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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-10-06

---Logopened Mon Oct 06 00:00:51 2008
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05:06<planetmaker>morning :)
05:10<fjb>Morning planetmaker
05:10<ln>morning slartibartfast
05:11<planetmaker>lool @ ln
05:11<planetmaker>what a nice question asked there... :-P
05:14<ln>i would like to see the accepted solution
05:17<@petern>expert sexchange?
05:18<ln>that's a more accurate description of the site.
05:18<@petern>odd, normally you can see the results if you scroll right down
05:18<@petern>maybe it depends on a google referrer...
05:19<ln>yeah, normally.
05:19<@petern>haha, it does
05:19<@petern>if you search for the title on google, go to it that way
05:19<@petern>you get the answers then
05:19<@petern>blatant search rigging
05:20<@petern>Try this function
05:20<@petern>Function UnRnd()
05:20<@petern>UnRnd = 4 'my favourite number!
05:20<@petern>End Function
05:20<@petern>IntTemp = Int((255 * UnRnd()) + 1)
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05:22<fjb>Nice solution to that problem.
05:22<ln>wtf, the accepted solution provides no solution at all, not even a stupid one.
05:25<fjb>Maybe replacing his brain would be acceptet as a solution.
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05:49<@Celestar> <= this looks almost like a model railway :P
05:51<fjb>Proportions are more TTD like. :-)
05:52<ln>it has more than the max of 4 tracks per station.
05:53<fjb>Did TTD have that maximum?
05:54<ln>it did and does.
05:56<ccfreak2k>IS this the next version of OpenTTD?
05:57<fjb>Would be fun. Bigger buildings, curved tracks and less space between the tracks.
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05:59<@Celestar>er that is a real station you know :P
06:00<fjb>No, not possible, look at the wagons, way too short.
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06:03<@Celestar>yeah right :P
06:03<@Celestar>*cough* telephoto lens *cough*
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06:13<Brianetta>If that's TTD, then there are fake trains.
06:14<Brianetta>You can't put two parallel tracks on one tile like that.
06:16<TrueBrain>If that is TTD, we failed to keep 3D out :(
06:20<@petern>The wonders of telephoto lenses.
06:20<@petern>That would be really cool...
06:21<@petern>Looks a bit busy.
06:21<@Celestar>650 trains a day plus the S-Bahn
06:21<@Celestar>(which are another 1100 trains a day)
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06:22<@petern>That bit on the lower right corner looks really odd.
06:22<TrueBrain>for some reason Debian removed subversion AGAIN
06:23<TrueBrain>it seems to think I don't want it ..
06:23<@Celestar>petern: what about it?
06:23<@petern>It's just the curve and slope combined make it look not right.
06:24<@petern>TrueBrain: unstable?
06:24<@Celestar>you mean the ramp?
06:24<TrueBrain>petern: no; and it only happens when I install an other package that depends on it, remove thatone, and run autoremove .. and not always, just in some weird cases ..
06:24<TrueBrain>stupid system
06:25*petern only runs etch, so has no encountered that.
06:25*Celestar wonders why they still use sleepers on the new tracks from Munich to Augsburg
06:25<blathijs>What is autoremove supposed to do? Sounds like it is broken by design :-)
06:26<TrueBrain>I doubt it is lenny specific .. most likely my usage of the apt-system is somewhat wrong .. what ever
06:26<TrueBrain>NoAI takes almost one minute longer to compile :$
06:26<TrueBrain>(well, on a single core)
06:26<@petern>blathijs, autoremove removes packages were installed automatically along with something else
06:26<blathijs>Hmm, the text from the manpage suggests that it should be removing it in your case
06:26<TrueBrain>from 2m6 to 3m5
06:26<@petern>It's a great help for clearing up dependencies if you remove something.
06:26<TrueBrain>(trunk vs noai)
06:27<blathijs>petern: I usually use aptitude, which has that feature without a special command (for quite some time longer than that autoremove exists)
06:27<blathijs>hardly ever have problems there
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06:27<blathijs>TrueBrain: you should try to reproduce the problem, on a clean lenny system for example, and then file a bugreport :-)
06:27<TrueBrain>problem with 'apt-get' is that you get this BIG list of things it will remove .... and that is absoutely unclear
06:28<TrueBrain>aptitude ahs the problem that his screen is WAY too small ..
06:28<TrueBrain>blathijs: absolutely no interest in doing that :p
06:29<blathijs>Huh? Why does aptitude make your screen smaller?
06:29<@petern>When I tried using aptitide it went ahead and installed all the recommends without me asking it.
06:29<TrueBrain>blathijs: did I say small_er_? No, I said: SMALL
06:29<@petern>TrueBrain, aptitude has a command line mode too.
06:29<TrueBrain>it has, what, 10 lines of the upper part
06:29<TrueBrain>where you can review stuff ...
06:29<TrueBrain>really ... it annoys the hell out of me
06:29<blathijs>TrueBrain: Smaller than your physical screen, I mean
06:30<TrueBrain>petern: how useful ... :p
06:30<@petern>Apparently it is recommended over apt now. I dislike it.
06:30<blathijs>But you mean that the division is not useful
06:30<@Celestar>Brianetta: why would anyone build sleeper-based tracks these days? :P
06:30<TrueBrain>really, the best package manager I have seen so far, is emerge .. simple and efficient
06:30<TrueBrain>blathijs: my physcial screen is 80x24
06:30<TrueBrain>not much to do about that
06:30<@petern>I tried Gentoo. emerge fucked my system up.
06:30<TrueBrain>and I am pretty sure aptitude uses all 24 liens .. just not as efficient as one might hope
06:30<blathijs>TrueBrain: For me, aptitude just divides my screen into two equal parts, which does mean around 10 lines on a 80x24 terminal yes :-)
06:31<@petern>Well, okay, I must have done it because surely nobody would write something that would fuck it up.
06:31<TrueBrain>petern: how can 'emerge' fuck up your system? :p
06:31<blathijs>TrueBrain: Try the "D" key in aptitude
06:31<@petern>But for me it wouldn't do any sort of dependency upgrading.
06:31<TrueBrain>blathijs: an in those 10 lines you need to NAVIGATE .. I mean, come on ...... :(
06:31<TrueBrain>petern: Gentoo is nasty to install, as you need to do everything yourself .. easy to fuck up on many many places :)
06:31<TrueBrain>but, if it is running, emerge rarely makes mistakes (2 times a year or so)
06:32<TrueBrain>and at least gives you a clear dep-tree, and what is hapening where ..
06:32<@petern>It left tons of packages out of date :(
06:32<blathijs>Besides, aptitude also works fine on the commandline (ie, like emerge, or does emerge have a UI now?)
06:32<TrueBrain>emerge -uavND world ;)
06:32<@petern>Yes, I did.
06:32<TrueBrain>you need to know that command ... :p
06:32<@petern>It did one or two things, but not every thing.
06:32<TrueBrain>wouldn't know, I use CLI for package management where possible
06:33<TrueBrain>petern: and if that fails, something went wrong in the init, and emerge -uavND system, fixes it 90% of the time :)
06:33<@petern>The install guide I used used colour codes to show optional bits, i.e. "do it this way" was green and "or do it this way" was red.
