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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-09-29

---Logopened Mon Sep 29 00:00:53 2008
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05:35<fjb>Hello
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06:09<petererer>locinrek
06:09<petererer>err
06:10<Forked>passwd next? =p
06:12<petererer>Nah
06:13<petererer>Was only a website password.
06:25<fjb>:-)
06:25<fjb>Doesn't sound secure anyway.
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07:43<petererer>TrueBrain, is there a way to link to a specific game server on the website by ip address / port?
07:43<petererer>Rather than knowing the magic table index...
07:43<TrueBrain>might be worth adding
07:44<TrueBrain>although once given an index, it will remain valid as long as your server is online at least once in the 3 months
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08:02<roboboy>hello
08:02<keyweed>hi
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08:09<roboboy>bye
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08:24<@Celestar>heyo
08:24<@Celestar>SmatZ: you there?
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08:34*fjb can't play without cargodest anymore...
08:37<Noldo>what's wrong?
08:38<Ammler>:-)
08:45<Tim>When can we expect CargoDest to hit Trunk? :)
08:46<@Celestar>Tim: when I've got around to brining it up to coding standards mostly
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08:51<fjb>Next step after that will be load ballancing? Or is that too cpu intensive.
08:52<fjb>?
08:52<@Celestar>fjb: it's not.
08:52<@Celestar>fjb: I'm working on it, but it will not be put online before v1 is merged imho
08:53<fjb>That is great news. Load ballancing is the only thing I'm missing right now.
08:53<@Celestar>load-balance yourself :P
08:55<fjb>How? One bus making a direct connection can change the way the passengers want to take dramatically. And you can not always be aware of that beforehand. It is not obvious that the new route will be shorter sometimes.
08:56<fjb>Btw: I think it is the right step to bring a stable cargodest into trunk before starting to add features.
08:57<petererer>Hey Celestar.
08:57<petererer>There are still some cache issues in cargodest :(
08:59<@Celestar>petererer: there are?
08:59<@Celestar>where how?
09:01<petererer>Refitting may have been involved.
09:02<petererer>I had a route, added a wagon, refitted it, but the small map route map did not show the route
09:02<petererer>That's fail 1.
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09:02<petererer>I tweak the order list, so then it did appear in the route map
09:02<petererer>But rn dl (or whatever the secret incantation is) did not show anything
09:03<petererer>Then I disconnected and rejoined, and immediately desynced, until I called rn rr, upon which everything worked fine.
09:05<@Celestar>petererer: ok I shall debug this over this week. do you have some sample savegame?
09:12<petererer>'Fraid not, but I'll try to reproduce my steps tonight.
09:12<@Celestar>k thanks a bunch
09:13<petererer>Clearly Ammler's ottdcoop lot do not do thorough testing on their cargodest server ;)
09:14<petererer>Did you ever make a command to dump all the routing network state, including caches?
09:14<petererer>To compare before and after rn rr
09:17<Ammler>?
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09:21<@Celestar>petererer: I think I have a diff .......... somewhere
09:21<@Celestar>petererer: I'll go looking for it tomorrow
09:29<@Belugas>[08:52] <fjb> That is great news. Load ballancing is the only thing I'm missing right now. <--- if only everyone could agree on that... Somehow, i doubt that TOTALLY
09:29<@Belugas>people always wnat THE other thing that is not in there yet
09:29<@Belugas>whatever THE other thing might be...
09:30<fjb>Hm, infrastructure sharing and Peter's work on different rail and road tile sets come to my mind. :-P
09:31<fjb>Thanks for reminding me Belugas.
09:32<@Belugas>welcome
09:32<fjb>:-)
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09:37<petererer>Heh
09:40<Ammler>Belugas: would be sad, if not :P
09:40<Ammler>else you were finished...
09:41<@Belugas>ho... far from it...
09:41<Ammler>:-D
09:41<@Belugas>it would simply means that nobody would beg eternally about THAT feature inclusion...
09:42<TrueBrain>bah, one thing that does need fixing for PBS, is that trains don't get through a signal based on their vehicleID, but rather on the time they are waiting for a junction :)
09:42<fjb>And what news should OpenTTD 0.8, 0.9 etc. offer if there would be no more wishes and ideas?
09:43<fjb>Oh, vehicle ID is the order creteria? I always wondered what it is.
09:44<Ammler>TrueBrain: is that that way for other signal types?
09:44<@Belugas>fjb, we do not wait for users to develop our own ideas
09:44<TrueBrain>no
09:45<Ammler>something I liked from the old release was that trains wait for a short time until they start if the signal change from red to green
09:45<fjb>More ideas is better. You have more ideas to chose from and take the best of them.
09:45<Ammler>so a fast train on an other signal don't have to stop accidentially.
09:46<Ammler>a "built in" prio :-)
09:46<@Belugas>some ideas are so far fetched, or so lazyness oriented that it makes me want to puke all over the place
09:46<TrueBrain>grrr @ game ... why isn't non-stop on by default :(
09:46<@Belugas>FIX IT!
09:46<fjb>Just ignore them or laugh about them. Some ideas are really funny.
09:47<@Belugas>oh... TrueBrain can effetively fix that hhehe
09:47<Ammler>many default settings are based on TTD instead of logic...
09:47<@Belugas>fjb, that' was i was saying... they keep on beging for THAT idea/feature to be included :(
09:48<@Belugas>wheel's turning round and round
09:48<@Belugas>Ammler, of course, since we are based on TTD :P
09:48<TrueBrain>PBS is getting used to :p
09:48<fjb>Let them...
09:48<@Belugas>and the maion problem with :logic" is that everyone has its own logic :P
09:49<Ammler>of course, specially me :P
09:49<@Belugas>yup :)
09:49*Ammler is mostly incompatible to you ;-)
09:49<@Belugas>that was my next comment ;)
09:50<TrueBrain>whoho, deadlocks .. lovely :)
09:50<fjb>Belugas: Do you have kids? :-) Kids make an endless effort to accomplish hopeless things.
