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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-10-23

---Logopened Thu Oct 23 00:00:15 2008
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03:12-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
03:14<dih>say i run a dedicated server
03:14<dih>no - let me start differently
03:15<dih>when i start openttd (graphically)
03:15<dih>change a setting and run saveconfig on the console
03:15<dih>changes are written to the config file as expected
03:16<dih>however, changing a setting in a running game and deciding one would like to save that, and one runs saveconfig on the consoel, it does not save the settings from the game
03:16<dih>esp on a dedicated server this is a bain up the rear end
03:17<dih>when someone changes a setting on the dedicated server console and would like to save that to the file
03:17<dih>running saveconfig has absolutely no effect
03:25<dih>good morning Celestar
03:26<@petern>afaik, saveconfig just causes the start up config to be saved, it does not cause the running config to be copied to the start up config, and then saved
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03:27<@petern>(heh, cisco terminology, but it works)
03:29<dih>petern: that would mean that if i am in the main menu und run patch max_trains 0 and then saveconfig that the config file would still hold 500
03:29<dih>or das the change have an influence on the 'startup config'?
03:30<dih>eitherway, esp. on a dedicated server it would be of help if saveconfig saved the config of the running game
03:31<dih>or if it was triggered with a flag to the console command saveconfig
03:33<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14512 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_rail.cpp ai_rail.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Fix (r14511): wrong args passed to AIObject::DoCommand() and don't forget to run (Yexo)
03:34*Celestar burps
03:36*dih pats Celestar on the back
03:37<@Celestar>note to self: copying 350GB onto a 120GB partition is stupid
03:37<dih>you ninkompoop
03:38<dih>petern: e.g. i ban someone and need to restart the server, the ban is gone!
03:40<dih>very not what someone wants :-P
03:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14513 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
03:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-22 17:26:32
03:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: czech - 6 fixed by Hadez (6)
03:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: indonesian - 121 fixed by dnaftali (120), Admin (1)
03:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changed by lorenzodv (1)
03:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: korean - 15 changed by dlunch (15)
03:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: latvian - 20 fixed by v3rb0 (20)
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03:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14514 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
03:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Codechange: use 'size' instead of 'length' for querystring and textbuf, explicitly say it includes the terminating zero
03:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix: one couldn't rename things with too long default/automatic name
03:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix: buffer overflow in console when too long (1024 bytes) command was entered
03:45<dih>ERROR: Invalid client
03:45<dih>it should add the ip to the banlist!
03:45<dih>it only works when the client is actually in the game?
03:46<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14515 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix (r7759): iconv is included in glibc-2.1 and higher, so we don't need to link to a most likely non-existing libiconv in those situations.
03:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14516 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix: determine the default text direction based on the language file instead of hardcoding one.
03:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14517 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Feature: arrow key scrolling in the server list (Roujin)
03:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14518 /trunk/src/ (os2.cpp win32.cpp): -Fix (r14514): forgot win32 and OS/2 files (glx)
03:50<dih>Rubidium: r14516 <- NICE
03:52<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14519 /trunk/ -Fix [FS#2376]: do not use the short hash form for getting a specific mercurial/git revision as those can collide quite easily causing reversion detection to fail (PhilSophus)
03:52<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14520 /branches/noai/ (23 files in 6 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14497:14519
03:53<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14521 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2378]: fast trains could continue to move after a crash
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03:57<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14522 /trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Fix: apply r14519 to determineversion.vbs. Also properly set 'modified' for hg and git (was always 1).
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04:03<dih>hello planetmaker
04:03<@Celestar>hey planetmaker
04:03<@Celestar>how are the planets?
04:04<planetmaker>they're wandering their realms - as they've done fore eons and as they'll do fore eons once even the age of men is long past :P
04:04<planetmaker>heya dih, heya Celestar :)
04:05<planetmaker>actually... weather makes them elude me :)
04:06<@Celestar>I'd like to do some astrophysics now :(
04:13<eMJay>quick question, why is there no classes in the ottd code?
04:14<eMJay>i should say, why /are/ there no classes...
04:14<@petern>i should say, what code are you looking at?
04:14<eMJay>the trunk code...
04:14<@petern>clearly not
04:14<eMJay>looks like all structs to me
04:15<@petern>structs and classes. is that a problem?
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04:16<eMJay>you'll have to forgive me, I'm reasonably new to C++ (I've learned and used mainly Java and C#) but aren't classes typically easier to understand?
04:17<@petern>in c++, structs and classes are the same
04:18<@petern>structs default to public
04:18<eMJay>structs just don't have methods, correct?
04:19<@Celestar>eMJay: nope
04:19<@petern>as in, not correct ;)
04:19<@Celestar>eMJay: diffence between structs and classes is that classes default to private and structs default to public
04:20<eMJay>ok cool
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04:20<dih>why do i not find any console in the openttd code?
04:21<@Rubidium>I wonder why you want to make a list of all classes?
04:21<dih>i find IConsole, but that is not the same is it?
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04:25<@Celestar>dih: ?
04:25<@Celestar>Rubidium: doxygen will provide already a lot of classes
04:26<@Rubidium>Celestar: that's why I'm wondering why eMJay wants to make a list of classes (see wiki)
04:26<@petern>presumably to try to understand stuff
04:27<@Rubidium>Celestar: you should sync cargodest (people having problems with issues already fixed in trunk)
04:29<@petern>hmm, only one conflict in railtypes
04:29<@petern>last synced in september
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04:39<@Celestar>Rubidium: ok
04:40<eMJay>I'm using the wiki as a sortof scribbling pad to understand the structure of the code
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04:40<eMJay>I want to have a go at putting together a FIFO signals patch, but not really sure where to begin
04:41<@Celestar>I've somehow misplaced the URL I need to push to :P
04:42<planetmaker>[10:40] <eMJay> I want to have a go at putting together a FIFO signals patch, but not really sure where to begin <--- why yet another kind of signals?
04:44<eMJay>not another kind of signal, a modification to the current kind
04:45<eMJay>FS #2158 is one that I opened, but there are others in a similar vein
04:45<@Celestar>Rubidium: done
04:45<eMJay>basically, at an intersection with many entrances, the train that was waiting the longest should be the one to proceed first when the signal goes green
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04:49<blathijs>eMJay: didn't that happen already before? I seem to remember a waiting time being kept per train, but I'm not so sure
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04:50<eMJay>I don't beleive it does, r14508 doesn't...
04:51<dih>10:25 <@Celestar> dih: ? <- i was mocking eMJay
04:53<dih>blathijs: that's with pbs
04:55<@petern>blathijs: the waiting time was for turning around, not priority
04:56<dih>ah - and that
04:56<dih>eMJay: you can create a FIFO system with using logic gates :-D
04:57<eMJay>well, yes.
04:58<eMJay>but technically, you could build almost anything with logic gates
04:58<@Celestar>what the HELL is wrong with my server
04:58<@Celestar>Device: rrqm/s wrqm/s r/s w/s rsec/s wsec/s rkB/s wkB/s avgrq-sz avgqu-sz await svctm %util
04:58<@Celestar>sda 0.40 0.00 128.80 121.40 2531.20 1190.00 1265.60 595.00 14.87 7.41 34.80 4.00 100.00
04:58<blathijs>petern: Ah, you're right
04:58<@Celestar>dih: it's not funny
04:58<dih>sure it's not
04:59<Gekz>it needs an rm -rf /
04:59<Gekz>that'll fix her
04:59<eMJay>Celestar: what are you serving?
04:59<@Celestar>doing ls on a directory on the server takes up to 15 seconds
04:59<@Celestar>eMJay: departmental /homes :)
04:59<dih>eMJay: a FIFO signal system would only be of interest if it was switchable
04:59<dih>and not just for the game
04:59<dih>Celestar: free?
04:59<eMJay>dih, how do you mean switchable?
04:59<@Celestar>dih: what do you mean?
04:59<eMJay>as in, you could turn off FIFO behaviour?
04:59<dih>type free!
05:00<@Celestar>]# free -m total used free shared buffers cached
05:00<@Celestar>Mem: 3903 3881 21 0 0 3224
05:00<@Celestar>-/+ buffers/cache: 656 3246
05:00<dih>eMJay: why would i want every signal block to use a FIFO system
05:00<dih>Celestar: there is some echo <number> /proc/<somehwere> you can do to free up some mem
05:00<@Celestar>dih: why do I need to free mem?
