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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-10-11

---Logopened Sat Oct 11 00:00:46 2008
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00:35<@Celestar>:S
00:35<@Celestar>something is _very_ wrong with my ISP today
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01:12<Sacro>sigh, wireshark is so comple
01:12<Sacro>x
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01:52<A_Person>wow, I still have release version 0.4.1
01:53<Sacro>lol
01:54<A_Person>Haven't played in over a year
01:54<A_Person>Hi
01:56<Sacro>heh, hey
01:56<A_Person>I wonder if any super high volume railway station freaks are abou
01:56<Sacro>probably are
01:56<A_Person>Not you? :P
01:56<Sacro>I aim for more realistic than ZOMG LIKE HUEG CAPACITY
01:57<A_Person>Heh
01:57<A_Person>an experiment or a sort of scenario I tried to create back then has decided to haunt me today
01:58<A_Person>utterly unrealistic
01:59<A_Person>but it required a two point railway that seemed to lack capacit for the amount of goods the game can supply it with
02:06<Eddi|zuHause>damn... i have a severe case of jet lag
02:06<Eddi|zuHause>but i only went to the airport and back (40 minutes each way)
02:06<A_Person>Hehe
02:06<A_Person>I woke up 18 hours ago
02:06<A_Person>it's the buzz!
02:09<Sacro>i've been awake 13 hours
02:09<Sacro>it is 0710 now
02:09<A_Person>a couple hours later here
02:10<A_Person>Haven't seen that format in a while
02:18<Sacro>what format?
02:25<A_Person>0 instead of :
02:25<A_Person>;P
02:25*A_Person makes some honey coffee
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02:29*A_Person is rea-learning http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Advanced_signalling_examples
02:29*Sacro is readingabout WWII
02:29<A_Person>uuu
02:30<Sacro>Yeah
02:30<Sacro>quite interesting
02:30<A_Person>Anything new there? :P
02:30<Sacro>well i'm writing up local council minutes for 1938
02:30<Sacro>it's interesting just how much war preparation there is going on
02:30<A_Person>minutes?
02:30<Sacro>logs from council meetings
02:31<A_Person>Right, a proper historian there, huh
02:31<Sacro>nah
02:36<A_Person>Hm, might have failed my coffee, could have poured too cool water :/
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04:04<Wolf01>hello
04:06<A_Person>Hi
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04:49<Sacro>hm, the gimp pallete in svn is invalid
04:49<Sacro>oh
04:50<Sacro>it's all html'y D:
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04:50<@petern>Er, what palette?
04:51<Sacro>never mind...
04:51<Sacro>I grabbed the html file
04:51<Sacro>not the original
04:51<Sacro>right, time to do BRSignals.grf
04:53<Sacro>time to get rid of the silly practice of having YAPP signals with boxes
04:54<Sacro>a non-yapp signal should have a black and white box
04:54<@petern>Boxes?
04:54<Sacro>yeah, currently a yapp signal has a yellow box
04:54<@petern>Oh, well blame MB ;)
04:54<Sacro>but IRL an automatic signal has a marker
04:54<Sacro>whereas a controlled doesn't
04:55<Sacro>hmm, shall I do different semaphore styles
04:56<Sacro>right, which palette colours are special...
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05:28<fjb>Hello
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06:13<dih>http://binaries.ttdpatch.net/nightlies/trunk/ <- this worked out well for a very long time
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06:20<dih>@seen Celestar
06:20<@DorpsGek>dih: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 5 hours, 45 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Celestar> something is _very_ wrong with my ISP today
06:20<dih>:-(
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06:39<dih>how does cargodest handle pbi ?
06:42<Ammler>cargodest has newindustry support.
06:42<Ammler>it has just troubles with cargo which arrives while the industry doesn't accept a type temporarly because of excess.
06:46<@petern>It behaves exactly as expected.
06:49<SpComb>how should I expect it to behave?
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06:57<MOG>can I play old savegames from ttd?
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07:01<roboboy>MOG yes although certain TTDPatch switches may be incompatible if you used TTDPatch
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07:17<dih>@seen pikka
07:17<@DorpsGek>dih: pikka was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 2 days, 3 hours, 40 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <Pikka> how terribly terribly!
07:17<dih>hmmm
07:20<dih>Wolf01, are you around?
07:20<Wolf01>no, I'm here :D
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07:21<HyperServX>hey folks
07:21<dih>sweet
07:21<HyperServX>can anybody tell me, how to edit vehicle attributes (f.e. trains) in openttd or if there is a tool to do it
07:22<@SmatZ>HyperServX: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=NewGraphicsSpecs
07:24<HyperServX>ahh good. thx !!! :)
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07:24<d-mike|micha>is there an option to get the game slower? i mean that one day goes longer than 3 seconds?!
07:26<Swallow>there is a daylength patch...
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07:28<d-mike|micha>hm
07:30<dih>search the forums for daylength :-P
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07:48<Phazorx>for these who are affected by glx's prettying up delimters in 14443, is there a diff w/o leading slashes?
07:48<Phazorx>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/14443?format=diff&new=14443
07:48<Phazorx>like that one but sort of propered to relative paths?
07:49<Ammler>you could use the "hg sed": sed "/---/ s|a/||;/+++/ s|b/||;" patch > patch
07:49<Phazorx>heh
07:50<Ammler>replace a/ with /trunk/
07:50<@petern>Phazorx, glx != skidd13
07:51<Phazorx>sorry if i blmed wrong person, but question remains
07:51-!-CommanderZ [511eee28@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
07:51<CommanderZ>hi
07:51<@SmatZ>hi CommanderZ
07:53<CommanderZ>pls, what is the fourth and fifth parameter in SDT_CONDVAR macro in setting.cpp? they are labeled "from" and "to", but I can't figure out what to put in there
07:53<Alberth>savegame revision numbers afaik
07:54-!-luso [~luso@bl7-180-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
07:54<luso>hello
07:54<CommanderZ>aah, so once this will change the savegame format?
07:54<luso>can you tell me if exist some internet page that explay, how make a public server in openttd?
07:54<Alberth>from would become next(?) savegame number, to is max number
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07:55<Ammler>luso: didn't you believe Progman?
07:55<Alberth>luso: I would be highly surprised if nobody ever discussed this subject at the forums
07:56<Ammler>but search for Multiplayer at wiki.openttd.org
07:56<luso>thanks
07:56<luso>i must go (supermarket) :)
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08:05<MOG>I had some troubles playing in LAN with the 0.6.3-111 build, anyone knows an idea why?
08:05<MOG>s/knows/have
08:05<MOG>s/have/has oh boy..
08:09<@SmatZ>no
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08:20<Alberth>MOG: it may help if you actually tell what 'trouble' is
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08:42<MOG>Alberth: an immediately unsync in the minute I press unpause
08:45<Alberth>MOG: I have very little experience with such problems. Do you have any communication at all? (OpenTTD exchanges quite some data normally)
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>who made that build?
08:45<MOG>it's the build that comes with opensuse
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>maybe they made modifications that they shouldn't have?
