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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-09-12

---Logopened Fri Sep 12 00:00:01 2008
---Daychanged Fri Sep 12 2008
00:00<JdGordon>on my current game I have a screen (1680x1050) which is almost entirly tracks!
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00:32<Czeko>Hello, im trying to make a .grf mexican cities name list
00:33<Czeko>and i have the name list, now what haha
00:37<Czeko>too late i guess
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01:25<welshdragon>roboboy, stop bouncing!
01:26<NullAshton>He must be running on energizer batteries.
01:27<NullAshton>...huh, I know that name.
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02:39<roboboy>sorry I kept cycling
02:39<roboboy>my client was having graphical glitches cause I reconected after the computer went into hibernation and to fix it i either have to cycle or disconnect and connect
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03:19<planetmaker>morning OTTD fans and addicts :)
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03:28<FauxFaux>I can quit whenever I want
03:33<roboboy>how do I unshare orders a train has whilst keeping some of them?
03:33<roboboy>or most of them
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03:34<Brianetta>Let me know if you think that's worth putting in a new thread
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03:42<Ammler>roboboy: don't think, it is possible
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03:42<Brianetta>roboboy: You talk nonsense, lad
03:43<Brianetta>roboboy: You appear to have completely missed the bit where I said, "In order to preserve the gameplay expected by, and provided for, Transport Tycoon Deluxe players..."
03:44<Brianetta>Gameplay which is preserved even without patch settings, etc
03:45<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: have another vehicle with this order list nearby, delete the order list of the first by deleting the "end of shared orders" item, and then copy (not share) the order list of the second vehicle
03:47<Brianetta>I believe "that the game play change is too great and move too far away from TTD" in that case, too.
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03:49<Eddi|zuHause>how can gameplay move too far from TTD if TTD neither had groups nor shared orders?
03:50<Brianetta>I have no idea.. It's unwelcome criticism.
03:52<planetmaker>Interesting idea, Brianetta :)
03:55<Brianetta>ta (:
03:55<Brianetta>This is borne of trying to get Helen playing
03:55<Brianetta>Just a simple truck service
03:55<Brianetta>she didn't get it
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04:11<planetmaker>The problem is, that it is anything but a small change if I fathom it correctly. It requires modification of the vehicle GUI, group GUI and orders gui and a (nearly) complete re-write of the orders back end.
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04:13<Eddi|zuHause>there are separate features in there, 1) moving orders from vehicles to groups, 2) make groups nest, 3) allow custom liveries per group
04:14<planetmaker>fair enough
04:14<planetmaker>the first point is the most important. All others are secondary to it though
04:14<Noldo>it is quite odd that shared orders and groups are separate
04:15<Eddi|zuHause>2) can also be split into a GUI part (displaying, handling of nested groups) and a backend part (inheritance relationship for properties (orders, liveries, replacement rules, etc.)
04:15<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: shared orders are much older
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>one big problem will be converting old savegames
04:16<Noldo>is there a way to get a list of vehicles with the same shared orders?
04:16<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that is IMO not too big a problem. For each set of (shared) orders just create a group on its own.
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>in the order list, click on the icon on the far right
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, but there are already vehicle groups which not necessarily match the shared order grouping
04:18<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: Right. But they could be kept as generic groups w/o (valid) orders. But as savegame compatibility has to be broken anyway, it's no big deal to delete them w/o further hassle, too
04:18<Eddi|zuHause>you're not getting a clean tree representation of that which keeps the old properties (either you destroy old groups, or you unshare orders for vehicles that are not in the same group anymore)
04:19<planetmaker>or the latter, yes.
04:19<planetmaker>probably better.
04:20<planetmaker>In the first place one wouldn't have to bother about nesting anyway, just everything as a top-level group.
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>if you implement nested groups first, you could also create new groups for each shared order list, and then split up the old groups as children of these new groups
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>which might preserve most of the information from the old savegame
04:22<planetmaker>or vice versa. Myself, I'd group all vehicles in one town into one group - but vehicles might have different orders despite, e.g. for differen routes within the town.
04:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that is not a "problematic" case
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>example, you have three shared orders: 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>and have two groups A, B
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. B is used for upgrading
04:23<planetmaker>I know what you mean, no worries :)
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>and you have A = {1a, 1b, 2a}, B = {2b, 3a, 3b}
04:24<planetmaker>then you just tell anything in A to upgrade, including subgroups, yes
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>you have vehicles 2a and 2b which share orders, but are in different groups
04:24<planetmaker>well, B :P
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>when converting the savegame, you create new groups I II III
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04:26<Eddi|zuHause>and split the existing groups A and B, so you have I.A = {1a, 1b} (I.B can be omitted), II.A = {2a}, II.B = {2b}, III.B = {3a, 3b}
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>you can't use A and B as the parent groups, because that way you cannot share orders between 2a and 2b anymore
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>you could of course first check if such a case will occur
04:36<planetmaker>well, reasonably, you only create a sub-group, if there are more than one set of orders in a (currently) existing group.
04:37<Brianetta>[09:13] <Eddi|zuHause> there are separate features in there, 1) moving orders from vehicles to groups, 2) make groups nest, 3) allow custom liveries per group
04:37<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: Vehicles would still have orders
04:37<Brianetta>they'd be overridden by group membership
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>imho, it would make more sense if each vehicle was in an imaginary group of its own, then vehicles don't need orders anymore
04:39<Brianetta>Cleaner, but more work
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>and you have the overriding backwards
04:39<Brianetta>No, I don't
04:39<Brianetta>Groups inherit from parents unless they have their own
04:39<Brianetta>Vehicles only use their own if there's no group
04:40<Brianetta>Vehicles' own orders are of the very lowest priority
04:40<Brianetta>If you want one vehicle to go off and do something different, don't group it
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>that makes no sense, special orders always override the general orders
04:40<Brianetta>Then make a special sub-group
04:41<Brianetta>The ONLY reason a vehicle has its own orders is to preserve the sanity of people who want it just like TTD
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>exactly what i said, each vehicle has its special subgroup by default
04:41<Brianetta>so they can happily continue not to use groups
04:41<Brianetta>If it's implemented like that, sure
04:41<Noldo>Brianetta: but that's just qui frosting
04:41<Brianetta>but such a group should be visible
04:41<Brianetta>so that players can remove the vehicle to another group (:
04:41<Brianetta>Noldo: qui what?
04:42<Noldo>internally it makes sence to have orders attached to groups and vehicle always be alone in a leaf group
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>nothing changes for people that use neither groups nor shared orders
04:42<Brianetta>Eddi: Your idea of making every vehicle belong to its own group is a sound one.
04:42<Brianetta>I just didn't want to make it sound *too* radical
04:43<Brianetta>The OpenTTD devs can be very conservative
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04:43<Noldo>Brianetta: :)
04:43<Brianetta>I'm off to work; back soon, I hope
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>no, only when you use the "r" word ;)
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04:43<@peter1138>What I don't get with that thread...
04:43<planetmaker>hey peter1138 :)
04:44<@peter1138>Is why people confused Dalestan's implementation "for TTDPatch" with what I've done for OpenTTD...
04:44<@peter1138>I state my intentions, Dalestan states his intentions... for TTDPatch.
04:45<planetmaker>fair enough. Two things, two opinions, no problem, on should think?
