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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-09-22

---Logopened Mon Sep 22 00:00:03 2008
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00:30<roboboy:#openttd>fixing a problem with mibbit
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00:30<roboboy:#openttd>fixing a problem with mibbit
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00:30<roboboy:#openttd>fixing a problem with mibbit
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01:25<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>apparently, there can only be one fix to mibbit...
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02:24<roboboy:#openttd>fixing a problem with mibbit
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02:25<roboboy:#openttd>fixing a problem with mibbit
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02:25<@Rubidium:#openttd>roboboy: use a proper client that doesn't need to reboot every mnute
02:26<roboboy:#openttd>it only needs fixing on exiting after hibbernation
02:27<roboboy:#openttd>fixing a problem with mibbit
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02:27<roboboy:#openttd>I shall try other methods
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02:28<Tim:#openttd>Good Morning everyone
02:30<Tim:#openttd>Well, seems like the devs fell asleep in front of their pcs :D
02:32<roboboy:#openttd>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=39699 Does anyone like it. Its not meant to be a TTDPatch has it so OpenTTD must aswell. I actually think it would be useful
02:32<Noldo:#openttd>there is a patch for that
02:33<roboboy:#openttd>yeah
02:33<Noldo:#openttd>hmm
02:33<Noldo:#openttd>or there was
02:33<Noldo:#openttd>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30960
02:33<Noldo:#openttd>that's the distant join part of it
02:35<roboboy:#openttd>yeah and I wish it would be done as I have a use for it now
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02:43<@peter1138:#openttd>Yeah, whatever happened to those patches...
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02:51<Noldo:#openttd>is there FS task about it?
02:52<Noldo:#openttd>last updated version is 21.8.
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03:22-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
03:29<letto:#openttd>are there any station grfs that change when pasagers arrive ala industrial staion renewal ?
03:37<@Celestar:#openttd>don't most station grfs do that?
03:37<letto:#openttd>dunno
03:40<welshdragon:#openttd>only the Michael Blunck ones, but let's not go there
03:41<@Celestar:#openttd>...
03:41*Forked:#openttd wanders in that general direction since he has no clue whats going on there
03:45<roboboy:#openttd>where can I find information on that subject welshdragon? TTDP graphics forum?
03:46<welshdragon:#openttd>i'm digging it up nopw
03:46<roboboy:#openttd>as I missed it while I was away from thouroughly reading the forums
03:47<letto:#openttd>yup, just tested and it works :)
03:47<letto:#openttd>thanks :)
03:49<welshdragon:#openttd>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=38749&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=michael+blunck - look at gis posts on the 2nd/3rd pages
03:49<welshdragon:#openttd>that's why brianetta no longer has them in his grf'S
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04:15<sulai:#openttd>Hi there :)
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04:18<@peter1138:#openttd>Well, that's a bugger.
04:19<@peter1138:#openttd>I forgot about my ebay bid... The server went for £59 :(
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04:21<welshdragon:#openttd>peter1138, you fool
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04:23<@peter1138:#openttd>Dual Athlon MP 2800+, 4GB RAM... was not a bad box :o
04:23<@peter1138:#openttd>Oh well, I'll keep looking.
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04:25<@peter1138:#openttd>1U chassis go for that much :o
04:27-!-Metalcore is now known as sleep
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04:31<sulai:#openttd>peter1138: The station rating window is too big, since it has space for all cargo, even if there is only one shown. I could provide a patch which addapts the station rating part of the window, depending on how many ratings are shown there. It's a spin-off of my "remove rating/accept button" patch http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=99080 are you interested?
04:33<sulai:#openttd>Please don't misunderstand. I don't want to remove the rating/accpet button. I'd like to ask if there is some interest to resice the rating part in the original window.
04:33<sulai:#openttd>*resize ;)
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05:17<Nite_Owl:#openttd>!logs
05:17<SpComb:#openttd>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
05:36<@Celestar:#openttd>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/EW_60-16000-6100_Antriebe.jpg
05:36<@Celestar:#openttd>nice switch (=
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05:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>FauxFaux: rules say RSS data can't be HTML :p
05:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>I will check if it is a flag somewhere to change that ;)
05:56<Brianetta:#openttd>http://blogs.vertigosoftware.com/photos/jatwood/images/2568/original.aspx
05:56<Brianetta:#openttd>Fractal Ted.
06:00<@peter1138:#openttd>Grrr, I have a network printer that I can't remove :o
06:00<@peter1138:#openttd>Brianetta! It's your fault!
06:01<@peter1138:#openttd>You made me play OpenTTD on your server, so I forgot to bid on ebay :(
06:03<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14376 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/regression/regression.txt src/ai/api/ai_rail.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: AIRail.BuildSignal had a bug (Yexo)
06:03<@Celestar:#openttd>hhehe
06:03<Sacro|MB:#openttd>http://www.i-mockery.com/minimocks/ninjagolf/ninjagolf-flashgame.php
06:04<Brianetta:#openttd>muahahah
06:04<Brianetta:#openttd>My plan matures
06:04*Brianetta:#openttd has the item
06:04<@peter1138:#openttd>So now I have no £59 server :(
06:04<Brianetta:#openttd>*I* am the top bidder!
06:04<@peter1138:#openttd>Which is most annoying.
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06:23<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14377 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
06:23<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: AIVehicle functions to manipulate wagons (Yexo)
06:23<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: use ::GetVehicle()->type over GetVehicleType (a bit faster)
06:24<Noldo:#openttd>wagons \o/
06:24<FauxFaux:#openttd>Uh oh, are we heading towards train support?
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06:29<@Celestar:#openttd>hm ..
06:29<@Celestar:#openttd>Stuttgart - Aachen 3hours :o
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06:31<Yexo:#openttd>FauxFaux: not heading towards, train support is complete now (apart from a missing rail pathfinder in the library)
06:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: then you didn't walk
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06:38<@Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: er no :) I'm just trying to decide how to get there (=
06:38<@Celestar:#openttd>3 hours is not realistically possible by car.
06:38<@Celestar:#openttd>about 430 km.
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06:46<@Rubidium:#openttd>it's only 3 days and 15 hours walking
06:47<@Celestar:#openttd>how did you estimate that? :P
06:48<@Rubidium:#openttd>http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=stuttgart&daddr=aachen&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&dirflg=w&sll=49.836295,7.694925&sspn=3.351703,3.290405&ie=UTF8&ll=49.813176,7.635498&spn=3.353421,3.290405&z=8 <- like so
06:49<@Celestar:#openttd>er ok :P
06:50<@Celestar:#openttd>it's 3.5-4.5 hours by car
06:50<Forked:#openttd>but by walking you take the shortcut !