09:51<@Belugas>I do have one indeed. My kid knows his limits, and when he wants to go further, he asks me if it's possible and if so, how
09:51<@Belugas>raised him welll :)
09:51<fjb>Once you get used to that you can only smile about the people begging for their ideas.
09:52<fjb>You raised him very well.
09:52<@Belugas>there was that lego train he was drooling on. he could not do it, since it was just an add. He asked me, we've found the plans at lego.com. Togueter, we started builduing it
09:53<fjb>Nice. Lego is fun.
09:53<@Belugas>fjb : Worse question asked : "I wonder what devs think of it" a dev answers, ends up in fierce battle
09:54<@Belugas>yeah, i do love Lego. Endless fun :)
09:54<@Belugas>evne more with the new shapes they added !
09:54<fjb>Yeah, I wish I had that cool trains when I was a kid.
09:55<TrueBrain>Civ IV on the XBox SUCKS
09:55<Gekz>Oh man it does
09:56<Gekz>it truely does
09:56<Gekz>TrueBrain: please dont tell me you bought it
09:56<Gekz>or I'll have to cry for you
09:56<fjb>TrueBrain: Play OpenTTD. :-)
09:56<Gekz>I play OpenTTD and freeciv
09:56<Gekz>barely anything else.
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09:56<TrueBrain>Gekz: I can't remember the last time I bought an xbox game :p
09:56<TrueBrain>hehehe
09:56<TrueBrain>fjb: doing so
09:56<TrueBrain>getting annoyed by the small 'problems' ..
09:57<Gekz>such as
09:57<fjb>I play Civ III sometimes. Most of the time OpenbTTD or Neverwinter Nights.
09:57<TrueBrain>not-default non-stop, took me a while to figure out why it was unloading in the wrong drive-through
09:57<TrueBrain>NewGRFs can be VERY unclear in what a train can be
09:58<TrueBrain>I somehow completely fail to build a certain train
09:58<fjb>Worst investment was Age of Empires. :-( But it was only 10€.
09:58<TrueBrain>one complains it doesn't have an engine (but it does ... as the info tells me it does!)
09:58<TrueBrain>and for the other I can't find any wagon I can attach to it
09:58<TrueBrain>so annoying
09:58<fjb>TrueBrain: Which train set?
09:59<Ammler>I have a Neverwinter Nights CD here, but I guess, didn't play it longer then one hour in total...
09:59<TrueBrain>fjb: dunno .. beta7 of openttdcoop most likely (the grfset, that is)
09:59<TrueBrain>no idea what is in it :p
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09:59<fjb>Neverwinter Nights is fun if you are into roleplaying with other people.
10:00<fjb>Ammler: Which train set is TrueBrain using?
10:00<Ammler>:-D
10:00<Ammler>we have almost every set in the pack :-P
10:00<fjb>TrueBrain: Do you habve a screenshot somewhere?
10:01<TrueBrain>and damn, I am good in creating deadlocks
10:01<fjb>:-)
10:01<Ammler>TrueBrain: it might be worth to update the pack.
10:01<fjb>I once had a deadlock at that 3 platform station I showed here yesterday.
10:02<TrueBrain>Ammler: most likely
10:03<TrueBrain>I don't really have an idea yet what is smart with PBS signals
10:03<Ammler>mäh, that does help for solving conflicts: http://paste.openttd.org/114154
10:03<Ammler>(OT btw.)
10:03<Ammler>TrueBrain: it is a little bit other gameplay then with TTDP, if you know PBS from there...
10:04<Ammler>much easier, imo.
10:04<TrueBrain>never played TTDp in my life
10:04<Ammler>he
10:04<Ammler>how did you find OpenTTD then?
10:05<Ammler>I guess, over linux
10:05<TrueBrain>no
10:05<TrueBrain>I had Windows back then
10:05<fjb>I found OpenTTD by looking into the list of games supported by wine. :-)
10:05<TrueBrain>and I liked TTD
10:06<TrueBrain>I remember one of my first games with TTD
10:06<TrueBrain>which is scary, as that is like 11 years ago or so
10:06<Ammler>yeah, was my 1. pc game
10:07<TrueBrain>I even remember I won from the AI
10:07<TrueBrain>an dI was proud about that
10:07<Ammler>lol
10:07<petererer>I've only ever loaded up TTDP to compare NewGRF... and then only once or twice.
10:07<Ammler>I fast found out to play without...
10:07<Ammler>I played TTDP in times version <2
10:08<petererer>Heh, faded from Jarre's Fifth Rendez-vous into Down In It...
10:08<TrueBrain>and it is not because I don't like TTDp or what ever
10:08<TrueBrain>just never played it
10:08<TrueBrain>still no way to add all grfs at once?
10:09<Ammler>well, you can't dislike TTDP and still like TTD, imo.
10:09<TrueBrain>Ammler: just wanted to make perfectly clear I have nothing against TTDp, as people will copy what I said and put it out of context
10:09<TrueBrain>wouldn't be the first time
10:10<Ammler>OpenTTD Dev hates Patch :P
10:10<TrueBrain>how fucking annoying ... /me is happy to know bash
10:11<TrueBrain>Ammler: I once said I hated newgrf because it is a stupid format, and it was put out context that all developers hated newgrf and they want to remove it
10:11<TrueBrain>having a personal opinion is something not all people understand :)
10:12<TrueBrain>Ammler: there are too many grfs in the grfpack :(
10:13<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: have you ever seen the "proposal" of Eddi|zuHause for a new grf language?
10:13<Ammler>TrueBrain: do you want one of my Presets?
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10:13<TrueBrain>Ammler: please do
10:13<Ammler>the current cargodest game has a nice.
