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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-09-14

---Logopened Sun Sep 14 00:00:07 2008
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01:53<DaleStan>Tekky: It is usually more useful to ask the real question.
01:55<Tekky>yes, but I thought they would be all asleep now, anyway. So it seemed not worth explaining the problem if everyone is asleep :-)
01:55<Tekky>Anyway, I have solved the problem in the mean time.
01:56<DaleStan>Explain it anyway. Half the time, properly explaining the problem reveals the solution.
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02:08<Tekky>I found the cause of the problem and have reported it to FlySpray:
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03:52<Forked>good morning, fellow addicts
03:57<Eddi|zuHause>and you think this is funny for the 120th time?
03:58<Forked>and mister grumpy..?
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04:00<@peter1138>Rubidium, does look correct?
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04:08<@peter1138>Rubidium, although... should it not be cur->next rather than prev->next...?
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04:26<@Rubidium>peter1138: looks okay and it should use cur->next instead of prev->next
04:27<@Rubidium>or rather that'd make a bit more sense
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04:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14317 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r13662) [FS#2298]: Order distance processing for conditional orders on ships treated v->orders as an array, and didn't use the correct next order.
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05:32<Eddi|zuHause>how do i check that a file NOT exists? i only find examples for "file exists"...
05:33<@peter1138>Open the path in explorer and see if it's there.
05:33<@peter1138>Unless you want to be more specific...
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>in a shell script
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05:33<@peter1138>if file exists... if ! file exists...
05:33<ln>if [ ! -f xxx.jpg ]
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>thank you ;)
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06:16<eQualizer>Didn't water used to have animation?
06:16<@Rubidium>you should enable animation
06:17<eQualizer>Oh. Just look at that. :D
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06:18<yorick>cheap wireless router...
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06:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14318 /trunk/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2296]: OSK of the chat box did not get updated. This as the chatbox got a higher priority than the OSK instead of the usual other way around.
06:31<@Rubidium>peter1138: does make sense?
06:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14319 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10760): use operator delete when deleting an order, so order pool fills up a bit slower
06:33<ln>... what was used earlier, then?
06:33<@peter1138>"Give the item free"? What?
06:34<@peter1138>Rubidium, probably.
06:35<@peter1138>(Showing hexadecimals numbers to users? Who came up with that idea?)
06:35<@Rubidium>I reckon George
06:37<SmatZ>Rubidium: r2007 prints "0x'number'"
06:37*SmatZ searches for hexnibbles...
06:38<@Rubidium>I reckon that'd mean "0-9a-f"
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06:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14320 /trunk/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2299]: glitch when chatbox window is full and the window is scrolled (yorP)
06:40<SmatZ>Rubidium: I mean, it prints "0xaabbccdd", while printf("%x") prints just aabbccdd
06:40<SmatZ>+ return buff + snprintf(buff, last - buff, "%x", (uint32)number);
06:40<SmatZ>--> "0x%x"
06:40<@Rubidium>looking at an old diff, aren't you?
06:40<SmatZ>but I will have a look what exactly it does, eg. if it doesn't ...
06:40<SmatZ>yes ok :)
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06:42<@peter1138>%x or %X ? hehe
06:42<@Rubidium>the opposite of what TTDP does ;)
06:42<UbuntuNigger>GNAA declares boycott of all foods that make sperm taste bad
06:42<UbuntuNigger>Washington, District of Columbia (USNS) - Gathered on the steps of the Justice Department, gay niggers worldwide announced their most ambitious ploy for political power to date, a boycott of all foods that make semen taste awful. GNAA president timecop led the rally with a pink megaphone, shouting over the noise of riot cops assembling in case the peaceful assembly turned violent.
06:42<UbuntuNigger>"My friends," he lisped at the top of his lungs. "As America's - no, the world's - foremost consumers of sperm and without a doubt its greatest enjoyers and advocates, we plead - no, we demand - that these prostate poisons be eliminated from the modern diet." Around him, a surging throng of foamy devotees showed their approval with a shower of bodily fluids.
06:42<UbuntuNigger>According to timecop, numerous studies prove that gay volunteers not only found that tobacco left a lingering moldy taste in semen, but that such commonplace items as coffee and multivitamin pills could make semen taste muddy and like insecticide, respectively. "These are intolerant, I mean, intolerable substances," timecop spluttered.
06:42-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*dministra@*] by Rubidium
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06:44<yorick>what does that spam for?
06:45<SmatZ>Rubidium: TTDP prints uppercase, and including most significant zeros
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06:46<SmatZ>but I am not sure how to pass number of characters to print... maybe in upper bytes of that 'int64', or use different formatting character for that?
06:50<Alberth>SmatZ: 0x%8x
06:50<@Rubidium>Alberth: yeah... too bad that's not what we're looking for
06:51<Mortal>wouldn't that be 0x%08x?
06:51<Mortal>otherwise 8 would indicate... uhh
06:52<Mortal>I don't know
06:52<SmatZ>Mortal: yes, 0x%08X ... for dword ... but 0x%04X for word and 0x%02X for byte
06:53<Mortal>yep, my point was that alberth was missing the padding char identifier, 0
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06:55<@Rubidium>SmatZ: but does it matter whether to draw the zeros or not?
06:55<Alberth>Mortal: apparently, use 8 characters to print number (and prepend with SPACE if less needed). Very ugly indeed.
06:57<SmatZ>Rubidium: maybe it can be done without leading zeros until someone reports that :)
06:58<SmatZ>specs don't say whether or not to print those zeros
06:59<@Rubidium>exactly, so we're following the specs
06:59<Mortal>yeah Alberth, the zero is the padding character... if none chosen, space is default
07:00<frosch123>the uint64 dparam would have enough space to store it as string :p
07:00<@Rubidium>frosch123: really?
07:01<Mortal>Rubidium, it's 8 bytes
07:01<frosch123>except the '0x' and the terminating '\0' (when 8 chars)
07:01<@Rubidium>so it isn't a string that gets stored
07:02<Mortal>the memory isn't something you just dump things on
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07:02<Mortal>it's not a big string
07:02<Mortal>it's a series of characters
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07:37<Alberth>Rubidium: I'd like to discuss FS#1905 (resizing widgets) to make it move forward again. Is now a good time?
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08:04<@Rubidium>Alberth: I've not have time to look at that huge diff in depth
08:05<@Rubidium>and I'm not 100% sure that moving to that scheme magically solves all the problems
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08:05<@Rubidium>as you can't easily determine the minimum size of quite a few widgets
08:05<@Rubidium>e.g. the widget showing the speed/destination of a vehicle
08:06<@Rubidium>and I wouldn't have a clue how to tell to invalidate a single widget
08:06<@Rubidium>e.g. update the widget showing he speed/destination of a vehicle
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08:15<Alberth>Tnx for your answer.
08:15<TrueBrain>that will be 5 euroes
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08:17<Alberth>Give me a bank account number, and I'll send you some money
08:17<Alberth>Everything all-right TrueBrain?
08:19<TrueBrain>SmatZ: if you give a link, give it in english :p
08:19<@Rubidium>or give it without language, i.e.
08:19<SmatZ>TrueBrain: it's in English, isn't it? :)
08:19<TrueBrain>for now ...
08:19<Ammler>that is the page with SmatZ's private account :P
08:20<Alberth>I didn't state which number I wanted ;-)
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08:33<yorick>vehicles don't overtake on intersections, and they like to brake down exactly there
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08:35<Alberth>Rubidium: The general concept is that a widget knows how to obtain its minimal size. It can either compute that in some way, or you can simply give it a size eg when you want to display only part of a string.
08:37<Alberth>In the current diff, it is kind of fixed (you'd have to derive a new class to change it). In the mean time I have found a way to make it easier to change.
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08:40<Alberth>W.r.t. updating, call BaseWidget::Invalidate(const Window*)
08:47<Ammler>TrueBrain: will you fix the green title bar?
08:47<Ammler>(max length)
08:47<TrueBrain>what is there to fix
08:48<TrueBrain>there is nothing broken about it ..
08:48<Ammler>it cuts thext
08:48<TrueBrain>as it is intended to do
08:48<TrueBrain>took me pretty long to make it cut ...
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08:49<Ammler>makes only sense, if there is a box on the right side
08:49<Ammler>(on the frontpage)
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09:23<Ammler>is there a "easy" way to get the 3. field from the finger file?
