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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-09-04

---Logopened Thu Sep 04 00:00:59 2008
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02:09<@peter1138>Rubidium, ComposeWaypointStation()
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02:15<@peter1138>Hmm, can't see any variable used that would be uninitialized.
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03:44*roboboy hopes cargodest will compile this time
03:45<roboboy>I pointed visual studio to my boost folder for includes and it did not include it
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03:57<Kloopy>Celestar: I just got a crash on the cargodests binary build. I was looking at a treeview window and just as I went to click, the last passenger was loaded on to a train. When I clicked my mouse, it was on the space where the + was just showing before. It crashed as soon as I clicked.
03:57<Kloopy>Celestar: Good morning, too. :))
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04:19<Celestar>Kloopy: heh ok
04:19<Celestar>I'll check it over the weekend
04:22<Kloopy>Cool :)
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04:26*roboboy wonders what has changed in the new version of cargodest
04:28<TrueBrain>code
04:29<@peter1138>Hmm, I wonder if any replacement graphics set would use its own palette...
04:30<Celestar>interesting
04:30*Celestar looks at the advantages of "fixed track" vs. conventional sleeper-based tracks
04:31<@peter1138>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Feste_Fahrbahn_FFBögl.jpg/400px-Feste_Fahrbahn_FFBögl.jpg < Like that?
04:31*TrueBrain looks at his breakfast
04:31<Celestar>peter1138: something like that
04:31<Celestar>according to the DB, fixed track costs less than 10% in maintenance
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04:42<@Rubidium>peter1138: ComposeWaypointStation can't be the cause of the missing waypoints
04:43<@Rubidium>as no newgrf stuff is called at that time
04:43<Celestar>:o The Velaro took 25 minutes for 118km on a test run in China
04:44<Celestar>average speed of 283km/h
04:44*roboboy hopes this time cargodest compiles
04:45<roboboy>!logs
04:45<SpComb>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
04:45<TrueBrain>[09:44] * roboboy hopes cargodest will compile this time
04:45<TrueBrain>[10:45] * roboboy hopes this time cargodest compiles
04:45<TrueBrain>I smell a bot :p
04:46<roboboy>nopes
04:46<roboboy>ive been trying to compile it a few times
04:46<TrueBrain>;0
04:46<TrueBrain>;)
04:46<roboboy>and its failed everytime
04:46<roboboy>with boost
04:46<TrueBrain>took me 2 minutes to set up MSVC to understand where Boost was
04:47<roboboy>It isnt including boost
04:47<roboboy>Ive tried adding boost to the include folders list and it didnt seem to like it
04:48<roboboy>ive tried sticking it in the visual studio include dir
04:48<roboboy>otherwise I have no idea how to fix it
04:48<TrueBrain>I just put it in the include-dir the rest of my shit was in .. and that was enough
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04:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: matthijs * r14241 /trunk/os/debian/changelog: -Fix [Debian]: Remove an extra ~ in the Debian version.
04:54<Forked>same thing I did with it in mingw32
04:54<blathijs>TrueBrain: It's annoying that the listing of revisions on binaries.openttd.org is not sorted usefully...
04:56<TrueBrain>blathijs: we know; the new site will solve that for you :)
04:56<TrueBrain>(binaries isn't for direct access ;))
04:57<roboboy>no erors so far its sitting at linking and generating code
04:57<TrueBrain>oeh, time to do some studying .. bbl :)
04:57-!-fjb [~frank@p5485C814.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
04:57<fjb>Hello
05:01*Celestar wonders whether any high-speed track in Europe reaches break even
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05:07<Celestar>New track Nuremburg-Erfurt: Expected cost: 5 billion EUR, expected annual income 40 million EUR. It takes 125 YEARS to pay off :o
05:08<@peter1138>Hehe
05:08<@peter1138>Is that subsidised?
05:08<Celestar>peter1138: there is no railway system in Europe that isn't heavily subsidised, at least no when it comes to transporting passengers
05:09<Celestar>Bringing the travel time from Munich to Berlin from 8 hours (1992) to 4 hours (2018) costs around 12 billion EUR.
05:09<@peter1138>I mean the costs and incomes.
05:09<Celestar>peter1138: net costs and incomes.
05:10<Celestar>if you want this to pay off in 50 years, You'd need 240 million bucks in income per year.
05:10<Celestar>That's 650000 EUR per day
05:10<roboboy>hm my compile has not moved from linking and generating code
05:10<Celestar>considering an average round trip price of 200 EUR, That'd be 3300 passengers per day.
05:11<Celestar>(1.2 million passengers annually)
05:11*roboboy wonders if he should cancle it and look at the log
05:11<roboboy>or shall I leave it to go for a bit longer
05:11<@peter1138>Hmm
05:12<@peter1138>3300 passengers per day doesn't seem excessive.
05:12<Celestar>peter1138: no, that's a bit less than the airlines have on the route
05:13<Celestar>But: 1) with 4 hours, only about half the passengers will switch to the train, and 2) that's only construction cost.
05:13<Celestar>no maintenance, no staff, no rolling stock
05:14<Celestar>peter1138: MUC-BER (airlines) have about 4000 passengers per day (average)
05:15<Celestar>MUC-HAM almost 5000
05:15<Celestar>MUC-LON 3000 (=
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05:20<roboboy>yey it compiled
05:21<roboboy>I wont download the latest source yet though as im on average over my download limit for the month
05:23<blathijs>TrueBrain: Ah, right :-)
05:25<fjb>Oh, cool, somebody doesn't find the "My Documents" folder on his Vista PC.
05:27<@peter1138>Woo, new phone...
05:27<Celestar>?
05:28<@peter1138>Switched from a 7940 to a 7971.
05:28<@peter1138>Useful as the screen is now backlit.
05:28<Celestar>I see
05:44<Celestar>http://www.railwaygazette.com/uploads/media/RailwayGazetteWorldSpeedSurvey2007_02.pdf
05:44<Celestar>interesting (=
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05:55<Ammler>fjb: hasn't vista the location independent of localization?
05:56<@peter1138>Pardon?
05:56<@peter1138>It's C:\Users\ for me.
05:57<fjb>Don't know, but you should be able to find the directory where your documents are stored.
05:57<Ammler>ha, not that easy
05:57<Ammler>it is c:\Users but in germany you won't find that in the explrer
05:57<Ammler>where it is called Benutzer or something like that
05:59<Ammler>dunno, if it is easier now :-)
06:00<Forked>%userprofile%\..\
06:00<Forked>:p
06:05<Brianetta>[10:08] <Celestar> peter1138: there is no railway system in Europe that isn't heavily subsidised, at least no when it comes to transporting passengers
06:05<Brianetta>Celestar: Tyne & Wear Metro pays for itself from fares alone
06:06<Celestar>Brianetta: sorry .. I mean no high-speed-long-distance railway system
06:07<Celestar>I'm pretty sure local, high capacity railways can be quite profitable
06:12<Brianetta>Actually, Tyne & Wear is mostly alone in this
06:12<Brianetta>It's an example that railways can fund themselves
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06:12<Brianetta>They are asking for government help to replace their rolling stock in 2020
06:13<Brianetta>but generally, they're self sufficient
06:14<Brianetta>also:
06:14<Brianetta>http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/connect/Nexus/Nexus/News/News+archive/2008/Nexus+news+-+Metro+sets+new+record+for+running+trains+on+time.
06:14<Brianetta>"Metro sets new record for running trains on time."
06:14<Brianetta>Not that you couldn't glean that from the URL.
06:15<Celestar>The TGV Est has a scheduled AVERAGE speed of 280km/h from Lorraine to Champagne :o
06:15<Brianetta>Bear in mind that T&W Metro isn't a franchise operator; they're just comparing themselves favourbaly with them
06:16<Celestar>the Bayerische Oberlandbahn is apparently also self-sufficient
06:16<Brianetta>Makes one wonder what the overhead is
06:17<Celestar>overhead of what? (=
06:17<Brianetta>Clearly, Beeching-like cuts aren't necessary to improve profitability (he'd have chopped half the Tyne & Wear stations, if they'd been around, and he wanted to axe the branch line it replaces)
06:18<Celestar>Brianetta: no
06:18<Celestar>Brianetta: competition and a basic sense of market economy is needed
06:18<Brianetta>The big industrial revolution companies showed that railways could be private and profitable
06:19<Brianetta>They had competition, but not as much as you might think. There really was only one way to get from London to Newcastle.
06:19<Brianetta>Trouble with railways in Britain is that there's an outsourcing culture
06:20<Celestar>if I offer the customers an 6h-ticket from Munich to Berlin for 220 EUR round trip, and the airline wants the same price for a 1-hour flight, I have a problem.
06:20<Brianetta>Why do something yourself if you can pay some other company to do it?
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06:20<Celestar>Brianetta: the question should be: why pay something your self if you can make the taxpayers pay it
06:20<Brianetta>Airlines charging like that will be lucky to continue operating more than ten years
06:21<Celestar>Brianetta: 220 EUR for Munich-Berlin is expensive
06:21<Celestar>I've been on the route for half that price
06:21<dih>Brianetta: http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TclCmd/dict.htm
06:21<dih>:-)
06:21<Brianetta>It's comparable to our top fares
06:21<@Rubidium>Celestar: ofcourse the plane takes off at the moment and place you want to enter (like central Munich) it and lands at the destination you need to be (like central Berlin)
06:21<Brianetta>Newcastle to London, if you buy the ticket that morning, is a £140 return ticket
06:21<Celestar>Rubidium: I don't live on the station either.
06:22<Brianetta>If you buy in advance, you *might* be able to get two £19 singles
06:22<Celestar>Rubidium: plus 6 hour gives me 5 hours time ahead
06:22<roboboy>where are the lang files placed after a compile
06:22<Celestar>roboboy: search for .lng?=
06:22<dih>lang/ ?
06:23<Brianetta>Last time I used an aeroplane, the 40 minute flight required check-in at least an hour in advance.
06:23<roboboy>i geese that will do
06:23<Celestar>Rubidium: I need 1.5 hours overhead using a plane compared to a train.
06:23<Brianetta>*and* I couldn't take some stuff.
06:23<Celestar>thus, the Train should be no more than 2 hours slower for the trip
06:23<Brianetta>Can't take a bottle of pop
06:23<Brianetta>Can't take my PC tools
06:23<Celestar>results: Munich-Berlin should take around 3 hours. Which results in an average speed of less than 200km/h. This should be doable.
06:24<Brianetta>Well, I can if I check in luggage, but that adds another hour
06:24<Celestar>but sorry, 5.5 hours is ridiculous.
06:24<Celestar>for a 580km route
06:25<Brianetta>It's the same as the UK
06:25<Celestar>bring that to 3, or 3.5 hours, and they have my business.
06:26<Celestar>but the relation price<->trip time isn't right.
06:26<Celestar>not for 220 EUR
06:26<@Rubidium>yeah, 220 euros is too much
06:27<Celestar>Rubidium: not for 3 hours.
06:27<Celestar>for almost 6, yes
06:27<Celestar>ok there ARE cheaper railway tickets
06:27<Celestar>but then you're bound to a special train
06:28<Celestar>and can't use whichever you want
06:28<Celestar>DB has managed to abolish everything that gave them an advantage over airlines: Large tables, compartments, a simple fare system and utmost flexibility for the customers.
06:29<@Rubidium>Celestar: maybe I'm spoiled by the Japanese system
06:29<Celestar>Today, you sit cramped with 200 other people in a thin aluminum tube, have a stupid table in front of you which is unsuitable for work, have a fare system that no one understands are are mostly bound to a single train with your ticket.
06:29<Celestar>They have REALLY managed what they always advertised: "Flying at level 0".. yeah
06:30<Celestar>thing is: When the train "flies" at 100km/h, no one is interested
06:30<Celestar>well what do you expect. the CEO was a for executive of Airbus ;)
06:31<Celestar>former*
06:31<TrueBrain>the most boring class ever ... a chinese trying to talk english, which of course is totally un-understandable ..
06:32<Celestar>heheh
06:33<TrueBrain>and I want an iphone, but my contract isn't expired yet .. what does a person have to do to make that happen :(
06:34<@Rubidium>Celestar: in Japan you can take all JR trains except the fastest Shinkansens in a single week for a mere 180 euro (only for foreigners though); difference between fastest and the rest is 1 hour on a 6 hour 1200 km trip. A single for the fastest costs 142.50 euro and for the slower one 138.70 euro
06:35<@Rubidium>and JR's route planner says that by plane it takes you 4 hours (with 30 minutes checkin and checkout) for 240 euros
06:36<@Rubidium>(though as foreigner you could do that trip by plane for less than 100 euros)
06:37<@Rubidium>Celestar, therefor: 220 euros is expensive for a ICE at regional speeds
06:39<@Rubidium>cheapest for that trip is 86.80 euro which takes you 27.5 hours (of which 6 hours is waiting because regular trains don't run at night)
06:41<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: a) stop paying, b) send them a letter that you died and would like to cancel the agreement
06:42-!-Ammler is now known as DevServer
06:42<@Rubidium>and Chinese people trying to talk English can be understood, though you need to hear enough of their "English" to properly understand they dialect
06:42-!-DevServer is now known as Ammler
06:42<TrueBrain>Rubidium: euh .. I am not ready yet to consider myself past way
06:43<@Rubidium>and why do you want an iPhone?
06:43<@Rubidium>because you like apple so much?
06:43<TrueBrain>because it is much much better than this crappy Windows Mobile 5 I currently own
06:44<Celestar>Rubidium: I liked using SKS in Japan
06:44<Celestar>Rubidium: especially the 3-minute intervals Tokyo - Shin-Osaka
06:45<Celestar>Rubidium: Yeah I heard about JR Rail Pass.
06:45<Celestar>Rubidium: but we had tickets for the のぞみ which takes 2h30
06:45<@Rubidium>the only bad thing about Japanese railways is that there isn't a single "prepaid" card that works for all of them
06:45<@Rubidium>the Hikari?
06:45<Celestar>Nozomi
06:46<Celestar>I thought the Rail Pass works on the Hikaris?