08:46<MOG>that could indeed be a problem
08:46<MOG>I thought about downloading the svn version - or is that a totally stupid idea for mp?
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>versions must match exactly
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08:47<MOG>it's only for playing at home ;) so same revision shouldn't be a problem
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>0.6.3 must play with 0.6.3 only, r12345 must play with r12345 only
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>and if you go all experimental on openttd, you could try the cargodest version ;)
08:48<MOG>cargodest version?
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>never mind
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08:52<Timmey>When will be the first beta of 0.7.0 released?
08:52<roboboy>in many months if not a year
08:52<Timmey>what? real
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09:15<+glx>roboboy: usually we say "when it's done" ;)
09:16<roboboy>yeah
09:16<roboboy>but I thought id give times and I forgot about when its done (:
09:16<+glx>but your version is nive too
09:17<+glx>*vice
09:17<+glx>nice
09:17<+glx>(stupid fingers not doing what I want)
09:18<roboboy>a year is a bit long but thats how long it took 0.4.1 to get to 0.5.0 or thats how long I remember
09:18<Vikthor>glx: Don't drink & type :p
09:18<+glx>I don't
09:18<roboboy>hehe
09:18<roboboy>drinking & typing kills the internet
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>every time you mistype, god kills an intartube?
09:20<Ammler>roboboy: there was at one other branch between 0.4.1 and 0.5, wasn't?
09:20<Alberth>roboboy: nah, pouring beer in internet switches does :P
09:21<Ammler>at least
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>there was no 0.4.1
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>there was a 0.4.5 though
09:21<roboboy>oops
09:22<roboboy>thats right 0.4.0.1
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10:08<Ammler>arel the scripts of the compile farm availabe
10:08<Ammler>are
10:08<Ammler>(just wondering, how it compiled successful while all I know failed...)
10:10<Ammler>svn branch about is one year old.
10:12-!-dragonhorseboy [4a396fef@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
10:12<dragonhorseboy>hey
10:15-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fff53.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
10:19<dragonhorseboy>any of you in here ever been to the Hindenburgdamm area?
10:19<dragonhorseboy>(near germany)
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>where is that supposed to be?
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10:21<ln>i'd guess here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hindenburgdammmap.png
10:22<dragonhorseboy>heh ty..didn't noticed any maps myself before In
10:22<@petern>notice
10:22<@petern>ln
10:22<ln>who's In?
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'm in!
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>why didn't you say "Sylt" then? everybody knows where that is...
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>and no, i have never been there
10:27<dragonhorseboy>seem interesting for a rail-only island link neverminding all photos of cars-carrying trains
10:30<dragonhorseboy>heh so what you three doing now?
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10:35<SpComb>someone want to grab a screenshot of the in-game OpenTTD server list, sorted by date, for me?
10:35<SpComb>I can't as the MyOTTD IPs are broken via NAT for me
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>reading about how, after 4 months into building the dam, a flood destroyed everything, and they started over
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10:38<Eddi|zuHause>1927 they opened the rail line, and 1932 they started transporting cars
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10:45<Leopard>hello
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10:46<Leopard>i have a question because my trains sometimes do negative income
10:47<Alberth>Leopard: does this help? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39161&p=733073&hilit=negative+income#p733073
10:49<dih>Leopard, try letting them transport something :-D
10:50<Leopard>oh shit. i didnt search the forum. *die with shame*
10:51<Leopard>thank you a lot and have a nice weekend
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11:21<A_Person>I wonder if I update my openttd version my savegames will survive intact
11:22<Leopard>depends on versions
11:22<A_Person>0.4.something
11:22<A_Person>heh
11:22<Alberth>update elsewhere, and try
11:23<A_Person>hmm, cleveryou
11:24<Alberth>savegames can usually (always?) be loaded, going back to the old version is often not possible
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>unless you made any modifications, all old savegames should be loaded in a newer version
11:25<A_Person>hmm, now if I could remember where my TTD install is, hmm
11:26<Alberth>use find facility of the OS
11:28*SpComb digs up the MyOTTD topic
11:29<Muxy>Hello Open TTD World. New function http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=39971
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11:36<ccfreak2k>I agree with the second poster; cleaning the company after x months of inactivity is better.
11:36<ccfreak2k>IMO.
11:36-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43482.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
11:37<Ammler>ccfreak2k: that are 2 different things
11:37<Ammler>that patch would "clean" if someone just joins to take a look and leave again
11:38<Ammler>if I got it right
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11:38<Alberth>Ammler: how often does that happen?
11:38<Ammler>I do that that way
11:38<Ammler>if I can
11:38<Ammler>don't use spectaro
11:39<Ammler>because if you like the map, you would need to rejoin, just to create a map.
11:40<Ammler>to create a company
11:41<Ammler>well, the company has also no pw, so someone else can join and take over it...
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11:45<Muxy>can talk about it.
11:46<Muxy>the reply talk about a network connection lost
11:48<Muxy>and it possible to distinguish between a lost connection and a normal leaving
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12:07<ccfreak2k>I.e. any case where the client doesn't tell the server that it's leaving.
12:08<Muxy>sory ?
12:10<SpComb>Muxy: should be
12:11<Muxy>what should be ?
12:11<SpComb>being able to tell why the connection was lost
12:12<Muxy>well, it is in the code. and u get the message in the console : leaving or connection lost
12:13*SpComb doesn't know what the OpenTTD code does
12:15<Muxy>That's my 1st reply in the post : the server is able to know if it's normal leaving (user select leave game) or if it's a lost connection. So in the patch I clean the company if it has ZERO vehicle and if it's not a lost connection.
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12:25<A_Person>hmm, I seem to be unable to find any pages describing ridiculously huge flow TTD train stations
12:25-!-Zoney [~Zoney@c-76-127-237-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
12:25<Zoney>hi everybody!
12:25<Zoney>i have some multiplayer qs
12:26<Zoney>when i start a internet game. it dose not show up in the list. how do i know what the games ip is?
12:37<Muxy>Hi Zoney, what do you mean by internet game : server ?
12:42<Zoney>yes
12:43<Zoney>a server but it never shows up in the list
12:47<Muxy>in what list ? openttd server list ?
12:50<Zoney>yes
12:51<+glx>is it visible on servers.openttd.org?
12:51<Zoney>i dont think so
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12:51<Muxy>did u select the publish option ?
12:52<+glx>did you configure your router?
12:52<+glx>@openttd ports
12:52<@DorpsGek>glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
12:53<Zoney>yes i selected advertisv
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12:56<Muxy>u have a 0.6.3 release ?
12:57<Muxy>OS : windows, linux ? if windows : firewall ?
12:58<Zoney>windows and6.3 yes.. i think i may have a firewall what ever windows comes with
12:58<Muxy>external firewall ?
13:00<Muxy>what about the windows firewall. anyway i think it will let out..
13:00<Zoney>windows firewall is what i have.. it hasent poped up and asked me if i want to unblock it or anything
13:01<Muxy>so can you set it up to let openttd send its stuff out ?
