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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-10-24

---Logopened Fri Oct 24 00:00:17 2008
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00:45<eMJay>hmmmm, I hope my boss doesn't mind me trawling through the openttd code instead of coding for him all day :P
00:48<Brianetta>he might
00:50<eMJay>unfortunately, if he knew, he probably would mind
00:52<eMJay>hmmmm
00:53<eMJay>segmentation fault is when I try to access memory that isn't allocated to my program right?
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 24 01:28:59 2008
---Logopened Fri Oct 24 01:29:05 2008
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03:54<dih>morning ladies
03:54<dih>i just realized something
03:55<dih>as it's not called 'patches' but 'settings'
03:55<dih>would it not make sense to change some console commands?
03:55<dih>e.g. list_patches, patch <setting> [<value>]
03:55<dih>list_settings and set <setting> [<value>]
03:56<dih>kinda some consistency missing in that place :-D
03:58-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-82-26-69-27.bmly.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
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04:01-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
04:02<@Celestar>morning
04:04-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat3.arachne.cz] has joined #openttd
04:05*Celestar can't help but notice that his 2.5" external USB driver manages to choke the 16-disk Fibre-Channel RAID6 array of his fileserver.
04:06<@Celestar>s/driver/drive
04:40<SpComb>choke?
04:40<Gekz>slow it down unbearably I'd imagine
04:41<@Celestar>aye
04:43<Gekz>it'd be like
04:43<Gekz>I CAN TRANSFER AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT
04:43<Gekz>and the USB is like "Slow down, I'm old"
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>"'n alter Mann ist doch kein D-Zug"
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>why the hell, when i search in google for "newgraphicsspecs", i get any page, except the newgraphicsspecs wiki page?
05:16<@Celestar>:P
05:16<@Celestar>Gekz: the thing is, it's the other way round. the USB drive is fast, the RAID seems slow
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05:38<NukeBuster|laptop>What information do you need for debugging a desync error?
05:38<NukeBuster|laptop>At least a save, what else?
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>desync errors are the most evil to debug, as it is necessary for server and clients to join at different times
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>so complete instructions to reproduce are a must
05:40<NukeBuster|laptop>dih's nightly server is currently constantly desynching
05:40<NukeBuster|laptop>got a save game already
05:40<NukeBuster|laptop>and when you join instant desync
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>like "start the server, let the game run for exactly 10 days, then start the client, wait for exactly 1 day, and you see a desync"
05:41<NukeBuster|laptop>hmm should try that with the save when I'm home...
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>joining a running server will not help
05:41<NukeBuster|laptop>you need to compare debug data?
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>you need to reproduce it by starting a new server, and then desyncing
05:42<NukeBuster|laptop>loading a game won't work?
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>loading a game can work, but you have to let the server run without client until the desync reason occurs
05:43<@Celestar>NukeBuster|laptop: with or withouth cargodest?
05:44<@Celestar>NukeBuster|laptop: there's quite some information on the wiki on how to debug a desync problem
05:44<@Celestar>NukeBuster|laptop: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Network/Desync_debugging
05:45<NukeBuster|laptop>latest nightly
05:45<NukeBuster|laptop>shouldn't have cargodest
05:45<NukeBuster|laptop>or didn't have it turned on
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>NukeBuster|laptop: the problem is, to debug a desync, you need to restart the server many times over with the same savegame, and the desync must happen always at the same time
05:45<NukeBuster|laptop>nasty
05:45<NukeBuster|laptop>:P
05:46<NukeBuster|laptop>are all actions timestamped?
05:46<NukeBuster|laptop>or tick stamped perhaps?
05:48<@Celestar>normally, they're not recorded at all (=
05:49<@Celestar>NukeBuster|laptop: the first thing you need to understand is what a desync is
05:50<@Celestar>so NukeBuster|laptop , what is a desync?
05:51<NukeBuster|laptop>a desync is a client that does something else then what the server does
05:52<NukeBuster|laptop>some where in time the client took a wrong turn the
05:52<NukeBuster|laptop>minus the
05:53<NukeBuster|laptop>so i thought to compare actions and check for differences
05:54<NukeBuster|laptop>?
05:54<@Celestar>NukeBuster|laptop: a desync is when the random number generator on the client returns a different result than the one on the server.
05:55<@Celestar>thus causing the game states to diverge
05:55<NukeBuster|laptop>so the random seeds are usually given out by the server?
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes, every 100 ticks or so
05:56<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: they're compared every so-and-so ticks
05:56<@Celestar>not given out
05:56<NukeBuster|laptop>so in a 100 tick timespan a desync could occur
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>no, the reason for the desync is often very long before the desync actually occurs
05:57<NukeBuster|laptop>what if you would simply rejoin the game on a desync
05:57<@Celestar>but can be milliseconds ago.
05:57<NukeBuster|laptop>or would that be annoying?