06:33<@petern>Unfortunately it was a plain text file.
06:33<TrueBrain>(if you start with 2006.0 and upgrade directly to 2008.0, things break .. :p)
06:33<@petern>So there was no indication of what should be done.
06:33<@petern>I used it a few years ago.
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06:33<TrueBrain>hahahha :)
06:34<@petern>Anyway, Debian is the only thing I'll run on servers.
06:34<@petern>Well, Linux servers anyway.
06:34<TrueBrain>blathijs: 'D' makes it better, but .... well ... lack of clear documentation makes that impossible to know :p
06:34<DJNekkid>the first sound useing action 11, is 00 80 right?
06:34<TrueBrain>I sadly enough currentyl need to manage both Windows Server 2008, and Fedora Core 7 .. bah :p
06:34<DJNekkid>for use in the var10 block?
06:35<blathijs>TrueBrain: You could have tried the ? or F1 keys to find that command
06:35<@petern>The first sound is clearly 00 00
06:35<TrueBrain>blathijs: yeah .. sure ...
06:35<TrueBrain>like with screen
06:35<TrueBrain>read through the manual!!
06:35<TrueBrain>still you get lost .. :p
06:35<@petern>Why would you start at 0x8000?
06:35<TrueBrain>sorry, if software REQUIRES to read the manual, the software is broken by design :)
06:36<DJNekkid>"Values from 0 to 72 (dec) are TTD's built-in sound effects, values beyond that refer to the sounds from Action 11"
06:36<TrueBrain>anyway ... what was I planning for this beautiful day ...
06:37<DJNekkid>i guess its dec73 thats the first one then ...
06:37<@petern>What does 0x8000 have to do with that? And what's a var10 block?
06:38<DJNekkid>var10 is what is needed in front of a few callbacks, 33 and 36 amongst others
06:38<blathijs>TrueBrain: I'm curious as to how you prefer to use cli software, without reading documentation... But well, let's just say you're not much of an aptitude user :-)
06:39<@petern>So you mean testing varaction2 variable 10.
06:39<@petern>Then 00 00 is the first sound effect.
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06:40<@petern>To signify it is a callback, you add the 0x8000, but that is not part of the value.
06:41<@petern>Hmm, dedicated servers use a fair bit of CPU time even when paused :o
06:42<@petern>I guess it's all those queries.
06:43<@petern>Oh, it's a design flaw :o
06:43<Ammler>is it possible to fix the IP for userspace on a server with 64 different IPs, like server_bind_ip but for everything.
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06:44<Ammler>now we have 3 different IPs for ottd, ap and web.
06:46<DJNekkid>bah, 2 links
06:47<Ammler>dear TrueBrain, maybe SysOp knows something about?
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06:48<@petern>And you want them to do what?
06:48<@petern>Are you talking about websites, or general applications?
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06:49<Ammler>petern: the problem might be autopilot (tcl)
06:50<@petern>DJNekkid, your sound will be at 73.
06:50<@petern>Ammler, why?
06:50<DJNekkid>so, 73 00 ?
06:50<DJNekkid>or 73 80?
06:50<@petern>I don't know what network communication autopilot does.
06:50<@petern>DJNekkid, neither.
06:50<@petern>It's decimal.
06:50<Ammler>not possible to bind it to a ip,
06:51<DJNekkid>\w73 then ? ;)
06:51<@petern>The value is 0x0049, so you need to put in "49 80"
06:51<DJNekkid>ahh :)
06:52<@petern>Ammler, I mean, what bit of it talks TCP/IP?
06:53<Ammler>autopilot does IRC
06:53<Ammler>well, it is not really nescesary, was just wondering
06:53<@petern>Right, so you want to fix the IRC client's source address.
06:53<Ammler>the hostmaks, yes.
06:54<Ammler>for identify
06:54<@petern>No, a source address is not a hostmask.
06:55<Ammler>depense from where you look, doesn0t?
06:55<@petern>No it doesn't.
06:55<@petern>Only if you're an idiot.
06:55<@petern>Although that's quite believable.
06:55<Ammler>well, I mean the address you get if you whois someone.
06:55<@petern>A hostmask is a *mask* that matches a *host*
06:56<@petern>When you /whois someone, you do not get a hostmask.
06:56<Ammler>and to match the host, I would like to keep it constant
06:56<@petern>You get a nick!user@hostname
06:56<Ammler>yeah, sorry.
06:57<Ammler>but if the hostname changes, I need to change the mask
06:57<@petern>Anyway, as nobody uses tcl these days, I cannot find information on mod_irc.
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06:58<@petern>Hmm, maybe mod_irc is part of autopilot anyway.
06:59<Ammler>it is
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07:00<Ammler>well, I guess, it is :-)
07:00<@petern>Yeah, the irc part isn't.
07:00<@petern>Doesn't look like it supports setting the source address :/
07:02<Ammler>hmm, well, we could set the mask to match the whole net.
07:02<@petern>hostmasks don't support CIDR though.
07:02<@petern>(Do they?)
07:03<Ammler>something like ?
07:05<Ammler>oh, only 6
07:05<Ammler>for 64 ips.
07:05<DJNekkid>hmm, still no sound tho...
07:06<@petern>For a block of 64 the it would be /26.
07:07<SpComb>source-address-selection algorithms <3
07:07<SpComb>it might be tweakable via iproute
07:07<TrueBrain>[12:39] <blathijs> TrueBrain: I'm curious as to how you prefer to use cli software, without reading documentation... But well, let's just say you're not much of an aptitude user :-) <- good software doesn't need documentation to makes itself clear. When you need to read a docuement, it means it is too complicated for any average user
07:07<SpComb>you could set it to preferr some specific source address for certain destinations
07:07<SpComb>e.g. irc servers
07:07<Noldo>TrueBrain: you are an average user?
07:07<Ammler>SpComb: but I fear only serverwide
07:08<SpComb>but that's a global system-level policy change
07:08<Brianetta>"When you need to read a docuement, it means it is too complicated for any average user" <- Computers *are* too complicated for any average user.
07:08<SpComb>you need to have your application code bind to a specific port for the outgoing connections
07:08<TrueBrain>Ammler: in general it is not possible to make a userspace ip bind .. as that is the primary IP :)
07:08*petern attempts to squeeze 4 racks into 3.
07:08<TrueBrain>but: use vservers
07:08<SpComb>it's not very complicated to do, but many applications omit support for that
07:09<SpComb>it might be simpler to just add in a call to `bind` in your application code than hack it via vserver
07:10<SpComb>hmm... vserver came with some util that affected things like binding to IP addresses
07:10<SpComb>kind of similar to chroot, but for network devices
07:10*petern wonders how close lenny is to release.
07:10<TrueBrain>'hack it via vserver', HAHAHAHAHA
07:10<TrueBrain>you so missed the point
07:11<Ammler>vserver is indeed nice idea
07:11<TrueBrain>LOL! That is most likely the worst description of vserver I have ever read .. :p
07:11<FauxFaux>petern: HAHAHAHAHAHAH
07:11<FauxFaux>06/12:11:15 < BTS> FauxFaux: There are 259 release-critical bugs in the testing distribution. See
07:11<TrueBrain>Ammler: with vserver you directly have a safe split of those services
07:11<Noldo>petern: it's about 270 rc's away
07:11<Ammler>petern: thanks for correction, stupid me looked from wrong side... :-)
07:11<TrueBrain>both security-wise, as network-wise, as resource-wise
07:11<TrueBrain>solves all your problems :)
07:12<TrueBrain>either way: good day all, got to go :)
07:12<@petern>My (4 year old) server does not run properly with etch's kernel.