05:00<eMJay>because it would lead to more even utilisation of the signal block by all the entrances of that block
05:00<@Celestar>it's all cache anyway
05:00<@petern>there's loads of free mem there
05:01<dih>sometimes a linux system can mem odd stuff that you dont need anymore
05:01<@Celestar>I have an I/O problem, not a mem problem, have I not?
05:01<eMJay>for i in `ps aux`; do killall $i;
05:02<@petern>all the linux experts are here today
05:02<@Celestar>I can't do these experiments on a production server :P
05:02<@Celestar>otherwise people will siege my office in no time
05:02<eMJay>dih: why wouldn't you want FIFO signal blocks?
05:02<eMJay>priority i assume?
05:03<@petern>priority, performance...
05:03<dih>eMJay: i like more controll over my priority
05:03<eMJay>isn't that done with presignals?
05:03<@petern>some people might want to keep exsting behaviour
05:04<dih>eMJay: i.e. 2 lanes, 1 with prio
05:04<dih>prio line always gets prio over the other line
05:04<@Celestar>disk I/O is WAAAAAY to high
05:05<dih>expect if there is a bunch of trains waiting at the prio line so that the queue too far back, then the odd train from the 2nd lane may go
05:06<Brianetta>priority should be governed by train orders.
05:06<blathijs>What is the current behaviour anyway? You can't set priority, or can you?
05:07<blathijs>Isn't it currently the train with the lowest ID that gets to go first or something?
05:07<Brianetta>blathijs: Yes.
05:07<Brianetta>That's if they're all actually waiting.
05:07<eMJay>I thought it was more like, whichever the game tries to move first
05:07<eMJay>after the light goes green
05:08<eMJay>eg trains 1 and 3 are waiting for train 2 to clear a signal block
05:08<blathijs>Yeah, so probably lowest id first I think
05:08<@petern>depends which train gets to move first
05:08<eMJay>train 1 tries to move, but can't
05:08<eMJay>train 2 moves and clears the block
05:08<@petern>so generally the most powerful train
05:08<eMJay>train 3 moves into the block
05:08<blathijs>petern: Trains are sorted by speed, or what/
05:08<@petern>no sorting
05:08<eMJay>thus, in this case train 3 is higher prio
05:09<@petern>just a lower power train won't be able to move quickly enough
05:09<eMJay>how far away from the boundary of the sigblock do trains stop?
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05:15<eMJay>Ok, so at the moment, a signal block with regular signals and two equal trains waiting will allow a (semi) random train to go first
05:16<eMJay>with non-equal trains, the train with higher acceleration will tend to go first, but it is still (semi) random
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05:39<@petern>$ free
05:39<@petern> total used free shared buffers cached
05:39<@petern>Mem: 4091844 58652 4033192 0 4200 26752
05:39<@petern>-/+ buffers/cache: 27700 4064144
05:39<@petern>freeboots :o
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05:50<dih>for some reason my comp will not use the last GB of memory i have
05:50<dih>it's not even shown... :-(
05:50<dih>perhaps i need to flash my bios
05:50<dih>it's only using 3 of the 4
05:50<@Celestar>dih: even on a 64-bit kernel?
05:51<dih>have not tried the 64 bit
05:51<@petern>my 4GB works with a 32 bit kernel
05:51<@Celestar>petern: is that with PAE?
05:51<dih>my bios does not even look at more than 3
05:52<@petern>has to be :)
05:52<@Celestar>it doesn't :P
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05:52<@Celestar>but then you only see 2GB
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05:57<eMJay>dih: windows xp?
05:58<@Celestar>Windows XP can address more than 2GB?
05:59<FauxFaux>Define address? Basically, yes, it's 4gb - reserved.
05:59<@Celestar>I haven't touched Windows installations in years
05:59<eMJay>winxp can do up to about 3Gb
05:59<eMJay>despite 32bit being technically able to address 4gb
06:00<@Celestar>eMJay: well that includes kernel address space
06:00<@Celestar>somewhere the Video memory and other crap needs to reside
06:00<FauxFaux>It can do exactly 4gb, but some stuff (like the graphics memory) is mapped into the address space, which meanr you'se likely to only see 3-3.5gb.
06:00<FauxFaux>To be honest, if you're running a 32-bit os you deserve everything you get. :p
06:01<@Celestar>s/32-bit os/windows/
06:02<@Celestar>/dev/evms/lvm2/td/home 8.1T 7.9T 255G 97% /nfs/home
06:02<@Celestar>this just sucks
06:02<blathijs>I seem to be using all of my 4GB mem on my 32 bit linux just fine, it seems:
06:02<blathijs> total used free shared buffers cached
06:02<blathijs>Mem: 3863 3827 35 0 573 2873
06:02<blathijs>-/+ buffers/cache: 380 3483
06:02<@Rubidium>Celestar: rm -rf /nfs/home &
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06:03<@Celestar>blathijs: using a PAE kernel as well I presume?
06:04*petern is running a 32 bit OS due to have 32 bit CPUs...
06:04*Brianetta too
06:04<@Celestar>my laptop is 32 bit as well
06:04<@Celestar>but only has 2GB or RAM
06:04<@Celestar>so it's ok
06:04<Brianetta>All my hardware is 32 bit. Helen has a 64 bit box.
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06:05<@Celestar>my laptop == all my hardware
06:05<Brianetta>She's running a 32 bit OS, though
06:05<Brianetta>makes update management and caching easier.
06:05<blathijs>Celestar: If "HIGHMEM4G" is PAE, then yes
06:05<@Celestar>blathijs: basically yes afaik
06:05<@Celestar>apart from my workstation which is 64-bit, but then again has 16GB RAM
06:05<@Celestar>er 8 GB. plus 8 swap :P
06:08<blathijs>sick :-)
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06:09<@Celestar>blathijs: if you have to dig through datasets in the terabytes size, this is sickly small, yes (=
06:09<yorick>Celestar: has the cargodest bug with pressing the routing button while being spectator been fixed?
06:10<yorick>on the smallmap, I mean
06:10<@Celestar>yorick: can't remember, will test tomorrow
06:11<dih>11:57 < eMJay> dih: windows xp? <- why on earth would i do that?
06:11<@Celestar>maybe you're a masochist?
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06:12<dih>i have an amd 64
06:12<@Celestar>my fragmentation of the XFS driver in question is 31% :o
06:12<dih>and debian lenny 32bit
06:13<@Celestar>OpenSUSE 10.3, 11.0 and 11.1b3 here
06:13<dih>Celestar: boot up a windows system, install an xfs driver, run defrag :-D
06:13<@Celestar>dih: xfs has a defrag tool :D
06:13<HentaiXP>is the skyos sources for openttd in suversion?
06:13<dih>Celestar: i have personal aversion to SuSE
06:14<@Celestar>M$ is waaaaay to incompetent to make an XFS driver
06:14<@petern>what is skyos?
06:14<dih>HentaiXP: openttd does not use 'suversion'
06:14<@petern>and what is suversion?
06:14<@Celestar>dih: the reason being?
06:14<HentaiXP>is the skyos sources for openttd in subversion?
06:14<@petern>you said that
06:14<dih>Celestar: more packages, less issues with certain app's
06:15<dih>+ i need to dev for a 32bit conference server :-)
06:15<@petern>never heard of skyos, so assume not
06:15<HentaiXP>yes I corrected it.
06:16<TrueBrain>wow, 0.6.3 ebuild was accepted in portage ...
06:16<@Celestar>I'm out hunting some food
06:16<@Celestar>TrueBrain: it was :D
06:17<dih>happy days
06:17<dih>enjoy your meal TrueBrain
06:19<scarabeus>TrueBrain: could tell ya but i was not sure that you are around ;]
06:20<TrueBrain>scarabeus: today, I am :)
06:20<dih>scarabeus: as soon as you see a TrueBrain nick in the names list, you can chat to him :-P
06:20<TrueBrain>too bad the hard mask is not removed ..