09:23<Ammler>with bash
09:24<frosch123>use tcl or sed
09:31<Alberth>Ammler: cut -f3 < versions.txt
09:31<Brianetta>3. field?
09:32*Brianetta still parses the web site
09:36<eQualizer>This is stupid. I can build a railway station on top of another railway station, but I can't build a railway station on top of a plain tracks? :(
09:39*SmatZ slaps eQualizer
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09:40<eQualizer>? :(
09:41<SmatZ>eQualizer: it's not stupid :-P it's designed this way
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09:46<Phantasm>Is 64 bit version for vista any faster than 32 bit version?
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09:47<murray>Phantasm: you should read up on what 64bit vs 32bit actually is
09:48<murray>to understand if performance will improve
09:48<@peter1138>More available registers can improve performance.
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09:49<Phantasm>I know what it is. But the performance increase depends on the implementation.. On many cases 64 bit will give performance benefit over 32 bit, but if the implementation isn't properly done for 64 bit, but just a quick tweak, it might be slower than 32 bit one.
09:50<Phantasm>Like the case with FFDShow Tryouts.. 64 bit version is slower than 32 bit version. So, has anyone done any benchmarks to see if there is difference?
09:50<FauxFaux>Performance also depends on processor.
09:52<Phantasm>I don't think there is much difference between intel and amd processors in that case.
09:53<TrueBrain>as long as you don't want to compare IA64 ...
09:53<Phantasm>Not like anyone uses itanium on home computers.
09:53<TrueBrain>very true :) But you were generalizing Intel CPUs ;)
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09:54<@Rubidium>yeah, for that we first have to compile zlib/libfreetype and libpng ;)
09:54<Phantasm>The implementations for the AMD64 and EM64T are nearly identical, so those should go side by side on performance difference from 64.
09:54<TrueBrain>Phantasm: on that I can agree :)
09:54<@Rubidium>and I wonder whether there's directx for IA64
09:54<TrueBrain>Rubidium: GCC can produce IA64 (well, sort of)
09:55<Phantasm>TrueBrain: I never generalized intel cpus. The only generalization I did was between AMD64 and EM64T.
09:55<Phantasm>So, no-one has done any performance tests between 32 bit and 64 bit versions?
09:57<@Rubidium>oh we have :)
09:57<@Rubidium>just not the one you're interested in
09:58<@Rubidium>64 bits compile is *much* slower than 32 bits
09:58<Phantasm>Well, are there any stability issues with the 64 bit version?
09:58<@Rubidium>haven't seen any bugs yet
09:59<TrueBrain>I am running 64bit linux since r100 or so, it is pretty stable :p
09:59<Phantasm>Ok, so getting 64 bit version should be safe.
10:00<Phantasm>I suppose I'll get the 64 bit one when Belugas gets the industry spawn fix on big maps there.
10:00<@Rubidium>first win64 compile I can find is of August 12th 2006
10:01<SmatZ>on amd64, crypto is ~3 times faster (openssl speed)
10:01<SmatZ>talking about linux of course...
10:01<SmatZ>more memory consumption (+>50%)
10:01<Ammler>Alberth: thanks :-)
10:01<Phantasm>On linux ssh file transfer is like 10 times faster than that on windows.. ;P
10:01<Phantasm>Not sure if there just aren't any good programs to do it for windows..
10:02<Phantasm>(32 bit case.)
10:02<SmatZ>and speed test I did showed OTTD runs faster when compiled as 32bit binary
10:02<TrueBrain>I wonder if there are any good problems in general for Windows (Microsoft bashing, I love it)
10:02<SmatZ>maybe because of lower memory/cache needs
10:02<SmatZ>but for example, 32bit blitters run faster on 64bit machine because of more registers
10:02*SmatZ is done
10:03<Alberth>TrueBrain: 1 page Word documents :)
10:03<frosch123>[16:03] <Phantasm> On linux ssh file transfer is like 10 times faster than that on windows.. ;P <- if you want to profile the speed of your filesystem, grf2html is a good choose
10:04<Phantasm>frosch123: What does filer transfer over ssh have anything to do with filesystem speed?
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10:05<frosch123>when you copy a lot of small files, the filesystem has a strong impact on performance
10:06<Phantasm>Of course, but that case is clearly the cpu usage of ssh.
10:06<Phantasm>On windows it is insanely high.
10:06<Phantasm>2.5 GHz opteron can only do 3 MB/s on 32 bit windows with winscp.
10:07<frosch123>ammler complained somewhen about grf2html being slow, while he was using nfs
10:08<frosch123>Phantasm: don't know I only have 100 mb networks
10:09<Phantasm>frosch123: 100 Mbps network can do more than 3 MB/s.
10:10<Forked>winscp is slow
10:10<frosch123>yeah, I guess it is a bit early in the morning :p
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10:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14321 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp table/control_codes.h): -Add: support for newgrfs printing bytes/words/dwords as hexadecimals.
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10:34<yorick>should add support for grf string-by-name overriding
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11:07<@peter1138>grf string-by-name?
11:08<welshdragon>peter1138, why does your nightly not use YAPP?
11:08<Alberth>Is there somewhere a list about which StringID's are used for what purpose (and which belong together etc)?
11:10<Alberth>welshdragon: What nightly are you talking about? both cargodest branch and trunk versions have YAPP afaik
11:11<Sacro>welshdragon: LINKEH
11:11*Sacro <3 nightly servars
11:11*Sacro wants to restart Brianetta's nightly
11:11<welshdragon>Sacro, umm
11:11<welshdragon>look for it
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11:12<welshdragon>Peter's nightly
11:12<welshdragon>Alberth, r14300
11:12<welshdragon>my setting show YAPF is used
11:14<Pikka>welshdragon, YAPP is active in peter's server...
11:14<Sacro>what is with all the capitalisation on the homepage
11:14<Sacro>please lowercase open source and clone
11:15<Alberth>Should have YAPP, was introduced before that revision
11:15*welshdragon could offer a welsh translation
11:16<Alberth>Sacro: Created using the OpenTTD intro screen as guide?
11:16<Sacro>Alberth: yes
11:16<Sacro>but it shouldn't have open and source capitalised
11:17<Sacro>we are not Germans afterall
11:18<Sacro>and there is no link to the nightlies archive :(
11:18<welshdragon>Sacro, have you found peter1138's nightly server?
11:18<Sacro>"If ANY of the checksums doesn't match" <- don't
11:18<Sacro>!seen TrueBrain
11:18<Sacro>@seen TrueBrain
11:18<@DorpsGek>Sacro: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 16 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> I wonder if there are any good problems in general for Windows (Microsoft bashing, I love it)
11:19<Sacro>welshdragon: i need a binary
11:19<TrueBrain>@ignore Sacro
11:19<Sacro>for some reason doesn't have binaries
11:19<welshdragon>TrueBrain, it would be hard to ignore him in 8 days
11:19<Sacro>TrueBrain: just some minor modifications needed on the home page
11:19<welshdragon>he could just run round to mine and pinch my wireless :o
11:20<Sacro>welshdragon: pff, there's other rooms4u wifi points nearer
11:20<welshdragon>pff, but i would have food
11:20<Sacro>welshdragon: grepping't find it
11:20<TrueBrain>Sacro: 'any of the checksums' is singular, so it should be: doesn't
11:21<Sacro>TrueBrain: checksums
11:21<TrueBrain>Sacro: 'any of'
11:21<Sacro>if one of the checksums doesn't match
11:21<Sacro>if any of the checksums don't match
11:21<Sacro>you used any
11:21<Sacro>which can return >1 results
11:21<welshdragon>peter1138, what's your server address?
11:21<Sacro>>1 != singular
11:22<TrueBrain>"any as a pronoun. When used as a pronoun, any can take either a singular or plural verb depending on how it is construed: Any of these books is suitable (that is, any one). But are any (that is, some) of them available?"
11:23<TrueBrain>in this case the former is what is meant
11:23<Sacro>i strongly dislike the usage of doesn't with any
11:23<Sacro>it doesn't read right
11:23<TrueBrain>it is what the dictonary says
11:23<TrueBrain>so either change the dictonary ...
11:24<Sacro>perhaps swtich any for some
11:24<Sacro>that'd be better
11:24<Sacro>if some of the checksums don't match
11:24<TrueBrain>no, 'some' would be very silly
11:24<TrueBrain>'one of the' is what is ment
11:24<TrueBrain>'some' is like: one can fail, but if 2 fail, you are in trouble
11:24*Sacro prods Brianetta and DaleStan
11:24*Sacro needs backaup
11:24<Alberth>'at least one of the' :)
11:24*Sacro also prods orudge
11:24<TrueBrain>that is not true.
