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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-09-10

---Logopened Wed Sep 10 00:00:53 2008
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03:00-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
03:02<@Celestar>good morning
03:02<Noldo>morning
03:02<@Celestar>life sucks.
03:02-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:03<Forked>eek?
03:05<@Celestar>I currently am in a state where I hate my work
03:05<@Celestar>I've been working 60-70 hours a week since start of August without basically having a single day off, including weekends
03:05<Noldo>what do you do?
03:06<@Celestar>Noldo: Doing my PhD
03:06<@Celestar>(read: underpaid and overworked slave)
03:06<Forked>crazy germans.. stuff like that is just not allowed in Norway
03:06<@Celestar>Forked: neither is it allowed here
03:07<Forked>"but there is no one else" ?
03:07<@Celestar>but no one cares
03:07<@Rubidium>Celestar: be happy you're not working at Stanford
03:07<@Celestar>Rubidium: should I?
03:08<@Rubidium>there it's standard to work 14 hours a day, 7 days a week
03:08<@Celestar>my Prof just was there for a month and said they work not much more than we do :-)
03:08<@Celestar>Rubidium: working 14/7 is just plain inefficient.
03:08<@Rubidium>true
03:09<@Celestar>there's a reason why PhD stands for Permanent Head Damage
03:09<Forked>heheh
03:10<Forked>Celestar: if no one cares, stop working more than 8/5 .. and see if they start caring :p
03:10<@Celestar>I'm considering taking 4 weeks of vacation from the end of this month
03:10<@Celestar>I still vacation left from 2007 :S
03:13*Celestar has 37 days of "shore leave" remaining for 2008 :P
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03:27<Forked>well use it fast.. the world is ending :)
03:28<@Celestar>yeah.
03:28<@Celestar>right.
03:28<@Celestar>;P
03:28-!-Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggs-work
03:28<Forked>you know.. WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!11one
03:28<eekee>my nephew worked on coils for the LHC. I'd forgotten about it
03:29<@Celestar>he's a murderer then </sarcasm>
03:29<@Celestar>why are people always shitting their pants when it comes to science
03:30<eekee>because they believe what they hear from paranoid idiots
03:30*SpComb is failing to view the webcast
03:32*Celestar is failing to concentrate on work
03:33<SpComb>hmm
03:33<eekee>honestly it's not like science is without failings, but some people take those failings and blow them up to massive issues regardless of whether anything better exists, and then other people hear the unbalanced issue and start thinking they may have a point.
03:33*peter1138 is failing to get dressed to go to work.
03:34<@Celestar>peter1138: wanna help with cargodest (=
03:34<@Celestar>instead of getting dressed I mean
03:34*eekee is failing to stay away from his mad plan to take over the world
03:35<@Celestar>why do you want to take over the world?
03:35<eekee>coz the current operating systems are all crap :D
03:35<@Celestar>it just sucks. Find yourself a planet that is actually worth taking over....
03:35<eekee>oh now you're talking, but taking over the world would make leaving it so much easier
03:36<@Celestar>That much is certain
03:36<@Celestar>We could actually spend money onto sensible things instead of finding new ways to kill one another
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03:37<nckomodo>so uh
03:37<nckomodo>are we dead yet
03:38<Forked>nah, they are only sending the beam one way at the time
03:38-!-mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: mikl]
03:38<nckomodo>yeah I know, it'll be awhile before they smash it together
03:38<Forked>http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/ (reading the webpages source is also reccomended)
03:39<nckomodo>hahahahha
03:41<nckomodo>what will be absolutely hilarious is if they find nothing new
03:41<nckomodo>at all
03:41<SpComb>http://twitter.com/cern <-- well, they do have a twitter feed
03:41<nckomodo>no higgs boson, nothing they havent seen before
03:42<SpComb>they'll make something up
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03:47<@Celestar>hah
03:47*Celestar wonders how inexpensive the LHC actually is
03:47<planetmaker>:P
03:48<planetmaker>Good morning to the last day on Earth :P
03:48<@Celestar>planetmaker: well. it's around 2.5 billion $, and about 10 000 scientists work on it. That's 250.000$ per scientist. This is not much more than the average PhD doing experiments has in his lab at our department.
03:49<planetmaker>well... yeah. Though it's nevertheless rather the high end budget alloted to PhDs :)
03:50<@Celestar>heh
03:51<@Celestar>well, if the world would end today it had a good thing. I could stop making this presentation right now .P
03:51<planetmaker>lol
03:52<planetmaker>Indeed quite true here, too :)
03:54<@Celestar>GO CERN GO!
03:54<@Celestar>BOOM BOOM BOOM please
03:54<@Celestar>or make a time-space disruption which moves the date back to Aug 1st, :P
03:55<@Celestar>DAMN.
03:55<@Celestar>still there
03:55<Forked>hello :)
03:55<blathijs>Was this actually the second time they're turning it on, or the first?
03:55*Rubidium wonders why today is so hyped?
03:56<@Celestar>Rubidium: I dunno
03:56<@Celestar>I'm trying not o work
03:56<@Rubidium>they're not even running high energy experiments yes
03:57<@Rubidium>s/yes/yet/ (stupid split keyboards)
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03:59<Forked>I don't understand it therefor we are all doomed!!11 DOOOMEEED
04:00<Noldo>Rubidium: the first beam day apparently
04:01<Noldo>http://twitter.com/cern
04:01<Noldo>didn't even run a complete lap yet
04:01-!-|Bastiaan| [~Bastiaan@77.60.199.138] has joined #openttd
04:03<@Celestar>it exited the collider before completing a lap? We're doomed
04:03<@Celestar>doomed
04:03<@Celestar>doomed
04:03<@Celestar>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39518 <= that's a nice one :o
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04:05<@peter1138>Needs a bit of work.
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04:09<@peter1138>Hmm, Phun could do with a grid, and snap to grid.
04:09<@peter1138>And possibly a measurement tool, and a way to input precise sizes...
04:09<@peter1138>Hmm, maybe that would be too CADish...
04:09<@Celestar>phun?
04:11<@peter1138>http://www.phunland.com/
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04:23<TrueBrain>morning lovely people
04:23<Forked>no greet for me eh? =\
04:23<TrueBrain>morning ass
04:23<Forked>heya =)
04:25<TrueBrain>so how are you doing? :)
04:26<Forked>sleepy.. sort of late dinner last night. I was suppose to have the pancakes ready when the gf came home f..wait, do you actually care? :p
04:26<TrueBrain>kind of. It does suprise me you have a gf ;)
04:26<TrueBrain>(mwhahaha :p)
04:27<Forked>me too
04:27<Forked>actually :p
04:28<@Celestar>ROFL
04:28-!-[alt]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
04:28<Forked>but then again she is one of a kind =p she use fluxbox as a window manager
04:29<@Celestar>O_o
04:30<@Celestar>mine still uses ... KDE
04:30<@Celestar>er wait .. so do I
04:30<@Celestar>but I'm using 4.1 (=
04:30*Forked is a CLI kind of guy
04:30<Forked>but linux is still a server OS for me
04:30<@Celestar>Forked: yeah I need KDE to fire up 20 terminals and a browser :P
04:30<@Celestar>oh and an openttd window sometimes :P
04:30<Forked>"sometimes"
04:31<@Celestar>Forked: well, I do a lot of cargodest devving/debugging with -vnull (=
04:33<@Celestar>unless I do something with the GUI
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04:33*Celestar notices that peter1138 still didn't say if he will help a bit with cargodest (=
04:33<Forked>he ran
04:35<TrueBrain>[com]buster: I am sure you are a nice guy, but for the past 12 hours you have more join/leaves then any of us talked ...
04:35<TrueBrain>please get your connection stable, or please leave this channel (and come back when you have something to talk about :))
04:35<TrueBrain>(same goes for Jerimiah40 btw, but he is currently reconnecting :p)
04:36<@Celestar>haha
04:38<Forked>I love my DSL
04:45<@Celestar>I hate my job
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04:57<TrueBrain>hmm .. my HD just crashed and didn't want to reboot until after a big boink on his head
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04:58<@Rubidium>sounds like my HDD that didn't want to spin up quickly enough so it timed out at booting
04:58<@Rubidium>you had to quickly turn the computer on and off so it was still spinning a bit so it didn't time out
05:00<TrueBrain>this is just an ordinary head-crash
05:00<TrueBrain>if it repeats itself, I need to make a clone of this disk soon :)
05:03<TrueBrain>oh, btw, WE ARE STILL ALIVE!