06:20<scarabeus>i know i know
06:21<TrueBrain>and dih, it was Celestar who was getting a meal :p
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06:22<scarabeus>TrueBrain: btw i think that for that 7.0 we can prepare suprise in giving them opensourced datafiles
06:22<scarabeus>i think pple will be happy
06:22<dih>Celestar: enjoy your meal :-P
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06:22<@Celestar>tx :P
06:23<dih>TrueBrain: yeah - i just like talking with ya
06:23<TrueBrain>scarabeus: that project is not done yet
06:23<dih>scarabeus: it will take YEARS for 7.0
06:23<TrueBrain>dih: I know :)
06:23<scarabeus>ok than 7.4
06:23<dih>6.4 will also take YEARS
06:23<scarabeus>i dont mind what your release is named :]
06:23<dih>0.7 ?
06:23<scarabeus>i dont write first zero
06:23<scarabeus>and today i even dont write the dot
06:24<dih>well it makes a different
06:24<scarabeus>so suprise suprise
06:24<dih>.7% != 7%
06:24<TrueBrain>dih: you know damn well what he means :)
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06:24<dih>TrueBrain: yep :-D
06:24<dih>it's just been so long since someone last did that
06:24*dih pats scarabeus on the head :-D
06:24<@Rubidium>oh, so scarabeus thinks he's very cool for using windows 31 when windows 7 is not released yet
06:25<dih>Rubidium: windows 311 even
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06:26<scarabeus>nah i just use vista ;]
06:26<scarabeus>and turn aero on
06:27<scarabeus>actualy i kinda like that system, because i was forced to rewrite some tools which were only for windows so i can use them on linux
06:30<@Celestar>life. sucks.
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06:34<scarabeus>i will try to convince robat if he would take that mask away or limit it
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06:35<scarabeus>but i am not sure what time it is now in canada... :]
06:36<@Rubidium>HentaiXP: I can't even find a skyos port of openttd, only uncited openttd supports skyos stuff
06:36<HentaiXP>such I thought so Rubidium thank you
06:36<TrueBrain>scarabeus: it would benice if it would be removed :) Oh well .. time will remove it anyway, I guess :)
06:37<scarabeus>actualy on monday i will get the rights to do it myself i guess
06:37<scarabeus>but i am lazy to wait
06:37<TrueBrain>aren't we all ;)
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06:41<yorick>hmm, the packet header is little endian?
06:42<yorick>18 00 20 <-- that's size 24, packet #32, right?
06:42<blathijs>Isn't everything just in network-order (BE IIRC)
06:42<yorick>blathijs: see ^
06:43<blathijs>yorick: I think you're looking at big-endian there
06:43<blathijs>not sure, though
06:43<yorick>18 00 in big-endian makes 24?
06:44<@petern>little endian
06:44<@petern>a packet size of 9216 bytes makes no sense
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06:45<SpComb>yes it does!
06:45<yorick>SpComb: no it doesn't
06:45*petern fragments SpComb
06:45<yorick>simply because 24 bytes later, there's another perfectly valid packet
06:46<SpComb>petern: length headers in UDP packets don't make any sense
06:47<SpComb>UDP packets already have a defined length
06:47<TrueBrain>blathijs: OpenTTD is (I know, stupid), LE in its network protocol (independant of host endian)
06:47<blathijs>yorick: This does seem to be little-endian indeed, I was confused
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06:47<blathijs>TrueBrain: Interesting :-)
06:47<yorick>TrueBrain: "So the byte order is ALWAYS 1 2 3 4" <-- doesn't that mean big-endian?
06:48<blathijs>TrueBrain: That's probably because all the endian stuff was introduced when we had only little-endian support
06:48<TrueBrain>blathijs: more a design error when I was writing that .. I never considered using network-endian :p
06:48<TrueBrain>void Packet::Send_uint32(uint32 data)
06:48<TrueBrain> assert(this->size < sizeof(this->buffer) - sizeof(data));
06:48<TrueBrain> this->buffer[this->size++] = GB(data, 0, 8);
06:48<TrueBrain> this->buffer[this->size++] = GB(data, 8, 8);
06:48<TrueBrain> this->buffer[this->size++] = GB(data, 16, 8);
06:48<TrueBrain> this->buffer[this->size++] = GB(data, 24, 8);
06:48<TrueBrain>yorick: you do the math
06:49<TrueBrain>blathijs: no, BE/LE handling was there even before I started working on OpenTTD
06:49<TrueBrain>so that makes .. 0.3.3 or something?
06:49<blathijs>TrueBrain: But I guess we were already supporting OSX then?
06:49<yorick>oh, you name the bytes from right-to-left
06:50<blathijs>TrueBrain: I just meant that originally there was only little-endian support, so the network protocol was naturally little-endian. And you probably took that over (What's the proper english translation for that?)
06:51<SpComb>#define GB
06:51<TrueBrain>blathijs: not really ;) There was both LE and BE, but ingame most things are converted to LE .. the reason I took LE, was because I wasn't thinking, and just wrote those Send_uint32 in the first way I came across :)
06:51<blathijs>GetBit(value, start_bit, end_bit)
06:52<blathijs>TrueBrain: :-)
06:52<TrueBrain>which happens to be i & 0xFF, (i >> 8) & 0xFF, ...
06:52<TrueBrain>there wasn't really any reason for it .. ;)
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06:54<blathijs>It should be easy to switch to BE, but it really doesn't matter at all :-)
06:54<TrueBrain>nobody cares, I guess :)
06:54<yorick>I do...
06:54<TrueBrain>I know I don't :)
06:55<TrueBrain>jus tpeople like yorick get confused .. and seem not to be able to think
06:55<yorick>your explanation of the endianness on the wiki is confusing and lacks an example
06:55*yorick goes writing example
06:55<TrueBrain>then don't use the wiki :)
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06:58<yorick>good morning
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07:05<@petern>endianness is a pretty simple concept
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07:17<FloSoft>hi, how can i enable to use stations of other companys?
07:18<ln>you can't, not with the official version.
07:18<FloSoft>why not? ;)
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07:22<dih>FloSoft: search the forums for Infrastructure Sharing
07:22<dih>it's a patch
07:22<dih>the server and all connecting clients must use this build
07:22<dih>else it will not work ;-)
07:23<FloSoft>ah okay
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09:13<TrueBrain>you are a fish?
09:13<@Belugas>a dolphin
09:13<@Belugas>a fish doe snot produce bubbles, you FalseBrain!
09:13<TrueBrain>I like dolphins
09:14*Belugas hugs TrueBrain
09:14*TrueBrain hugs Belugas
09:15<TrueBrain>wrong window
09:15<TrueBrain>the sad thing is .. not your first time ;)
09:16<@Belugas>and unless i quit IRC, it will happen again...
09:16<@Belugas>sign that i
09:16*Brianetta tries to figure out which person was replaced by a PyBorg
09:16<@Belugas>m devoted to the casue!
09:16<Brianetta>I suspect that it's the pair of you
09:18<TrueBrain>Brianetta: the fact you are wondering about it, makes us pass the tuning test
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09:19<Brianetta>TrueBrain: Not quite. The fact that I am wondering about it means that you are *sitting* a Turing test.
09:19<Brianetta>No pressure.
09:19<TrueBrain>fair enough
09:19<TrueBrain>let me know when you know
09:19<Brianetta>Belugas is the machine.
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09:24<@Belugas>me? a machine?
09:25<Brianetta>Well, in a properly set up Turing test, one of the participants must be machine. It's the machine that's being tested.
09:26<Brianetta>If you're not the machine, Belugas, then TrueBrain passed the Turing test. If you are, then you failed it.
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09:26<yorick>so a properly set up TUring test never fails?
09:27<Brianetta>yorick: Never fails to what?
09:27<yorick>the subject is always a machine
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09:27<Brianetta>yorick: The Turing test is a test intended for a machine, yes.
09:27<Brianetta>Do you know how the test is applied?
09:28<yorick>but isn't the whole point of the tast that you want to know whether the subject is a machine?
09:29<Brianetta>The whole point of the Turing test is to measure whether or not an AI is deemed intelligent.
09:29<Brianetta>The test consists of a number of conversations.
09:30<Brianetta>Participants converse with a machine and a human, via similar means (usually text based).
09:30<Brianetta>The human at the other end converses back, and the machine does likewise.
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09:30<Brianetta>If 30% or more of the participants cannot successfully say which of the conversations was with a machine, then the machine has passed the Turing test.
09:31<yorick>oh, that kind of Turingtest
09:31<Brianetta>There is only one kind.