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06:53<@Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: does that assume that you can walk 24 hours a day?
06:54<@Celestar:#openttd>apparently
06:54<@Celestar:#openttd>5km/h average.
06:54<@Celestar:#openttd>so when you walk 10 hours a day ... it's more like 9 days
06:54<@Celestar:#openttd>hm.
06:55<@Celestar:#openttd>the Railway Ticket is about 90 EUR. Considering you need at least one pair of shoes for walking over 400km, one can assume that walking is not much cheaper :P
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07:18<sulai:#openttd>wasn't there a documentation in wiki about how to create a new savegame version for a patch? I'm searching a while already, but I can't find it...
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07:21<sulai:#openttd>oh just found it =)
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07:25<Brianetta:#openttd>Celestar: I have a pair of walking boots that's done at least 400km.
07:28<@Celestar:#openttd>Brianetta: well :P
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07:48<@Celestar:#openttd>Brianetta: but on in 3 hours 430km :P
07:52<Brianetta:#openttd>?
07:57<@Celestar:#openttd>Brianetta: you walking boots don't average 130km/h :P
07:59<roboboy:#openttd>if I unload cargo at a station that doesnt accept it and it later accepts it, do my vehicles get payed? no cargodest
07:59<Brianetta:#openttd>I never disputed that. I was disputing the costs.
07:59<@Celestar:#openttd>Brianetta: well, it depends on the quality of the boots and the price I guess
07:59<Brianetta:#openttd>roboboy: You'd need to pick the cargo up and then drop it again
08:00<Brianetta:#openttd>Celestar: These boots cost about €50
08:00<@Celestar:#openttd>Brianetta: btw. ticket prices is 75 EUR only ..
08:00<Brianetta:#openttd>Boots are extremely cost effective. Food and cooking fuel for the journey costs more.
08:00<roboboy:#openttd>so when a PBI industry stops accepting I dont get payed even though it gets used because I unloaded it
08:00<Brianetta:#openttd>A 3 hour journey, in general, doesn't carry a starvation risk.
08:01<Brianetta:#openttd>roboboy: Did you force it onto the station with unload?
08:01<Sacro|MB:#openttd>really?
08:01<roboboy:#openttd>yes
08:01*Sacro|MB:#openttd gets really hungry on 3 hour journeys :(
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08:01<Brianetta:#openttd>In which case, check the platform.
08:01<Brianetta:#openttd>It'll still be there.
08:01<Brianetta:#openttd>Stil in transit.
08:01<roboboy:#openttd>ok
08:01<roboboy:#openttd>but it gets used
08:01<Brianetta:#openttd>no
08:01<Sacro|MB:#openttd>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Train_simulation_video_games
08:01<Sacro|MB:#openttd>:D
08:02<@Celestar:#openttd>Brianetta: well, if you consider food and shelter for a journey of 400km, walking is always the least cost effective I guess
08:02<Brianetta:#openttd>Celestar: Shelter's a capital cost, but yeah, for a one-off, take a train.
08:03<Brianetta:#openttd>Simutrans would be my game of choice if it didn't have dumbed down track.
08:04<roboboy:#openttd>but it gets used when the industry starts to accept the goods
08:04<roboboy:#openttd>gnight soon
08:04<@Celestar:#openttd>Brianetta: how good is simutrans' destination system?
08:04<Brianetta:#openttd>Celestar: Comprehensive.
08:05<Brianetta:#openttd>It's really hard to stay afloat
08:05<@Celestar:#openttd>any idea I might want to implement?
08:05<Brianetta:#openttd>Well, here's how it works
08:05<Brianetta:#openttd>Passengers are generated by buildings of various sorts
08:05<Brianetta:#openttd>Each passenger is created wanting to go somewhere
08:05<Brianetta:#openttd>They will change up to 20 times to get there
08:06<Brianetta:#openttd>but they won't even show up at a station if they can't get where they're going
08:06<Brianetta:#openttd>Any potential destination (town, stadium, industry) shows how many people want to reach it
08:06<Brianetta:#openttd>but individual point-to-point potential journeys are numerous and not often duplicated
08:06<Brianetta:#openttd>You really, really can't survive if you don't integrate
08:07<Brianetta:#openttd>Most passengers want to go shorter distances
08:07<@Celestar:#openttd>yeah
08:07<Brianetta:#openttd>Relatively few want to go to Distantville Stadium
08:07<Brianetta:#openttd>but Nearsville Factory needs its local workers
08:07<Brianetta:#openttd>so you'd run a bus there
08:07<@Celestar:#openttd>I'm working on something like that.
08:08<@Celestar:#openttd>but then I'd need industries that accept passengers
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08:08<Brianetta:#openttd>The workers would get to your bus by connecting services
08:08<Brianetta:#openttd>You have them
08:08<Brianetta:#openttd>Farms take 1/4, factories 3/4
08:08<Brianetta:#openttd>A newgrf can tweak them
08:09<Brianetta:#openttd>but since Simutrans has brain-dead track layouts, I don't play
08:09<Brianetta:#openttd>Take a single line with passing loop
08:10*Celestar:#openttd wants IS first intergrated with cargodest :D
08:10<Brianetta:#openttd>Any train can run around from one side to the other, within the loop, because all junctions on a tile are connected.
08:10<Brianetta:#openttd>IS?
08:11<Vikthor:#openttd>infrastructure sharing
08:11<Brianetta:#openttd>ah
08:11<Brianetta:#openttd>IS would be cool
08:11<Ammler:#openttd>Celestar: first drafts of ECS had also workers as cargo type
08:11<Brianetta:#openttd>but my desire for it isn't linked to my desire for any other features
08:12*peter1138:#openttd wants ships.
08:12<Ammler:#openttd>then they changed it to vehicels
08:12<Brianetta:#openttd>peter1138: Ever played Ports of Call?
08:12<Brianetta:#openttd>http://www.portsofcall.de/
08:13<@Celestar:#openttd>Brianetta: what other features do you desire except non-magic brakes?
08:13<@peter1138:#openttd>No.
08:13<@peter1138:#openttd>I mean Pikka's ships ;)
08:14<Brianetta:#openttd>Pikka has ships?
08:14*Brianetta:#openttd goes mental
08:14<Brianetta:#openttd>Celestar: Multiple signal block reservations per train, and my orders grouping suggestion
08:14<@Celestar:#openttd>orders grouping?
