?
16:21<dih>you wanna be able to rcon while the server is awaiting the server password ?
16:21<yorick>I sometimes use rcon to control the server while waiting for the map
16:22-!-Kasceh [] has quit []
16:22<yorick>and I wanna be able to use rcon before sending the PACKET_CLIENT_JOIN packet
16:22<dih>yorick: just exactly that is the problem
16:22<dih>people like using exactly that stage
16:22<dih>or at least _can_ use exactly that
16:23<dih>to brute force?
16:23<yorick>then add the limit there
16:23<SpComb>the only of openttd that I care about is the networking
16:23<SpComb>so I'd jus rewrite it anyways :P
16:24<@Belugas>yeah! let's do that!! with XML
16:24<yorick>Belugas: let's do what?
16:24<@Belugas>i guess yorick has SpComb on /ignore :)
16:24<@Rubidium>yeah, and SOAP and RPC
16:25<@Belugas>or he need glasses
16:25<dih>yeah - nice
16:25<yorick>I guess I have
16:25<dih>why not include an ftp server to upload savegames
16:25<dih>and while we are at it....
16:25<yorick>dih: is on the goals list...
16:25<dih>you are on the goals list
16:26*Prof_Frink was implemented in 0.5
16:26<yorick>a yorick-less openttd python framework
16:26-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
16:26<Prof_Frink>ylopf. I like it.
16:26<yorick>Prof_Frink caused too much trouble and was removed from any future versions
16:27<dih>how boring
16:29-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: boring Poef! there you have it!]
16:31*eekee converts an old game from standard trains to ukrs to aleviate boredom
16:34<@Belugas>eekee, want something that will REALLY aleviate boredom?
16:34*eekee ponders this
16:35*TrueBrain makes a static link to this, and sees it doesn't resolve ..
16:37<TrueBrain> <- I still think it is cool people reverse engineer such protocols and reclone a game back into existence :)
16:39<eekee>yeah ^_^
16:39-!-[com]buster [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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16:44<eekee>when I look at the source I get a bit intimidated, not knowing where to start, and I've never really had anything to do with c++ either
16:45*davis- gn
16:45-!-davis- [] has quit [Quit: ( :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: )]
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16:45<TrueBrain>I am proud to let you guys know that 54% of the OpenTTD webpage vistors use FireFox :)
16:46*Prof_Frink doesn't
16:46<TrueBrain>eekee: if you want to touch (any) source, you need to have a goal :)
16:46<TrueBrain>then the rest comes when you go
16:46<nckomodo>I keep wanting to modify OpenTTD and add planes that can go to waypoints and bomb things
16:46<nckomodo>but I wouldnt know where to start
16:46<TrueBrain>nckomodo: and what do you want to bomb? :)
16:46<eekee>TrueBrain: this is true, and my goals tend to be large
16:46<nckomodo>bomb whatever
16:47<TrueBrain>eekee: well, I started out doing FaceSelector for OpenTTD (was never added, as it sucked :p)
16:47<TrueBrain>next thing was bigmaps :p
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>i don't use firefox either...
16:47<TrueBrain>so that doesn't matter ;) Just takes longer :)
16:47<nckomodo>actually I think that'd be a fun modification to OpenTTD, a wartime sort of thing
16:47<nckomodo>trucks with AA guns, etc etc
16:48<TrueBrain>nckomodo: you might want to load up an other game
16:48<eekee>TrueBrain: I've been wishing for elevated light rail / monorail, lately
16:48-!-Zahl [] has quit [Quit: (~_~]"]
16:48<TrueBrain>eekee: haha, that might be too hard to start with yes :p
16:49<eekee>thought so :D
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>try shunting :p
16:49<nckomodo>TrueBrain maybe, but I still think it could be fun if you do it right
16:49<eekee>shunting would be nice
16:50<eekee>hmm for wartime you'd need ability for vehicles (inc waggons) to shoot at each other, and several new flavours of crash and burn. doesn't sound too awful
16:50<TrueBrain>nckomodo: I doubt there is a 'right' in this case :)
16:50<TrueBrain>hmm .. mapgen .. that is a project I should revive ..
16:51<eekee>oh my nephews love playing dirty. like, building a short bit of rail across a road where their oponent has trucks, and running an engine across when they see a truck coming
16:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14240 /trunk/docs/obg_format.txt: -Doc: add a few pointers/"howto"-ish lines to the obg format documentation about what it does and does not do and how you should fill the data.