05:57<@Celestar>NukeBuster|laptop: on join, the seeds are exchanged
05:57<@Celestar>NukeBuster|laptop: we've opted not to do this, because we'd not get any desync reports then
05:57<@Celestar>a desync is a *bug*
05:58<@Celestar>which needs to be fixed
05:58<@Celestar>rejoining is a workaround, not a solution
05:58<NukeBuster|laptop>yeah thats true
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>many desyncs cannot be resovled by just rejoining the server
05:58<NukeBuster|laptop>lets hope dih saves seperate autosaves :)
05:58<NukeBuster|laptop>its probably due to 1000 trians
05:58<NukeBuster|laptop>trains
05:59<NukeBuster|laptop>and signals every tile
05:59<@Celestar>nope
06:00<@Celestar>if the client or the server is overwhelmed, that would cause a disconnect
06:00<NukeBuster|laptop>ok
06:00<NukeBuster|laptop>what about the ability to turnaround trains while in pause?
06:00<@Celestar>what about it?
06:01<NukeBuster|laptop>there were alot of traffic jams on the server
06:01<NukeBuster|laptop>would that matter
06:01<@Celestar>it shouldn't
06:01<@Celestar>it shouldn't cause the gamestates to differ
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>"it shouldn't" is why it's a bug ;)
06:01<NukeBuster|laptop>if someone joins and in pause trains turn around because they waited to long for a signal
06:01<@Celestar>;)
06:01<NukeBuster|laptop>and not 1 but alot
06:01<@Celestar>then the game states on all clients (and the server) should be identical
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>NukeBuster|laptop: throwing around wild theories won't help debugging
06:02<NukeBuster|laptop>I know, but I just wanted to know if that could lead to a desync
06:02<NukeBuster|laptop>if it happened on join
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>everything could lead to a desync
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>no, desyncs that happen on join are due to the game state not saved properly
06:03<NukeBuster|laptop>ok
06:03<NukeBuster|laptop>and once you have a poisoned server it will remain that way?
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. the server has some information that is not saved, and when the client loads that savegame, the game state is different
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes, until the server itself loads its own savegame
06:04<NukeBuster|laptop>does that happen often?
06:04<NukeBuster|laptop>and could one force that?
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>the server owner can do that
06:04<@Celestar>NukeBuster|laptop: the server is never poinsoned per definition. the server is law, all clients must have the same state as the server.
06:05<NukeBuster|laptop>choose the wrong word for it as said the server save was incorrect
06:06<@Celestar>the savegame might miss some information, or some cache (i.e. non-saved data that can be reconstructed) is faulty, or marked clean while it isn't.
06:06<@Celestar>or: some buffer overflow might have occured overwriting variables
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06:08<Gekz>wtf
06:08<Gekz>who kicked me
06:08<Gekz>at some time in the past
06:09<@Celestar>better than being kicked in the future :P
06:10<Gekz>that's not true
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could go back into the past to find your kicker and then kick him yourself :p
06:10<Gekz>Celestar: now I'm superstitious
06:10<Gekz>kick me now
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06:11<@petern>ok, i'm done
06:11<@Celestar>doing what? :P
06:11*Celestar whistles
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07:25<FloSoft>hmm path-based presignals do not work correctly?!?
07:26<@Rubidium>there's no concept of path based presignals
07:27<@Rubidium>not in the world of OpenTTD at least
07:30<FloSoft>hmm why are they placeable then?
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07:32<@Rubidium>because they might be useable in some (obscure) situations
07:32<FloSoft>okay? in which situations are they usable? if they dont work?
07:33<Brianetta>FloSoft: Describe the signal you believe to be a path based presignal
07:33<dih>:-P
07:33<Brianetta>we'll then be able to tell you what it actually is.
07:34<@Rubidium>FloSoft: a pbs junction followed by a priority merger
07:34<FloSoft>aah okay, the one with the yellow "presignal" sign on it
07:34<Brianetta>How many lights?
07:35<@petern>that's probably a one-way pbs signal
07:35<Brianetta>It is if it has three lights
07:35<FloSoft>okay i read the tooltip
07:35<Brianetta>if it has only two, it's a non-path presignal
07:35<FloSoft>its the one way pbs
07:36<FloSoft>its not very intuitive, i thought its a path-based presignal
07:36<FloSoft>because of the yellow sign
07:36<dih>wel - appart of the word 'pre' it's true :-P
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07:38<dih>yummy - cold coffee
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07:39<@Rubidium>FloSoft: then come up with a better design for the signal ;)
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07:49<FloSoft>green sign instead of a yellow one?
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07:54-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
07:58<fjb>Use the tooltip, Luke.
07:58<FloSoft>FauxFaux: yea but its not intuitive
07:58<FloSoft>you see yellow sign -> "ah presignal"
08:03<fjb>Be aware of the tab completion. It is the dark side of the IRC. Easy to use but doing odd things.
08:09<dih>:P
08:10<dih>beware - the tab-completion is coming over you!
08:16-!-yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
08:17*FauxFaux peers. ¬_¬
08:17*keyweed_ interconnects
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08:19<Gekz>tabcomplete words
08:19<Gekz>that's crazy
08:19<Gekz>but exists.