13:02<Muxy>but after, if u want players to connect, and have a router, you wil have to redirect the port on which the server listen
13:03<Zoney>alrighty ill try that. thanks:D
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13:20<A_Person>ottd could use some more large scale view scales
13:20<A_Person>levels*
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13:33<Eddi|zuHause>Question: randomized station names have routines for checking the surrounding of the station to choose certain suitible names (like "Mine" when a mine is near, or "Woods" when trees are near). how hard would it be to expose similar functionality to the town name generator (and especially newgrfs), so e.g. certain townname parts can only appear when a town is near water, or on top of a hill, or similar?
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13:36<+glx>town name is just a number
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i'm aware of that
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>but in germany, some duplicate towns are often described by a suffix, like Halle (Saale) is near the river Saale, while Halle (Westphalen) is in the country of Westphalen, now calling a town with a river name is only suitible when there actually is a river near there
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>so when no water is found near the town, the suffixes for river names should have a probability of 0 being generated
13:39<+glx>the name displayed is asked to the generator each time it's displayed
13:39<Muxy>it means tha u must qualify them in the grf
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes. the suffix is still there for displaying, but the probability of generating it is 0
13:40<+glx>what happens if the water amount changes ?
13:40<frosch123>I guess Eddi is heading for a callback that can deny a random number on while turn founding
13:40<frosch123>s/turn/town/
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, something like that
13:41<+glx>name generator is just an imbrication of switches
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes, so the same number must under any circumstance return the same name
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>so there might be a way to deny certain numbers as invalid when generating them
13:44<+glx>yes it's totally deterministic, and different numbers can return the same name too
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>like numbers are invalid when the name is duplicate
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>so at the place of this duplication check, there could also be this hypothetical callback
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>so a suffix can be flagged as "needs to be near water", and if the callback fails, the number is discarded as invalid
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13:46<+glx>I think you can't flag the suffix, but you can use something similar to the name determination
13:47<frosch123>I guess Eddi wants to flag the whole 32 random bits, i.e. the callback knows which bits belong to the suffix
13:47<+glx>depends on how the grf interprets bits
13:48<+glx>the only way would be to pass the uint32 to the callback
13:48<frosch123>yup, that's what I meant :)
13:48<batti5>News: OpenTTD 6.3 & All Nightly`s work on (K)ubuntu 8.10 Interpred Ibex
13:48<+glx>and let the grf do whatever it needs to allow or not the result
13:49<+glx>batti5: if it's a "linux" it's not surprising
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13:49<frosch123>maybe a generic callback for feature 08 ...
13:50<+glx>the problem will be the possible varaction 2
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>this callback should only affect town generation, after that, all town names are resolved like normal
13:51<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: yes :)
13:52<frosch123>[19:52] <glx> the problem will be the possible varaction 2 <- because ...
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13:54<+glx>lot of things to add :)
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13:54<frosch123>I thought Eddi was volunteering
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13:55<Eddi|zuHause>that'd be a little much ;)
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know a thing about how to add newgrf callbacks
13:56<+glx>adding a callback is not the hardest part ;)
13:56<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: take a look at newgrf_generic.cpp, take NewGenericResolver and duplicate it with its own GetVariable() function
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, it has to be designed properly to be useful and generic enough
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>and the resulting newgrf code shouldn't be too complicated, or people won't use it
13:57<+glx>the newgrf code will be the same as other callbacks
13:58<frosch123>[19:59] <Eddi|zuHause> and the resulting newgrf code shouldn't be too complicated, or people won't use it <- when you start like that, everything would be too complicated :)
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it wouldn't be good if the newgrf coder has to duplicate the town name part structure for calculating the callback result
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13:59<+glx>it can just check the bits used to determine an exact suffix he wants to prevent
14:00<+glx>but for complex name generator it can be fun :)
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>well, a possible extension to that callback would be to return a replacement suffix to use (i.e. alter the bits)
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>can callbacks return 32 bit?
14:02<DaleStan>the only way would be to pass the uint32 to the callback <-- This would require exposing which bit values correspond to which nameparts. Is that known to be the same in Patch and Open?
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14:03<DaleStan>Eddi|zuHause: With difficulty, yes. But if the CB changes the name, then you have to go back and re-run all the name-validity checking.
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>of course, that one is obvious ;=
14:05<A_Person>oops, I updated my openttd while the game was open :/
14:05<DaleStan>Or do the callback before TTD's name-validity code, which would probably make more sense.
14:05<frosch123>[20:04] <DaleStan> the only way would be to pass the uint32 to the callback <-- This would require exposing which bit values correspond to which nameparts. Is that known to be the same in Patch and Open? <- we are taking about the 32 random bits which are used in ActionF
14:06<frosch123>and the callback could only apply to name styles from the same grf
14:07<+glx>as this 32 bits value is the one stored as townname
14:07<DaleStan>Yeah. Given three parts, each with probability 01, selected by two bits, what values of those two bits correspond to which part?
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14:07<DaleStan>And which part actually has a 50% chance of appearing.
14:07<DaleStan>None of that is currently documented.
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>well, in my imagination it could work like this, assume we have an action F with the following parts: (taken from the action F page):
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>03 "Alpha" 00 01 "Beta" 00
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14:08<Eddi|zuHause>there could be an extension that for each name an action 2 id is given
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>03 "Alpha" 00 <action 2 id 1> 01 "Beta" 00 <action 2 id 2>
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>so when the town name generator generates a town name with the part "Alpha", the corresponding action 2 is called, and this can call other functions that check for validity
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14:09<Eddi|zuHause>and if that callback result is negative, the whole number is flagged as invalid
14:10<frosch123>[20:09] <DaleStan> None of that is currently documented. <- that does not mean it is not deterministic, and I consider it the fault of the grf author, when they do not sum up to a power of two
14:11<DaleStan>Even if it is deterministic, is it deterministic in the same way in both Patch and Open?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>does it have to be?
14:12<frosch123>don't know, but it is deterministic between patch and grf2html, and open looks similiar. glx should know :)
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14:13<joey_>Hey
14:13<frosch123>However adding a "the probabilities need to sum up to a power of two" to the callback would be the easiest solution
14:13<joey_>I have a strange behavior of trains in 0.6.3.. they are interpreting a standard signal as a semaphore
14:14<joey_>if someone has time, he might want to join my Server (DJGummikuh's Playhouse) and tell me why my trains behave that way please?
14:14-!-joey_ is now known as DJGummikuh
14:14<DaleStan>Yes. It does. Else NFO coders would have to use two different action 2 chains. Even if the chain is called after every choice, there might be a condition where the NFO has to know about the existence of two or more parts before it can determine validity.
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>DJGummikuh: screenshot?
14:15<DJGummikuh>a screenshot of a pathfinding behavior? hard to get
14:15<A_Person>Hmm, is it possible to create a scenario beginning with 2048?
14:16<DJGummikuh>Eddi if you have a minute it would make infinetly more sens if you would join and see for yourself
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>i have no 0.6.3
14:16<DJGummikuh>mmh
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>it would take significantly more than a minute
14:16<DJGummikuh>hm ok
14:17<DJGummikuh>just to get sure... ctrl+click once on a signal makes it a "track" signal, clicking twice makes it a semaphore, right?