08:14<Brianetta:#openttd>So I can designate a train's order as express, and it reserves further
08:14<Brianetta:#openttd>Orders grouping
08:15<@Celestar:#openttd>I see
08:15<Brianetta:#openttd>ttp://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=728175#p728175
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08:15<Brianetta:#openttd>You might want to stick an h in front of that URL
08:15<@Celestar:#openttd>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=728175#p728175 <= like so? :P
08:16<Brianetta:#openttd>For orders grouping, exactly like so
08:16<Brianetta:#openttd>That would make the game playable by my wife (:
08:16<Brianetta:#openttd>Bear in mind that there's heavy resistance form the "but I use groups for silly things" crowd
08:17<@Celestar:#openttd>what "silly things" are those?
08:18<@Celestar:#openttd>I usually group vehicles by kind-of-lines
08:18<@Celestar:#openttd>Yeah Baby
08:18<@Celestar:#openttd>ors found while checking this document as XHTML 1.0 Transitional!
08:18<@Celestar:#openttd>Result: 273 Errors, 180 warning(s)
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08:23<sulai:#openttd>I just started a wiki article about how to do a savegame bump. But I am not very experienced and just had a look at the code. Does somebody know about how this works? Can he give a quick overview on http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Patches/CreateSavegame ?
08:27<Vikthor:#openttd>sulai: You should probably look here http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Patches/AddPatchOption
08:27<sulai:#openttd>this is only about how to add a patch variable to a savegame
08:35<@peter1138:#openttd>Brianetta, only mere plans, unfortunately, and that was a long time ago :o
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08:40<Brianetta:#openttd>peter1138: You're going to get my therapist bill
08:46<SpComb:#openttd>Celestar: how many unique errors?
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08:56<@Celestar:#openttd>SpComb: haven't analysed
08:56<@Celestar:#openttd>SpComb: try yourself :P
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10:14<fjb:#openttd>Hello
10:18<Brianetta:#openttd>Hello
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10:52<jpm:#openttd>SmatZ: Thanks for fixing FS#2316(Airport deleting) so quickly!
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11:02<@SmatZ:#openttd>jpm: you are welcome :)
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11:22<jack:#openttd>hello
11:23<sulai:#openttd>hi jack
11:23<jack:#openttd>I have one question connected with Open TTD
11:23<hylje:#openttd>just ask
11:23<sulai:#openttd>you're at the right place =)
11:24<jack:#openttd>I have about 100 road vehicle and now all of them are getting old, is any way to replace them quickly?
11:24<ln:#openttd>sulai: you criminal
11:24<sulai:#openttd>In?
11:25<ln:#openttd>no, ln
11:25<sulai:#openttd>jack go to the patch settings, turn "auto renew" on
11:25<ln:#openttd>sulai: you were going to hijack something.
11:25<sulai:#openttd>In?
11:25<jack:#openttd>I have turned this option
11:25<ln:#openttd>In??
11:25<sulai:#openttd>do you habe enough money?
11:26<jack:#openttd>yes, more than needed
11:26<sulai:#openttd>are they going to depot regulary?
11:27<jack:#openttd>they go to depot, when they need
11:27<sulai:#openttd>try "send for servicing" order in the vehicle list
11:27<sulai:#openttd>In: what are you talking about?
11:27<ln:#openttd>sulai: who is this "In" you keep mentioning?
11:28<sulai:#openttd>Oh, sorry I misspelled you
11:28<ln:#openttd>you clearly said something about hijacking:
11:28<ln:#openttd>18:23 < sulai> hi jack
11:28<sulai:#openttd>hehe good one ^^^
11:28<Doorslammer:#openttd>Surprise Badger and so on and so on
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13:04<@peter1138:#openttd>Note: Once you have set a variable's value, you cannot change or modify that value!
13:04<@peter1138:#openttd>^ Does not sound like a variable to me...
13:06<+glx:#openttd>variable constant maybe :)
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13:12<Wolf01:#openttd>hello
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13:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>hi Wolf01 :)
13:39<Wolf01:#openttd>hi TrueBrain :)
13:40<TrueBrain:#openttd>how are you? :)
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13:44<Wolf01:#openttd>I want to say "fine", but I think I'm not
13:44*TrueBrain:#openttd gives Wolf01 a cookie!
13:45<Wolf01:#openttd>thanks :D
13:45<TrueBrain:#openttd>feel better now? :)
13:45<Wolf01:#openttd>yes, a little more
13:45<Wolf01:#openttd>Yesterday I had a LOTR marathon
13:45<Wolf01:#openttd>:O
13:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>*cough* *puke* *cough*
13:46<Wolf01:#openttd>11.5 continued hours of movie
13:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>sick :p
13:47<@Rubidium:#openttd>been there, done that... and then the cinema we were in was closing for the last time
13:49<Wolf01:#openttd>next time might be a matrix marathon, but I need to buy the collector edition first, if it exists
13:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>hehe
13:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>crazy people
13:52<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Wolf01: Only one problem with a Matrix marathon
13:53<Prof_Frink:#openttd>There was only one film. Anyone saying otherwise will be shot.
13:55<Wolf01:#openttd>12 hours of the same film, picture by picture, we'll try to spot every aspect of it
13:58<@Rubidium:#openttd>Prof_Frink: isn't the Matrix a toy to keep us busy about not thinking that we are actually in the Matrix?
13:58<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Rubidium: Whoa.
14:03<Wolf01:#openttd>Another great movie I want to use for a marathon is star wars :O
14:03<Wolf01:#openttd>I need the collector edition too
14:04<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Wolf01: That has the advantage of getting much better half way through
14:04<nckomodo:#openttd>I did a jurassic park marathon on the way back home from virginia
14:04<nckomodo:#openttd>in that I watched the first video and then fell asleep
14:04<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Assuming you haven't smashed the TV at the sight of Jar Jar.
14:04<nckomodo:#openttd>the intent was there
14:04<frosch123:#openttd>Wolf01: you also need a hp marathon for the gfs while you are watching sw
14:06<Wolf01:#openttd>This week I'm trying to finish the Dune marathon... at least the first half, there are at most 100 pages left
14:06<Wolf01:#openttd>and then I'll start the other half
14:08<Wolf01:#openttd>I'm living for read books, watch entire movie series in a day and play OTTD
14:08<Wolf01:#openttd>what-a-life :|
14:08<Wolf01:#openttd>at least there's OTTD :D
14:09<Wolf01:#openttd>I think I'll become civil engineer when I'll grow
14:11<Prof_Frink:#openttd>Concrete merchant.