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16:59<Eddi|zuHause>oh i remember doing that too... back when i was 12...
16:59-!-rortom [] has joined #openttd
17:00<eekee>they do it to each other & like it. *shrug* :D
17:03<TrueBrain>that will pass :p
17:04<SmatZ>they enjoy the game, that's important
17:04<eekee>TrueBrain: they're 20 & 24 ;)
17:04<eekee>honestly I don't really 'get' the finer points of playing fair. maybe they're the same
17:05<SmatZ>it is too easy to play unfair in OTTD
17:05<SmatZ>furthermore when you can modify sources...
17:05<eekee>well, it's a business sim...
17:05<eekee>are you suggesting something SmatZ? ^^;
17:06<SmatZ>just you can automate some destroying actions
17:06<SmatZ>though maybe it is more fun to flatten the land manually
17:06<Prof_Frink>peter1138! NewOFT!
17:08-!-AlexFili [] has joined #openttd
17:09<AlexFili>I'm having some major problems with online multiplayer
17:09<AlexFili>after about 10 minutes I get disconnected and my router stops accepting connections for some reason
17:09<+glx>try ethernet connection
17:09<AlexFili>im using a wireless router
17:09<AlexFili>with a wireless network card in the pc
17:10<+glx>still, try wire
17:10<AlexFili>also when im running openttd, my DS and PSP cant connect to the router
17:10-!-Wezz6400 is now known as Guest5127
17:10-!-Wezz6400 [] has joined #openttd
17:10<+glx>if that works the problem is wifi and not the router
17:10<AlexFili>sounds like openTTD is overloading my router
17:10-!-mortal` [] has quit [Quit: [FATAL] Client error: Memory leak - More RAM needed. More! More! More!]
17:10<TrueBrain>yeah, it tends to use a lot of bandwidth (lol, that was sarcastic :p)
17:10-!-Sacro [~Ben@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:11<TrueBrain>OpenTTD is most likely the most network friendly application you have on your computer :)
17:11<AlexFili>thats weird
17:11<TrueBrain>any Torrent application requires MUCH more ;)
17:11-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-187-179.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:11<AlexFili>well either way, something with openttd makes my router crash, and i wish i knew what
17:11<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: I dunno. ls?
17:12<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: sorry?
17:12<AlexFili>does it matter if the router is right next to the pc?
17:12<TrueBrain>reminds me, does OpenTTD already support upnp? :)
17:12<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: ls is probably more network-friendly than openttd
17:12<AlexFili>whats ls?
17:12<+glx>TrueBrain: no upnp support
17:13<Prof_Frink>AlexFili: dir.
17:13<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: and is that a network application?
17:13<TrueBrain>glx: hmmm :)
17:13<Prof_Frink>You never said that.
17:13<fjb>Prof_Frink: Also when you are using nfs?
17:13<TrueBrain>[23:11] <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is most likely the most **network** friendly application you have on your computer :)
17:13<TrueBrain>you should learn to read my friend :)
17:13<+glx>btw wireless needs some distance between source and receiver
17:13<eekee>Prof_Frink: try ls -R on a large repo served over 9P
17:14<@Rubidium>or over ssh
17:14<Prof_Frink>network friendly **application**
17:14<AlexFili>this problem never happened with my old router
17:14<Prof_Frink>Not netork friendly network application
17:14<AlexFili>only since i got a new BT homehub
17:14<TrueBrain>sigh ...
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17:14<Prof_Frink>Bless you
17:14<eekee>sounds like the router
17:14<TrueBrain>AlexFili: I doubt very much OpenTTD is the reason for your problem :)
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17:15<AlexFili>TrueBrain this doesnt happen with any other application
17:15<AlexFili>Counter Strike, torrents, you name it
17:15<AlexFili>it only happens when i play openTTD
17:15<Prof_Frink>AlexFili: Is this the BT homehub that would crash if someone uses BBC iplayer?
17:15<@Rubidium>AlexFili: that's just luck I reckon
17:16<AlexFili>i can play iplayer fine
17:16<TrueBrain>it is like blaiming the Minin on the highway for the traffic-jam where it is standing in .. 10 km from the start of the jam :)
17:17<TrueBrain>Minin = Mini
17:17<Prof_Frink>Mini = Micra
17:17<AlexFili>:( the problem only happens when I play openTTD
17:17<eekee>Mini != Micra!