07:12<SpComb>`chbind --ip <IP address> <command > <args>`
07:12<SpComb>so you can just use vserver's network utils to do that
07:12<@petern>It works fine with lenny's kernel, but the vserver stuff is different :(
07:12<FauxFaux>petern: Etchnhalf kernel?#
07:13<@petern>That doesn't work either, and there is no etchnhalf vserver kernel anyway.
07:13<FauxFaux>Oh, if it's vserver any kernel change will probably screw you.
07:13<@petern>I guess that's why there is no etchnhalf vserver :)
07:14<SpComb>Ammler: so if you don't want to modify the code, you can just run the application under chbind
07:14<@petern>The lenny kernel vserver does run, but the settings are slightly different. This causes it to not install properly. It'll run, but it won't have finished :(
07:15<@petern>chbind: vc_set_ipv4root(): Function not implemented
07:15<@petern>It won't work on its own.
07:16<Ammler>bash: chbind: command not found
07:16<@petern>sudo /usr/sbin/chbind --nid 1 --ip ./openttd -D
07:16<@petern>dbg: [net] Listening on
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07:23<SpComb>Ammler: you'll need to install ssome vserver package or other
07:24<Ammler>well, I will suggest it to the server owner :-)
07:24<Ammler>maybe setup a vserver for could be a option too.
07:24<SpComb>and it'll probably require some semi-modern kernel
07:24<SpComb>so if you're running 2.4 or somesuch, it might not be possible
07:25<Ammler>oh, he is running debian :-(
07:27<Ammler>not that _old_ _)
07:27<TrueBrain>util-vserver requires a vserver kernel; chbind is part of util-vserver
07:27<TrueBrain>so you need the vserver kernel loaded before you can use any of the tools
07:27<TrueBrain>all sane OSes have the vserver kernel as option
07:28<Ammler>is that xen?
07:28<TrueBrain>xen is a completely different way of virutalization
07:28<TrueBrain>vserver and openvz are on the same level
07:28<SpComb>no, xen and vserver are two different things
07:28<TrueBrain>kvm is on an other level
07:28<SpComb>2.6.18 doesn't have xen in mainline
07:28<TrueBrain>and xen is comparible to kvm (kind of, not really)
07:28<Ammler>vserver can only virtualize other linuxes then?
07:29<Ammler>just a better chroot?
07:29<blathijs>Ammler: vserver can virtualize any userspace that can run on a linux kernel :-)
07:29<TrueBrain>it is a fancy chroot, just I won't call it that
07:29<blathijs>Ammler: Since it virtualizes userspace only, there is still only a single kernel
07:29<TrueBrain>Ammler: vserver shares the kernel (which makes it much faster than, say, Xen)
07:30<SpComb>vserver extends the chroot concept and uses kernel contexts to do "virtualisation"
07:30<SpComb>although perhaps containers is a better term
07:30<TrueBrain>vserver == Linux-Vserver (its original name)
07:31<Ammler>well, maybe he does already support vservers :-)
07:31<Ammler>can I see that with aname?
07:31<TrueBrain>uname -a will tell you
07:32<TrueBrain>(Well, not always, but any sane sysop will have it visible :p)
07:32<TrueBrain>'uname -a' yes ;)
07:32<TrueBrain>else, install util-vserver, and run: vserver-info
07:32<SpComb>cat /proc/virtual/info
07:33<SpComb>at least I assume that's vserver stuff
07:33<Ammler>no virtual here
07:33<Ammler> #1 SMP PREEMPT
07:33<TrueBrain>I believe openvz uses that too
07:35<TrueBrain>that is a special kernel :p
07:35<Ammler>but if vserver isn't much additional performance usage, he might think about.
07:35<TrueBrain>I like it, as it makes things a bit more secure
07:35<TrueBrain>take OpenTTD .. if Apache goes out to play again, it only takes down all www-stuff
07:35<TrueBrain>the compile-farm is not affected
07:35<TrueBrain>or when WT2 thinks about consuming all his memory
07:35<TrueBrain>only WT2 crashes
07:36<TrueBrain>makes my world a little bit more simple ;)
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07:36<TrueBrain>above that, there is no way to reach WT2 from the outside world
07:36<TrueBrain>(it is on a local IP)
07:37<TrueBrain>oh well, my second try to leave, I just missed my train, so here is an other chance :)
07:37<TrueBrain>bye all, good luck Ammler :)
07:37<Ammler>TrueBrain: thanks
07:37*SpComb almost managed to miss his train
07:37<SpComb>I walked out of the train station and started wondering what train it was that was sitting there at the platform
07:39*Ammler is playing around with xfce Desktop
07:40<Ammler>nice idea with those "docks"
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07:58<@petern>vserver is nice.
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08:09<SpComb>it has its place alongside things like xen
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08:15*FauxFaux hearts xen.
08:16<welshdragon>FauxFaux, it's <3
08:17<FauxFaux>xen ❥ /me.
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08:24<@Celestar>a Big Boy needed up to 25 tons of coal per hour. That's about 7kg per second. were they fed manually?
08:29<ccfreak2k> It all seems so simple from the comfortable OpenTTD interface.
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08:31<@Celestar>ccfreak2k: yeah ;)
08:31<Doorslammer>Automatic I think
08:31<@Celestar>the labelling of the valves is impressive (=
08:32<@Celestar> <= I kind of prefer this :P
08:33<@petern>There's still a lot of butons on that...
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08:36<@Celestar>yeah, mainly for querying the train status and the "electronic timetable"
08:37<@Celestar>I still wonder whether the big steam engines had automatic "feeding" or if there were like 4 people busy shovelling coal
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08:40<@Celestar>so a Big Boy needed up to 25000 kg of coal per hour. Assuming 1kg of coal is around 25 MJ/mh, that's a thermal input of 625 000MJ per hour, or 173 MW
08:40<@Celestar>that's an efficiency of like 5%
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08:49<@petern>So do I want the security of vserver, or the ease of use of ... not using it?
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08:53<SpComb>petern: depends on what measure of security this is
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09:17<@petern>Just general "keep things separate" security.
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09:19<blathijs>It can also make things easier to manage (ie, use a new vserver for some testing, without messing up your existing setup)
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09:23<@petern>So far I've found that newvserver messes with the hosts /etc/motd, which is a bit odd.
09:25<@petern>I don't know why, though.
09:25<@petern>Maybe I'll ask in #debian :)
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09:40<+glx>@openttd port
09:40<@DorpsGek>glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
09:41<mcbane>george dont hang around here somtime by chance?
09:42<@Belugas>no, nor in #tycoon. he does not do IRC at all
09:43<+glx>we are lucky ;)
09:43<mcbane>ok =|
09:44<@Belugas>hehehe ;)
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10:48<@petern>Gah, I have to update my server to lenny to let vserver work properly :(
10:49<blathijs>I'm running vserver on etch, so it can work in general I think?