14:13<Wolf01:#openttd>doh, a wall removed both my front wheels
14:14*Wolf01:#openttd writes on the little black book: try to don't go straight on bends
14:15<TrueBrain:#openttd>add to it: don't eat yellow snow
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15:19<TrueBrain:#openttd>@mode +q *!*Yorick@*
15:19-!-mode/#openttd [+q *!*Yorick@*] by DorpsGek
15:19<TrueBrain:#openttd>maybe then no longer we get the same question over and over here on IRC, and also on the forum (even after answering in multiple ways)
15:21<@peter1138:#openttd>Has he been annoying again?
15:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>yeah ..
15:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>keeps on asking about the flags of the website ... I got that question one too many times of him now ..
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15:29<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: frosch * r14384 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Moving the first vehicle of a train elsewhere might require a new unitnumber for the remaining chain.
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15:29<@Belugas:#openttd>hehe.. and to think people were complaining about my bad temper ^_^
15:30*Belugas:#openttd hugs TrueBrain
15:30<@Belugas:#openttd>MY MASTER!
15:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>hi Belugas :) Nice to see you again :)
15:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>how was your weekend? :)
15:35<@Belugas:#openttd>yuo do not want to know. two words : sick kiddo
15:35<TrueBrain:#openttd>aawwwhhhh
15:35<@Belugas:#openttd>two more? wife panicking
15:35*TrueBrain:#openttd gives Belugas' kiddo a bit of happyness, so he gets well soon :)
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15:43<+glx:#openttd>Belugas: school is nice ;)
15:43<@Belugas:#openttd>right on, glx :)
15:43<@Belugas:#openttd>bring me the viruses!
15:44<+glx:#openttd>which one did he get?
15:45<@Belugas:#openttd>lokks like all of them, according to my wife :D
15:45<@Belugas:#openttd>looks
15:46<+glx:#openttd>mothers aren't a good info source for that
15:46<@Belugas:#openttd>in my mind, it is a simple cold
15:46<@Belugas:#openttd>nope :)
15:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>lol @ glx
15:46<@Belugas:#openttd>at 4:00 in the mornign, she woke me up so i'd bring the kid at hospital. for an "otite"
15:47<+glx:#openttd>I had some
15:47<@Belugas:#openttd>the nurse almost laugh at me:"get him to bed wth some Tampra, it will be fine"
15:47<@Belugas:#openttd>Quentin never had any, that is why my wife was panicking
15:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>poor Belugas :)
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15:48<+glx:#openttd>he was living in a bubble ;)
15:49<@Belugas:#openttd>exactly :)
15:49<@Belugas:#openttd>ow, it's the slap in the face
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15:50<@Belugas:#openttd>but it hurts when he cannot stop crying and saying that it hurts and that there's nothing yo can do :(
15:50<@Belugas:#openttd>hard to be a parent
15:50<+glx:#openttd>of course
15:51<ln:#openttd>except giving pain meds
15:54<@Belugas:#openttd>but all in all, it was an horrible weekend
15:57<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14385 /branches/0.6/ (15 files in 4 dirs): (log message trimmed)
15:57<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk:
15:57<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: - Fix: Invalid v->u.air.targetairport could cause crashes at several places [FS#2300] (r14383, r14344, r14343)
15:57<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: - Fix: Moving the first vehicle of a train elsewhere might require a new unitnumber for the remaining chain which might not be available (r14384)
15:57<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: - Fix: Trams jumping when reversing on a single trambit (like caused during road construction reworks) or when (manually) reversing in a corner [FS#1852] (r14371)
15:57<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: - Fix: Multiheaded parts in free wagon chains weren't connected (could cause desyncs) (r14366, r14362)
15:57<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: - Fix: [Win32] Some keypress combinations could be handled twice [FS#2206] (r14363)
15:58<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: translators * r14386 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
15:58<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-09-22 19:58:30
15:58<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 fixed by tucalipe (3)
15:58<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
15:58<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: english_US - 2 fixed by WhiteRabbit (2)
15:58<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: estonian - 1 fixed by kristjans (1)
15:58<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: french - 1 fixed by glx (1)
15:59<@peter1138:#openttd>Spree
16:00<@Belugas:#openttd>script!
16:01<FauxFaux:#openttd>Wheeeee.
16:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>and why is FauxFaux so happy?
16:02<FauxFaux:#openttd>Stuff is happening!
16:02<@Belugas:#openttd>false... things that were happening have suddenly be made visible
16:04-!-valhalla1w [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:05<@Belugas:#openttd>so whatshyouwhatshyou want?
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16:11<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14387 /branches/0.6/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): [0.6] -Backport from trunk: language updates.
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16:15*Belugas:#openttd moves on to War Pigs
16:15<@Belugas:#openttd>not related to those who want to see tanks been shipped from one corner of the map th the other :P
16:16-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:18<@peter1138:#openttd>I
16:18<@peter1138:#openttd>AM
16:18<@peter1138:#openttd>IRON
16:18<@peter1138:#openttd>MAN
16:18<@Belugas:#openttd>has he lost his mind?
16:18<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>you notice that just now? :p
16:19<@Belugas:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause2, you do not know your classics ;)
16:19<TrueBrain:#openttd>Belugas: in fact, I think he is finding it back, bit by bit
16:19-!-FauxFaux [~faux@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:19<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>Belugas: indeed i don't... at best i know german translation of classics...
16:20<@Belugas:#openttd>very first line of Iron Man, from Black Sabbath : "Has he lost his mind?"
16:20<@Belugas:#openttd>And guess who wrote War Pigs? Black Sabbath
16:20<@Belugas:#openttd>kids these days ...
16:20<@Belugas:#openttd>lol!
16:20<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>and you really expect me to know texts of any song?
16:20<@peter1138:#openttd>They know nothing!
16:20<TrueBrain:#openttd>those old people those days ...
16:20<@Belugas:#openttd>there you go :)
16:21<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14388 /branches/0.6/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
16:21<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: [0.6] -Prepare for 0.6.3-RC1.
16:21<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Fix (r14385): even more of the windowing system changed.
16:21<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>additionally, songs that are not directly in my line of interest...
16:21*Belugas:#openttd runs after TrueBrain, hitting him with a cane
16:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>I am faster anyway
16:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>so .. :p
16:22<@Belugas:#openttd>pfffft
16:22<@Belugas:#openttd>look at the coward climbing that tree...
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16:23<TrueBrain:#openttd>hehehehe :)
16:23<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>i once saw this T-Shirt in a shop, something along the lines of "intelligence is pursuing me, but i am faster." ... after all these years i'm still sad that i didn't buy it...