08:20<FauxFaux>I used to MUD a lot, and the clients for that tended to tab complete words; I got rather lazy. ¬_¬
08:21<Gekz>lol.
08:21<Gekz>no need to spell words anymore
08:21<Gekz>n tab ne tab tab to sp tab tab tab wo tab tab any tab tab
08:22<keyweed_>no nero to splice womanly anyway?
08:23<Brianetta>OpenOffice.org has enter to complete words
08:23<Brianetta>which is so completely brain-dead that I stare at it in horror whenever I use a new install
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08:49<dih>Brianetta: do you know erlang?
08:49<dih>www.erlang.org
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08:55<@Celestar>:S
08:56<@Celestar>Description: 4-year on site service. In Stock? No (delivery in 3-4 weeks).
08:56<@Celestar>er .. right
08:57<@Celestar>on can "service" be in stock?
08:57<@Celestar>how*
08:58<+glx>printed on paper ;)
08:59<@Celestar>yeah and it takes 3-4 weeks to print a form?
09:04<mikegrb>new delivery tech is due to be born in 3-4 weeks
09:17<dih>tüdeldü
09:20<Brianetta>dih: big nope there.
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09:32<dih>nice language :-)
09:32<dih>interesting - let me put it that way
09:34<@Belugas>no, please, don't!
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10:04<fjb>Is the improved time table patch worth a try?
10:06<@Celestar>rumor has it that it rocks
10:06<@Celestar>maybe Eddi|zuHause can tell you more
10:06<Sacro>Celestar: i doubt it, Eddi|zuHause talks nowt but rubbish :p
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10:09<dih>you are in a room with 2 guards and 2 doors, one door leads you to freedom, the other door leads you to the lions. you also know that one of the guards always tells the truth, the other guard always lies - for both facts you know, you do not know which is the door to freedom nor which is the guard that lies... you may ask one guard one question (not each guard) - find your way into freedom :-)
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10:11<@Celestar>dih: "What would your comrade say if you ask him which door leads to freedom"
10:13<@Celestar>add a question mark
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10:20<@Rubidium>now what if everything you "know" is told by the lieing guard?
10:25<yorick>then it will be one lies and one tells the truth instead of one tells the truth and one lies?
10:26<De_Ghosty>you ask them
10:26<De_Ghosty>are you dead?
10:26<De_Ghosty>the liar will say yes
10:26<De_Ghosty>the truth will say no
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10:28<+glx>both will point to the other door
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10:31<yorick>you can only ask one question ;)
10:31<@Celestar>hence you need to ask A a question that involves B
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10:36<dih>trallalla
10:36<@Rubidium>pomppieddom
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10:39<@Celestar>man building paraview is a pita :S
10:39<@Celestar>i've started about 5 hours ago
10:40<@Celestar>but as it won't build with qt4.4 (requires qt4.3) this involves a qt rebuild as well
10:40<+glx>does that mean all other stuff using qt4.4 qill break?
10:40<+glx>*will
10:42<@Celestar>glx: no, I have QT4.4 installed in /usr and qt4.3 in /usr/local now
10:42<@Celestar>and I've got to reboot in a minute because I got a kernel update too
10:43<@Celestar>man why do computers in 2008 require more babysitting than 20 years ago :S
10:43-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
10:43<keyweed_>more complexity, more possibility for fail
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10:50<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14524 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: stop-in-depot as part of orders (PhilSophus)
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10:50-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
10:50<@Celestar>heh
10:50<@Celestar>at least the system has survived a kernel update
10:50<@Celestar>> uname -a
10:50<@Celestar>Linux rivendell 2.6.25.16-0.1-default #1 SMP 2008-08-21 00:34:25 +0200 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
10:50<@Celestar>I wonder how long a version string may be :P
10:51<@petern>i686 i686 i386?
10:52<@Celestar>machine, processor, hardware platform
10:52<@petern>Linux lachesis 2.6.26-1-vserver-686 #1 SMP Wed Sep 10 19:51:11 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux
10:53<@Celestar>Linux andromeda 2.6.16.21-0.8-smp #1 SMP Mon Jul 3 18:25:39 UTC 2006 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
10:53<@Rubidium>playing the: who has the most ancient kernel game?
10:54<@Celestar>Rubidium: 2.6.16 is the kernel for SLES10
10:54<@Celestar>so my server is stuck with that
10:54<@Rubidium>"my" VPS is running 2.6.9-023stab046.2-enterprise ;(
10:55<@Celestar>can I change the current directory in irssi?
10:56<@Celestar>yeah
10:56<@Celestar>but not of the underlying shell
10:56<@Celestar>br
10:56<@Celestar>b
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10:56-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>Sysinfo for 'johannes-i': Linux 2.6.25.11-0.1-default running KDE 3.5.9 "release 49.1", CPU: AMD Athlon at 1628 MHz (3260 bogomips), HD: 1762/1784GB, RAM: 996/1010MB, 186 proc's, 7.4d up
10:57*Celestar ponders dumping the output of "hwinfo" into the channel
10:58<@Belugas>no, please, don't!