10:13<TrueBrain>gimme
10:15<@Belugas>[10:09] <Ammler> OpenTTD Dev hates Patch :P <--bullocks! That is completely false
10:15<Ammler>(that's why my smile)
10:16<@Belugas>well... for the record... i don't hate it
10:16<Ammler>you took it out from context :P
10:16<@Belugas>that, yu can quote
10:16<nicfer>we do what TTDPatch don't
10:16<nicfer>Sega's commercial parody
10:16<TrueBrain>Ammler: see my problem :)
10:16<@Belugas>Ammler, my availabiltiy of InContest converstation is VERY limited... so... sorry
10:16<@Celestar>ll
10:17<TrueBrain>Belugas is exactly doing what I complain about when you make such statements .. it is put out of context directly after you said it :(
10:17<Ammler>TrueBrain: http://paste.openttd.org/114173 with GRFPack 7.2
10:17<TrueBrain>ls
10:17<TrueBrain>Ammler: include it in the packs :)
10:18<Ammler>hmm
10:18<Ammler>it liks to trunk/
10:18<TrueBrain>hehe
10:18-!-petererer is now known as peter1138
10:18<TrueBrain>so I noticed :)
10:19<@Belugas>ok ok... /me is retiring from IRC up until he can be concentrated on it
10:19<TrueBrain>no worries, will fetch trunk ;)
10:19<Ammler>TrueBrain: the GRFs ARE from the pack
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10:19<TrueBrain>Ammler: so symlinking .. :p
10:19*peter1138 symlinks Ammler to /dev/null
10:19<TrueBrain>too lazy to rewrite the 'trunk' to the dirname :p
10:20<TrueBrain>ini: ignoring invalid NewGRF 'trunk/8_vehicles/road_vehicles/grvts/egrvts.grf': not found
10:21<TrueBrain>Ammler: lier lier, your pants are on fire!
10:21<Ammler>that grf is also in the pack
10:21<Ammler>just another place :-)
10:22<peter1138>LIAR!
10:22<TrueBrain>peter1138: haha, oops :)
10:23<TrueBrain>Ammler: at least with trunk, it works :p
10:24<Ammler>in which order does OpenTTD search for GRFs?
10:24<Ammler>as trunk is after ottdc_grfpack
10:24<TrueBrain>haha, cool, realistic maglev :p
10:24<Ammler>Transraipid
10:25<Ammler>NARS and UKRS has also trains for it.
10:25<Ammler>(and 2cc)
10:26<Ammler>as you can load tons of vehicle set at once :P
10:26*peter1138 ponders removing that.
10:27<Ammler>we don't use it mostly
10:27<Ammler>only for RVs
10:28<Ammler>well, for eyecandy with the transparency train.
10:32<TrueBrain>wow, expensive trains ..
10:33<Ammler>that is "normal" for most big train sets.
10:34<TrueBrain>max loan, and I can't buy one :)
10:34<Ammler>year?
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10:34<Ammler>did you add other sets?
10:34<TrueBrain>2050
10:35<+glx>2050 set?
10:35<+glx>the limit is around 60 IIRC
10:35<Ammler>glx: the year.
10:35<+glx>I know ;)
10:35<TrueBrain>Ammler: only load your grfs
10:35<TrueBrain>(removed the rest :p)
10:36<Ammler>on 2050, you should have billions
10:36<TrueBrain>start-year ...
10:37<TrueBrain>starting in 1990 seems more doable :p
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10:46<TrueBrain>Ammler: ieuw, ugly busses :(
10:47<Ammler>egrvts
10:48<Ammler>I am not that much in love whith those, too.
10:49<TrueBrain>http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/cargodest_problem1.png
10:49<TrueBrain>why is that in red?
10:50<TrueBrain>I first had the busses load in the first 2 stations, and unload in the last; I then changed it to just load and unload how ever they want, and now I have this red line ..
10:50<peter1138>Cos there are bugs ;)
10:51*dih randomly hugs TrueBrain
10:51<TrueBrain>well, go fix thisone then ;)
10:52<TrueBrain>removing the orders from the list and readding them solved it ..
10:54<TrueBrain>:)
10:54<Ammler> TrueBrain, you need space for signals at your station
10:55<Ammler>only terminus stations don't need them and your looks like will change to roro
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10:56<TrueBrain>Ammler: evne non terminus will do fine in this case
10:56<TrueBrain>but look closely ;)
10:57<TrueBrain>can you make a bus wait at a station till an other bus is arriving?
10:58<Ammler>trigger timetable
10:58<TrueBrain>still doesn't allow me to do that
10:59<TrueBrain>all this advanced order system, and such useful stuff still missing :)
11:00<Ammler>you can trigger a bus waiting at station until the 2. arrives, that should work fine.
11:01<Ammler>you should use timetables, else you will have soon the buses with same order in one wave.
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11:01<TrueBrain>I don't see how I can set something that a bus stays at a station (or until full of course), and leave as soon as an other bus arrives ..
11:02<TrueBrain>timetable is nice, but unloading doesn't always consume the same amount of time, making it not always like I would want :(
11:02<TrueBrain>double clikc still doesn't work on many windows
11:02<TrueBrain>like timetable ..
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11:19<fjb>The german road vehicles set has nice busses but sadly no trucks. And it modifies the base cost so it is not usefull together with other road vehicle sets.
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>don't forget that it's an unfinished set...
11:20<@Celestar>wth
11:20<@Celestar>the Ares V has been uprated to 188 tons :o
11:21<fjb>Yes, but it will probably least months to years to complete it if not new developper shows up.
11:22<fjb>What happened to the discussion about extending the type of the vehicle costs so the grf does not have to modify the base cost?
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11:25<Ammler>fjb: that would solve the problem with existing sets, better would be to "bind" the basecost to the grf itself only.