11:25<TrueBrain>but, according to the dictonary, the current says exactly the same
11:25-!-Pikka [PikkaBird@] has quit []
11:25<Sacro>i think a comma is needed too
11:25<Ammler>TrueBrain: is there a formula to get this link from finger: ?
11:25<TrueBrain>and sorry if you don't like that Sacro, but one can't argue with dictonaries...
11:25<Ammler>as the filename has a "trunk"
11:26<@Rubidium>Ammler: take a look at the php script I made for Zuu
11:26<TrueBrain>Ammler: the 'trunk' part is always the last part of the 'nightlies/trunk'
11:29<Ammler>Thanks, Rubidium, I do.
11:29<Sacro>TrueBrain: but dictionaries alter according to common usage
11:30<TrueBrain>Sacro: sure, keep on trying, maybe you find a loophole in the dictonary which says you are right
11:30<@Rubidium>Sacro: that is not true
11:30<Sacro>TrueBrain: also, the sentance is too long
11:30<Sacro>comma between us and or
11:30<Sacro>didn't come from us, or got broken
11:31<TrueBrain>of all the places, you want it to place there .. lol
11:31<Sacro>If ANY of the checksums don't match the file you downloaded then it means it might not have come from us, or got broken during transport and might possibly contain dangerous modifications.
11:33-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
11:34<TrueBrain>Sacro: again, wrong, not according to the dictonary
11:34<yorick>I agree with sacro
11:35<TrueBrain>I try to find a website which tells you when to use a comma in english, but I cant find one which shows why in this case there shouldn't be one at that position ..
11:35<TrueBrain>only examples with 'and'
11:35<Sacro>TrueBrain: because you can't say the whole sentence in one breath
11:35<Sacro>it needs breaking up
11:35<TrueBrain>haha, yeah, that is the rule for comma use
11:35<Sacro>i'd possibly put one after transport too
11:36<Sacro>as that part of the sentance can be missed
11:36<TrueBrain>you can't put commas randomly in a setence, because you feel like
11:36<TrueBrain>there are rules for that :)
11:36<Sacro>I know the rules :p
11:36<TrueBrain>clearly not :)
11:36<TrueBrain>that part of the sentence for sure cannot be missed
11:36<Sacro>cite me wrong
11:36<Sacro>yes it can
11:37<TrueBrain>okay, in your opinion, sure, but that is not what the intention of the sentence is
11:37<Sacro>because you can skip over the "or got broken during transport" and the sentence still makes sense
11:37<TrueBrain>both 'not from us' as 'broken during transport' are equal important
11:37<TrueBrain>therefor, the right part is not a sub-sentence of the whole
11:37<Sacro>yes, but is between commas and not brackets
11:37<Sacro>so it can be done
11:37-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:37<Sacro>without altering the meaning
11:37<TrueBrain>I can put a comme after every word
11:37<Sacro>if it is in brackets then it is safe to be ignored
11:37<TrueBrain>but okay, waste of my time ..
11:39<@orudge>er, right, apparently I'm needed to prove somebody right
11:39<@orudge>what is it that needs proving?
11:39<@orudge>[16:18:28] <Sacro> "If ANY of the checksums doesn't match" <- don't <-- he is correct
11:39<Sacro>yay :D
11:39<@orudge>if one of them doesn't, if any of them don't
11:39<TrueBrain>orudge: then I too suggest you find a dictonary ;)
11:40<@orudge>what does the dictionary say?
11:40<Sacro>TrueBrain: a dictionary changes according to common usage
11:40<TrueBrain>[17:22] <TrueBrain> "any as a pronoun. When used as a pronoun, any can take either a singular or plural verb depending on how it is construed: Any of these books is suitable (that is, any one). But are any (that is, some) of them available?"
11:40<TrueBrain>but then again, the sentence clearly shows Rubidium once in his life did some Latin :)
11:41<TrueBrain>Sacro: blablablabla
11:41<TrueBrain>really, that is bull
11:41<@orudge>well, nevertheless, it still looks wrong ;)
11:41<Sacro>it feels wrong too, it grates when i read it
11:41<TrueBrain>orudge: on that, I agree; but looking wrong doesn't make it wrong :)
11:41<Sacro>the language would tend towards the usage that feels best
11:42<TrueBrain>Sacro: if that were true, the end would be lost :)
11:43-!-Purno [] has joined #openttd
11:43<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: "language that doesn't feel good to Sacro does feel good to me"
11:44<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you miss a comma!! :p
11:44-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@] has joined #openttd
11:44<TrueBrain>(lol :))
11:45<@orudge>anyway, something different I would pick a bone about
11:45<@orudge>"OpenTTD is an Open Source Clone of Transport Tycoon Deluxe". I seem to recall it used to be the case that we would prefer to not refer to OpenTTD as a "clone".
11:45<@orudge>Not quite sure what you would call it in a snappy little sentence, though
11:45<TrueBrain>orudge:, if you have the time :)
11:45<yorick>just got a cargodest assertion
11:45<@orudge>an open source "version"?
11:45<Sacro>and open source shouldn't be capitalised
11:45-!-Frostregen [] has joined #openttd
11:45<Sacro>orudge: remake?
11:45<@orudge>TrueBrain: what about it? I'm looking at it just now :)
11:46<@orudge>remake perhaps, yes
11:46<Sacro>Wikipedia calls it an "open source game engine"
11:46<Sacro>but I think it's surpassed that now
11:46<yorick>how do I print out a specific line for all files in a dir?
11:47<planetmaker>grep, tail & head are your friend, I'd say
11:47<@orudge>hmm, I would also suggest, minor little things, "Learn How to Play" -> "Learn how to play"; and similar capitalisation issues, at least if this is meant to be en_GB, which according to the flag it is ;)
11:47-!-Sacro_ [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
11:47-!-Sacro_ [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has left #openttd []
11:47<@orudge>but anyway
11:48<@orudge>the site looks good overall
11:48-!-Sacro_ [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
11:48<@orudge>Sacro keeps breaking
11:48<Sacro_>orudge: yes, router is fubar
11:48<Sacro_>i think someone is bittorrenting and maxing out the connections
11:48<TrueBrain>orudge: please take the 'clone' part to the other devs, if you like
11:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14322 /trunk/src/waypoint.cpp: -Fix (r10368): possible assert when renaming removed waypoint
11:49<TrueBrain>about those capitals, don't book-titles carry capitalisation like that in en_GB?
11:49<@orudge>TrueBrain: if I can be bothered, I may argue it later on or something
11:49<TrueBrain>(truly wondering btw :))
11:50<@orudge>but Headings Like These are generally regarded as an Americanism
11:50<@orudge>one which may be creeping in here a bit more often
11:50<TrueBrain>in naming of series and stuff I see that a lot ..
11:50<Sacro_>orudge: or a german
11:50<@orudge>certainly, in academic settings, one will tend not to capitalise everything
11:50<@orudge>proper nouns would be capitalised, of course
11:50<TrueBrain>hehe, fair enough :)
11:52<@peter1138>It Is Really Quite Annoying When Some New Person On The Forum Believes Every First Letter Should Be Capitalised Like This.
11:52<@peter1138>And we shouldn't do it either.
11:52<TrueBrain>lol @ peter1138 :)
11:53<@orudge>something like looks nicer to me
11:53<@orudge>more elegant
11:53<TrueBrain>orudge: will change it :)
11:53<@orudge>speaking of such matters
11:53<Sacro_>orudge: the top line looks too long
11:54<Sacro_>can you justify it?
11:54-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:54<@orudge>well, I thought it looked alright. Is that justification enough? ;)
11:54<@orudge>(yes, I know what you meant :p)
11:54<@orudge>not sure if justification would make it look better
11:54<@orudge>centering might
11:55<Sacro_>i know you'd take that meaning of justification :P
11:55<Sacro_>cp readme.txt openttd.cfg && ./openttd really breaks it
11:56<TrueBrain>rm -rf / && reboot really breaks
11:56<TrueBrain>(please never execute the above as root)
11:56<welshdragon>i like orudge's better, sorry TrueBrain
11:56<SmatZ>TrueBrain: some linuxes are fool-proof against rm /
11:56<yorick>planetmaker: how should head & tail help me?