10:49<blathijs>though I think I might have compiled my own kernel with a newer kernel patch, though
10:50<@petern>Yes, it works, but etch's kernel does not work properly on my server.
10:52<@petern>Hmm, the OpenTTD dedicated server runs lenny...
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13:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r14443 /trunk/ (6 files): -Change: Unify the delimiters used in config* and make*
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13:21<@Bjarni>hello Wolf01
13:21<Wolf01>hi Bjarni!
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13:42<ln>nw: dexter 3x02 720
13:45<fjb>How can I tell a ./configure script where my lua installation is? I'm too stupid to compile anything C related...
13:46<@petern>Depends on the script. If it's a system-wide install it should be automatic.
13:47<fjb>It only looks a a standard place for one Linux distribution.
13:47<fjb>I set some shell varaibles:
13:47<fjb>setenv CPPFLAGS -I/usr/local/include/lua50
13:47<fjb>setenv LUA_EXEC /usr/local/bin/lua50
13:48<ln>autoconf hurts you and people around you.
13:48<@petern>usually ./configure --with-lua=/usr/local/include/lua50
13:48<@petern>or something like that
13:48<fjb>setenv LDFLAGS -L/usr/local/lib/lua5
13:48<fjb>setenv LDFLAGS -L/usr/local/lib/lua50
13:49<fjb>Ok, I will try that
13:51<fjb>./configure --with-lua=/usr/local/include/lua50 is not working
13:52<fjb>With my environment variables set I get:
13:52<fjb>checking for lua... /usr/local/bin/lua50
13:52<fjb>./configure: line 4968: test: -lt: unary operator expected
13:52<fjb>checking for library containing lua_open... none required
13:52<fjb>checking for library containing luaL_loadfile... no
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13:54<fjb>./configure --enable-lua=yes results in:
13:54<fjb>checking for lua... /usr/local/bin/lua50
13:54<fjb>./configure: line 4968: test: -lt: unary operator expected
13:54<fjb>checking for library containing lua_open... -llua
13:54<fjb>checking for library containing luaL_loadfile... no
13:54<fjb>But isn't lua_open and luaL_loadfile in the same lib?
13:55<fjb>grep says:
13:55<fjb>Binary file /usr/local/lib/lua50/ matches
13:56<fjb>Binary file /usr/local/lib/lua50/liblualib.a matches
13:56<fjb>Binary file /usr/local/lib/lua50/ matches
13:56<fjb>So what am I doing wrong? It finds lua_open but not luaL_loadfile.
13:58<Sacro>< fjb> So what am I doing wrong? <- spamming inanly
13:58<fjb>Thank you for your help.
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14:00<@petern>--with-lua=/usr/local might be enough
14:00<@petern>Failing that, you could install it in a properly location :p
14:04<fjb>This is not Linux. The location is proper for all other applications on this system.
14:05<Sacro>what OS?
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14:07<fjb> --with-lua=/usr/local doesn't find lua
14:08<fjb>setting CPPFLAGS and LDFLAGS finds lus, but only the functions from
14:08<fjb>It doesn't find the functions from
14:09<fjb>Stupid autoconf
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14:13<@petern>Does it say what version of Lua is expected?
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14:14<ln>is there a degrading word for football/soccer in english?
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14:15<@petern>Yeah, "soccer" ;)
14:16<fjb>I found lua50 in the configure script.
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14:17<fjb>It is even more stupid. It finds out that it needs lualib, but then fails with:
14:17<fjb>configure:5099: gcc -o conftest -g -O2 -I/usr/local/include/lua50 -L/usr/local/l
14:17<fjb>ib/lua50 conftest.c -llualib -lm -ldl -llua >&5
14:17<fjb>/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -ldl
14:18<fjb>So it apperently found the nedded llualib, but fails at -ldl, but complains about not finding lualib.
14:18<fjb>But what is dl? Stupid script.
14:19<@petern>dl is for dynamic linking
14:19<@petern>you appear to have a linux-centric program :p
14:20<fjb>Verry Linux centric. :-( There is only another version for Windows with mingw
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14:21<fjb>So I have to find the -ldl thing in the configure script and delete that string.
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14:24<fjb>That stupid dl thing was the problem. Thanks for your help, especially petern
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14:27<fjb>The script lets you set the path to and name of wx-config, but later on hardcodes it...
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14:34<@Belugas>loving it... there is no component that does what i need... so i've got to do it on my own
14:34<@Belugas>YEAH for GUIs!!!
14:35<Sacro>our uni called "X Windowing system" a GUI :(
14:35<MapperOG>You're talking about what right now?
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14:39<Zuu>I guess Belugas is talking about delphi but I could be wrong.
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14:41<fjb>Happy programming day. I love function name overloading in C++... :-(
14:42*Zuu wish he was programming, but he is putting powerpoint slides into a recorded lecuture
14:43<Sacro>Belugas: what ar eyou after?
14:43<@Belugas>Zuu is so right...
14:43<Zuu>Belugas: On delphi or wish for programming? ;)
14:45<Zuu>Now I have not looked on the jedi-project very much, but given that your delphi experience is longer than mine I guess you have tried that path.
14:47<fjb>What does the following try to tell me?
14:47<fjb>mainframe.cpp:93: error: conversion from `const char[4]' to `const wxString' is ambiguous
14:47<fjb>/usr/local/include/wx-2.8/wx/string.h:693: note: candidates are: wxString::wxString(wxChar, size_t) <near match>
14:47<fjb>/usr/local/include/wx-2.8/wx/string.h:682: note: wxString::wxString(int) <near match>
14:48<fjb>Both have the same name and now the compiler can not decide which one is more wrong?
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14:56<fjb>I bet they never compiles that piece of code before releasing it.
14:59<+glx>fjb: that's why explicit casts are a good thing
14:59<@Belugas>Zuu, on Delphi. I'm doing a face lift on our old app. Hell...
14:59<fjb>glx: And why overloading is not always helpful...
15:00<+glx>it is helpful but you need to be careful with types
15:00<ln>fjb: you're trying to build against wx unicode build, and your mainframe.cpp was not meant for unicode build.
15:01<ln>fjb: surround the string literal with wxT()
15:02<fjb>ln, thank you. That stupid configure script explicitly looked for the unicode version, so I thought that is ok.
15:02<fjb>I found the wxT() thing, they use it sometimes, but not always.
15:03<ln>fjb: in upcoming wx 3.0 the use of wxT() is not required nor recommended anymore, they are using UTF-8 rather than wide characters.
15:03<+glx>good change
15:03<fjb>It would be much easier if I would understand C++ better...
15:04<+glx>openttd uses the same thing
15:04<fjb>How do I convert: m_nutList->SetItem(ix, 4, info->dist_hostname);
15:04<+glx>(except for windows API calls)
15:04<fjb>m_nutList->SetItem(ix, 4, wxt(info->dist_hostname)); does not work
15:05<fjb>wxT ofcourse...
15:05<+glx>wxT() is for string litterals
15:05<ln>nope, it doesn't, because wxT is a preprocessor macro only, and it just adds something to the begin of what you give to it.
15:06<ln>fjb: wxString(info->dist_hostname, wxConvUTF8)
15:06<fjb>Ah. Thank you.