14:17<DJGummikuh>err wrong
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14:17<A_Person>Oh no! OpenTTD gave me a non-english GUI!
14:17<DJGummikuh>meh I lack the english expressions of these signlas
14:18<DJGummikuh>(I lack the german expressions partly, too >.<)
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>DJGummikuh: do you mean pre- exit- and combo signals?
14:19-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
14:19<DJGummikuh>ah ok yes.. click once should make exit, right?
14:19<frosch123>normal -> pre -> exit -> combo -> normal -> ...
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>no, once is pre-, twice is exit
14:19<DJGummikuh>oops
14:20-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>and a screenshot would have totally shown us your wrong signalling :p
14:20<frosch123>pre = yellow horizontal, exit = white vertical, combo = something yellow-whitish
14:21<DJGummikuh>ok just to get sure.. I put a pre before a station and an exit right before every track of that station, right?
14:22<frosch123>pre before the junction, exit between junction and station
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>and when you get to play nightly/0.7, you have to forget all of that :p
14:24<DJGummikuh>why?
14:24<DJGummikuh>I have latest SVN but I have no built-env on my windows laptop so I can't play the client here :)
14:25<@petern>PBS :D
14:25<DJGummikuh>PBS?
14:26<frosch123>DJGummikuh: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/YAPP
14:29<A_Person>Hey if I scroll plane speed factor to 1/1 the planes go 4 times faster than with the deafult 1/4 right?
14:29<frosch123>yup
14:30<A_Person>hmm, max station spread can get pretty high, yet I haven't found writings of even 16 size station management
14:32<A_Person>hmm, manual doesn't explain "stations-allow more realistically sized catchment areas"
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Cottbus%20Transport,%2021.%20Okt%201925.png <- that's 16 if i didn't miscount
14:32<frosch123>A_Person: it is more like "differently sized" catchment areas
14:33<A_Person>yeah, I mean, I'd have to experiment to find what the difference is, heh
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>A_Person: makes bus stations smaller and airports bigger
14:33<A_Person>hmm, k
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>you can see the catchment area when choosing the option when building the station
14:33<frosch123>Turn it on, and enable "show catchment area" when building stations
14:34<A_Person>yeah, I remember that one
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14:36<A_Person>crap, game ends just three years after the last new vehicle?
14:36<frosch123>it does not end, it just takes highscore
14:36<A_Person>oh, cool
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>i never ever reached year 2050
14:37<A_Person>I want to experiment with scenarios starting in late years
14:37<+glx><frosch123> don't know, but it is deterministic between patch and grf2html, and open looks similiar. glx should know :) <-- IIRC I coded it like in ttdpatch
14:38<A_Person>apparently the old game only allowed making scenarios as late as 2000 :C
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14:38<Eddi|zuHause>i like the early years much more
14:38<A_Person>I want to test something with the superfast vehicles
14:38<A_Person>I want to fiddle with my two town, two railstation two airport scheme again
14:39<A_Person>was impossible to carry the capacity with old trains last time I tried
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, i've done some modification to passenger generation...
14:42<A_Person>I was focusing the railway more for the goods, it has very little initial passenger catchment
14:43<A_Person>one of each land industry total split between the two towns/stations, their entire throughput serviced by the two stations, with production cranked to max, seems like an impossible scenario kinda
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>i think two towns is a stupid game
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>i want 3000 small towns, and a real network
14:44<A_Person>I'm not much of a regular gamer either
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>optimised for connectivity
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>not throughput
14:44<A_Person>chaos doesn't really entertainm me :/
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>hypnotizing doubletracks flowing through the countryside entertain me
14:46<A_Person>I even made the map with just that one train line in mind, well and airport lots, heh, one long elongated corridor of a map :P
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Sep%201927.png <- for example like this
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14:48<A_Person>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Advanced_signalling_examples#Optimal_pre-signalled_station
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2017.%20Okt%201981.png <- or like this
14:48<A_Person>I tried solving my experiment with something like that
14:48<A_Person>only with 16 station lanes
14:48-!-Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-96-107.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
14:48<A_Person>couldn't manage the train flow properly
14:49<A_Person>You have a big loop there! you could've built it straight! :P
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>the entire point of the line is that it is NOT straight, because that would have made it very steep
14:52<A_Person>hmm, guess it makes sense
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14:55<A_Person>a coal mine, farm, refinery, sawmill and a steel mill at one station. A power station, oil well, iron ore mine, forest and factory at the other
14:56<A_Person>crank it to max and there's so much cargo to haul the earth will break
14:56<fjb>But doesn't it get boring after a few game years?
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i like PBI, the production limits force you to actually connect multiple factories and steel mills to your network
14:57<A_Person>it didn't cause I couldn't make the flow work fjb, heh
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>and that's also the reason why i need bloody damn shunting!
14:58<A_Person>if I ever manage to get it to work I'll have to ditch it of course, but when I tried I couldn't, I'm going to try again today, but the map needs editing for the new airport, and changing the rail corridor geometry a bit, I put stupid bends into the station entry that slowed trains down
15:00<fjb>Ok, solving that may be a problem. Kind of optimization problem.
15:00<A_Person>And that was pretty much the meaning of my challenge I guess
15:00<A_Person>want to see if the game's theoretical max is possible
15:01<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: The problem with PBI stockpiling is that I regularly overflow the only left steel mill with my two 1885 steam engine trains.
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, the closing of unserved industries must be dealt with differently, somehow
15:02<fjb>A_Person: Maybe you should try the new YAPP signals in the current nightly builds.
15:02<A_Person>Well, I just installed the current version, last time I played I had 0.4.1!
15:03<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: And the steel mill gets overflowed by less than the load of one train with two steam egines hauling up a hill.
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>what? my steel mills take somethin like 1000 items, how do you put that mass into one train?
15:04<fjb>The new signals greatly enhance the throughput of switchyards.
15:04<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: your old alpine game, still playing that?
15:05<A_Person>I guess you're right, I'll give it a try after I've had my taste of the changes since my last encounter
15:05<A_Person>a taste*
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: no, it was kinda stuck with an old yapp v3 build, and i never managed to get it loadable in a newer version
15:05<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Coal limit is about 750 tons.
15:05<Ammler>snow-in-temperate is so nice.
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: my observation is that these limits vary from industry to industry
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>but i might be mistaken in that
15:06<A_Person>I've been thinking all evening that beside having snow in tmeperate it would be nice to have a crazy mics of industries in all 3 climates :D
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i love snow
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>if you want crazy, take ECS
15:07<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Then I went unlucky with the only left steel mill. It's iron ore limit is higher, but it consumes as much coal as iron ore.
15:07<Ammler>well, in that case ECS is more "stable"
15:08<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: I tried ECS, there things that I like and things that I dislike with ECS. But starting a game in 1831 would had left hardly any industry on the map to play with.
15:08<Ammler>you do not need to fund new primary industries all the time like with PBI
15:08<Ammler>(or prospect)
15:09<fjb>Yes, they are dying to fast in ECS. And you earn not that much money starting that early.