05:03<@Celestar>yeah. sucks. that.
05:03*TrueBrain gives Celestar a hug
05:04*Celestar smiles weakly
05:04<@Celestar>OY. RPG in #openttd
05:04<@Celestar>[me smiles hugely]
05:04*murray stretches and pats his backup system
05:07<Forked>reminds me.. my raid5 has 3 of 4 drives and has been like that for two weeks
05:07<Forked>maybe I should stuff in the replacement disk I got yesterday
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05:16<@peter1138>TrueBrain incites the Portal song...
05:16<TrueBrain>peter1138: hehe
05:17<Forked>this was a triumph
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05:21<TrueBrain>@kban [com]buster Please come back when your connection is stable
05:21<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: [com] is not in #openttd.
05:21<TrueBrain>LOL!
05:21<TrueBrain>@kban "[com]buster" Please come back when your connection is stable
05:21-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] by DorpsGek
05:21-!-[com]buster was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Please come back when your connection is stable]
05:22<TrueBrain>sorry, but that can be so freaking annoying ... :(
05:23<TrueBrain>hmm .. I heard that sound again, of a HD head crashing ..
05:23<TrueBrain>can't be good :p
05:23<murray>^^
05:23<TrueBrain>disk is no longer allowing access ...
05:24<TrueBrain>so .. new HD, and hoping 'dd' is going to do his job ;)
05:24<TrueBrain>(and that it doesn't crash while doing the 'dd', else it is going to be a long long day :p)
05:24<murray>hehe
05:24<murray>hurry ^^
05:24<TrueBrain>hurry is not what will help me
05:25<murray>so like
05:25<murray>is there a feature to let hdd's rest sometimes when they're not much used?
05:25<murray>i've heard one of mine reboot while the pc is running and everything
05:25<murray>quite a lot of times now recently
05:26<TrueBrain>a HD can go into suspend, yes
05:26<TrueBrain>but it should never ever do when it is being used
05:26<TrueBrain>(like .. the HD which is for your main OS :p)
05:26<murray>aah
05:26<murray>yeah
05:26<murray>well, yeah it wasn't in use at the time
05:27<murray>oh btw TrueBrain, thanks for your svn hooks-tips, it works great :)
05:27<TrueBrain>default redbook stuff
05:28<TrueBrain>okay, I should now really be shutting down and analyzing my HD problem .. be back in a few hours :p
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05:31<sulai>hi guys
05:32<sulai>I'm helping translating for the german language
05:32<sulai>now, {RAW_STRING} should always be {STRING} in any other file than english.txt, right?
05:33<sulai>What about STR_JUST_RAW_STRING, which is {RAW_STRING} in english... should this be {STRING}, too?
05:36<guru3_>does everyone remember that php landscape thing i wrote? then how i rewrote it in python? i've ported it into c++ now
05:36<guru3_>performance keeps going up
05:36-!-guru3_ is now known as guru3
05:37<guru3>now i need to get it to compile on os x
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>sulai: yes. ALL occurances of RAW_STRING are to be replaced by STRING
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>also: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrstraße
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06:03<sulai>so, "Fahrstraßensignal" fits best!
06:04<sulai>Eddi|zuHause: ~80 new strings have been commited to trunk yesterday
06:06<@Celestar>er what?
06:07<@Celestar>EVERY signal is a Fahrstraßensignal.
06:07<@Celestar>except those used for shunting :P
06:07<sulai>Celestar we thought about using "Fahrstraßensignal" as translation for the PBS signals
06:07<Ammler>Fahrstrasse sounds silly
06:08<@Celestar>Ammler: it's the correct technical term, however.
06:08<@Celestar>sulai: that would be reasonable.
06:08<Ammler>yeah, still :-)
06:09<Ammler>Celestar: btw, your optimizing for the dest patch rocks
06:09<Ammler>Rob can now join the dev server again and play
06:10<@peter1138>Street signal?
06:10<@peter1138>Heh...
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06:10<@peter1138>fahrstraßensignal = fahrstraßensignal
06:10<@peter1138>Fahrstraßensignal = Road signal
06:11<@peter1138>Silly Google translator, or silly German...
06:11<@Celestar>Road signal is not a Fahrstraßensignal
06:11<@Celestar>what's a road signal anyway?
06:11<@Celestar>Ammler: thanks (=
06:11<sulai>road signal is a "ampel"
06:11<@peter1138>Who knows.
06:11<@peter1138>That's what Google says :)
06:11<@Celestar>sulai: no, that's a traffic light.
06:11<sulai>hm... right
06:12<sulai>http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/swisskiss/Apr2005Blog/BangaloreRoadSignal.jpg
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>i really hope for that traffic light that they drive on left side :p
06:22*peter1138 ponders making a GPL graphics replacement set...
06:23<@Celestar>don't we have that with OpenGFX?
06:23<@peter1138>No.
06:23<@peter1138>They're arguing about license now.
06:24<@peter1138>You'd think that would've been sorted before any drawing...
06:24<Forked>Would it not have been better to clear that before you started? :)
06:24<Noldo>peter1138: and you are feeling abit like you told them so
06:24<@peter1138>Yeah, but I don't think I did, heh...
06:24<Noldo>peter1138: I think you did, at least someone did
06:25<@peter1138>Oh, I did.
06:25<@peter1138>Well, back in February :)
06:26<@peter1138>Well, in that case...
06:26<@peter1138>I did tell them so... ;)
06:27*peter1138 ponders posting that quote in the new thread.
06:28<Noldo>propably not a good idea
06:28<@peter1138>Don't worry, I pointed out that you reminded me.
06:29<Noldo>oh great
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>:P
06:29<@peter1138>Oh, alright then :o
06:30<Noldo>peter1138: btw check what zephyris said then about the license of graphics he had drawn
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06:38<@peter1138>Hmm?
06:41<Noldo>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=38122&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=1120
06:42<Noldo>right after your post
06:42<Noldo>"Very true, I have, from the start, stated that my graphics can be used under GPL, CC or similar licences."
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06:47<planetmaker>Interesting. And now it seems to be not good enough anymore :)
06:49<@Celestar>I think GPL is not the right thing to use
06:49<@Celestar>how about LGPL ?
06:50<Noldo>CC share alike - attribution 3.0 would be dsfg free and better for graphics than gpl
06:50<FauxFaux>CC SA-A is dsfg free? You sure?
06:50<Ammler>planetmaker: in the mood to update newgrf gui
06:50<Ammler>?
06:51<Noldo>FauxFaux: 3.0 is, just checked it earlier
06:51<FauxFaux>Ah. :)
06:51<planetmaker>hm... right now is quite bad wrt time...
06:51<Ammler>:-)
06:51<Ammler>I checked it self, but it is definitly to complicated for me :-)
06:52<Ammler>+o
06:52<planetmaker>I think we should bug peter1138 that the new newgrf win is a very nice idea & patch :P
06:52*planetmaker hides
06:52<Ammler>hmm, did you read his commnet?
06:52<planetmaker>err... no?
06:52<Ammler>last post in the thread
06:52<planetmaker>or too long ago :)
06:54<Ammler>sorting of the list for path view is wrong...
06:54<planetmaker>ah, that one. Yes, I read it :)
06:56<planetmaker>he, but looks like the cards are dealt back well at the patch maintainer(s) :)
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07:28<@peter1138>Hmm
07:28<Ammler>devs should maybe telll the OpenGFX'er that they should accept GPL, if they want distributed it with OpenTTD, else it will be complicated, not?
07:30<Noldo>GPL isn't good for graphics because of source distribution requirement
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see a huge problem there...
07:33<Ammler>Noldo: isn't that the point, they should also publish the graphic sources, so they can be reused later...
