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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-09-21

---Logopened Sun Sep 21 00:00:40 2008
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04:33<yorick:#openttd>the console needs linebreaks
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04:37-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
04:37<@Celestar:#openttd>morning
04:37<yorick:#openttd>morning
04:40-!-[com]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has joined #openttd
04:40<Tekky:#openttd>hi :)
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04:40<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>the console needs a lot of things..
04:41<yorick:#openttd>the console needs python!
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04:41<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: like what?
04:42<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>10:33] <yorick> the console needs linebreaks
04:42<Tekky:#openttd>signals need python, too :) I want programmable signals :)
04:42<@Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: I've tried moving things around so that I don't need to include <map> in cargopacket.h but it doesn't change the compile time. This is basically due to the fact that we already have <list> included in cargopacket.h, and there's no way around that.
04:42<@Celestar:#openttd>Tekky: I don't agree :P
04:42<yorick:#openttd>Tekky: that's harder than the console
04:42<yorick:#openttd>I do
04:42<@Celestar:#openttd>what does one need programmable signals for?
04:43<Tekky:#openttd>priority lines, for example.
04:43<yorick:#openttd>for having signals that are programmable
04:43<Tekky:#openttd>in order to give a certain line priority over another line.
04:43<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>waypoints on tile edges, custom pathfinder penalties based on orders and waypoints
04:43<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>programmable signals are useless
04:44<Tekky:#openttd>however, programmable signals are more meaningful with non-YAPP signals.
04:45<Tekky:#openttd>with YAPP, the signal state (whether it is green or red) is irrelevant. So programmable YAPP signals would have to work with reservation states as variables instead of signal states.
04:45<Tekky:#openttd>which would be harder to implement.
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04:46<@Celestar:#openttd>first thing we need imho is a proper reservation of the braking distance.
04:47<@Celestar:#openttd>so that the train would NEVER come to an abrupt halt.
04:47<@Celestar:#openttd>_never_
04:47<yorick:#openttd>Celestar: I recommend you to put "Celestar" into your signature so you don't have to put it under each of your posts manually ;)
04:47<@Celestar:#openttd>yorick: heh. It's just a habit :P
04:48<yorick:#openttd>sometimes your name is longer than the post itself
04:48<@Celestar:#openttd>yeah
04:48<@Celestar:#openttd>:P
04:49<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>gnah, i need to pay better attention what the nick actually is, not just its colour... else i start attributing sentences to wrong persons...
04:49<Tekky:#openttd>currently, the only way to implement priority lines is this way, which is an ugly hack: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Advanced_Main_Line_Depot
04:49*Celestar:#openttd wonders why priority lines are needed.
04:50<@Celestar:#openttd>if the line is really busy, I just separate: long distance pax trains, regional pax trains, freight trains.
04:50<@Celestar:#openttd>and then use waypoints
04:50<Tekky:#openttd>Celestar: Yes, I agree that a train should always reserve inside its braking distance.
04:51<Tekky:#openttd>Celestar: I think that is also the way trains behave in locomotion.
04:51<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>enforcing braking distance will at least all the 2-tile-signal layouts :p
04:51<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>*break
04:51<Tekky:#openttd>yep, that's certainly a good thing :)
04:51<Tekky:#openttd>but I don't understand why it should break them?
04:52<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, at least render them useless
04:53<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: they would still work, but trains could no longer get closer than braking distance + skid distance + safety distance :-)
04:54<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: then again, from 1980 on, we could have signal-less trunk routes like IRL (=
04:54<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, if you siply put signals that close, it would enforce a slow maximum speed on the line
04:54<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: reservation would span multiple signals then (=
04:54<Alberth:#openttd>Yellow signals!
04:55<@Celestar:#openttd>Alberth: they would be possible then as well
04:55<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i tried to make yapp-combo signals, but i got in trouble with adding the third signal state
04:55<@Celestar:#openttd>green = can pass this and next signal, yellow = can pass this signal but not next, red = cannot pass this signal.
04:56<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>exactly
04:56<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: like Ks ;)
04:56<Tekky:#openttd>I think signals should show yellow only for graphical feedback, but a yellow signal should have no effect on gameplay. I have stated my reasons for this in this forum post: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=720327#p720327
04:56<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i could either make signals red/green (normal) or i could make them yellow/green (advance), but not red/yellow/green (combo)
04:57<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: apparently, Erfurt-Leipzig will be Germany's first track without signals (=
04:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Tekky: well, the main advantage of yellow signals is that fast trains (almost) automatically adjust to the slower speed of the train ahead, and don't come to a full stop at every signal
04:59<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>which actually increases the capacity of a mixed line
04:59<@Celestar:#openttd>Tekky: I'm not suggesting adding an advance-signal-type. I suggest making the normal signals real combo signals (normal + advance). Like they are these days.
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04:59<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, there might be situations where you do NOT want combo signals
05:00<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>like at an entrance to a single track section
05:00<@Celestar:#openttd>yeah, but we can think about those later (=
05:00<Tekky:#openttd>Celestar: Are you proposing that the trains actually react to yellow signals or that they are merely graphical feedback for the player, showing that the train will pass the signal with reduced speed? The latter is the behavior of Locomotion.
05:00<@Celestar:#openttd>Tekky: I rather suggest the Lomo way.
05:01<@Celestar:#openttd>Tekky: because signalling is basically the only thing that Lomo got right :-P
05:01<Tekky:#openttd>hehe
05:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, "reduce speed" IS an effect on gameplay
05:01<Tekky:#openttd>yes, but this speed reduction is caused by the red signal and NOT by the yellow signal in Locomotion. The yellow signal is only graphical feedback for the player.
05:02<Tekky:#openttd>i.e. it is caused by approaching a red signal and NOT by passing a yellow signal.
05:02<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i can't imagine how you would properly enforce that
05:02<Tekky:#openttd>the same way as in Locomotion :)
05:04<Tekky:#openttd>I think Locomotion shows signals as yellow also if the train is about to brake for the next red signal, even if the train does not go with reduced speed when approaching the signal.
05:04<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: the question is, if yellow signals slow down the train, how can we set the speed limit?
05:04<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>to phrase this clearly: you would a) need every train to keep track about how many tiles it has reserved ahead, b) try to reserve ahead when this number of tiles goes below x, c) check if there are any signals on this path
05:04<@Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain: could you please rerun the compile farm on cargodest, thanks.
05:05<Tekky:#openttd>the speed limit should always be according to the distance to the next red signal and be independent of whether a yellow signal is passed.
05:05<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i don't like this approach
05:05<@Celestar:#openttd>heh. maybe we could just set the speed limit according to the distance between two signals (=
05:06<@Celestar:#openttd>so that a train is able to stop between two signals P and Q.
05:06<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>exactly. or it must be specifically ordered to reserve X signals ahead
05:06<@Celestar:#openttd>I don't think it is feasible to have the train look ahead more than 2 signals.
05:07<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>why? it's just running the PBS reservation routine several times...
05:07<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: and slows things down?
05:07<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>not anymore than now. because once the track is reserved, nothing has to be done
05:08<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>and each time a signal is passed, another reservation round is done
05:08<Tekky:#openttd>Eddi: So you prefer to force the player to put a distant signal ("Vorsignal") in front of every red signal at braking distance? And if the player doesn't do that and has a long piece of track without signals, the train will be reduced to half speed on the entire piece of track?
05:08<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>which is exactly the same work as now
05:08<@Celestar:#openttd>we need to draw this up methinks
05:08<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Tekky: yes. exactly (possibly a difficulty setting)
05:09<frosch123:#openttd>You could also always reserve the track for two signals, so the first signal would behave as presignal
05:09<@Celestar:#openttd>frosch123: not presignal. advance signal (=
05:10<frosch123:#openttd>yes, advance :)
05:10<@Celestar:#openttd>let's abolish all non-YAPP signals and work with LZB/ETCS right away?
05:10<frosch123:#openttd>so when a train passes a signal it starts breaking so it could halt in front of the second signal, when passing the next signal it might accelerate again
05:10<Tekky:#openttd>Eddi: hmmmm, I'm afraid this will clutter the display too much, if you are forced to place double as many signals......
05:11<Tekky:#openttd>well, another question: Should several smaller trains be allowed to form a queue in the same signal block?