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>yay for r14524 \o/
11:01-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-82-26-69-27.bmly.adsl.virgin.net] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
11:02<@Celestar>!openttd commit 14524
11:02*Celestar sighs
11:03<@Rubidium>Celestar: you NEVER learn, do you? At least in this instance of knowledge gathering you seem to be failing quite badly ;)
11:04<@Celestar>yeah
11:04<@Celestar>apparently
11:04<@Celestar>(=
11:04*Celestar sucks
11:04<@Celestar>:P
11:04<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r14524 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2008-10-24 14:49:45 UTC)
11:04<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Add: stop-in-depot as part of orders (PhilSophus)
11:05<@Celestar>Rubidium: hence the "sigh"
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>or you could have just scrolled up two pages, if you didn't kill your client ;)
11:06<NukeBuster>Eddi... I stopped the trains and desyncs stop
11:06<NukeBuster>with the global stop all trains thingy
11:06<@Celestar>http://images.auto-motor-und-sport.de/hps/img/hxmedia/mpsams/2008/10/147TSzDb_U4lXYA_450x300.jpg <= heh
11:06<NukeBuster>started the trains again and desyncs are back
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>that only means that the desync reason does not surface anymore, not that it is gone
11:07<@Rubidium>Celestar: I like the Top Gear vehicles more ;)
11:07<@Celestar>for the police? :P
11:07<@Rubidium>yeah ;)
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: looks very... italian...
11:07<@Celestar>it only has a range of 400m :P
11:07<NukeBuster>as soon as i start all the trains again within 10 secs desync
11:08<NukeBuster>now to turn on trains 1 by one
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>NukeBuster: then start only single trains until you see a pattern
11:08<NukeBuster>:)
11:08<@Rubidium>Celestar: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Jeremy_Clarkson%27s_Top_Gear_Fiat_Police_Car.jpg
11:08<NukeBuster>saved the game first
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>then try to reproduce that pattern in a different server
11:09<Sacro>Linux desktop 2.6.27-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Oct 17 07:35:10 UTC 2008 i686 AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 6400+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
11:09<NukeBuster>have got exactly 300 trains
11:09<NukeBuster>thats quite odd
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i really hope that's the "before" picture :p
11:10<NukeBuster>hmm... seems to be ok
11:10<@Celestar>hah Rubidium :D
11:10<NukeBuster>they are all trying to get a free path at the same time that can't be good
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.polizeioldtimer.de/images/trabant.jpg
11:12<@Celestar>nice find Eddi|zuHause
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>"Höchstgeschwindigkeit: angeblich 100 km/h" :p
11:13<@Celestar>haha
11:13<@petern>yay, trabbies
11:13<@Celestar>yeah ... with a decent kick in the butt, on a downward slope with tailwind
11:13<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: Any Police-Wartburg pictures? (=
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, something like that ;)
11:13<@Rubidium>Celestar: a few inches behind a truck going 100 km/h ;)
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.polizeioldtimer.de/oldtimerseiten/unsere_polizei_oldtimer.htm
11:14<@Celestar>heh
11:14<@Celestar>I once got stopped by a hungarian police squad, driving an M5 :)
11:14<@Celestar>at around 280km/h or so
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.polizeioldtimer.de/images/wartburg.jpg
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>"Son, do you know how fast you were driving?"
11:15<@Celestar>we went 250km/h
11:16<@Celestar>but I wasn't driving
11:16<@Celestar>it was a BMW 760iL
11:16<@Celestar>my friend was "They won't catch us anyway at this speed"
11:16<@Celestar>and then they zoomed past us
11:16<@Celestar>and told us we were only to go 130km/h or something
11:17<@Celestar>and he wanted 50 EUR or so :P
11:17<@Celestar>http://www.polizeioldtimer.de/images/BMW-Isetta_500x428.jpg <= GAHAHA
11:18<NukeBuster>What things influence the random seed from the client or server?
11:18<@Rubidium>almost everything except rendering the screen and playing the music
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>the server gives out the random seed on client join, each random action is based on that seed, and yields a new seed
11:19<@Celestar>the seed is changed every time Random() is called, is it not?
11:19<@Celestar>er wait
11:19<@Celestar>well, I have to go anyway
11:19<@Rubidium>so do I, so I'm not going to wait on you ;)
11:19<@Celestar>cu tomorrow
11:20<@Celestar>:P
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11:20<NukeBuster>halfway through starting the trains
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11:28<NukeBuster>got 75% running again without desync
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>damn, i should have shown celestar this one: http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/02/10/funny-pictures-do-you-know-how-fast-you-were-going/
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12:29<bravo>afternoon gentlemen
12:29<@Belugas>hello bravo
12:30<Vikthor>evening genteman
12:33<bravo>i got a little problem, i thought you could help me here ... i am trying to try cargodest branch ... went along instructions in openttd wiki, however, when i enter command hg clone (...) to obtain code, thing gets stucked at "adding file changes" ... i cant see no progress for some 10 minutes :( (currently using debian testing unstable) ... do you not know what should i do ?