07:35<Noldo>have they?
07:35<@peter1138>In my opinion, to be distributed with OpenTTD, it must be GPL.
07:35<@peter1138>But that is not the opinion of all devs.
07:36<@peter1138>To be distributed alongside OpenTTD, it can be any free license, heh...
07:36<@peter1138>Silly ebay, giving me a list of tractors for sale...
07:37<Ammler>Noldo: if they want to be part of OpenTTD, they have to, imo.
07:38-!-reldred|work is now known as reldred|gone
07:39<Noldo>well, CC-NC-whatever a major step forward from the current situation even if it won't be distributed with OpenTTD
07:39<Ammler>current is GPL
07:39<ln>Noldo: major useless step forward
07:39<Noldo>I ment the graphics
07:40<Noldo>ln: better that nothing
07:40<Noldo>Ammler: what kind of "have to" is that?
07:40<Ammler>if they don't make it GPL, they should remove the "Open" from the name ;-)
07:41<Ammler>and replace it with FreeGFX...
07:41<ln>Ammler: GPL is not open, it's free.
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>GPL has nothing to do with free
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>
07:42<ln>it does
07:42<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: what kind of free is that
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>GPL allows you to charge money
07:42<dih>does sourceforge not offer a compile farm?
07:42<dih>yes - they are slow
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. it's not free (as in beer)
07:42<Ammler>ln: please define "open" and "free"
07:42<dih>but do they not have a mac server there to compile mac builds on?
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>but it's open (as in free speech)
07:43<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: interesting way of seeing the distinction
07:43<Noldo>I have thought Open Source means you can read the source and study it not neccessarily anything else
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07:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, everybody you ask will have a different opinion of what "open" and "free" means
07:44<ln>Ammler: as defined by FSF. (which is not necessarily what I agree with, but relevant with GPL)
07:44<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: that is so true
07:44<@peter1138>dih, "One example of a compile farm was the service provided by SourceForge until 2006."
07:44<@peter1138>Of course, I'm assuming wikipedia is correct ;)
07:44<dih>oh
07:45<dih>they dont do that anymore?
07:45<dih>that sucks
07:45<Noldo>but personaly CC-NC what ever is basically just freeware and not free software
07:45<dih>if opengfx should be part of openttd, it should go under gpl
07:45<Ammler>ln: well, that doesn't help me understanding "your view", so I just disagree with you :-)
07:46<dih>as the entire openttd project is under gpl
07:46*peter1138 ponders a 22cm fan to cool his PC.
07:46<dih>peter1138: just attach a vacuum cleaner to the cpu's heat sink :-D
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: yes, free as in beer, and not when you come with a tanker truck to get it.
07:46<@peter1138>Mmm, beer.
07:46<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: exactly
07:48<@peter1138>Hmm, 1500W ATX PSU...
07:48<@peter1138>Seems excessive.
07:48<Noldo>peter1138: btw what is the situation with including parts of boost?
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the GPL does not forbid to put an extra package containing non-GPL data on the same "medium"
07:48<ln>Ammler: free is free as in speech.
07:49<Ammler>well, you read Eddi|zuHause...
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07:50<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: that is why I don't share peter's and dih's GPL-only view
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>GPL with pictures is hard to enforce, i think. because you cannot prove that the creator of the picture did not work directly on the (png, pcx, whatever) file
07:51<@peter1138>You can with GRF ;p
07:51<Noldo>peter1138: mmm, how exactly?
07:52<Ammler>Noldo: most important imo is, that you can reuse the sprites without asking the author for permission.
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: the GRF chain exactly ends at the pcx that gets spit out by grfcodec
07:52<dih>why do people want _their_ support to a project treated a special way?
07:52<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: couldn't agree more, also the the source requirement is bit redundant because if you can view the media file you can do most of the edits you need
07:53<dih>it's not about what _they_ do, it's about the project they want to support
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07:53<Noldo>dih: that is something I agree with
07:53<dih>then give OpenGFX to OpenTTD and let OpenTTD decide how to andle it as THEIRS*
07:54<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, but nobody worked directly on that file, as you've only just created it.
07:54<dih>*Theirs = the Projects, namely OpenTTD
07:54<@Celestar>life sucks.
07:55<@peter1138>What's up?
07:55<Noldo>dih: that still doesn't mean GPL-only is the only way to go
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but if you count grfcodec like a compression program (zip, rar, ...), then the pcx file someone potentially modified and the grf file are equivalent concerning their "source"-dness
07:56<dih>Noldo: no - but it saves all the authors their breath, and shut up about what THEY want with THEIR work
07:56<@Celestar>peter1138: conferences, presentations, final reports .. the full blast
07:56<@Celestar>heh
07:57<@Celestar>gotta LOVE Deutsche Bahn. 2 people, Munich-Colonge and back (specific trains). 2nd Class: 427 EUR, 1st Class: 290 EUR
07:57*Celestar scratches head
07:57<dih>LOL
07:57<@Rubidium>take first class
07:57<@Celestar>I might :P
07:57<planetmaker>lol.
07:57<Noldo>why is that?
07:57<@Celestar>Noldo: apparently, 2nd Class is basically booked out, 1st class almost empty
07:57<@Celestar>(as usual)
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>the only way you can potentially handle a graphics-"source" is if you directly define what kind of image editing tool has to be used (similar to chosing a programming language and a code style)
07:59<@peter1138>Hmm, 1024 circles in a confined space... I need a faster PC :(
07:59<dih>all you self centered gfx authors suck!
08:00<dih>if you just gave your work to the project, you would not have to worry about the license
08:01<@Celestar>heh (=
08:01<dih>if you just dropped your own say in what you once strived to give to a project
08:01<dih>in what was supposed to be OpenGFX
08:02<dih>in what was aimed at making the project called OpenTTD free from the need of copyrighted graphic files
08:02<hylje>the existence of 'self' in general is detrimentar to communities in general
08:03<hylje>small amount of it, such as credits, might be useful
08:03<@Rubidium>adding credits isn't he hardest thing to do
08:03<dih>yes - granted, add a line for each author in the readme or something
08:03<hylje>AUTHORS
08:04<planetmaker>It wouldn't even hurt to say which grf author worked on which
08:04<dih>but all this "i dont want x to happen with MY work"
08:04<@Rubidium>even add a credits or authors section to *.obg and show that in the "about window"
08:04<dih>c'mon
08:04<dih>BS
08:04<dih>big time
08:04<hylje>pretentiousness is something that decent artists seem to build
08:04<hylje>good artists get away with it
08:05<planetmaker>Would it be a problem to have the grfs in a CC share alike license which allows free distribution and modification given that the original artists name is credited? I fail to see anything which objects this...
08:05<hylje>but even then it's damaging for any community efforts
08:06<Ammler>planetmaker: you mean every sprite?
08:06<planetmaker>well... if necessary.
08:06<Ammler>there will be only 5 grfs left :-)
08:06<Ammler>and most is in 1
08:06<planetmaker>eh?
08:07<Noldo>giving credit on sprite by sprite basis might help someone feel better, but licence is the real issue
08:07<planetmaker>Noldo: sure.
08:08<planetmaker>It has to be a license which allows free distribution and alteration w/o notice of the original artist.
08:08<Brianetta>Creative Commons Share-Alike (possibly with attribution)
08:08<planetmaker>Brianetta: :) yeah
08:08<Brianetta>without no-derivs or non-commercial
08:09<Noldo>I would like that (version 3.0 that is )
08:09<dih>i dont get those idiots
08:09<dih>i pitty them
08:09<dih>and if they do manage to push this through somehow i will refuse to use OpenGFX
08:09<dih>uh - Ammler
08:09<dih>just the man
08:10<dih>we can remove OpenGFX from the grfpack with the crap they are doing :-D
08:10<dih>or infact we might even HAVE to :-D
08:10<hylje>what are they doing
08:10<@Rubidium>ofcourse you can
08:10<Ammler>declined, we do not care that much about those licence things...
08:10<eekee>why on earth might you have to?
08:11<Ammler>as nobody does understand it anyway...