11:56<Sacro_>TrueBrain: it won't reboot
11:56<Sacro_>as /sbin/reboot will have gone
11:56<TrueBrain>welshdragon: why sorry? :)
11:56<welshdragon>i know you worked hard on it
11:57<@orudge>& instead of && would likely work
11:57<@orudge>as it'd probably start reboot before it gets deleted
11:57<@orudge>it'd then be a race to see how much rm gets to delete while it shuts down
11:57<planetmaker>yorick: depends very much upon what you mean with 'specific line'. If you always look for the last line, tail is your friend.
11:57<yorick>I don't look for the last line
11:57<yorick>I look for the 2008th line
11:57<yorick>if there is one
11:57<TrueBrain>welshdragon: so it should stay how it is? :p Hehe :)
11:58<planetmaker>yorik: then use head
11:58<TrueBrain>welshdragon: but tnx anyway ;) And as I said, I agree with orudge too ;)
11:58<Ammler>yorick: planetmaker, up for another competition for new newgrf gui :P
11:58<welshdragon>TrueBrain, it does need modifications
11:58<TrueBrain>very true :)
11:58<yorick>Ammler: tried that
11:58<planetmaker>Ammler: sorry, no :S
11:59<yorick>rgrep -n "assert" * | grep ":2008:" :)
11:59<planetmaker>yorick: cat 'file' | head --lines=2008 | tail --lines=1
12:01<ln>am i seeing useless use of cat
12:01<planetmaker>ln: yes :P
12:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14323 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14064): forgot a return...
12:02<planetmaker>but you might want to replace cat by some command of your choice.
12:02-!-Clinton [] has joined #openttd
12:03<yorick>planetmaker: heh
12:03<Clinton>when do stations start losing cargo due to lack of service?
12:03<yorick>that is not going to work
12:03<yorick>cat-ing all...
12:03<yorick>and it is a useless cat :)
12:07<Sacro_>peter1138: what happened to /o/ ?
12:08<yorick>hum, strange
12:09<yorick>assert in DoClearTownHouseHelper
12:09<yorick>most likely because I built a station in the middle of a town
12:11<yorick>I got a reproducing save, but it's made with a cargodest updated to current trunk and patched with improved breakdowns
12:11<yorick>none of them should call the DoClearTownHouseHelper
12:12<planetmaker>yorick: then load it in an unmodified trunk version. None of them should modify the savegame structure AFAIK
12:12<yorick>improved breakdowns adds a patch setting
12:13<yorick>and cargodest does modify the savegame structure AFAIK
12:13<planetmaker>last time I checked the latter wasn't true
12:13<yorick>then how does it store cargo destinations
12:13<planetmaker>it doesn't.
12:13<yorick>and patch settings to select if cargo has destinations?
12:14<planetmaker>dunno. Maybe it changed. I only remember Celestar saying that it doesn't save in the savegame.
12:14<yorick>the destinations, maybe
12:14<yorick>but it does save patches
12:15-!-KritiK [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:15<planetmaker>bad luck for you then :)
12:15<planetmaker>Reproduce your error in trunk.
12:18<yorick>I first need to get it to load without assert
12:18*yorick replaces assert by return
12:21<Brianetta>[16:20] <TrueBrain> Sacro: 'any of the checksums' is singular, so it should be: doesn't
12:21<Brianetta>TrueBrain: That's plural
12:22<TrueBrain>Brianetta: and for you too, oh boy, I hate repeating myself: get a dictonary
12:22<Brianetta>TrueBrain: I have several.
12:22<Brianetta>Which would you have me consult?
12:23<TrueBrain>[17:40] <TrueBrain> [17:22] <TrueBrain> "any as a pronoun. When used as a pronoun, any can take either a singular or plural verb depending on how it is construed: Any of these books is suitable (that is, any one). But are any (that is, some) of them available?"
12:23<Brianetta>It's still plural.
12:23<TrueBrain>with a singular verb
12:24<TrueBrain>that talks about the nouns .. that we agree on is plural (hence, the 'checksum_s_')
12:26<yorick>why would one use a singular verb with a plural noun?
12:26<Brianetta>match is plural
12:26<Brianetta>maches is singular
12:26<Brianetta>it matches
12:27<Brianetta>they match
12:27<TrueBrain>yorick: it happens in more situations
12:27<yorick>does it?
12:27<TrueBrain>yorick: yup :) Languages are such funny things .. even in Dutch you have it
12:27<TrueBrain>to name one very widely known :)
12:27<yorick>that is a singular noun...
12:28<TrueBrain>ah, like that, yes, you are right
12:29-!-Yeggstry [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:29<frosch123>google: 7.940.000 for "do any of these", 604.000 for "does any of these". So does anyone want to check them semantically?
12:29-!-Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
12:30<Sacro>frosch123: "do any of these" is a question
12:30<Sacro>"does any of these" is a horrible bit of language
12:30<frosch123>yeah, but does that change the simular/plural issue?
12:30<yorick>frosch123: yes
12:30<Sacro>i mean "does any of these downloads have viris"
12:31<Sacro>Does any of these brand names for memory cards sound familiar to you?
12:31<Sacro>hmm, that's allowable
12:31<Sacro>well, that's just my accent, i wouldn't say it was proper English
12:31<TrueBrain>Sacro: that in fact is correct ;)
12:31<TrueBrain>well, according to the dictonary that is :p
12:31<Brianetta>Sacro: Barely; "do" is better
12:31-!-Yeggstry [] has joined #openttd
12:32<Brianetta>TrueBrain: Put the dictionary away and get a grammar guid
12:32<yorick>I'd say it's "do"
12:32<Sacro>Brianetta: yes, this is the grammer arguement
12:32<welshdragon>i say do too
12:32<welshdragon>Sacro, *GRAMMAR
12:32<Sacro>TrueBrain: just cos the dictionary says it is correct doesn't mean it is proper
12:32<welshdragon>grammer is the dyslexic way of saying things
12:33<TrueBrain>Brianetta: my dictonary is so nice to include a big grammar part :)
12:33<TrueBrain>Sacro: my dict says it is correct english, it indeed doesn't say a thing what is commonly used
12:33<Sacro>TrueBrain: you should just ask people who speak English on a daily basis
12:33<Sacro>and who grew up with it :
12:34<Brianetta>Or those who took an English qualification
12:34<TrueBrain>Sacro: so you think websites should contain the english that is spoken? Cool ...
12:34<welshdragon>Sacro, true english is correct, it just varies
12:34<Sacro>TrueBrain: English as she is spoken!
12:34<welshdragon>Brianetta, agreed, i have a GCSE grade B in Engkish, coukdn't be arsed to do an A Level in it
12:34*Brianetta recommends these:
12:35<TrueBrain>still, it amazes me that you all argue with what all dictonaries say .. so you guys really claim to know English better than a dictonary .. or better: the grammar part of a dictonary ..
12:35<@Rubidium>Saclo: yes, Inglish as it ish spoken by many people in fal awai countlies
12:35<welshdragon>Rubidium, haha
12:35<TrueBrain>I myself don't always agree with a Dutch dictonary says how things should be used ... nevertheless, in an official document, I have no choice but the follow what it says
12:36<welshdragon>Sacro, be grateful it wasn't written in lolspeak or textspeak, and that at least 90% of the website is gramatically correct
12:37<Sacro>welshdragon: *English
12:37<Sacro>TrueBrain: we write the dictionaries
12:37<TrueBrain>sure, in your world you do
12:38<@peter1138>There is also American versus English grammar.
12:38<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: he's right, that's why there is NO official English (but a lot of "dialects") and there is an official Dutch
12:38<yorick>there is also dutch versus English grammar
12:38<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I am so happy with ABN :) Oh wait .. AN nowedays .. :p
12:39-!-Yeggstry [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:39-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*Yorick@*] by peter1138
12:39-!-yorick was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [There is also kickban versus bankick]
12:39<welshdragon>peter1138, haha
12:39<welshdragon>well done
12:40<Sacro>alas poor yorick
12:40<Sacro>i knew him horatio
12:40<@Rubidium>TrueBrain, as in: In the NL/BE the correct spelling is governed by some government committee, whereas the English dictionaries! are trying to keep as "close" as possible to what is used. So if enough people start writing English in 1337 that'll become the English of the dictionaries.