11:25<peter1138>No it wouldn't
11:25<Ammler>(imo) :-)
11:25<peter1138>Your opinion is worth jackshit
11:26<fjb>But sets are using sometimes unobvious base costs. And it would make the grfs which change the base costs to make things expensive useless.
11:27<TrueBrain>bah, yet again no money to buy a second train ..
11:27-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@129.187.69.65] has quit [Quit: leaving]
11:27<fjb>And modifying a small variable for the cost and modifying some base cost is still limiting. The best way would be to introduce an extended variable for the cost. Something like the extended date.
11:28<Ammler>peter1138: well, of course only those basecosts for vehicels, still "jackshit"?
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11:28<peter1138>Still.
11:28<@Belugas>fjb, coud you explain hw it would help?
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11:29<@Belugas>note: there is a concern aobut costs been overriden by different grfs. So, how does your solutin fixes it?
11:29<fjb>Ammler: The grf is free to use not only the base cost intended for the vehicles in the set. So if a set need some very cheap and some very expensive vehicles it would need to use two different bases.
11:30<@Belugas>thing is, base costs modification should not be allowed, imho
11:30<fjb>Just let the base cost be like it is. But make the variable for the cost longer. So the set can have a wide variety of costs without modifying the default base cost.
11:31<@Belugas>wide variety of costs?
11:31<@Belugas>how?
11:31<peter1138>by increasing the cost factor from a byte to a word/dword
11:31<fjb>If somebody wants to raise the cost aof a verhicle class he can modify the base cost.
11:31<fjb>peter1138: That is what I tried to explain with my bad english.
11:32<peter1138>I know :)
11:32<fjb>Thank you for translating it.
11:32<TrueBrain>peter1138: is it possible in cargodest to automaticly have all items rolled out in station view? (now I have to press the + every time ;))
11:33<peter1138>TrueBrain, dunno, write a patch? :p
11:34<TrueBrain>peter1138: I clearly asked if it was POSSIBLE
11:34<TrueBrain>not how I could make it possible :)
11:34<fjb>Will increasing the cost factor break grf compatibility?
11:34<peter1138>Yes, it is possible.
11:34<peter1138>fjb, that's the trick ;)
11:34<TrueBrain>without modifynig the source ;)
11:35<peter1138>TrueBrain, you clearly asked if it was POSSIBLE, not how to do it.
11:35<fjb>peter1138: How about introducing a new variable? That would not break old grfs but allow new grfs to use it.
11:35<TrueBrain>sigh ... since when did everyone become nitwits :(
11:35<TrueBrain>sorry I asked, I will close OpenTTD now, as clearly I can't get a normal response from anyone today :( (expect form Ammler :))
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11:37<fjb>Moin frosch123
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11:37<frosch123>quak fjb
11:37<fjb>:-)
11:39<fjb>How can I convince a town to let me remove a piece of road?
11:40<@Belugas>PLANT TREES
11:40<@Belugas>oupps..
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11:40<@Belugas>sorry
11:40<@Belugas>Plant lots of trees
11:40<peter1138>Totally give up all hope if it's part of a closed loops.
11:40<peter1138>-s
11:42<fjb>I have the best rating possible in that town. And I fear that it is part of a loop.
11:42<peter1138>fjb, anyway, introducing a new variable is the plan.
11:42<fjb>Do I have to destroy the whole road that comes after that tile?
11:42<peter1138>If it's a loop, yes. Or cheat.
11:42<TrueBrain>PBS is implemented in a _very_ nice way .. when you understand how signals work, it is very easy to build cool networks
11:42<fjb>peter1138: So the plan is still worked on? That would be great news.
11:43<peter1138>No, it's just the plan :p
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11:43<fjb>What are the TTDP devs thinking about it?
11:44<TrueBrain>bah, the cheapest train is no longer available .... need to wait even longer before I can buy a 2nd :(
11:44<frosch123>fjb: you have to enable the "allow to remove more town owned stuff"-advanced setting (or whatever it is called)
11:45<frosch123>then you can remove also middle pieces
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11:46<fjb>frosch123: Thank you. It will do the town a favour. I will replace a level crossing by a bridge there.
11:46<@Belugas>[11:43] <fjb> What are the TTDP devs thinking about it? <--- reminds of something i said a few moments ago...
11:46<peter1138>I don't know.
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11:47<TrueBrain>Ammler: I guess you need a coalmine and a powerplant to make something out of it with those newgrfs of yours :p
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11:47<fjb>Belugas: Why? Any extension to the grf spec should stay as compatible as possible between both projects. So before implementing anything the spec should be thought out.
11:48<Ammler>TrueBrain: is it the first time you play with newgrfs?
11:48*Belugas smiles at the repeatiting scheme :)
11:48<TrueBrain>Ammler: most likely
11:48<Ammler>not only DBSet is that expensive
11:48*peter1138 hungers.
11:48<Ammler>but if you start around 1950, you will have enough money later...
11:48<TrueBrain>Ammler: it is okay that it is that expensive .. it is just hard to do anything real with pax only
11:49<Ammler>and cargodest is known to have less income.
11:49<TrueBrain>I started in 1990
11:49<TrueBrain>my mistake I guess ;)
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11:49<TrueBrain>maybe replace rail with tram :p
11:50<Ammler>we used planes as moneymaker :P
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11:50<TrueBrain>that most likely is an idea too
11:50<Ammler>specially if you make the speed 1/1
11:51<TrueBrain>fast forwarding 10 years now .. almost enough money ..
11:51<TrueBrain>too bad the price of the train increases too .. :p
11:52<peter1138>Should play with inflation off...
11:52<peter1138>It's easier ;)
11:52<Ammler>doesn't both rise (costs and income)
11:52<TrueBrain>hehe
11:52<TrueBrain>true
11:53<peter1138>Ammler: "don't"
11:53<peter1138>And, yes, they do, but at different rates.
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11:54<TrueBrain>FINALLY! Now no money for wagons ..