16:24<TrueBrain:#openttd>I liked the shirt saying: Broken Pixels, all blurred out :p
16:25<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>the t-shirt was fitting me in so many ways...
16:25<Wolf01:#openttd>'night
16:25-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host213-160-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:25<TrueBrain:#openttd>night Wolf01
16:26-!-sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B666D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
16:26<@Belugas:#openttd>see how fast you are? you cannot even say bye before he actuallyis gone :P
16:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>which is REALLY hard with Wolf01
16:27<@Belugas:#openttd>hehe
16:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>I tried to make a habbit to beat him to it ..
16:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>mostly fails :p
16:27<@Belugas:#openttd>try with frosch123 now ;)
16:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>evne more impossible
16:28<frosch123:#openttd>SmatZ beated me once :)
16:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>mind the: once
16:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>lol
16:31<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14389 /tags/0.6.3-RC1/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Release: 0.6.3-RC1.
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16:39<@Belugas:#openttd>the good soldier has performed his duty. time to retreat in the confort of a home sweet home
16:39<@Belugas:#openttd>bye bye
16:41-!-KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-177-31.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
16:45<@SmatZ:#openttd>[22:28:36] <frosch123> SmatZ beated me once :) <== what happened?
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16:45<@SmatZ:#openttd>ahhh :)
16:45<@SmatZ:#openttd>hehehe
16:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>you felt
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17:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>"If it's too loud, you are too old"
17:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>haha :)
17:11<@peter1138:#openttd>Hmm
17:11<@peter1138:#openttd>Does anyone have...
17:11<@peter1138:#openttd>"Hall Of The Mountain Womble"?
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17:25<Tekky:#openttd>Is the OpenTTD binary being distributed legally? Doesn't the source code of libpng, zlib and Freetype also have to be included on the site, since the OpenTTD binary links to them?
17:26-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-86-0-83-170.leed.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
17:26<@peter1138:#openttd>No.
17:27-!-Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-96-107.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
17:27<ln:#openttd>I doubt their licenses say anything about "a site".
17:28<Tekky:#openttd>their licenses? I am talking about the GPL....
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17:28<Tekky:#openttd>peter1138: Does your reply refer to my first or second question?
17:28<ln:#openttd>I didn't know libpng is GPL.
17:28<Tekky:#openttd>ln: it isn't.
17:28<ln:#openttd>See.
17:29<Tekky:#openttd>But as far as I can tell, the distribution of the OpenTTD binary violates the GPL, for the reasons that I stated.
17:29<ln:#openttd>Doesn't the source code of Windows need to be included on the site, because OpenTTD binary links to it?
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17:33<fjb:#openttd>Yes, because everything that gets linked against GPLed code automatically inherits the GPL. So Windoes is automatically licensed under GPL now.
17:33-!-sulai4511 [~Miranda@p5B2B6213.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:33<Tim:#openttd>You are releasing 0.6.3? Is there a changelog somewhere? Anything but bugfixes?
17:33<sulai4511:#openttd>!log
17:33<sulai4511:#openttd>!logs
17:33<SpComb:#openttd>Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
17:33<fjb:#openttd>Microsoft is obviously violating the copyright law.
17:34-!-sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B666D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:36<Tekky:#openttd>ln: No, this in not the case. Here is the text in the GPL which says so:
17:36<Tekky:#openttd>However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable.
17:37<Tekky:#openttd>my last message is a quote of the GPL
17:38<ln:#openttd>What version of DirectX does OTTD require, and is that normally shipped with a) XP, b) 2000, c) 98?
17:38-!-nckomodo [~nckomodo@scottb.carrollwater-wifi0.amplex.net] has quit []
17:38<Brianetta:#openttd>fjb: Microsoft isn't distributing GPL software; how are *they* violating anything?
17:39<fjb:#openttd>Read the GPL.
17:39<Brianetta:#openttd>"Everything that gets linked against GPLed code automatically inherits the GPL" is not true
17:40<Brianetta:#openttd>"Everything linked against GPL'd code must be GPL otherwise the code isn't licensed under the GPL" is true
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17:57<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Tekky, libpng, zlib, and Freetype also fall into the category of operating system libraries.
17:59<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>And in either case, you are never required to provide your own mirror of linked libraries. All you are required to do is provide the sources upon request, or refer to where they can be obtained.
18:02<ln:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: "refer to where they can be obtained" is not enough for GPLv2.
18:05<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>If someone asks you for the libpng sources and you link to the download on libpng.org, that's providing the sources.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>that's a very arguable corner case
18:06<Tekky:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: It is not enough to provide the sources on request. You must provide a written offer for the source code.
18:07<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>...that's what I meant - if someone takes your offer, linking to libpng.org is fulfilling that offer.
18:08<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>If the libpng.org site becomes defunct, then you must provide a different source, or mirror yourself.
18:08<Tekky:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: The GPL uses the word "accompany", not "provide". This imples that it must be available from the same source, in my opinion.
18:08<Tekky:#openttd>therefore, a link is not sufficient.
18:10<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>The files are there, have no further restrictions on download, and are identical to the ones you're using - that's sufficient. There is no difference in linking to your own site or the upstream provider, unless one is defunct.
18:10<Tekky:#openttd>in another place, the GPL uses the word "equivalent access" in this context.
18:10<Tekky:#openttd>providing a link is certainly not "equivalent access" when you provide the binary directly.
18:11<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Binary is available via URL. So are sources.
18:12<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>If you distribute binary on CD, then you may have a point that you should be able to request a CD with sources, but until then any valid URL will do.
18:13<Tekky:#openttd>hmmmm, that's an interesting argument.... it may be valid as long as the other site is up....
18:14<Tekky:#openttd>I just read the GPL again and it explicity states that it must be made available from "the same place:
18:14<Tekky:#openttd>from "the same place":
18:14<ln:#openttd>TinoDidriksen's interpretations cannot be deduced from the GPL.
18:14<Tekky:#openttd>If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering
18:14<Tekky:#openttd>access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent
18:14<Tekky:#openttd>access to copy the source code from the same place counts as
18:14<Tekky:#openttd>distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not
18:15<Tekky:#openttd>compelled to copy the source along with the object code.
18:15<Tekky:#openttd>oh, sorry, I wanted to post this text as one line.
18:16<Tekky:#openttd>if you provide a link to another site on the internet, this obviously does not satisfy the GPLs requirement of "the same place".
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18:19<Tekky:#openttd>Your argument that libpng, zlib and Freetype qualify as OS libraries may be valid. The GPL states the following: "However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that...