12:40<Sacro>a man of infinate jest
12:41<Sacro>Rubidium: l337
12:41-!-[com]buster [] has quit [Quit: Operator, give me an exit]
12:41<@orudge>Sacro: sup homie
12:41<TrueBrain>Rubidium: hmm, didn't know that :) Although nowedays Dutch tends to walk that way too ....
12:41<TrueBrain>'googlen' as a verb, pfff
12:41<@orudge>quite, "google" has made it into the Oxford English Dictionary too
12:42<@orudge>Google themselves of course don't want this
12:42<TrueBrain>and they are right
12:42<@orudge>as they don't want their trademark to go the way of "hoover"
12:42<TrueBrain>it is idiotic ...
12:42<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: partly... that is put there by the committee
12:42<Sacro>orudge: nowt much, sup wit' you?
12:42<TrueBrain>Rubidium: agree'd, still .. blah!
12:42-!-Yeggstry [] has joined #openttd
12:42<eekee>English used to be... well, The Queens English was taught in schools, but it differed enough from the daily usage of many classes that it was a bit silly
12:42<@Rubidium>ah well, my lovely English dictionary lists smilies and some texting-language
12:42<@orudge>Rubidium: burn it!
12:42<@Rubidium>as well as words like Zuyderzee
12:43<TrueBrain>Yeggstry: can you please make your connection more stable, or leave this channel till it does? (no offense meant, but you are leaving/joining for the last few hours ...)
12:43-!-Frostregen [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:43<Sacro>tell frostregen the same
12:43-!-welshdragon [] has left #openttd [i]
12:44<Sacro>and welshdragon
12:44-!-welshdragon [] has joined #openttd
12:44*welshdragon considers proving a point, started doing so, but then decided against it
12:45*welshdragon hungers for food, and wanders off to make tea
12:45*eekee knows that feeling
12:45<Sacro>welshdragon: this is not #tycoon
12:45<Sacro>#openttd is serious business
12:45<welshdragon>Sacro, do shut up, i'd accept that from TrueBrain
12:45<welshdragon>but not you
12:45<@orudge>why the conflict all of a sudden?
12:46<@orudge>what is the issue?
12:46<Sacro>orudge: our IRQ's have matched :(
12:46*orudge may have missed something
12:46<@orudge>if you two have a personal conflict, please don't fight it out in here or on #tycoon
12:46<@orudge>ie, in public
12:46<TrueBrain>but walk a few houses and fight it out there or something
12:46<Sacro>ooh. my opensuse iso has downloaded
12:46<@orudge>Sacro: ah, it's been a while since I've had to deal with an IRQ conflict :)
12:46<Yeggstry>TrueBrain are you important here?
12:46<@orudge>Yeggstry: you're not Felipewhatsit, are you?
12:46*Sacro wonders if these floppies still work
12:46*orudge finds the appropriate qdb
12:46<Sacro>it imght have tt saves
12:47<TrueBrain>Yeggstry: no, just annoyed by the random people timing out lately :p
12:47<planetmaker>Yeggstry: as his nick tells: the only true brain out here :P
12:47<@orudge>TrueBrain: this is the part where you time out
12:47<@orudge>and it ends up being hilarious
12:47<planetmaker>all others are just clones :P
12:47<TrueBrain>Yeggstry: but I am glad there is someone on the other side :) Mostly it are just people idling here ...
12:47<TrueBrain>orudge: I agree ;)
12:47<Yeggstry>that and the fact that you set my highlight off :P
12:48<Yeggstry>for your information, I believe Virgin Media was playing up this morning, and I just had to reboot my machine twice coz my mic is playing up (uninstall then reinstall of drivers)
12:48<TrueBrain>:) Then it is okay ;)
12:48<Yeggstry>I'm not a spam bot if that's what you're worried about :P
12:49<Sacro>hmm, only have TTO discs 2 and 4
12:49<TrueBrain>Yeggstry: I was ;)
12:49-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14324 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#2241]: free any blocks that a helicopter may have on an oilrig when the helicopter gets forcefully removed (bankruptcy). For other airports this isn't needed as they can't be used by multiple companies.
12:50-!-Fuco [dota.keys@] has joined #openttd
12:50<@orudge>there it was
12:51<TrueBrain>tt-forums has its own qdb? Lol :)
12:51<@orudge>although there are a few #openttd quotes there, too
12:55-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*Yorick@*] by peter1138
12:56-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
12:56-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*Yorick@*] by TrueBrain
12:56<@TrueBrain>he just pissed me off in a PM :p
12:56-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
12:57<Brianetta>We live in the rabbit-fornicating Britonic island of sodomy?
12:57<@orudge>according to a certain Dutchman
12:57<Brianetta>Ah yes. His voice, your face.
12:57<welshdragon>orudge, i have seen a few #openttd quotes in there
12:58<welshdragon>(the qdb)
12:58<Brianetta>As long as there aren't any #openttdcoop ones...
12:58<Brianetta>"look at BBH1"
12:58<Brianetta>"I'm QDBing that"
12:58<TrueBrain>lol @ peter1138
12:58<TrueBrain>lucky enough glx isn't here
12:58-!-Frostregen [] has joined #openttd
12:58<TrueBrain>talking about which .. where IS glx?
13:00<@orudge>an e-mail from Darkvater
13:00<@orudge>how interesting
13:00<TrueBrain>and does he have anything interesting to say? :p
13:00<@orudge>one moment
13:00<@orudge>let me download what he linked to and see if it is interesting :p
13:01<TrueBrain>A VIRUS!
13:01<@orudge>hopefully not ;)
13:01<ln>"please have a look at this interesting exe file"
13:02<planetmaker>ln: :P in my on re-boot always clean virtual box it wouldn't do much harm unless it knows how to break out of vmware :)
13:04<@orudge>TrueBrain (and anyone else interested):
13:04<@orudge>is what he sent me
13:04<@orudge>not finished watching it yet, but it seems interested enough
13:04<@Rubidium>ah, he did actually succeed in fixing the tool to properly parse our updated repository :)
13:05<TrueBrain>I like the background sound ;)
13:06<TrueBrain>very cool :)
13:06-!-Prof_Frink [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:06*orudge shall stick a link on tt-forums
13:06-!-Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
13:07<@orudge>and an flv version for those too lazy to download the avi
13:07-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
13:07<@orudge>hmm, newhouses was September 2006
13:07<@orudge>seems ages away
13:08<TrueBrain>for me the reverse .. I was suprised newmap was SO long ago ..
13:08<@peter1138>orudge, it was in a branch for a long time, I think.
13:09<TrueBrain>orudge: very cool :)
13:09<Zuu>TrueBrain: The changes.log file seam to not be included in nightly releases anymore (r14300 is the last version mentioned in the changes.log I got from 12:th september)
13:10<Zuu>I've downloaded r14316 win32 .zip to confirm that the file changes.log is no more included.
13:10<TrueBrain>Zuu: it indeed is no longer in the compressed archives, if that is what you mean
13:10<Zuu>Yes that is what I mean.
13:11<TrueBrain>that is because we completely switched to 'make bundle', which does not include the file
13:11<TrueBrain>was it useful, to have that file included?
13:11<Zuu>My tool use that file to display the changes form last update.
13:12<TrueBrain>it is on the web
13:12<TrueBrain>in the dir of the files, /changelog.txt
13:12<TrueBrain>Rubidium: should it be included in the packages?
13:14-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:14-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*Yorick@*] by TrueBrain
13:14-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:15<@Rubidium>adding changes.log (as we already have a changelog.txt) seems to make stuff more inconsistent
13:15<Zuu>but changelog.txt is for last stable.
13:15<@Rubidium>fetching the correct changelog.txt from the server should be fairly easy
13:16<Yeggstry>apologies in advance TrueBrain, I have to reboot again :P
13:16<TrueBrain>Yeggstry: you are forgiven ;)
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13:16<Zuu>Fetching the changelog.txt from the server means that I need to change my client/server protocol and also make a new client release for 2.0.
13:17<Zuu>Just puting out a new client takes 1-2 hours.
13:18<@Rubidium>but it'll make the releases and nightlies/whatever work *exactly* the same
13:18<@Rubidium>thus less code, less maintainance, etc.
13:18<Zuu>You are talking from your point of view are you?
13:18<@Rubidium>also from your POV
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13:19<TrueBrain>wb Yeggstry
13:19<Zuu>All nightlies/whatever included changes.txt before, didn't they?