15:06<+glx>explicit cast ;)
15:07<fjb>I don't mind anything as long as I get this compiled and wiorking.
15:08<ln>explicit cast in that point would precisely make it compile and not work. :)
15:11<fjb>m_nutList->SetItem(ix, 4, wxString(info->dist_hostname, wxConvUTF8)); is not compiling :-(
15:12<fjb>mainframe.cpp:204: error: invalid conversion from `u_char*' to `const char*'
15:12<fjb>mainframe.cpp:204: error: initializing argument 1 of `wxString::wxString(const char*, const wxMBConv&, size_t)'
15:12<fjb>I shuld switch to wx without unicode support...
15:13<ln>err.. what's the type of info->dist_hostname?
15:13<ln>u_char*, whatever that is?
15:13<+glx>I usually have 4 "versions", unicode (+debug) and ansi (+debug)
15:13<ln>me too.
15:14<ln>fortunately all of those can be compiled into separate dirs, so the source is needed only once.
15:14<fjb>Don't know what it is... I switch to the version vithout unicode...
15:15<+glx>and I should update it (still using 2.8.5)
15:16<+glx>hmm double the versions (I forgot static/dynamic)
15:16<ln>something odd happens to panels between 2.8.6 and 2.8.8.
15:17<fjb>I'm having 2.8.8 and that stupid source wants 2.8.8. So there should be not that many problems.
15:18<ln>if you have a panel with some controls in a scrolledwindow, in >2.8.6 the panel will briefly "jump" to non-scrolled position when the controls are clicked. i haven't bothered to reproduce this in the samples, though.
15:20<ln>glx: do you use wx for work or for fun, and what platforms?
15:20<+glx>for fun and I use wxMSW
15:21<+glx>didn't used it recently though
15:22<ln>it's unfortunate how often one has to patch it in order to fix or enhance something.
15:27<ln>ok, who else has been secretly using wxWidgets?
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15:43<herojoker>how many grid fields of an industry building have to be in the catchment area of a train station to get material from it?
15:44<MapperOG>herojoker: I think just one - but I don't know for sure
15:44<MapperOG>(I also don't know if there's a percentage or something)
15:44<herojoker>currently, when building a station, one sees what a station will accept but now what it 'll get
15:44<Aali>you do in the latest nightlies
15:45<herojoker>so, a list of connected [material providing] industries (before building) would be nice
15:45<Aali>like i said, already done, its just not in any official release yet
15:45<herojoker>ok :)
15:45<herojoker>is it possible to see the catchment area also after building the object?
15:46<Aali>just hold the preview over what you already built :P
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15:46<Zuu>Aali: nightlies are as official as stable releases, the discussed feature should rather be said that it is not yet in a stable release than "not yet in an official release"
15:46<Roel1982>hi all
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15:47<Aali>Zuu: sure
15:47<Roel1982>does anyone know at witch port openttd runs in multiplayer?
15:47<Roel1982>when hosting game...
15:47<TrueBrain>@openttd port
15:47<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
15:48<Roel1982>tnx dorpsgek
15:48<herojoker>Aali: i don't understand "hold the preview over ..." :( how do i do that?
15:48<herojoker>(i'm a complete TT newbie)
15:50<Aali>herojoker: preview = the outline you get under the mouse pointer when you're building something
15:51<herojoker>oh ok...
15:51<herojoker>i would have expected to be able to see the catchment area without calling the construction menu ^^
15:52<herojoker>furthermore it would be nice if all catchment areas would be shown when building a new station
15:52<@Belugas>they are
15:52<@Belugas>just click on the button allowing it
15:53<Aali>well you'll only get the catchment area of whatever you're building
15:54<Aali>would be nice if you could see the entire stations catchment area
15:54<@Belugas>indeed, that's when you are realy needing it...
15:54<herojoker>Aali: that's what i meant :)
15:55<Aali>it would also be great if you could see which industries are actually covered by the catchment area, not just a list of cargo types
15:56<Aali>sure, you can work it out yourself with existing tools, but its tedious
15:56<herojoker>or the reverse: for each industry a list of connected stations
15:58<herojoker>arg, the game is a bit too fast for me... i get so many messages ^^
15:58<@Belugas>strange...just looking around, i can easily find all connected industries to a statuon...
15:58<@Belugas>or vice-versa :S
15:59<Aali>Belugas: i guess it depends on how complex your stations are
15:59<herojoker>Belugas: as a list/text or just visually?
16:00<Aali>i usually play with the distant join patch, not so i can actually join distant stations, i just want to be able to build stations next to each other
16:01<+glx>ctrl build
16:01<herojoker>mmh, wasn't there a grf which allows raising/lowering land with streets and rails on it?
16:02<herojoker>or do you think that's a cheat? ^^
16:02<+glx>a grf can't do that
16:02<Aali>glx: thats in trunk now?
16:02<herojoker>glx: oh, ok
16:03<+glx>Aali: "adjacent station" is in trunk (dunno for 0.6.x)
16:03<Aali>i did not now that
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16:08<Aali>but hey, thats cool, saves you the hassle of using waypoints just to keep your passenger trains away from freight platforms
16:11<herojoker>mmh, my train always immedeately leaves the depot :(
16:12<herojoker>but it has no orders
16:12<TrueBrain>don't start it yet
16:13<TrueBrain>so don't start it yet!
16:14<herojoker>ok, just realized that there seems to be a difference between setting the depot as a destination and using the depot button
16:14<herojoker>it also had cargo
16:15<Aali>depot orders cannot make a train stop in the depot
16:15<Aali>(without the right patch)
16:16<herojoker>cool, first time driving with full cargo wagons -> loco broke in the middle of the tour
16:16<herojoker>is there a button like "go to last view"?
16:17<herojoker>so e.g. when i accidently click on a news and it brings me to a completely other point on the map, i'd like to return directly
16:18<@petern>hmm, asterisk on debian/lenny doesn't half have a lot of dependencies :o
16:18<fjb>Ahhhhhhh, I hate wx...
16:19<TrueBrain>fjb: then don't bother us with it :p
16:19<@Belugas>herojoker, look in Message History
16:19<@Belugas>button left to the big red ? in main toolbar
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16:20<herojoker>yep, all messages are there...
16:20<+glx>Belugas: that wasnt his question ;)
16:20<@Belugas>ok... /e ducks
16:21<+glx>herojoker: there's no way to return where you were
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16:21<+glx>but it's funnier when you were building a track or landscaping
16:21<@Belugas>haaa... ok.. that...
16:22<herojoker>ok :/
16:24<herojoker>why is setting up the schedule not possible in pause mode? (but building vehicles and modifying schedule points is)
16:24<@Belugas>note that it's easy to compensate. whenever you are about to check obn something that could potentially transport you far from where you are, jsut create an extra viewport
16:25<@Belugas>then, just "Paste From Viewport" and you're back
16:25<herojoker>ok :D
16:26<herojoker>oh man, my native language is german but the english version seems much more understandable..
16:27<@Bjarni>I thought the German translation were one of the good ones :s
16:28<herojoker>the meaning of Paste from/Copy to viewport is clear, but Aus/In Zusatzansicht is just bad...
16:28<DJNekkid>is CB33 supported in Openttd?