06:46<@Rubidium>it does
06:47<@Rubidium>but nozomis are faster than hikaris (or whatever other name they can imagine)
06:47<Celestar>yes
06:47<Celestar>The new Nozomis (with tilting) are down to 2h25 for Toyko-Shin Osaka
06:48<@Rubidium>yeah, those are nice
06:48<@Rubidium>too bad the track ShinOsaka-Hakata (westbound from Osaka) isn't perfectly straight, so you have some "turbulence" on the way
06:49<Celestar>yeah
06:49<Celestar>ever went Frankfurt-Köln?
06:49<@Rubidium>nope
06:49<Celestar>it's Germany's only serious high-speed rail.
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06:49<Celestar>but it's classified as "Steep Track"
06:50<Celestar>no other European Train than the ICE3 can go there because of the slope
06:50<Celestar>it feels like a roller-coaster (=
06:50<Celestar>plus it has rather low curve radii for 300km/h
06:50-!-Ammler is now known as DevServer
06:51<Celestar>3300m
06:51<Celestar>normally 300km/h rails have 4000m
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06:51<@Rubidium>only Berlin-Hengelo (and some smaller stuff near Berlin)
06:52<@Rubidium>Celestar: ShinKobe-Hiroshima is also a rollercoaster with flashing lights (the amount of tunnels is really enormous)
06:53<roboboy>yey my openttd cargodest compile worked
06:53<roboboy>it has a revision of rev000 though
06:53<Celestar>Rubidium: Ebensfeld-Erfurt (if EVER built) will have >50% tunnels
06:54<roboboy>is that what the revision for a self compiled cargodest should be?
06:54<Celestar>h05a5279f
06:55<roboboy>h05a5279f is the one I compiled
06:56<@Rubidium>roboboy: did you use mercurial to make your local repository or did you download some source zip?
06:57<roboboy>source zip of binaries.openttd.org/custom/cargodest
06:57<roboboy>off
06:57<@Rubidium>there goes any hope of OpenTTD properly detecting the revision as that information isn't stored anywhere in that zip
06:57<roboboy>ok
06:58<roboboy>does it matter that it doesnt have a revision number?
06:58<@Rubidium>if you just want to play with it locally not really
06:58<roboboy>ok
06:58<Ammler>roboboy: you might join us at our MP test game :-)
06:59<roboboy>I can join later tomorrow night ausie time
06:59<Ammler>./configure --revision=h05a5279f
06:59<roboboy>im using MSVC. Will ./configure work?
07:00<Ammler>no idea...
07:00<roboboy>ill try
07:00<Ammler>but I am sure, it has something similar
07:00<roboboy>what version is the game runing
07:00<Ammler>the one you downloaded
07:00<roboboy>ok good
07:01<roboboy>not the new one
07:01<Ammler>there is a newer?
07:02<Ammler>it is the newest from binaries.openttd.org
07:02<roboboy>http://binaries.openttd.org/custom/cargodest/h05a5279f/
07:02<roboboy>the september one
07:02<roboboy>ah as I compiled the last august one
07:03<Ammler>just join #openttdcoop.dev and check topic :-)
07:04*roboboy will write a batch script to move all the openttd files once compiled to a single folder
07:07<Ammler>roboboy: use make
07:07<Ammler>make bundle
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07:09<roboboy>ok
07:10<roboboy>gnight
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07:29<Celestar>bah
07:29<Celestar>I need to find a way to dump all the caches into a file
07:30<@peter1138>To compare?
07:30<Celestar>peter1138: to compare between server and client
07:31<@peter1138>Still got desync problems? :(
07:31<Celestar>peter1138: very rare ones, but they do exist
07:31*peter1138 ponders making invalid pseudo sprite lengths fatal too...
07:31<Celestar>peter1138: we basically have them since the destination cache.
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07:34<Celestar>hm
07:34<Celestar>but I'm desyncing after a reset of the routing system as well
07:35<Celestar>we didn't have those problems in the previous test without newgrfs
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09:12<@Belugas>hello in there
09:12<murray>hello out there
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09:15<dih>hello all over
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09:28<cMircea>hello
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09:41<Celestar>peter1138: I'll need help debugging the desyncs at some point ...
09:41<Celestar>!playercount
09:41-!-Celestar was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
09:41<davis->lol
09:41-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@129.187.69.65] has joined #openttd
09:41<davis->fail?
09:42<Celestar>DorpsGek: idiot
09:42<Celestar>:P
09:42<@peter1138>Hah
09:43<+glx>it's not DorpsGek's fault
09:44<@peter1138>Celestar, no method of reproducing them?
09:44<Celestar>peter1138: currently, I desync within about 2 seconds of joining
09:44<@peter1138>That doesn't mean much.
09:45<Celestar>peter1138: I should maybe dump the hopcache and destcache into a file
09:45<Celestar>peter1138: other suggestions?
09:48<davis->!p
09:48<davis->:s
09:49<@peter1138>Finding the real cause instead of seeing what data is wrong? ;)
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09:55<Brianetta>As far as I understand it, two things can lead to a desync, assuming the game remains deterministic. First, information is cached and those caches are not flushed or transmitted in the join save. Second, commands are not being completely transmitted to all clients.
09:56<Brianetta>Both lead form the assumption that certain information can reliably be reconstructed by all clients.
09:56<Mortal>I've noticed when I fast-forward with tab, the game goes as fast as it can ... which mostly if not totally depends on the size of the screen it needs to render - if the game is maximised on 1680x1024 and focused it's around 2x time, but if it's minimised a year takes 14 real seconds...
09:56<hylje>Mortal: well obviously it doesn't draw into a minimized window
09:56<Brianetta>Mortal: Yeah - fast forward just skips all the delays
09:57<Brianetta>It runs as fast as it can on your hardware
09:57<hylje>and with given settings
09:57<Brianetta>I thought that was covered by "it" (:
09:57<Mortal>well, has anyone considered maybe ... still capping the time? maybe skipping some frames to keep the speed at a decent, steady time?
09:57<Brianetta>Mortal: I believe somebody once considered the idea, then said to hell with it.
09:58<Mortal>lol
09:58<Mortal>oh well... it's not a big deal since I rarely FF, but it is a bit annoying that when I need to watch the game while FF'ing, I only get around 2x speedup
09:59<Brianetta>Turn don animation, reduce your window size
09:59<Mortal>mehhhhh
09:59<Brianetta>Zoom in
09:59<Mortal>mehhhhhh
09:59<Mortal>;)
09:59<Brianetta>Most people only fast forward to make some cash
09:59<Mortal>yeah, I guess
09:59<Brianetta>or to see if they get a jam
09:59<Mortal>huh?
09:59-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
10:00<Mortal>as in a train crash?
10:00<Brianetta>I only fast forward by holding tab; never by clicking the button. I don't want it rushing into the 21st century without me.
10:00<Brianetta>A jam
10:06*TrueBrain waves to #openttd
10:06*TrueBrain waves to yorick
10:06*yorick waves back
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10:19<AlexFili>hello
10:19<TrueBrain>hi :)
10:20<TrueBrain>found the problem of your disconnects?
10:20<AlexFili>i think so
10:20<AlexFili>can you come to my server and see if my firewall port works now? http://www.openttd.org/server_detail.php?id=881
10:20<Celestar>peter1138: well, we have one good thing about the desyncs :P
10:20<TrueBrain>if the masterserver can find you, there is a VERY high chance it all works ;)
10:20<AlexFili>well yeah, its on the main list
10:20<AlexFili>just wanted to make sure that people could join ok :)
10:20<Celestar>peter1138: "rn rr" on the server ALWAYS fixes them (=
10:21<TrueBrain>well, can't help you with that :)
10:21<AlexFili>thanks again for the tips
10:21<AlexFili>I managed to successfully configure my wifi router last night
10:21<AlexFili>turns out I forgot to even change the default password
10:21<AlexFili>so I guess I forgot to do port forwarding, the problem seems to be fine now
10:21<TrueBrain>hehe
10:21<Celestar>Rubidium: You know a bit about the network: I'd like to write some function that compares the client and server caches in-game, by sending the cache over the network. How difficult would that be?
10:21<TrueBrain>like 90% of the wifi router users ..
10:22<AlexFili>as far as I know theres no real problems with openttd online in general
10:22<AlexFili>the biggest problems I can see are pausing when a player joins, and empty companies
10:22<TrueBrain>lol @ Celestar :)
10:22<Celestar>TrueBrain: why lol?
10:22<Celestar>TrueBrain: not the hardware caches :P
10:22<TrueBrain>Celestar: how big is that cache? :)
10:23<AlexFili>the openTTD port for DS works nicely
10:23<Celestar>TrueBrain: not big enough to make a LAN or DSL choke
10:23<Celestar>TrueBrain: < 1 MB
10:23<TrueBrain>Celestar: LOL! There are clients which choke over the map already ..
10:23<TrueBrain>so if 1 MB really is the size ... omg :p
10:23<Celestar>TrueBrain: I'm talking about the DEBUGGING function (=
10:24<Celestar>TrueBrain: like. I find a problem. I type some command in the console, server pauses and sends the cache data out.
10:24<@peter1138>Celestar, pause the server, save the information on the server and each client, put them together, then compare.
10:24<AlexFili>if I run with a newGRF, that person will have to have it before they can join, is that right?
10:24<TrueBrain>then you can also dump the content once every N minutes (or at desync)
10:24<TrueBrain>(to stdout)
10:24<@peter1138>I don't think it's worth messing with network protocols to do this.
10:24<Celestar>peter1138: and dump then to a binary/text file?
10:24<@peter1138>text is easier to diff.
10:24<Celestar>peter1138: heh. you forget one thing (=
10:24<TrueBrain>Celestar: that is 10000 times easier than create a function for it
10:25<Celestar>peter1138: when the client desyncs, I lose the cache state because the game ends :)
10:25<@Rubidium>Celestar: what about cloning the cache in memory, rebuilding it, comparing it?
10:25<Celestar>Rubidium: that sounds like a reasonable idea ;)
10:25<TrueBrain>Celestar: you can dump the cache AT desync
10:25<TrueBrain>(on both sides)
10:25<AlexFili>do many people have the TTO alternative graphics patch to replace toyland?
10:26<AlexFili>just wondering if a Mars Server is worthwile
10:26<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: that's not very useful as the cache got most likely corrupted very badly already
10:27<@Rubidium>and by the time the server receives the "oh I desynced" message it is already a tick furter in the game, so the caches can't be compared anyways
10:27<TrueBrain>Rubidium: he wanted to compare things! Not me :)
10:27<TrueBrain>Rubidium: in worst case even 100 ticks further in the game ;)
10:28<AlexFili>and autosaves wont work either?
10:28<@peter1138>Best bet is to rebuild the cache on the server and compare it.
10:28<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: 100 ticks is worst case?
10:28<TrueBrain>Rubidium: last time I touched the code, desync was checked every 100 ticks
10:28<@Rubidium>that might be, but it doesn't mean the root cause of the desync was in those 100 ticks
10:29<TrueBrain>well, depends on how you describe a 'desync'
10:30<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: 20 game years between the cause of the desync and the actual desync is not unheard of
10:30<AlexFili>a few seconds is pretty negligable
10:30<TrueBrain>but you said 1 tick, just wanted to point out that many more time could have passed
10:30<AlexFili>most of the time players build far away from each other anyway
10:30<murray>wow, 20 years? really?
10:30<AlexFili>thats some big lag there lol
10:31<AlexFili>one person going "WTF? monorails in 1930?!"
10:31<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: I said that WHEN the client detects a desync and tells the server that, that the server is already 1 tick ahead of the client. Therefor the check caches at desync is impossible except when the server dumps them every frame
10:31<TrueBrain>murray: direct cause always is a random which is done on one end and not on the other .. indirect .. can even be the fact that the savegame doesn't contain ALL data :p So yeah, it is posisble
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10:32<AlexFili>So, which servers are the most popular? and what year do people start in?
10:32<TrueBrain>Rubidium: true; solvable by cloning the cache on the server every time it checks desync ;)
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10:34<yorick>17:20:30 < TrueBrain> if the masterserver can find you, there is a VERY high chance it all works ;) <-- it does not check if tcp is forwarded
10:34<@Rubidium>anyhow: clone + rebuild + compare is much more efficient
10:34<TrueBrain>yorick: as I said: high chance, not 100% guarantee :)
10:34<yorick>checking only UDP is about a 50% chance :-P
10:34<TrueBrain>(the piece between 100% and the high chance is the human factor of stupidity :)
10:35<yorick>for the stupidity
10:35<AlexFili>come here if you want some random toyland fun; http://www.openttd.org/server_detail.php?id=881
10:35<TrueBrain>yorick: it also means the NAT is working, the connection is up, ...
10:35<TrueBrain>so more than 50% ;)
10:35<yorick>some routers don't even allow something twice forwarded, not checking the protocol
10:35<TrueBrain>AlexFili: this is _not_ an advertise-for-your-server channel
10:36*yorick detects spam
10:36<AlexFili>:S
10:37<AlexFili>not a fan of toyland then? :)
10:38<yorick>not a fan of spam either
10:38<AlexFili>spam is hardly the word :p
10:38<TrueBrain>not a fan of advertising for random servers .. we have a nice server-list for that (Both ingame as on a website)
10:38<yorick>@kick ...
10:38<@DorpsGek>yorick: Error: ... is not in #openttd.
10:39<@peter1138>@kick yorick
10:39<yorick>does @kick $randomNick work?
10:39<@peter1138>See, it ignores me.
10:39<AlexFili>@kick yorick
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10:39<AlexFili>:o
10:39<AlexFili>well it works for me
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10:40<TrueBrain>peter1138: register yourself to DorpsGek, and we can fix it for real :)
10:41<@peter1138>With, not to.
10:41<AlexFili>look whos talking about advertising now lol
10:41<TrueBrain>really? Hmm .. will try to keep thatone in mind :)
10:42<TrueBrain>register with ... I always thought it was register to :)
10:42<AlexFili>i think it depends on the context
10:42*yorick wonders where he got that bug... "registreren bij" but "sign up to"
10:42<AlexFili>sign up to, register with
10:42<AlexFili>that sounds correct
10:43<yorick>it *is* correct :-p
10:43<@peter1138>register to vote
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10:44<TrueBrain>lol @ peter1138, now I am even more confused :p
10:44<AlexFili>'to vote' is a verb
10:44<AlexFili>not a company
10:44<@peter1138>TrueBrain :)
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10:47<AlexFili>hmmm, looks like toyland servers arent that popular
10:47<AlexFili>then again, its not peak time yet for UK/USA I guess
10:49<AlexFili>so, how many people here have TTO, TTDX and TT(Playstation 1)?