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04:46<@peter1138>Not even two opinions. TTDPatch doesn't *have* vehicle groups...
04:46<planetmaker>:P I don't care what TTDP has. I don't play it :)
04:47<@peter1138>So why did you care about what DaleStan wrote?
04:47<planetmaker>He sometimes has reasonable ideas... what exactly are you referring to right now *a bit confused*
04:49<planetmaker>:) Oh, well... yeah. As people are laying out concepts, it's worth debating them, isn't it?
04:50<planetmaker>But you're right. DaleStan is with his TTDP-intentions a bit off topic there :) - and I fell for it.
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04:51<planetmaker>I read his comment more in a way like "...a solution I would consider..."
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04:52<@peter1138>Yes... but the "for TTDPatch" bit is important ;)
04:52<@peter1138>Hmm, apparently I'm being taken out to check out some new premises.
04:53<planetmaker>:) yeah, probably you're right :)
04:54<@peter1138>Hmm, 15GB copied.
04:54<planetmaker>I'm thinking of the structure from the end-user GUI point of view without know too much about the current implementation in OTTD
04:55<@peter1138>Only another 100GB to go :o
04:55<planetmaker>:) That are usual amounts of data for me...
04:55<planetmaker>1 GB equal 20 seconds :)
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>20 seconds is an awfully long time...
04:56<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: depends. Yes and no :)
04:57<planetmaker>I've also data where I get that easily in 5 seconds where it still may seem long
04:57<planetmaker>But maintaining this data aquisition rate over 3 hours is the real challange.
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>we urgently need GUIs that scale to translation length
04:57<planetmaker>(which money can solve :P )
04:58<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: lots and lots of work, little time
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>on a related note: why is the dropdown list in the vehicle list that small? there is a lot of space space left
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>align the start all/stop all buttons to the right, and let the dropdown list scale wit window size
05:03<nckomodo>the TT forums could use a visual upgrade
05:04<nckomodo>and by that I mean something that doesnt make it look like a relic from the early 90s
05:04<@Rubidium>then use the other style
05:05<planetmaker>the only thing I wish for is to filter in the new messages list all posts concerning OTTD only (and maybe the TTDP graphics section) :)
05:06<nckomodo>I wasnt saying it was bothering me, I was saying the default style just makes the place seem like it probably hasnt been used very much in the past few years
05:06<planetmaker>nckomodo: luckily a forum shows the frequency of usage quite easily
05:08<@peter1138>planetmaker, I'm copying this over a 2mbit/s leased line...
05:08<planetmaker>uh... that's not making it too much fun :P
05:08<@Rubidium>then 1GB per 20 seconds is quite fast
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05:09<@peter1138>That would be astounding.
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>or quite long seconds :p
05:10<planetmaker>:) Megapixel camera with full camera link interface :P. Continuous data rate sustainable with a single PC is something like 300GB / 30 minutes.
05:10<@Rubidium>40 Mbit/20 seconds => 5 MB/20 seconds => compression of 1 in 200
05:10<planetmaker>but the frame grabber has a few GB buffer, so you can be faster short term.
05:12<planetmaker>the bottle neck is the HD speed.
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05:36<sulai>hi there =)
05:42<sulai>I never dared to ask, but i think this patch is quite usefull, so I do:
05:42<sulai>Is there any chance to geht "quick goto" into the trunk?
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06:27<Brianetta>I am back.
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06:32<Brianetta>Pikka (:
06:40<planetmaker>[11:42] <sulai> Is there any chance to geht "quick goto" into the trunk? <-- I dare say I like it, too.
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06:41<planetmaker>But otoh I don't think it should go this way into trunk. I would rather have some bigger change which eases giving more complex orders as well like conditional and / or time tables.
06:41<planetmaker>But as there's not good proposal how to do that (I've no good idea either)...
06:42<CommanderZ>you would have to completely redo the order gui
06:43<sulai>Hm, this patch is rather simple minded. Just saving a couple of clicks while creating the orders ;)
06:44<CommanderZ>I tried and found it slightly confusing. Nothing I couldnt ge used to though.
06:45<sulai>I miss it very much when playing RC or latest nightly ;)
06:46<sulai>when you get used to it, it makes creating orders a bit of a fun
06:47<sulai>and for those who don't like it: there is a patch settings entry in the patch window ;)
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06:47<@Rubidium>oh... luckily others see that the order GUI needs improvements and that a hackish quick goto isn't the solution
06:48<planetmaker>Rubidium: we _can_ listen to reason :)
06:49<@Rubidium>just that "we" doesn't include all users
06:49<planetmaker>sure enough. But reason depends upon the information background one has.
06:50<Brianetta>Rubidium: Did "others" include me? (:
06:50<planetmaker>Brianetta: I guess the set which defines "others" depends upon the feature request subject to debate :P
06:50<planetmaker>Could also include me ;)
06:50<@Rubidium>can't remember you pushing quick goto, so I reckon you might are in that group
06:51<Brianetta>Is quick goto the one where you don't have to keep pressing goto?
06:51<sulai>I got this idea of the already active goto button from locomotion, since it made creatinng orders less clicking. Even in a completely reworked orders window, maybe it's a good idea to have the go to button already active
06:51<planetmaker>yes, for empty orders.
06:51<Brianetta>because no matter the change in GUI, I think that's a neat idea
06:52<Brianetta>It's like building stations (tool cursor goes away when clicked) and rails (doesn't)
06:52<Brianetta>Almost independent of the actual orders method
06:52<sulai>Brianetta right
06:53<sulai>when building adjacent bus stations it's much clicking too...
06:54<CommanderZ>thre is patch for it too
06:54<planetmaker>That's a completely different thing though. That's persistance of built tools - which indeed is far from uniform.
06:55<sulai>I think there are many places in the game where the player is forced to do unnecessary clicking... when building plants: why not activate "random trees" by default... saves 1 more click
06:55<TrueBrain>sjoep sjoep
06:57<Brianetta>I don't plant trees
06:57<Brianetta>There are too many of them by 2000 anyway
06:57<Brianetta>totally unrealistic
06:57<sulai>anyway, saving unnecesary clicking in the game results in better "game flow", or what ever you'd like to call it ;)
06:58<sulai>Brianetta: I don't plant trees <--- do you only bribe towns? sometimes planting trees is enough ;)
06:58<Brianetta>I either bribe towns, or wait
06:59<Brianetta>Bribes are only necessary when I've invested heavily and can't build a station
06:59<sulai>I wait or bribe too, but only if trees don't help anymore ;)
06:59<Brianetta>Of course, having invested heavily, I'm usually "appalling"
06:59<Brianetta>Planting trees just seems so arbitrary
06:59<Brianetta>and in the late game, when you'd think trees should be in short supply, there's barely a tile without one.
07:00<sulai>hm I think planting trees is OK there
07:00<sulai>the only things which deletes trees in a bigger manner are the players or farms
07:01<Brianetta>Trees should grow old and die
07:01<Brianetta>or die near roads
07:01<Brianetta>or something
07:01<Ammler>or use the smallest grf ever: ;-)
07:02<Brianetta>lumber mills in tropical do the work (:
07:02<planetmaker>Brianetta: guess what that grf does... in temperate
07:02<Brianetta>nice (:
07:03<Brianetta>Is it necessary to have the newgrf installed once it's on the map?