17:17<Prof_Frink>Except it *is* the micra's fault.
17:17<@Rubidium>AlexFili: and it started happening since you got a new router, right?
17:17<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: there is always a chance it caused a traffic jam, drove back to the end of the line, and sat in the jam it created itself
17:17<TrueBrain>possibilities there are always :)
17:18<AlexFili>thats correct
17:18<@Rubidium>AlexFili: ANY hardware that OpenTTD crashes means that the controlling software of that hardware is flawed.
17:18<AlexFili>well for whatever reason this only happens with openTTD
17:18<SmatZ>AlexFili: my old router had bug that it locked up when I had too many open connections...
17:19<@peter1138>Hmm, my plan for generic action 0 property skipping fails.
17:19<TrueBrain>SmatZ: which you would notice with any torrent application .. but with OpenTTD? :p
17:19<SmatZ>or when I opened too many TCP connections in too short time
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17:19<SmatZ>TrueBrain: I don't know if torrent is UDP or TCP based...
17:19<SmatZ>though... how many connections do you have open in OTTD...
17:19<@Rubidium>so the router can't handle 100+ UDP packets in transit?
17:19<SmatZ>ok ok :)
17:19<TrueBrain>TCP, mostly
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17:20<AlexFili>actually that reminds me
17:20<AlexFili>i havent used config on this new router
17:20<AlexFili>I guess i should see if 3979 port is blocked lol
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17:20<TrueBrain>SmatZ: OpenTTD? 1 UDP socket, 1 TCP socket, for a server, and each client connected of course :)
17:21<+glx>for a client 1 TCP once joined
17:21<SmatZ>TrueBrain: when you open the server list and request newgrf info to be sent, this all is done via UDP, right?
17:21<SmatZ>ok :)
17:21<TrueBrain>SmatZ: and 1 UDP socket, to be exact .. but UDP doesn't bind, so that doesn't really count ;)
17:22<TrueBrain>(UDP isn't really a connection ;))
17:22<TrueBrain>a stateless mean of communication .. :p
17:22<SmatZ>yeah :) that's why am asking if it is done via TCP :)
17:22<+glx>it's like using a megaphone?
17:22<SmatZ>I hope I never said that
17:22<TrueBrain>glx: lol, nice comparison :)
17:22<SmatZ>:-D megaphone = broadcast ;)
17:23<eekee>broadcast udp, because some of the recipients may not get the message properly
17:23<TrueBrain>but for OpenTTD to kill any sane TCP stack .. well .. there needs to be something very wrnog in that case :p
17:24<AlexFili>yeah i didnt understand it either
17:24<@Rubidium>just complain to BT that your router crashes reliably
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17:26<AlexFili>I dont suppose anyone here has a BT Homehub?
17:26<+glx>I have a freebox v4 and it works very well
17:26*eekee won't ever have one, now :)
17:26<AlexFili>im just wondering how i get past this user/password query
17:26<AlexFili>admin/admin doesnt work
17:27<eekee>oh it might be "root" for both user and pass
17:27<+glx>press the button
17:27<AlexFili>nope, its not root
17:27<+glx>(livebox use this trick)
17:27<+glx>or is it 9box
17:27<AlexFili>"Your BT Home Hub is preset with Broadband user name and password for automatic connection to the BT Broadband network.
17:27<AlexFili>You can use this page to change the default settings if requested by your Broadband service provider. Please check with your service provider if you need to enter alternative settings and what these settings are.
17:27<AlexFili>Important: If your Hub is already connected to the Internet, you will first need to disconnect before being able to change the username and password."
17:28<AlexFili>damn, guess i need to d/c
17:28<AlexFili>well thanks for all the help
17:28<AlexFili>hopefully i'll be back
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17:31<fjb>If we will ever see him again?
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17:32<eekee>heh :)
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17:34<TrueBrain>fjb: I am bombing his router, I doubt that :p
17:34<fjb>Ping of death? :-)
17:35<Forked>"your hub" ?