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10:58<Celestar>peter1138: are we SURE that autoreplace is netstable?
10:58<AlexFili>it should be, why not?
10:58<AlexFili>autoreplace is down to the users PC telling the trains to go in for service, nothing more, surely?
10:58<TrueBrain>Celestar: autoreplace? Bjarni code? What do you think ;)
10:59<AlexFili>you can try the forums and see if anyone has complained in a similar way?
10:59<yorick>Autoreplace is not bjarnicode anymore
10:59<yorick>it is froschrewritten bjarnicode
10:59<TrueBrain>yorick: still ;)
11:00<Celestar>peter1138: hm ....
11:01<AlexFili>autoreplace shouldnt affect the server in a very substantial way at all
11:01<@Belugas>Frosch still has a long way to go until it is un-bjarnized
11:02<@Belugas>AlexFili, i see that you are an expert on that piece of code. Maybe you could help frosch on the rewrite?
11:02<TrueBrain>long, as in, end of road not in isght? :p
11:02<AlexFili>sorry but im going on holiday tomorrow :)
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11:03<@Belugas>as good an excuse as any ;)
11:03<TrueBrain>I am sure that is the only reason
11:03<AlexFili>im serious lol
11:04<@Belugas>can frosch count on you when you'llbe back?
11:05<@Rubidium>otherwise we'll make a abacus of you for frosch
11:05<AlexFili>my answer to that is [no]
11:05<yorick>what's your excuse for that?
11:06<AlexFili>I have never worked on openTTD code before :p
11:06<AlexFili>but I have worked with C++ if that helps
11:06<TrueBrain>and yet, you seem to know it all ..
11:06<AlexFili>im just saying autoreplace is mainly on the client side, not the server
11:06<AlexFili>am i right?
11:06<@Belugas>well... i think you should look at the code before stating that
11:07<TrueBrain>well, you clearly know, so we should ask you :)
11:07<@Belugas>otherwise, you're assuming
11:07<TrueBrain>assumptions in general are really bad ;)
11:07<Ammler>that is my business :P
11:07<AlexFili>all functions that can be performed in single player mode are not related to the network server code, thats my opinion
11:08<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I vote +q
11:08*Belugas seconds
11:08<TrueBrain>somehow, that sounds very arrogant .. dunno ..
11:09<@Belugas>AlexFili, you REALLY do not know what you are talking about, sorry to be a bummer
11:09<TrueBrain>but okay, it is very useful we have an other person who understands and known OpenTTD that well
11:09-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7FB91.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
11:10<AlexFili>I can honestly say that I have never looked at OpenTTD code before in my entire life
11:10<@Belugas>even yorick does not make such wild assertions...
11:10<AlexFili>however I have some experience with programming and so I made some assumptions based on my experience
11:10<TrueBrain>and yet here you are claiming to know things about OpenTTD
11:10<Celestar>I'm still wondering how to compare the client and server caches
11:10<yorick>I worte me first patch without any C++ knowledge too
11:10<@peter1138>15:58 Celestar> peter1138: are we SURE that autoreplace is netstable?
11:10<yorick>yes, it asserted
11:11<@Belugas>AlexFili, that's the whole point of the discussion. Do not assume and claim stuff. You only are loosing your credibility
11:11<@peter1138>^ No idea, I've not looked at the code since the previous few rewrites.
11:11<TrueBrain>Belugas: he lost that yesterday ;)
11:11<Celestar>peter1138: the thing is desyncs happen mostly when we're autoreplacing. Apparently there is something rotten in the autoreplace<->cargodest interface
11:11<TrueBrain>Celestar: and if you disable autoreplace? :)
11:11<@Rubidium>Celestar, as I said: clone cache + rebuild cache + compare cloned and rebuilt cache == check cache between client and server
11:12<Celestar>Rubidium: yeah. I'm just wondering how to implement the "compare" part. I'll have the leave out the dirty stuff
11:12<Ammler>a stop all replace would help, else it is quite difficult to disable them and to be sure it is...
11:13<Celestar>Rubidium: since lists and maps have a = operator, the cloning is easy (=
11:13<AlexFili>there are other people who have complained about desyncs because of autoreplace
11:13<AlexFili>"There's the autoreplace desync, which is apparently known and fixed in trunk. My server actually exited after one of those yesterday. I do not know of any autoreplace desync in 0.6.2."
11:13<AlexFili>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=39142&hilit=replace
11:16<AlexFili>"There's the autoreplace desync, which is apparently known and fixed in trunk. My server actually exited after one of those yesterday. Then there's the mysterious waypoint desync, which never happens if nobody ever renames their waypoints. Finally, there's the oh-so-annoying late game desync, where late on in the game all clients start to desync more and more frequently, and reloading the server doesn't even help."
11:17<Ammler>AlexFili: we play almost every game for about 200-500 years with around 30-50 NewGRFs
11:18<AlexFili>...
11:18<AlexFili>and you wonder why you desync?!
11:18<Ammler>no, we don't
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11:19<AlexFili>"It's likely that many, if not all of these, are caused by newgrf bugs. "
11:19<Celestar>!rcon pause
11:19<Celestar>need a pause for 5 minutes
11:19<Ammler>:-)
11:19<Celestar>er
11:19<DaleStan>Wrong channel?
11:22<DaleStan>AlexFili: I don't do /msg.
11:22<@Belugas>AlexFili, you are AGAIN making assumptions. Plus, you have pasted stuff that is already known.
11:24<AlexFili>@Belugas: thanks for that wonderful comment
11:24<AlexFili>I hope we can become friends :D
11:24<@Rubidium>I think you just became friend with his IRC client's ignore filter
11:25<AlexFili>@Rubidium: I care not.
11:25<@Rubidium>anyhow... if the late-game desync is so enormously reproducable, why haven't I seen any reproducable case of it?
11:26<AlexFili>in programming a run-time error is caused by a mistake in the programming or an unexpected event
11:27<AlexFili>if its after a very long time, it could just be that a very small discrepancy built up slowly and steadily until at one point the server couldn't cope and desynced
11:27<Celestar>peter1138: I have found the reason for the desyncs
11:27<AlexFili>usually small discrepancies can't be found in the debug, because they are so minute that you would not recognize them
11:27<Celestar>Forked: ping
11:27<Forked>pong
11:28<Forked>four seconds :(
11:28<Celestar>Forked: did you find a sitation where routes got lost?
11:28<Forked>this game or my own game?
11:28<Forked>I did in my own, some revs ago
11:28<@Rubidium>yay... for AlexFili's FUD
11:28<Celestar>yours
11:28<Forked>yes
11:29<Celestar>have you been able to reproduce that?
11:29<Forked>not after you said you fixed it I think.. I can retry though
11:31<AlexFili>"<Belugas> desynhc are NOT runtime errors"
11:32<Forked>Celestar: no "luck" with that doing it like I did last time
11:32<Celestar>Forked: no problem
11:33<Celestar>well desyncs are logic errors
11:34-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7FB91.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:34<Brianetta>Celestar, Rubidium: How expensive is it to checksum the caches (not even crypto; any checksum algo will do) and compare that at the same time as the random seed? Would give earlier desyncs.
11:35<@Belugas>nice...
11:35<@Belugas>very nice AlexFili
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11:35<Celestar>Brianetta: difficult, because the caches are rebuilt on request
11:35<Brianetta>Is that not predictable?
11:35-!-AlexFili [~AlexFili@host86-158-39-68.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
11:35<Celestar>Brianetta: it is kind of
11:35<Celestar>Brianetta: but I have found the reason ^^
11:35<yorick>C:/BuildOTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/cleantrunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: In function `CommandCost CmdBuildAircraft(TileIndex, uint32, uint32, uint32)':
11:35<yorick>C:/BuildOTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/cleantrunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp:427: warning: 'w' might be used uninitialized in this function
11:35<yorick>with unpatched trunk
11:36<Brianetta>It could be used to aid debugging of other desyncs
11:36<@Rubidium>yorick: broken compiler
11:36<Brianetta>newgrf runtime data, for example
11:36<yorick>Rubidium: nope
11:36<Celestar>yorick: lol copiler is wrong
11:36<yorick>g++.exe (GCC) 3.4.5 (mingw-vista special r3)
11:37<@Rubidium>yorick: then show a path that causes it to be used uninitialized
11:37<yorick>still it should be silenced
11:37<AlexFili>compiler debug messages can sometimes be very vague
11:37<Brianetta>yorick: Feel free to silence it.
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>please enlighten us, all-knowing AlexFili.
11:38<AlexFili>ah here we go, the voice of reason
11:38<Celestar>I need to find why routes are dropped :S
11:38<@Rubidium>Brianetta: there are way to many caches to simply check using a checksum
11:38<Brianetta>Rubidium: Fair enough. It's expensive.
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>Makefile:146: Makefile.bundle: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden <- ?
11:39<+glx>yorick: broken compiler
11:39<yorick>glx: you mean GCC 3.4.5 mingw-vista is broken?
11:39-!-mikl [~mikl@cpe.ge-0-2-0-812.0x50c774be.boanqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: mikl]
11:39<@Rubidium>I had some code to test some of the vehicle newgrf caches once and it slowed down the game a lot
11:39<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: sh config.cache
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>i did ./configure now...
11:40<+glx>yorick: 3.4.5 is "old" and gives false warning
11:40-!-Singaporekid [~notme@cm40.epsilon123.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:40<yorick>3.4.5 was released 28 august 2008
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>why is there no gcc 4.x for windows yet?
11:40<+glx>if you check the code you will easily notice it
11:40<+glx>it's in testing
11:41<@Rubidium>yorick: fact 1) the compiler complains about uninitialised use w, fact 2) there is no uninitialised use of said variable, conclusion by logic: the compiler complaint is unfounded
11:42<yorick>Eddi: there is
11:42<yorick>but does openttd support gcc 4.x?
11:42<Celestar>yorick: yes
11:42<Celestar>I'm using 4.3
11:42<@Rubidium>does the gcc 4.x port for mingw work?
11:43*yorick shall update to 4.x alpha
11:43<@Rubidium>it didn't when I tried two weeks ago
11:43<+glx>I used it in my winXP VM
11:45<yorick>:o it is 517MB
11:45*yorick will delete gcj
11:46<yorick>and gc-objc
11:46-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@62.113.133.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:47<AlexFili>ok, time to test to see if my client wont disconnect this time
11:52-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@62.113.133.253] has joined #openttd
11:52<+glx><@Rubidium> it didn't when I tried two weeks ago <-- using individual packages?
11:53<yorick>it seems to compile
11:55-!-CIA-1 [~CIA@208.69.182.149] has joined #openttd
11:56-!-Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
11:57-!-RehabAbar [~AlexFili@host86-136-149-32.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
11:57<RehabAbar>damn, i got disconnected again, looks like the problem wasnt fixed after all
11:58*Belugas relaxes with good old Peter Gabriel - Slowburn
11:59*RehabAbar is listening to his Michael Jackson compilation CD
11:59-!-RehabAbar is now known as AlexFili-2
12:00<AlexFili-2>can anyone explain why playing openttd would make a router drop out all connections?
12:00<yorick>cheap router
12:00<fjb>Broken router.
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>because it wants to spare us your annoyance
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>but it fails
12:00<AlexFili-2>BT Homehub?
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's why the router is broken
12:01<AlexFili-2>if its so badly broken, why does it only happen when I play openTTD?
12:01<yorick>is BT bluetooth?
12:01<yorick>because OpenTTD sends more packets
12:01-!-AlexFili [~AlexFili@host86-158-39-68.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:02<yorick>is it when you query the serverlist?
12:02<yorick>or when you join a game
12:02<AlexFili-2>no, about 10 minutes after i joined a game
12:02<AlexFili-2>but last night i was sure I played for at least 15 without any problems
12:02<AlexFili-2>and I can host my server for eternity without it crashing
12:02<@peter1138>Moribund! The! Burgermeister!
12:02<fjb>Some things wont work with broken routers. If you are lucky you are not using one of the applications it can not handle. But if you use one of them you are out of luck.
12:02<@peter1138>BT Homehubs are known to be shit.
12:02<AlexFili-2>yeah, BT arent exactly the most reliable of operators
12:03<AlexFili-2>but still, this never happened before to me, with any application
12:03<AlexFili-2>does the position of the router matter at all?
12:03<fjb>Just only use applications the router can handle.
12:03<yorick>if wired, no
12:03<fjb>If not wired yes.
12:03<AlexFili-2>well its a wireless router right next to my pc
12:03<fjb>That is the wrong place.
12:03<@Belugas>tried using a cable?
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>proxy the openttd protocol through one of the other applications ;)
12:04<AlexFili-2>where should it be?
12:04<@peter1138>In the bin.
12:04<AlexFili-2>:)
12:04<yorick>With a cable
12:04*Belugas puts on peter1138's sugestion :)
12:04<AlexFili-2>fjb? any ideas?
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>under the train.
12:05<AlexFili-2>'the train'? could you be any more vague? lol
12:05<fjb>Use a wire.
12:05-!-Jerimiah40 [~jerimiah4@h66-244-213-147.pmcnet.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>any train would do, i suppose
12:05<fjb>If that doesn't halp buy a better router.
12:05<AlexFili-2>... but thats the whole points, its WIRELESS
12:05<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, one with 3rd rail would be good.
12:05<AlexFili-2>why 3?
12:05-!-Jerimiah40 [~jerimiah4@h66-244-213-147.pmcnet.ca] has joined #openttd
12:06<@peter1138>Because three's better than two.
12:06<yorick>AlexFili: only if you have something you want portable, you should use wireles
12:06<TrueBrain>@voice Eddi|zuHause
12:06-!-mode/#openttd [+v Eddi|zuHause] by DorpsGek
12:06<AlexFili-2>well i have a ds and psp that use my wireless connection
12:06<yorick>else, I recommend you PLUG IN THE CABLE and try again
12:06<TrueBrain>for the comment: [18:00] <Eddi|zuHause> because it wants to spare us your annoyance
12:06<TrueBrain>brilliant!
12:06<+Eddi|zuHause>:)
12:06<AlexFili-2>my other wireless router didnt have any disconnection problems at all
12:06<@peter1138>So ditch the homehub and use the other wireless router.
12:07<yorick>then your wireless router is wirelessly broken
12:07<yorick>use the other wireless router.