11:54<@Rubidium>Ammler: yes, both rise... only income rises less fast than costs
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11:54<Ammler>yes waggons are also expensive on that set :-)
11:55<TrueBrain>5k .. doable
11:55<TrueBrain>just I didn't had that amount :p
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11:57<TrueBrain>hmmm ... negative costs when delivering stuff .. can never be a good sign :)
11:59<TrueBrain>wow, 1 more train makes my income go from 2k in a year to 20k .. :p
11:59<Ammler>TrueBrain: you will have that a lot with cargodest
11:59<TrueBrain>yup
11:59<TrueBrain>I like it
11:59<TrueBrain>crashing busses with trains
11:59<TrueBrain>nasty
12:00<TrueBrain>is it me, or do busses wait for reserved track too?
12:00<TrueBrain>(the crashing is because of me being silly :p
12:00<peter1138>They wait for unreserved track ;)
12:01<Ammler>TrueBrain: pbs signal after road crossings :-)
12:02<Ammler>if you have enough gap between signals, you will have less accidents then without pbs.
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12:03<Ammler>a
12:03<TrueBrain>Ammler: yeah, I noticed :)
12:03-!-Rexxars [~rexxars@62.113.133.253] has joined #openttd
12:03<TrueBrain>just when there is a queue over the track for miles ..
12:03<TrueBrain>:p
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12:04<Ammler>timetable!
12:05<TrueBrain>Ammler: 35 vehicles wanting to deliver at a single drive through station
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12:05<TrueBrain>how much do you think timetable can do?
12:05<TrueBrain>as I said, it is me being silly ;)
12:05<TrueBrain>dinner time!
12:05<Ammler>drive through is the next topic on Celestars TODO,
12:07<sexten>hmm. Is there any difference in the amount of i.e. coal you get if you only have 1 catchment area over the coal mine vs. 6?
12:07<frosch123>no
12:08<sexten>I'm a bit puzzled that it sometimes takes more than 1 catchment area covering the power station for the station to accept coal, so I thought it maybe worked the other way around as well
12:09<Ammler>sexten: it needs 8/8 to accept a type of cargo
12:09<frosch123>not every tile of the power station accepts coal
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12:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14414 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Fix: replace instances of strncpy with strecpy as strncpy doesn't guarantee the resulting string is '\0'-terminated.
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12:50<DJNekkid>im haveing a slight problem with Action0 type 1A - Sort in purchase list.
12:50<DJNekkid>http://paste.openttd.org/114261
12:52<DJNekkid>for example: the one on lines 180, 181, 183, show up on the top of them all
12:52<DJNekkid>and the on on line 32 shows up a long way down
12:53<DJNekkid>any hints or tips? :)
12:53<DJNekkid>and this is on the very end of the .nfo file
12:54<peter1138>Yeah, type 1A does not work like that. Reread it.
12:55<frosch123>"sort in purchase list" should be renamed to "move in purchase list"
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13:00<DJNekkid>well, i didnt get any whiser...
13:00<peter1138>It is not "place at this position", it is "place before this id"
13:01<DJNekkid>well, that i've understood, but when ALL trains are shuffeled?
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13:13<DephNet[Paul]>I'm trying to get cargodest working with r14412, so I need to install boost, I am on a CentOS 5.2 machine and doing a "yum search boost" gives me http://pastebin.com/d5b2a527e am I right in thinking I need to do a "yum install boost boost-devel"? also after I have installed boost what else needs to be done? just compile and install as normal?
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13:15<Ammler>DephNet[Paul]: mercurial
13:16<Ammler>check the wiki page about cargodest.
13:16<DephNet[Paul]>Ammler, i have but there is nothing on there about boost and CentOS
13:18<Ammler>are you able to compile openttd trunk?
13:19<DephNet[Paul]>Ammler, im currently running r14412, so i guess so
13:19<Ammler>I think boost is the only additional lib, imo.
13:20<DephNet[Paul]>and the source files from http://www.openttd.org/en/download-cargodest? if i dont *need* to have them together id rather keep r14412 and cargodest seperate
13:21<Ammler>DephNet[Paul]: well, most use SVN or Mercurial to get the source
13:23<Ammler>why don't you not just use the prebuilds?
13:24<DephNet[Paul]>because i dont *want* to?
13:24<DephNet[Paul]>in anycase i would still need boost to run the prebuilds
13:25<DephNet[Paul]>would a simple "yum install boost" be enough, or are there extra libs i need?
13:25<DephNet[Paul]>thats my origional question
13:25<+glx>boost is needed for compilation only
13:26<DephNet[Paul]>thanks glx so i can just grab the binarys and it will work fine
13:26<+glx>yes
13:27<DephNet[Paul]>thanks
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13:39<DaleStan><DJNekkid> Action0 type 1A <-- Action 0s do not have types. NFO is hard enough; don't go inventing your own terminology.
13:40<DJNekkid>sorry ... property then?
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13:41<DaleStan>Yes. Property.
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13:42<DJNekkid>sorry, it wont happen again... but i still dont see how i can sort my list properly
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13:45<DJNekkid>what if i put up a list that sorts 0 to 0x73 first... hmm
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13:50<DaleStan>It's not "sort". It's "move before". Move 72 before 73, then 71 before 72, then 70 before 71, &c. Or read the docs and see how to do that with just one action 0.
13:51<DJNekkid>but still ... everything is moved...
13:51<DJNekkid>and some of them goes way to high, or low
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13:54<DJNekkid>or ... when nr 5 and 6 is moved to 0, they turn into 0 and 1 ?
13:55<DJNekkid>or bleh
13:56<DJNekkid>the better thing to do would be to give each one a uniqe number i guess...
13:57<peter1138>You don't move it to 0
13:57<peter1138>You move it to before id 0 is, whereever id 0 maybe be
13:58<peter1138>s/maybe/may/
13:59<DJNekkid>so if id0 is at point 32 in the list, it's moved to point 31?