17:35<TrueBrain>I have enough bandwidth to do so ... :p
17:35<TrueBrain>I remember the early days of Hotmail
17:35<TrueBrain>some friend was bragging that Hotmail had the best filters
17:35<TrueBrain>it was impossible to mailbomb him
17:36<TrueBrain>the next day he had 100,000 emails in his box
17:36<TrueBrain>(in those days, there were no such things as spam-filters, greylisting, and other 'protections')
17:36<fjb>Too bad all that old tricks are not working anymore. Was fun. Ping of death or later ping with payload "+++ath0". :-)
17:36<TrueBrain>and I happened to have access to a 100 mbit connection ...
17:36<Forked>heh us robotics modems..
17:36<TrueBrain>somehow we never became friends .. makes you wonder ..
17:36<@Rubidium>the good old times of jolt :)
17:36<TrueBrain>fjb: you would be supprised how easy it is for me to ping you to death
17:37<TrueBrain>if ICMP ping fails, I always have the ways of TCP pings
17:37-!-Wezz6400 [] has quit []
17:37<fjb>Not US Robotics. Rockwell chipset in modems.
17:37<TrueBrain>(just TCP pings requires more bandwidth from me, as I don't kill your upload, but your download, which takes slightly longer)
17:38<fjb>TrueBrain: Mircrosoft fixed the ipstack of Windows, so no ping of death anymore... :-(
17:39<TrueBrain>you want me to try it at yours? :p
17:39<@peter1138>That payload of +++ath0 always surprised me.
17:39<@peter1138>The fact it worked...
17:40<fjb>Try it. But what you are talking about is nor classical ping of death where you needed only one packet to shoot Windows down.
17:40<@peter1138>No, I mean surprised that ppp allowed it to go straight through for ICMP, but obviously didn't for TCP...
17:41<TrueBrain>fjb: ah, that ping of death
17:41<TrueBrain>you are right about that :)
17:41<fjb>peter1138: Yes, the payload was echoed back. And the stupid Rockwel chips didn't wait for the pause between "+++" and "ath0".
17:42<@Rubidium>fjb: jolt is a much nicer way of teasing Windows users
17:42<fjb>TrueBrain: And you are free to flood my firewall.
17:43<fjb>What is jolt? I'm not in the Windows shooting business anymore.
17:43<Brianetta>A player on my server just accidentally auto-replaced his Deltics with 0-4-0 saddle tanks
17:43<@Rubidium>fjb: google for jolt.c
17:43<Brianetta>He doesn't have funds to undo this
17:43<Brianetta>we're all giggling rather
17:45<fjb>Rubidium: Yoah, jolt is that ping of death that I was talking about. Just didn't know it under that name.
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17:46<@Rubidium>fjb: but it isn't deadly; okay the mouse pointer can't be moved while under the influence of jolt, but when stopped it'll return to "normal" operations within a minute
17:47<@Rubidium>though usually the people getting jolted reset their computer before you stop jolt
17:48<fjb>You could make Windows 3.11 blusscreen with oversized packtes.
17:48<fjb>TrueBrain: When do you start to ping me?
17:49*Rubidium wonders what kind of connection fjb has
17:49*fjb smiles.
17:52<Brianetta>Rubidium: I can make most desyncs go away by disabling all newgrfs.
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17:53<Brianetta>Unfortunately, two non-overlapping sub-sets of newgrfs cause problems.
17:53<Brianetta>so I can't point my finger at any one.
17:56<fjb>Point your fingers at both.
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>don't point naked fingers at dressed newgrfs
17:58<@Rubidium>Brianetta: is the waypoint issue caused by any of those subsets, or also without newgrfs?
17:58-!-Jerimiah40 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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17:58<@Rubidium>and what are the subsets?
17:59<Brianetta>All but stations, certain trains but no stations, no trains but plenty of stations
18:00<Brianetta>Rubidium: Currently, with no station newgrfs, we've had no waypoint sesyncs to my knowledge
18:00<Brianetta>but plenty of others
18:01<Brianetta>First big desync happened as I ordered road reconstruction on a town full of trams
18:01<Brianetta>One of the trams got stuck, too
18:01<fjb>peter1138: :-) TTDP unable to load certain old saves?
18:02<@Rubidium>Brianetta: did the tram thingy desync everybody or only newly joined people?