12:07<AlexFili-2>nah, that thing sucked
12:07<AlexFili-2>overheated way too much
12:07<@peter1138>So does the Homehub.
12:07<fjb>Then stop playing OpenTTD.
12:07<yorick>oh
12:07<yorick>the gcc 4.x failed to compile
12:08<AlexFili-2>yorick if the program could not be compiled, there wouldnt be an exe along with it
12:08<yorick>it failed to compile OpenTTD
12:08<+glx>what is the error?
12:08<AlexFili-2>^ please note that the above statement is a bold assumption that is not factual in any way shape or form
12:09<AlexFili-2><@peter1138> So does the Homehub. < not mine, mine is as cool as a cucumber
12:09<fjb>Yeah cool and broken.
12:09<AlexFili-2>if it was broken it would be physically impossible for me to talk to you
12:09<yorick>glx: compile log: http://paste.openttd.org/78073
12:09<AlexFili-2>I'm not paying £40 just because openttd doesnt work with my router
12:09<AlexFili-2>its a good game, but its not THAT good
12:10<AlexFili-2>besides, it might be full of people like you lol
12:10<yorick>then leave :)
12:10<@peter1138>Your solutions are 1) get BT to replace the faulty router 2) go away
12:10<yorick>I don't think anyone could possibly miss you
12:10<+Eddi|zuHause>TT cost 60€ back when my brother bought it
12:10<yorick>we only know you one day
12:10<AlexFili-2>WRONG
12:10<AlexFili-2>two days :D
12:11<+Eddi|zuHause>i have the bad feeling that i know you for two years already
12:11<fjb>We only remember you one day.
12:11<AlexFili-2>well I was here before, a while ago
12:11<AlexFili-2><fjb> We only remember you one day. < are you a goldfish? :P
12:11<fjb>No, goldfish also remember important things only one day.
12:11<@peter1138>No, we try to forget the annoyances in life.
12:12<+Eddi|zuHause>no, blocking out traumatic memories is a very natural behaviour
12:12<AlexFili-2>I must say, I have never met such lyrically talented individuals
12:12<AlexFili-2>I commend you for your excellent vocal and textual capacity
12:12<@peter1138>Lyrics would imply singing.
12:13<AlexFili-2>Words are just lyrics without a beat :)
12:13*Belugas brings in his guitar and starts a fire camp
12:13<+Eddi|zuHause>poems went under the term "lyrics" back when i was at school... maybe that is handled differently in english
12:14<@peter1138>Poems are just songs without a tune.
12:15<yorick>glx: any idea?
12:16-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@129.187.69.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:16-!-AlexFili [~AlexFili@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
12:16<AlexFili>thats weird, now I got disconnected after hosting a server... that didnt happen before
12:16<+glx>yorick: weird errors
12:16<AlexFili>I can understand why openTTD would disconnect me, but why would my router suddenly go down
12:16<yorick>because your router is broken
12:17<fjb>Because it is broken.
12:17<AlexFili>but every single other application works fine
12:17<+glx>an application can't kill the router
12:17<+Eddi|zuHause>because... wait... déjà vus happen when they change the matrix
12:17<AlexFili>if a banana in the fridge is rotten, it doesnt mean the fridge is broken
12:18<AlexFili><+glx> an application can't kill the router < I beg to differ
12:18-!-Yexo_ [~Yexo@dhcp-077-248-065-055.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
12:18-!-Yexo is now known as Guest5262
12:18-!-Yexo_ is now known as Yexo
12:18-!-Guest5262 [~Yexo@dhcp-077-248-065-055.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:20<fjb>Why are you asking us when you know everything better? You should be able to fix your problems by yourself.
12:20<AlexFili><fjb> Because it is broken. < obviously this conclusion came after countless hours of reasoning
12:21-!-Volley [~worf@84-119-53-183.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:21<AlexFili>I only wish your reasoning skills and knowledge were as good as the witty comments you love to make
12:21-!-AlexFili-2 [~AlexFili@host86-136-149-32.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:21<fjb>No countless hours reasoning about your router here.
12:21<+Eddi|zuHause>AlexFili: i honestly don't have a clue what you actually want here... you are complaining now for two days that your router does not work, yet you dismiss any attempt to help you find out the reason...
12:21<DaleStan>If the router dies while routing traffic, it is broken. Routers are supposed to route, not die. Buy a more expensive one.
12:21-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcd80.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
12:21<DaleStan>Or stop filesharing.
12:22<AlexFili>but this does not happen with any other single application I have
12:22<AlexFili>why would it just be with one application?
12:22<+glx>bad luck?
12:22<+Eddi|zuHause>it's your router... you tell us...
12:24<AlexFili>can anyone think of a reason why openttd would be intensive to a router?
12:24<+glx>yorick: I don't get the warnings but I have the linking error
12:28<AlexFili>thanks for the help
12:28<@Belugas>AlexFili, no, otherwise we would have told you
12:28<@Belugas>in fact,it works fine for the immense majority of users
12:28<+glx>and it's not intensive at all
12:28<fjb>OpenTTD is not intensive to a router. Your router is simply not able to handle OpenTTD. So either don't use that router or don't use OpenTTD.
12:28<@Belugas>indeed not
12:28<AlexFili>don't use OpenTTD online? I can still play single player fine
12:28<fjb>Yes, play it offline. You alone with the ai.
12:28<AlexFili>:D yay
12:28<AlexFili>I can play toyland all I like!
12:28<fjb>That fits you.
12:28<AlexFili>:D
12:30-!-Jerimiah40 [~jerimiah4@h66-244-213-147.pmcnet.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:30<AlexFili>bye all
12:30-!-AlexFili [~AlexFili@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit []
12:31-!-Jerimiah40 [~jerimiah4@h66-244-213-147.pmcnet.ca] has joined #openttd
12:32<fjb>I just got a pm: [18:30:27] <AlexFili> shame there isnt a 'complete asshole' landscape type
12:35<+glx>yorick: compiled
12:35<yorick>huh?
12:36<yorick>glx: how do you mean?
12:36<+glx>the problem is because it uses the wrong libstdc++.a
12:37-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@78-21-228-27.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
12:37<+glx>4.3.0 libs are in lib/gcc/mingw32/version while 3.4.x libs were in lib
12:38<+glx>(and the new paths are more logical if you want multiple gcc versions on the system)
12:38<yorick>mhm
12:38<yorick>but what files to remove?
12:39<@orudge>hey, everyone, buy some OpenTTD swag!
12:39<@orudge>http://www.cafepress.com/openttd
12:39<+glx>lib/libstdc++* and lib/libsupc++*
12:41<yorick>the warnings should also be fixable
12:41<+glx>I have no warnings
12:43<+glx>maybe buildottd doesn't use the latest mingw-runtime and win32api
12:44<yorick>not that I'm still using the standard bottd
12:45<yorick>it was made vista-compatible, erased, copied, un-vista-compatiblized, copied again, vista-compatiblized, upgraded and fixed
12:45<yorick>and it still works :)
12:45<+glx>but you changed gcc and g++ only
12:45<davis->whats buildottd?
12:45<yorick>this time, yes
12:46<yorick>davis-: the broken tool noobs are supposed to compile openttd with
12:46<davis->ah
12:46<davis->ic
12:46<@Belugas>translated to "I see" ;)
12:46<davis->thank you
12:46<Phantasm>Belugas: How is the fixing going on?
12:47<Forked>noob is such a counter-strike/WoW word :\
12:47<|Jeroen|>nah noob is way older
12:48<davis->i like newbie better
12:48-!-davis- is now known as davis-_
12:48<yorick>glx: the errors left, but the warnings are still there
12:48<+glx>includes problem
12:50<yorick>they started when the standard libs got upgraded
12:51<@Belugas>Phantasm, it has been worked out a bit further :)
12:52<@Belugas>i do now have to find proper way to store the numbers to be dispatched for each day
12:52<@Belugas>and well as how to fill thoses days more... uniformly
12:52<@Belugas>or soemthing :)
12:52<@Belugas>thing is, it has to be network safe
12:57-!-Rob-Ankh [~Rob@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
12:57<Rob-Ankh>hi
12:59<Rob-Ankh>any detailed information about trams?
12:59<Rob-Ankh>are they much better then buses?
13:00<yorick>hm, why are the standard libs missing all win* files
13:00<yorick>Rob-Ankh: they can carry more
13:01<@peter1138>No they can't.
13:01<Rob-Ankh>I guess it depends on what GRF you use?
13:01<@peter1138>Trams are just road vehicles with additional restrictions.
13:02-!-Phoenix_the_II [rdeboom@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd
13:02<yorick>installing win32api might help, I said nothing
13:03<+glx>lol
13:05<Rob-Ankh>do the AI use trams?
13:05<yorick>nope
13:05<yorick>the ais in development might
13:05<yorick>but the ais currently in openttd do not know how to use trams
13:05<Rob-Ankh>do the AI use monorail and maglev?
13:06<yorick>I think they should
13:06<Rob-Ankh>do they also replace vehicles when they get old? and upgrade them?
13:07<yorick>they use train lines, roadvehicles, and sometimes ships
13:07<yorick>and aircraft
13:07<yorick>they build one vehicle on each line
13:07<yorick>and nothing more
13:07<Rob-Ankh>thats not true
13:07<FauxFaux>Clearly need to work on a new AI.
13:07<Rob-Ankh>train lines can have multiple engines
13:08<+glx>yorick: they never use ship IIRC (they don't know how to)
13:08<Rob-Ankh>I think the AI does use ships, or there wouldnt be a ship AI
13:09<Yexo>Rob-Ankh: are you talking about a new (NoAI) AI or the old AI in trunk?
13:09<Rob-Ankh>pathfinder for ships: original
13:09<Rob-Ankh>although I guess thats for player ships too eh?
13:09<yorick>that is the ship pathfinder
13:09<Yexo>the pathfinder has nothing to do with the AI
13:09<yorick>not the ai
13:09<Rob-Ankh>ah yes sorry my mistake
13:09<Rob-Ankh>i'll make a sea map and see if the cpu builds ships
13:11<@peter1138>No, they won't.
13:11<Rob-Ankh>I guess the AI doesnt use roll-in bus/lorry stops either?
13:11<yorick>NOPE
13:12<yorick>don't ask what it doesn't
13:12<Rob-Ankh>so pretty much any feature implemented after TTDX is unavaliable to the AI?
13:12<yorick>yes
13:12<Rob-Ankh>wow thats lame, the cpu isnt building any ships at all
13:12<Rob-Ankh>theres even an oil rig in the middle of the map
13:13<FauxFaux>You can't have oil-rigs in the middle of the map.
13:13<Rob-Ankh>if it helps, the mapsize is 64x64
13:14<FauxFaux>Ah. =p
13:14<Rob-Ankh>also, using a hovercraft in zoomed out mode results in graphical glitches
13:14<@Belugas>looks like we need bigger bounding boxes then...
13:14<@Belugas>*** joke ***
13:15<Rob-Ankh>the draw method for zoom out is incorrect :p
13:15<Rob-Ankh>or at least, its not perfect
13:16<fjb>We need full vector graphic support.
13:16<Rob-Ankh>someone did make a patch that corrected the zoom draw function actually :p
13:16<Rob-Ankh>they used a simple anti-aliasing i think
13:17<fjb>256 colours anti-aliasing...
13:17<Rob-Ankh>I'm very suprised that the AI doesnt use ships
13:18<FauxFaux>I'm supposedly intellegent, and I never use ships, why should they?
13:18-!-Yexo [~Yexo@dhcp-077-248-065-055.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg]
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13:18<fjb>To supprise us.
13:19<FauxFaux>The traditioanl AI has code for building ships.
13:19<Rob-Ankh>so how do you get oil from an oil rig then FauxFaux?
13:19<Ammler>has noai branch support for ships?
13:19<fjb>No.
13:19<FauxFaux>Rob-Ankh: I land-bridge out and build a train station. :p
13:19<FauxFaux>RAISE THE SEA
13:19<Rob-Ankh>what a waste of money lol
13:19<FauxFaux>LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND BRIDGE
13:20<TrueBrain>@op
13:20-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:20-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] by TrueBrain
13:20<yorick>you could just have done a @ban command ;)
13:20<@TrueBrain>@deop
13:20-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:20<TrueBrain>yorick: possible, but I wanted to be sure it went okay :)
13:20<FauxFaux>I really need to install an irssi plugin to tell me who just got banned.
13:20<TrueBrain>yorick: and concratz, this guy was by far more annoying then you are :)
13:21*fjb knows who got banned.
13:21*FauxFaux just looked it up.
13:22<FauxFaux>I haven't looked at the noai stuff much, but I understand it doesn't have support for trains, I don't understand why? Surely once you have the bindings for vehicles it's not that much harder?
13:22<TrueBrain>oh, +b .. hmm
13:22<TrueBrain>@op
13:22-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:22-!-mode/#openttd [+q *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] by TrueBrain
13:22-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] by TrueBrain
13:22<@TrueBrain>@deop
13:22-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:22-!-ben_goodger [~ben@host86-153-45-29.range86-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
13:23<TrueBrain>FauxFaux: just because it isn't done yet :)
13:23<FauxFaux>Fair enough. :)
13:23-!-Rob-Ankh [~Rob@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit []
13:23*FauxFaux would love to play, wtb motivation to code at home after work. :(
13:23<TrueBrain>oh, and Rob-Ankh, my attempt was to silent ~AlexFili@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com, not you (Well, you share the same mask)
13:23<TrueBrain>lol
13:24<Prof_Frink>lazy TrueBrain is lazy
13:24-!-Bobbie [~Bob@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
13:25<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: nah, it has little to do with lazy
13:25-!-davis-_ is now known as davis
13:25-!-davis is now known as davis-
13:25<TrueBrain>as now his name is Bob .. I mean ..
13:25<TrueBrain>how much more names does this guy have?
13:25-!-Bobbie [~Bob@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit []
13:25<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: I mean, "@deop" instead of "/deop tr<tab>"
13:25<TrueBrain>ah, yes :p
13:25<FauxFaux>-!- likes [...] has joined. -!- men [...] has joined.