14:01<peter1138>depends if it was before or after point 32 originally :)
14:02<peter1138>but pretty much like that
14:02<DJNekkid>oh ... *sigh*
14:03<DJNekkid>well, what if i then move them into a range where i dont have any vehicle ID's...
14:03<DJNekkid>start in 20k or something :)
14:04<peter1138>It doesn't matter.
14:04<peter1138>If you tell it to go to move id 5 to before id 0, it will appear before id 0.
14:05<DJNekkid>but if i tell ID 10.000 to go before 20.000 it should do just that? and id 4.000 to go before 20.001
14:05<DJNekkid>etc
14:06<DJNekkid>and each and every vehicle is done just that...
14:06<peter1138>right
14:06<DJNekkid>and i could give each letter in each type (steam,diesel,electrics,DMU,EMU,railcar) for example 20 "spots"
14:07<DJNekkid>or 25 ... that would be aprox 1000 per type
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14:09<Wolf01>hello
14:09<DJNekkid>i'll give it a try i guess
14:11<peter1138>How silly :p
14:12<DJNekkid>you mean it wont work?
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14:23<DJNekkid>either that, or i should rearrange all the vehicle ID's so they make sense in a type/alphabetical fashion
14:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14415 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix (r10074): void tiles could be the nearest 'land' for water industries
14:25<fjb>My town changed a bit from yesterday. The railway station was too small: http://www.imgwelt.de/uploads/5UJH15AMJ05.png
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14:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14416 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix (r10074)(r10517): substraction was done the other way in the 'nearest land/water' check (~25% performance penalty)
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14:42<peter1138>substraction!
14:43<@SmatZ>peter1138: sorry, that word sounds English for me :( what have I done wrong?
14:44<peter1138>Possibly subtraction...
14:44-!-welshdragon [~vista@adsl-83-100-138-245.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:45<Prof_Frink>or subduction
14:45<Prof_Frink>or abstraction
14:45<Prof_Frink>or kayak.
14:45<peter1138>or substrate
14:45<@SmatZ>mmm my dictionary knows that word, it is probably an Americanism, sorry
14:47-!-Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-96-107.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
14:47<Chrill>BOOB
14:47<Chrill>teehee, wrong chan
14:48<dih>i dont even want to know what channel that was intended for
14:48<@SmatZ>hehe
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14:52<Chrill>dih, #tycoon of course
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14:55<dih>Chrill, what part of 'i dont want to know' do you not understand?
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14:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14417 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Codechange: rewrite GetClosestWaterDistance(), now it is ~100 times faster than pre-r14416 in average case
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15:11<peter1138>Why those maximums?
15:11<peter1138>Oh, they were there before.
15:11<@SmatZ>peter1138: max_x and max_y? so they ar available in registers and not re...
15:11<@SmatZ>ah yes
15:12<@SmatZ>I couldn't find that in the GRF specs, so I stood with the behaviour of old code
15:13<@SmatZ>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Industries#Manhattan_distance_of_closest_dry_land_tile_43_
15:15<peter1138>So does that affect ECS generation time?
15:15-!-Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:16<@SmatZ>peter1138: yes, when the Agricultural vector is included, map generation should take much less time
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15:16<peter1138>I never really paid much attention to ECS, apart from Eddi|zuHause's complaints ;)
15:16<@SmatZ>hehe :)
15:16<peter1138>Or was it someone else... Hmm...
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15:21<@SmatZ>all ECS vectors included, 1024x1024 map, High industries: 133 sec -> 13 sec ;-)
15:21<frosch123>O_O
15:22<frosch123>I would have never believed that just a single function caused the generation time
15:22<@SmatZ>:-)
15:22-!-Euro_swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
15:23<@Belugas>THAT MUCH???
15:24<frosch123>BACKPORT !
15:24<@SmatZ>:)
15:25<@SmatZ>r14415 and r14416 were done so they can be backported :)
15:27<Wolf01>Sacro, is batti5 your second personality? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=39818
15:27<@Belugas>nice, SmatZ, very nice
15:28<@SmatZ>thank you Belugas :)
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15:28<@SmatZ>I didn't expect that huge speedup :)
15:29<Wolf01>:o is for industries? I was thinking about ships pathfinding
15:29<@Belugas>ho... pure luck then? BOOOOH!!
15:29<@Belugas>heheh ;)
15:29<@SmatZ>:(
15:30<Wolf01>in any case, congratulations for this lucky achievement :D
15:33<@SmatZ>thanks :)
15:34<@SmatZ>gemeration seed: 11111111111 r14415: 188sec r14416: 146sec r14417: 13sec
15:35<frosch123>seed 123 is still running with 14411 :)
15:35<@SmatZ>:))))))
15:35<Wolf01>:O
15:35<frosch123>your computer is faster than mine
15:36<peter1138>Any GRFs involved there?
15:36<peter1138>(And what size map?)
15:36<peter1138>Oh, all ECS, 1024x1024. I can read.
15:36<frosch123>1024^2, full ecs load, hilly terrain, high number of industries
15:37<frosch123>13s with HEAD, several minutes with 14411
15:37<@SmatZ>great :)
15:38<peter1138>temperate?
15:38<peter1138>towns?
15:39<frosch123>for me: temperate, low towns, very low sea
15:39<frosch123>but I start to wonder wheter "sevel minutes" is correct...
15:40<frosch123>currently at 5s per industry
15:40<peter1138>What hell are these big ship things :o
15:41<frosch123>lol
15:41<@Rubidium>"fishing grounds"
15:41<peter1138>Oh god the bounding boxes for them are totally fucked :p
15:41<+glx>yeah george doesn't like BB
15:41<peter1138>lol
15:42<peter1138>yeah, seems everything is 16x16xn
15:42<@SmatZ>hehe
15:42<+glx>and he doesn't like splitting gfx in 'tiles'
15:42<frosch123>don't look at the 4x2 tourist center at coast
15:43<frosch123>err 6x3
15:43-!-KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-230-61.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:43<TrueBrain>trams are ugly (the rails for trams)
15:43<peter1138>Each tree is an individual sprite...