07:03<Brianetta>Could they be placed in a scenario, for example?
07:03<planetmaker>you'll still need the grf then.
07:03<Ammler>Brianetta: good question
07:03<Pikka>Brianetta: they should grow slower and new trees should self-plant less often :P
07:03<Brianetta>planetmaker: Not necessarily
07:03<planetmaker>Or I'd be surprised... - but I'm ready to learn :)
07:03<Brianetta>Pikka: And, occasionally, die
07:03<Brianetta>planetmaker: The game has all the info about them already
07:04<Ammler>it should cut down the wood not in radius
07:04<Brianetta>The only limitation to be overcome is the ability to place them in normal
07:04<Ammler>it should cut them randomly in th earea
07:04<Brianetta>Ammler: The chainsaw team have to walk, you know
07:04<Ammler>but I fear that would need a patch
07:04<Brianetta>It's very much how rainforests get clear cut
07:05<Ammler>explains, why the lumber mill is available only there per default.
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07:13<sulai>hi dih
07:14<sulai>back to quick goto... Maybe a little hacky it's my first patch though. Maybe one of the more experienced developers can have a look at the diff?
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07:20<dih>sulai: idealy you should not come into the situation where you need to bribe or plant trees :-)
07:23<sulai>so, create your station first ;)
07:24*eekee thinks airports require bribery too often :)
07:24<eekee>That's probably realistic though :D
07:24<dih>in RL or the game? :-P
07:25<CommanderZ>Sulai: (about the patch )It is so simple that there is not much to check. Just one thing - do you really need go through the whole order list? It must be possible to get the size of the array (I don't know anything aboy how are orders stored though). And if you really need to count the items manually, the you should go with uint :)
07:27<Ammler>Brianetta: can't be used without GRF
07:27<Ammler>as the LumberMill doesn't cut the trees...
07:29<sulai>CommanderZ: thank you for checking. I think it's necessary to go through all the items in the orders list, because not only the number of items is counted, but the number of STATION entries. If a orders list contains less than 2 STATION entries (but maybe 5 waypoints and a goto depot), the goto button will be active on window popup.
07:30<sulai>this is only done when a orders window is opened by the player, so I think it's no speed issue
07:31<eekee>um, that would annoy me when I'm making a new train and I want it to start moving before I much about finding the other station
07:31*dih does not want to really comment on that, he does not play anyway :-P
07:31<CommanderZ>Are you sure the condition "If the list is empty, then goto" wouldn't do the job? This can be confusing.
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07:33<Brianetta>Ammler: Ah. Never mind. (:
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07:33<Brianetta>Ammler: Can you get the tree-cutting action without the mill?
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07:33<eekee>I think people would get used to it... hmm would it annoy me? The goto would cancel if I clicked on an order, wouldn't it?
07:34<Ammler>Brianetta: I thought about that
07:34<Ammler>applying it to the Forest
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07:34<Ammler>should be possible...
07:35<dih>eekee: i would find it annoying, and probably never enable it :-P
07:35<eekee>ah :)
07:35<sulai>commanderZ: I'm not sure... can you think of order lists which are complete with less than 2 station entries?
07:36<dih>no - but i can think of situations where i have the order window open and dont want to give an order just because i have less than 2 station sin that order
07:36<dih>perhaps i want to scroll the map, or check what is going on at other stations
07:36<sulai>goto should be active in the case the shedule is not complete (this includes, if its empty)
07:37<dih>no - you want goto to be active
07:37<CommanderZ>I don't like software which is trying to outsmart me :)
07:37<eekee>no, it should be active only when the player wants it active
07:37<dih>what you want and what should be the case are 2 different things (if not 3 :-D)
07:37<sulai>dih: perhaps i want to scroll the map, or check what is going on at other stations <- then you do what you did if you had the dynamite tool active: click the button again or just press ESC
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07:37<dih>no - i hardly ever use the dynamite tool
07:37<eekee>Software that "tries to be clever" (to use a good old British workmans' phrase) is horrid
07:38<dih>we have an AI for that
07:38<dih>and it fails at trying to be clever :-D
07:38<eekee>it does!
07:38<eekee>Actually the phrase "trying to be clever" always implies failure :D
07:39<dih>what if one manages in the end?
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07:39*dih tried to be clever :-D
07:39*dih now thinks of clever & smart
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07:41<Brianetta>I think the goto button should just stay pressed until un-pressed
07:41<Brianetta>simple, predictable
07:41<sulai>Brianetta: Yes, I think this is an option
07:41<Brianetta>just like building track or signals
07:41<planetmaker>probably better, yeah
07:42<Brianetta>un-press it by clicking it, pressing Escape. or closing the orders window
07:42<dih>but the player presses it
07:42<dih>not like an 'already pressed'
07:42<Brianetta>Already pressed isn't intuitive after learning the rest of the game
07:42<sulai>dih: maybe this could be an patch option, too
07:42<Brianetta>except, perhaps, for depots and stations...
07:43<Brianetta>but those are launched form a toolbar
07:43<dih>sulai: ctrl+click = styas klicked
07:43<TrueBrain>dih: don't give broken links :(
07:44<eekee>not broken here
07:44<dih>TrueBrain: it's not broken
07:44<Brianetta>It's a cartoon cover
07:44<TrueBrain>it is here, so shut up :p
07:44<dih>TrueBrain: dont blame me if you cannot copy and paste :-D
07:44<TrueBrain>connecting to ......
07:44<dih>on no - you have a 'clever' irc client and just clicked
07:45<dih>not buck bucH
07:45<eekee>what a cover
07:45<TrueBrain>now that was a typo typing it back ;)
07:45<Brianetta>I remember when comics always had that amount of background detail
07:45<eekee>I just clicked...
07:45<Brianetta>Little amusing things to look for after you'd read the story
07:46<eekee>yeah that was good
07:47<dih>i need to start buying those again :-)
07:47<eekee>I don't, I couldn't afford my internet if I did
07:48*eekee flees
07:49<dih>well - it's similar here
07:49<dih>but 5 euros a month should be fine :-D
07:49<eekee>ah :)
07:49<dih>no wait - still need to buy toothpaste this month, so perhaps i'll start next month
07:49<eekee>I'm adding to my internet expense actually. getting a virtual server
07:49<dih>i do colocation
07:50<dih>virtual servers are just not powerful enough
07:50<dih>(appart from the deal Ammler has)
07:51<eekee>How much for colocation? & what country?
07:51<eekee>oh & what bandwith?
07:51<Ammler>well, colocation is very expensive and you will have very fast a outdated server.
07:51<Ammler>do dedicated server are the better choice imo.
07:51<eekee>@ dih
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07:52<dih>Ammler: colo is nowhere as expensive as dedicated server
07:52<eekee>I'm looking at dedicated for < £60 for a year
07:52<dih>and it's your hardware, if you dont upgrade when you want, it's your own fault
07:53<dih>eekee: what isp
07:53<dih>including bandwidth?
07:53<Ammler>you need to buy/setup the hardware, doesn't that cost?