16:30<herojoker>but overall the german translation seems ok :)
16:30<+glx>DJNekkid: it is
16:30<@Belugas>DJNekkid :
16:31<@petern>it is?
16:31<@Belugas>maybe not up to date,but quite close to it
16:32<herojoker>is there a way to rotate the view?
16:32<@petern>oh, yes
16:32<@petern>i was thinking of the ambient sound callback
16:32<+glx>herojoker: no
16:32<@Belugas>yes it is, petern :) You wrote it ;)
16:32<herojoker>ok, then i'll use the transparency settings :)
16:32<+glx>because there's only 1 view for each buildings
16:33<@petern>yeah, i was thinking of 144.
16:33<+glx>144 is not supported :)
16:33*Belugas wonders which grf features the 144 cb...
16:33*glx wonders the same
16:34<@petern>installing the package "asterisk" on lenny wants to install a full compiler environment, tons of dev libraries, odbc stuff... and kernel driver source
16:34<@petern>which is bloody stupid :(
16:34<@Belugas>let's modify the nightly, and as soon as a grf tries to set it up, make it crash with a big red box showing the grf file name ^_^
16:34<herojoker>is it possible to reorder the orders?
16:34<@petern>i'd compile it myself but i'd only have to install a full compiler environment to do that...
16:35*Bjarni wonders if the text in the viewport window should be changed to make it more clear
16:35*Belugas wonders if it's not too early to go home
16:35<DJNekkid>then i find it wierd why my CB33 wont work ... and it's even doublechecked with DaleStan :)
16:35<@Bjarni>if you read the Danish translation, then it looks like the meaning of the buttons is switched
16:36-!-Aylomen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:36<@Belugas>DJNekkid, the best way to know if your grf is fine, is to make it run on TTDP
16:37<DJNekkid>well, the entire grf is made for Open with out-of-range vehicle IDs...
16:37<herojoker>hey cool, just noticed that in windowed mode the resolution is not fixed :D
16:38<@Bjarni>I have known that for ages :)
16:38<@Bjarni>but yeah, it's really nice
16:38<@Belugas>DJNekkid: extract the noisy part and make one compatible with ttdp, i gues it would not take you too long
16:38<@Bjarni>I don't think the window size have ever been fixed
16:38<DJNekkid>true enough :)
16:38<Zuu>Belugas: Did you take a look on my patch some week ago? Or did my warnings scare you to much? ;)
16:38<Zuu>(the widget focus patch)
16:38<@Belugas>i forgot it all
16:39<SpComb>that's what she said
16:39<@Belugas>i'm having a hell of a workload at work
16:39<Zuu>Ok, I've made two updates since I talked to you about it.
16:39<herojoker>mmh, are trains self repairing?
16:39<Zuu>Ok, that is just fine. I've been bussy the last week too...
16:39<@Bjarni>herojoker: that depends on what you mean by self repairing
16:40<@Bjarni>if they break down, then yes they will move on their own after a while
16:40<@Belugas>Zuu: thing is, i've got ono clue when i'll be free again, even at home.
16:40-!-FR^2 [] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by caffein depletion...]
16:40<@Belugas>and i have quite a few projects for Open that need to be finished... :S
16:40<@Bjarni>looks like I share a problem with Belugas then :(
16:40<herojoker>hmm, i really need 2 screens...
16:41<@Belugas>i guess, Bjarni.
16:41<@Belugas>herojoker, i do, and it rocks :)
16:41<@Bjarni>Belugas: do you know any solution to that kind of problem?
16:41<Zuu>Belugas: Ok, might bug someone else, through that will probably be not this week.
16:42<herojoker>Belugas: is it possible to let OTTD use both?
16:42<@Bjarni><herojoker> hmm, i really need 2 screens... <-- if you have two screens, then you can make the window really wide to cover both monitors :D
16:42<@Belugas>Zuu : there are at least two people you can "bug" about that, but i doubt they like to be bugged either way :)
16:42<Zuu>hehe :p
16:42<@Belugas>Bjarni, apart not been involved in coding, no
16:42<@Belugas>herojoker, try and yoyu will see
16:43<Zuu>Guess nobody really like to get buged..
16:43<@Belugas>Zuu, no, not really
16:43<Zuu>Coding on your own stuff is much more fun :D
16:43<herojoker>Belugas: ok, shall i setup an amazon wishlist, so that you can buy me the screen? ^^
16:43<@Belugas>and now, i'm bugging home
16:43<@Bjarni>Zuu: ensure that your bug... err patch is really for committing and that it have been tested real good
16:43<@Bjarni>also ensure that it has the correct amount of comments
16:43<@Bjarni>and apply to coding style and so on
16:44<@Bjarni>then it might be a bit easier to make people look at it
16:44<Zuu>Bjarni: Yea, I've been looking over the comments. but there can always be more work to it.
16:44<@Bjarni>but there is no easy way to ensure it though :/
16:44<@Belugas>Bjarni, i trust Zuu for that. He is doing some good stuff, very innovative, should I add :)
16:44*Belugas is gone
16:44<herojoker>hmm, rounded curves are missing :(
16:45<@Bjarni>good... Belugas just confirmed my impression of Zuu. Now all you have to do is to live up to that impression :)
16:45<Zuu>Bjarni: Hehe
16:45<@Belugas>herojoker, if your playing locomotion yes, but you are playing openttd. no rounded curvs in here
16:45*Belugas is really gone now!
16:45<Aali>maybe he's talking about roads
16:46<herojoker>Belugas: never played that ^^
16:46<herojoker>have you played simutrans?
16:47<@Bjarni>I tried it once
16:47<@Bjarni>it has some nice features
16:47<@Bjarni>it's like a collection of nice features that somehow fails to work together to produce a nice game
16:48<@Bjarni>I think the biggest problem is the user interface
16:48<ln>the things are too small
16:48<@Bjarni>ln: please put your pants on again and stop talking about it
16:49-!-fonso [] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.7 :]
16:49<herojoker>do you know a simulation which uses more realistic proportions? the 'cities' in TT/simutrans are so small...
16:50<herojoker>and quite near to each other
16:50<Aali>cities in TT don't have to be small
16:50<Aali>thats just the map generators fault
16:51<Aali>it tries to make playable maps, not realistic ones :P
16:51<@petern>right, i figured out how to make apt ignore Recommends
16:51<herojoker>:) i know, that's why i've asked for another app
16:52<herojoker>i was just wondering whether such sims exist
16:53<herojoker>has it been estimated how big a block would be in reality? (in meters^2)
16:54<Aali>you mean a tile?
16:55<@Bjarni>I think so
16:55<herojoker>yes, tile
16:55<@Bjarni>but if we make it that realistic then a tile would have to be rather small if it only allows one railroad track
16:55<@Bjarni>meaning certain stuff like ships would be rather big
16:55<herojoker>that's right
16:55<Zuu>Bjarni: I'll make a list of things that I think are most questionable in the design of the patch so the person who will review it can start looking there.
16:56<@Bjarni>and fill way too many tiles
16:56<herojoker>in such games i usually see those graphics only as represenations
16:56<@Bjarni>Zuu: good idea. A well written description of the intended purpose would also be nice ;)
16:57<@Bjarni>herojoker: and that's the way you should think about it
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16:57<Zuu>I think some of the purpose is written in the flyspray, but indeed it become culettered after many replies etc.