15:09<Ammler>ECS has some unttdish graphics, else it is fine (well, don't use all vectors at once)
15:10<Ammler>but not if you service them...
15:11<fjb>All vectors at once is the real fun. But many graphics could be better, more TTD like hand drawn. I like the coal mine and the factory. But I dislike the rendered ones.
15:11-!-KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738c844.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
15:12<fjb>I had ECS industries die even when serviced, but it is hard to always get a rating above 80% in early game years.
15:12<Ammler>didn't that change with newest versions?
15:13<fjb>Didn't try beta 5 yet.
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't touched ECS in a while, since it was unplayable on a big map
15:13<fjb>I'm currently playing my 1831 PBI game.
15:14<@petern>1831 :o
15:14<fjb>Yeah, starting earlier didn't work. Horse carriages are just too slow to get enough money.
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>payment rates need to adapt through the years
15:16<fjb>Now it is 1905 and I'm having 19 trains, 73 horse carriages and two steam boats.
15:17<frosch123>19 trains after 74 gameyears? isn't that kind of boring?
15:17<fjb>Longest train is my unhappy 968 tons coal train.
15:17-!-Joni- [~Joni-@dsl-vsabrasgw1-fe64fb00-193.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd
15:17<A_Person>I'll rob you of some more of your time, what's ECS and PBI
15:18<fjb>Not that boring. Much thinking to get money with slow trains and horses.
15:18<fjb>STOP, time police speaking.
15:19<A_Person>Haha, wha?
15:19<fjb>A_Person: That are industry sets.
15:19<A_Person>ah
15:19<A_Person>I was just trying to sound silly
15:19<fjb>Me too.
15:19<yorick>hm, interesting: 175 servers online...67 of which use 0.6.2, 56 0.6.3, 17 are still 0.5.3, 12 are 0.6.0, 9 are 0.6.1, most used mapsize is 512x512, most language specific servers are german, followed by english and russian...140 servers are running a random map, there are 106 clients on those, and 140 total
15:20<fjb>We should interconnect the servers. :-)
15:22<fjb>Another problem with slow vehicles is that they are losing reliability too fast. the hardly reach the next depot in time.
15:22<yorick>http://paste.openttd.org/124074 <-- full log :)
15:22*A_Person curses
15:22<A_Person>I have to redo most of the relevant pices of map :/
15:23<A_Person>airport catchment will go over the edge
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%202.%20Okt%201940.png
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>why is that a problem?
15:24<A_Person>Nice map there
15:25<A_Person>because I want the 10 wide catchment not to be wasted in my pre-planned map?
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>that was one game with the old "new" passenger destinations patch
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>and my first game with PBI
15:26<A_Person>hmm, I can't remember if ships going opposite directions through the same field obstruct eachother
15:26<Ammler>my first cargodest game was with ECS :-)
15:27<fjb>Ammler: My also. But it doesn't matter that much.
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15:28<fjb>A_Person: They will pass through each other like ghost ships.
15:29<A_Person>hmm, neat
15:30<fjb>I dislike that feature a bit.
15:32<A_Person>I was just wondering how much room I'll need between continent edge and map border
15:32<A_Person>with that, one will do!
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15:34<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%207.%20Maer%201930-2.png
15:34<broli>where im suposed to put the gm folder in linux? im building openttd from source, but cant hear music, and im trying to find why.
15:34<broli>i cant find any other missing library on the configure script
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>gm folder should get next to the data folder
15:34<A_Person>it's in the main install directory in win...
15:35<A_Person>along with data and everything else
15:35<broli>then my gm folder got corrupted, or im building it wrong
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>what's in the gm folder?
15:36<broli>givme a sec, pastebin is loading
15:36<broli>http://rafb.net/p/ZdHuta24.html
15:37<broli>http://rafb.net/p/JGtbYe12.html
15:37<broli>sorry, the frist one got the color codes in it, readm the second one
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>good, next step: can you play the files with an external midi player? (timidity for example)?
15:38<broli>let me try
15:40<broli>i didint had timidity++, i only had the libs. could have been that?
15:40<broli>well, im gona find out in 5 mins when yum finishs
15:46<fjb>Hm, cooperative multitasking and real time applications don't get together that well.. :-(
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15:54<broli>ok, i installed timidity, and i am able to hear the gm in the gm folder.
15:54<broli>but not on ttd
15:54<broli>reconfigured with the option --with-midi=timidity, but still no luck
15:54<broli>should i use the full path ?
15:55<yorick>what does it say?
15:55<broli>where? i run openttd from console, and i dont see any error
15:55<broli>the player in game shows a tune, but i cant hear anything
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>you can increase the debug level for music
15:57<broli>you should asume i dont know how and go ahead and tell me
15:58<yorick>I mean the configure script
15:58<yorick>also, try putting the volume higher
15:58<broli>http://rafb.net/p/4cnMzn77.html
15:58<broli>yorick the volume is as high as it goes
15:59<yorick>on the openttd soundplayer?
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>go to the ingame console (key left of 1), and type debug_level
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16:00<broli>which one is sound?
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>which ones are there?
16:02<broli>i just send all to 10
16:02<broli>still no error. i can hear trains and horns, but not music
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>that'll hardly be helpful :p
16:03<broli>:P
16:04<broli>i get in game and try to play a song, or change and no message appears
16:04<yorick>try doing developer 2
16:04<yorick>on that console
16:05<broli>nothing
16:06<broli>im totally lost
16:06<yorick>ok...try starting openttd using openttd -d10
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16:07<Eddi|zuHause>try starting openttd with the option -d driver=3
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: that output will be totally useless
16:07<yorick>not entirely
16:08<yorick>hehe
16:08<yorick>just need a good grep
16:09<broli>yeah
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16:12<broli>well, the only thing i can ee, is that sound is correctly initialized
16:13<broli>http://rafb.net/p/QT43dh24.html <-- ./openttd -d10 > /tmp/openttd.log 2>&1
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>music is the relevant part, not sound
16:13<broli>right
16:14<broli>only occurrence "dbg: [driver] Successfully probed music driver 'libtimidity'
16:14<+glx>sdl may block other sound apps
16:15<+glx>there's an SDL_something system variable to define
16:16<broli>i tried runing timidity while the game was running and i heard both sounds
16:16<broli>and runing the game while timidity was playing and also worked
16:21<A_Person>Hmm, the game wiki could list catchment areas for other stations like it does for airports
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16:30<fjb>A_Person: Just start the gane an look at the cachement area preview.
16:32-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
16:32<broli>Your 'sample.cat' file is corrupted or missing! <-- can this be my problem with music?
16:35<Sacro|Laptop>broli: ues
16:35<Sacro|Laptop>*yes
16:36<broli>-.-' i feel a little idiot now
16:37<broli>i dont know where im gona get the game now
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16:52<Ammler>oh noes
16:53<A_Person>Woot, I CAN make a nearly flawless street grid around a mega-airport
16:53<Ammler>yet another "yet another..." name: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=39925
16:53<Ammler>but nice rails
16:53<A_Person>only two 3*3 cells
16:55<broli>ok. i fixed the sample cat problem, but still i dont get any music
16:57<A_Person>I wonder if anyone has determined which cities can have denser population, ones limited to 2*2 cells, or with some proportion of 3*3
16:58<broli>is there any list of files i need fomr the original game?