05:11<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i had this preliminary study about advance signals together with michi_cc: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/advance3.diff
05:11<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>advance signals work (without realistic deceleration)
05:11<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but combo signals don't
05:11<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>they need a third signal state
05:12<@Celestar:#openttd>why have signals! :P
05:12<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Celestar: let trains pass through each other!
05:13<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: no.
05:13<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: use a modern system. ETCS (=
05:13<Tekky:#openttd>Celestar: Well, you still need a possibility to mark safe waiting locations. But this could be a property of the track, not of signals....
05:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, they are still technically signals, only they are more advanced
05:13<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: no. as I said. Nuremburg-Leipzig will not have signals.
05:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Tekky: signals are a property of the track
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05:14<@peter1138:#openttd>Celestar, what do you mean by "Oops", regarding the savegame problem?
05:14<@Celestar:#openttd>peter1138: I messed it up a little
05:14<@Celestar:#openttd>peter1138: but I have repaired it meanwhile
05:14<insulfrog:#openttd>hi
05:14<@Celestar:#openttd>\o insulfrog
05:15<@Celestar:#openttd>hi peter1138 (=
05:15<@peter1138:#openttd>Didn't I say it was messed up a week or so ago?
05:15<@Celestar:#openttd>peter1138: yes. but then I went on a business trip and had no internet access
05:16<@Celestar:#openttd>at least not in my off-hours
05:16<Tekky:#openttd>by the way, does Mercurial offer a possibility to extract only the latest revision instead of the entire repository, such as the SVN checkout command? The hg clone command copies the entire repository and not only the latest revision.
05:16-!-Volley [~worf@84-119-46-6.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #openttd
05:16<@peter1138:#openttd>date: Sun Sep 07 08:48:19 2008 +0100
05:16<@peter1138:#openttd>summary: Fix savegame compatibility with trunk
05:16<@peter1138:#openttd> :o
05:16*Celestar:#openttd doesn't understand Deutsche Bahn
05:16<@peter1138:#openttd>(But you didn't want it, so it's no "Oops" really, is it?)
05:17<@Celestar:#openttd>peter1138: now that most of the testing in cargodest is done, I see no reason to be able to load older cargodest savegames. So now we're savegame-compatible with trunk.
05:18<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: why does the DB build a track for 300km/h, install catenary for 330km/h only to use the track with 250km/h later on?
05:18<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Celestar: i assume you are not the only person with that problem
05:20<@Celestar:#openttd>What's so difficult with just rating and using all the high-speed sections with 300km/h and finally provide customers with reasonable journey times :S
05:22<Tekky:#openttd>if you get rid of all signals, then you must be able to place 3 types of track:
05:22<Tekky:#openttd>1. track that is safe for trains to wait on, if they are facing in one direction
05:22<Tekky:#openttd>2. track that is safe for trains to wait on, if they are facing the other direction
05:22<Tekky:#openttd>3. track that trains may not wait on, such as junctions
05:23<@Celestar:#openttd>Tekky: I wasn't 100% serious about getting rid of ALL signals (=
05:23<@peter1138:#openttd>Celestar, you missed the CONDNULL in vehicle.cpp
05:24<Tekky:#openttd>Celestar: Well, if you had been serious, it would have been an interesting suggestion :)
05:24<@Celestar:#openttd>peter1138: what did I miss there? :o
05:26<@Celestar:#openttd>Tekky: well what would be possible is this: Have the two YAPP signal types plus a "yapp block safe waiting point" signal (=
05:26<@Celestar:#openttd>oh it should be 100, right?
05:27<Tekky:#openttd>Celestar: what do you mean with "block safe"?
05:27<@Celestar:#openttd>Tekky: basically a signal that marks a safe waiting point.
05:27<@Celestar:#openttd>then again, any signal does mark a save waiting point ..
05:27<Tekky:#openttd>Celestar: Ah, the "safe" refers to "waiting point" and not to "block" :)
05:27<@Celestar:#openttd>yes
05:28<@Celestar:#openttd>but what we could use is a one-way marker for tracks (=
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05:29<Tekky:#openttd>ah, yes.... I forgot about that :)
05:31<@Celestar:#openttd>so we'd need two signal types: one that signals the entry into a YAPP block, and one that signals the entry into an LZB block.
05:31<@peter1138:#openttd>102 -> 100
05:32<Tekky:#openttd>however, defining whether a track is safe for waiting, instead of defining this property for signals, has the advantage that waiting locations could be only declared safe for trains up to a certain length. For example, a signal that is placed 8 tiles behind a junction is only safe for trains up to a length of 16 carriages (=8 tiles).
05:32<@Celestar:#openttd>difference between YAPP block and LZB block being: when entering a YAPP block, the train must be able to go to a SWP, when entering a LZB block, this is not needed.
05:32<@Celestar:#openttd>peter1138: yeah. I realized. thanks.
05:32<@Celestar:#openttd>Tekky: that is a good point
05:33<Tekky:#openttd>The LZB signalling system also requires safe waiting locations? Deadlocks can also occur with LZB.....
05:34<Tekky:#openttd>unless you define an LZB block as a one-way piece of track with no switches.
05:34<@Celestar:#openttd>Tekky: for me an LZB block is a one-way piece of track with no joining switches.
05:34<@Celestar:#openttd>separating switches would be possible.
05:35<@Celestar:#openttd>but that's the users problem (=
05:37<Ammler:#openttd>me is wondering, if Celestar already asked for binaries?
05:39<@Celestar:#openttd>yes
05:39<@Celestar:#openttd>me->shower();
05:42<Tekky:#openttd>error C2039: 'shower' : is not a member of 'me'
05:43<yorick:#openttd>error: can't execute errors
05:45<Tekky:#openttd>in an LZB block, trains are allowed to queue up directly next to each other, aren't they?
05:45<Tekky:#openttd>I mean directly after each other?
05:52<FauxFaux:#openttd>21/10:51:58 < FauxFaux> << me->shower();
05:52<FauxFaux:#openttd>21/10:51:58 < geordi> error: 'me' was not declared in this scope
05:53<Ammler:#openttd>Celestar: is the compiling already sheduled?
05:53<Ammler:#openttd>(just asking, if we need to compile them self ;-)
05:55<Tekky:#openttd>I didn't know that Cargodest had its own compile farm. Where can the binary be obtained?
05:56<@Rubidium:#openttd>www.openttd.org/download-cargodest
05:58<Ammler:#openttd>Rubidium: that is an old build
05:58<@Rubidium:#openttd>it's the most recent build
05:58<Ammler:#openttd>yes, but old :P
05:59<Ammler:#openttd>well, we build it self and wait for it...
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06:02<Tekky:#openttd>Rubidium: thx
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06:10<fjb:#openttd>Hello
06:12<@Celestar:#openttd>Tekky: yes they may queue up directly behind one another, plus a certain safety distance (maybe one tile?)
06:12<@Celestar:#openttd>Ammler: not that I know of
06:14<Tekky:#openttd>why does the OpenTTD webpage redirect http://www.openttd.org/* to http://www.openttd.org//en/*? What is the point of the double slash?
06:16*Alberth:#openttd wonders 'How did I ever manage to play OpenTTD without cargodest?' Totally hoplesssly hooked :P
06:16<Alberth:#openttd>s/hoplessly/hopelessly/
06:16<Forked:#openttd>it's a really nice feature
06:17<Forked:#openttd>one can't really thank Celestar and peter enough for it
06:17<@peter1138:#openttd>Then add shared infrastructure...
06:18<Tekky:#openttd>Alberth: I mainly played OpenTTD with non-passenger cargo, that's how I managed without cargodest for three years :)
06:18<Alberth:#openttd>Completely flat land (512x256), put some towns on it. Task: Connect all towns. Brilliant game play!!
06:19<Alberth:#openttd>Tekky: Yeh, I did that too. Passengers without explicit destinations is just not fun enough
06:21<@Celestar:#openttd>methinks we should merge :>
06:21<Alberth:#openttd>+1 !
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06:23*Alberth:#openttd uses cargodest branch as 'trunk' :P
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06:25*peter1138:#openttd ponders doing a code review.
06:27<@Celestar:#openttd>peter1138: feel free.