08:11<Noldo>Ammler: :)
08:11<hylje>nobody should care either
08:11<dih>i do
08:11<dih>because it's a pile of crap
08:11<hylje>because as of now the authors are getting a lot more than they possibly deserve
08:11<Ammler>I try to respect the authors wishes...
08:11<@Rubidium>does anyone actually know what the license is of the current opengfx *new*grfs
08:11<dih>any grf author, can do what they like i dont give shit
08:11<Noldo>Rubidium: no
08:11<dih>Rubidium: afaik that has never been discussed
08:12<dih>but as OpenGFX was supposed to have such a high aim
08:12<dih>basically 'freeing' OpenTTD
08:12<@Rubidium>so you are distributing something with unknown license?
08:12<dih>i do care a bunch what they try to do
08:12<dih>Rubidium: openttdcoop is distributing a bunch of stuff
08:13<Noldo>Rubidium: yes
08:13<dih>sadly, way too much where those in charge dont care
08:13<planetmaker>[14:12] <Rubidium> so you are distributing something with unknown license? <--- sort of :S
08:13<dih>i have a plan
08:13<dih>and i will do that :-)
08:13<Noldo>dih: please share
08:14<planetmaker>Though in the OpenGFX thread was stated, as also peter cited there, that it's made under GPL, CC or something like that.
08:14<dih>in due time
08:14<Noldo>planetmaker: that was just Zephyris about his own work
08:14<planetmaker>true.
08:14<Noldo>and he might have changed his mind
08:14<planetmaker>well. Can he revoke?
08:14<planetmaker>Once released under CC or GPL?
08:15<Noldo>CC is too vague so yes
08:15<eekee>I don't think the author can revoke rights after somehting is distributed
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08:15<@Rubidium>he can relicense it, but AFAIK anything distributed under GPL stays GPL
08:15<planetmaker>^^ my understanding. Yes.
08:15<@Celestar>my understanding as well
08:15<@Celestar>that's the main diff to the BSDL, isn't it?
08:15<Noldo>GPL would needs a version and the licence files should be distributed with everything
08:16*Celestar needs a particle gun
08:16*Forked needs a month off work
08:16<@peter1138>Noldo, yeah, I don't think that statement would hold up in court ;)
08:17<Noldo>peter1138: my thoughs exactly
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08:18<Noldo>though is someone was to take zephyris' work and distribute properly under GPL... well propably not a good idea
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08:20<Noldo>anyway somehow I still hope that the opengfx artists could be reasoned with
08:20<@peter1138>That was more like a statement of intent. It is not statement of license. :)
08:20<@peter1138>When I win the lottery, I'll solve it all ;)
08:21<Forked>do you play the lottery?
08:21<@peter1138>One thing I don't get is why they did it in 8bpp, but never mind.
08:21<@peter1138>Forked, sometimes, rarely.
08:21<dih>what do the devs actually think of that license discussion on OpenGFX
08:21<dih>what would you guys want? (WWYGW)
08:21<dih>s/want/like to see/
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08:24<@peter1138>I think it's amusing that they didn't decide this beforehand.
08:24<@peter1138>Argh, wiki.openttd.org does not contain the company's internal wiki :o
08:24<eekee>company's?
08:24<@peter1138>As in the company I work for.
08:25<eekee>*blinks*
08:25<@peter1138>As in I loaded up the wrong URL.
08:27<eekee>oh :D That's my kind of mistake :þ
08:27<@peter1138>Right, for the purposes of 'half a rack', how many U is the average rack...
08:28<dih>42U to a full rack
08:28<@peter1138>*nod*
08:28<dih>i win i win
08:28<@peter1138>I think I'll go with 20U, to allow cabling space.
08:29<dih>20 U is quite big already
08:29<@peter1138>I need to shuffle stuff around to free up a contiguous 20U space.
08:29<dih>all you need is decently pachted patch pannels
08:30<dih>i.e. 24 port at front and 24 port at rear patched to eachother
08:30<@peter1138>There must be some kind of algorithm for this :)
08:30<dih>lol
08:30<Noldo>peter1138: isn't it basically a backbag problem?
08:30<Noldo>I'd go for the greedy algorithm
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08:35<Eddi|zuHause>what is "commercial use" in the definition of the CC license?
08:37<@Celestar>what do you need half a rack for? (=
08:38<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: the example is basically that you can't charge money for redistributing
08:38<eekee>erm, if you refuse commercial use in a grf bundled with ottd, that bundle couldn't be shipped on CD for a small fee, etc etc
08:39<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: "You may not exercise any of the rights granted to You in Section 3 above in any manner that is primarily intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary compensation. "
08:40<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/legalcode
08:40<ln>can't be GPL-compatible
08:40<Noldo>of cource it's not
08:41<@Celestar>I'm tried and bored.
08:41<Noldo>though that is missing SA too
08:41*Celestar goes hunting food
08:41<ln>can never be included in any Linux distribution
08:41<Noldo>ln: well, ubuntu has all kinds of stuff
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>that's a pretty strict requirement
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say nc should be out of the question for an "open" gfx
08:43<Noldo>very much agreed
08:43<@peter1138>Celestar, customer wants it, for... you know, servers...
08:44<@peter1138>Although I appear to have lost 4U somewhere :o
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08:56<@Celestar>peter1138: why not buying a proper 42U thing in the first place?
08:58-!-welshdra-gone [~vista@host81-157-252-208.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:02<Brianetta>peter1138 writes cool patches.
09:02<Brianetta>Colour by group. Drive-it-yourself.
09:06<Brianetta>[13:41] <Celestar> I'm tried and bored.
09:06<Brianetta>Tired?
09:10<planetmaker>a bit off topic, but I'd like to share this link: http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
09:11<SpComb>ooold
09:11<planetmaker>not to me :P
09:11-!-Clinton [~chatzilla@123-243-60-98.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd
09:11<SpComb>/lastlog shows it from 15.5 hours ago and 5.5 hours ago
09:12<Clinton>Are there any scenarios for openttd that already have a rail network set up?
09:12<planetmaker>probably gravitation redshift of information due to a new black hole caused this information arrive at my place late :P
09:12<Clinton>in particular, real world scenarios?
09:14<planetmaker>Clinton: any savegame you find could act as a scenario.
09:15<Clinton>planetmaker: is there any place where there's some that people have based on real world networks?
09:15<planetmaker>but there are little "real world" maps out there, less with built tracks.
09:15<planetmaker>Probably, but I don't know where :P
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09:29*TrueBrain returns!
09:29<TrueBrain>took a while to sync 160 GiB :p (and of course when the new volume is 500 GiB, you need to do some moving ;))
09:30<SmatZ>:-)
09:31<TrueBrain>'dd' is slow when you use bs=1 :p
09:31<TrueBrain>lol
09:31<TrueBrain>bs=1024 makes it slightly more .. useful :)
09:32*eekee typically uses bs=1048576
09:32*blathijs typically uses 4096K or something
09:32<SmatZ>TrueBrain: any reason to use bs=1 ? to slow things down? :)
09:32<TrueBrain>SmatZ: default ... :(
09:32<SmatZ>:-)
09:33<TrueBrain>and I was wondering why my HD was going all crazy and it was so darn slow :p
09:34<SmatZ>I wonder the OS doesnt' apply any caching
09:35<SmatZ>sh.... after lunch, I can't fit in my trousers
09:35<SmatZ>baad
09:35<SmatZ>done :)
09:35<SmatZ>bbl
09:37<@peter1138>Celestar, what do you mean?
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>a block size less than the drive's block size is hardly ever useful
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09:42<Eddi|zuHause>i usually use something like 1024K (=1M)
09:47<FauxFaux>You'd've thought there'd be a way to do it without copying the data into and out of user mode by now.
09:50*Belugas wonders if peter1138 can come up with a sentence containing as many contractions with the same number of words as the last sentence...
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09:52<dih>hello Belugas
09:52<@Belugas>hello mister dih
09:52<dih>:-)
10:05-!-Swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>i only know a "Mister T"
10:16<@Belugas>i know one Mister Freeze
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10:19<Roujin>hey there
10:19<LA[lord]>hello roujin
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10:20<Roujin>Born_Acorn, are you there? Could you unlock the "Roadmap" page on the wiki? (or anyone else for that matter?)