16:58<A_Person>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Installation_FAQ#What_files_do_I_need_from_TTD.3F
16:59<broli>thanks
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17:02<@Rubidium>Ammler: that set should add a pirate ship
17:03<DJGummikuh>why are there so many morons playing openttd?
17:03<Ammler>:-)
17:04<DJGummikuh>I just had some prick that called himself "the flying dutchman" who - before he left - bought exclusive transport rights in every city I have stations in
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>you've got two words too much there
17:04<murray>quality entertainment attracts morons and leeches :p
17:04<DJGummikuh>long story short i rcon-resetted his company but this is really a pita
17:05<@Rubidium>DJGummikuh: because TTDP is too complex to install for morons
17:05<DJGummikuh>he collappsed my whole train system because they were waiting for cargo which they didn't get
17:05<@Rubidium>and simutrans is too complex to play for morons
17:06<A_Person>Hehe
17:06<Ammler>Rubidium: if you are here, was there a reason, you do not copy player_name to client_name?
17:06<Ammler>(all join as "Player" now
17:08<@Rubidium>there's no player_name
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>in my .cfg, there is
17:11<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: he is joking about ant that was also the answer, no reason. :-)
17:11<broli>im about to pull my hair one by one
17:12<dih>r14458: openttd: /home/fairplay/openttd/src/station_cmd.cpp:567: void UpdateStationAcceptance(Station*, bool): Assertion `(rect.right >= rect.left) == !st->rect.IsEmpty()' failed.
17:12<dih>you want a savegame with that?
17:13<@Rubidium>clean trunk?
17:13<dih>Rubidium, my autonightly - clean trunk
17:13<@Rubidium>then make a bugreport
17:13<dih>will do
17:13<@Rubidium>as frosch's already gone
17:13<broli>i completly purged my folder. recompiled, copied the files from TTDX, and still no music
17:14<@Rubidium>did you put them in the gm folder, where the gm folder is in the same folder as the openttd binary?
17:15<@Rubidium>Ammler: oh... you mean it that way... then I guess there was no reason except not noticing that it might've been "converted"
17:15<@Rubidium>though that adds all kinds of complexities and basically wasted memory
17:16<broli>Rubidium yes, http://rafb.net/p/khRclB25.html
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17:17<Ammler>if client_name="" then client_name=player_name ;-)
17:17<@Rubidium>Ammler: make a diff that isn't a hack
17:18<dih>hehe
17:18<@Rubidium>broli: might it be that the music is paused/stopped or the music level is 0?
17:18<dih>Ammler, what if player_name = "" too
17:18<@Rubidium>dih: NPE
17:18<dih>?
17:18<@Rubidium>nullpointerexception
17:19<@Rubidium>segfault
17:19<dih>ah
17:19<broli>Rubidium i start a gme, open the music player, and the volume is 100%, and i push the pay button and i dont hear the music
17:19<dih>shame, i was hoping to confuse Ammler :-P
17:19<@Rubidium>and it's not "racing" through the music?
17:19<Ammler>lol
17:19<@Rubidium>s/music/songs/
17:19<broli>Rubidium nope
17:19<Ammler>dih: I do not need to discuss it again with you :P
17:19<broli>Rubidium fixed that after i isntalled libtimidity and recompiled :P
17:20<@Rubidium>I think (or seem to remember that) libtimidity was never meant for unixy openttds
17:21<broli>the configure script asks for it,m and if i run openttd, it says it loads correctly
17:22<+tokai>last time i checked the libtimidity support was rather incomplete
17:22<+tokai>a year ago or so:)
17:22<@Rubidium>but whether the music is actually "passed" to libtimidity
17:22<broli>im thinking on just launching timidity on a temrinal and runing the game on top of it, it just works that way :P
17:22<+tokai>would be nice to have, IMHO
17:23<+tokai>i mean full libtimidity support that is
17:23<broli>i tried recompiling using an external midi player,using the full path, with arguments an all, but i didnt worked
17:25<@Rubidium>can't 'easily' test libtimidity here; Debian doesn't support libtimidity out of the box
17:26<@Rubidium>but then, I don't want timidity anyway because it sucks way too much CPU cycles
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17:29<+glx>IIRC libtimidity was added as part of PSP support
17:29<+glx>but never really tested
17:29<Ammler>heh, just tried, nice music :-)
17:30<broli>it used to work trough the 0.5.x
17:30<Ammler>omg, I feel back 10 years
17:30<+glx>it used timidity then
17:30<+glx>not libtimidity
17:30<broli>so, how i disable lib and enable the old bahvior?
17:30<+glx>you need timidity++
17:30<@Rubidium>openttd -m extmidi
17:30<broli>belh, i will just launch timidity oand the game by hand
17:31<+glx>extmidi does just that
17:34<@Rubidium>libtimidity is quite "stale" (4 years no new releases)
17:35<dih>Rubidium, i think it has to do with the commit by frosch
17:35<dih>@commit r14456
17:35<@DorpsGek>dih: Invalid arguments for _commit.
17:35<dih>@commit 14456
17:35<@DorpsGek>dih: Commit by frosch :: r14456 /trunk/src (station_cmd.cpp station_map.h) (2008-10-10 20:09:29 UTC)
17:35<@DorpsGek>dih: -Fix: Obiwan in catchment-area and station-spread of docks.
17:35<dih>the assert was added in that commit
17:36<dih>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2343
17:36<@Rubidium>dih: that's no news for me; he added it deliberately
17:37<@Rubidium>the assert that is, to test some "hypothesis"
17:37<dih>i have 2 saves attached to the ticket, one 28 mins before, one 8 mins before
17:37<@Rubidium>and it reproduces when you load it?
17:37<dih>the save 8mins before i reloaded on the server and it did not crash
17:37<dih>not yet
17:37<dih>i am talking to the guys on the server
17:37<@Rubidium>yay for useful bugreports...
17:38<dih>sorry
17:38<dih>just had the same assert 2 mins ago
17:40<@Rubidium>well, you should know that it's only useful to really make a bugreport when you can reproduce it
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17:41<dih>Rubidium, i am working on getting there ;-)
17:41<dih>anyway - you have 5 asserts in 6 lines of code
17:41<dih>where 4 are inside an if block
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17:43<dih>Rubidium, it's reproducable
17:43<dih>i will now get the steps
17:46<@SmatZ>good :)
17:46<dih>:-)
17:46<dih>besides - the assert is silly!
17:47<dih>the asserts after that one are ok - but that one is silly IMO
17:47<dih>but then MO is not always that good ;P
17:48<@Rubidium>why is it silly?
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17:49<dih>assert((rect.right >= rect.left) == !st->rect.IsEmpty());
17:50<dih>i read that if rect.right >= rect.left is true and we have an empty rect - crash
17:50<dih>then why have the asserts in the if block?