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12:34<Eddi|zuHause>the initial checkout process takes quite a while
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>just wait
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>hg does not just transfer a single checkout, it transfers the entire commit history
12:36<bravo>oh thats it !
12:36<bravo>thanks for explanation Eddi|zuHause
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12:40<@Belugas>Windows-native gui
12:40<@Belugas>he ben
12:40<@Belugas>just that
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12:51<avdg[BEnl]>hi
12:51<avdg[BEnl]>i need some help with r14508
12:52<avdg[BEnl]>i have an error while loading my execute
12:53<avdg[BEnl]>???
12:53<bravo>avdg[BEnl], i am not an expert but it might help to say what kind of error
12:53<bravo>avdg[BEnl], on what operating system you use
12:53<bravo>avdg[BEnl], people dont have the crystal balls to see your screen
12:53<ln>no, no, that would be going too much into details.
12:54<avdg[BEnl]>im in linux
12:54<ln>*i'm
12:54<Sacro>ln: *I'm
12:54<avdg[BEnl]>error while loading shared libraries: libicui18n.so.38: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
12:54<avdg[BEnl]>that's the error
12:54<bravo>avdg[BEnl], you need to install that library oboviously :P
12:55<avdg[BEnl]>why does my other versions works well?
12:55<@petern>it is part of support for rtl languages, which was only recently added
12:55<@Belugas>because it weas recently introduced
12:55-!-svippy [~svip@0x50a5b150.boanxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
12:55<avdg[BEnl]>hum... how can i get it
12:56<NukeBuster>can we get a silly english mode too?
12:56<NukeBuster>rtl english?
12:56<@Belugas>Right To Laugh
12:56<avdg[BEnl]>??
12:56<@Belugas>Random Too Low
12:57<@Belugas>Reason To Land
12:57<NukeBuster>.lost is 13 train
12:57-!-fonso [~fonso@e178089243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.7 : http://kopete.kde.org]
12:57<NukeBuster>or
12:57<avdg[BEnl]>:/ many problems... my windows is not under control :/
12:57<NukeBuster>.tsol si 13 niart
12:58<avdg[BEnl]>bored pc...
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>avdg[BEnl]: look if you can find a library called "icu"
12:59<avdg[BEnl]>where?
12:59<avdg[BEnl]>the problem is that i am on a livecd
12:59-!-svippy [~svip@0x50a5b150.boanxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit []
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>in your favourite packet manager?
13:00<frosch123>avdg[BEnl]: compile ottd yourself, it will disable icu then
13:00<avdg[BEnl]>:/ bored
13:00<avdg[BEnl]>i guess there is no compile tool on it
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>well then you should think about getting a real installation for your distribution
13:01<avdg[BEnl]>my windows is hacked by scareware :/
13:01<avdg[BEnl]>*** life
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>that's what they invented fdisk for :p
13:02<avdg[BEnl]>:/
13:02-!-svippery [~svip@0x50a5b150.boanxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>i learned that i don't need windows for anything...
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>wine has done amazing improvements in the past few years
13:03<avdg[BEnl]>yeah, but my most programs will only work at windows
13:03<avdg[BEnl]>i need to buy a big hd :/
13:03<avdg[BEnl]>and a new version of kubuntu...
13:04<avdg[BEnl]>need to try all linuxdistr again :/
13:04<avdg[BEnl]>installed all icu... doesnt work
13:07*avdg[BEnl] in shit
13:12<avdg[BEnl]>:/ i know
13:12<avdg[BEnl]>its only 3.6
13:15<avdg[BEnl]>is there no option to start without icu?
13:15<@Rubidium>avdg[BEnl]: maybe try the etch debian package instead of the lenny one?
13:18<avdg[BEnl]>im using adept atm
13:20-!-grumbel [~grumbel@i577AF4DB.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
13:20<avdg[BEnl]>:/ no windows, and no openttd...
13:21<avdg[BEnl]>i hate computers :p
13:21<avdg[BEnl]>ty anyway
13:24<@Rubidium>the debian-etch binary is linked against libicu 3.6
13:24<@Rubidium>so you could install that one instead of one of the other unixy binaries
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13:25<avdg[BEnl]>:/ still hopeless, its getting from mad to very bad...
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13:30*Rubidium got the idea he isn't heard
13:30<@Belugas>what did you said?
13:31<@Rubidium>nothing important for me ;)
13:31<avdg[BEnl]>i hate windows, i hate my old kubuntu :/
13:32<Aali>ooh, stop in depot is in trunk now?
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>what you say?
13:36<fjb>avdg[BEnl]: You hate Windows? You hate Linux? Use http://www.freebsd.org/
13:36<@Rubidium>fjb: looks too much like linux, I recommend Bob. Who can hate a dog?
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>what's this "zeta" that they always advertise in some homeshopping tv shows?