09:31<Brianetta>Alan Turing devised it.
09:31<Brianetta>That's why it bears his name.
09:31<Brianetta>Other tests aren't the Turing test.
09:32<yorick>reverse Turing test
09:32<Brianetta>You're going to have to be much more specific.
09:33-!-apo_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:33<Brianetta>"The term reverse Turing test has no single clear definition"
09:33<Brianetta>You're going to have to be much more specific.
09:34<TrueBrain>Brianetta: so I passed the turing test .. YEAH!
09:34*TrueBrain celebrates
09:34<TrueBrain>(I have proof Belugas is not a bot ;))
09:35<Brianetta>TrueBrain: This does mean that you were the computer, though (:
09:36<yorick>Brianetta: machine testing humans
09:37<yorick>to see if they're human
09:37<Brianetta>Captchas etc?
09:37<Brianetta>Not a Turing test.
09:37<Brianetta>Just using the name.
09:37<TrueBrain>not even remotely :)
09:37<Brianetta>Poor Alan Turing. He was too gay to get recognition while he was alive.
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09:38<@petern>one of my colleagues met alan turing, back in the 80s
09:38<Brianetta>petern: He died in the 50s
09:39<yorick>Brainetta: so did his colleagues?
09:39*Brianetta tries to parse what petern said in a different way
09:39<Doorslammer>Ah, the real Dr Who
09:39<@petern>this colleague knows jack shit and tries to blag his way through
09:39<Brianetta>yorick: You're making less sense than babyottd
09:39<Brianetta>petern: Ah (:
09:39<TrueBrain>Brianetta: wie immer
09:39<@petern>obviously when i pointed out he was dead then, he stumbled a bit...
09:40<Brianetta>TrueBrain: doch (:
09:44<@Belugas>the test operator failed wonderfully since he did not understood that both entities were real humans
09:44<@Belugas>crap :P
09:45<Gekz>did not understand*
09:45<Gekz>bad past tense user
09:45*Celestar yawns
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09:48<@Belugas>i'm getting tense...
09:50*Celestar doesn't understand what's going on
09:53*Belugas does not either
09:53<yorick>he did not understood --> he did not understand ;)
09:53<TrueBrain>@kban yorick 60 stop doing that, it is annoying
09:53-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
09:53-!-yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [stop doing that, it is annoying]
09:54<TrueBrain>I wonder if he would ever understand
09:54-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
09:54<TrueBrain>I guess I should kick Gekz too, but I like Gekz :p
09:54-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
09:55<Gekz>I was doing you a favour
09:55<Gekz>extending your skill in English
09:55<Gekz>not being a wanker.
09:55<TrueBrain>Gekz: well, currently in my opinion you are a wanker :)
09:55<Gekz>I like it when people correct my French or German
09:55<TrueBrain>correcting, okay .. doing it all the time: annoying
09:55<TrueBrain>there is a balance :)
09:55<Gekz>TrueBrain: I could have corrected you before but did not
09:55<Gekz>simply because I know that _you_ dont care.
09:56<TrueBrain>keep it that way ;)
09:56-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
09:56<TrueBrain>(really, this channel is getting a tiny bit out of control regarding 'correcting' people :))
09:56<yorick>I was doing you a favour
09:56<yorick> extending your skill in English
09:56<@Belugas>it's ok, i'm not just n a good mood due to this insanity called work@work
09:56*TrueBrain gives Belugas coffee :)
09:57<Gekz>yorick: ban evading much?
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10:00<yorick>oh, I didn't see gekz
10:00<Gekz>now that was a lie.
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10:19<Foto2>Can anyone pleas help me whit the "Multiplayer" in OPEN TTD 0.6.3 ?
10:19<TrueBrain>ask the question, and you will know soon enough :)
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10:20<Foto2>when i go on myltiplayer and perss "Find Server" (connect) then i go off the internet
10:21<Foto2>why ?
10:21<TrueBrain>I don't understand the question, so I can't really help you (sorry)
10:21<Foto2>in OPEN TTD 0.6.3
10:21<yorick>I think he wants to say pressing "Find Server" makes it go to the main menu
10:23<Foto2>that get a much IP up and no servers the IP-servers is Offline
10:23<Foto2>but ...
10:23<yorick>so it does not display any info about the servers
10:23<Foto2>When i pressing "Find Server" (connect) there not connect
10:24<Foto2>you dont understand i think
10:24<yorick>what do you mean with "Find Server" (connect)
10:24<TrueBrain>nope, sorry ...
10:24<TrueBrain>make a screenshot or something?
10:24<Foto2>i can try
10:25<dih>Foto: does the drop-down say Lan or Internet?
10:25<Foto2>but my internet is go off
10:25<dih>are you on a wireless?
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10:25<Foto2>not whit my friends but all other
10:25<Foto2>no LAN
10:26<yorick>what is the actual problem?
10:26<dih>do you have a network cable leading to your computer (YES/NO)
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10:32<Foto2^>Hey ! who has take my nick ?
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10:33<yorick>Foto2^: you have
10:33<yorick>ping timeout
10:33-!-Foto2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 484 seconds]
10:34<Foto2^>thx ...
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10:36<Foto2>that fail ...
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10:39<yorick>so you lose connection?
10:40<yorick>do you have a network cable leading to your computer (YES/NO)?
10:43<@Belugas>AND YOU?
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11:02<Foto2>thats not LAN
11:02<Foto2>i using a router
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11:05<yorick>Foto2: what?
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11:18<@SmatZ>TrueBrain: I see OpenTTD in the official gentoo portage :)
11:22<Foto2>Anyway forget thats -_-
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11:23<Foto2>Bye ...
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11:44<@Belugas>fr fr fr freezing in h h h here
11:44*yorick gives coffee to belugas
11:45*Belugas pats yorick on the head
11:45<@Belugas>good boy, good boy
11:45*yorick moves whale up developer ranking list
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11:47<@Belugas>it was -1 Celcius this morning. Looks like the cold is now starting to enter the room
11:47<@Belugas>joy :(
11:48<TrueBrain>SmatZ: yup! Now the hard mask ..
11:50<@Belugas>part you meant?
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12:08<@Belugas>so... forums reading time
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12:30<@Belugas>boring forums users
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 23 12:35:35 2008
---Logopened Thu Oct 23 12:35:37 2008
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12:35-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 96 nicks [6 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 88 normal]
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12:42<TrueBrain>I haven't read the forum in ages
12:42<TrueBrain>nothing useful there
12:43<TrueBrain>and I really meant 'mask' .. Gentoo has a so called 'hard mask' on OpenTTd, which makes it difficult to get OpentTD installed on Gentoo
12:44<@Belugas>yeah, lately, forums are one big plate of emptiness
12:44<@Belugas>there are a few good stuff going in, like the graphics efforts
12:44<@Belugas>but new users are so... uyrk
12:44<@Belugas>and fucking clueless...
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13:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14523 /trunk/src/lang/ (italian.txt unfinished/indonesian.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
13:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-23 17:42:35
13:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: indonesian - 668 fixed by dnaftali (668)
13:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: italian - 6 changed by lorenzodv (6)
13:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: persian - 88 fixed by ali sattari (88)
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14:16<@SmatZ>TrueBrain: is it possible to get rid of that "- games-simulation/openttd-0.6.3 (masked by: EAPI 2)" message?
14:17-!-welshdragon [~vista@adsl-83-100-138-245.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
14:17<@SmatZ>apart from updating portage ;)
14:17<welshdragon>sorry, i wasn't calling you lot wankers
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14:17<TrueBrain>SmatZ: as I said, openttd is still hard masked
14:18<welshdragon>i forgot to /part before i /quit
14:18<TrueBrain>SmatZ: but comment out the line in /usr/portage/profiles/package.mask, or add an entry in your /etc/profile/package.unmask
14:19<@SmatZ>TrueBrain: I have edited package.unmask just after it was masked :) now I am trying an x86 system :)
14:19<@SmatZ>I just wonder if it really needs EAPI 2
14:20<TrueBrain>I have no idea what EAPI is :)
14:20<TrueBrain>in my ebuilds I have EAPI="1"
14:20<TrueBrain>the one in portage indeed is EAPI 2
14:21<@SmatZ>ah ok :)
14:22<TrueBrain>no idea why
14:22<TrueBrain>I see no reason ..