17:51<dih>nah - forget it
17:51<dih>too mutch vodka
17:51<dih>i think i have a save game that asserts after 5 mins of doing nothing
17:52<dih>1 min infact
17:53<@SmatZ>well
17:53<@SmatZ>the game in the report asserts after a while
17:54<@SmatZ>it asserts when new oil rig is built
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17:55<dih>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2343 <- updated
17:55<dih>new savegame
17:55<dih>assert after 1 minute
17:55<dih>;-)
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18:06<@Rubidium>hmmm.... libtimidity is only a "decoder"; it doesn't seem to actually play the music
18:12<broli>exactly
18:13<broli>is it normal that terraforming a path uniting 2 shores lines of a lake is actually more cheaper than doing the same until the middle of the lake?
18:15<@SmatZ>depends how many water tiles you modify
18:15<broli>less
18:15<broli>thats the ppoint
18:16<broli>30x2 path uniting 2 shore lines is cheaper than 15x2 path that ends mid water
18:17<@SmatZ>sorry I fail to understand your sentences
18:17<broli>yeah, sorry, my english is not that good
18:17<broli>i will make a screenshot and gimp iot
18:17<Nite_Owl>Terraforming water is more expensive but you can only raise it up
18:18<@SmatZ>but yeah, there is something wrong
18:18<@SmatZ>like, you modify only 3 half-water tiles
18:18<@SmatZ>and it costs the same as modifying 4 half-water tiles
18:19<A_Person>Do Coal Mines get depleted?
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>in some newgrf industry sets, yes
18:19<Nite_Owl>Not in the standard game
18:20<broli>where is teh pnd stored?
18:20<A_Person>Ah, but I presume oil wells do?
18:20<broli>alot
18:20<A_Person>At least I saw mention of it on some page today, forgot which
18:20<@SmatZ>A_Person: yes, in temperate, they do
18:21<@SmatZ>their production doesn't increase, and once they die
18:21<A_Person>K, thanks
18:22<A_Person>Hmm, the magic dynamite should help demolish depleted oil wells
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18:22<@SmatZ>a
18:22<@SmatZ>A_Person: they will disappear on their own
18:23<A_Person>Ah, never played to that
18:23<A_Person>I'm thinking if I should put two way coal hauling into my crazy two point scheme
18:23<@SmatZ>I think they will die faster when you are not servicing them... but I may be wrong
18:23<A_Person>coal from one station to the other's powerplant and vice versa
18:23<@SmatZ>:)
18:24<broli>ok, i think i got it.
18:25<broli>this http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08416/complete301.png is cheaper than this http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08416/half102.png
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18:27<broli>the "shorter" one costs something like 75% cheaper
18:27<broli>sorry, 25%cheaper
18:28<@SmatZ>broli: interesting
18:30<broli>yeah
18:30<broli>i did some math, it its actually 25%, by the cent
18:31<broli>i can give you the exact same save game if you need it, but im asuming it can be easily reproduced
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18:32<sulai>hey guys
18:33<sulai>I've a question about "make" when you execute it to compile openttd... if its return value is 1, does this *always* mean there are just compile errors?
18:33<sulai>I've a question about "make" when you execute it to compile openttd... if its return value is 1, does this *always* mean there are just compile WARNINGS?
18:34-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.186.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:34<Progman>"A status of
18:34<Progman> one will be returned if the -q flag was used and make determines that a target needs to be rebuilt"
18:34<+glx>it may mean it reconfigured too
18:36<@SmatZ>broli: ok, I had wrong assumptions... price for cleaning / leveling "half-water" tile is the same as for "full-water" tile
18:36<A_Person>If you fund or prospect new industries can you pick where they appear?
18:36<A_Person>like, as precisely as in the scenario editor
18:36<@SmatZ>A_Person: "Fund" -> you choose place ; "Prospect" -> random place
18:36<A_Person>ah
18:36<+glx>prospect may fail and cost
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18:37<A_Person>and you can fund any industry of the particulate climate, right?
18:37<sulai>Progman, glx: ok, so if make returns value 1 it still means you get a working openttd executable ?
18:37<+glx>depends on advanced settings
18:37<+glx>was for A_Person :)
18:37<A_Person>Ah
18:38<A_Person>Well, thanks for the info, I'm sure to find out in game
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>sulai: command line return values are inverse logic, 0 means "everything ok", the other values are increasing seriousness levels of errors
18:40<sulai>just read the man page, thank you =)
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18:41<sulai>Eddi, I know, I just was curious if make returns 1 if everything is *almost* ok
18:42<A_Person>I wonder if having just one square of catchment overlap an industry works, I think I remember it didn'õt
18:43<Nite_Owl>Primary yes - secondary industries need a specific tile covered
18:44<A_Person>Ah, yes, I remember I had to figure out those by trial and error
18:45<A_Person>(building map for specific station size)
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18:47<+glx>just check the accepted/produced stuff when you build a station
18:47<+glx>it's displayed
18:47<A_Person>Yeah, I just have to adjust the map when the stuff didn't line up as required
18:48<A_Person>doesn't*
18:49<A_Person>Oh, a silly idea for the devs: highlighting the specific square in the placement tool, hehe
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19:15<broli>i think i found out whats the problem
19:15<broli>i hand enough money, to even build one tile
19:16<broli>so when i tried to do the full path, it tried to rise one tile on the far side
19:16<broli>when i tried to stop mid water, it ttried to raise a tile on the close said
19:16<broli>side*
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19:30<fjb>Nothing to be done for this platform... do people know nothing beside Linus anymore?
19:30<fjb>Linux
19:42<@SmatZ>yes
19:43<ln>whattareyoutalkingabout?
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19:44<@Rubidium>it's more about: do I want to use anything besides Linux
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19:47<fjb>Ofcourse I do.
19:48<thingwath>why?
19:50<fjb>Linux has some raw edges that disturb me. Some things are done better in other systems.
19:52*Rubidium has the tendency to wreck MacOS and dislikes the gazillion autoupdaters needed to keep a Windows system up-to-date
19:52<thingwath>everything has some raw edges :)
19:52<thingwath>i prefer to deal with a single set of them
19:53<fjb>Rubidium: There is more out there than just Linux, MacOS and Windows...
19:53<@Rubidium>true
19:53<@SmatZ>fjb: yeah, like MorphOS :)
19:53<fjb>thingwath: Some raw edges disturb me more than others.
19:53<@Rubidium>morphos: doesn't run on my architecture
19:53<@Rubidium>(open)solaris: fails to install properly
19:54<ln>i'd be happy if i didn't need to close firefox or other apps on linux in order to be able to hear sounds from mplayer.
19:54<@Rubidium>novell: isn't quite useful for workstation/development
19:55<thingwath>ln: two days ago, i was exactly that happy, now, I'm not, again :)
19:55<@Rubidium>neither is DOS
19:55<@Rubidium>OS/2 failed to install to
19:56<@Rubidium>and that's about all "mainstream" OSes
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19:57<@Rubidium>okay, there's also BSD
19:57<fjb>OS/" mainstream? You hardly find anybody remembering that OS today.