07:53<dih>60 quid a year is nothing, i cannot imagin any sane isp doing that with decent hardware
07:53<dih>Ammler: i colocate old hardware :-)
07:53*Forked pays nothing for his ADSL2+ and VDSL2 lines :)
07:54<Forked>yes, one of each
07:54<Ammler>nighboorhood (or how is that spelled)
07:54<Forked>16/1 Mbit adsl2+ and 24/5,5Mbit vdsl2
07:54<eekee>actually honestly that £60 would get me a VM with nearly the same power as the spare computer I'd send out for co-lo anyway. And that would leave me without a spare in case my main comp died
07:54<Forked>thats all the old crappy cables can handle :\
07:55<eekee>although ram & disk space would be higher if I co-lo...
07:55<eekee>dih: ttyl, I need to head out now
07:55<dih>eekee: link?
07:56<eekee>oh to the vm service I was looking at?
07:57<Ammler>dih: how much would a vserver cost with the same power as your colo server?
07:57<planetmaker>Ammler Neighbo(u)rhood
07:58<dih>Ammler: i have a AMD athlon 2000+ with 1GB month, currently with unmetered bandwidth
07:58<dih>and another light box serving webpages and repositories
07:58<Ammler>wow, that is like mine vps
07:58<dih>also unmetered bw
07:59<Forked>oh that kind of dedicated, sorry
07:59<dih>Ammler: your vps is not available anymore at the price you have it
07:59<Ammler>it would cost 15€ now
07:59<dih>i know - i checked
07:59<dih>and it's more than 15
07:59<Ammler>well, I can drop the MWST
07:59<dih>i cannot ;-)
08:00<Ammler>thanks to our lovely Blochler
08:00<Ammler>who declined the EU
08:00<Ammler>(that was irony)
08:01<Ammler>but for internet buisness it is fine
08:04<planetmaker>Ammler: I figured :)
08:10<Ammler>hmm, I might not think of something, but wouldn't it be possible to store the used palette in the nfo?
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08:19<sulai>CommanderZ Brianetta eekee dih planetmaker: I've updated quick goto. see forum post:
08:19<sulai>what do you think about u3's suggestion (in the forum): What about getting service order with ctrl+click a depot?
08:20<CommanderZ>I would stick with activating the auto goto only when the list is empty
08:21<Brianetta>I wouldn't auto-activate it
08:21<sulai>I never used a service order actually... I never used that. Whats the difference between "goto depot" and "goto depot for servicing"?
08:21<Brianetta>sulai: Service at is conditional
08:21<Brianetta>It doesn't bother if it doens't need a service
08:22<sulai>Brianetta: thats part of the trick... auto-activating saves time
08:22<sulai>ah, interesting to know :)
08:22<Brianetta>Indeed. You know what I'm doing most of the time in my orders windows?
08:22<Brianetta>Toggling full load.
08:22<Brianetta>Or telling trains to skip.
08:23<sulai>Brianetta: Or telling trains to skip. <- thats why the goto button shouldn't be active when the orders list seems to be finished
08:23<Brianetta>Having the goto cursor stay active would reduce clicks when building orders.
08:23<sulai>or wait I'll give it a try...
08:24<planetmaker>sulai: why would I want to behave giving service orders differently than giving orders to a station?
08:24<Brianetta>Having it become active by itself is just annoying (if it happens always) or adding needless complexity (if you run tests).
08:25<sulai>planetmaker: because you can't full load in a depot? ;)
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08:27<Ammler>autoadd those orders:
08:27<planetmaker>so what...? It seems to me inconsitant to handle "goto depot" differently gui-wise than "goto MoonbaseAlpha East"
08:27<Ammler> 1) Jump to order 4 if requires service is false
08:27<Ammler> 2) Go To X (Unload and no loading)
08:27<Ammler> 3) Go to nearest train depot
08:27<Ammler> 4) Go To X
08:28<sulai>Brianetta: Having it become active by itself is just annoying (if it happens always) or adding needless complexity (if you run tests). <- Maybe this is a solution: in the patch settings one can cycle through: "no quick goto", "quick goto, but not active at window popup", "only active at popup if empty", "active if less than 2 stations", "allways active" ?
08:28<sulai>planetmaker: maybe we put depot servicing back for now =)
08:29<sulai>Ammler: autoadd?
08:30<Ammler>you can't use "goto depot for service" for loaded trains
08:30<Ammler>you need to unload first, then service, then load.
08:30<sulai>oh, didn't know that
08:31<Ammler>did you ever enter a service depot on a train in real?
08:31<sulai>hehe this is a point
08:32<sulai>i would feel rather misplaced ^^
08:33<Ammler>ottd does allow enter a depot full, but I do not like that behavior much.
08:33<@peter1138>18GB ...
08:34<planetmaker>:) Go, go, peter1138 - your data will make it :)
08:36<Brianetta>sulai: Needless complexity....
08:37<sulai>Brianetta: patch settings are complex... because everyone wants the game a little different ;)
08:37<sulai>but this way everybody can choose what he likes best
08:37<planetmaker>sulai: the more patch settings, the less likely is trunk inclusion :)
08:38<planetmaker>KISS principle is quite important for patches...
08:38<sulai>Brianetta: I personally like the goto button to be active if there are less than 2 station entries. you don't like it to be auto-active, but maybe you'd like it to stay active if you just clicked it.
08:39<sulai>planetmaker: what is the KISS principle?
08:39<planetmaker>Keep It Simple Stupid :)
08:39<dih>my ass :-D
08:39<sulai>planetmaker: it's still one patch setting, but one you can cycle through
08:39*Brianetta shrugs
08:39<Brianetta>I said what I'd find useful.
08:40<sulai>hm so what about that first step: no auto active goto button at all, but just the patch setting which allows the goto button to stay active, if you click it
08:40<planetmaker>Brianetta's version is how you'd expect things to work: press a button for a feature, press it again to deactivate it. E.g. make goto button selected a persistant thing.
08:40<Brianetta>That's what I said I'd find useful. Making it so complex isn't somethin *I* have against it, it's a reason why the patch might not make it.
08:41<sulai>make goto button selected a persistant thing. <- OK i think this is a deal ;)
08:41<planetmaker>just like autorail is persistant: active until pressed again.
08:42<CommanderZ>I agree, good ponit
08:42*Brianetta nods
08:44<dih>yes - yet that button is not pressed by default
08:44<planetmaker>dih: that was what I argued for... :P
08:44<dih>all buttons presed at the same time: enabled
08:45<dih>really quit? [yes] <- enabled
08:48<sulai>ok, strg+station still results in a full_load_any
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08:54<sulai>OK, quick goto as simple as it can get: active only when you click it, strg+station makes a full load any:
08:55<ln>English Only.
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08:56<sulai>sorry... ctrl+station ;)
08:58<Tim>hm, how about changing that second one to "go to button is only auto-active, when there are less than 2 orders in the list? (that being real stations)
09:00<sulai>tim: this is how it was in the original quick goto. seems too complicated to make it into the trunk.
09:01<Tim>Hm, that's sad, as it'd be very useful.
09:02<sulai>Tim: I like the "auto active if less than 2 stations" very much, too. But better we get a persistent goto button than nothing... right ;)
09:02<planetmaker>sulai: is the last version of the old patch broken with current trunk?