15:43<peter1138>How efficient :p
15:43<frosch123>not even the trees, also the persons and their personal stuff...
15:45<peter1138>Wow...
15:46<Ammler>TrueBrain: if you still play with "my" presets
15:46<Ammler>then you have an TramTracks GRF
15:47<Ammler>maybe you like the original more.
15:47<Ammler>-n
15:47-!-Tim [~Tim@p5B37E1AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
15:47<TrueBrain>Ammler: no, I did not :)
15:47<TrueBrain>I do like the planes btw
15:48<@Belugas>i THINK George has some pre-conceived ideas about sprites and all
15:49<@Belugas>not only that, much more too...
15:51<TrueBrain>I have 400 pax (of 400 pax) who want to go to some suburb station in a big town ... and nobody wants to go anywhere else .. smells wrong :p
15:51<TrueBrain>ah, the to-display information is just slightly different then what I expected
15:51<TrueBrain>oh well :)
15:54<peter1138>Took a few minutes with r14415
15:55<peter1138>God damn, ECS is ugly...
15:56<Prof_Frink>Not as ugly as the orudgeset
15:57<Wolf01>'night
15:57-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host213-160-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
15:59<Ammler>ECS is not TTDish
16:01<+glx>PBI is better for me
16:01-!-Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
16:01<@Belugas>funny to note, some graphics have been generated for OpenTTD 32 bits :)
16:01*frosch123 considers to abort the generation...
16:01<@Belugas>and George reused them
16:01<@SmatZ>:-D @ frosch123
16:02<@Belugas>seems to proove that hand drawing is still the best way to go (on almost every case)
16:02<frosch123>Belugas: the ships of opengfx look nice :)
16:02<frosch123>but they are hand-tweaked
16:02<@Belugas>well... ok...let
16:02<@Belugas>s
16:03<@Belugas>add
16:03<@Belugas>human internvention
16:03<@Belugas>same as wth pikka's planes iirc
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16:09<@Belugas>"Right Beside You"
16:09<@SmatZ>:)
16:10-!-ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has joined #openttd
16:14*Belugas wonders where George have seen that limit
16:14<@SmatZ>:)
16:17<peter1138>Hmm?
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16:38*Belugas runs home and waves good night
16:39<peter1138>Ta ra
16:39*frosch123 does not need to run home, but also waves good night :)
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16:40<fjb>What is orudgeset?
16:41*peter1138 grumbles at ticking fan
16:41<peter1138>Unless it's a ticking bomb...
16:43-!-KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738c806.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:43<TrueBrain>http://xbox360.ign.com/dor/objects/761547/a-train-x/videos/atrainx_092406.html <- a train game for the xbox .. sounds gay...
16:46<fjb>Ticcking fan is not that great. Mostly results in a fanless fan...
16:49<Eddi|zuHause><Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: have you ever seen the "proposal" of Eddi|zuHause for a new grf language? <- what do you mean? "have i seen my own proposal?"
16:50<Ammler>that was for TrueBrain as we spoke about GRF language
16:50<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: Ammler has problems .. Eddi|zuHause .. TrueBrain .. it looks so much alike
16:50<Ammler>many times I do not type what I think...
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>and it wasn't even a proposal, it was an alpha implementation, which i had no time to improve
16:51<Ammler>(or oppsite?)
16:51<TrueBrain>many times I don't think what I type ;)
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>many times i don't type when i think
16:51-!-welshdragon [~vista@adsl-83-100-138-245.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
16:51<Ammler>or worse, I type without thinking :P
16:52<TrueBrain>Ammler: tha tI just said ;)
16:52<peter1138>Worse still, you type.
16:53<TrueBrain>worse, you think
16:53<peter1138>Worse.
16:53<peter1138>And just when you think it couldn't get worse, yorick joins.
16:54<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> I never really paid much attention to ECS, apart from Eddi|zuHause's complaints ;) <- yes, i complained about ECS many times :p
16:54<TrueBrain>haha
16:54<TrueBrain>I 100% completely agree with you there :)
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16:58<TrueBrain>Mortal invasion (again)
16:58<fjb>Wait till it dies.
16:58<mortal``>we're coming to take the heaven that is #openttd
16:59<TrueBrain>I like invasions
16:59<TrueBrain>@kick mortal I don't like that idea :p
16:59-!-Mortal was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [I don't like that idea :p]
16:59<mortal``>:(
16:59-!-mortal`` is now known as mortal
16:59<TrueBrain>hehe :)
16:59<TrueBrain>always nice to kick dead clients :p
16:59<mortal>hah! now you'll never be able to tell us apart!
17:00<mortal>hmm, I guess I'd better hand in this assignment before my wlan dies completely
17:00<TrueBrain>the question is if I care ;)
17:00<peter1138>With a judicious kickban, we won't need to.
17:01<TrueBrain>mortal: sounds like a plan :)
17:01<fjb>Class 91 going backward looks awkward.
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17:08<Sacro|Laptop>fjb: slab end is ugly
17:08-!-Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:09<fjb>And I didn't think about the mail wagon that must be added as a control car.
17:11<peter1138>Lies. The slab is beautiful.
17:19<fjb>And I had to extend some stations for the pendolino. I went lucky because i planed then latest station a tile longer for aesthetical reasons.
17:31<Prof_Frink>Sacro: You just lost the game.
17:31<Sacro>Prof_Frink: the whole game?
17:31*Sacro accidentally Prof_Frink
17:31<Prof_Frink>(Our entry for The Game was a 91 Slab End)
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17:56<TrueBrain>boring people
17:58<ccfreak2k>Where's the popular newgrf repository these days?