19:57<fjb>BSD is way more mainstream than OS/2
19:58<@Rubidium>depends on your measurement characteristics ;)
19:58<thingwath>i "love" IRIX
19:59<thingwath>it makes me feeling great about linux, even in times like this, when I can't get the #$% pulseaudio working
20:00<fjb>Rubidium: Do deployed systems count as a measurement?
20:01<@Rubidium>I think it'll amaze you how often OS/2 is still used
20:01<thingwath>i've never seen it, for example :)
20:01<@Rubidium>thingwath: thinks of windows 3.x
20:02<thingwath>i had windows 3.11 fifteen years ago ;)
20:02<@Rubidium>fjb: OS/2 is for example used in many ATMs
20:03<ln>fjb: I've seen OS/2 used on desktop in my university's administration in 2005, and I've bought train tickets in italy from a vending machine running OS/2 in 2006.
20:03<fjb>BSD is used on many servers and embedded devices.
20:03<@Rubidium>so in effect: it's unmeasurable
20:03<fjb>OS/2 is still out there but not as widly used as it once was.
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>windows 3.x ran on OS/2 :p
20:06<@Rubidium>using "classified" statistics I'd say that there are about 1200 times more Windows installations than OS/2 installations
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20:07<thingwath>but people won't play openttd on them
20:08<@Rubidium>thingwath: really?
20:08<thingwath>on OS/2, i mean
20:09<Wolf01>'night
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20:09<@Rubidium>thingwath: the stats I'm talking about are the download statistics for different OSes of OpenTTD
20:09<ln>thingwath: why not?
20:09<@Rubidium>and yes, the OS/2 binaries are really downloaded regularly
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20:10<thingwath>is it usable on a reasonably new hardware?
20:12<@Rubidium>depends on your definition of usable
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20:12<@Rubidium>if you mean runs in VMWare server, then yes, otherwise no
20:13<ln>big hard disks cause trouble with installation, but solvable somehow.
20:13<thingwath>a game without hundreds of trains would be very, very sad :o)
20:13<ln>big as in larger than 4 GB.
20:13<thingwath>um
20:13<thingwath>i would not call that "big" :)
20:13<ln>but "huge"?
20:14<thingwath>don't know
20:15<thingwath>it was not enough for me six years ago
20:15<ln>also the lack of support for newer network cards can be a problem.
20:15<ln>but 10 years ago, who had an ethernet card anyway?
20:15<thingwath>what "newer" :)
20:15<ln>(i did, but that's beside the point)
20:15<Brianetta>My games usually have only a few tens of trains at most
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20:19<thingwath>well, i mostly use only trains and few buses
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>i like big maps, so i tend to have more trains, but they are very spread out
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>and i love trams ;)
20:23<thingwath>i am not aware of any really good tram set :/
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>what i have seen of the GermanRV set was really good
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>only the trucks are still missing
20:24<thingwath>i need czech trams :)
20:25<@SmatZ>thingwath: http://forum.tycoonez.com/viewtopic.php?p=44670#44670 if this helps you :)
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>there is also the serbian tram set
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>czech trams run all around the (eastern) world
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>so you'll find some in many sets
20:26<thingwath>SmatZ: oh, lovely, i didn't know about new version :)
20:26<@SmatZ>:)
20:26*fjb likes horses.
20:28<thingwath>but still no KT8 :/
20:31<thingwath>this is so depressing.
20:31<@SmatZ>:(
20:32<thingwath>i have to buy RT6 instead, which is... strange :)
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20:52<A_Person>I think these articles remain unclear about what happens to a long train that has to make two turns in the same direction with a larger gap than 12 http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Corners http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Game_mechanics#Vehicle_speeds
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20:56<@SmatZ>A_Person: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Game_mechanics#Vehicle_speeds I think it is explained there
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20:57<A_Person>From what is given I can only guess that similarily to what's shown the re is a limit with longer gaps for trains that are long enough, but I'm just not entirely sure
20:59<@SmatZ>long train will never go > 231/346/461 kph
20:59<@SmatZ>in a curve that is shorter than train
20:59<A_Person>k makes sense
21:02*A_Person places a tiny corner of ore mine and waits for the results
21:02<@SmatZ>but there is another problem
21:02<A_Person>Speed?
21:03<@SmatZ>"Tiles between double bend" should be "Wagons ..."
21:03<@SmatZ>for shorter wagons, you can have shorter curves
21:03<A_Person>oh, heh
21:03<A_Person>hmm, didn't know vagon lenght varied
21:03<A_Person>I'm limited to 16 tile trains anyway
21:04<@SmatZ>:)
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21:04<@SmatZ>some GRF sets have shorter wagons
21:04<A_Person>ah
21:04<@SmatZ>and longer, using a 'hack' (it is 2 wagons, but only first has a sprite)
21:04*A_Person has expanded his mad map to replace his 7*16 stations with 16^2
21:04<@SmatZ>:(
21:04<@SmatZ>oops
21:04<@SmatZ>:) I mean
21:05<A_Person>:P
21:05<A_Person>I'm thinking replacing 1 maxed forest with 4, and the same for farms is going to kill the line
21:06<A_Person>but I've equipped myself with knowledge abou turn tightness, and this time around my line should be faster in that regard
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21:09*A_Person ponders the madness of using two iron ore mines instead of two
21:10<@SmatZ>"two iron ore mines instead of two" ?
21:10<A_Person>per one station
21:11<A_Person>I'm building a map for my experiment scenario, two point railway with th stations servicing maxed out industries, a mix of them
21:11<A_Person>mixed goods, miced train speeds, high volume, it's a mad puzzle to make work
21:12<A_Person>well, mixed in the sense of traffic on the line, heavyer trains obstruct slower ones
21:13<@SmatZ>A_Person: fixed wiki...
21:14<A_Person>Ah, heh, well thanks
21:14<@SmatZ>:-)
21:22<A_Person>8 thousand tonnes of wood through one station, can he do it!
21:44<broli>is there a way to know the state of a signal that is not facing you?
21:45<A_Person>it's glow should show a bit on the back side
21:45<A_Person>like on the edge
21:46<A_Person>oh, hmm, not when it's pointing straight north
21:46<broli>yeah
21:47<broli>with the old ones you can see it go up or down
21:47<broli>but i hate the old ones
21:47<A_Person>semaphores you mean?
21:49<broli>the pole with a small pole pointing up and down
21:49<A_Person>Yeah, those were called semaphores I think
21:50<broli>not native english speaker
21:51<A_Person>Neither am I, I just remember silly stuff
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22:34<A_Person>I wonder if two maximum output farms equal roughly four forests
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23:00<stoorty>hey
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23:16<stoorty>is there a bug in the newest nightly?
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23:32<stoorty>my game crashes when an oilrig is built :s
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23:38<A_Person>Crap I built the wrong kind of railway station, I had to build a monorail station, and I built a regular onez :/
---Logclosed Sun Oct 12 00:00:48 2008