14:22<@Belugas>mmh... i miss the global replace of a string, in MSVC :(
14:22<@Belugas>good tools in there
14:23<@Belugas>delphi 6 can only do it one file at a time
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14:49<@DorpsGek>Belugas: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
14:51<yorick>you forgot?
14:53<Brianetta>clearly not one of them bots
14:54<planetmaker>thx Belugas :)
14:54-!-Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggstry
14:54<planetmaker>I could swear that it once was accessible via !... -alas :)
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14:56<@Belugas>hint : DorpsGek can answer those questions in PM
14:56<@Belugas>which would make it possible that you can forgive something as primal as the syntax or the data you are searcing for ;)
14:57<frosch123>though I guess !password only works when pming glx :)
14:57<@Belugas>and nobody would be witness of your ... incapacity
14:57<planetmaker>that's transfering knowledge from the public server bot to this bot. Not capable of that :P
14:58<planetmaker>hehe :)
14:58<@Belugas>public server bot?
14:58<@Belugas>what's that?
14:58<planetmaker>we can talk to our public server via IRC, too.
14:58<planetmaker>it's a tcl script which runs it.
14:59<planetmaker>e.g. we can ask it privately for the current password :)
14:59<planetmaker>or client list or alike
14:59<@Belugas>ho... on coop irc...
14:59<planetmaker>or publicly :P
15:00<planetmaker>I'm not going to try !password here again too soon :)
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15:11<Eddi|zuHause>be glad, i get killed without !password
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15:47<ben_goodger>that's better
15:47<ben_goodger>good evening, gentlemen [and possible ladies], and happy mole day
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15:56<@Belugas>hello ben
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16:10<@petern>did you mean possibly ladies?
16:10<@petern>possible ladies might be something else... :)
16:12<ben_goodger>eh, this is true
16:18<ln>why is the theme song for House M.D. different in europe?
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16:20<@petern>licensing usually
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause>i know that they replaced the prison break theme in germany for marketing purposes
16:22<ln>in the US and A it is Massive Attack's Mezzanine (well, parts of it), and something specifically composed for House in europe.
16:23<@Belugas>they did dare ?
16:24<@Belugas>not going to watch the show anymore
16:24<Sacro>it is Teardrop isn't it?
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16:25<ln>Sacro: er, yes, that's true. mezzanine was the name of the album it is on.
16:25<@Belugas>Due to rights and licensing issues, "Teardrop" cannot be used in some countries, so "House End Credits" replaces "Teardrop" as the opening theme in those countries.
16:25<@Belugas>dear wiki
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16:53<+glx>usually it's not that
16:54<Sacro>could be an 80 year old woman with syphillis
16:54<ln>glx: let's take an MRI to confirm that
16:54<TrueBrain>one can always hope
16:55<@Belugas>nope cope toad told fold cold
16:57<ln>imdb or wiki said that hugh laurie was douglas adams's choice for the role of arthur dent.
17:00<@Belugas>whhoo... i feel so good to know that
17:02-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:02<@Belugas>allez hop, j'en ai marre, m'en retourne chez nous
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17:05<ln>a standard Bjarni
17:06<Prof_Frink>What standard? BS? ISO? DIN?
17:10<@Bjarni>I'm not following a standard
17:10<@Bjarni>I'm unique
17:10<@Bjarni>just like everybody else
17:10<TrueBrain>are you sure about that?
17:12<@Bjarni>why shouldn't I be?
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17:14<Prof_Frink>We are all individuals!
17:14<TrueBrain>I don't agree on that
17:14<TrueBrain>I feel more individual than you do
17:14<Prof_Frink>Lies. You don't exist.
17:15<TrueBrain>Can you proof that?
17:15<TrueBrain>nice Progman :)
17:15<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: Yes.
17:15<Prof_Frink>I exist. You are not me. Therefore you don't exist.
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17:16<TrueBrain>I agree
17:18<TrueBrain>my sister has a baby girl of 1 years old .. what hit me .. we try to teach a bot to learn to speak in 1 or 2 hours, where it takes a baby over a year to do so ..
17:18<TrueBrain>(sorry, random thought ;))
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17:21<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: it's not that random
17:21<@Bjarni>besides they can't talk before the throat is developed enough to actually produce the sounds
17:22<ln>still we're not trying to teach dutch to the bot.
17:22<TrueBrain>the thought itself was, and it is not your position to tell me it is not
17:22<@Bjarni>meaning they have to be usually 12-16 months before they can talk
17:22<@Bjarni>ln: that was actually an interesting idea. Why should we only teach it English?
17:23<ln>Bjarni: because belugas gets confused from non-english.
17:23<ben_goodger>Bjarni: because it cannot distinguish between the two, and will end up speaking some monstrous language of its own invention
17:23<ben_goodger>like Americans
17:23<Prof_Frink>ben_goodger: Welsh?
17:24<@Bjarni>then we will get this fine bot telling us stuff in Dutchrish
17:24<ben_goodger>"welsh and cornish are the first languages designed specifically to make their speakers different from english speakers. this is worryingly attention-seeking behaviour."
17:24<TrueBrain>babyottd will never make sense, so who cares about which language ;) (it simply isn't programmed to reply in context, it just .. replies :p)
17:24<ben_goodger>~ discuss
17:25<Prof_Frink>Cornwall has cliffs, Wales has cliffs and crags. To hell with the people.
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>i would be a terrible teacher at dutch ;)
17:26<TrueBrain>most likely as terrible as I would be teaching german :)
17:27<ben_goodger>Prof_Frink: I would like to point out that we also have defectant-covered beaches and a lot of urban deprivation
17:27<@Bjarni>hmm... what's cornish like?
17:27<@Bjarni>it sounds somewhat corny :P
17:27<ben_goodger>Bjarni: diphthong-covered
17:27<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: It's pasty.
17:27<ben_goodger>although it is useful for place names
17:28<ben_goodger>for instance, Saint Austell becomes Sen Ostell, which is very handy because everyone calls it "sunt ostall" or "snozzle"
17:29<TrueBrain>hmm .. for any bot to reply in context, it also needs to have emotions, else it will be very .. stupid
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17:30<@Bjarni>a guy told me today that he once spoke with some people from England. He didn't understand them and they switched dialect to something you would expect to hear from the London area. I asked him to quote how they spoke as first
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17:30<@Bjarni>and I said "sounds like south west England"
17:30<@Bjarni>now I guess I was right :)
17:31<ben_goodger>Bjarni: yes, the local dialect is a sinus-modulated "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr"
17:31<@Bjarni>however getting an imitation from a guy, who failed to understand it isn't that precise :P
17:31<ln>it's nearly impossible to understand what the hell people in London are saying.
17:31<Prof_Frink>Ooo arr
17:32<@Bjarni>I remember when my mom returned from London. She said that it took them a while to figure out what the ticket salesman in the busses said
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's called "OOo"
17:32<@Bjarni>it sounded like "tikofa"
17:32<@Bjarni>that's "tik-o-fa"
17:32<@Bjarni>do you have a clue to what they said? :)
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17:33<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Idling speed.
17:33<@Bjarni>"ticket or face"
17:34<ln>whose face?
17:34<@Bjarni>your own
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17:34<@Bjarni>on your card that lasts for a month
17:34<ben_goodger>there's some sort of automated card system...
17:34<ben_goodger>I haven't had the misfortune to spend any time in london
17:35<@Bjarni>I was once invited to London. I had to turn down the offer because I had an exam :/
17:35<ben_goodger>it's nothing particularly special
17:35<ln>Bjarni: bad excuse
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17:35<ben_goodger>Prof_Frink: that's only for the tube, surely
17:35<ben_goodger>the nice bits are pretty much like the rest of the UK
17:35-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:35<ben_goodger>the rest of it is very unpleasant
17:35<Prof_Frink>ben_goodger: Nope, all tfl stuff
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>whoever can receive it, do not turn on the channel "RTL II" right now
17:36<@Bjarni>then the whole cartoon thing exploded and angry Muslims walked the streets of London and requested that all Danes should die
17:36<ben_goodger>what on earth is RTL?