06:28<@Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: but the todo isn't done yet
06:28<@Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: not sure want want to do the todo (=
06:33<@Rubidium:#openttd>peter1138: could you translate Celestar's English in something I can understand, like simple English?
06:33<@Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: not sure we want to do the todo (=
06:33<@Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: and you might want to take another look at the review I did a few days ago because I didn't see much feedback on that (in the code)
06:34<@peter1138:#openttd>Where is that?
06:34<@Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: I was on the road, I'm working on some of the stuff (=
06:35<@Rubidium:#openttd>then why do you state that you want to merge?
06:35<@Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: because I _want_ to :P
06:35<@Celestar:#openttd>not that I'm doing it (=
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06:41<ccfreak2k:#openttd>It would be nice if you could look at a passenger station and see what the "demand" is for passengers to go to some particular town.
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06:47-!-mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
06:48<@Celestar:#openttd>\o Belugas
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06:49<Tekky:#openttd>KUDr is back?
06:49<Tekky:#openttd>the author of YAPF?
06:49<@Celestar:#openttd>aye
06:49<yorick:#openttd>aya
06:49<@Celestar:#openttd>and our C++ guru :D
06:50<yorick:#openttd>and our C++ guru :)
06:50*yorick:#openttd hides
06:50<Tekky:#openttd>hi KUDr, haven't seen you for about 9 months :)
06:50<guru3:#openttd>yarrrrr
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06:50*guru3:#openttd got highlighted
06:51<Tekky:#openttd>KUDr: are you aware that PBS is now implemented in OpenTTD, thanks to your YAPF implementation? :)
06:52<@Rubidium:#openttd>Tekky: really thanks too? It does work on more than only YAPF
06:52<Tekky:#openttd>YAPP also works with NPF?
06:52<@Celestar:#openttd>apparently ...
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06:53<Tekky:#openttd>oh, I thought the main reason for implementing YAPF was in order to enable proper PBS support?
06:53<@Rubidium:#openttd>Tekky: YAPF, NPF and OTP
06:54<Tekky:#openttd>I remember KUDr writing that YAPF was a necessary prerequisite for making a proper PBS implementation.
06:55<yorick:#openttd>OTP is gone..NTP is left
06:59<Tekky:#openttd>I wonder what KUDr had in mind when he made that statement. Maybe he had a PBS implementation in mind that didn't make path reservations on the basis of individual track pieces, but rather whole segments of track....
07:03<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd><Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: why does the DB build a track for 300km/h, install catenary for 330km/h only to use the track with 250km/h later on? <- one problem with mixing freight and high speed trains is that total line capacity depends on difference between fastest and slowest speed, so by reducing the max speed, you get higher capacity for the low speed trains
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07:08<@peter1138:#openttd>Not many desyncs in that game...
07:08<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: putting freight trains on a high-speed track is idiotic by design.
07:08<@Celestar:#openttd>peter1138: in what game?
07:09<roboboy:#openttd>yeah
07:09<@Celestar:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: it lowers the capacity, it poses serious design restrictions, it wears the tracks and lowers the comfort for passengers.
07:09<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i have no idea why they do that either, the existing tracks don't disappear
07:11<ln-:#openttd>people, you live in the wrong country if you need to complain about 250 km/h
07:11<Forked:#openttd>or rather.. in the right one
07:11<hylje:#openttd>yay for high speed being 140km/h
07:12<@Celestar:#openttd>ln-: I don't. if we would be able to actually go 250km/h from A to B.
07:12<@Celestar:#openttd>ln-: and not on 20% of the distance from A to B, and the other 80% are 100km/h or below
07:12<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>the last train i used went 90km/h on the part that i witnessed
07:13<@Celestar:#openttd>bbl food
07:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but it was a local train, with lots of intermediate stops ;)
07:13<@peter1138:#openttd>Celestar: 0.6.2 game on Brianetta's server.
07:14<@peter1138:#openttd>With a low RV limit, and no waypoints...
07:14<Brianetta:#openttd>(:
07:14<@peter1138:#openttd>I think welshdragon still desynced though...
07:14<ln-:#openttd>our high speed bullet trains do not even qualify as high speed trains, the max speed being 220 km/h. (which they don't even achieve almost ever, in practice.)
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07:15<hylje:#openttd>they do get up to 200km/h in some routes
07:15<hylje:#openttd>namely Hki-Tre, Hki-Lahti
07:17<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you have only trees and lakes, where would you want to go at these speeds anyway?
07:17<ln-:#openttd>but not the whole route, and in any case schedules are made for slower speeds so they'll just wait on the next station if they happen to go fast.
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07:17<hylje:#openttd>pendolinos go tikkurila-tampere without stops. total stops between helsinki and tampere is two
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07:18<hylje:#openttd>but granted they'll just go slower if schedule says so
07:18<hylje:#openttd>'ts fun in the commuter trains
07:18<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar: started, takes about 25 minutes
07:19<ln-:#openttd>we shouldn't also forget that they regularly stop at arbitrary points of the track when the pendolino breaks down.
07:19<ln-:#openttd>quality work from italy.
07:20<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i can't get used to this name "pendolino"... it sounds more like a commuter train than a high speed train
07:21<ben_goodger:#openttd>my IT teacher called them "pedalos"
07:22<ln-:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: see this educational video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEreh807D9g
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07:25*Chrill:#openttd prods Brianetta
07:25<hylje:#openttd>3-unit pendolinos ha ha
07:26<Brianetta:#openttd>hi Chrill
07:26<Chrill:#openttd>would your server make use of a 512x512 scenario utilizing boats a lot? :)
07:27<Brianetta:#openttd>no
07:27<Chrill:#openttd>I've rebuilt cities and am going to start fiddling with Industries
07:27<Chrill:#openttd>waii?
07:27<Brianetta:#openttd>limit is at 20 ships
07:27<Brianetta:#openttd>CPU load
07:27<Chrill:#openttd>well, then, the map size was the major question
07:28<Brianetta:#openttd>ah
07:28<Chrill:#openttd>seeing how you, AFAICT, mainly use 256
07:28<Brianetta:#openttd>that's the area I ususally use
07:28<Chrill:#openttd>oh
07:28<Brianetta:#openttd>I use 1024x256
07:28<Chrill:#openttd>ah
07:28<Chrill:#openttd>Well, I'll keep on working on this scenario and send you a preview later, k?
07:28<Brianetta:#openttd>yes (:
07:28<Brianetta:#openttd>Just started a new game now, so no rush
07:30<Chrill:#openttd>okay
07:30<Chrill:#openttd>i noticed it was down recently so I opted for working on my scen :P
07:33<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14368 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp table/roadveh_movement.h): -Fix [FS#1852]: trams jumping when reversing on a single trambit (like caused during road construction reworks) or when (manually) reversing in a corner.
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07:42<Chrill:#openttd>butt, it gave me way too many industries when i accidently pushed "Many industries" something
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07:52<Chrill:#openttd>Brianetta, MSN?
07:57<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar: www.openttd.org/download-cargodest
07:58<Brianetta:#openttd>Chrill: I have MSN, yes
07:58<Brianetta:#openttd>but I'm not at home
08:00<Chrill:#openttd>ah
08:00<Chrill:#openttd>well, im tryin to cleanse some industries still, shall I PM it over TT-forums lateR?
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08:04<Brianetta:#openttd>sure
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08:10<Chrill:#openttd>sent!
08:14<Ammler:#openttd>thank you TrueBrain
08:14<TrueBrain:#openttd>np; OS X failed btw, it doesn't have boost .. and I currently don't have the time to figure out how to feed that to him :p
08:16<Ammler:#openttd>oh
08:17<Ammler:#openttd>well, I guess, boost is the final issue for cargodest :-)
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08:18<@peter1138:#openttd>I wouldn't say final :p
08:18<TrueBrain:#openttd>but a clean solution it does require
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08:22<@peter1138:#openttd>But it does require a clean solution.
08:23<TrueBrain:#openttd>require clean solution it does
08:23<@peter1138:#openttd>(but)
08:23<@peter1138:#openttd>It does but a clean solution require.
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08:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>mercurial and merging are two things that don't really combine ...
08:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>and how now do I get a diff from the latest merge ....
08:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>ah, figured thatout
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08:40<Ammler:#openttd>TrueBrain: that is suprisingly easy.
08:41<TrueBrain:#openttd>what is?
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08:41<Ammler:#openttd>if you mean a svn patch to last merge...
08:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ammler: I meant that it took me a moment to figure out what 'hg' command to give to get the diff since the latest merge
08:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>but it turned out 'tip' showed me the right revision
08:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>still, merging remains a pain, as it doesn't show which files are in conflict with 'hg status' or what ever ..
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08:45<Tekky:#openttd>with hg, is there a possibility to checkout an indiviudal revision? hg clone seems to download the entire repository.
08:45<TrueBrain:#openttd>then run: hg update -r<revision>
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08:46<@peter1138:#openttd>Yeah, that's how hg works. You clone the repo then update to the specific revision.
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08:47<Tekky:#openttd>but downloading the enitre repository doubles the size of my download, normally.
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08:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>that is only true if the size of the hg doubled from the revision you want, and the 'tip' revision
08:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>doubtful :p
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08:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>lol, the amount of data I receive when I do: 'svn checkout' is more than when I do: 'hg clone' :p
08:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>(and with hg I receive a bunch more information :p)
08:50<Tekky:#openttd>oh, is it? I only noticed that hg clone takes a lot more HD space than svn checkout.
08:51<@Rubidium:#openttd>then you might be comparing them wrongly
08:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>most likely he is
08:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>$ svn checkout svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk
08:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>$ du -h trunk
08:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>49M trunk
08:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>$ hg clone http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg
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08:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>$ du -h trunk.hg/.hg
08:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>39M trunk.hg/.hg
08:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>I see a 10 MiB difference
08:53<@Rubidium:#openttd>that's not a right comparison
08:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>lol @ Rubidium; yes it is
08:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>that is the amount of data I received from the external source
08:54<Ammler:#openttd>Rubidium: I can remember, you said the same about :-)
08:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>after that my trunk.hg grows to 62M because it makes a working copy for me
08:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>but that was never any data I received from any remote source
08:54<@Rubidium:#openttd>but svn does that silently
08:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>SVN received the workout from the external source
08:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>it doesn't have that data in his .svn
08:55<@Rubidium:#openttd>TrueBrain: run fdupes over trunk
08:55<@Rubidium:#openttd>and be amazed by the number of duplicate files
08:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>duplciated from where?
08:56<@Rubidium:#openttd>duplicate between $filename and .svn/$filename.svn-base
08:57<@Rubidium:#openttd>duplicate between $filename and .svn/text-base/$filename.svn-base
08:57<TrueBrain:#openttd>yes, so?
08:57<TrueBrain:#openttd>that size is counted only once
08:57<@Rubidium:#openttd>why is that only counted once?
08:58<@Rubidium:#openttd>you check the total size of all files in the directory
08:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>ah, you mean it like that, k, fair enough
09:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>so, removing the workout copy
09:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>26M .
09:01<@peter1138:#openttd>Total of 35MB for my .svn files.
09:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>so, hg ineed is 50% bigger
09:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>with that comes the complete history of all files ..
09:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>still makes you wonder what svn did wrong :p
09:02<@peter1138:#openttd>Hmm, that's not file size :o
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09:02<@Rubidium:#openttd>anyhow, the overhead of hg vs svn is 25% (including working copy)
09:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>and without working copy it is 50%
09:03<@Rubidium:#openttd>where svn requires a network connection and a server storing several hundreds MBs of data
09:03<@Rubidium:#openttd>and hg has all the information it needs locally
09:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: how ever I calculate, I never get 25%
09:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>at least 40%
09:04<Ammler:#openttd>and why do you still use svn as "main" repo?
09:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>@calc 49 / 62
09:04<@DorpsGek:#openttd>TrueBrain: 0.790322580645
09:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>@calc 62 / 49
09:04<@DorpsGek:#openttd>TrueBrain: 1.26530612245
09:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ammler: centralized
09:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>26% .. I can't do math :p
09:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>lol
09:06<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ammler: because subversion has the habit to number all commits sequentially and every checkout of a svn repository has them in the same sequence
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09:06<TrueBrain:#openttd>openttd:/var/repos/svn# du -h openttd -s
09:06<TrueBrain:#openttd>433M openttd
09:07<@Rubidium:#openttd>whereas hg also numbers commits, also sequentially, but at the time they were added to your own checkout, not to some global checkout
09:08<@Rubidium:#openttd>which makes the sequential hg number useless
09:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>openttd:/var/repos/hg# du -h -s -L
09:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>256M .
09:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>(including developers-spaces)
09:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>openttd:/var/repos/git# du -h -s -L
09:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>92M .
09:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>hehe
09:08<@Rubidium:#openttd>and that's why they use those long hashes as "unique" version numbers
09:11<Ammler:#openttd>doesn't the hg repo of the server count sequentially?
09:11<@Rubidium:#openttd>yes
09:11<@Rubidium:#openttd>can an user query those revision numbers?
09:11<@Rubidium:#openttd>no
09:12<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ammler: pick any random 2 hgs based on the same hg on the developers part of hg.openttd.org, and you see 2 commits have different versions (because of merges)
09:12<Ammler:#openttd>as long as you use that repo only in read mode, why not?
09:12<@Rubidium:#openttd>because then you need to query that EACH AND EVERY TIME you compile
09:13<Ammler:#openttd>like svn
09:13<@Rubidium:#openttd>no
09:13<@Rubidium:#openttd>svn knows it's local version number
09:13<Ammler:#openttd>if I clone the hg repo, I have the same numbers as teh server...
09:14<@Rubidium:#openttd>not necessarily
09:14<Ammler:#openttd>and still, when I pull later, not?
09:14*TrueBrain:#openttd suggests adding Bazaar :p
09:14<Ammler:#openttd>but that's how "clone" should work, isn't?
09:15<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ammler: it does work as long as you have only a 'clone' ... but as soon as you make a local commit and start merging, things go very wrong
09:15<TrueBrain:#openttd>(the decentralised part of Mercurial)
09:15<TrueBrain:#openttd>only centralized VCSes can give a revision that is unique throughout the project
09:15<@Rubidium:#openttd>clone only guarantees that the parent "pointers" from each "revision" are correct
09:17<@Rubidium:#openttd>not that the order at which the revisions reach your client are exactly the same as on the server
09:17<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: assuming there are no multiple heads in a hg repos, the chances are VERY high that a 'clone' gives identical revisions :)
09:18<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: becuase of how hg works, that is kind og guaranteed :) (Well, without multiple heads, that is)
09:18<@Rubidium:#openttd>so... it only works for the svn-repos and not for the developer repositories
09:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>and whenever we would start actually using HG as main repository system we would need one person to pull from all developers and push that to the main server
09:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>or things are going to get even more messy
09:20<yorick:#openttd>why doesn't the console have the ability to print "\t"
09:21<Ammler:#openttd>yorick: do you use trunk? there was recently a utf-8 support added (around 2 months)
09:21<@peter1138:#openttd>\t has not much to do with UTF-8...
09:21<yorick:#openttd>yes, using trunk
09:21<yorick:#openttd>but it displays "?"
09:21<yorick:#openttd>also \n to console tends to display improperly
09:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: developers would still be able to commit like svn to a main hg, and when they get a 'clone' again, the version number still is the same on every clone
09:21<Ammler:#openttd>oh tab
09:22<Ammler:#openttd>it looked like a chinese char :-)
09:22<yorick:#openttd>meh...google C string <-- bad query
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10:03<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: frosch * r14369 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp:
10:03<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Fix: Enforce non-front engines to be stopped.
10:03<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: This could be caused by old savegames resp. their conversion, and causes
10:03<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: trouble for e.g. autoreplace.
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10:23<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>hm... some of you are python literate, right? is there a predefined "empty" class? i want to do stuff like this:
10:23<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>a=None
10:23<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>a.x = 5
10:23<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but then it errors out with "NoneType has no attribute x"
10:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>and it also doesn't work with object() instead of None
10:24<TrueBrain:#openttd>dah
10:24<TrueBrain:#openttd>lol :)
10:24<TrueBrain:#openttd>None is not a class, it is nothing :)
10:24<TrueBrain:#openttd>and do you really want a class, or a table?
10:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes, but object is a class
10:24<TrueBrain:#openttd>a = {}
10:24<TrueBrain:#openttd>a['x'] = 5
10:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i'd not like a dictionary
10:25<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i mean i could define a class for this, but it seems silly that such a thing would not be predefined
10:25<Tekky:#openttd>if the repository grew very much due to many changes, then hg offers no way to only checkout the latest revision, whereas svn does? That is correct, isn't it?
10:26<frosch123:#openttd>Tekky: hg pull?
10:26<TrueBrain:#openttd>Tekky: the trunk hg contains 10000 commits, and still is almost smaller ... so how much would you want it to grow before that can become an issue?
10:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: never needed that, as I think it is bad programming, so can't help you there :)
10:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>(I believe in prototyping a class, or use a table :))
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10:29<Tekky:#openttd>TrueBrain: Well, I guess the OpenTTD commits are very small. Other projects which involve changes to big data files, such as art files, can cause the repository to get very large very quickly. Therefore, I consider it important to be able to download only the latest revision.
10:29<frosch123:#openttd>iirc hg cannot deal with binary files
10:29<TrueBrain:#openttd>Tekky: we are not a support channel for a VCS choice ;) For that there are other channels, which can advise you much much better :)
10:30<Tekky:#openttd>frosch123: the pull command assumes that you have a local repository, doesn't it?
10:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>TrueBrain: well, my issue is that a primitive "class Empty: pass" would seem out of place... it does not serve any purpose
10:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>but I won't want to host your VCS, that is fore sure :) (most VCSes can only handle text-blobs in a normal way .. binary data becomes BIG! :p)
10:30<frosch123:#openttd>Tekky: "hg pull" is like "svn update"
10:30<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: glx * r14370 /branches/noai/ (35 files in 7 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14337:14369
10:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: I tihnk abusing a class is out of place ;) (hehe :))
10:31<frosch123:#openttd>and it seams my "IIRC" was wrong :s
10:32<+glx:#openttd>frosch123: wrong, "hg fetch" is like "svn update"
10:32<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>TrueBrain: but internally, the attributes of a class are stored in a dictionary anyway
10:32<+glx:#openttd>and "hg fetch" is "hg pull && hg update"
10:32<frosch123:#openttd>ok :)
10:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: so why use a class in the first place?
10:33<frosch123:#openttd>but "hg pull" prints a warning about that :)
10:33<+glx:#openttd>and you often need "hg commit" too after a merge
10:34<+glx:#openttd>(merge is also done with "hg pull")
10:34<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, the entire issue is way too complex...
10:36<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>TrueBrain: mainly, for an "abstract" constructor i wanted to say "this variable will get filled with attributes later"
10:37<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i'm dealing with Attributed Abstract Grammars
10:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>so, create a class for that :)
10:37<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, yes... class... but i have no suitible place to define that class, so i hoped there was a predefined one ;)
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10:38<Tekky:#openttd>TrueBrain: I do not plan to make my own repository, I am just surprised that hg offers no equivalent to the svn checkout command, i.e. you are forced to download the entire repository even if all you want is the latest revision.
10:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>Tekky: when you want that from hg, you miss the point of hg :)
10:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>hg is a decentralized VCS
10:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>so by default, you want a complete history on your local disk
10:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>what you want, is a centralized VCS
10:39<frosch123:#openttd>Tekky: Maybe you want an equivalent to "svn export"?
10:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>like SVN or CVS
10:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>so it is not that suprising :)
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10:40<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>he just wants to skip one level of decentralisation
10:40<TrueBrain:#openttd>there are hybrids out there
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10:41<JdGordon:#openttd>does anyone know how to compile openttd for windows mobile?
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10:42<+glx:#openttd>JdGordon: no
10:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>JdGordon: OpenTTD is not supported on Windows Mobile out of the box
10:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>it hangs for unknown reasons
10:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>you might want to check out a project on the web which has a working port
10:43<Tekky:#openttd><TrueBrain> so by default, you want a complete history on your local disk <-- I understand that, but I don't understand why hg offers no possibility of overriding this default. This can be important if the repository is much larger than the latest revision.
10:43<+glx:#openttd>I just know it requires a pro version of visual studio
10:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>Tekky: maybe because then all its functionalities fail? :)
10:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>well, maybe you can override it
10:43<JdGordon:#openttd>ah nuts
10:43<JdGordon:#openttd>ok thanls
10:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>but then again, I don't care about that feature, as you would abuse what hg is meant to do
10:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>as I said, you are better of asking those questions in an other channel Tekky :)
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10:48<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>hm, would it work if ".hg" pointed to the remote repository, and then only doing "hg up"?
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10:54<Tekky:#openttd>TrueBrain: if all I want to do is to apply a patch to the latest cargodest revision and then throw it away, which happens often to me, then an equivalent to the SVN checkout command would be best for my purpose, I think. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to store cargodest on a centralized VCS instead of Mercurial server? I guess I should read more about VCSes on Wikiipedia.
10:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>Tekky: cargodest is in development; in development it turns out Mercurial is much better and easier to use, than a SVN branch
10:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>Tekky: and the other option you always have, is to download the source from the latest compile of cargodest, and extract that
10:56<TrueBrain:#openttd>consumes just 3 MiB of bandiwdth
10:56<Tekky:#openttd>shouldn't the AI branch also be a Mercurial branch then, instead of an SVN branch?
10:56<TrueBrain:#openttd>when we started hg was not really in use
10:56<Tekky:#openttd>or is this because there are less people working on cargodest than on the AI branch?
10:56<TrueBrain:#openttd>and for NoAI it turned out to be more useful in SVN
10:57<TrueBrain:#openttd>and for NoAI, I myself do have a hg repos
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10:58<Tekky:#openttd>TrueBrain: does your hg repository contain all the revisions in the SVN tree or is it only a snapshot of a certain SVN revision?
10:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>all hg repos contain the complete history of the SVN branch they are based on
10:59<Tekky:#openttd>the SVN commits and hg commits are compatible, aren't they, as they both use unified diff formats?
10:59<+glx:#openttd>the only problem is hg or git repos miss some changes (when you commit from the wrong dir)
11:00<TrueBrain:#openttd>they don't use that, but they can output as such
11:00<TrueBrain:#openttd>glx: how do you mean?
11:00<+glx:#openttd>(like I did when I commited from extra instead from ottd_grf)
11:00<TrueBrain:#openttd>Tekky: and I rather use hg over SVN, as in hg I do TONS more commits, as SVN is .. more permanent :)
11:00<Tekky:#openttd>ok, thx. As you can see, I am completely new to version control systems.
11:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>read up on it on the Internet
11:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>glx: I don't know of any such problems?
11:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>in the first case, my dont-reimport-everything-protection-script is bugged
11:02<+glx:#openttd>TrueBrain: http://vcs.openttd.org/hg/openttd/extra/website.hg/rev/ee328fc1c57e <-- this one should be in ottd_grf too
11:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>haha, that explains why there was a french blob in the website all of a sudden :p
11:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>hehehehe
11:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>glx: someone shouldhave told me :)
11:03<+glx:#openttd>I think I told it
11:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>not by highlighting my name, first time I read about it :)
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11:09<TrueBrain:#openttd>there you go glx :)
11:09<TrueBrain:#openttd>indeed a mistake in my detection script about what to update :)
11:09<+glx:#openttd>looking in my logs I though you were aware of it ;)
11:09<TrueBrain:#openttd>(it could only handle 1 branch at the time :p)
11:10<TrueBrain:#openttd>I really wasn't :( As I have been wondering where that french came from :p
11:10<TrueBrain:#openttd>hehehe :)
11:10<TrueBrain:#openttd>oh well, fixed now :)
11:12<yorick:#openttd>hm, findversion.sh likes to say 0 [main] sh 4176 sync_with_child: child 5068(0x174) died before initialization with status code 0xFFFFFFFF
11:12<yorick:#openttd>3701 [main] sh 4176 sync_with_child: *** child state waiting for longjmp fork: Resource temporarily unavailable svn: Write error: Invalid argument
11:14<+glx:#openttd>retry
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11:14<yorick:#openttd>works
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11:17*peter1138:#openttd returns
11:18*hylje:#openttd yields
11:19*TrueBrain:#openttd resumes
11:26*Doorslammer:#openttd something
11:31*yorick:#openttd somethings
11:33*murray:#openttd screams
11:35<Tekky:#openttd>In OpenTTD, when you get the offer to exclusively test a new train, what exact consequences does your response have? Does the train end up having a better reliability if you test the train one year before its official appearance?