13:26-!-ManyNames [~Lotta@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
13:26<TrueBrain>oh, for the love of God
13:26<TrueBrain>@op
13:26-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:26-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] by TrueBrain
13:26<@TrueBrain>@kick ManyNames and stay out
13:26-!-ManyNames was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [and stay out]
13:27-!-mode/#openttd [-q *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] by TrueBrain
13:27-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by TrueBrain
13:27<TrueBrain>really, enough is enough
13:28<fjb>TrueBrain: Where is your flood ping?
13:28<TrueBrain>fjb: at home
13:29-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host245-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
13:29<Wolf01>hello
13:30<TrueBrain>welcome Wolf01 :)
13:30<fjb>Hi Wolf01
13:31<TrueBrain>"2 problems with r14242:"
13:31<TrueBrain>"- it reports as r14239 in the title bar"
13:31<TrueBrain>I love some reports :)
13:31-!-mikl [~mikl@0304ds2-ba.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd
13:32-!-GeekyTeen [~GStaple@host86-151-90-81.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
13:32<fjb>It lies to you.
13:33-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-82-2-131-220.manc.adsl.virgin.net] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
13:33<fjb>peter1138: Is your screenshot with the bridge over a station online?
13:33<+glx>TrueBrain: of course, 14240-14242 were not code changes
13:33<TrueBrain>glx: :) You win a cookie! www.amazon.com :)
13:34<GeekyTeen>what exactly does noAI mean?
13:34<fjb>No artificial intelligenz.
13:34-!-OdwallaBongwater is now known as nckomodo
13:34<Yexo>GeekyTeen: it's a branch of openttd to create an api for new AIs
13:35<TrueBrain>GeekyTeen: it doens't 'mean' anything, but itis the name of the new AI framework, which allows custom AIs to be build by you, as user
13:35<GeekyTeen>like open source?
13:35<fjb>Like people from btcentral.
13:36<Yexo>GeekyTeen: what's your question?Openttd is open source, and some Ais are
13:37<TrueBrain>fjb: it looks like an investation ...
13:37<GeekyTeen>just wanted to know what noAI means thats all, and now I know. thanks
13:37<fjb>TrueBrain: They are like martians.
13:38<TrueBrain>GeekyTeen: check the wiki page for more details :)
13:38<TrueBrain>*blieb blieb*
13:38<@Belugas>GeekyTeen: the idea behind it is to get rid of the current AI ingame, which sucks.
13:39<TrueBrain>Belugas: the idea, or the current AI? :)
13:39<@Belugas>so instead, use the brain of humans to build ais
13:39<@Belugas>ai ;)
13:39<@Belugas>of course TrueBrain
13:39<TrueBrain>just checking ;)
13:39<@Belugas>funny you
13:39<GeekyTeen>the AI on the playstation 1 version is much worse
13:39<TrueBrain>your sentence was ambiguous :)
13:39<GeekyTeen>the trains actually LOAD from power stations instead of coal mines
13:40<+Eddi|zuHause>may i voice a different opinion? :p
13:40<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I gave you voice for a reason ;)
13:40<GeekyTeen>the problem with AI is that it only thinks one step at a time, not the bigger picture
13:40<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: I fear we are not able to deter you.
13:41<@Belugas>GeekyTeen, no, the main problem is the code ;)
13:41<@Belugas>it's hellish to the max
13:41<TrueBrain>fjb: well, we are, but lets not go there ;)
13:41<GeekyTeen>I guess making openTTD required a lot of cleaning up the old code? :P
13:42<fjb>TrueBrain: You are. :-P
13:44<TrueBrain>fair enough :)
13:45<GeekyTeen>are user-made AIs avaliable for use in 0.6.2?
13:45<fjb>No.
13:45<TrueBrain>hence the NoAI project
13:45<GeekyTeen>k
13:46<GeekyTeen>wow, so these AIs use things like Minimum Spanning Tree? wow, I had no idea
13:47<TrueBrain>pompiedom
13:47<GeekyTeen>I like the idea of testing out AIs against each other, reminds me of Robot Wars :)
13:48<+Eddi|zuHause>steiner trees are a lot more funny than spanning trees ;)
13:48<TrueBrain>banana trees
13:48<TrueBrain>those are interesting
13:48<GeekyTeen>random trees :)
13:48*GeekyTeen goes to his garden to plant a random tree of no particular description
13:49-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-187-179.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
13:49<|Jeroen|>plant somthing that bears fruit
13:50<Prof_Frink>Plant something that fruits bears.
13:50<GeekyTeen>it bears random fruit and/or random seeds
13:50<GeekyTeen>lots of games use random seeds ;)
13:53-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-187-179.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:53-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:53<fjb>Some girls also do.
13:53<+Eddi|zuHause>http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/04/01/funny-pictures-lolcat-seeds/
13:53-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
13:54<GeekyTeen>any good newGRFs for helicopters?
13:54<fjb>Yes.
13:55-!-Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggstry
13:55<GeekyTeen>k
13:55<fjb>l
13:56<GeekyTeen>m
13:56<+glx>n
13:56-!-Jerimiah40 [~jerimiah4@h66-244-213-147.pmcnet.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:56<Wolf01>y
13:57<GeekyTeen>because I can
13:57<+glx>Wolf01: you failed
13:57<Wolf01>no
13:57<Wolf01>:D
13:57<+Eddi|zuHause>maybe the italians have different alphabet :p
13:57<GeekyTeen>he gets brownie points for following his own destiny
13:58<fjb>Wolf01 only used a different datatype.
13:58<+Eddi|zuHause>EBCDIC?
13:58<fjb>Bool.
13:58<Wolf01>n->no y->yes
13:58-!-Jerimiah40 [~jerimiah4@h66-244-213-147.pmcnet.ca] has joined #openttd
13:58<fjb>Like I said.
13:59<GeekyTeen>we were progressing alphabetically
13:59<Wolf01>oooooh
13:59<TrueBrain>GeekyTeen: clearly he wasn't
13:59<fjb>IRC ist not type safe.
13:59<GeekyTeen>k-l-m-n
13:59<fjb>What about t?
13:59<TrueBrain>fjb: lol! I have to remember that .. IRC is not type safe .. haha :)
14:00<GeekyTeen>type safe?
14:00<Prof_Frink>Safe typing. Wear rubber gloves.
14:00<+Eddi|zuHause>statically or dynamically?
14:00<yorick>dih: I studied the code some more, the connection before PACKET_SERVER_JOIN times out
14:01<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: clearly neither one :)
14:01<GeekyTeen>anyone remember when you used to delete level crossings in TTO? :)
14:02<yorick>means you can only bruteforce passwords that have len() = 2 if you don't join
14:03<GeekyTeen>yorick: why would anyone have a password of a length of 2?
14:03<yorick>good question :-P
14:03<GeekyTeen>having a password length of 1 would be funny
14:04<Wolf01>I often use a space
14:04<yorick>bad wolf!
14:04<GeekyTeen>it accepts a space? lol
14:04<GeekyTeen>my default password is niave
14:04<fjb>That is secure. A space does not have len() = 2.
14:04<Wolf01>not on OTTD, in forums etc, if they accept
14:04<yorick>ok, len() <= 2
14:05<GeekyTeen>why can't you bruteforce passwords that have len() = 1?
14:06<yorick>see above, you can
14:07<+Eddi|zuHause><yorick> bad wolf! <- i fear nobody got that one :p
14:08<GeekyTeen>you mean the doctor who reference?
14:08<+Eddi|zuHause>who?
14:08<GeekyTeen>or did you mean red riding hood? or the three little pigs?
14:09<+Eddi|zuHause>i did nothing!
14:09<GeekyTeen>Exactly!
14:09<GeekyTeen>Now hurry up and get me Scissors! 61!
14:09<Prof_Frink>GeekyTeen: Don't blink.
14:10-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
14:10<GeekyTeen>Mr Flibble is very cross
14:11<Prof_Frink>Why's it got to be built?
14:11<GeekyTeen>Because the king of the potato people demands it
14:12<GeekyTeen>shall I get on my knees and beg him for your forgiveness?
14:12<Prof_Frink>What do you mean, why's it got to be built? It is a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.
14:12<GeekyTeen>Always take your towel with you
14:13<GeekyTeen>Thomas the Tank Engine is a really useful engine
14:13<GeekyTeen>Remember: Only you can start house fires
14:13<TrueBrain>Adams-freaks
14:14<GeekyTeen>Well, you're wondering how much money I have for a station, in all the confusion I kind of forgot myself... so do you feel lucky? well do ya? PUNK?!
14:15<GeekyTeen>noAI > original AI? THIS IS MADNESS!
14:15-!-Tim [~Tim@p5B37EC5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
14:15<Prof_Frink>GeekyTeen: There was no original AI. Only AS.
14:16<GeekyTeen>Thats only what you want to believe
14:16<GeekyTeen>tomorrow you'll wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe
14:16<+Eddi|zuHause>if you build it, he will come.
14:16<GeekyTeen>I'm Brian and so's my wife!
14:17<+Eddi|zuHause>if you want somebody to build it for you, press 1.
14:17<GeekyTeen>1
14:17<GeekyTeen>To be or not to be that is the question
14:17<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: How did you survive that thread?
14:18<+Eddi|zuHause>i skipped it ;)
14:18<GeekyTeen>I knitted a sweater with it
14:18<fjb>Ok, Ifeared for your mental health...
14:18<GeekyTeen>good, that means you do not fear for me now, i am as sane as Hannibal Leckter
14:19<+Eddi|zuHause>if 5 pages of posts appear within 2 hours, in a forum that often has only 2 posts per day, there can't be anything useful inbetween :p
14:19<GeekyTeen>Ships > Road > Train > Air... TAKE THAT stereotype!
14:19<Prof_Frink>Take That? Get out.
14:19<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Don't think you missed anything.
14:20<GeekyTeen>by the way, the fast forward icon just makes the program run twice as fast, it doesnt actually speed up the game. TOUCHE!
14:20<+Eddi|zuHause>besides, they discuss an outdated version of a patch pack... that can't be good...
14:21<GeekyTeen>good = bad = good
14:21<fjb>No, really not? But it is the patch pack with the most patches. It has to be the best. Doesn't it? :-)
14:21<GeekyTeen>If you're having patch problem I feel bad for you son, I've got 99 problems but a patch aint one, HIT ME!
14:22<@peter1138>How's the router?
14:22<fjb>It hit him.
14:22<GeekyTeen>router = trouter = trout = fish
14:22<Ammler>hmm
14:23<+Eddi|zuHause>you better slap yourself with it.
14:23<Ammler>@seen rortom
14:23<@DorpsGek>Ammler: rortom was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 5 hours, 3 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <rortom> TrueBrain, supreme commander :) lagged as hell ;)
14:23<GeekyTeen>my logic is impecable
14:23<TrueBrain>did someone took the wrong pill today? :s
14:23<GeekyTeen>the answer to that would be; banana boats
14:24<GeekyTeen>I am neither here nor there, what am I?
14:24<+Eddi|zuHause>that quote looks horribly out of context :p
14:25<@Belugas>AN ILLUSION
14:25<@Belugas>A nightmare
14:25<GeekyTeen>if my openttd directory is (23,754,026 bytes) how many ships can I make before the computer crashes?
14:25<TrueBrain>nightmare, I vote yes
14:25<@Belugas>a delirium tremems
14:25<Ammler>this rortom still does distribute our pack without permission...
14:25<GeekyTeen>answer in less then 10 characters
14:25<Prof_Frink>Dirigible!
14:25<TrueBrain>Ammler: sue him!
14:26<Ammler>how?
14:26<@Belugas>answer is 6 characters long
14:26<GeekyTeen>only forest fires can prevent bears
14:26*Prof_Frink fights for the right to arm bears
14:26<GeekyTeen>You gotta fight. For your right. To part with E.
14:26*hylje deploys bear cavarly
14:27*Belugas fights for the right to save bears
14:27*Belugas fights for the right to drink beer
14:27<GeekyTeen>its official, the Kirby Paul Tank is of no relation to Paul McCartney, take that Heather Mills!
14:27<@Belugas>someone has a pill for GeekyTeen?
14:27<TrueBrain>GeekyTeen: enough is enough already, cool down
14:27<Prof_Frink>Belugas: You have an @...
14:28<TrueBrain>(or interested in an other +b?)
14:28<@Belugas>yeah...
14:28<@Belugas>i do indeed
14:29<GeekyTeen>bye bye
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14:30<TrueBrain>@op
14:30-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
14:30-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] by TrueBrain
14:30<@TrueBrain>@deop
14:30-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
14:30<TrueBrain>(btcentral is dynamic IP, don't like to ban some random other person who is unrelated ;))
14:31-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*@*.btcentralplus.com] by peter1138
14:31<@peter1138>That's the real one ;)
14:31-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*@*.btcentralplus.com] by peter1138
14:31<TrueBrain>peter1138: hehe :)
14:31<Prof_Frink>/ban *!*@*.*
14:32<@peter1138>Hmm, I bought two components to build my headphone splitter... but I forgot I don't have a soldering iron...
14:32<@Belugas>i do
14:32*Belugas gives it to peter1138
14:32<@Rubidium>hmm, should I do a /mode +e Rubidium!~rubidium@rbijker.net ?
14:32<TrueBrain>peter1138: I still have to buy one too, only they are either VERY expensive, or suck ..
14:33<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you have chanserv access
14:33<@peter1138>Yeah...
14:33<Ammler>he has also no trust in the nightly server: http://87.98.141.190/ottdfiles/game/ ;-)
14:33<fjb>Especially with the new lead free solder...
14:33<@Belugas>i have mine for 10 years, i think and i guess that since it is not falling in the expensive category, it would sucks but surprisingly, it does not
14:33<@Belugas>it burns instead
14:33<@Belugas>ol
14:34<Prof_Frink>Sacro bums instead
14:34<TrueBrain>Belugas: buy me one too :)
14:34<@peter1138>I have a gas-powered one, but it leaks, and I've got no replacement gas anyway.
14:34*Belugas sets time-machine -10 years
14:34-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-187-179.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
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14:35<+Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: i think you are right ;)
14:35<@peter1138>Bouncy Sacro is bouncy.
14:35<Sacro>yup
14:35<@peter1138>Hmm, which bit is which in a TRS connector?
14:35<Wolf01>I would like to have fast forward on life like on OTTD
14:36<Ammler>orudge: still at quakenet?
14:36<@peter1138>Ah, tip is left, ring is right, sleeve is ground.
14:36*fjb gives Sacro a bouncy castle.