17:36<@Bjarni>and that happened during that week where we had planned to go to London
17:36<Chrill>to me, RTL is a German TV channel
17:36<ln>ben_goodger: Radio Television Luxemburg
17:36<@Bjarni>somehow I'm happy that I wasn't in London at the time
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>"Radio Television Luxemburg"
17:37<+glx>I only have RTL9
17:37<Chrill>German TV
17:37<ben_goodger>Bjarni: I'm sure that was limited to only a few isolated streets of fascist scum-buckets^W^W^Wprotestors
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>they were interviewing a guy who is "in love" with a locomotive
17:37<ln>Bjarni: well no one insists you to wear danish flag while abroad?
17:38<@Bjarni>isn't that mandatory?
17:38<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> they were interviewing a guy who is "in love" with a locomotive <-- who did? and which locomotive?
17:38<ben_goodger>Bjarni: yes, we have national stereotypes enforced by passport control
17:39<ln><@Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> they were interviewing a guy who is "in love" with a locomotive <-- who did? and which locomotive? <--- you're afraid it's cheating on you?
17:39<@Bjarni>it's faithful
17:39<ben_goodger>americans have to be over 100 kilograms to enter, and are obliged to spend all their time wandering between tourist traps
17:40<@Bjarni>and get upset that they can't use US dollars everywhere
17:40<ln>what's a good place to visit in britain, if london has already been seen twice? and don't tell me "france".
17:40<@Bjarni>since they accept them in other 3rd world countries
17:41<@Bjarni>ln: York
17:41<Prof_Frink>ln: Skye.
17:41<@Bjarni>Prof_Frink: what's interesting on the isle of Skye?
17:41<ben_goodger>ln: canterbury, exeter, cambridge
17:41<@Bjarni>besides the Highland railroad lines
17:41<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Big, pointy mountains.
17:42<@Bjarni>isn't that the same as Scotland?
17:42<@Bjarni>or a brothel :P
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>you have never seen a real mountain in your life :p
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17:42<Prof_Frink>Yeah, but the rest of Scotland doesn't have a peak called the "Inaccessible Pinnacle".
17:42<@Bjarni>I have driven all the way around Iceland
17:43<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Pfft.
17:43<ben_goodger>blast you!
17:43<@Bjarni>I have seen a thing or two about mountains
17:43<ln>Bjarni: what, you've been to iceland?
17:43<Prof_Frink>I've wheeled a trolley all the way around iceland.
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>have you bought it?
17:43<ben_goodger>it'll be three more years before I can get a foreign hire car
17:43<@Bjarni>no, I drove around Iceland, but I have never been there
17:43<@Bjarni>what do you think :)
17:43<ln>Bjarni: google earth?
17:44<ln>ben_goodger: why's that?
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>all i ever saw of iceland was the airport when switching planes
17:44<@Bjarni>the airport is placed in the most boring part of Iceland
17:44<ben_goodger>minimum age is 21, at least for spain, which is the only country I've ever actually been to that involved hiring a car
17:44<@Bjarni>where did the 2nd line come from?
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>frankfurt-new york and baltimore-frankfurt via iceland
17:45<@Bjarni>it's a timestamp... and it's even wrong
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17:45<@Bjarni>not to mention.... I didn't write it
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17:45<@Bjarni>I don't know about hiring cars in Iceland
17:46<@Bjarni>I used connections to borrow one
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>it was your keylogger who is getting sentient
17:46<@Bjarni>but I have seen better cars
17:46<@Bjarni>3rd gear was broken >_<
17:46<ben_goodger>what was it?
17:46<ln>ben_goodger: are you saying you are 17 or something?
17:47<ben_goodger>ln: eighteen...and a month....and nine days...and 22 hours...ish
17:47<@Bjarni>the car itself was a regular car... it was just that 3rd gear was broken and you needed it all the time for the hills
17:47<ben_goodger>how can third gear be broken?
17:47<ben_goodger>that's hugely confusing
17:47<ln>hmm, would have expected a bit more based on what you've spoken.
17:48<@Bjarni>the lock that prevents it from going from 3rd gear to neutral was broken
17:48<ben_goodger>the clutch? :P
17:48<@Bjarni>meaning you could get it in 3rd gear, but if you let go of the gear handle, it slipped into neutral
17:48<@Bjarni>not the clutch :P
17:48<ben_goodger>ah, I see
17:48<@Bjarni>the other gears worked just fine
17:48<ben_goodger>I'd hold it into third then, my friend
17:49<@Bjarni>that didn't really work well either
17:49<ben_goodger>I keep my left hand on the stick all the time anyway
17:49<@Bjarni>the wheel is in the left side in Iceland since they drive on the right side
17:49<Prof_Frink>wrong side.
17:49<ben_goodger>Prof_Frink: I remind you that we English drive on the left
17:50<ben_goodger>Bjarni: I know...
17:50<Prof_Frink>Bjarni suggested that having the wheel on the left was somehow right.
17:50<ben_goodger>well, it makes more sense, to be honest
17:50<ben_goodger>decreases the cost of making the car for this market.
17:51<Prof_Frink>Not if you buy a japanese car.
17:51<@Bjarni>having the wheel in the left side means that you use your right hand to change gear
17:51<ben_goodger>but at the moment, german manufacturers (and american ones, not that it matters) have to build separate machines to produce horizontally flipped components
17:51<@Bjarni>and most people prefer to use the right hand
17:52<@Bjarni>I have actually tried to drive a Japanese car
17:52<@Bjarni>with the wheel in the right side
17:52<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Yes, but changing gear doesn't require much dexterity
17:52<@Bjarni>that was in Iceland too.... go figure :P
17:52<Prof_Frink>Grab-pull or grab-push
17:53<ben_goodger>unless you have a semi-auto :P
17:53<+glx>I'm used to drive with left arm only
17:53<ben_goodger>flappy paddle frw
17:53<@Bjarni>modern transmissions doesn't require much dexterity or force
17:53<@Bjarni>old transmissions on the other hand....
17:54<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: So you can use them left-handed, keeping fine control over steering
17:54<@Bjarni><glx> I'm used to drive with left arm only <-- you know that's not only illegal, it's also dangerous
17:54<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Pfft, I drive with no hands at times
17:54<ln>is the order of pedals mirrored in great britainish cars?
17:54<ben_goodger>ln: nope
17:54<ben_goodger>clutch, brake, accelerator
17:55<@Bjarni>no, but the turn signal and the vipers are
17:55<Prof_Frink>Snakes In A Car!
17:55<@Bjarni>you know what I mean :P
17:55<ben_goodger>Bjarni: actually they're not. the stalks are dependent on the manufacturing country
17:55<ben_goodger>my nissan has the indicator on the left, my mother's kia has the indicator on the right
17:55<@Bjarni>ok, they were in the Japanese car
17:56<ben_goodger>well, the japanese are clearly very clever
17:56<planetmaker>Hm. Assume I have a conditional order: if (...) goto order #n
17:56<planetmaker>is there a way to change n to m?
17:56<@Bjarni>which was a Toyota. They aren't mirrored in the Toyotas I have seen in Denmark
17:56<Prof_Frink>indicators right on every car I've driven
17:56<@Bjarni>the turn indicator is left on all cars in Denmark
17:57<+glx>is there a danish manufacturer?
17:57<ben_goodger>glx: don't be silly
17:57<@Bjarni>not anymore
17:57<@Bjarni>we used to produce different brands of cars
17:57<Prof_Frink>glx: Yes, but they manufacture bacons.
17:58<@Bjarni>but either they went out of money and stopped or (in one case) ran out of money and was sold to a German guy, who moved everything to Germany
17:58<@Bjarni>we used to make quite good electric cars
17:58<ben_goodger>the only manufacturers left in europe are vw, peugeot, renault, fiat, mercedes and bmw
17:58<ben_goodger>to my knowledge...
17:59<+glx>there's also dacia
18:00<ben_goodger>that's owned by renault
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18:00<@Bjarni> <-- we used to make those
18:00<ln>ben_goodger: Aston Martin?
18:00<ben_goodger>ln: subsidiary
18:00<@Bjarni>and now that German buyer is producing an improved version
18:00<+glx>and you call that a car?
18:00<ben_goodger>I think...
18:00<@Bjarni>it's an electric car
18:00<@Bjarni>it's bigger than it looks and really cheap to operate
18:00<ben_goodger>oh, no, it's independent
18:01<ben_goodger>add aston martin to my above list.
18:01<@Bjarni>we made "real" cars too, but I forgot the name and google failed to find "the car that I forgot the name of"
18:01<Prof_Frink>ben_goodger: ariel? noble?