16:57<herojoker>again, i was just wondering whether there actually is a sim (available to the public) where you can build 500km long tracks :)
16:57-!-Wezz6400_ [] has quit []
16:57<herojoker>(with realistic sizes)
16:58-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:59<Zuu>A small guide of what have been done could probably also help. Since reading a patch file from top down is not always the best way to understand what it does.
16:59<@Bjarni>herojoker: MS train sim might be able to handle that if your computer is powerful enough
17:00<ln>Rail Simulator is something newer, from the people who made MSTS.
17:00<@Bjarni>oh right
17:01<@Bjarni>the question is which one can handle the longest track
17:01<@Bjarni>I don't know if trainz is any good at this either
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17:07<@Bjarni>actually I wonder why such a length would be important
17:08<@Bjarni>I'm perfectly happy with distances below 50 km
17:08<ln>as irl
17:09<@Bjarni>it allows you to be able to learn the tracks
17:09<@Bjarni>like every curve and hill
17:10<ln>the famous hills of denmark
17:10<@Bjarni>actually we have quite a number of them
17:11<@Bjarni>on the cheaply built railroads
17:11<DJNekkid>lol ... "the daily double" (horse trotting or something) did turn on the TV ... a horse did have the name "nice bender"
17:11<@Bjarni>our hills is like up, down, up, level, up, down.... you get the idea
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17:14<herojoker>Bjarni: such lengths would be important for a realistic post transportation system
17:14<herojoker>e.g. if i wanted to simulate the whole post transportation network of germany
17:15<herojoker>but that's not a game anymore ^^
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17:17<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... i have an anomaly in my music database
17:17<Eddi|zuHause2>most of the LotR soundtrack pieces have a playcount between 30 and 50
17:17<Eddi|zuHause2>but one has a playcount of 600
17:17-!-Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
17:18<Zuu>herojoker: Why not get into transportation work field instead of simulating it. Or well the fist does not exclude the later... :)
17:18<Eddi|zuHause2>which makes it the 3rd most played in my current playlist
17:18<Eddi|zuHause2>after a piece with 1600 and one with 800
17:19<ln>and the one is The bridge of Khazad'dum.
17:19<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, actually not
17:19<Eddi|zuHause2>it's Forth Eorlingas
17:19<ln>damn, my palantír is broken then.
17:19<Zuu>Since simulation is a heavily used tool in traffic enginering for example.
17:21<Eddi|zuHause2>it's Khazad-dûm btw
17:21<herojoker>Zuu: yes, that's an option :) i'm currently studying mathematics (subsidiary subject: computer science), so perhaps it'll be even possible for me to be active in this field :)
17:21<Eddi|zuHause2>you can have almost any job with that kind of degree ;)
17:22<Zuu>mathematics is a good entry point. A friend took mathematics first before she moved to the traffic enginering program I am taking.
17:22<herojoker>i'm now starting my master studies in bonn :)
17:22<Zuu>The traffic models can become quite complex, so good understanding is of good use.
17:23-!-Volley [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:23<Zuu>good understanding of math*
17:23<ln>Eddi|zuHause2: oh, yes. and the Babylon 5 author Scrazynzskjdfksjd cleverly named the one dangerous place "Za'ha'dum".
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>i have never watched the full series...
17:24<herojoker>i heard it's quite good
17:24<ln>it's okayish, but not as good as people say.
17:24<Zuu>herojoker: You've got a bachlor first? (I will only get a master, no bachlor since they just recently changed the organization and I only have two year left to my degree, if I take everything on time ;) )
17:24<ln>and it copies many details from LotR.
17:25<herojoker>Zuu: yes, i'm currently finishing my bachelor thesis
17:26<Eddi|zuHause2>hey... i have like... -2 years left if i take everything on time :p
17:26<Eddi|zuHause2>"Regelstudienzeit ist überbewertet"
17:26-!-Roel1982 [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
17:27<herojoker>unfortunately bafög support is bound to it, Eddi
17:28<Zuu>Our "master" used to be 4,5 year without a bachlor half way degree. But is changing to the bachlor + master system of 5 years in total as used in most other countries.
17:28<Zuu>(in Europe at least)
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17:29<herojoker>now that i live in a dormitory i realize that listening to music loudly is a luxury
17:30<Eddi|zuHause2>herojoker: there are worse problems than bafög... like some idiots actually decided on studying fees for everybody who is more than 2 years overdue
17:31<Eddi|zuHause2>my bafög was like 10€ in the end ;)
17:31<herojoker>especially because in orchestral pieces i also want to here the rearmost string...
17:31<herojoker>eddi: :-(
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17:32<Eddi|zuHause2>it was more in the beginning, but when siblings finish studying your bafög goes down because the base income of your parents gets divided by less siblings
17:33<herojoker>oh, i won't have this problem ^^
17:36<herojoker>but instead of this i have other problems caused by bureaucracy... mmh, hungry now (wow, we're really OT)
17:37<Eddi|zuHause2>example: parent's income boils down to 600€ "spare" for supporting students, 3 siblings are to be considered, so each one gets a share of 200€, bafög limit is 350€, so each sibling gets 350€-200€ = 150€. now one sibling finishes studying, so the 600€ get divided by two, so now the two siblings get 350€-300€=50€ bafög. so instead of 3*150€=450€ the family only gets 2*50€=100€ support
17:38<herojoker>(i was saying that to Sacro)
17:38<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: YOU BROKE MY TERMINAL D:
17:38-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Eddi|zuHause2 broke my terminal D:]
17:38<herojoker>Eddi: there is elternunabhängiges bafög
17:38-!-ben_ [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:39-!-ben_ is now known as Sacro
17:39<Eddi|zuHause2>herojoker: you only get that if you lived alone for 3 years before studying
17:39<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: €€?
17:39<herojoker>oh ok
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17:41<Eddi|zuHause2>the system is really broken in that aspect... the divisor should be the total number of children, not the number of children eligible for bafög
17:41<Sacro>oh, no utf8
17:41<+glx>Sacro: ö ?
17:41<+glx>herojoker: your client failed
17:42<Sacro>fix'd it
17:42<herojoker>c'mon, that's not a good test
17:42<Eddi|zuHause2>damn, i need new ways to break Sacro's terminal
17:42-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
17:42-!-ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Quit: ecke]
17:43<herojoker>mmh, my client can't display that...
17:43<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause2: What language is "bafög", tried with both german and whatever the language of the nederlands is called in english in google translate.
17:43<herojoker>Zuu: german
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: it's an abbreviation
17:43-!-Frostregen_ [] has joined #openttd
17:43<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: Ok, what does it stand for?
17:43<herojoker>Zuu: Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz
17:43<+glx>herojoker: write in utf8 please
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>%BB%Bundes %BA%Busbildungs%Bfö%Brderungs %BG%Besetz
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>Bundes Ausbildungsförderungs Gesetz
17:45<herojoker>mmh, do you know a good irc client which is also free?
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>i use Konversation
17:45<Zuu>herojoker: Xchat
17:45<+glx>I use KVIrc
17:45<herojoker>i'm currently bound to winxp
17:45<Zuu>Depending on the amonut of freeness you need if you are on windows.