13:19<Yeggstry>ty :)
13:19<@Rubidium>only nightlies and IIRC not all of them
13:20<Zuu>noai had it.
13:20<@Rubidium>so custom compiles/releases didn't contain them
13:20<TrueBrain>Zuu: changes.log was added manual by me, for certain packages only
13:20<TrueBrain>was more something that wasn't removed a long time ago ;)
13:21<TrueBrain>('manual' as in: I bypassed the default system .. I bypasses even 'make bundle' ;))
13:22<Zuu>I hope you understand that at the moment I don't like it as it puts quite lot of work for me...
13:22-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
13:23<Zuu>But yea I understand it's not my decision...
13:23<TrueBrain>more a problem that I have no clue how to insert changes.log in the current situation :)
13:23<@Rubidium>nobody likes it when they need to change they progs when someone changed something
13:23<TrueBrain>(well, without hacking it again :p)
13:24<TrueBrain>Zuu: on the positive side, that shouldn't happen again, as now we follow the 'official' way ;)
13:24<@Rubidium>however... now everything (that includes releases and custom builds) are done in exactly the same way instead of 3 different ways
13:24<Zuu>As long as the official way remains the same ;)
13:25<@Rubidium>which means that supporting releases/custom builds/nightlies needs much less code (thus less maintainance)
13:25<@Rubidium>though you have a little more work at the beginning
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13:28<Kasceh>Is it possible to remove a company?
13:28<Kasceh>with a command
13:29<Zuu>My server part was built up around the old system where you get the version, a string, and then you using this string can compare it to the string the client send and generate download URL from it, without having the result from the rev-file/finger, now things have changed so at the moment it need to make two requests to finger which is not good, as the round trip time adds to the computation time. With the old structure, addi
13:29<Zuu>ng a function to get the changes.log URL means one more round trip time. So you see, I really need to choose an whole different approach which I know will take time...
13:29<Zuu>A hack to solve it would be to change GetFile to cache the result to disk, which might be good to improve the preformance anyway.
13:29<Kasceh>Lol thanks for wiping out my question...
13:29<Kasceh>Is it possible to remove a company?
13:29<Kasceh>with a command
13:30<TrueBrain>Zuu: the script Rubidium created for you, does the caching .. well, sort of :)
13:30<TrueBrain>but even the website caches the file for 5 minutes, to avoid unneeded calls
13:30<Ammler>Kasceh: (reset_company)
13:31<Zuu>TrueBrain: Yes, but when added to my structure I call that function and extract only one field an return it and discard the other part. (and I have two functions that takes each part from it) And this is because how the structure is, which worked fine with rev-files but not with finger.
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13:33<Zuu>TrueBrain: By the way call_user_func("", ... ) how bad is it to use? I assume it might be slow but is it /kick slow or just a little slower than function pointers?
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13:34<TrueBrain>in PHP? Iguess it doersnt matter
13:35-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:36<Eddi|zuHause><Sacro> If ANY of the checksums don't match <- for the record, that feels much more wrong than "doesn't"
13:37<SpComb>Zuu: heh, "just a little slower"
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>but you british people don't know grammar anyway :p
13:37<Brianetta>Eddi: We know our own.
13:37<Zuu>TrueBrain: In Php yes. Cool, though it was a deadly sin to use it.
13:38<TrueBrain>I am not a PHP guru, but I used it a lot in my time ... never had any problems with it :p
13:38<@Rubidium>SpComb: would it make sense to stop some of the < 0.6.1 servers?
13:38<TrueBrain>lol @ Eddi|zuHause :)
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13:38<hylje>php is OK so long it's not forced on the poor folks
13:38<Brianetta>PHP is an ugly, ugly language
13:39<murray>BUT it has its advantages
13:39<TrueBrain>one of the reasons the new website is not in PHP ;)
13:39<@Rubidium>PHP has it's uses, but quite some uses of PHP are well... insane
13:39<Zuu>Ok, I used it heavily because I wanted to have one place where I define the targets, which methods to use, and not have to change in switch-case structures all over the place. But I now realize how that could be done with switch-case instead of call_user_func.
13:39<murray>that's because it's easy to misuse for people with no clue
13:40<murray>however, compare it to, and you'll love php ;)
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13:40<TrueBrain> .. lol
13:40<TrueBrain>on error resume next
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13:40<TrueBrain>I love that statement :)
13:40<hylje>php is convenient, just drop the sources to htdocs
13:41*yorick thanks TrueBrain, hugs
13:41<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: you know where .net stands for, right? The Frisian "het kan net".
13:41<hylje>configuration? wutssat?
13:41<TrueBrain>Rubidium: lol
13:41<TrueBrain>hylje: well, that argument holds now, but when PHP was created, CGI was the same .. still PHP won :) So there is more to it then just that ;)
13:42<TrueBrain>but yeah, PHP is nice, just it kills your server :p
13:42<hylje>well PHP /was/ cgi
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r14325 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt english_US.txt galician.txt german.txt swedish.txt):
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-09-14 17:42:18
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 2 fixed, 31 changed by Hadez (33)
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 211 fixed by WhiteRabbit (211)
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: galician - 193 fixed, 10 changed by Condex (203)
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 2 fixed, 38 changed by sulai (40)
13:42<@orudge>still is, or can be
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: swedish - 60 fixed by ChrillDeVille (60)
13:43<TrueBrain>hylje: fair enough, I ment it in comparsing to Perl CGI :)
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13:43<TrueBrain>and stuff like SSI
13:43*orudge remembers non-.NET ASP
13:43<Kasceh>If a train slows down alot when it gets to a hill, is that a setting or is that just a horsepower issue?
13:43<hylje>thing is PHP is a template language that embeds application logic
13:43<@orudge>You could run Perl as an language in ASP, though
13:44<hylje>the other CGI stuff at the time was applications embedding templates
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13:44<@orudge>as well as the likes of VBScript and JavaScript
13:44<TrueBrain>hylje: true
13:44<TrueBrain>but I think PHP has gained so much momentum, because it is so easy to use, in so many way .. not minding the speed of anything, it just does what you tell it to
13:44<TrueBrain>most of the time :p
13:45<Kasceh>hello? :<
13:45<TrueBrain>neverthelss, it is a crappy language that should be removed from the wegb :p
13:45<@orudge>indeed, for all its faults, PHP can be a very useful language, very quick and easy to use, and extremely powerful
13:45<@orudge>sure, other languages can do the same
13:45<@orudge>and perhaps better
13:45<hylje>Kasceh: old acceleration works that way
13:45<hylje>Kasceh: you may want to use realistic
13:45<Kasceh>Thanks :p
13:45<TrueBrain>it is just a few months that I use python or bash over PHP to do quick scripts :p
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>where "realistic" is still a misnomer :p
13:46<SpComb>hmm, SVN
13:46*orudge has done some relatively wicked things with PHP in the new Repository
13:46<@orudge>which I still need to finish, hmm
13:46<TrueBrain>orudge: how is winecfg going?
13:46<@orudge>well, Summer of Code has finished
13:46<@orudge>the project as a whole went quite well
13:47<@orudge>I have a few more patches to submit
13:47<@orudge>but was distracted by an exam
13:47<@orudge>(which was since been and gone)
13:47<@orudge>however, tomorrow we start preparing everything for freshers week next week in the union
13:47<@orudge>so it will be rather busy :)
13:47<TrueBrain>but you got your stuff done, or?
13:47<@orudge>yes, I got everything I set out to do done
13:47<@orudge>and a few other bits and bobs, too
13:47<TrueBrain>cool :) Concratz :)
13:47<@orudge>I would still like to go back and tweak winecfg some more though (for the most part, I was creating new stuff, rather than changing the existing stuff)
13:48<@orudge>but now it has to compete with uni for time
13:48<TrueBrain>uni will win ;)
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13:49<yorick>r14324 does what it says not to :-P
13:50<yorick>(not that I mind at all)
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>hm... KTorrent 3 still has no RSS plugin...
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>that's kind of a killer feature...
13:52<hylje>automagical torrents?
13:52<yorick>where did the openttd devblog go?
13:52<TrueBrain>died in silence, a few weeks back
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>KTorrent 2 has it.
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>so i can't upgrade
13:52<yorick>uTorrent has :)
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>there are some things about µTorrent that i don't like...
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>being a windows program for example
13:54-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
13:54<TrueBrain>being created by ludde?