13:44-!-nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:45<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14525 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/indonesian.txt:
13:45<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-24 17:44:48
13:45<CIA-5>OpenTTD: indonesian - 412 fixed by dnaftali (412)
13:45-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host156-173-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
13:45<Wolf01>hello
13:46-!-sigmund_ [~sigmund@91.80-202-245.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
13:47<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: BeOS.
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>is that useful for anything?
13:48-!-sigmund [~sigmund@91.80-202-245.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:48<fjb>Yes, you can study moders OS design and some cool ideas.
13:49<fjb>Sadly you don't get the source.
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>i wonder if i should apply for a job at microsoft :p
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>"rinn in die organistaion und von innen uffmischen"
13:50<De_Ghosty>when is signal in tunnels!?!?1
13:50<De_Ghosty>it is the holy grail of ottd
13:51<@petern>have you written it yet?
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>De_Ghosty: stardate 129242.2, and no, it's not
13:51<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: They are too big for that plan.
13:52<De_Ghosty>writtien it
13:52<De_Ghosty>no not really
13:52<De_Ghosty>thinking about it tho
13:52<De_Ghosty>:D
13:52<@Belugas>signals just do not want to enter the tunnels. they are too big
13:52<@Belugas>i tried to push them in, but i borke the light
13:52<@petern>and scared of the dark
13:52<fjb>De_Ghosty: And one of ! or ? per sentence is enough.
13:52<De_Ghosty>no it's not
13:52<De_Ghosty>more makes it comical
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>except if you are spanish
13:52<@Belugas>so, i tried shortening the posts, the signla was not been transmitted
13:53-!-svip [~svip@0x50a5b150.boanxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: :Quit]
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>then you are allowed for an additional ¡ or ¿
13:53<De_Ghosty>is it possible to impliment rail/road building like roller coaster tycoon?
13:54<De_Ghosty>you get a magic box that goes up and down it would solve so much
13:54<De_Ghosty>imo
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>you mean ignore all those people who bitch about locomotion for using that stupid roller coaster tycoon build system?
13:54<NukeBuster>and let it act as a bridge going into the ground?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>not that i have any idea how that even works
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i don't think the build system has anything to do why signals in tunnels are not implemented
13:55-!-yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
13:55<@Belugas>De_Ghosty, this is openTTD, not Open_CLONE_EVERYTHING
13:56<De_Ghosty>lol
13:56<De_Ghosty>we should makes some tanks too :D
13:56<NukeBuster>why don't you just use trains to crash into each other...
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>you can already do that, De_Ghosty.
13:57<@Belugas>tanks...
13:57<De_Ghosty>het
13:57<De_Ghosty>at 400k pop
13:57<De_Ghosty>the city have no unpaved streets
13:57<@Belugas>hey, shold we kick/ban this warpig, guys?
13:57<NukeBuster>warmonger?
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid if i vote 'yes', it'll come back and haunt me. wouldn't be the first time :p
13:58-!-Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggstry
13:59<NukeBuster>Looky here: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Objectives
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's like one of the worst wiki pages i have ever seen...
14:01<NukeBuster>it does provide the answer
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14:03<Eddi|zuHause>to which question?
14:03<@Belugas>what?
14:04<NukeBuster>hmm.... maybe not a question but "[19:56] <De_Ghosty> we should makes some tanks too :D"
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>there isn't even a 42 on that page
14:05<De_Ghosty>lol
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>"In OpenTTD we consider certain options that affect gameplay to be patches." <- somebody should update this page :p
14:07<NukeBuster>Go ahead... its wiki :P
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause>whose wiki?
14:21<NukeBuster>openttd wiki
14:21<NukeBuster>but wiki is usually editable
14:22<Wolf01>lazyness
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>fine, you didn't get it... alright
14:22<Wolf01>;)
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>think again about what i said, and what you said. if you can tell me what i meant, we can speak again ;)
14:24<NukeBuster>I probably took it the wrong way as in owner. You probably ment who wiki is...
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'd have said "who is wiki" then...
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15:03<thingwath>Grammar police is coming for you.
15:05*Belugas hides, as he would be in their target too
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15:15*fjb pretends to not exist.
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15:58<Nite_Owl>Hello all
15:58-!-KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-102-225.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
16:00<bravo>Nite_Owl, hello
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16:03<@Belugas>Hou Hou
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16:28<Muxy>Hello Tycoon World !
16:30-!-Muxy [~Benoit@smtp.bdelalande.net] has quit []
16:30<frosch123>:)
16:30<sierra1024>:)
16:31<Nite_Owl>That was quick
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16:31<@Belugas>maybe it's the only words he knows in english
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16:34<yorick>he's shy :)
16:35<ben_goodger>good evening, fellow humans
16:36<fjb>Are you sure?
16:36<ben_goodger>tonight's obligatory quote: "The question about Obama now is whether the result will be a landslide, or whether the CIA will find some other way."
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16:39<@Belugas>in Montreal, Quebec, there was a poll : "If you were an american, who would you vote for" 88% choose Obama
16:41<frosch123>"if you were an american"? so as canadian you would decide different?