17:58<+glx>grfcrawler?
18:00<ccfreak2k>Ooh, I'm sorry, that was the wrong answer.
18:00<Ammler>there is no repository yet, just a database with links.
18:00<ccfreak2k>That's close enough to a repository for me.
18:01<Ammler>then grfcrawler is one of the better answers...
18:02<Ammler>another linklist: http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/GRF_Table_7.2
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18:14<peter1138>Woo, my live music show got 0 listeners :D
18:14<peter1138>Just as well, you'd be pretty board.
18:14<peter1138>...
18:14<peter1138>Bored.
18:16-!-Tim [~Tim@p5B37E1AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com]
18:16<TrueBrain>I agree with peter1138 there: bored
18:16<TrueBrain>(well, don't know about his music show, I do know about my current state :p
18:17<peter1138>Well it was not a show.
18:17<peter1138>It was me fiddling on my keyboard.
18:17-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:18<TrueBrain>so it was a good thing ;)
18:19-!-the_bat [~bart.mous@94-40-44-2.tktelekom.pl] has joined #openttd
18:19<TrueBrain>the_bat: how is the cave?
18:20<peter1138>How is the email?
18:20<the_bat>how to make the rebuild ... how to change the cargo type in depot?
18:20<TrueBrain>tasty
18:20<the_bat>i click the rebuild option and the list is empty
18:20<the_bat>I buy the waegons
18:21<the_bat>and nothing does it
18:21<the_bat>how can I change cargo type from wood to paper for the train
18:22<the_bat>is this possible?
18:22<the_bat>in openttd 0.6.2?
18:22<TrueBrain>ah, refit .. I was wondering what 'rebuild' meant :)
18:22<the_bat>refit sorry
18:23<TrueBrain>the_bat: you can't refit all wagons to something; some can, some can't. Check their description of which can.
18:23<TrueBrain>signing off; good night all!
18:26<the_bat>where I may find the description of the weagon?
18:26<the_bat>in game I have only information about amount of cargo and nothing more
18:26<the_bat>is the refit works ?
18:27<the_bat>or only is... in game :-)
18:28<Yexo>the_bat: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Refit <- that page should tell you everything you need
18:28<Yexo>if the list of cargo types is empty, you need to buy another wagon, as you can't refit the one you have
18:30<the_bat>thanks for the link
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18:45<the_bat>hmmm... I try to refit all type of weagons and nothing .... always have blank list
18:45<the_bat>someone refit his trains?
18:46<the_bat>I know how to refit the ship but trains doesn't work
18:46<the_bat>at any waegon
18:47<the_bat>is refit working for trains?
18:47<the_bat>any type and how to make it ?
18:48<the_bat>the ships works fine
18:49<the_bat>but when I make order to the train to make refit i always get the blank list... in depot I have weagon for each cargo and for test I get steam with one weagon ... change for all cargo and nothing happen
18:51<the_bat>what I do bad?
18:51<fjb>Which train set are you using?
18:51<the_bat>openttd 0.6.2 build
18:52<fjb>Any train grf loaded?
18:52<the_bat>yes generic tram set
18:52<fjb>The default vehicles are from the original TTD game and are not refittable.
18:53<Yexo>the default train wagons are not refittable, so if you don't use a train grf, you can't refit them
18:53<the_bat>which grf I must install?
18:53<the_bat>generic tram set 0.4 is not for trains
18:53<Yexo>why do you want to refit those train wagons anyway?
18:54<fjb>A train set of your taste. Look here: http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/index.php?do=list&cid=101
18:54<the_bat>in railroad tycoon I may refit on each station ... I want to test some new features
18:55<Yexo>the_bat: if you use a refit order, you pay a cost for refitting every time, so that is generally not used
18:55<the_bat>refit costs = cost of new weagons or less???
18:55<fjb>Less.
18:55<the_bat>so I wanna try
18:56<the_bat>I know it's not good idea in multiplayer when u must be as quick as u can
18:56<fjb>Have a look at the train sets.
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18:57<the_bat>omg
18:57<the_bat>which to take?
18:57-!-Tekky [~chatzilla@p5493D776.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
18:57<Yexo>try a few and pick one you like
18:57<the_bat>and one more question
18:58<fjb>Depends on what you are used to. European, northern american, tropical. What do you prefer?
18:58<the_bat>32bpp graphic how to set it?
18:58<Yexo>see http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Playing_with_32bpp_graphics
18:58<fjb>There is a command line option that enables the 32bpp blitter. And you need a 32bpp set too.
18:59<the_bat>where can I find the set of 32bpp graphics?
18:59<the_bat>grfs?
18:59<Yexo>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/List_of_downloadable_32bpp_tars
19:00<Yexo>and probably there are more in the openttd graphics forum
19:00<fjb>Which is here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=36&sid=cafea49ab48543b297e3f5111e9b28e5
19:00<Ammler>32bpp is only fun with zoom level...
19:02<the_bat>ok I try all the links in game ... hardly all :-))) but toomorrow thx bye
19:02<peter1138>where 'fun' means 'crashy'
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19:19<ccfreak2k>Did YAPP make its way into 0.6.3?
19:22<Yexo>no, 0.6.3 is a bugfix only release
19:46<ccfreak2k>Okey dokey.
19:46<fjb>Why do busses always break down at level crossings?
19:54<ccfreak2k>Cruel irony?
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20:25<fjb>I guess.
20:26<fjb>I'm giving up on this game. UKRS trains have running costs that high again that I'm losing only money. Maybe I should play on flat land only with the UKRS set.
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21:15<ccfreak2k>I had an idea.
21:15<ccfreak2k>"wine" cargo.
21:15<ccfreak2k>The longer it's in transit, the higher its value. :)
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22:40<Tekky>ccfreak2k: lol :)
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 30 00:00:07 2008