10:20-!-Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd
10:22<Roujin>I think there should be a link to "New Features Since 0.6.0" there, below "New Features Since 0.5.0"
10:27<+glx>Roujin: this page is protected for a good reason
10:28-!-LA[lord] is now known as LA
10:29<Roujin>I understand. Does someone who may edit it add the link to "New Features Since 0.6.0"? I created the page to make a list of the stuff that has been added to trunk since the latest stable
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10:30<Roujin>As there's also the link to "new features since 0.5.0" there, i reckon it could be linked there as well
10:33<Brianetta>Improved Breakdowns ++
10:33<@peter1138>Bah, my lights keep dimming.
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>*mental note* leave time when pressing "ctrl,q", so it does not get interpreted as "ctrl+q"
10:36<Progman>Roujin: the talk page isn't locked, is it?
10:36<Roujin>no it isn't
10:36<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, or use a sensible keyboard layout that doesn't do that.
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: what does that have to do with layout?
10:37<@peter1138>Hmm, well, depends what ctrl on its own was meant to do.
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>ctrl on its own enables "shortcut" keys to links on a webpage
10:38<Roujin>i've written my request on the talk page on 23rd of August, but nobody has taken notice of it until now - so I'm repeating it here ;)
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>and q then selects the appropriate link
10:38<@peter1138>How strange...
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>in this case, the "quote" button in the post edit window
10:38<@peter1138>Ctrl on its own is usually ignored :o
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>not in konqueror ;)
10:39<@peter1138>Typical of KDE to implement non-standard behaviour ;p
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10:40<Eddi|zuHause>likewise, "ctrl,b" clicks on the "bold" button and stuff... it's actually quite useful
10:40<Brianetta>Celestar, peter1138: Would reducing station catchment area be an effective way of reducing passenger numbers with cargodest?
10:41<@peter1138>I want to test it without newhouses.
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's still too large without newhouses, imho
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10:47<eekee>smaller cachement area would go well with cargodest imho
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10:48<TrueBrain>Dr_Jekyll: in or out, make up our mind
10:49<TrueBrain>@op
10:49-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
10:49-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] by TrueBrain
10:49-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by TrueBrain
10:53<Dr_Jekyll>TrueBrain what you're trying to tell me? (i don't understand, not a native speaker)
10:54<@Belugas>he means that your repetitive attemps of connections are boring to watch
10:54<@Belugas>we wonder what the hell you
10:54<@Belugas>re
10:54<@Belugas>trying to do
10:54-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@62.113.133.253] has joined #openttd
10:54-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
10:54<@Belugas>and TrueBrain is not a native speaker, at least not in english ;)
10:54<@Belugas>nor am i...
10:56<Dr_Jekyll>i've tried to connect to my usual irc servers in the row i usually do it - but something was wrong with the startscript
10:57-!-LA is now known as LordAzamath
10:57<Dr_Jekyll>row = sequence, order
10:58<Dr_Jekyll>and well watching tv is boring too (at least for me) that's the reason why i have not a tv
10:59<Gekz>No-one natively speaks anything in here.
10:59<Gekz>lol
11:00<LordAzamath>I speak natively Estonian :P
11:00<TrueBrain>LordAzamath: you would be the first person on earth
11:00<TrueBrain>concratz :)
11:00<Dr_Jekyll>ok, then i don't have to beworried bout typos
11:01<Gekz>LordAzamath: that's one retarded language btw
11:01<Gekz>:P
11:01<TrueBrain>( LordAzamath: you do realise I was trying to insult you, right? :p :p :p)
11:02<TrueBrain>mwah, was a bad joke anyway :)
11:02<LordAzamath>indeed
11:02*TrueBrain takes it back and shows respect to LordAzamath's native speaknig :)
11:04<@Belugas>haaaaarrrgh Hargh hou hou hoummm yaaaaaa!!!!
11:04<TrueBrain>Belugas: bless you
11:04<@Belugas>native alright?
11:04<TrueBrain>lol :)
11:09<Roujin>so.. nobody wants to put that "features added since 0.6.0" link to the roadmap page? :(
11:09-!-Volley [~worf@84-119-43-162.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #openttd
11:09<blathijs>Roujin: Not sure who is allowed to. I'm not, anyway :-)
11:09<+glx>I can't
11:10<@peter1138>I can.
11:10<@peter1138>0.6.0 - This version will feature ...
11:10<@peter1138>Maybe that needs changing :p
11:13<davis->"Commercial use by OpenTTD - Very happy"
11:13<davis->eh D:
11:14<Roujin>i think you got that one wrong..
11:16<Roujin>i think this originated in someone saying that the sprites might be on a screenshot that might be on a t-shirt that might be on sale on that site that sells merchandise stuff of OpenTTD that was set up by orudge
11:16*orudge sells Roujin a t-shirt
11:16-!-Swallow_ [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
11:17<Roujin>that reminds me that I have to buy a T-shirt that says E:\> for my gf...
11:17-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc277.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
11:18<Roujin>have you got t-shirts of that kind on sale orudge? ;)
11:18<LordAzamath>davis-: That is currently being discussed, don't think that we are yet finished
11:18<@orudge>why E:\?
11:18<@orudge>why not C:\
11:18<@orudge>or A:\
11:18<@orudge>or B:\ :D
11:18<davis->ah
11:18<Roujin>because her name starts with E ^_^
11:18<@orudge>ah, heh
11:18<davis->E:\ = porno hdd
11:18<@orudge>E:\ = "Misc"
11:18<davis->same shit different name?
11:19<Roujin>I'm always saying shes my external memory, so now she gets a shirt with E:\> :P
11:19<@orudge>C:\ = main disk, J:\ = an old disk, Y:\ = home directory on server, Z:\ = media directory on server
11:19<@orudge>so now we know
11:19<davis->i splitted my hdds quite a lot
11:19<davis->c to p
11:19<davis->external is R
11:19<davis->dvd drive is S
11:19<davis->lol
11:20<dih>davis-: you mean hda1 - had20 ?
11:20<dih>:-P
11:20<davis->:s
11:21<@orudge>my DVD drive is D:, and I have a virtual drive F:
11:21<davis->ive 5 virtual drives
11:21<Ammler>davis-: and what does that help?
11:21<davis->i think
11:21<davis->nothing realy
11:21<davis->i just made some mistakes like 6 years ago
11:21<davis->and i was to lazy to fix it yet
11:21<Ammler>I see no reason to split a desktop in multiple disks
11:21<@orudge>however, I also have lots of things like C:\OldDrives\DriveJ, which contains an OldDisk, which contains a DriveG, which contains an OldDisk, which dates back to 1998
11:21<@orudge>C:\OldDrives\DriveJ\OldDisk\DriveG\OldDisk :D
11:22-!-GoneWacko [~GoneWacko@dhcp-077-249-197-241.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Redecorating my computer area]
11:22<davis->:o
11:22<LordAzamath>YAY. I've got 2 partitions :P
11:22-!-Swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:22<LordAzamath>win and lin
11:22<@orudge>due to the fact that now and then, I'd get rid of old hard disks (well, stop using them), and copy all their contents to an "OldDisk" folder
11:22-!-Swallow_ is now known as Swallow
11:22<LordAzamath>and I doubt I'd need more
11:23<@orudge>after a while, you end up with quite am ess
11:23<@orudge>a mess, too
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11:23<davis->hmm
11:23<davis->ive all my music on one partition , and all the games and movies on another
11:23<davis->thats all I need
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11:27<@orudge>I have all my music, TV shows, etc, in Z:\Music, Z:\TV shows, etc
11:27<@Celestar>gotta go
11:27<@orudge>which is on my server
11:27<@Celestar>cu later
11:27-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@129.187.69.65] has quit [Quit: leaving]
11:27<@orudge>ta ta, Celestar
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11:31<Brianetta>LordAzamath: Lose and Lin, surely?
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11:34<LordAzamath>Brianetta: How would you play all those gmods and hl2-s with Linux :P
11:34<Brianetta>Those whats?