16:41<@Belugas>tricky question indeed
16:42<fjb>You don't need the CIA if you are using voting machines.
16:43<@Belugas>frosch123, i hate you! I can't pull your question out of my mind now!
16:43<DaleStan>Well, if you weren't an American, one would generally hope that you weren't planning to vote for either. Mess up our voter turnout.
16:44<frosch123>one of my colleages told me, when he was voting in bavaria the pencil was tied using a very short string
16:44<frosch123>poor belugas :)
16:44<DaleStan>Oh, wait. Never mind. We've got that quite well messed up already, albeit in the other direction.
16:46<@Belugas>hehe
16:48<@Belugas>the thing is, canadians do feel a lot concerned about what happens on the other side of the border
16:49<FloSoft>ah i found out that there is no need for pbps (path based pre signals) you can put for example for a 4 station with 2 inputs a pbs signal and he will fill the station or wait in front of it
16:53<@Belugas>shit :(
16:53<@Belugas>too much music on my card :S
16:53<@Belugas>no place for a new repo
16:54<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14526 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#2379]: make sure trains stop at the end of a station; a 3/8th length train did stop 2/8th of it's length too early causing a 63/8th long train not to fit in a 4 tile station.
16:54<@Rubidium>Belugas: looks like it's time to start using hg ;)
16:54*Belugas is scared to death to learn it!
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>there's the "'" that was missing earlier :p
16:56<@Belugas>Rubidium, it's that or it's time i make some serious cleaning on that card :)
16:56<@Belugas>way too much goodies
16:57<@petern>bigger card
16:58<@Belugas>from 4 to 8 gig :_
16:58<@Belugas>why not!
16:58-!-yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
16:59<Yexo>thx Rubidium
17:00<@Belugas>and now, ladies and gentlemen, let jsut say byebye, have a nice evening and weekend and see you on monday
17:00<@petern>enjoy
17:01<@Belugas>already started ;)
17:01-!-FloSoft [~sifldoer@g229072145.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: computer has gone to sleep]
17:01<@Belugas>Scotland's Shame is on the cell phone ;)
17:01<@Belugas>youhou
17:02*Belugas is gone
17:02<Nite_Owl>later Belugas
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17:40<vvv444>Hello ppl
17:40<vvv444>A question, is there a way finding specific waypoint by name?
17:41<frosch123>when it is part of orders, you can ctrl click the order
17:44<vvv444>No, I mean that for stations you have a list that you can find any station there by name. Is there such a list for way points?
17:44<frosch123>no, neither for buoys
17:44<vvv444>k, tnx
17:44<@Rubidium>and neither for depots
17:49<vvv444>Rubidium: Do you think it's logical adding buoys/depots/waypoints as additional 'station' types at station list? (with separate buttons)
17:50<frosch123>depots would be silly as long as you cannot rename them
17:50<vvv444>frosch123: That can be done as well :)
17:51<vvv444>I just found myself looking for some waypoint for quite a long time today, so I think this functionality can be nice to have.
17:52<vvv444>The best place I found to place it is station list. If it looks logical for people, maybe I'll implement it.
17:52<frosch123>station list is quite different as it shows ratings and waiting cargo and such
17:53<vvv444>Well, any other ideas?
17:54<frosch123>no, I hardly have any waypoints nor buoys in my games
17:55<Nite_Owl>Searchable like the sign list patch
17:56<Nite_Owl>of course you would need a list first
17:56<vvv444>Nite_Owl: Is signlist searchable?
17:57<Nite_Owl>I am fairly sure someone was working on a patch to make it so
17:57<vvv444>Well, it indeed requires list first
17:57<Nite_Owl>I think the current trunk version is just sort of scrollable
17:58<Nite_Owl>I do not use a lot of signs so I am not 100% sure
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17:59<vvv444>The best idea I came with was the station list, but since I haven't heard any supportive optinions yet, but only objection from frosch123, I will wait for more ideas before even thinking about implementing it.
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18:12<Eddi|zuHause>you really don't know how the world works :p
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>the schwabians coined the phrase "not being yelled at is praise enough"
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>(that's basically the opposite of the, in the anglo-saxon culture very common, phrase "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all")
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>but german efficiency cannot afford "sandwiching" every criticism...
18:18<Brianetta>sandwiching?
18:19<Brianetta>Wie sagt man dass, auf Deutsch?
18:19<Brianetta>das
18:19*Brianetta is sleepy (:
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: putting a critical statement between two pseudo-nice statements
18:19<Brianetta>ah right
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>which are basically only syntactic sugar to not violate the above rule
18:19<Brianetta>We have a phrase for that
18:19<Aali>soo, do banks ever close down?
18:20<Brianetta>it's related to sandwiches, in a way
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes, every day at 17:00, or 13:00 on friday
18:20<Brianetta>the first pseudo-nice statement is "buttering up"
18:20<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: close down, not close
18:21<Brianetta>Aali: Close of banking in the UK is usually at 15:30 or 16:00
18:21<@Rubidium>in Iceland they close down...