17:45<+glx>I'm on winXP too
17:45<herojoker>Zuu: ok, i'll try that
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>they are working on a windows/kde4 version currently, i believe
17:46<herojoker>oh wait wiki says: btw, do you know
17:46<herojoker>Proprietary for Windows version
17:47<herojoker>As of August 23, 2004, the official Windows build of XChat has become shareware, and must be purchased for USD $20
17:47<+glx>there are free xchat builds for windows
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17:47<Zuu>herojoker: But since the source is GPL there are free xchat builds for windows as glx said.
17:47-!-Zorn [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:47<Zuu>puting xchat + windows in google gave me this:
17:48<herojoker>though i'm not using google, i've also just found the silverex build :-)
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17:51<herojoker>oh no, xchat is not available for AmigaOS ;-)
17:52<herojoker>i will now Use Dish with Microwave ^^
17:53<Sacro>love silverex
17:53<Sacro>though using irssi atm
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>"you solved this sudoku in 986 minutes and 38 seconds"
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, i started it this morning before i went to work, and i couldn't finish it in time :p
17:59<Zuu>Night guys
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18:03<@Bjarni> <herojoker> i'm currently bound to winxp <--- somebody showed me his laptop today. He upgraded to XP (from vista) and he said "now it's able to execute all apps and it's way faster"
18:04<@Bjarni>so you could do worse than XP
18:04<@Bjarni>but you could do better too
18:04<herojoker>imo xp is the best windows version yet
18:04<fjb>Network stack of Vista is faster than the one of xp.
18:05<+glx>unzipping a file is way slower on vista
18:05<Tefad>herojoker: you need at least SP2 to say that
18:05<@Bjarni>the network stack isn't important if you can tell the speed difference in explorer right away
18:06<Tefad>if i ever use windows as a desktop OS again, i will not be using the standard shell.
18:06<herojoker>yep, i'm using sp2 (i'm always postponing sp3 installation...)
18:07<@Bjarni>I have XP... it's just not on the default boot partition :)
18:07<herojoker>Tefad: which one would you use?
18:07<Tefad>the one that doesn't suck
18:07<Ammler>that spam on is a good anonymizer
18:07<@Bjarni>basically it's for whenever I need to execute something windows only
18:07<Tefad>in linux i can boot into a graphical environment and consume less than 40MB RAM
18:08<Tefad>i think vista sucks 200MB just booting.
18:08<herojoker>actually i want to use gentoo...
18:08<Tefad>then another 200MB for your office app preload and virus scanner.
18:08<@Bjarni>that is if it's usable
18:08<herojoker>but i started with a 64bit install, but then saw that it's not usable yet ^^
18:08<Tefad>what? i'm in 64bit gentoo right now
18:09<Tefad>my friend has 64bit gentoo laptop
18:09<herojoker>my wlan card wasn't supported at that time
18:09<Tefad>with silly 3d window manager
18:09<Tefad>neither is his. he has to use ndiswrapper with a vista driver
18:09<herojoker>i also tried that, but there was no 64bit driver
18:09<herojoker>for no os
18:10<Tefad>i see. fun!
18:10<Tefad>he was lucky to find the vista driver
18:10<herojoker>yeah, just forgot to make that clear *before* starting to install gentoo...
18:11<@Bjarni>64bit is totally overrated
18:11<herojoker>(started with lan but had to switch to wlan)
18:11<Eddi|zuHause><Tefad> in linux i can boot into a graphical environment and consume less than 40MB RAM <- well, that's after many hours of custom crafting... i'm not sure if that is really worth the effort
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18:11<Tefad>CUSTOM CRAFTING?! bahaha
18:11<Tefad>that's my standard start up : )
18:11<herojoker>arch linux?
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>well, my standard suse installation had a noticeable speedup when i upgraded from 512MB to 1GB of RAM
18:12<herojoker>is there a C version of portage now?
18:12<Aali>wait a minute, the only requirement here is a graphical environment?
18:12<Tefad>Aali: uh, preferably X11
18:12<Aali>you could do that with 16mb or less
18:13<Tefad>yes, i could.. but then i wouldn't have a decent video driver
18:13<Tefad>i think nvidia's is at least 8MB
18:13<Tefad>giant blob.
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18:13<Tefad>and i typically run a few bash instances as a meg a pop
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>sure, some memory optimising is good, but there is a balance where the effort cancels out the gain
18:14<@Bjarni>The Amiga 500 did ok for a graphical environment with only 512k of memory
18:14<Aali>Bjarni: but it didn't run linux
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>imho, usability weighs much more than a small memory footprint
18:14<herojoker>Tefad: have the C-based boot scripts established now?
18:14<@Bjarni>so 40 mb sounds nice
18:14<Tefad>herojoker: don't know
18:15<Sacro>Bjarni: i'm getting my A500 here tommorow
18:15<fjb>Hey, my strange C++ thing is running. Thanks to all who helped.
18:15<herojoker>iirc that was on the plan for the new baselayout
18:15<@Bjarni>wanna try porting OpenTTD to it?
18:15<ln>Bjarni: what have you found out about ethernet?
18:16<@Bjarni>it can transfer data
18:16<fjb>I have an Amiga 1000. :-)
18:16<Sacro>Bjarni: aye, can do
18:16-!-Wezz6400 [] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...]
18:16<@Bjarni>and you can transmit 1 Gbit/sec in full duplex even when the cable only claims to be able to handle 100 Mb/s :D
18:16<herojoker>i had a cdtv
18:16<Tefad>what cable?
18:17<herojoker>and many cracked games on floppy disks...
18:17<Tefad>cat5 is enough for short runs of gige
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>max speed depends on the cable quality, and cable length
18:20<herojoker>isn't the category number summarizing that?
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18:23<herojoker>i'm now using xchat (o.O the title bar says YChat)
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18:24<Tefad>the 'standard' length for ethernet on copper is 100m (~300ft)
18:24<Tefad>10M can deal with cat3, 100M wants cat5, 1G wants cat5e, 10G wants cat6a
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>my longest cable is 20m, i believe
18:25-!-Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
18:25<Tefad>i think that's how it works. 1G can run on regular cat5 for 30m, likewise with 10G on regular cat6
18:25-!-Yeggzzz [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:25<Tefad>i think for very short distances 10G will run on cat5e
18:26<ln>Bjarni: is there even such thing as 1 Gbit half duplex? no?
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there is, but who is insane enough to enable that? :p
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, where do you get all those carrier pidgeons from? :p
18:27-!-herojoker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:27<@SmatZ>maybe there is, but most ethernet cards don't support that
18:28-!-herojoker [] has joined #openttd
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>brain function reset by beer?
18:31-!-herojoker [] has quit []
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18:31<herojoker>now xchat should be configured properly :)
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18:54<herojoker>damn, silverex crashes when minimizing to tray :(
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>that's... unfortunate :p
18:55-!-Chrill [] has quit []
18:58<herojoker>i'm just reading about Autoreplace ^
19:03<herojoker>good night
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19:14<@Bjarni><ln> Bjarni: is there even such thing as 1 Gbit half duplex? no? <-- if I recall correctly, there is support for it in IEEE. However I have yet to see 1 Gbit hardware that lacks support for full duplex
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 07 00:00:20 2008