11:35<LordAzamath>I use windows only for gaming
11:35<LordAzamath>Garrys Mod and Half Life 2
11:35<Brianetta>I play OpenTTD on Linux
11:35<LordAzamath>lol
11:35<LordAzamath>but other games
11:35<LordAzamath>?
11:35<Brianetta>Nethack
11:35<Brianetta>Linux too
11:35<Ammler>there are other games?
11:35<Brianetta>Oh, and Oolite, of course
11:35<@orudge>LordAzamath: HL2, etc, works fairly well on Wine
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11:36<Brianetta>I see people say stuff like that a lot.
11:36<LordAzamath>yes, but if I have windows partition, why should I do it the hard way?
11:37<Brianetta>You asked *me* how I'd play "all those gmods and hl2-s "
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11:37<Brianetta>I'm windering what they are and why you'd want to
11:37<LordAzamath>like, I've yet to see a man who has successfully played Multi Theft Auto: San Andreas on linux through wine :P
11:37<LordAzamath>Brianetta: lol
11:37<Brianetta>Look at it from my POV
11:37<Brianetta>I upgraded from DOS to Linux (via Caldera OpenDOS) before Windows 95 was released.
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>why does make say "[LANG] Generating table/strings.h" 3 times?
11:38<Brianetta>Eddi: It wants to be sure.
11:38<Brianetta>It's like invoking Satan
11:38<planetmaker>making maniac ;)
11:38<Brianetta>I updraded to Linux when Windows was still this optional thing for DOS users
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11:40<Brianetta>I'm still somewhat surprised when I see people play games in Windows. Back when I was in the un-free world, people used to quit Windows to give Doom more RAM.
11:40<Brianetta>That's if you could run Doom in Windows at all.
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>that was before they innventd directx ;)
11:40<Brianetta>So you still have how many hundreds of megs of RAM given over to inactive GUI crap?
11:40<LordAzamath>back when the computers had 32Mb Ram? :P
11:40<@orudge>well, you had direct access to the hardware in DOS
11:41<@orudge>which could be bother a blessing and a curse
11:41<@orudge>*both
11:41<Brianetta>You have direct access to hardware in DirectX. That's why they call it that.
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: the ram problem was about the low 640k... not that windows used some other megabytes that were not accessible by dos anyway
11:41<Brianetta>It's barely protected.
11:41<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: Not entirely
11:41<@orudge>Brianetta: yes, but I was commenting on the [16:40:31] <Eddi|zuHause> that was before they innventd directx ;)
11:41<Brianetta>There was also the fact that you could triple your available RAM by not running Windows in it
11:42<@orudge>but anyway
11:42-!-Skiddles [~notme@cm184.epsilon121.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>directx is more than a direct access layer
11:42<Brianetta>Still, the last DOS computer I had sported 2MB RAM
11:42*orudge has a smattering of old DOS games, a few of which he plays these days
11:42<Forked>any "official" openttd merchandise anywhere that is not cafepress? :)
11:42<@orudge>Forked: not at the moment
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>because it still has an abstraction from the actual hardware
11:42<@orudge>if you know of any better places to do such things, let me know
11:43<Forked>orudge: I don't, but CP puts the wrong numbers on the packaging and that gives us hell with customs :\
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>which is still a huge advantage over DOS
11:43<@orudge>hmm
11:43<Brianetta>I'd get some OpenTTD merchandise, but I'm simply not walking around with a giant dollar printed on me.
11:43<Forked>item: $X + shipping: $Y .. oh no.. they just do Item: (x+y) and puts only the total
11:43<Forked>I wanted the coffee cup :)
11:44<Brianetta>Basically, I'm waiting for a better logo (:
11:45<@orudge>what's wrong with a dollar sign? It doesn't represent any specific type of dollar, just "money" in general
11:51<Brianetta>yes
11:51<Brianetta>Out of context, it's not even clear it's a game
11:52<FauxFaux>Isn't there an official generic currency symbol?
11:52<Brianetta>It's just a big orange square with a dollar, and some lettering that might mean anything
11:52<Brianetta>FauxFaux: That wouldn't make me any keener to wear it
11:52<FauxFaux>)O( ¤ <-- that one.
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11:58<Brianetta>Basically, the T-shirt says, "Money!"
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>what would people (as in "devs") think about this: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/thousand_separator.diff
11:58<Brianetta>when I'd rather is says "OpenTTD! It's about transport somehow!"
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>it adds a pragma "##separator" to language files, to specify the separator for {COMMA} numbers
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>and defaults to ',' if not specified
11:59-!-mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. german uses '.' as separator
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>{COMMA} is used for (almost) any numbers that are not currencies
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. town population, waiting cargo
12:05<Brianetta>I thought German uses . for all thousands
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>that's what the patch allows
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>it was only possible for currencies before
12:06<Brianetta>oh, I see
12:06<Brianetta>"not just currencies"
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>all other numbers were hardcoded to ','
12:07<Brianetta>Some countries use a space
12:07<Brianetta>so it'll be welcome, I imagine
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>space is possible, too (at least i see no reason that would prevent that)
12:08<Roujin>hmm, i'm really wondering where I should create and buy that t-shirt...
12:08<Brianetta>Simutrans has a fantastic logo
12:09<Roujin>I found no decent german or at least european site where you can print photos on dark shirts
12:09-!-taytay [~tcohen@linagoraberri.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:09<Brianetta>Transport Tycoon's box image was good for a t-shirt
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>i like dark shirts more than light shirts
12:09<Brianetta>The Locomotion logo is great
12:09-!-ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has quit [Quit: ecke]
12:09<Brianetta>Eddi: Me too. Locomotion's logo looks good on black.
12:10<Roujin>also since the dollar is weak, I think ordering on cafepress.com would not be much more expensive than on an european one, even with the added cost for international shipping..
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12:10<Brianetta>Roujin: It's excise that hurts, not shipping
12:11<Roujin>pardon me while I look up excise..
12:13<Brianetta>Actually, it'd be customs
12:13<Brianetta>FOr years Customs and Excise was the same department int he UK
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>i think anything below the value of 20€ is free
12:15<Brianetta>Helen bought me a £30 compass from the states. The import duty doubled the price. UPS cheerfully paid it, and stood on the doorstep demanding the extra.
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>- bis zu einem Wert von 45,- Euro sind bei einer Sendung von Privat an Privat keine Gebühren zu zahlen. Dies gilt nur bei nicht-kommerziellen Sendungen, also z.B. bei einem Geschenk
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>- bis zu einem Wert von 22,- Euro sind auch bei bestellter Ware, Ebay Auktionen etc. keine Gebühren zu zahlen.
12:17<lobster_MB>!seen Rubidium
12:17<lobster_MB>oh wait
12:18<planetmaker>we don't have all day to wait, lobster_MB ;)
12:18<lobster_MB>well, i guess you're not a student like me then :P
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>note that the 22€ include the shipping costs
12:18<Roujin>Eddi: source? and does that include shipping cost?
12:18<planetmaker>:P
12:19<lobster_MB>i just forgot that this isn't #tycoon
12:19<lobster_MB>so no patchbot
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>http://testberichte.ebay.de/Zoll-Steuern-bei-ebay-Bestellungen-aus-dem-Ausland_W0QQugidZ10000000002395081
12:19<planetmaker>@seen lobster_MB
12:19<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: lobster_MB was last seen in #openttd 10 seconds ago: <lobster_MB> so no patchbot
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>lobster_MB: no, but we have DorpsGek
12:19<lobster_MB>arghueh
12:19<lobster_MB>alright, i get it :)
12:19<planetmaker>:)
12:20<lobster_MB>clearly the Dutch reign supreme with een DorpsGek as bot
12:20<lobster_MB>@seen Rubidium
12:20<@DorpsGek>lobster_MB: Rubidium was last seen in #openttd 4 hours, 4 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <Rubidium> he can relicense it, but AFAIK anything distributed under GPL stays GPL
12:20<lobster_MB>hrrrr
12:20<Roujin>bah, that's bad. The price is at 32 Dollars, which according to google is approx. 22,7 Euro
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>Roujin: well, even above that price, there's a chance that you don't get "caught"
12:21<lobster_MB>OS X 10.5 nightly discussion at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=39477 is turning out to be more than interesting
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>lobster_MB: so what do you need Rubidium for?