18:19<Tekky:#openttd>...component itself accompanies the executable."
18:19<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Hm, hadn't seen that part. Either case for OpenTTD, they're not required to do so until someone actually asks for it, and also not required to do it for standard OS libraries.
18:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>but "the same place" would mean the same .tar.gz (or whatever)
18:19<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Nah, not same archive. Don't need object code and source code in the same archive.
18:19-!-Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-96-107.bredband.comhem.se] has quit []
18:20<@Rubidium:#openttd>unless it is the place from where you offer it
18:20<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Just that the vendor who distributes the binary should also distribute sources upon request.
18:21<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>So if someone requests the libraries, emailing them a few tar.gz's would definetly suffice. And that I know since that's how some court settlements have come out.
18:21<@Rubidium:#openttd>anyhow, IMO that part of the GPL can be explained in at least two ways
18:22<Tekky:#openttd>However, the argument that zlib, libpng and Freetype qualify as OS libraries obviously does not apply to Windows.
18:22<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Even on Win32 you're only required to do anything upon request. Not required to maintain a mirror 24/7 just in case.
18:23<@Rubidium:#openttd>how does something like firefox do it? they have lawyers that oversee whether they do it correctly
18:24<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Firefox does not use GPL libraries.
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18:26<Tekky:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: A court settlement is an agreement between two parties and is not a legal judgement. Therefore, the result of a court settlement does not imply anything about the legal situation.
18:30<@Rubidium:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: Firefox uses libfreetype, libfontconfig, zlib1g and libpng
18:31*peter1138:#openttd hmms at variable 1C
18:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>Firefox is can furthermore be licensed under GPL (or at least many many many parts of it)
18:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>just search for GPL in their source tree
18:31-!-rortom [~rortom@p57B7E7DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:33<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Freetype is BSD, FontConfig is MIT, zlib is BSD-style, libpng is zlib license. None are GPL.
18:33<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Firefox itself is tripple-licences as MPL, GPL, and LGPL.
18:34*peter1138:#openttd gets confused by Pikka's code :o
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18:35<@Rubidium:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: so if you tripple or whatever-how-many-but-more-than-one license you can cherry pick the rules you like from those licenses and distribute using that?
18:36<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>You have to pick one license and stick to that. MySQL does the same with a GPL and a commercial proprietary version.
18:37<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>But Firefox and MySQL can allow that because they own the project wholly - they do not use GPL code themselves.
18:38<Ammler:#openttd>the OpenGFX license is coming to a end, GPL! :-)
18:38-!-welshdragon [~vista@83.100.249.30] has joined #openttd
18:39<@Rubidium:#openttd>so opengfx must now distribute grfcodec and boost to be legal?
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18:40<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Nah, Boost is BSD-style, not copyleft.
18:41<@Rubidium:#openttd>but opengfx requires grfcodec and grfcodec requires boost
18:41<Ammler:#openttd>Has ordude a license for sample.cat?
18:41<Ammler:#openttd>or will there come the same again?
18:41<Ammler:#openttd>orudge: ^
18:42<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Anyways, Tekky, http://gpl-violations.org/ is good reading for that has worked with regards to GPL. Actual court judgements, injunctions, settlements, etc.
18:43-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:43<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>GRFCodec is GPL, but when you distribute the source you don't need to include Boost as that's not GPL.
18:44<@Rubidium:#openttd>so WHY do we have to include zlib and friends?
18:44<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>You don't if they are not GPL, which they are not. Only to the GPL parts.
18:45<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>...or a written offer redeemable for the sources...
18:45<Tekky:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: Thx, that link is very interesting
18:47<Tekky:#openttd>Rubidium: The thing is that openttd.org also distributes BINARIES of OpenTTD, not only source code.
18:48<Tekky:#openttd>Rubidium: and these binaries are linked to zlib, etc.
18:48<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>But still, zlib source would never be required as that's not a GPL library. If OpenTTD does link against GPL libraries, then written offers for the source of those should be included.
18:49<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>you are speaking rubbish
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18:50<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>No, that's the core of the GPL...
18:50<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>all libraries that a GPL program links to must be either "system" or "GPL (compatible)"... you cannot link to anything else (and distribute the binary)
18:51<@Rubidium:#openttd>yeah, we could ofcourse remove all binaries
18:51<@Rubidium:#openttd>makes life much easier
18:51<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>i'd definitely call zlib etc. a "system" library
18:51<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Incorrect. A GPL program can link against a closed source library without problems - but a closed source program cannot link against a GPL library without adhering to the GPL.
18:51<Tekky:#openttd><TinoDidriksen> But still, zlib source would never be required as that's not a GPL library. <-- I disagree with this. The GPL requires that the source code of all modules the GPL program links to be made available. Therefore, it is irrelevant whether zlib, etc. is GPL or not.
18:52<Tekky:#openttd>Eddi: On the linux platform yes, but definately not on the Windows platform.
18:52<@Rubidium:#openttd>Tekky: that is YOUR interpretation of the piece of ambiguous legalish
18:53<Ammler:#openttd>what is the problem, no source for zlib available?
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>Tekky: there are windows compile environments that come with zlib
18:53<Tekky:#openttd>Eddi: So your argument does not apply to distributing the Windows binary, as far as I can tell.
18:53<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>If Closed uses GPL, Closed must be GPL'ed -- if GPL uses Closed, nothing happens to Closed.
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>yes, it's a grey area, but a very light grey...
18:54*Rubidium:#openttd reads the blob Tekky pasted 40 minutes ago as:
18:54<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: if GPL links to closed, and closed does not fall under the system clause, GPL cannot be legally distributed in binary form
18:54<DaleStan:#openttd><TinoDidriksen> if GPL uses Closed <-- then closed must be licensed in a way that permits it to be redistributed under the GPL.
18:55<DaleStan:#openttd>Or there must be a special exception that permits the GPL'ed work to be linked with the closed-source work.
18:56<+glx:#openttd>like any exe running on windows?
18:56<@Rubidium:#openttd>if distributing a binary is done by offering access (e.g. linking) from a designated place (e.g. openttd's website), then offering access (e.g. linking) of said source should be done from the same place (e.g. openttd's website)
18:58<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: a library that is linked to by GPL does not fall under the "system" rule, where you don't have to do anything, you have to provide the source, no matter if the library is GPL or not
18:58<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>else you cannot distribute your program under the GPL
18:58-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:59<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>As I recall, that depends on whether you're doing dynamic or static linking. Static you're right - dynamic does not require it.