14:36<Sacro>woo!
14:37<@Belugas>Wolf01, no you don't... since there is no turning back, in OpenTTD nor in real life ;)
14:38<@Belugas>or rolling back, or revert-last-change
14:38<@Belugas>or else
14:38<fjb>Safe your life, so you get it back.
14:38<Wolf01>I don't want to turn back
14:38<Prof_Frink>Belugas: I'd like you to meet my friend.
14:38<Wolf01>only see forward, and quick as possible
14:38<Prof_Frink>He's called The Doctor
14:38<Wolf01>:D
14:38<Prof_Frink>fjb: Like a yeti!
14:39<@Belugas>Prof_Frink: why?
14:39*fjb invents a yeti at home project.
14:39<@Belugas>Wolf01: message : youth is wonderfull, getting old is... not as enjoyable
14:40*Belugas wishes he could be "just" 10 years younger
14:45<fjb>A tiume mashine won't help there.
14:46*yorick is running some tests to see how long it would take to bruteforce the rcon password, no, he won't publish :-)
14:47<yorick>it turns out bruteforcing slows the server down havily, enough to get a password with lenght 4 in a minute or so
14:47<yorick>hm
14:47<yorick>my openttd crashed
14:48<Wolf01>but, Belugas, a customisable daylength feature would be right on real life
14:48<yorick>after trying to clear the console backlog
14:49-!-Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-130-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: und weg]
14:49<@Belugas>Wolf01: already exists : called traveling ;)
14:50<yorick>but traveling doesn't have a patch option to make it affect your need of sleep
14:51<@Belugas>pills, herbal tea
14:51<@Belugas>hypnosis
14:51<@Belugas>listening to radio head
14:51<@Belugas>that is for more sleep
14:51<Wolf01>living to see the time flow
14:52<@Belugas>easy. heat your clock until it is liquid :)
14:52<@Belugas>it will then flow
14:52<@Belugas>ho boy...
14:52-!-Belugas was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [can you make sens once in a while???]
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14:53-!-mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
14:53<yorick>...
14:53<Wolf01>welcome back Belugas
14:53<@Belugas>:)
14:53<Wolf01>mmmh... I want to do something...
14:54<Wolf01>...to make the time flow faster
14:54*TrueBrain pets Belugas
14:54<eekee>I am playing a 64x64 temperate map with one town. It started with 3 coal mines. Now the 11th one has just appeared
14:54<eekee>Wolf01: I know the feeling
14:54<Wolf01>lol
14:55<+Eddi|zuHause>Belugas spent too much time interpreting paintings of Dalí
14:55<Wolf01>anybody tried my swamp scenario?
14:55<@Belugas>a cookie for Eddi|zuHause :D
14:56<eekee>Wolf01: link pls
14:56<Wolf01>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=39235
14:56<eekee>thanku
14:57<+Eddi|zuHause>swamp should be a terrain type where rails suddenly disappear :p
14:57<Wolf01>if you remove a tile of river you should see the sea coming and flood all
14:57<eekee>ah wow
14:58<Wolf01>a tile of river near the coast
14:58<eekee>I see
14:59<eekee>ahh wow. what terrain grfs did you use?
15:00<eekee>(in the screenshot)
15:00<Wolf01>the terrain should be the standard one, I loaded rivers and TTRSv3 only to make the screenshot
15:00<Wolf01>* and stolentrees
15:01<eekee>it's ugly without a rivers grf ^^'
15:01<Wolf01>yeah
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15:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14243 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2269]: clicking on the smallmap didn't break the "follow vehicle in main viewport".
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15:11<yorick>hm, possibly not so good, I can bruteforce everything before "dab9" with abc-order
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15:12<eekee>erm, how do you follow a vehicle in the main viewport? Shouldn't it be on the T key, like it was in TTD?
15:12<yorick>eekee: ctrl-click the eye in the vehicle toolbar
15:12<eekee>ahh
15:13<eekee>ty
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15:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14244 /trunk/ (Makefile.in Makefile.lang.in Makefile.src.in config.lib): -Fix: add 'Auto-generated' text when autogenerated, not in template (complain by blathijs ;))
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15:32*eekee hunts for rivers grf
15:36<Wolf01>mmmh seem that full load doesn't work very well
15:36<Wolf01>my trains leave half empty
15:37<eekee>I've thought that a couple of times, but usually it only seems not to work when the engine has some capacity for some different cargo
15:37<eekee>it fills up th eengine & goes >_>
15:37-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@78-21-228-27.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:37<Wolf01>no, it is a steam engine and it doesn't have room for cargo
15:38<Wolf01>every time they leave with a different load: all wagons 10t of steel, another time 25t of steel
15:38<Wolf01>another time they full load
15:39<Wolf01>I have not timetabled the schedule and the orders are set on full load any
15:39<eekee>hrm! what version?
15:39<fjb>Time table?
15:39<Prof_Frink>Times tables?
15:39<Wolf01>r14239
15:40<eekee>oh same one as I'm using. it's been ok
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14245 /trunk/src/ (gfxinit.cpp newgrf_config.cpp): -Fix: NewGRF configs loaded from the config file would always default to the DOS palette instead of the "default" palette.
15:44<eekee>Wolf01: where do you get your rivers grf?
15:44<@peter1138>http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/ probably.
15:45<ccfreak2k>Wolf01, or...half full?
15:45<Wolf01>?
15:45<ccfreak2k><Wolf01> my trains leave half empty
15:45<Wolf01>ah
15:45<eekee>peter1138: not there, nor does it seem to be in the graphics section of the forums
15:45<Wolf01>no, I'm pessimist
15:46<@peter1138>Well it is.
15:46<Ammler>eekee: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=681507#p681507
15:46<Wolf01>eekee, I downloaded them from Michael Blunck
15:46<Wolf01>'s site
15:46<Ammler>or from OpenGFX
15:47<eekee>I guess I missed downloading one of the opengfx files
15:47<eekee>also ty for link
15:47<@peter1138># discovery of fire, america,
15:48-!-nappe1_ [ohj8laka@adsl-109-202-79.kymp.net] has joined #openttd
15:48<@peter1138># the invention of the wheel, steel work and democracy
15:48<Ammler>eekee: newWaterFeature or something like that
15:48<@peter1138># philosophy, the soviets and other events in history of humanity
15:48<@peter1138># happened at a certain given moment in time
15:48<@peter1138>This lyrics sure are snappy...
15:49<@peter1138># won't go back, to the days, couldn't even start a fire
15:49<@peter1138># won't go back, to the days, america'd not been discovered
15:49<@peter1138># the transition has been operated for ever
15:49<@peter1138># what had gone on before from what there'd been after
15:49<@peter1138>:o
15:49-!-sunkan [sunkan@sunkan.bsnet.se] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.36 - www.nbs-irc.net -]
15:50<@peter1138>Tune's good though :p
15:51<@peter1138># you and me, are molded by things
15:51-!-sunkan [sunkan@sunkan.bsnet.se] has joined #openttd
15:51<@peter1138># well beyond, our, acknowledgment
15:51<Prof_Frink>You are mouldy
15:51*peter1138 mourns
15:51-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
15:52<Wolf01>eh... Pikka's industries raise the production also when the estimate transported is > 100%
15:53<Wolf01>sorry, I was wrong.. s/100%/275% :P
15:54<fjb>More than 100% transported? That is really amazing.
15:54<Wolf01>no, more than 275% transported, thats more amazing
15:54<Prof_Frink>Wolf01: Your regex is missing a trailing delimiter.
15:54<Wolf01>gah
15:55<@peter1138>NEVER forget the Trailing Delimiter.
15:55<Wolf01>s/\%/\\\%?
15:55<Prof_Frink>Wolf01: Again
15:55<Wolf01>doh
15:56<Wolf01>I'm not so good on regex
15:56<Prof_Frink>Unfortunetely you had stuff after the regex, so s|$|/| doesn't work
15:57<Wolf01>I tried an hour ago to search on the logs with a nickname and something he said, but without luck
16:09<Wolf01>'night
16:09-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host245-236-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:12*davis- gn
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16:15<dih>peter1138: i have a reproducable issue with cargopackets ;-)
16:15<dih>cargodest
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16:15<@peter1138>Good for you.
16:23<dih>i thought you developed on that branch too
16:23<dih>question on a side note
16:23<dih>newgrf's can be the cause of desyncs
16:24<dih>so a bug report regarding a game that is running with newgrfs is not always the best right?
16:24<FauxFaux>Yes.
16:24<Ammler>well, if you can reproduce it, why not?
16:25<dih>because i am hesitant to running my auto nightly server with newgrfs
16:25-!-Jerimiah40 [~jerimiah4@h66-244-213-147.pmcnet.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:25<dih>and was kinda hoping that there were some 'safe' newgrfs
16:26<dih>like generic trams or something
16:26<Ammler>at least the static grfs sould be safe :P
16:26<Ammler>should
16:26<dih>i dont need to run the static's server side
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16:29<Ammler>it should also be part of the nightly playing to find GRF bugs
16:30<dih>not as important ;-)
16:34<+Eddi|zuHause>brianetta is already on to hunting the grf bugs
16:35<dih>nice
16:35<dih>very good
16:35<dih>then i can leave it as it is :-)
16:38<eekee>oh crap. I can't load my savegames from today
16:42<+Eddi|zuHause>happens when you mess around with patches...
16:42<eekee>no patches, stock ottd svn pull
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16:45<eekee>in fact I think the only ones I can't load are the ones saved from the revision I'm trying to load with - r14239. It's also a nightly, so I dunno if anyone else has had the problem
16:49<eekee>compiling 14245 now
16:54<eekee>that doesn't load it either
16:55-!-Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
16:57<eekee>hmm the only trunk changes outside trunk/os/debian are trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp (2 changes, one a change to sorting) and trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp
16:59<eekee>is there any way to find what version a save game was saved with?
16:59<+Eddi|zuHause>err... the latter is very likely breaking something...
16:59<eekee>could well do
17:00-!-murray [murray@2001:470:1f0a:1be::ea7:beef] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:00<@Rubidium>saveload works fine for me
17:00<eekee>it adds a static_cast to one line: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset?new=trunk%4014239&old=trunk%4014234#file23
17:00<eekee>might be something wierder
17:01<+Eddi|zuHause>ah... i thought you meant local changes
17:01*eekee files it, with savegames
17:02<+Eddi|zuHause>i don't think anyone is going to be able to help there...
17:02<eekee>:(
17:02<eekee>I did some tricky track work in those saves, lol
17:03<+Eddi|zuHause>well, when you can't load a savegame, either your harddisk failed, or your version was changed
17:03<eekee>greeeaaaat
17:04<+Eddi|zuHause>like, for example, cargodest savegames won't work in nightlies
17:04<eekee>Eddi|zuHause: you're over-explaining
17:05<+Eddi|zuHause># Sin eriol natha túr
17:05<+Eddi|zuHause># In úgarnen Mi naurath
17:05<+Eddi|zuHause># Oroin Boe hedi i Vín
17:05<+Eddi|zuHause># Han i vangad i moe ben
17:06-!-murray [murray@2001:470:1f0a:1be::ea7:beef] has joined #openttd
17:07<fjb>Hm, Fva revby angun gúe also doesn't make sense.
17:07-!-welshdragon [~vista@host81-157-252-208.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:07<+glx>eekee: check the first bytes in the save game (4 of them are the savegame version)
17:07<+glx>IIRC
17:10<+Eddi|zuHause>00000000 4f 54 54 5a 00 69 00 00 |OTTZ.i..| <- this is what mine looks like
17:10<+Eddi|zuHause>eekee: failing to load savegames might also be due to lack of zlib
17:10<eekee>mine's very simila
17:10<eekee>r
17:11<+Eddi|zuHause>the 69 there is my savegame version
17:11<eekee>Eddi|zuHause: this computer hasn't changed much in the last year. It certainly hasn't lost zlib overnight
17:11<+Eddi|zuHause>should be 105 (dec)
17:11-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcd80.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:12<eekee>mine has 65 where yours has 69
17:12<eekee>Eddi|zuHause: you using r14243?
17:12<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: cargodest?
17:13<+Eddi|zuHause>custom cargodest with timetables
17:13<+Eddi|zuHause>fjb: "Es wurden keine mit Ihrer Suchanfrage - Fva revby angun gúe - übereinstimmenden Dokumente gefunden"
17:14<+glx>current trunk is 101
17:14-!-dazjorz [~dazjorz@82-171-113-142.ip.telfort.nl] has left #openttd []
17:14<eekee>0x65 == 101
17:15<+glx>right :)
17:15-!-welshdragon [~vista@host81-157-252-208.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
17:15<+glx>and it's like that since 14233
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17:21<eekee>hmm I doubt disk errors would affect a number of successive saves identically, unless my run of luck with hard drives really has run out :)
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17:27<+Eddi|zuHause>hm... i'm no expert on RIFF, but shouldn't anything remotely resembling the filesize be at the start of the file?
17:28<+Eddi|zuHause>well... you most likely just cut off the first 8 bytes and pipe the rest into zlib...
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17:30-!-Elukka [~elukka.el@bb-89-166-41-222.dsl.phnet.fi] has joined #openttd
17:30<Elukka>i thought i'd wander here
17:30<Elukka>hi
17:31-!-Celestar_ [~Jadzia_Da@mnch-5d876ec8.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
17:31<+Eddi|zuHause>i only wonder here...
17:31-!-Celestar is now known as Guest5302
17:31-!-Celestar_ is now known as celestar
17:31-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has quit [Quit: Quit]
17:31<Elukka>anyway, i actually came to bug you for help
17:31-!-celestar is now known as Celestar
17:32<@Rubidium>Celestar: can you take a look at FS#2260?
17:32<Celestar>Rubidium: yes
17:32<Elukka>i wanted to try if i could change a 32bpp, as an experiment
17:32<Celestar>Rubidium: will do
17:33<Elukka>what do i actually do with the pngcodec thing? it just appears for a split second and then disappears
17:33<+glx>it's a command mine tool
17:33<+glx>s/mine/line
17:33<Elukka>my nerdom must be incomplete
17:34<Elukka>because i have no idea what you just said
17:34<+Eddi|zuHause>that's because he missed the closing delimiter
17:34<+glx>you can't use pngcodec by just clicking on it
17:34<Elukka>so how can i use it?