12:22<Roujin>Eddi: wait - in the link you gave me it says "without shipping costs"!
12:23<lobster_MB>Eddi: i wanted to ask him about the details of compiling
12:23<Roujin>iso the 22 euro do not include the shipping costs..
12:23<Roujin>-i
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>"Wichtig ist also, dass die Bemessungsgrundlage auch die Versandkosten enthält." <- i read that sentence
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>but that appears to be referring to the additional payment
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>very confusing ;)
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>lobster_MB: and why can you only do that with Rubidium?
12:25<Roujin>yes oO
12:26<Roujin>but I should be fine, since the actual product value is only $19.99 (times 0.71 according to google makes less than 22 Euro in any case)
12:28<Roujin>I'll only see if I find some official page confirming what that link you gave me says
12:28<Roujin>done. :)
12:29<Roujin>as long as it's not alcohol, tobacco, coffee or perfumes, the < 22 Eur rule applies :)
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12:38<lobster>Eddi: because he was involved in the aforementioned discussion
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12:41<Brianetta>I like Simutrans' orders system
12:41<Brianetta>You make a line (schedule of orders) and assign vehicles to it.
12:41<Brianetta>It's like shared orders but cleaner.
12:42<TrueBrain>lobster / lobster_MB: (pick a client for crying out loud): how is that typing more than interesting?
12:42<TrueBrain>it is as boring as any other topic regarding the subject
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12:47<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: yeah, i'd like that, too
12:47<TrueBrain>Brianetta: it is the reverse approach, if I read you correctly :)
12:47<TrueBrain>sounds worth implementing in OpenTTD ;)
12:47<Brianetta>I am trying to get Helen playing OpenTTD
12:47<Brianetta>The orders thing just totally bewildered her
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>good luck ;)
12:47<Brianetta>We were just making a coal truck service
12:48<Brianetta>Even the very basics, like "How do I get the coal from the coal mine to the station?"
12:48<Brianetta>("you don't")
12:48<TrueBrain>send me $10! :p
12:48<Brianetta>Made me realise how much of this game I know because I've been playing it for 14 years
12:49-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-245-1.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:49<Brianetta>Things sometimes aren't obvious, and I'm no longer aware of that
12:50<TrueBrain>Brianetta: write them down, cna only improve OpenTTD
12:50<Brianetta>Possibly.
12:50<TrueBrain>bah, now I remember why I hated the mirror in .hu ..
12:50<Brianetta>I rather suspect I'll be asked to provide the patch, too
12:50<TrueBrain>more conenction drops then a rain-storm
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>"wiki: How to get your wife playing openttd"
12:50<TrueBrain>Brianetta: depends on who you ask ;)
12:50<Brianetta>I'll do some research with my wife.
12:50-!-[1]Roujin [HydraIRC@e112.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #openttd
12:51<Brianetta>re Roujin
12:51<TrueBrain>I had to send a file 4 (!) times before it came over in one piece .. omg ..
12:52<@Belugas>[12:50] <Eddi|zuHause> "wiki: How to get your wife playing openttd" <--- mmmh... would love to read and let HER read it too ;)
12:52<lobster>TrueBrain: most certainly it's interesting for OS X users like myself. i've not been able to play a game with for instance the new vehicle pool thing
12:52<TrueBrain>lobster: the only other way (besides the obvious removing 10.5 Intel :p :p), is to compile yourself
12:52<lobster>the broken Leopard builds had bothered me for ages, so this is an exciting prospect
12:52<+glx>lobster: you can still use the PPC version
12:53<lobster>glx: yes, but that slowed down the game to a problematic level\
12:53<lobster>TrueBrain: quite true
12:53<Brianetta>I'm going to compose a list of UI stumbling blocks, with perhaps alternative ways of explaining what's going on and (occasionally) a suggestion for a change to the game.
12:53<TrueBrain>lobster: as that might be, just reliase that we can never distribute such binary as 'official' binary of any kind
12:53<Brianetta>As an example, shared orders would require a gameplay change
12:53<lobster>i wouldn't expect you to. TrueBrain
12:54<Brianetta>I'm led to believe, though, that there's no addressable list of orders lists
12:54<Brianetta>It's all done by copying pointers
12:54-!-Volley [~worf@84-119-43-162.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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12:54<Brianetta>so any changes like this won't be popular with devs who'd have to do work
12:54<TrueBrain>lobster: so what is new? He isn't the first to suggest building nightlies himself .. the last person who 'tried', did it for 2 days
12:54<TrueBrain>whoho
12:55<@peter1138>Hello.
12:55-!-Roujin [HydraIRC@e112.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:55<@peter1138>What's going on?
12:55*TrueBrain hugs peter1138
12:55-!-[1]Roujin is now known as Roujin
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i need someone committing http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2287 :)
12:57<lobster>perhaps i'm being positive, but i do have some faith in this, TrueBrain
12:57<@peter1138>Brianetta, what's the connection between order lists and UI stumbling blocks?
12:57<lobster>and on that bombshell, i'm off to buy some dinner
12:57<TrueBrain>lobster: and maybe I have seen too many of those people passing by ;) I hope for you it works out :)
12:57<Brianetta>peter1138: There's a really opaque UI to shared orders
12:57<TrueBrain>in the mean time, I give an other try to get 10.5 Intel official supported ..
12:57*TrueBrain hates OSX for the complexity ..
12:58<Brianetta>peter1138: Compare to Simutrans, which has a really elegant idea
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12:58<@peter1138>Indeed.
12:58<Brianetta>You define a "line" and assign your vehicles to it
12:58-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
12:58<Brianetta>whereas you can't bring up a list of order lists in openttd
12:58<@peter1138>That's what vehicle groups should have been, possibly.
12:58<Brianetta>and searching for them is, I'm led to believe, expensive.
12:59<Brianetta>Perhaps vehicle groups could become this
12:59<Brianetta>Combine vehicle groups with shared orders (and liveries)
12:59<@peter1138>That would conflict with existing uses of vehicle groups.
12:59<Brianetta>There are existing uses?
12:59<Brianetta>I didn't see any
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes, conditional autoreplace, for example
12:59<@peter1138>I use them on your server ;)
13:00<@peter1138>I have groups for freight services, groups for express lines, etc...
13:00<Brianetta>Well, I wasn't psychic enough to figure that out. Another thing for the list.
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>only replace vehicles you manually move to the "replace" group
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13:01<Brianetta>Conditional autoreplace would likely be wanted for all trains on a shared orders list anyway
13:01<Brianetta>autoreplace is such an artificial idea
13:01<Brianetta>so how about grouped groups
13:01<Brianetta>a hierarchy
13:01<@peter1138>:o
13:01<Brianetta>with each leaf group having an order list
13:01<Brianetta>whichoverrides the one above
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but lacking the ability to slowly rotate out engines to the "lower" services, autoreplace is the only useful way
13:02<Brianetta>and a livery which overrides the one above
13:02<Brianetta>Eddi: You could just shift it to a slower group
13:02<Brianetta>and it'd just get those orders and be off
13:02<Brianetta>and even a new livery (:
13:02<eekee>SmatZ: Thanks for the patch!
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: yes, but switching out the wagons and stuff is a big hassle
13:03<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, could separator ever need to contain more than one character, or a UTF-8 encoded character?
13:03<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: That's an aspect of the UI which needs improvement, too
13:03<Brianetta>but re-purposing a train is something I always considered part of the game play
13:04<Brianetta>In my last game I was always so short of money, every wagon counted
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i didn't see any uses for multi-character separators, but utf-8 might be a valid concern
13:04<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, and also, do we ever use decimal separators? hehe
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: no
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>about "will we ever...", i'm not psychic enough for that ;)
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it should not be a huge problem to make it a char[8] or something
13:07*Brianetta is off home
13:07<Brianetta>bbl
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13:09<davis-->-.
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13:14<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i don't know how to properly copy the separator-string into the buffer...