19:00<DaleStan:#openttd><glx> like any exe running on windows? <-- That's covered by the system library exception.
19:00<Tekky:#openttd>Rubidium: I doubt that any judge would regard providing a link as "offering equivalent access (...) from the same place".
19:00<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>the GPL does not state anything about static or dynamic
19:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>Tekky: in that case Debian is not following GPL
19:01<Tekky:#openttd>unless that link is on the same server.
19:01<Tekky:#openttd>or at least on the same internet site.
19:02<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>no, the link to the source must be on the same place as the link to the binary
19:02<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>GPL itself does not mention type of linking, but it has been discussed rather widely since dynamic linking allows for drop-in replacement libraries which may not be GPL.
19:02<DaleStan:#openttd>The FSF says different sites is OK: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#SourceAndBinaryOnDifferentSites Even different protocol is OK: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#AnonFTPAndSendSources
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19:02<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>where the files actually are does not matter (as long as access is "equivalent")
19:04<@Rubidium:#openttd>but maybe downloading != downloading
19:04<Tekky:#openttd>DaleStan: thx for the link, very intersting
19:04<Tekky:#openttd>Eddi: ah, yes, I think you are right.
19:07<Tekky:#openttd>"the same place" just means that the same page that provides a link to the binary must also provide a link to the source code......
19:08<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Not even. As long as the written offer is in the distribution, which it is, then people know who to contact for the source, should they so desire.
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19:09<@peter1138:#openttd>There are a million-and-one other projects that depend on libraries and don't include their source. Why do you think OpenTTD should be any different?
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19:14<Tekky:#openttd>I see one problem, though. OpenTTD may link to the zlib homepage, but it does not state anywhere which version was used for compiling the binaries. Therefore, I wouldn't consider this a valid link to the source code.
19:20<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>It isn't required. All that's required is that when someone asks for the source, you provide it to them. Providing a link on the OTTD site is the shortcut where people don't need to ask in most cases, and the few who do ask can do so via IRC/email/letter/etc.
19:20<@Belugas:#openttd>peter1138, maybe because people love to argue and make THEIR point the Holy Graal of Truth
19:20<@Belugas:#openttd>I'M RIGHT,YOUR"RE NOT
19:20<@Belugas:#openttd>"do you know waht you are talking about?" "Yes, I've read it on the Internet"
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19:21<@Belugas:#openttd>off-"topic": Phantasm, are you pleased with the "fix" ?
19:22<Tekky:#openttd>but the main question is, is "zlib" a library that is "normally distributed" with the "major components of the operating system". Under Linux, I would say yes, but this does not apply to the Windows platform, I would say. Therefore, I believe that the distribution of Windows binaries requires the source code of zlib, libpng, etc. be made available.
19:24<Tekky:#openttd>Eddi pointed out that there are Windows compile environments that include zlib. I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, if these compile environments are not used for building the binary.
19:26<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>It's still not a GPL library. The normal way of distributing zlib on Win32 is via zlib1.dll, which is not part of the GPL exe.
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19:30<Tekky:#openttd>even if you use dynamic linkage, it is still a "module", however, it is not a "module" that the "executable work" "contains". Hmmmm, according to this wording, there is a significant difference between static and dynamic linkage, but I once read that these two types of linkage are treated legally the same?
19:31<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>that's what the "no matter how they are packaged" part of the GPL is supposed to clarify
19:31<Tekky:#openttd>from what I read in the GPL, I tend to agree with TinoDidriksen's view that it matters whether it is dynamically or statically linked.
19:32<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>the GPL specifically refers to "links to", and not "part of"
19:32<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>and that means both ways of linkage
19:32<Tekky:#openttd>are you talking about version 3 of the GPL? I cannot find any of the quotations you use in version 2?
19:33<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>RMS thinks dynamic and static are the same, but he obviously would. Legal people are not so sure, because the object code really isn't part of the distributed binary. It links to a few headers, but the library itself can be replaced with any interface-compatible DLL/.so.
19:34<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>some parts of what i said may be GPLv3 specific, i don't have the text in front of me right now
19:34<+glx:#openttd>OpenTTD uses v2
19:35<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>i know
19:35<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>which in such disputed cases may be the better choice :)
19:35<@peter1138:#openttd>v2 or above.
19:35<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>openttd is not "or above"
19:36<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>at least not last time licenses were discussed
19:36<@peter1138:#openttd>That standard v2 includes "any later version"
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19:37<ln:#openttd>the website doesn't.
19:38<ln:#openttd>also what matters is what ludde wrote.
19:39<ln:#openttd>peter1138: By that definition, "licensed under GPLv2" would always mean the same as "under GPLv2 or later".
19:41<Ammler:#openttd>:-) Tekky, but zlib is availabe, I don't see your problem...
19:41<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Famous example of no "any later version" is the Linux kernel. No v3 for that.
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19:42<Tekky:#openttd>the GPL states the following, which imples that "any later version" is not default:
19:43<Tekky:#openttd>If the Program specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that version or of any later version published by the Free Software Foundation.
19:43<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>And you can remove that part from it.
19:44<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>And many did as they weren't comfortable with the whole license being magically allowed under a later version.
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19:44<Tekky:#openttd>Ammler: This is just a discussion about whether the OpenTTD site is complying with the terms of the GPL.
19:45<ln:#openttd>Soooo what happens if I license something under GPLv4 or later?
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19:45<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Anywho, back to OTTD, it does not currently have to do anything extra. It's in compliance with the GPL; the dist includes the COPYING file.
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19:47<ccfreak2k:#openttd>The OpenTTD source code has been made available. Doesn't that count as being compliant?
19:47<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Besides, OTTD project itself cannot technically violate the GPL for their own code as they are the copyright holders. Only if others were to distribute OTTD would they have to comply.
19:49<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>(and here I am not sure whether grfcodec is an in-house subproject or a 3rd party library)
19:50<ln:#openttd>(or whether OTTD project is the copyright holder for what was taken from Chris Sawyer's work)
19:51<DaleStan:#openttd><TinoDidriksen> (and here I am not sure whether grfcodec is an in-house subproject or a 3rd party library) <-- That's like trying to call GCC a third-party library.
19:52<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>No, I mean I am really not sure who owns grfcodec.
19:52<Tekky:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: The OpenTTD code was made by many developers. Therefore, even if all current OpenTTD developers agree to not use the GPL anymore, this would be a copyright infringement of the work of the previous OpenTTD developers and all people who made patches that were eventually submitted into trunk. Of course, the copyright infringement of the original TTD game is a completely different...