09:02<sulai>no it's also valid
09:03<planetmaker>Then no problem :)
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09:04<sulai>Tim: a solution could be to make a patch settings entry where the user can decide the behavior of quick goto
09:05<sulai>...cycle through different settings like "no goto" "goto, but not auto active" "goto and auto active"... or the like
09:05<sulai>but maybe this is a little too much for the first step
09:05<Tim>Well yes, but i think noone would really speak out against the active-when-less-than-2-orders-thing, what else do you want to do in orders if not assign some? :)
09:05<sulai>skip orders
09:06<sulai>(which works with active goto button too)
09:10<sulai>Tim: except assigning orders I use to skip orders, or just to check orders. That's what I do when the orders are actually complete, so no auto active goto button is needed
09:11<sulai>but the bad thing: the goto button is not very predictive any more... some times it's active, sometimes not. It's harder for beginners (maybe)
09:12<Brianetta>Essentially, two lines changed. Cool.
09:12<planetmaker>doesn't beat my longest patch ever :)
09:13<Brianetta>Just bump up your context settings, and even a one-line patch can be twice the size of the source code.
09:14<planetmaker>:) I know.
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09:14<planetmaker> <-- like that :P
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09:15<Noldo>why B?
09:15<sulai>Brianetta: Essentially, two lines changed. Cool. <- more line needed for the patch settings dialog than for the actual patch ;)
09:16<Ammler>Noldo: Bridge, I assume
09:16*yorick tries to notify people of FS#2241
09:16-!-lobster_MB [] has quit []
09:17<dih>yorick: it's a bug tracking system
09:17<dih>(of an active project)
09:17<dih>so it is pretty likely that someone will look at it without you highlighting your own stuff
09:17<yorick>and I would like to see that specific fix by kakapoor committed
09:18<dih>you know what they say about watching stuff too closely? :-P
09:18<yorick>you know what they say about deadlocked airports? :P
09:21-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
09:22<Pikka>they say "whoops", yorick
09:23<yorick>yes, and they can't "unwhoops" themselves :(
09:25<@Belugas>zello guys
09:25<Pikka>bonjour Belugas
09:25<TrueBrain>Belugas: your keyboard is wrong
09:25<TrueBrain>it keeps on typing a z instead of a h
09:26<@Belugas>naaaaz... just tzat i am not totally tzere rigzt now
09:26<@Belugas>or zere even
09:27<dih>wow - you have a pretty strong german accent
09:27<@Belugas>bien le bonjour a vous aussi, Messire Pikka
09:27*Belugas is going to buy the new Metallica CD today :D
09:27<@Belugas>rejoyce time!
09:30<planetmaker>[15:15] <Noldo> why B? <-- it was the water bridge which was missing that key :)
09:31<Noldo>Belugas: I've heard the same line earlier today
09:31<dih>the water ridge?
09:32-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:32<@Belugas>Noldo ?
09:32<dih>Noldo: you are a question!
09:33<Noldo>Belugas: rest of the family went music shopping today, main reason being Metallica
09:34<@Belugas>ho ... oK :)
09:34<@Belugas>i'm a fan of the band since the release of Ride The Lightning
09:34<@peter1138>Hmm, that's a lot of rain.
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09:47<sulai>peter1138 what are you doing?
09:47<@peter1138>I'm counting out time.
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09:50<@Belugas>sulai, he's got the whole thing down by numbers
09:50<@Belugas>hope it goes like he planned it
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10:03<Mortal>whoops, wrong channel
10:05-!-lobster_MB [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
10:11<dih>Mortal, say !wrongchannel
10:11<Mortal>oh right, that autokick?
10:12<dih>where is glx when you actually need him?
10:12-!-Mortal [] has left #openttd [try in #whatever other channel]
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10:12<Mortal>hey guys I'm back
10:12<dih>thank you Belugas
10:12<Mortal>what was that other channel called again?
10:13<@Belugas>haven't done a thing
10:13<dih>the only other one i could think if would be TrueBrain
10:13<dih>oh - no forget it
10:13*dih hides
10:13<@Belugas>no, me, it would have been like that
10:13-!-dih was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [like that]
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10:13<dih>thanks :-)
10:14<@Belugas>see, a bit different ;)
10:14<dih>anything that will make you smile :-)
10:16<@peter1138>Urgh, raining :o
10:17<@Belugas>It's Raining Again, Alleluia!
10:19-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
10:22<Ammler>well, then it is raining everywhere...
10:24<@Belugas>not zere, not let at yeast
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10:24<SmatZ>I like when it's raining
10:25<SmatZ>I like running in rain
10:25<@Belugas>i like songs about rain
10:25<@Belugas>i like swimming while it's raining
10:26<@Belugas>i like seeing and hearing the rain underwater
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10:33<dih>SmatZ: running or dancing :-P
10:35<SmatZ>dancing and singing in the rain...
10:35<SmatZ>Belugas: nice :)
10:35<TrueBrain>rather dancing and singing on the danc efloor
10:36*Brianetta is going to be near a dance floor, if not actually dancing, tonight
10:43<@Belugas>soon, i'll be on a concert hall, but i'd rather be on stage with that band
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10:45<Sacro>Belugas: i suppose at least when you're swimming it keeps you out the rai
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10:46<@Belugas>plus, with the wetsuit, it's like...who cares :D
10:46<TrueBrain>hmm, I am going to do some rockclimbing again tonight
10:46<TrueBrain>I love doing that :) But I miss my dancing lessons ...
10:47<TrueBrain>4 more weeks without :(
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10:47<yorick>dancing :') rockclimbing *O*
10:48<yorick>lets say it rocks
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10:49<TrueBrain>Sacro: please don't do that again :(
10:49<Sacro>TrueBrain: do what?
10:50<TrueBrain>leave like that!
10:50<TrueBrain>not saying goodbye
10:50<TrueBrain>just .... closing your connection
10:50<TrueBrain>I was all crying and stuff
10:50<yorick>don't even leave
10:50<TrueBrain>but pfew, you are back :) :) :)
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10:55*Belugas gets hooked on Helicon 1
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11:10<Sacro>Anyone here built pulseaudio?
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11:12<Czeko>Hi, im trying to mage a mexican cities .grf, can anyone help me? :-)
11:12<Sacro>mage eh
11:12<Sacro>sounds like witchcraft to me
11:12<Czeko>haha make
11:12<Czeko>yeah, i want to summon mexican cities
11:14<Czeko>any suggestions? or should i just hack some other city list into a mexican one?
11:14<Ammler>Czeko: do you have a list ready?
11:14<qkr>can anyone help me: I need to mix 4 tracks to 2, but so that outer tracks have priority over inner tracks? I read about priorities and load balancers but can't understand
11:15<Czeko>hi Ammler, yeah i have 975 names now
11:15<Ammler>wow :-)
11:15<Czeko>yeah, i learnt much geography yesterday haha
11:16<Ammler>Czeko: now you should prepare the list like
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11:17<Ammler>the first value is the propability
11:17<Ammler>the higer, the more it will apear on the map
11:17<Czeko>from 01 to ?
11:18<Ammler>well, not sure
11:18<Czeko>and the second value?
11:19<Ammler>yes, not FF
11:19<Ammler>7. bit is for something else
11:19<Ammler>did you read ?
11:20<Czeko>nope, but ill read it now
11:20<Ammler>you need to prefix all strings with higher ascii chars with C3 9E
11:21<Ammler>I am sure, you will need that for mexican :-)
11:21<Ammler>if you don't like to bother, you could add it for every string...