13:23<SmatZ>eekee: ... you are welcome :) but what patch are you talking about?
13:24<Roujin>see you
13:24<Roujin>going home now :)
13:24<Roujin>thanks for your help earlier Eddi|zuHause
13:24<eekee>SmatZ: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2272
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13:29<Wolf01>hello
13:30<ln>ciao a lhc
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13:31<SmatZ>ahh, you are welcome, eekee :-)
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13:46<Brianetta>re
13:47<@peter1138>Hi.
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: btw. the currency separator is not multi/utf-8 capable either
13:51<@peter1138>*nod*
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14:00<Wolf01>does anybody knows how to block a connecction to an IP using Local Security Settings / IP Security Policies?
14:00<@peter1138>Yes.
14:02<Wolf01>ok, I added an entry to the IP filter list, an entry with "block" as rule to filter operations
14:03<Wolf01>and I'm trying to add a policy, I activated it but the IP is reachable :(
14:03<davis-->:[
14:03-!-LA [~chatzilla@82.131.17.255.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
14:04<@peter1138>Well it worked :)
14:04<@peter1138>If I remember correctly you need to create an 'allow' rule, and then add that as the 'catch all'
14:05<@peter1138>The only time I set up that stuff I was creating is as default-deny anyway.
14:05<@peter1138>Wolf01, your solution is to go to the machine and remove the filter.
14:05-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-213-249-245-1.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
14:05<Wolf01>uhm
14:06<Wolf01>I think I'll install a firewall...
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14:33<Eddi|zuHause>err... i have a missing catenary pylon
14:34<ln>the DB wants it back
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14:58<@peter1138>Rubidium, does the obg system allow for 32bpp-only graphics replacement?
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15:50<@Rubidium>peter1138: no, it's pure 8 bits grf
15:50<@Rubidium>and you can't do 32 bits anyways because then you miss colour mappings and such
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15:51<@Rubidium>one could ofcourse make a bare minimum 1x1 pixel obg and replace that immediatelly with pngs
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16:22<ln>are we still alive?
16:24<Rexxars>check http://www.hasthelhcdestroyedtheearth.com/
16:25<Aylomen>welcome to heaven's chat.......or hell's chat?
16:28<Wolf01>http://www.spore.com/sporepedia#qry=srch-fortune%2520teller%3Asast-500009628953%3Apg-24 (if the link does not show one single creature copy it on the browser, I don't know why doesn't work from chat) lol, this looks like the fishing-frog fish :O
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16:31<ln>the what?
16:32<Wolf01>the fish with the large mouth and the light
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>the what?
16:37<Wolf01>like in the Spongebob movie, the fake ice cream kiosk, which was the fish tongue
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>i really feel sorry for you, for watching spongebob :p
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16:47<Wolf01>spongebob is funny... it's whacky
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17:08<ln>hmm, good points: http://www.iltasanomat.fi/videot/viihde/1584831 (the video is in english, don't worry)
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17:23<Prof_Frink>:beef
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>does that do anything in vim?
17:24<Prof_Frink>Let's find out!
17:24<Prof_Frink>E492: Not an editor command: beef
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18:22<Ammler>hmm, I desync without original grfs...
18:24<Ammler>or is it possible that sample.cat can desync?
18:27<Nite_Owl>!log
18:27<Nite_Owl>!Logs
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>sample.cat only contains the sound files
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>are different things happening when sounds that should be there are not played?
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>like different random decisions whether to play a sound?
18:30<+glx>not that I know of
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>i can't think of a reason either
18:31<Ammler>I created a empty file sample.cat
18:31<Ammler>or is there an other possibility
18:31<Ammler>seems somehow forgotten from Rubidum :-)
18:31<+glx>vehicle sprite "size"?
18:31<Ammler>+i
18:32<Ammler>replaced the empty file now with original sample.cat, no desync
18:33<Ammler>the font of OpenGFX isn't that optimal
18:35<Ammler>got a strange error if I join with empty sample.cat
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18:44<Wolf01>'night
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18:55<Ammler>glx> vehicle sprite "size"? <-- yeah!
18:55<Ammler>what has that to do with sample.cat?
19:00<Ammler>I can join dihedral's nightly...
19:01*Ammler is going to read changelog :-)
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>so 0.6 desyncs but nightly does not?
19:04<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: no
19:04<Ammler>yesterday nightly does
19:04<Ammler>todays not
19:04<Ammler>but there are only 3 changes between
19:04<Ammler>no commits the whole day?
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't seen any...
19:05<Ammler>hmm, no idea
19:05<Ammler>dih's nightly server has no newgrfs...
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>especially not FS#2287 ;)
19:07<Ammler>eddi that looks more like a region setting then language
19:10-!-Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: Zzz]
19:12<Ammler>renaming opengfx*.grf to trg*.grf works nice for 0.6.2
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19:19<Ammler>0.6.2 does also not desync
19:20<Ammler>so it is something with newgrfs, strange :-(
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, you are free to provide a de_CH localization ;)
19:22<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: I liked to, but you know how easy the translation support is...
19:22<Brianetta>Ammler: http://ppcis.org/standard/
19:22<Ammler>Brianetta: ?
19:22<Brianetta>Read
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19:23<Ammler>you mean, because I just joined a left again?
19:23<Brianetta>no
19:23<Brianetta>just read
19:24<Ammler>sorry, if I broke a rule, but your server is one of the few with newgrfs and I am wondering why I desync on coop ps.
19:24<Brianetta>READ
19:24<Brianetta>It's not hard
19:24<Ammler>:-)
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19:28<Brianetta>Have you read it yet?
19:28<Ammler>Brianetta: if you are still on the server, you can reset my company, sorry for any troubles I made :-)
19:28<Brianetta>Ammler: Stop talking to me about your visit to the server and read the damned page, please
19:28<Ammler>I thought, you will delete unpassworded companies automatically.
19:29-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:29<Ammler>Brianetta: I don't see it, sorry :-(
19:29<Brianetta>The bit in bold
19:30*Brianetta hits Ammler with a rolled up web browser
19:30<Ammler>:-)
19:30<Ammler>I read it now the 3. time :-P
19:30<Brianetta>So, now you know better what causes desyncs?
19:31<Ammler>ah, well,
19:31<Ammler>I didn't desync on your server
19:31<Brianetta>I know
19:31<Brianetta>You didn't do anything
19:31<Ammler>I desyncd on coop ps
19:31<Ammler>I founded a company and let it run for about 2 days...
19:32<Ammler>I need to test again, if the server is busy
19:32<Brianetta>It's a new game, about half an hour ago
19:32<Ammler>yeah, bad luck.
19:33<Brianetta>"Ammler: hmm, paused?"
19:33<Ammler>that's why I founded a company.
19:33<Ammler>you don't unpause for specators, it seems...
19:34<Brianetta>no
19:34<Brianetta>min_players works like that
19:34<Brianetta>and doing nothing on an empty server won't desync you
19:34<Brianetta>*can't* desync you
19:35<Ammler>Do you know another 0.6er server with GRFs?
19:36<Brianetta>I don't know any other servers, really
19:36<Ammler>I am really confused, why I desync on coop ps because of missing sample.cat
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19:39<Ammler>hmm, now I am on another NewGRF server without desync..
19:39<Brianetta>You need sample.cat
19:39<Brianetta>It's not an optional file
19:40<Ammler>but not the original
19:40<Ammler>you can replace it with a empty file
19:40<Brianetta>As long as the sample data is the same length
19:40<Brianetta>An empty one's fine for solo
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19:40<Ammler>I joined a mega server without troubles...
19:41<Ammler>the only server I know, yet, is coop
19:41<Ammler>which doesn't like me with empty sample.cat.
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19:46<Ammler>the grf replacment is quite useless if sample.cat can't be replaced too.
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19:51<Ammler>also no problem with cargodest branch
19:51<Ammler>that is just strange... (sorry for my monolog, btw.)
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20:39<Brianetta>Sacro: New section added to Standard Server site
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20:59<ln>did anyone think star wreck was any good?
21:01<TrueBrain>burp
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 11 00:00:29 2008