18:01*Prof_Frink saw two Atoms on the A34 last weekend
18:02<@Bjarni>Prof_Frink: with your naked eyes?
18:02<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Yes.
18:02<@Bjarni>get them dressed
18:02<@Bjarni>your eyes are indecent
18:02<ben_goodger>I've never head of them
18:02<Prof_Frink>ben_goodger: You've never heard of the Ariel Atom?
18:03<ben_goodger>but now you have brought them up, I am prepared to accept their existence, if not their relevancy
18:03<Prof_Frink>Road-legal go-kart.
18:03<Prof_Frink>Destroyed Clarkson's face.
18:03<ben_goodger>yes, this may explain why I've not heard of it
18:04<ben_goodger>heheh, cool
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18:06<ben_goodger>hmm, we seem to have stalled
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18:08<ln>ben_goodger: one could kind of say Saab and Volvo were missing from your list too. Saab is a subsidiary of General Motors, not sure about Volvo.
18:08<+glx>volvo too IIRC
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18:09<ben_goodger>volvo is owned by Ford
18:09<ln>so it seems
18:09<ben_goodger>I wouldn't dare denigrate sweden by omitting its car manufacturers :P
18:10<ln>it's up to interpretation if the list should have GM and Ford then.
18:10<ben_goodger>I'm going by headquarters location, rather than manufacturing facilities
18:11<ben_goodger>and no subsidiaries of any kind
18:15<ben_goodger>so I ended up with just vw, peugeot, renault, fiat, mercedes and bmw
18:15<ben_goodger>though how BMW have not been acquired by VW is beyond me, as I will bet they have huge synergies [I do hate that word]
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18:18<ben_goodger>oh, that finance textbook I had 23 hours ago...
18:18<ben_goodger>it has now been joined by five more, making a total of 3775 pages of textbooks to read in the next ten days
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19:00<ln>¿porque no está personas españolas aquí?
19:02-!-Frostregen [] has quit [Quit: und weg]
19:03<ln>quite possiblé, i never finished the course i was on. :/ .. gotta take it again soon.
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, personas is plural, so the verb has to be, too
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>and porqué is emphasised on the last syllable, so it needs an accent
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>the rules of spanish are actually very simple (most of the time)
19:05<ln>probably so...
19:08<ln>since my attempted spanish course i have been twice to the kingdom of spain.
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>i've only been before my spanish course...
19:12<ln>i was kind of surprised when i actually understood the price of some item i was buying spoken out.
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's easier than in french, where, additionally to the uncommon words and ununderstandable pronounciation, you have to do weird calculations for all numbers betwenn 70 and 100
19:13<ln>heh, yeah. :)
19:14<ln>btw, *pronunciation
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>if you say so...
19:15<ln>it's odd, but that's how it's spelled.
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>you can't trust these british guys with spelling anyway
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause>why can't they say "outspeech" anyway? :p
19:18<ln>Sacro arrived just in time to explain... or did he just reconnect after timeout
19:19<ln>"outspeech" sounds quite technical, like from the owner's manual of an android.
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>well, it is a literal translation of the german word "Aussprache" ;)
19:20<Sacro>wtf is outspeech
19:20<ln>ich weiß :) das ist auch technisch
19:21<ln>Sacro: pronunciation in germanglish
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>german is like that... every complicated expression in foreignish has a very easy german equivalent ;)
19:21<Sacro>ln: oh
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: how you speak out a word
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: we were just discussing how english never makes any sense
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19:25<ln>in swedish: uttal (outspeaking)
19:25<welshdragon>Eddi|zuHause, german never makes sense
19:26<ln>welshdragon: it does, besides they get both cold and hot water from the same tap.
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: in german "Kauderwelsch" means someone who speaks total nonsense ;)
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19:26<welshdragon>Eddi|zuHause, in english, we call it vullshit
19:27<Sacro>that's south african
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>ln: why would you put the water through too different taps? besides of needing two taps, you'll have to switch between them constantly...
19:27<welshdragon>bullshit? nah, can't be :P
19:28<ln>Eddi|zuHause: ask the britons in here...
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>hm... no... "bullshit" doesn't quite cover the same meaning
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, more something like that
19:29<ln>should be noted that the finnish equivalent would be "pig's german"
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: german is actually one of the most logically structured languages out there
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>only people have huge trouble with logic anyway ;)
19:31<ln>welshdragon: can you give one example where german doesn't make sense?
19:31<welshdragon>ln, i don't understand the structure of german, it seems too 'loose'
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19:32<welshdragon>i do like one of the 'thank you' phrases though...
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>i've never seen another language where it's so easy to make up totally new words and everybody will understand you ;)
19:32<welshdragon>(excuse the spelling)
19:32<welshdragon>"fieden danke"?
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>that's almost close ;)
19:33<welshdragon>every time i said that in switzerland, the people woiuld grin
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>don't worry, they weren't pleased, they were just making fun of you ;)
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>the phrase is actually "vielen Dank"
19:35<welshdragon>ah, yes, well, i knew it was close
19:35<welshdragon>but i've never seen it written before, nor know it;s meaning
19:35<welshdragon>just assurances from my tour manager that the above saying was giid
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>"much/many thanks" is the literal meaning
19:36<ln>it's not a particularly good idea to say things whose meaning you don't know.
19:36<welshdragon>i went off the assurance it was a good thing
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>"ich möchte diesen teppich nicht kaufen"
19:36<ln>like "allah is a dog" in arabic, or something.
19:37<welshdragon>oh bollocks ><
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>this phrase will get you a beer almost anywhere in germany ;)
19:37<welshdragon>got to complete my french reading comprehension
19:37<ln>"i will not buy this record, it is scratched."
19:37<Sacro>oh tannenbaum oh tannenbaum
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>how can you think french is easier to learn and understand than german?
19:38<welshdragon>Eddi|zuHause, i did french in primary school
19:38<ln>Eddi|zuHause: hmm, what's the story of that phrase? was ist die story von die ... phrase?
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>you poor thing :p
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>ln: it's a commercial
19:39<welshdragon>they taught it alongside welsh, as they are similar languages
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>some foreign person goes into a bavarian beer garden, and reads the phrase from his phrasebook
19:39<ln>story = geschichte
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>g'schichte, actually, since it's bavarian ;)
19:39<welshdragon>un daui tri / un deux trois / one two three / ein zwei drei
19:40<welshdragon>oh bollocks ><
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>drä chänäsän mät däm känträbäß
19:42<welshdragon>oh bollocks
19:42<welshdragon>(yet again)
19:43<ln>Eddi|zuHause: hast du die visa-bahncard-werbung am fernseher gesehen, die ganz auf finnisch gesprochen ist? (vor 10 jahre, oder..)
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>three times is the charm ;)
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>ln: no, i can't remember anything like that
19:43<ln>schade. it was quite a surprise for me to see that for the first time.
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>Prost ihr Säcke!
19:44<ln>like wtf, a guy with a silly hat, a reindeer in the background, talking about Bahncard in FINNISH, on german television, subtitled in german.
19:45<welshdragon> < my french oral lesson plans
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>"Unsere Alpen sind alle _unecht_"
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19:52<ln>Bjarni: will you arrange an international openttd meeting in copenhagen?
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>"Daß [...] immer nur Bahncard [...] verstanden wird" <- that could easily be an evil play on words :p
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>"Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof." means "I don't understand _anything_."
19:55<ln>i've even heard the etymology of that
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>i've heard different ones... not all were entirely plausible, thoug...
19:59<ln>soldiers being demobilized after war, being given orders that the train home leaves from the bahnhof, and then a soldier says he's so exhausted and so that he understands only the bahnhof part of the command.
20:00*Belugas just gave a test run on OpenGfx
20:00<@Belugas>one comment : why is it so dark??
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>nobody could ever properly answer that question...
20:00<@Belugas>another comment : hell of a job been done!
20:00<ln>we are living dark times
20:01<@Belugas>ln, not in OpenTTD. and this is stupid
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>ln: well, that is one explanation... others involved people in foreign countries, or foreign people in germany, asking for something that could mean direction to the station
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>basically, any time, someone asks something that you can't understand, you give him direction to the staion, as that's the most likely place he would get what he wants
20:08<ln>this nerd guy in prison break is damn annoying.