17:35<Elukka>i failed to find anything in the wiki or the thread
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17:35<+Eddi|zuHause>i thought pngcodec wasn't needed anymore since we now have ini files? (or something...)
17:35<fjb>I would try to start it from the command line.
17:36<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: png codec is still needed to add offsets in 32bpp pngs
17:36<+Eddi|zuHause>then i probably misunderstood some statement that i caught on a half eye
17:37<Elukka>i do need to redo the offset if i modify a sprite, right?
17:37<+glx>only if your image editor removed the tags
17:38<Elukka>hmm
17:38<Elukka>right, managed to open pngcodec
17:38<Elukka>thanks
17:38<Elukka>another basic question... how do i repack the thing into a tar?
17:38<+glx>with tar
17:39<+Eddi|zuHause>with tar
17:39<Elukka>with... tar?
17:39<+Eddi|zuHause>tar -cf archive.tar filelist
17:39<eekee>I wonder if winzip might be able to make a tar file? I think it can unpack them
17:40<+Eddi|zuHause>but i don't think making a tar is necessary
17:40<+Eddi|zuHause>it just helps keeping the files together
17:40<Elukka>winrar did unpack it, but i think it can only compress into zip or rar
17:40<+Eddi|zuHause>well, you can just try to drag the file back into the archive ;)
17:41<+Eddi|zuHause>tar is not actually compressed, only all files packed after each other
17:41<Elukka>ah
17:42<+glx>with some padding 0
17:42<+glx>and a header before each file
17:42<Prof_Frink>iirc 7zip can do tars
17:42<TrueBrain>tar is optional yes
17:43<+Eddi|zuHause>it was originally meant as a tool to store several files on a tape drive, that allowed only the storage of one big file
17:43<+glx>Tape Archive IIRC
17:43<+Eddi|zuHause>so you pack the files into one big tar file, and then put the tar file on the tape
17:44<+Eddi|zuHause>the advantage of tar is, with some magic you can access the individual files without unpacking the archive
17:44-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has quit [Quit: Quit]
17:44<Elukka>...uh, i could just access the individual files with winrar, right?
17:44-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has joined #openttd
17:45<+glx>yes and sometime the magic fails ;)
17:45<+Eddi|zuHause>tapes were invented some 40 years before winrar :p
17:45-!-Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: goodnight]
17:45<+glx>we had nice weird bugs in NoAI because of failing magic
17:45-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has quit []
17:46<Elukka>the forbidden art of software magick
17:46<+Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: you don't need to make a tar, you can have the files in a simple directory
17:46<Elukka>how.. simple
17:47<+glx>just keep the structure you get when you extract the tar
17:47<+Eddi|zuHause>directories are actually more complex than tars ;)
17:47<+Eddi|zuHause>only the access is more comfortable ;)
17:48<+glx>they are in the tar
17:48<Elukka>some magic must have failed
17:48<Elukka>i have things setup for 32bpp, i tried it earlier and it worked
17:48<+glx>using tars is nice because you need only 1 FILE pointer for all the files in the tar
17:49<Elukka>now i have these grass sprites, the same file structure, yet they dont show up in the game
17:49<Elukka>could the problem be i modified one of them?
17:50<@Rubidium>yes
17:50<+Eddi|zuHause>do not do too many steps at once ;)
17:50<@Rubidium>as stated on the wiki page about pngcodec (should be VERY simple to find)
17:50<Elukka>yeah, i found that
17:50<Elukka>so i do need to use it
17:51-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has joined #openttd
17:51<Elukka>glx mentioned i need to redo it only if the editor removes the tags, which i guess it did
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18:12<Elukka>blagh
18:12<Elukka>ukset spoiled me
18:13<Elukka>now i cant play with industries that dont have stockpiles :/
18:13-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-187-179.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:16<Elukka>hmm.. i think i can use the us trainset with ukset industries
18:16<Sacro>Elukka: what about the atlantic?
18:16<Elukka>what
18:17<Elukka>ah
18:17<Elukka>slow
18:17<Elukka>im wondering
18:17<Elukka>are there any industry sets with stockpiling, besides ukset?
18:19<Yexo>Elukka: pbi (or is that ukset?) and ecs
18:19<Elukka>if pbi means pikka's, thats ukset
18:19<Elukka>have to look into ecs
18:21<Ammler>http://hg.openttd.org/developers/celestar/cargodest.hg/rss-log <-- those links are wrong...
18:21<Yexo>TrueBrain: the urls in the mercurial rss logs arewrong
18:22<Ammler>:-) now we are complete
18:23<+glx>they are nice
18:23<TrueBrain>LOL
18:23<TrueBrain>so don't use it :p
18:23-!-WhitePower88 [~wpww1488@tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
18:23<TrueBrain>stupid piece of software :)
18:24<WhitePower88>white power www.stormfront.org
18:24<TrueBrain>@kban WhitePower88 don't ever again
18:24-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~wpww1488@tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] by DorpsGek
18:24-!-WhitePower88 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [don't ever again]
18:24<TrueBrain>that OFTC let him in ..
18:25<+glx>did he dcc send to you too?
18:25<TrueBrain>first tor abuse I have seen
18:25<Prof_Frink>Aye
18:25<murray>me too
18:25<TrueBrain>glx: he DCC send to #openttd
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18:27<Ammler>might need worth to tell about at #oftc
18:27<Ammler>-need
18:27-!-Jerimiah40 [~jerimiah4@h66-244-213-147.pmcnet.ca] has joined #openttd
18:28<TrueBrain>Ammler: I think he is klined already :p
18:28<Elukka>if i install every ECS vector
18:28<Elukka>my guess is it will be crazy
18:28<Ammler>indeed
18:28<Ammler>begin with 2
18:29-!-Farden [~jk3farden@ram94-7-82-232-189-236.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:29<Elukka>do i need a special kind of trainset for this?
18:29<Ammler>you can easy add them later
18:29<Yexo>Elukka: the default trains won't work
18:29-!-Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
18:29<Yexo>all (big) sets that I know of do
18:29<Elukka>ah good
18:30<Elukka>haven't used default trains in ages anyway
18:30<Ammler>Elukka: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ECSSupport
18:30<Elukka>oh thanks, that helps
18:31<Ammler>Rubidium: is it possible that old saves now per default use dos palette?
18:32<Ammler>(on nightly with the new feature)
18:32<@Rubidium>Ammler: specify "old" saves
18:32<@Rubidium>what range of revisions/versions are you talking about?
18:33<lobster_MB>!seen AlexFili
18:33<@Rubidium>or are you using nothing more recent than the nightly
18:33<Ammler>save made with 14215
18:33<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: I've found the reason for the wrong routing with via/goto-switching
18:33<Ammler>and loaded then with the cargodest
18:33<Ammler>Rubidium: yep, didn't try trunk :-)
18:34<Elukka>i'm going to totally confuse my friends with all the new grfs im getting the next time we play multiplayer
18:34<Elukka>(again)
18:35<Ammler>Elukka: it is worth to read the docs about the GRFs
18:35<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: and fixed it
18:35<+Eddi|zuHause>that is good news, i suppose ;)
18:35<Elukka>real men jump in without reading any documentation
18:35<+Eddi|zuHause>but i'm asleep right now
18:35<Celestar>....
18:36<Elukka>no, i really do read it
18:36<Celestar>wtf
18:36<Celestar>my bed just collapsed :o
18:36<Yexo>I just tried to add NoAI to a cargodest build, but make failed with just an Error 2: http://paste.openttd.org/78530
18:36<+Eddi|zuHause>too much wild... wait...
18:36<Elukka>i've had 2 chairs collapse
18:36<Elukka>NOT WHEN I HAVE BEEN SITTING ON THEM
18:36<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: I'm alone and and NOT masturbating over the cargodest code :P
18:36<Celestar>Elukka: i _am_ in bed
18:37<Elukka>and it just collapsed?
18:37<Elukka>and you're still there ircing?
18:37<Celestar>Elukka: well, it's just 15 cm above the groun
18:37<Celestar>d
18:37<Elukka>ah
18:37<Celestar>but I think I'll be off and survey the damage :P
18:37<@Rubidium>Ammler: it should work fine in HEAD
18:37<Elukka>so not a big enough chance to warrant moving
18:37<Elukka>you're like my lizard
18:37<Celestar>Elukka: not really, no
18:38<Celestar>I've got to go
18:38<Celestar>:S
18:38<Celestar>exactly what I need at 1 am :S
18:38<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/what.jpg?t=1220567891
18:38<Elukka>"Oh, I seem to have fallen down. No matter."
18:38<Celestar>haha
18:38-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@mnch-5d876ec8.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Quit: "Reparing bed"]
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18:39<+Eddi|zuHause>the word is "whatever"
18:40<Ammler>TrueBrain: thanks
18:41<TrueBrain>Ammler: well, if I can help you with diong nothing, any day :)
18:41<TrueBrain>(my way of saying: tnx for what?)
18:41<Yexo>the urls in the rss logs ;)
18:41<@Rubidium>Yexo: most likely is a file listed in sources.list that doesn't exist
18:41<Yexo>thx Rubidium,I'll have a look at that
18:42<TrueBrain>then Ammler is thanking the wrong person
18:42<TrueBrain>I guess either Rubidium did it, or we have ghosts
18:42<+Eddi|zuHause>a propos... need to set recording time for ghost whisperer...
18:44<Elukka>ECS is strange and bewildering
18:44<Elukka>i really do have to read some documentation
18:45<Yexo>Rubidium: only thing I found is that table/palette_convert.h is not in source.list
18:45<Ammler>hehe, so Rubidum did answer my question about the dos while he fixed the url, thank you... :-)
18:46<@Rubidium>Yexo: the problem is likely caused the other way around (file in source.list that doesn't exist)
18:47<Yexo>I just found it (3rdparty/squirrel missing)
18:47<Yexo>table/palette_convert.h is not in source.list <- that is in trunk, so you might want to fix it :)
18:48<+glx>how did you get the source?
18:48-!-Volley [~worf@84-119-53-183.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #openttd
18:48<Yexo>glx: it was entirely my fault, I created a diff between noai and trunk and applied that to cargodest
18:48<+glx>hehe
18:49<+glx>indeed externals are not in the diff
18:51<Ammler>is there no hg repo for ai?
18:51<Ammler>noai, shouldn't that be easier to merge?
18:52<Yexo>there is an hg repo for that but I've no idea how that should make merging easier
18:53<Yexo>the noai hg repo seems seperated from the trunk hg repo (no common commits)
18:53<Ammler>well, don't ask me, just what I heard about mercurial...
18:53<Ammler>it might just be a "export" of svn branch
18:55<Elukka>holy hell, ECS is complicated
18:56<Elukka>this is awesome
18:59<Ammler>how many vectors do you use?
19:00<Elukka>i tried putting them all on, but i'm probably going to play with less at first
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19:08<Celestar>bed repaired :P
19:08<nckomodo>ECS?
19:08<Celestar>Forked: you there?
19:09<Yexo>nckomodo: extended cargo scheme (or somehting like that)
19:09<Yexo>see http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ECSVectors
19:09<nckomodo>I see ECS and think of Entity Control Suite
19:10<Celestar>TrueBrain: we could use the compile farm once more at some point
19:10<nckomodo>or was it Command
19:10<TrueBrain>Celestar: you can use it as often as you want :)
19:11-!-Jerimiah40 [~jerimiah4@h66-244-213-147.pmcnet.ca] has joined #openttd
19:11<TrueBrain>(After all, you ARE a developer
19:12-!-welshdragon [~vista@host81-157-252-208.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:12<Celestar>TrueBrain: then let's fire away (=
19:12<Celestar>3 critical crash fixes in
19:12<TrueBrain>right now? :)
19:12<Celestar>2 potential desync fixes
19:12<TrueBrain>that is bad luck, as currently it is working :)
19:13<TrueBrain>ETA: 12 minutes
19:13<TrueBrain>(testing 64bit debian package creation)
19:13<Ammler>:-)
19:13<Celestar>TrueBrain: that'll be ok
19:13<TrueBrain>so I will schedule cargodest after that :)
19:13<Celestar>TrueBrain: I'll try to stay away long enough (=
19:13-!-Volley [~worf@84-119-53-183.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:15<Celestar>but I still have no idea why we lose orders
19:15<Ammler>Celestar: will you make additional commits until then?
19:15<Ammler>or shall we update the server...
19:15<Celestar>Ammler: I don't think so
19:16<Celestar>Ammler: not before tomorrow noonish I guess
19:17<Elukka>hmh
19:17<Elukka>is ECS supposed to put masses of fishing grounds everywhere?
19:18<Celestar>yes
19:18<TrueBrain>250 seconds left .. tick tack
19:19<Elukka>im going to guess each produces very little?
19:20<Elukka>or its going to be a bit silly in that the world revolves around fish
19:21<Celestar>a bit ..
19:21<Ammler>hmm, what's that? http://paste.openttd.org/78628
19:21<TrueBrain>oeh, I love this building system .. auto-scheduler, auto-job-cleanup, flexible-procs-per-job, ...
19:21<TrueBrain>(Basicly, you only tell it: compile this, for this and this target, and off it goes)
19:21<TrueBrain>Celestar: compiling
19:22<Celestar>it rocks (=
19:22<Celestar>Ammler: you seem to have a problem with the system.
19:22<Ammler>hmm
19:22<Ammler>:-(
19:23<Ammler>reboot?
19:23<TrueBrain>Ammler: it looks like your hg is completely broken :)
19:23<Celestar>TrueBrain: I don't think so. The system reported "Too many open files" earlier
19:23<TrueBrain>check /usr/lib/python2.N/site-packages/mercurial
19:23-!-Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@user-54470bf2.wfd82a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #openttd
19:24<TrueBrain>Celestar: okay, that is worse :)
19:24<TrueBrain>(and really hard in nowedays systems :p)
19:24<Celestar>Ammler: try a reboot
19:24<Celestar>(=
19:24<Ammler>TrueBrain: it is a virtualserver
19:24<Celestar>Ammler: maybe we should
19:24<Celestar>reboot :P
19:24<Ammler>hehe
19:24<Ammler>> uptime
19:24<Ammler>uptime: couldn't get boot time: Too many open files in system
19:25<TrueBrain>Ammler: hmm, still
19:25<Ammler>omg
19:25<TrueBrain>mostly you are allowed 1024 files
19:25<TrueBrain>using that ...