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11:38<yorick:#openttd>no
11:38<yorick:#openttd>newgrfs can set another appearance
11:38<yorick:#openttd>I think you might get it cheaper
11:38<hylje:#openttd>if you agree to test, you must invest in one and use it during the year
11:38<yorick:#openttd>you don't have to
11:38<hylje:#openttd>if you agree and don't get one, you'll stop getting offers
11:39<@peter1138:#openttd>For a bit.
11:39<hylje:#openttd>if you don't agree nothing special happens
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11:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>hylje: the next player gets the offer ;)
11:44<Tekky:#openttd>ah, in multiplayer, it is randomized who gets the offer?
11:46*yorick:#openttd only needed 190 lines :)
11:48<@peter1138:#openttd>Tekky, no, it's sorted by company rating, I believe.
11:48<Tekky:#openttd>ah, thx
11:49<planetmaker:#openttd>[17:38] <hylje> if you agree and don't get one, you'll stop getting offers <-- not true. I frequently do so and keep getting offers.
11:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>planetmaker: only after N years, you get an other one again
11:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>much less often than when you would have built one
11:52<planetmaker:#openttd>ah, thx TrueBrain :)
11:52<planetmaker:#openttd>So, if you decline, you will get others, though?
11:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>yes
11:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>so... next python problem... how can i pass an int by reference?
11:58<hylje:#openttd>you don't
11:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but i have to
11:58<hylje:#openttd>for what purpose
11:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>to modify its value in a recursive function
11:59<hylje:#openttd>i don't think you need to do that. just have your recursive function return the modified value
11:59<yorick:#openttd>what are you using python for?
12:00<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yorick: rapid prototyping...
12:00<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>what else is python useful for?
12:00<hylje:#openttd>glue
12:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>hylje: the problem with returning the value is, i have to handle that return value at every place the function is used
12:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but i need very generic replaceable functions
12:01<hylje:#openttd>nested function
12:01<yorick:#openttd>or just put stuff in a dict?
12:02<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>dicts are bad...
12:02<hylje:#openttd>in python not really
12:02<yorick:#openttd>so is passing an int by reference
12:03<yorick:#openttd>that'd be worse
12:03<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i'd have absolutely no chance to ever statically check my own program with my program ;)
12:03<hylje:#openttd>i suspect you don't actually want to use python then
12:03<yorick:#openttd>only thing is I miss in python are objects
12:03<hylje:#openttd>eh, what?
12:04<hylje:#openttd>like the `object` builtin?
12:04<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, the task is to statically check python ;;
12:04<yorick:#openttd>hylje: no, basically dicts I can access with "."
12:04<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but dicts are pretty much the worst to statically check
12:05<yorick:#openttd>for key in dict?
12:05<valhallasw:#openttd>yorick: like... properties?
12:05<hylje:#openttd>yorick: attributes
12:05<yorick:#openttd>attributes, yes
12:05<valhallasw:#openttd>attributes is the right term for python indeed
12:05<hylje:#openttd>just make a dummy subclass of object and use that?
12:06<valhallasw:#openttd>or rather: "Properties: attributes managed by get/set methods"
12:06<yorick:#openttd>yes, you need a subclass
12:06<yorick:#openttd>I don't like dummy subclasses
12:06<yorick:#openttd>I just want o = object(); o.a = 10
12:06<hylje:#openttd>too bad object doesn't have a __dict__ but one has to optimize something
12:07<valhallasw:#openttd>why would you want to do that with variables that are not used in the object?
12:07<hylje:#openttd>valhallasw: to have a syntax-sugary dict
12:07<yorick:#openttd>to have a syntax-sugary dict
12:09<valhallasw:#openttd>right
12:10<valhallasw:#openttd>the way you stated it would mean 'I want to be able to do this with *any* object'
12:10<valhallasw:#openttd>if you just want a syntax-sugary dict, create one :P
12:10<yorick:#openttd>I want one out of the box
12:12<yorick:#openttd>why does my gcc have dutch error messages all of a sudden?
12:12<valhallasw:#openttd>.. it's like 5 lines of code :P
12:12<yorick:#openttd>how does it even know I understand dutch
12:12<valhallasw:#openttd>try asking locale
12:12<yorick:#openttd>valhallasw: that is already too much for a command-line
12:12<yorick:#openttd>notfair :(
12:13<valhallasw:#openttd>then import SyntaxSugaryDict ;)
12:13<yorick:#openttd>not portable enough
12:13<valhallasw:#openttd>which is still longer than o = object(), agreed
12:14<valhallasw:#openttd>then stop whining and use dict['a'] :P
12:14<valhallasw:#openttd>which is /not/ limited to strings
12:15<valhallasw:#openttd>unless you use o.__getattr__(object), but that defeats the purpose :P
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12:15<yorick:#openttd>also, I would like to have a stdout replacement in less than 185 lines of C
12:16<valhallasw:#openttd>also, I would like to travel faster than C
12:16<yorick:#openttd>and Syntax Sugary Dicts should help me do that
12:17<valhallasw:#openttd>why does o.a vs o['a'] reduce your line count?
12:17<yorick:#openttd>because I can make stdout.write with the first, and not with the second
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12:22<valhallasw:#openttd>you mean it makes implementing functions dynamically possibler
12:22<valhallasw:#openttd>-r
12:25<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>PS: i solved my reference issue like this: http://nopaste.php-q.net/52007
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13:14*lobster:#openttd does a search for a guide to using these "advanced signals"
13:15<lobster:#openttd>oddest of things
13:18<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>there are plenty of those
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13:20<lobster:#openttd>found one, indeed
13:20<lobster:#openttd>i'll try them immediatly in my game
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13:22<lobster:#openttd>hrrr, works like a charm
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13:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>requesting a skilled C++ template person ...
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14:09<yorick:#openttd>where did the flags on the website go?
14:10<@peter1138:#openttd>I believe they're pending some kind of translation support.
14:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>people complained too much that when they clicked their flag, they still got english ... and failed to understand completely that it might be because it simply wasn't translated yet
14:12<@peter1138:#openttd>I think some kind of text-based dropdown menu would be better, anyway.
14:14<@peter1138:#openttd>14% of / used... Maybe I made it too big :)
14:15<@peter1138:#openttd>Hmm, 1 hr 30 mins left on ebay...
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14:19<juicetyve:#openttd>buying or selling? :p
14:28<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14371 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp texteff.hpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#2313]: loading indicator didn't stay with the front engine when turning a train in a station.
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14:31<@Bjarni:#openttd><juicetyve> buying or selling? :p <-- buying whatever his wife is selling because he is unaware of her ebay nick :P
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14:59<ln-:#openttd>http://www.lafinjack.net/images/random/offensive.jpg
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15:23<@Bjarni:#openttd>ln-: which one would you pick?
15:25<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>"a graphically severed human head" <- like the navigator in monkey island?
15:25<Tim:#openttd>A, then B, then C, then D
15:27<@Bjarni:#openttd>if we read A as the navigator from MI, then I would say D
15:27<@Bjarni:#openttd>if it's a first person shooter and it aims for realistic graphics, then I would say A
15:28<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>this question is a typical case of "it depends..."
15:28<@Bjarni:#openttd>yeah
15:28<frosch123:#openttd>yup, they should have attached the four pictures instead :p
15:28<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: Nothing "depends". Everything is either right or wrong.
15:28<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>like how old the children are, and how detailed the games are
15:28<@Bjarni:#openttd>now that would have been offensive to some people
15:29<Tim:#openttd>Do you think it would be such an impact on your childs if they see two men kissing each other? Oo
15:29<@Bjarni:#openttd>YES
15:29<@Bjarni:#openttd>:P
15:29<@Bjarni:#openttd>but that's not the question
15:30<@Bjarni:#openttd>the question is what YOU find offensive
15:30<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Sacro.
15:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>"as a parent" meaning "if your children would see this"
15:30<Sacro:#openttd>?
15:30<Sacro:#openttd>argh
15:30<Sacro:#openttd>not men kissing
15:31<@Bjarni:#openttd>I say it would really depend on the age of the child
15:31<@Bjarni:#openttd>say the child is 12
15:31<@Bjarni:#openttd>then I would likely ban all games containing any of those listed here
15:31<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Are you deciding whet
15:32<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Are you deciding what to put into openttd?
15:32<Prof_Frink:#openttd>s/ban/rate 15 and enforce rating/
15:32<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i could never understand all the trouble around "the F-word"
15:32<@Bjarni:#openttd>the game is for all ages who can understand the game
15:33<@Bjarni:#openttd>the code is rated 18+ though
15:33<Prof_Frink:#openttd>What? France?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes.
15:33<@Bjarni:#openttd>and it has been that way since DV said "fucking cunt code" while coding
15:33<Tim:#openttd>I think for the next generation it will get more or less "normal" to see two men kissing each other - Considering how the acceptance of homosexuality developed until today ;)
15:34<@Bjarni:#openttd>I'm not so sure if I would allow any game involving people kissing each other
15:34<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>traditionally, these things shift very much
15:35<@Bjarni:#openttd>ok, the sims could be an exception ;)
15:35<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>like if you compare ancient greek culture to medieval culture
15:35<@Bjarni:#openttd>they can kiss in the sims, right?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Bjarni: yes, and you get babies from kissing
15:36<@Bjarni:#openttd>heh
15:36<Tim:#openttd>Well, i hope we won't make a huge step backwards like the one from the greek/roman culture to the medieevalian one ;)
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15:36<@Bjarni:#openttd>I got top grade in biology and the topic for the exam was reproduction oriented. I can inform you that kissing alone isn't enough :P
15:36<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Tim: Well, the main cause of that was religion. Oh cock.
15:37<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Tim: i'm pretty certain something like that will happen again
15:37<Tim:#openttd>Truly sad, if you look at what the romans build and knew about medicine and then compare it to the dark age...
15:37<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Hmm, 8 cunts in trunk
15:37<@Bjarni:#openttd>o_O
15:37<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Prof_Frink: it wasn't that much about religion, it was more about decline of government and infrastructure
15:38<@Bjarni:#openttd>somebody once made a bugreport because the random name generator made "Cunttown"
15:38<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>didn't someone reply that this was an actual townname?
15:38<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Scunthorpe
15:39<yorick:#openttd>stupid multistop-less trams
15:39<@Bjarni:#openttd>http://www.backpackershell.com/photogallery/photo00019871/RACIST_park.jpg <-- speaking of placenames... I found a bit of Engrish :D
15:39<yorick:#openttd>get stuck at every stop
15:39<yorick:#openttd>and they like to go to every stop all at once
15:40<lobster:#openttd>oh dear me
15:40<lobster:#openttd>advanced signals fail it at my junction
15:41<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you are doing it wrong
15:43<lobster:#openttd>actually, no
15:43<lobster:#openttd>there's bridges in it
15:43<lobster:#openttd>the signals can't cope with them
15:43<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes, they can
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15:45<lobster:#openttd>i guess not
15:45<lobster:#openttd>otherwise my junction would've worked
15:45<lobster:#openttd>t'is the simplest of junctions, only with 2 2-tile bridges inbetween the signals and the station
15:46<lobster:#openttd>and thus all goes to pot
15:46<@peter1138:#openttd>Screenshot, or savegame?
15:50<lobster:#openttd>oh wai
15:50<lobster:#openttd>looks like i'm doing it wrong after all
15:50<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>gee...
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15:55<Kasceh:#openttd>What happens if I rcon newgame in a server?
15:55<yorick:#openttd>it stops being a server
15:56<Kasceh:#openttd>uh oh D:
15:57<OdwallaBongwater:#openttd>D:
15:57-!-OdwallaBongwater is now known as nckomodo
15:57<Kasceh:#openttd>Oh, is it a script that kicks people if they try do big terraform?
15:58<@peter1138:#openttd>yorick, no it doesn't.
15:59<yorick:#openttd>Kasceh: is what?
15:59<Kasceh:#openttd>That 'thing' that can kick people if they delete/terraform large sections of area
16:00<@Bjarni:#openttd>that's called an "admin"
16:00<Kasceh:#openttd>.. Automatically lol
16:00<yorick:#openttd>Kasceh: does that exist?
16:00<Kasceh:#openttd>Yes
16:00<Kasceh:#openttd>Ive seen it a few tiems
16:00<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yeah, kick all players, then you automatically kick the ones that do bad terraforming
16:00<juicetyve:#openttd>somebody mentioned a patch for it in here last night
16:01<yorick:#openttd>oh, then you're the one I banned a couple of times :)
16:01<Kasceh:#openttd>No? lol
16:01<Kasceh:#openttd>its quite common
16:01<Kasceh:#openttd>I just cant remember what its called
16:01<yorick:#openttd>hehe
16:01<yorick:#openttd>terraform autokick
16:01<yorick:#openttd>kick if terraform too much
16:02<yorick:#openttd>I wrote such a patch...
16:02-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: But anyway, Poef!]
16:02<Kasceh:#openttd>Or is it possible just to make terraform cost alot?
16:03<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes
16:03<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>it's a grf
16:03<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>"basecost" or something
16:03<Kasceh:#openttd>Does everyone else need to grf, though?
16:04<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes. all people need the grf
16:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>you can also modify the savegame :p
16:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>hehehehehee
16:04<Kasceh:#openttd>Modify it to do what
16:05<Kasceh:#openttd>Cant trust people in servers, always come back to find the map completely deformed
16:05<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>force people to put a company password
16:05<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>helps a great deal
16:06<Kasceh:#openttd>Not on this server it doesnt
16:06<juicetyve:#openttd>well you get a long way with 100k :p
16:06<Kasceh:#openttd>it appears at the top, and its a heightmap of the UK
16:06<Kasceh:#openttd>people just get bored and sink it
16:07<Kasceh:#openttd>There should be an option of turning off water terraform,
16:07<Kasceh:#openttd>Or make water terraform cost alot more than it already does
16:08<lobster:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: to be fairly honest, i followed the instructions from the wiki
16:08<lobster:#openttd>so either the instructions are faulty, or the signals are
16:08<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i have still no idea what you actually did
16:09<lobster:#openttd>well, i tried to apply them to terminal stations
16:09<lobster:#openttd>which should be doable
16:10<lobster:#openttd>but not in the manner i tried
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16:12<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>which is exactly the same information as before...
16:12<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>stop wasting my time...
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16:12<frosch123:#openttd>hm, the year 0 does neither belong to the first century before nor after christ
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16:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>there is no year 0
16:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>it jumped from -1 to 1
16:13<@peter1138:#openttd>There is in OpenTTD :D
16:13<TrueBrain:#openttd>were you there?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes, i'm way older than peter1138 ;)
16:14<@peter1138:#openttd>Obviously.
16:14<@peter1138:#openttd>Not!
16:14<@peter1138:#openttd>1138 BC, maybe?
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16:23<ln-:#openttd>wtf, is there some fee that foreign cars or buses need to pay in Germany?
16:23<Tim:#openttd>no
16:23<Tim:#openttd>only lkws
16:23<Tim:#openttd>buses might be though...
16:23<lobster:#openttd>alright, anyone that's not Eddi|zuHause, i'm having a bit of trouble applying advanced signals to terminus stations
16:23<frosch123:#openttd>only trucks
16:24<lobster:#openttd>is it not a one way on entry, two-way at the station lines itself?
16:24<ln-:#openttd>i was told a finnish bus was charged ~200 euros by a Zoll person who stopped the bus near Lübeck.
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16:26<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>lobster: wtf is so hard to understand about "screenshot or savegame"?
16:26<@Bjarni:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: well, you need to figure out how to generate a file and then you need to put it online
16:28<lobster:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: wtf is so hard about simply stating "terminus stations need signal x on entry and signal y in front of the station itself"?