11:21<Czeko>yeah, most of them have accents
11:22<Czeko>and its spanish haha
11:22<Czeko>thanks, ill give it a read now :-)
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11:27<Ammler>Czeko: if you need example, but I am not a pro...
11:30<Czeko>you are a pro from my perspective
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11:34<Czeko>i need to make that folder or only the .nfo file?
11:35<Czeko>guess ill add the values to the list first
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11:49<Forked>RIP 612 people :(
11:53<@Belugas>Metallica Pick-up time!
12:00<Ammler>Czeko: I made a small bash script to help me for generating the grf
12:00<Ammler>grfcodec alone would need just the nfo
12:01<Ammler>afaik you can only have 255 names per group
12:01<Ammler>so you need to split the list...
12:06<Czeko>ok, so ill add the values and then split it in 4 .txt
12:07<Ammler>and think about how you can edit/add/delete names later...
12:16*Belugas puts on the new CD
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12:21<@Belugas>feels like machine gun assault
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12:39<Eddi|zuHause><sulai> I got this idea of the already active goto button from locomotion <- i'm not sure right now, but it could have been like this in TT original also
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12:55<@Belugas>lert's do a little commit for Sir Pikka
12:57<Ammler>Hmm, I should public the source for the lumber mill before I get too much credits. ;-)
12:57<@peter1138>"public the source!"
12:57<Ammler>69Byte and most of them is Action8
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13:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r14294 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp: -Feature[newGRF]: Add Variational Action 2 Variable 0x47 for houses, Coordinates of the house tile
13:03<@Belugas>ho damned
13:03<@peter1138>Nice ;)
13:04*peter1138 np: Do Make Say Think - Fredericia
13:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r14295 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp:
13:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix(r14294): If the house is not built yet, still give me proper coordinates, pretty please!
13:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Plus, two(2) rogue tabs found their way in.
13:06<hylje>were they planning a heist?
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13:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14296 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: there is no case where an invalid waypoint index should be passed to be drawn as a string.
13:12<Ammler>Rubidium, related to the newgrf toggle, I like to quote myslef: [14:10] <Ammler> hmm, I might not think of something, but wouldn't it be possible to store the used palette for grf in the nfo?
13:13<Ammler>it would at least make newer grfs "safer"
13:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14297 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix: one could be trying to get the station name of a station that is outside of the pool.
13:14<@Rubidium>Ammler: but how? And how to make sure you aren't storing data of long lost newgrfs?
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13:15<Ammler>Rubidium: nfo of the grf
13:16<@Rubidium>hmm, guess I should read
13:16<Ammler>well, you should still be able to toggle it, if the coder might have made a misstake...
13:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14298 /trunk/src/ (38 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#2214]: "{CARGO} from unknown destination".
13:16<@Belugas>like decompile it live, add the info and recompile it?
13:16<@Belugas>all those names.. reminds me of the company's name fix...
13:17<Ammler>well, it needs to be stored in the part you read anyway for the GRFList
13:19<@Rubidium>yes, we could add that as an option to action 0x08. Though I don't how TTDP should handle that info.
13:21<Ammler>well, grfcodec should be able to handle it too, as it should be overruled with it...
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13:25*Ammler is wondering, why that isn't already somewhere stored... (might be a reason?)
13:26<frosch123>Ammler: there is the dos/windows action7 variable and a actionb built-in messages for that, but hardly a grf uses that
13:27-!-Yeggstry is now known as Yeggs-work
13:27<Ammler>that is for checking, which palette ottd uses
13:27<Ammler>but I am speaking about a bit which stores the palette of the grf itslef
13:27<@Rubidium>yeah, but that'd be pointless from now on as it can convert on-the-fly
13:28<@Rubidium>as far as I understand newgrfs there isn't any
13:28<Ammler>indeed, but the other direction would be helpful...
13:32*Belugas would like to know how helpfull it would be. an example?
13:33<@Rubidium>so stupid users will automatically get the correct palette conversion, i.e. no users with wrong palettes (purple stations)
13:34<Ammler>Belugas: yeah, mostly another stupidy/lazy protection...
13:35<frosch123>you could also rename "toggle palette" to "click here if you see a lot of pink" :p
13:35<@Rubidium>that's the tooltip
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13:36<@Belugas>that is if they know how to read :P
13:36<frosch123>cool, though the tip does not really fit into the popup
13:37<Czeko>im off, ill come back when ive added the values to the mexican cities :)
13:37<@Belugas>byt Czeko
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13:38<@Belugas>shit... found a bug on First Class fcOutLookItems
13:39-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
13:39<@Belugas>they do not take into account the enbabled nor the visible properties of Actions
13:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14299 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix: disable 'toggle palette' when no NewGRF has been selected.
13:42<yorick>hm, trying to fix FS#2268 is harder than I thought it would be
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r14300 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-09-12 17:41:59
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 13 fixed by tucalipe (13)
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 12 fixed by arnaullv (12)
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: danish - 9 fixed, 7 changed by ThomasA (16)
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changed by habell (1)
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 5 fixed by kristjans (5)
13:44<welshdragon>i have a bug
13:44<yorick>you do?
13:44<@Rubidium>"I" have about 30 bugs...
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>i have a hornet
13:45<welshdragon>the desyncs that are happening on the 0.6.2 servers can also be caused by scrolling very very fast
13:45<yorick>can they?
13:45<@Rubidium>and how did you prove it is caused by scrolling and not by something else?
13:46<welshdragon>as the known bug with desyncs didn't happen
13:46<welshdragon>there were no jams
13:46<yorick>how did you prove it wasn't with drawing something?
13:47<welshdragon>look, connect to brianetta's standard, i'l join, and scroll around fast, if it desyncs i've proved my point, if it doesn'tthen i'll shut up :P
13:48<@peter1138>Conclusive bug reporting.
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13:54<@peter1138>I'd say it's one of the millions of traffic jams, personally.
14:01<yorick>since when do traffic jams cause desyncs?
14:08<@Belugas>you mean you do not know, yorick?
14:08<@Belugas>they always did, back to 0.3.4
14:08<yorick>No, I do not
14:08<qkr>how do I make it so that my stations get goods from further away?
14:08<FauxFaux>Make them bigger.
14:08<yorick>Make connections from further away.
14:09<qkr>that is this setting "max station spread" in patches?
14:12<Zuu>max station spread decides how big the station can become.
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>qkr: you can build station tiles closer to the industry, and then remove the middle parts
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>"station spread" of 4 means you can only build 4x4 stations
14:17<@Belugas>i guess my bluff did not worked :P
14:20<@peter1138># I hate you
14:20<@peter1138># Talking to myself
14:21<yorick>don't hate yourself :)
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14:24<qkr>I can't build stations close enough to town to get goods accepted
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>you can build bus stations adjacent to your train station
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14:28<Indoril>Is there a way for a server admin to get the password for individual companies?