13:54<TrueBrain>(hehe, bad joke, I take that back :))
13:54<yorick>you don't have wine?
13:55<hylje>i've heard transmission is decent
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: having it doesn't mean liking it
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>ktorrent is decent, i only can't update from 2 to 3
13:56<SpComb>although gah, my flash player is broken, so I can't view the videos on
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13:57<Sacro>sigh, I wonder if pulseaudio will survive a reboot
13:59<yorick>what's this "half-a-high-office-building" doing on my temperate map
13:59<yorick>and why is it only half a high office building
14:01<yorick>and why does it not want to leave
14:08<welshdragon>yorick, demolish it?
14:08<yorick>then it asserts
14:08<yorick>and if I disable the assert, it doesn't leave
14:09<yorick>there are actually more heigh office buildings on the map
14:09<yorick>which makes me think some grf was removed
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14:19<nicfer>would be useful a second nightly, which would act like the MiniIN and other community-maintained patch packs?
14:20<Noldo>What good would it do? Who would maintain it?
14:21<yorick>those nightlies are called "trunk"
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14:24<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: the miniin was compiled like nightlies, but i don't see anyone around who would keep up the work needed
14:25<nicfer>yorick: except that trunk doesn't allow unfinished patches
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: which has a reason
14:25<hylje>with hg/git support trunk is only symbolic
14:26<nicfer>and that special nightly would be maintained by everyone that wants to contribute
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: the last time an unfinished patch was accepted into trunk was a big catastrophe!
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>(that was PBS)
14:27<nicfer>that's what the MiniIN was for
14:27<nicfer>testing of unfinished patches
14:27<Noldo>nicfer: that's not maintenance, that's just mess
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>no, the miniin was never ever a testing ground for patches
14:28<eekee>anyone can make their own *IN, can't they?
14:28<Noldo>eekee: sure
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>there are like 5 of those in the forum
14:28<nicfer>the trouble with *INs is that they get lost very quickly
14:29<nicfer>like the MiniIN
14:29<@Rubidium>nicfer: and you expect that an *IN being compiled doesn't go down the same path?
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>that is not going to be changed just because they have a branch in the svn
14:29<eekee>well so long as it lasts long enough for development of that one patch
14:30<@Rubidium>problem is that those multi-patch packs make it almost impossible to really test a single patch because of the integration issues between the patches
14:30<nicfer>why not instead do one that can be mantained by more than one person
14:30<nicfer>so if that one person gets busy by real life, other can pick up it and continue it on
14:30<@Rubidium>and fixes for patches get all lost in the big bad patch
14:30<@Rubidium>nicfer: done that, failed at that
14:31<@Rubidium>e.g. MiniIN
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: because they wouldn't
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: patch authors would stop improving their patch as soon as it gets in the supposedly "official" "testing" build
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>which means a certain death for both the patch and the build
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>the patch will never be finished, and the build will become unmaintainable
14:33<Noldo>nicfer: What good would it do?
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14:51<TrueBrain>peter1138: what are you counting?
14:52<yorick>is 0.6.3 to be released soon? ( I know it sounds stupid :-p, but I am the most curious/nosy person right after dih, according to Idon'tknowanymore(our developer whale?))
14:52<yorick>he was at 42GB yesterday
14:52<TrueBrain>peter1138: not how, 'what'
14:52-!-eekee [] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...]
14:53<TrueBrain>if you know it sounds stupid, why do you ask?
14:53<yorick>because I want to know
14:54<TrueBrain>well, I guess that requires the answer you always get: when it is done
14:54<yorick>it seems quite done now
14:54<yorick>that's why I ask
14:55<@peter1138>TrueBrain, recovering data from a broken disk drive...
14:55<dih>yorick: devs decide what 'done' looks like
14:55<TrueBrain>peter1138: ah ... is that so slowly?
14:55<yorick>my done looks like 100% of roadmap completed
14:55<@peter1138>It's pretty broken... :o
14:55<TrueBrain>peter1138: sucks :s
14:55<TrueBrain>yorick: then I am happy you are not a dev :)
14:55<@peter1138>TrueBrain, "But it's on a mirror!"
14:56<@peter1138>A mirror with 1 * 120GB and 1 * 20GB drive? I think not.
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15:26<ln>contemporary ideas of balcony decoration in helsinki:
15:28-!-mikl [] has joined #openttd
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15:31<TrueBrain>a sandwich with cheese, yes please
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15:32<Sacro>ln: i'd love to have a swastika up
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15:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14326 /trunk/src/ (bridge_gui.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Fix: some wrong comments (Yexo)
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15:46<Brianetta>Having stations be safe waiting places for PBS really dumbs down signalling.
15:47-!-ecke1 [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
15:47<Brianetta>If all your stations are termini, you can get away with only one signal on your entire network.
15:47<Brianetta>That's only there to activate PBS.
15:48-!-Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
15:48-!-ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:48<ln>Wolf01|AWAY: not interesting
15:49<yorick>say *|AWAY "<ln> $Nick: not interesting"
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16:10<reven>working on some graphics codes, anyone care to try on some questions i have?
16:10<reven>one in particular
16:10<yorick>don't ask to ask, just ask, anyone that could help might help
16:11<TrueBrain>yorick: I couldn't have said it better :)
16:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14327 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Fix [FS#2251]: if you rename a town before building something and build something near that town your company would be called "<old townname> Transport".
16:12<reven>im trying to make some changes in which zones the houses are built whithin the North american city renewal graphics...
16:12<reven>107 * 84 00 07 01 27 00 13 03 78 03 78 01 78 01 78 06 78 06 78 06 78 06 78 00 00 04 78 00 00 04 78 00 00
16:13<reven>this should be the right code but i dont understand what the values set mean
16:13<reven>what the hell is that?
16:14<@DorpsGek>yorick: base <fromBase> [<toBase>] <number>
16:14<yorick>@base 16 10 78
16:14<@DorpsGek>yorick: 120
16:15<yorick>that's decimal
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16:16<reven>was that to me?
16:16-!-Yexo [] has joined #openttd
16:16<Ammler>reven: check the ttdpatch wiki
16:17<reven>yeah i have read through it almost
16:17<reven>but the value 78 makes no sense
16:17<@Rubidium>what does nforenum think of that file?
16:17<reven>ill try again
16:19<@Rubidium>it doesn't look valid to me (and I haven't even coded a action 0 containing newgrf)
16:20<reven>whats nforenum?
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16:24<yorick>reven: the 78 should be somewhere like
16:25<reven>well the string is supposed to say: <Action 0> <houses> <one change per house> <39 houses to be changed> <GRFID 00> <property (13); Availability mask. (Which zone the houses are built in)> ....but then the rest does not make any sense to me
16:25<yorick>the 78 is the mask
16:25<reven>whats a mask?
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16:26<reven>03 is the zone i suppose
16:28<yorick>120 in binary
16:28<yorick>meh, no
16:28<@Rubidium>a mask of 7803 is invalid
16:29<@Rubidium>and the repetive 78s seem invalid to me too
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16:30<@Rubidium>and even when I disregard the 78s, it's still invalid
16:31<reven>what a piece of shit grf
16:31<reven>it works though
16:31<reven>its the NACity renewer
16:31<yorick>you decoded it?
16:32<yorick>nfo with comments usually works better
16:33<reven>i decoded it yes
16:33<reven>i didnt write anything htough
16:33*yorick thinks about the possibilities of open-source grfs
16:33<reven>wouldnt hurt
16:34<@Rubidium>but there are already open source newgrfs
16:34*yorick thinks about "NoGRFS"
16:34<yorick>NoAI with GRF :)
16:34<yorick>grfs in squirrel
16:37<reven>rubidum: do i have to write the whole string manually with this program?
16:37<reven>ctrl c didnt work
16:37<reven>the renum program
16:37<yorick>printscreen + OCR maybe ? :-p
16:38<@peter1138>"coding by OzTransLtd" heh
16:38<reven>doubt that
16:42<@peter1138>Rubidium, apart from the 78s, what's invalid?
16:43<@peter1138>In fact, including the 78s, what's invalid?
16:43<Tim>Lol, that video is sick :D
16:46<yorick>peter1138: including the 78s, for a start the 78s are invalid, I don't know about the others, for what I can read, the 03s too
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16:47<@peter1138>The 78s are perfectly valid.