18:03<Brianetta>It desynced three of five players
18:03<Brianetta>we've had sporadic desyncs ever since
18:03<eekee>I've had ottd mess up save games saved with a particular nightly before. ^^; It's fixed now, but I'm currently playing another save that has ufo shadows all over the place from another nightly
18:03<Brianetta>I have not desynced yet, and I've been on and off
18:04<@Rubidium>anything different between the three desyncees and the two who didn't desync?
18:04<@Rubidium>like different OS/compiler etc
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18:05<@peter1138>Not the old out of bounds array access..
18:05<Brianetta>Nothing I'm aware of. I think all the desyned players are XP users.
18:05<Brianetta>Oh no
18:05<Brianetta>thinglie's a Fedora user
18:06<@Rubidium>and the non-desyncing users?
18:07<Brianetta>Mixture. I'm Ubuntu Linux, Michael's Vista
18:07<@Rubidium>did that Michael compile OpenTTD himself?
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18:07<Brianetta>I'm running a self-compiled SVN checkout, as is the server
18:08<Brianetta>Michael is using the official download
18:10<Brianetta>I'm going to run without trams or newstatsw in the next game.
18:10<Brianetta>This means I'll have no newgrf waypoints
18:10<Brianetta>and no trams, clearly
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18:19*peter1138 > sleep
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18:31<@Rubidium>newstatsw is the only newgrf with waypoints?
18:31<@Rubidium>can't quickly find anything suspicious in it
18:32<eekee>also uk waypoints set?
18:33<@Rubidium>that isn't used on Brianetta's server
18:34<Brianetta>We'll see. If the waypoints thing crops up without newstatsw we'll know it's not because the waypoints were graphically overridden.
18:35<Brianetta>oh no
18:35<Brianetta> davidpk212 has quoted me in his sig
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18:35<Brianetta>[All] Brianetta: Nobody shifts gems and christmas cards like me.
18:35<Pikka>well put
18:35<Brianetta>That was me, with my passenger-free Deltic-based valuables and mail line
18:36<Brianetta>Pikka: Does your suburban renewal touch hotels?
18:36<Pikka>if you mean the big two-tile ones with the pool on the roof, they're gone, yes.
18:36<Brianetta>er, not quite
18:36<Brianetta>allow me to upload some shots
18:37<Pikka>they should be :P
18:39<Pikka>woo, desync :O
18:40<Brianetta>yeah )-:
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18:42<Brianetta>Can you spot it? (:
18:43<Brianetta>I created that company after Pikka called me a back seat engineer
18:43<eekee>good name
18:44<eekee>hmm no tree grfs on grf crawler
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18:48<eekee>there is at least 1 tree replacement grf 'out there' isn't there?
18:49<Progman>stolen trees
18:49<eekee>o lol what's in it?
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18:50<eekee>(I'm not surprised if they're 'stolen' from some other game, there's a heck of a lot of tree sprites iirc)
18:51*SpComb yawns
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19:57<Tekky>in the OpenTTD source code, there is the following define in stdafx.h:
19:57<Tekky>#define cpp_offsetof(s, m) (((size_t)&reinterpret_cast<const volatile char&>((((s*)(char*)8)->m))) - 8)
19:57<Tekky>Why not simply use the ANSI offsetof operator?
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19:58<Tekky>I don't understand why this ugly hack is required.
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20:02<+glx>for saveload code
20:05<SmatZ>it doesn't work for unions iirc
20:07<SmatZ>hmm no
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20:07<SmatZ>maybe too
20:14<TrueBrain>fjb: sorry fjb, I was trying to pick up a girl .. kind of succeeded ;) Now it is time to get some sleep ;)
20:24<Tekky>glx,SmatZ: I replaced cpp_offsetof with the ANSI offsetof macro and it works perfectly. However, I see that Microsoft Visual C++ implements this macro nearly the same way as OpenTTD does :)
20:25-!-nappe1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:25<Tekky>So I guess there is little point in removing this ugly hack..... :)
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20:38<fjb>TrueBrain: Never mind. Have fun with the girl.
20:38<fjb>Good night.
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20:41<SmatZ>congrats TrueBrain :)
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23:27<nicfer>one question, will work the opengfxcr.grf and opengfxhr.grf on 0.6.2?
23:31<DaleStan>nicfer: Try it and see?
23:33<nicfer>oh, if I rename them like the original files I get the 'Wrong GRF files' error but it works anyway
---Logclosed Thu Sep 04 00:00:59 2008