16:28<lobster:#openttd>a lot less hard than screenshotting, uploading and then asking
16:28<lobster:#openttd>but hey, i'll seek for some advice somewhere else
16:28<frosch123:#openttd>lobster: advanced one way signal on entry, no signals at station, no signal at exit
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16:28<nicfer:#openttd>hi
16:29<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i'd so love a /kick command right now... but an /ignore must suffice...
16:29<nicfer:#openttd>I've tried the nintendo ds port with an emulator and it crashed
16:29<nicfer:#openttd>how does it work?
16:29<lobster:#openttd>thanks, frosch123
16:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i know... it's my fault...
16:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i care too much about people having a problem
16:32<frosch123:#openttd>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tierprozess <- could become my favorite wiki page
16:33<frosch123:#openttd>in 1740 in france a cow was judged and hanged for wizardry...
16:34<@Bjarni:#openttd>well
16:35<@Bjarni:#openttd>we saw in Diablo 2 that cows can be rather mean to human beings
16:37<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Hanging a fully grown cow...the scaffolding for that would have to be pretty well built.
16:37<frosch123:#openttd>that's what I thought :)
16:37<nicfer:#openttd>is possible to test nds' openttd in a emulator?
16:39<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>nicfer: it's pretty safe to assume that nobody here ever tried that
16:39<@Bjarni:#openttd>nicfer: too bad the porter is offline at the moment and nobody else can answer your question
16:39<@Bjarni:#openttd>you could post this question on the forum in the DS thread
16:40<@Bjarni:#openttd><EddizuHause> nicfer: it's pretty safe to assume that nobody here ever tried that <-- yeah... my thought was "there is an emulator... maybe I should check it out" :D
16:41<nicfer:#openttd>there are various of them
16:41<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Can always give it a shot yourself, and report back whether it worked...
16:41<nicfer:#openttd>someones paid, others free
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16:48<@Bjarni:#openttd>why pay for software when you can get something equally good for free?
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16:57<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14372 /branches/noai/ (21 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIRail and friends (Yexo)
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17:00<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14373 /branches/noai/src/train_cmd.cpp: [NoAI] -Remove: no longer need for braindead AI only code (Yexo)
17:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>quickly hide massive feature under spam...
17:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>new approach ;(
17:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>;)
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17:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>at least I use commit messages which state what it does :p
17:02<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, "implement feature XY callback AB" does also state what it does :p
17:02<frosch123:#openttd>-Codechange: Enable feature 00 for AIs. :)
17:03<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>iirc the tram commit message was of that style ;)
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17:11<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14374 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix r14372: forget to update MSVC project files (blabla, always the same :p)
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17:20<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14375 /branches/noai/src/train_cmd.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r14373: remove the now unused variable too ;)
17:21<@peter1138:#openttd>Hmm, I never did finish the callbacks for AIs...
17:21<@peter1138:#openttd>Quite possibly it doesn't make sense for NoAI...
17:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>which callbacks?
17:21-!-Zephyris [~Zephyris@90.242.95.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>that is why I ask ;)
17:21<@peter1138:#openttd>Callbacks that say what vehicles to buy, and what stations to place.
17:22<@peter1138:#openttd>(NewGRF station type, that is. Just graphical)
17:22<TrueBrain:#openttd>makes little sense for NoAI
17:22<TrueBrain:#openttd>AIs can query them self :)
17:22<@peter1138:#openttd>AIs don't know what station looks good for freight, though ;)
17:22<@peter1138:#openttd>That's basically what that does.
17:23<@peter1138:#openttd>For vehicles... yeah, they can choose anyway.
17:23<TrueBrain:#openttd>hehe
17:23<TrueBrain:#openttd>silly :)
17:24<@peter1138:#openttd>There are other things but I can't remember what :p
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17:28<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i'd so love to program an AI, but i don't have that kind of time...
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17:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>hm... when a filename doesn't fit on a widescreen monitor (with moderate font size), something probably got out of hand :p
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17:53<Brianetta:#openttd>Sacro: You about?
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17:57<Kasceh:#openttd>An idea for you guys, dont know how valid it is though: Allow GRFs to be downloaded from a server
17:59<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>how... original...
17:59<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>like... not 70 other people have suggestes this before you
18:00<Sacro:#openttd>Brianetta: yeah
18:00<Kasceh:#openttd>Lol
18:00<Brianetta:#openttd>Sacro: Next weekend I'm off to the Lakes for a week
18:00<Kasceh:#openttd>Easier to say "its been suggested before" than to go off on one and be an ass about it
18:00<Sacro:#openttd>Brianetta: ooh how lovely
18:00<Brianetta:#openttd>Think you're up to looking after the server?
18:01<Sacro:#openttd>Errm...
18:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>"but no party!"
18:01<Sacro:#openttd>possibly :)
18:01<Sacro:#openttd>I couldn't find the rcon password
18:01<Sacro:#openttd>oh
18:01<Sacro:#openttd>tis in the openttd.cfg isn't i
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18:01<Brianetta:#openttd>yes (:
18:02<Brianetta:#openttd>gtg; business calls
18:03<Sacro:#openttd>hehe
18:04<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>on sundays at midnight?
18:04<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you have strange office hours :p
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18:18<nicfer:#openttd>is there any ttdpatch guide to do an grf that doesn't changes sprites?
18:19<nicfer:#openttd>well, a grf file that changes industries and cargos characteristics
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18:26<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes, it's called NewGraphicsSpecs, on the ttdpatch wiki.
18:27<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>specifically action 0 and varaction 2 for industries
18:27<nicfer:#openttd>it doesn't mention what to do if you don't plan including a pcx file
18:29<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>just leave the pcx file out?
18:30<nicfer:#openttd>what actions are out?
18:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>no actions...
18:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>actions per definition have nothing to do with pcx files
18:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>"real sprites" have to do with pcx files
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18:48<caladan:#openttd>Hi, are there any RSS feeds available on the new website?
18:51<nicfer:#openttd>I'm having troubles with Action 1 for the cargos part
18:52<nicfer:#openttd>how many sets should I assign to it?
18:54<FauxFaux:#openttd>caladan: You mean, apart from the one that you get from the home page?
18:54<nicfer:#openttd>also, are cargos assigned to a certain climate?
18:55<caladan:#openttd>FauxFaux: well, i dont receive them since monday or something?
18:55<caladan:#openttd>i mean those from main page, there was address: http://www.openttd.org/mixedfeed.php
18:56<caladan:#openttd>and now it doesnt work
18:56<caladan:#openttd>cause homepage changed
18:56<caladan:#openttd>were the feeds moved somewhere or removed?
18:57<FauxFaux:#openttd>caladan: Do yo not get an rss icon in your browser? Or does your browser suck?
18:58<caladan:#openttd>yup, it's there
18:58<caladan:#openttd>i was looking for a direct link
18:58<caladan:#openttd>thanks
18:58<FauxFaux:#openttd>...
18:58<FauxFaux:#openttd>Actually, the feeds look like crap in Opera's rss reader, full of html.
18:58<caladan:#openttd>i use Akregator
19:00<caladan:#openttd>i used to look for direct links, not to use firefox icon appearing at address bar, sorry :D
19:01<caladan:#openttd>k, thx for help, bye
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19:02<FauxFaux:#openttd>TrueBrain: a) Both the rss feeds are full of (escaped) html so look like ass in every aggregator I can find, and b) visiting http://www.openttd.org/ gets you to http://www.openttd.org//en/ in at least two browsers.
19:05<FauxFaux:#openttd>And still lags IE quite a bit. :p
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20:14<ln-:#openttd>end of discussion
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22:18<Metalcore:#openttd>how reasonable would the option of "funding" a subsidy be? Perhaps by "hiring lobbyists"?
22:18<Metalcore:#openttd>obviously only for currently nonexistent routes
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22:55<roboboy:#openttd>but then in SP you would be spending money to make money and you would either make a loss or make way more than it cost to build and fund it
23:03<Metalcore:#openttd>well, make it cost a lot and be uncertain
23:03<Metalcore:#openttd>like prospecting for primary industries
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23:46<roboboy:#openttd>I have a station with a one tile gap between it and a competitors station and want to build an extra platform in that gap but if I ctrl build the station it builds as a new station
23:47<roboboy:#openttd>can I get it to be built as part of my existing station?
23:51<roboboy:#openttd>hello
---Logclosed Mon Sep 22 00:00:03 2008