19:52<Tekky:#openttd>...issue.
19:53<DaleStan:#openttd>Josef and I, mostly. I know Tron contributed some, and I think minime did too.
19:53<Tekky:#openttd>Therefore, the current OpenTTD team is bound by the GPL.
19:57<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>That's what copyright assignation is for. But, ln is correct that OTTD as a whole is technically illegal for another 100 years since it contains reverse-engineered code.
19:57<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Even so, zlib when distributed as a dynamic library does not need source; you don't link against zlib, but against a few headers which define the interface, and those headers are all that's required.
19:57<Tekky:#openttd>by the way, I think OpenTTD also violates section 1 of the GPL, because it doesn't carry conspicuous dislaimers of warranty.
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19:59<Tekky:#openttd>At least I have never noticed any disclaimer of warranty in my 3 years of playing OpenTTD, except when I once opened the COPYING file.
20:00<Ammler:#openttd>maybe they like to provide warranty?
20:00<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Isn't that part of the GPL itself? Pretty sure there's such a section further in it.
20:01<Tekky:#openttd>Tino: yes, it is....
20:01<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Indeed. Section 11 and 12 is that disclaimer.
20:02<Tekky:#openttd>but section 1 requires an additional "conspicuous" dislaimer.
20:02<Tekky:#openttd>dislaimer = disclaimer
20:02<Ammler:#openttd>means, you cant sold GPL software with warranty?
20:02<Tekky:#openttd>Ammler: no, you can....
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20:03<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Conspicious is legal terms for UPPER CASE...it's required to stand out from the normal text, basically.
20:03<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Plain texts use UPPER CASE, rich texts use bold face or similar.
20:05<Ammler:#openttd>good developers give their software WITH warranty, not?
20:06<Ammler:#openttd>so disclaimer should ususally not be needed.
20:06<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>One would think so, but it is very very rare to find warranty on software.
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20:07<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Software simply has too many factors for misbehavior to make warranty worth it. Insurance companies would faint...
20:07<ln:#openttd>Not showing a disclaimer of warranty is a kind of strange requirement... If you don't, who is going to sue whom?
20:07<ln:#openttd>OTTD team sues OTTD team?
20:07<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>The requirement is to show a disclaimer of warranty.
20:07<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Or a warranty.
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20:08<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>But one is in the GPL, so that's taken care of by default.
20:08<ln:#openttd>Errr.. Yes, that's what I meant, although wrote the opposite. (A disguise.)
20:08<Ammler:#openttd>and what is the default?
20:08<Ammler:#openttd>disclaimer of warranty?
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20:09<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Yeah
20:09<Ammler:#openttd>sad
20:09<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>I actually don't know of any software that has warranty...
20:09<Ammler:#openttd>that implies that "default" dev makes bad code.
20:09<ln:#openttd>Purely theoretically, *who* could sue OTTD team for the fact that they don't show a disclaimer despite required to do so by GPL?
20:10<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Devs of grfcodec could.
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20:11<Ammler:#openttd>TinoDidriksen: http://juhui.ch/typo3/ <-- "Warranty is supplied by Jud Informatik+Grafik GmbH..."
20:11<ln:#openttd>Mmm.. Why not.
20:11<Ammler:#openttd>I guess, it is quite usual for paid software, isn't?
20:12<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>There's service contracts, uptime contracts, and all such things, but not actual warranty.
20:13<Ammler:#openttd>well, we fixed software bugs for free mostly.
20:13<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Typo3 doesn't specify what warranty they have, just that they have some...
20:14<Ammler:#openttd>it isn't give by TYPO3, it is the web developer who gives warranty.
20:14<Ammler:#openttd>TYPO3 != Jud Grafik+Internet
20:15<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>They probably mean backup service then.
20:15<@peter1138:#openttd>Ammler's clearly on another planet.
20:15<Ammler:#openttd>:-)
20:17<Ammler:#openttd>peter1138: don't you supply warranty for your work?
20:18<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Warranty implies liability for bugs, which simply does not happen in software - dev houses will fix bugs, but they damn well won't pay if a bug wipes data.
20:18<Ammler:#openttd>also Dell won't do that, if I lost my data, they just give me a new HD
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20:20<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>E.g., given the wrong parameters, OTTD could format your hdd despite that not being part of the documented behavior. Warranty would imply that you're liable for such a malfunction - but you have no way to prevent it as you can't control the environment OTTD runs in 100%.
20:21<Ammler:#openttd>warranty can't include such things
20:21<Ammler:#openttd>quite obvious
20:22<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>You'd be amazed...USA litigation happy people can find you liable for damn near anything unless you disclaim almost any and all warranty.
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20:24<Ammler:#openttd>:-)
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20:29<TinoDidriksen:#openttd>Writing code good enough to stand against that would be quite something...and slow with all the extra checks you'd have to make.
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21:12<roboboy:#openttd>fixing a problem with mibbit
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22:27<@Belugas:#openttd>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=39708 <-- there we are... press a button and look at the game do it all for you
22:27<@Belugas:#openttd>baaaahhh
22:32<roboboy:#openttd>stupid person
22:33*roboboy:#openttd wonders if he should post his suggestion for taxis that he once posted a few years ago in (he thinks) TTDPatch suggestions
22:34<roboboy:#openttd>if I have pengfx and the original grfs, will openttd ask me on startup which to use even if the md5 on the orriginal grfs arent right?
22:36<@Belugas:#openttd>no
22:36<@Belugas:#openttd>it is not a switch matter
22:36<@Belugas:#openttd>it is still programmed to have original grfs as defaults
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22:43<roboboy:#openttd>ok
22:43<roboboy:#openttd>even though my copies do not have the correct md5?
22:48<@Belugas:#openttd>what does it has to do with opengfx?
22:48<@Belugas:#openttd>the fact that your original grfs fail at md5 tests means they have been tempered
22:48<@Belugas:#openttd>that's all
22:49<@Belugas:#openttd>the system will not say..."ho my god! wrong files... quick, check to see if we have opengfx nearby. We do? Cooll!! screw the original then"
22:50<@Belugas:#openttd>it's rather "WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! YOUR ORIGINAL FILES ARE NOT VIRGINAL (or tempered if you do not like the word)"
22:50<@Belugas:#openttd>but that's it
22:52<@Belugas:#openttd>bed time now
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23:00<xsak:#openttd>hi all
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23:23<roboboy:#openttd>ok
23:25<roboboy:#openttd>do trailers on artic rvs get counted as rvs towards your rv count?
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 23 00:00:39 2008