16:48<@Rubidium>then I'm probably not understanding it properly
16:49<@Rubidium>isn't it property value property value?
16:49<@peter1138>Action 0, Feature 7, 1 property, 0x27 houses, starting at 0. Property 13 -- list of 0x27 words for property 13
16:51<@Rubidium>then it's still setting a lot of bits that aren't used
16:51<@peter1138>It's property value * num-ids property value * num-ids
16:51<@peter1138>Those bits are used.
16:52<@peter1138>Bits 0 to 4 and 11 to 15 all have meaning.
16:52<@Rubidium>yeah, but the set bits 8-10 aren't used
16:53<@peter1138>And they're not set, either.
16:53<@Rubidium>what's the 78 then?
16:53<reven>youre certain its not 39 properties, 27 in hex?
16:54<@peter1138>7800 is bits 11 to 14.
16:54<reven>oh right
16:54<@peter1138>reven: 0x27 == 39
16:54<reven>ah, ok tx peter
16:54<@Rubidium>hmm... why does endianness always make my brain fail?
16:54<@Rubidium>and WHY doesn't it work on nibbles!
16:55<reven>so its the climate availability the code is about not zone availability
16:56*Rubidium ponders silently ignoring further newgrf questions
16:56<reven>i was afraid of that
16:56<Sacro>Except mice and shrews
16:56<Sacro>and David Cowels.
16:56*TrueBrain gives Rubidium a true brain
16:56<reven>bits 11-14 is climate
16:56<reven>artic and subartic i think
16:56<reven>something like that
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16:58<@peter1138>reven:, it's both.
16:58<@peter1138>Lower 8 bits are town zone, upper 8 are climate.
16:59<reven>Is this gonna work? <spritenum> * <length> 00 07 01 27 00 13 <value1> <Value2> <Value3>....<Value 39>
17:00<reven>peter: oh right
17:00<reven>so the value is in 2 bytes then?
17:00<reven>thats why theres so many f.. bytes in that string
17:02<reven>theres more btw i didnt show the whole string
17:03<@peter1138>I prefer the word line to string.
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17:05<reven>Building availability mask (13)
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17:06<reven>bits: 0..4 value: 1,2,4,8,10 : which town zone(s) the building can be built in
17:07<reven>so if a house is to be built in zone 4 what does the byte look like?
17:07<reven>04 ?
17:07<@peter1138>Depends which bit represents this zone 4.
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17:08<@peter1138>Zone 4, Inner Suburb?
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17:08<@peter1138>That'll be bit 4, so a value of 8.
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17:08<reven>hex value 8?
17:08<reven>so 08?
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17:08<reven>what if its in zone 2, 3, and 4?
17:10<Mortal>wait... your company isn't named anything before you begin building?
17:10<Mortal>what are you called initially, then?
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17:10<@peter1138>Unnamed Transport, or somethign :p
17:10<Mortal>I haven't seen that
17:10<reven>jp morgan perhaps
17:11<Mortal>I haven't noticed anyway
17:11<@peter1138>reven: bits 1 + 2 + 3 = 2 + 4 + 8 = 14 = 0E
17:12<@peter1138>(It was the 4th bit earlier, so bit 3, not bit 4)
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17:13<Mortal>heh, good ol' hexadecimal maths
17:13<Mortal>bits 1 2 and 3 = 0b00001110 = 0x0E
17:13<Mortal>0b1111 = 0xF, subtract the first bit = 0xE
17:14<Mortal>I still say we should abandon digits 8 and 9 and teach octal maths to kids all the way from primary school
17:14<Mortal>or even preschool
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17:16<reven>tx peter
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17:16<reven>i think my retarded brain finally got it
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17:17<reven>dont hold your breath, i just mean . maybe
17:18<reven>i need a smoke
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18:24<reven>Dammit: Ive finished making my own ronny.nfo file and ronny.pcx by modifying the old "North american city renewal" (GRF)....
18:25<reven>but my encoding wizard says it cant find the nfo and pcx files. what gives?
18:25<reven>theyre there
18:25<reven>do i have to write a path somewhere?
18:29-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:29<reven>any grf coders here?
18:30<reven>When encoding, they will be available only if they are already decoded, and if the decoded NFO file(s) are located under a SPRITES subfolder under the main TTD folder. However you can add one GRF file from any folder as long as you also specify the location of its PCX and NFO files manually using the buttons for that purpose.
18:30<reven>what does this mean?
18:31<reven>whats a "a SPRITES subfolder under the main TTD folder. " ???
18:31<Ammler>those tools seems outdated, just use grfcodec and nforenum
18:31<reven>thas the tool i used
18:32<reven>its a wizard thats based on grfcodec
18:32<Ammler>I read something about wizard.
18:32<reven>i was told
18:32<reven>is it no good?
18:32<reven>whats a sprites subfolder in the main ttd folder?
18:32<reven>any idea?
18:33<Ammler>if you have a example.grf and decode it
18:33<Ammler>the files will be in ./sprites/ as example.nfo and example.pcx
18:33<Ammler>then you can just encode the grf again and it takes those 2 files.
18:35<reven>im trying to make a ronny.grf file. both the ronny.nfo file and ronny.pcx file is located in the same folder ...openttd/data/ronny.grf/nfo/pcx
18:36<reven>but the wizard ma...
18:36<reven>oh wait
18:36<reven>ill try that
18:36<Ammler>well, if you use the wizard, I can't help...
18:36<Ammler>the wizard's job.
18:37<reven>you were right
18:37<reven>tx a million ammler
18:37<reven>i just had to make a sprites subfolder for some reason
18:44<Sacro>why do you now include openttd.desktop in make install
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18:46<Ammler>Sacro: never thought there are people using install :-)
18:46<Sacro>Ammler: yes
18:47<Sacro>my PKGBUILD uses make DESTDIR=$startdir/pkg install
18:47<Ammler>and you don't want a desktop symbol?
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18:48<Sacro>I do
18:48<Sacro>but I have openttd.desktop openttd-svn.desktop and openttd-beta.desktop
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18:53<Ammler>Sacro: that is, why I don't install them...
19:06<nicfer>would be cool to be able to create slopes without track, roads and those things
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19:09<nicfer>oh, and why no one caught this idea: exclusive vehicles for each player
19:09<nicfer>mp only
19:12<nicfer>so, player 1 gets a 160km/h electric engine while player 2 can get a 200km/h dmu
19:13<welshdragon>nicfer, as it's unfair
19:13<welshdragon>you'd want a game to be as fair as possible
19:13<nicfer>but the dmu could have less horse power
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19:17<nicfer>now one idea for simplifying server creation in OTTD: when you make a single player game, there could be a check 'Create an Internet server?', if you check it, a new window will open to configure the server
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19:17<nicfer>that's for win
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19:18<SmatZ>nicfer: we have enough internet servers, we lack players
19:20<SmatZ>OTTD players enjoy playing singleplayer... (comparing number of OTTD downloads -over 100 000- / number of online players -over 100-)
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19:26<Sacro>SmatZ: over 9000?
19:32<nicfer>What 9000!!
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19:59<ccfreak2k>Who knows.
19:59<ccfreak2k>Maybe your target demographic is autistic. :)
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20:03<TrueBrain>[01:20] <SmatZ> OTTD players enjoy playing singleplayer... (comparing number of OTTD downloads -over 100 000- / number of online players -over 100-) <- your compare is a bit .. off :)
20:03<TrueBrain>those 100,000 downloads are over a long period of time .. those 100 players are CONSTANT players
20:03<TrueBrain>which I hope are not the same players all the time ... ;)
20:04<TrueBrain>but still .. I estimate about 10% of the users play MP :) (which is not a lot ;))
20:04*welshdragon enjoys multiolayer
20:05<welshdragon>i get shown my mistakes
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20:53<DaleStan>TrueBrain: is answering requests on port 80 with a RST/ACK.
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21:21<Eddi|zuHause>"I am currently trying to code [subways]. [...] So far I made pictures of the underground stations." <- that's certainly promising :p
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21:50<ccfreak2k>It's good to know that, in the year 2050, it MIGHT be possible to have something underground.
21:59<NullAshton>Just expensive though...
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22:09<nightzinn>4all :)
22:10<nightzinn>can someone remove my doubt ?
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22:22<nightzinn>what i need do to buy actions from a player ?
22:22<nightzinn>please i need help
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22:22<Yexo>actions? you mean shares?
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 15 00:00:24 2008