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>i have not actually watched prison break
20:08<ben_goodger>no doubt
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20:09<Eddi|zuHause>i once recorded season 1, but i somehow lost it...
20:09<ben_goodger>can anyone advise me about pan-european value added tax law? :P
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20:09<welshdragon>whoops... crashed xchat :(
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20:10<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, it is illegal to give legal advise if you are not a certified lawyer
20:11<ln>Eddi|zuHause: so you can't say "you should call the police" when someone breaks your neighbor's windows?
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>ln: that's not legal advise
20:11<eMJay>Belugas: I gave it a shot just now, the colours are very saturated I think
20:11<ben_goodger>well, I don't want actual legal advice
20:11<eMJay>Belugas: OpenGFX that is
20:12<ben_goodger>my accountants are stumped, however :(
20:12<ln>Eddi|zuHause: oreally. :) hm, but is that like ... if you do give legal advice, the one you adviced can sue you, or the bundesrepublik can sue you?
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20:13<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, something like that...
20:13<eMJay>ln: I would assume that the one you gave advice could sue you
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20:14<Eddi|zuHause>eMJay: not only that, also someone witnessing that action can sue, or call the police...
20:14<ben_goodger>oh dear.
20:16<ln>i don't know the legal terms in english, but there are basically two kinds of crimes over here; ones where the victim has to actively do something to get the suspect sued (such as theft), and ones where the government will sue the criminal regardless of what the victim wants (e.g. murder)
20:16<ben_goodger>suing isn't related to crime here
20:16<ln>errr.. murder is not a particularly good example of *what the victim wants*
20:16<eMJay>when you say "sue" do you mean "prosecute"?
20:17<ben_goodger>things you sue for are called torts
20:17<ln>actually yes, i probably mean "prosecute".
20:17<ben_goodger>I have no idea what our terms for those are
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's actually not much different from other laws, like you have to be a certified plumber to fix the plumbing
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>or at least be employed by or employ one
20:18<ben_goodger>...but does it actually criminalise it or just make you liable for it?
20:19<ben_goodger>you can be sued for giving faulty advice here [liability], but you can be fined for giving driving instruction for money without a license [crime]
20:19<eMJay>In OpenTTD related discussion, what does contain?
20:19<ln>some sounds, i suppose.
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>eMJay: the sound effects
20:19<ln>even all the sounds.
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>like the train whistle and stuff
20:20<eMJay>is that it?
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>do you want it to be more?
20:20<eMJay>no, just wanted to be sure
20:21<eMJay>so contains the sounds for [open]ttd
20:21<ben_goodger>actually, the opposite of that usage of "right" is "I don't understand"
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>you can safely assume that i used the "wrong" usage on purpose :p
20:22<ln>Bjarni: sover du redan?
20:23<ben_goodger>very well, carry on
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni is sober? since when?
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>or do you mean "saufen", which is kind of the opposite? :p
20:24<ln>Eddi|zuHause: ich meine "sova = schlafen"
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20:33<Eddi|zuHause>no german would ever say that :p
20:34<Eddi|zuHause>in the best case, they would say "webää" :p
20:37<ben_goodger>good morning
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20:38<ln>earth to Bjarni, over
20:42<ln>now let's see, the international openttd meeting yet to be arranged, isn't it?
20:42<Sacro>lets have it in England
20:42<Sacro>like the tt-meets
20:43<ln>Sacro: but Bjarni doesn't travel to England.
20:43<Sacro>even better!
20:43<ln>well, england's fine for me.
20:44<eMJay>where about?
20:44<ln>buckingham palace.
20:44<Sacro>aye, why not
20:46<@Bjarni><ln> Bjarni: will you arrange an international openttd meeting in copenhagen? <-- no. I wouldn't know where it could be placed
20:46<@Bjarni>there are some ok places it could be, but they all cost money :(
20:47<@Bjarni>to be honest I wouldn't know there to host such a thing
20:47*Sacro wants to go
20:47*Sacro offers the use of his living room
20:48<@Bjarni>maybe in the train repair shop... it's big enough
20:48<@Bjarni>but it lacks both computers and an internet connection
20:48<Sacro>I'll even buy biscuits
20:48<ln>who needs computers and internet connection
20:48<eMJay>Is there any use of strings or templates in openttd?
20:48<Sacro>we have wifi here
20:48<Sacro>eMJay: yes
20:48<Sacro>you can't really output without strings
20:49<@Bjarni>then what is the meeting about?
20:49<eMJay>i mean string as in the class, not char*
20:49<ln>Bjarni: will you travel to england or germanyland for such a meeting?
20:49<@Bjarni>I'm not convinced I would walk to the house next door yet
20:49<ln>Bjarni: it's about meeting the people behind those nicks.
20:49<@Bjarni>since I haven't got a clue to what you are trying to do
20:49<Sacro>Bjarni: rape
20:49<Sacro>tea and cakes ven
20:50<@Bjarni>I know what Sacro intends to do
20:50<@Bjarni>I don't think I'm willing to leave the country
20:50<Sacro>Bjarni: lots of cuddles
20:50<@Bjarni>at least not at the moment
20:50<@Bjarni>I have stuff to do
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20:51<ln>Bjarni: surely you have time to leave the country for 2 or 3 days.
20:52<@Bjarni>when would that be?
20:52<ln>dunno. Q1/Q2 next year, or so.
20:52<@Bjarni>I don't know
20:53<@Bjarni>but at least I can't this year
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20:57<ln>let's meet at Tron's front yard but let's not tell him in advance.
20:57<eMJay>Ok, so are there any generics/templates in use in openttd?
20:57<eMJay>like vector or hashmap or something?
20:57<@Bjarni>ln: while it could be cool to do, I would prefer to survive
20:57<Sacro>eMJay: look at YAPF
20:58<@Bjarni>and in order to survive, I need sleep
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20:58<Sacro>ln: what is "what time is it" in french?
20:58<Sacro>Qu'elle uhr est ille"
20:58<Sacro>sounds right
20:58<Sacro>but I'm sure uhr is german
20:58<ln>sounds a mixture of german and french
20:59<ln>well, doesn't matter, probably the correc question is pronounced the same way in any case.
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21:05<ln>Quelle heure est-il?
21:05<Sacro>ah yes :)
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21:05<ln>feel free to adjust spelling to what seems best.
21:05<Sacro>Oh I do :)
21:06<Sacro>273 6/1/44 60 Clerk instructed to write to the Commanding Officer of the U.S. Forces stationed in the village drawing attention to the excessive speed with which the coloured troops drove and failure to comply to traffic signals.
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21:18<welshdragon> - number 8 - how am i meant to make it go higher?
21:18-!-fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:20<welshdragon>you do it then
21:20<welshdragon>bloody impossible to build a machine, once you've done it, post a screenie
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21:29*Sacro watches Woof on youtube
21:40*welshdragon goes to sleep
21:45<eMJay>welshdragon: I finished higher
21:55<Sacro>6pt font ftw :D
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22:37<@Belugas>eMJay, i don't know if it's the color saturation, but yes, it's darkish
22:37<NukeBuster>you are still able to turn trains while the game is paused...
22:38<NukeBuster>is that intended?
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22:39<@Belugas>i think so. why not?
22:40<NukeBuster>wouldn't that lead to desyncs when one does that while a new player is joining?
22:41<@Belugas>i don't know
22:41<@Belugas>but i doubt
22:42<NukeBuster>if you'd turn it on the right moment... would that matter for the game?
22:42<@Belugas>i think (correct if i'm wrong) that commands are still passed
22:42<@Belugas>try it, you will see :)
22:42<NukeBuster>also to the incoming client?
22:42<NukeBuster>next time someone joins i'll turn a train around
22:44<NukeBuster>probably easy to fix?
22:48<@Belugas>truely, i have no clue.
22:48<@Belugas>i'm not in networking logic
22:48<@Belugas>but, to say if it's easy to fix, one has to prove that it is broken ;)
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22:52<+glx>IIRC commands are queued during the download
22:53<@Belugas>mmh... true... i think i remember that
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23:03<@Belugas>and if it takes too long, the game cannot empty the queue fast enough and you're rejected
23:03<@Belugas>or something like that
23:07<eMJay>NukeBuster: I think you would have to be damn fast...
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 24 00:00:17 2008