19:25<Celestar>Ammler:
19:25<TrueBrain>what have you running?! :)
19:25<Celestar>I have an idea
19:25<Celestar>Ammler: try "ulimit -a"
19:26<Celestar>MEH
19:26<Celestar>stupid file server
19:26<Celestar>Date/Time: Fri Sept 5 00:26:16 CEST 2008
19:26<Celestar>Additional Info:
19:26<Celestar>CRITICAL - load average: 29.53, 20.23, 12.82
19:26<TrueBrain>LOL!
19:26<TrueBrain>fork-bomb? :p
19:26<Celestar>TrueBrain: no, IBM's backup software
19:27<TrueBrain>nasty as ever
19:27<Celestar>which is a SINGLE-threaded program apparently :P
19:27<Ammler>http://paste.openttd.org/78640
19:27<TrueBrain>1024, pretty normal
19:27<TrueBrain>Ammler: what is running?
19:27<TrueBrain>(ps aux)
19:27<TrueBrain>anything sane you want to close? :p
19:28<Ammler>closed yast
19:28<Ammler>now uptime works
19:28<TrueBrain>:)
19:28-!-Yexo [~Yexo@dhcp-077-248-065-055.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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19:29<Celestar>my user currently has 6000 files open
19:30<TrueBrain>Celestar: insane
19:30<TrueBrain>in so many ways
19:30<Celestar>it's just a normal session
19:30<Celestar>:P
19:31<Celestar>X + konsole + konqueror + kontact
19:31<Ammler>I have some defunct processes?
19:31<TrueBrain>where in /proc are the current open files?
19:31<TrueBrain>(I only know it under a vserver kernel in a VPS :p)
19:32<TrueBrain>openttd-web has 2000 files open (which serves ALL web-related material for OpenTTD)
19:32<Celestar>TrueBrain: heh ... some files are opened over 60 times :P
19:32<TrueBrain>the compile-farm has just 300 files :p
19:32<TrueBrain>so I don't see how you get 6000 :p
19:33<TrueBrain>... omg ..
19:33<Celestar>TrueBrain: for example all the locale files
19:33<Ammler>how do you count open files?
19:33<Celestar>Ammler: lsof | wc -l
19:33<Celestar>TrueBrain: the compile-farm does not run an X server
19:33<TrueBrain>don't have lsof installed on any of my systems :p
19:33<TrueBrain>very true
19:33<Elukka>hmmmh
19:34<Elukka>did the latest nightlies remove the "invisible trees with transparent buildings" patch?
19:34<Ammler>2615
19:34<Celestar>TrueBrain: so I have about 600 individual files open
19:34<Yexo>Elukka: not sure, use ctrl+x to set transparancy options
19:34<Elukka>there doesnt seem to be a way to get invisible trees
19:34<Elukka>just transparent
19:34<Ammler>but the dev has only 600
19:35<Celestar>400 of which are in /usr/lib
19:35<Elukka>which isnt invisible
19:35<Elukka>uh yes there is
19:35<Elukka>i suck, nevermind
19:35<Yexo>Elukka: as I said, use ctrl+x,and use the green box under the trees
19:35<Celestar>Elukka: there's a solid-colored-button in the transparenty options
19:35-!-nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )]
19:36<Celestar>damn
19:36<Celestar>I should have merged :P
19:36<Celestar>before firing up the compile farm
19:36<Ammler>server is now compiling...
19:36<TrueBrain>bad Celestar, bad bad Celestar
19:36<Celestar>well, no important fixing since the last merge
19:37<Ammler>Celestar: merge of trunk?
19:37-!-welshdragon2 is now known as welshdragon
19:37<Celestar>yeah
19:37<Ammler>dos palette :-)
19:37<@DorpsGek>Celestar: Temporary Offline
19:37<Celestar>Ammler: well yes.
19:37<Celestar>it's just a palette thingy
19:38<Celestar>TrueBrain: well, closing kontact closes almost 1000 files (=
19:38<@Bjarni>goodnight
19:38<Celestar>night Bjarni
19:39<TrueBrain>Celestar: LOL!
19:39-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:39<Celestar>TrueBrain: closing ONE of the konqueror windows, 400 files
19:39<Celestar>the other, another 400 files :P
19:39<Celestar>many many many shared libs
19:40<Celestar>they're all listed as open files
19:40<Ammler>FF?
19:40<Ammler>or don't you use it?
19:40<TrueBrain>Celestar: that aren't your TRUE open files
19:40<Celestar>nope
19:40<TrueBrain>lsof shows many many more
19:40<Celestar>TrueBrain: how do I get the "true" open files :P
19:40<TrueBrain>is in /proc somewhere
19:40<TrueBrain>dunno
19:41<TrueBrain>as I said, I can only find it 1-2-3 for my VPS servers :)
19:41<TrueBrain>all targets are ready ... but not Windows
19:42<Celestar>...
19:43<Ammler>TrueBrain: will OSX ever come back
19:43<Ammler>or is that "unsolveable"?
19:43<TrueBrain>more 'unknown'
19:44<Celestar>I'm 100% that compiling openttd for fBSD on the compile farm would be no hassle. so why is macos that stupid :P
19:44<TrueBrain>http://binaries.openttd.org/custom/cargodest/hd6fac260/
19:44<TrueBrain>/usr/src/OpenTTD/compile/src/station_gui.cpp: In member function 'virtual void StationViewWindow::OnClick(Point, int)':
19:44<TrueBrain>/usr/src/OpenTTD/compile/src/station_gui.cpp:1074: warning: 'offset' may be used uninitialized in this function
19:44<Celestar>Ammler: start new server?
19:44<Celestar>TrueBrain: checking
19:44-!-grumbel [~grumbel@i577AC4DD.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
19:44<Ammler>Celestar: still compiling
19:44<Ammler>forgot -j
19:45<TrueBrain>(for a change, MSVC is NOT complaining about that)
19:45<TrueBrain>Celestar: no Virtualization Software supports OSX (well VMWare claims, but ... we don't want to run VMWare)
19:45<Celestar>TrueBrain: the warning is syntactically correct. semantically not :P
19:46<Celestar>TrueBrain: I shall fix it anyway.
19:46<Celestar>TrueBrain: no other warnings? :D
19:47<TrueBrain>see the 'logs' dir
19:47<TrueBrain>contains all you want
19:47<TrueBrain>(and all I know :p)
19:47<TrueBrain>hmm .. a FreeBSD VM
19:47<TrueBrain>now that is a plan
19:47<Celestar>TrueBrain: I have one somewhere
19:47*Celestar wonders "was it VMware or Xen?"
19:48<TrueBrain>Celestar: well, it is not that hard to build one
19:48<TrueBrain>just needs to be done
19:48*FauxFaux wonders if a vs2008 and/or win64 nightly build log would be useful.
19:49<TrueBrain>Iron Man is a nice movie
19:49<Celestar>TrueBrain: /proc/sys/fs/file-nr and /proc/$PID/fd
19:50<TrueBrain>3456 on my workstation
19:51<Celestar>TrueBrain: open files is first number - second number
19:51<Celestar>4928 on my workstation
19:51<TrueBrain>second is 0, so that is easy
19:51<TrueBrain>last is max
19:51<TrueBrain>;)
19:51<Celestar>yeah
19:52<TrueBrain>1152 on my other workstation
19:52<SmatZ>2680 0 344117
19:52<Celestar>344117 :o
19:52<SmatZ>huh 344k max open files?
19:52<TrueBrain>(but that is just hosting mplayer and NoMachine currently
19:52<TrueBrain>SmatZ: normal value
19:52<Celestar>SmatZ: maximum allocatable file descriptors
19:52<SmatZ>ok :)
19:52<TrueBrain>the max value you ever reached it is
19:52<TrueBrain>so ..
19:52<SmatZ>I wonder, it is not 2**n or so...
19:52<SmatZ>ah
19:52<TrueBrain>highest
19:52<TrueBrain>that is the word :)
19:53<SmatZ>:)
19:53<TrueBrain>Celestar: happy with your binaries? :p
19:53<TrueBrain>I hope we can finish the new website soon, then at least I can make a webinterface for the compile farm
19:54<Celestar># cat /proc/sys/fs/file-nr
19:54<Celestar>4928 0 400000
19:54<SmatZ>nice :)
19:54<Celestar>TrueBrain: ask Ammler
19:54<Celestar>SmatZ: "echo $NUMBER > /proc/sys/fs/file-max" ;)
19:55<SmatZ>Celestar: :-)
19:55<TrueBrain>cheater
19:55<Celestar>:P
19:55<Ammler>the binaries are alreay "connnected" to the our dev server :-)
19:55<Ammler>d
19:55<Ammler>thank you
19:56<TrueBrain>I love scripting :)
19:56<Ammler>oh, and I wish you all a good night
19:56<TrueBrain>night Ammler
19:56<Celestar>nite
19:57*SmatZ guesses the third number depends on size of RAM
19:58<SmatZ>night Ammler
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20:01<TrueBrain>lol, the compile-farm is automated in such way, that I sometimes forget that when I make a test-proc, it also immediatly starts to compile it
20:02<TrueBrain>gives nasty suprises from time to time
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20:17<TrueBrain>well, good night to you too Celestar :p
20:21<TrueBrain>why do people always want releases fast and faster?
20:21<TrueBrain>like with some magic new things *poef* appear
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20:24<johnl>HEllo all
20:24<johnl>Anyone about? :)
20:25<TrueBrain>doubtful
20:25<TrueBrain>it is the middle of the night
20:26<@Belugas>naaa.. only thebeginning of it :)
20:26<johnl>Hehe, well it's the middle of the night here
20:26<johnl>And I'm about to start my work
20:26<johnl>Or I was going to, till I opened OpenTTD :D
20:26<TrueBrain>Belugas: but you are crazy ;)
20:26<johnl>I have a suggestion for OpenTTD
20:26<johnl>Maybe it exists already
20:27<johnl>I see in the Hot-keys that you can easily close all windows etc.
20:27<johnl>It'd be nice to have a button which lets you hide them temporarily
20:27<johnl>Like that feature in Photoshop which lets you hide all the palettes to work on the image
20:27<johnl>Does that exist already?
20:27<SmatZ>I don't remember anyone suggesting that
20:28<TrueBrain>sounds like an idea
20:28<TrueBrain>now code it ;) :p
20:28<SmatZ>:)
20:28<SmatZ>could be done via double-click on the window header
20:28<johnl>I was thinking of a key for it
20:28<johnl>Hmm
20:28<TrueBrain>Zephyris really is going for it ...
20:28<johnl>Tab would've been nice, but it's in use
20:28<@Belugas>maybe... but please... NO CTRL-CLICK!!!
20:28<johnl>Caps Lock? :)
20:28<SmatZ>mmm maybe ctrl+alt+shift click
20:29<johnl>Haha
20:29<TrueBrain>one almost would think that OpenGFX is nearing completetion ..
20:29<@Belugas>double-ctrl+double-shift + left-right click
20:29<@Belugas>use yor feet!
20:29<SmatZ>:-)
20:29<@Belugas>true, TrueBrain
20:29<SmatZ>false, FalseBrain
20:29<@Belugas>he even extends to new horizons
20:30<johnl>What about backspace?
20:30<johnl>Since delete permanently closes them, it kinda makes sense
20:30<TrueBrain>I last looked at it 2 months ago .. they were at like 30% .. now more like 80% :s
20:30<@Belugas>and i'm been called crazy? looks like SmatZ out did me :D
20:30<SmatZ>johnl: you want to affect all windows at once?
20:30<SmatZ>Belugas: :-D
20:30<TrueBrain>Belugas: SmatZ never out does you, don't worry
20:30<SmatZ>:-D
20:31<johnl>SmatZ: Yeah, it's just to clear the whole screen of windows temporarily, so you can see what's happening
20:31<johnl>:)
20:31<SmatZ>or you can play at 1600x1200
20:31<johnl>True
20:32-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B774EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
20:32<TrueBrain>I never suspected OpenGFX would make it ..
20:33-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77492.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
20:33<johnl>My other idea, which is far more insane, is translating OpenTTD into Irish
20:33<TrueBrain>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=86004 <- that looks cool :)
20:33<SmatZ>johnl: are you a volunteer? :)
20:34<johnl>Possibly!
20:34<johnl>Thing is
20:34<johnl>I doubt anyone would ever use it
20:34<johnl>:/
20:34<Elukka>i really need to bother to learn blender...
20:34<Elukka>i need to get unlazified
20:34<SmatZ>hmm who uses piglatin...
20:35<nckomodo>TrueBrain how is that water going up/down hill
20:35<nckomodo>is it just disguised canals?
20:35<SmatZ>johnl: http://www.openttd.org/translating.php :)
20:36<johnl>Yeah
20:36<johnl>I'll have a think about it
20:36<johnl>It's a lot of effort to do a translation, isn't it?
20:36<TrueBrain>nckomodo: just enjoy the picture, k? :)
20:36<johnl>The cross-over between people who use Irish and who play OpenTTD is probably me.
20:36<nckomodo>nothing to enjoy really, more to question really
20:37<TrueBrain>johnl: just a little over 3700 strings
20:37<TrueBrain>nckomodo: if you can't enjoy the beauty of tha tpicture, you never played TT :)
20:37<nckomodo>apparently not
20:37<nckomodo>its uh, okay I guess
20:37<nckomodo>I find more beauty in conways game of life
20:38<nckomodo>and the sweet noises it can make
20:38<TrueBrain>I like the way the sun falls in, and the smoothness of the grass :) I hope those guys finish it soon :)
20:38<Elukka>hmm... i could cheat
20:39<Elukka>since a lot of buildings are comparatively simple 3D models, i could do them in sketchup and export to blender
20:39<nckomodo>which reminds me, I need to get fraps and get a youtube video up of the GoL noise generator I made
20:40<TrueBrain>good night all
20:40<TrueBrain>Belugas: have a jolly good day :)
20:40<Elukka>nights
20:40<SmatZ>night TrueBrain
20:42<johnl>Night night :)
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20:55<Elukka>anyone else here like the occasional train sim?
21:15<nckomodo>I think everyone does
21:15<nckomodo>considering this is #openttd
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21:28<Elukka>heh
21:29<Elukka>trainz is my current train sim
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22:47<@Belugas>nice... can't fnd that patch anymore :(
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 05 00:00:41 2008