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>not anymore
14:28<Indoril>or change their password to blank
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>that should be possible
14:29<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: yes it is
14:29<Sacro>i assume it is stored in ram
14:29<Sacro>it is an OSS game
14:29<Sacro>so you can dump it yoruself
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: no, only hashes are stored, not plaintext passwords
14:31<Brianetta>Desync score table, Brianetta's Standard, current game:
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>Indoril: iirc there are "autoclean protected" and "autoclean unprotected" settings, where the first one removes a password after a certain time, and the second one removes the company completely
14:31<Brianetta>Kejhic: 3
14:31<Brianetta>Vemarkis: 14
14:31<Brianetta>welshdragon: 22
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>but Brianetta is probably better with that kind of problem ;)
14:32<Brianetta>Indoril: Which version are you using?
14:32<Brianetta>You can't get the passwords
14:32<Brianetta>Even if you examine the RAM, they're hashed
14:33<Brianetta>There are two ways to remove passwords
14:33<Brianetta>One of these is to reload the game. This loses all the passwords.
14:33<Indoril>well I dont really want them, but I've got a couple of users who can't remember their passwords after a nights sleep
14:33<Brianetta>The other is to set autoclean on, and wait for a while.
14:33<Brianetta>Turn autoclean off, though, because at most 10 game years later they'll be deleted
14:34<Brianetta>you can turn it on and off at the game console
14:35<Brianetta>set autoclean_pretected to 1
14:35<Brianetta>set autoclean_unprotected to 255
14:35<Brianetta>This will blank the passwords of any company without a player after 1 month, an dwill delete any company that has no password after 255 months
14:35<Brianetta>so turn it on, wait for it to tell you that it cleared the password, then turn it off.
14:36<Brianetta>The players can join again, and give themselves a new password.
14:36<yorick>or reload game
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>or stfu from the cheap seats
14:36<Brianetta>reload isn't cool if you have absent players who *can* remember their password and don't want their company to be vulnerable
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14:37<yorick>or patch openttd so you have a clear_password command
14:37<yorick>or patch it so you can move into the company and change the password
14:38<yorick>or just stop the users from joining server
14:38<Brianetta>Patching openttd can't fix a running game
14:38<yorick>patch+reload ;)
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>hot-replace the binary ;)
14:38<Brianetta>Poke the code
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure gdb can do such magic ;)
14:39<qkr>how do I get my rating better quickly and cheaply so I can build station next to town?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>qkr: bribe, build trees, provide transport
14:40<Zuu>perhaps use timetable to have lot of load time at that town if you have any existing stations there.
14:40<@Belugas>fastest and safest, plant trees
14:41<@Belugas>bribe is fun too ;)
14:41<dih>but only on empty tiles
14:41<@Belugas>cut the trees and replant them :D
14:41<dih>adding a second and third tree to a tile that already has a tree has no influence
14:41<dih>yes :-)
14:41<eekee>erm, cuttong down trees can make your rating much worse can't it?
14:42<dih>some people just plant trees and plant trees on top and wonder why nothing changes
14:42<dih>eekee: planting trees can get you to good
14:42<dih>from rock bottom
14:43<qkr>it doesn't work for me
14:44*peter1138 mumbles at X2... gets my throttle and rudder mixed up :o
14:44<qkr>still "appalling"
14:44<yorick>try closer to the town center
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14:45<@Belugas>keep on planting!
14:45<@Belugas>the town is biogger than just the houses !!
14:45<qkr>I built some land-reserve signs next to it to stop it from growing too much, maybe that's why they're so mad
14:45<Zuu>Plant trees for the environment! :)
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14:46<eekee>yeah they dont' like being hemmed in, but generally if you build anything near a town you should provide a bus or tram service to keep them happy, IMHO
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14:50<@Belugas>much like devs... they don't like been bugged, but generally, if you build a nice and well tough of patch you should see your work commited and you'llbe happy, IMHO
14:50<@peter1138>DAMN RIGHT
14:54*Celestar is back from a business trip
14:55<yorick>welcome back from a business trip
14:55<@Celestar>thanks (=
14:55<@Celestar>hm ...
14:55<@Celestar>still a bunch of bugs on cargodest
14:55<@Belugas>lcuky it's not a busines strip
14:55<@Celestar>why didn't they fix themselves while I was away?
14:57<Eddi|zuHause><Zuu> perhaps use timetable to have lot of load time at that town if you have any existing stations there. <- actually, that won't help with town ratings, towns only care about the number of arrivals/departs
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>waiting vehicles only help the station rating
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>which is unrelated to town ratign
14:57<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: Okay, so station rating don't affect town rating?
14:57<eekee>why are my trains running around with 16% reliability when they're ordered to service at 75%?
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>eekee: maybe the model is too old? or they don't find the depot?
14:58<eekee>one has just found the depot, & the model is fine. Max reliability 99%
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15:01<frosch123>[20:59] <eekee> why are my trains running around with 16% reliability when they're ordered to service at 75%? <- "service interval 75%" means service when the reliabilty has dropped _by_ 75% of the max reliability
15:02<frosch123>i.e. you want to set it to 25%
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>which braniac had that idea?
15:03<frosch123> return _settings_game.vehicle.servint_ispercent ?
15:03<frosch123> (this->reliability < GetEngine(this->engine_type)->reliability * (100 - this->service_interval) / 100) :
15:03<frosch123> (this->date_of_last_service + this->service_interval < _date);
15:03<Zuu>The patch, is anyone willing to have a look at it during the wekend or so? What I can do to make it sightly easier is to split it into two parts, which increase the maintainence work hence why I've not done it yet but acceptible to make the review/merge easier. But then I only know how to make a first patch and the second as a patch to trunk which includes the first patch + the extra stuff onl
15:03<Zuu>y in patch 2.
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15:04<Zuu>(the patch does changes to the query window system, which aim to not make ANY changes to the behaviour of the program, but provide hooks to add windows that at runtime can change from beeing normal windows to query windows.)
15:06<yorick>what happens if more of them are open
15:07<yorick>and why not make it a class variable?
15:07<Zuu>The second part, currently interated but which I can spit into a second patch is making the query window system more generic by adding a function that closes all query windows instead of explicitly closing WC_QUERY_STRING and WC_SAVELOAD
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15:07<Zuu>It could be a public class variable yes. That is also possible.
15:08<@Belugas>Zuu, the second part does not really need the first part, as yu can just addd the window to avoid
15:08<@Belugas>althogh i have to say, it's clean and reminds me of a few attemps i did on the subject myself...
15:08<Zuu>That is true, did not though of it.
15:12<Zuu>A class variable could be added instead of IsQueryWindow which would possible increase the speed a little. I think the reason I chosen to use a function was that it makes the code nicer and the fact that the function in only called twice every input-loop and we don't have that many windows, to make an huge impact.
15:12<Zuu>IsQueryWindow() *
15:13*frosch123 prefers a function
15:13<Zuu>Though the class variable would be perhaps a bit more prone to unthoughfull changes of it's value. But that might not be a big problem.
15:16<Zuu>Something I have not looked into yet but could be done as a spin-off later is to remove the need for query windows to explicitly look the arrow keys from beeing used for paning the window and by that remove the biggest problem of having many query windows open: that the first closed query window will unlock the arrow-keys.
15:17-!-Celestar [] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
15:19*Belugas had some plans a few months ago to allow multiple edit box on same window
15:19<eekee>now why won't trains go in that last platform...
15:20<@Belugas>still faisable, but like... i'm too buzy.lazy
15:20<Zuu>Yea, that is quite an issue we have at the moment.
15:21<Zuu>Also adding an edit box to a window permanently as you need to do at the moment means that you can't use hotkeys while that window is open.
15:21<@Belugas>and this is normal
15:21<@Belugas>i have to look in my black holes of difs
15:22<Zuu>I don't know if you have seen, but I made a patch that adds a search box to the sign list, here I choosed the solution to hide the search box by deafult to work around this problem.
15:22<Sacro> <- should put OpenTTD on
15:22<@Belugas>seen it indeed
15:22<@Belugas>i like the pattern very much, to be honest
15:22<Ammler>Sacro: do you use OpenSuse?
15:22<@Belugas>not you Sacro, Zuu ;)
15:22<Sacro>their defintion of "All major Linux Distributions" is limited to the subset that use RPM
15:22<Ammler>if so, you should include Packman:
15:23<Sacro>Ammler: distrohopping
15:23<Zuu>Belugas: Thanks :)
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15:25<Zuu>But yea it's a bit a question about fixing the edit boxes to make them include some kind of fucus mechanism so they could easier be added to windows or making work arounds.
15:29<planetmaker>[21:27] <frosch123> [21:00:35] [20:59] <eekee> why are my trains running around with 16% reliability when they're ordered to service at 75%? <- "service interval 75%" means service when the reliabilty has dropped _by_ 75% of the max reliability
15:29<planetmaker>^^doesn't seem overly intuitive to me
15:30<planetmaker>I also always assumed they'd got to get service when dropping to 75% reliability.
15:30<Ammler>me too, as an unexperienced breakdown player :-)
15:31<eekee>oh you're kidding me!
15:31<eekee>that needs to be made clear in-game
15:31<Ammler>planetmaker: he is speaking to frosch123
15:32<planetmaker>sorry :P
15:32<Ammler>I hope so, at least :-)
15:33<eekee>I can't think how to make it clear
15:33<frosch123>[21:31] <planetmaker> I also always assumed they'd got to get service when dropping to 75% reliability. <- at least it should depend on the max reliability of the engine
15:33<eekee>it should, yeah
15:34<eekee>the way it works now is practical, it's just not intuitive/clear
15:34<planetmaker>frosch: no, in my opinion it shouldn't.
15:34<planetmaker>I want to ensure a certain reliability of my vehicles. Not a certain relative reliability
15:34<frosch123>planetmaker: So a train with max reliabilty 66% shall be serviced continuously
15:34<planetmaker>Worse vehicles thus had to go more often
15:34<planetmaker>frosch123: yes :)
15:35<planetmaker>ok, that's not sensible.
15:35<eekee>maybe we need 3 service models. Days; "Drop by %"; and "Service if below %"
15:35<planetmaker>he :)
15:36<planetmaker>frosch123: granted, I'd then be tempted to replace that vehicle by something more reliable or set the requirement to something less.
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15:37<frosch123>maybe a tooltip could be added, if someone comes up with a nice, short and correct text
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15:40<eekee>I think if the "service intervals are in %" option was changed to the 3 I suggested that would make it considerably clearer
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15:50<eekee>I wish I could change the servicing interval of all trains at once.
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15:52<eekee>or at least type in the number like you can in the advanced settings
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>you could, if you had a sensible console scripting language (with access to the AI functions)
15:53<eekee>yeah, but wouldn't really need that. A button to set all trains to the current default would do the trick
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15:53<eekee>A scripting language would have it's uses though
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>no, it wouldn't... it's yet another special case that people would immediately want to be more flexible
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15:54<eekee>it would require vastly less code than a scripting language though :)
15:55<eekee>but you're right
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>but the scripting language is needed anyway, for the AI
15:55<eekee>ahh ok
16:02<@peter1138>Waltz! for Aidan!
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16:51*Belugas waves good night
16:52<welshdragon>night Belugas
16:56<Zuu>Good night Belugas
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17:05*peter1138 wonders how to fix non-gradual loading.
17:06<@Rubidium>with a dash of coding style?
17:06<@Rubidium>and a topping of comments
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17:15<@peter1138>I was thinking of some random rewrite using phrases such as "it have" or "it do" ...
17:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14301 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.h): -Codechange: give the vehicle list and group list the same relative size and the same absolute height for the vehicle list items.
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17:35<Zuu>Good night
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause>hm, this sulai guy is calling my plural suggestion a "hack"...
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17:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14302 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: simplify and make the vehicle list and group windows behave the same w.r.t. getting wider (by default) for trains than the other vehicles.
17:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14303 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Codechange: make the vehicle list part of the group window look exactly like the vehicle list instead of some buttons being one pixel wider/smaller.
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18:24<Czeko>Ammler: im back, i have the list :-)
18:25<Ammler>you mean the grf?
18:26<Czeko>i only have the .txt list with the values
18:27<Ammler>something like that:
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>i need a german town generator with >3000 names
18:28<rortom__>just convert real town names?
18:28<Czeko>yeah, but with C3 9E for the accents
18:28-!-Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggstry
18:29<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: swiss towns grf has 2k real names
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>switzerland hasn't been german for like 800 years :)
18:30<Ammler>don't need to answer :-)
18:31<Ammler>Czeko: now, you need help to get it into a GRF?
18:32<Czeko>Ammler:yes, i have zero experience... can i use that grfwizard ive read about?
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18:32<Ammler>that sounds more for a graphic assistent
18:33<Czeko>then its no use for this
18:36<Ammler>try somehow to get from the list to something like that:
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18:36<Ammler>and ask concret questions if you see trouble somewhere :-)
18:37<Ammler>you have the wiki link still?
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18:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14304 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Fix (r14104): waypoint train list wasn't closed with the waypoint window (crashes since r14296)
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18:55<Czeko>where can i test the .nfo once i get it formatted like your example?
18:56<Czeko>or turn it into .grf
18:56<Ammler>you need nforenum for syntax test and clean up
18:56<Ammler>and then grfcodec
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19:01<Czeko>thanks! :-)
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19:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14305 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_road.cpp: -Fix [FS#2294] (r5033): [YAPF] Only reserve road slots for multistop when they are really reachable.
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21:00<Eddi|zuHause>anyone ever noticed how boring this channel is at 3 AM?
21:02<ln>though it is 4 AM.
21:03<bleepy>lies, it's 2AM
21:03*FauxFaux nods at bleepy.
21:03*FauxFaux is playing a coop game with a net income of -7m for the last few years, mostly due to a massive "Other" expenditure. >.<
21:04<bleepy>gotta love Other!
21:04<ln>Wordt op eenvoudige wijze vervangen en automatisch opgeladen wanneer het apparaat op het net wordt aangesloten.
21:09<Tefad>Other = bribes?
21:09<FauxFaux>Pretty much.
21:09<bleepy>lol :>
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21:18<Eddi|zuHause>"wurde auf ??? weise ??? und automatisch aufgeladen wenn der apparat nicht angeschlossen war?"
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't make any sense
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>and it doesn't sound like star trek either :p
21:22<ln>fortunately the package has the same in german, too
21:23<ln>Solange das Gerät am Stromnetz angeschlossen ist, lädt sich der Akku automatisch auf.
21:32<ln>i'm not sure if this helped the situation of the channel being boring at this time.
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21:37<Eddi|zuHause>that's less words than the dutch sentence
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 13 00:00:34 2008