18:21<@Rubidium>and in the US too
18:21<Brianetta>In the UK they could, but it's unlikely that the current government would let them
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'm just amazed how efficient we are at not giving the answer the user wants ;)
18:21<Brianetta>The Northern Rock bank had a run from its customers, and the government nationalised it.
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>i feel almost like i'm in #mathe ;)
18:22<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: its IRC, its just how things work
18:22<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: lile Q: Is there a chance? A: Yes there is a chance ranging from (including) 0 up to and including 1.
18:23<@Rubidium>s/lile/like/
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>Q: is this the channel where you can ask questions about maths? A: no, we are a CS clan
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>and for extra amusement: A: here is our clanpage: [...]
18:24-!-amews_aj [~amews_aj@x1-6-00-0c-41-ad-29-4b.k322.webspeed.dk] has joined #openttd
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>(sadly, our "clanpage" is offline meanwhile)
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18:24<ln>i've found a certain #openttd @ oftc to be a pretty good place to ask about maths on irc.
18:25<Brianetta>Aali: When you say "do banks ever close down?" you need to be more specific, anyway. Firstly, the country is very important. Then, the type of bank.
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think he means ingame ;)
18:25<Aali>japan, and openttd bank
18:25<Brianetta>ln: Any game dev channel is good for maths questions.
18:25<ln>can't be, that would be on-topic.
18:26<ln>Brianetta: this is the only of that sort i'm on.
18:26<Brianetta>Aali: Ah. Fictitious banks. They don't seem to close down.
18:26<Brianetta>ln: Ah. I'm also on some Linux channels.
18:27<Aali>Brianetta: not ever?
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>but now for something completely different
18:27<Aali>thats a bummer
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>can i tell "svn diff" to not look for line endings?
18:27<Brianetta>Aali: Frankly, it was a bit of a surprise for somebody to be talking about the risk of a bank closing in an in-game context.
18:28<Brianetta>Aali: You can probably find out more from the wiki
18:28<Brianetta>It has pages about game mechanics
18:29<Brianetta>and newgrfs can alter the behaviour of a bank, of course
18:30<Aali>the wiki doesn't say anything about banks so i'll just assume its like any other industry
18:30<ln>Eddi|zuHause: fix the line-endings in the repository :/
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>ln doesn't help me getting a proper diff
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>+:
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18:33<Treve>hi
18:33<Treve>iemand nlN
18:33<Treve>NLN
18:33<Treve>?
18:33<Treve>sorry
18:34<Treve>nl
18:34<ln>meine damen und herren, 100% of ICE-T trains will be out of operation from now on.
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bahn650.html
18:37-!-Zuu [~Zuu@c-143c71d5.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd
18:38<Wolf01>'night
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18:40<ln>must say Treve was quite successful obfuscating his question.
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>ln: i'm pretty sure i know what he wanted to ask ;)
18:43<Treve>some 1 helpt me in my own language, but i want to link my server to irc
18:44<Treve>thats it i think :)
18:44<Treve>reading about autopilot now
18:44<Treve>looking for downloadlink ;)
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18:51<fjb>I'm thinking to object oriented for C...
18:51<fjb>too
18:51<Treve>cant find it
18:52<ben_goodger>fjb: the human _brain_is too object-oriented for C
18:52<ben_goodger>this may be why people who spend large amounts of time with it eventually go mad, like a certain kernel developer (distributed source control, indeed)
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18:53<Treve>can someone plz help me how to link my server to irc? and where to get autopilot? plz
18:53<fjb>But is using C++ for programming a microcontroller really a good idea?
18:54<vvv444>Depends on how much ROM/Flash you have and how good your compiler optimizations are.
18:54<ln>Treve is privmsging me, not good.
18:55<DaleStan>Treve: Yes. Google.
18:55<Treve>dont know who you are actually, dint know thats a prob
18:55<Treve>looking for it
18:55<Treve>but my google is teasing my i guess
18:55-!-Guest206 [~Dale@pool-71-98-67-2.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:55<DaleStan>PM is always a problem unless you know that it is not. Not the other way around.
18:55<fjb>Treve: A quick search on the next best web search engine results in: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22846
18:56<Treve>he said my name
18:56<Zuu>Treve: Also expect it to take som time, no rush.
18:56<Treve>if thats the spirit here
18:56<Treve>its nothing for me
18:56<Treve>c y
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18:57<fjb>vvv444: 256k ROM and 64k RAM. Compiler is GCC.
18:58<vvv444>architecture? 256k is quite ok. If you don't have many time critical tasks C++ can be fine (given G++ compiles well to this arch)
18:58<fjb>Architecture is ARM 7.
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18:59<vvv444>Also, it depends on how many object things you have.
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18:59<fjb>Timecritical may be a big problem. I have to use an OS with cooperative multitasking...
18:59<vvv444>I've used C++ for ARM, it was ok.
19:00<vvv444>But I think I've used IAR compiler
19:01<Zuu>Was I to hard on Treve? Just don't like when people expect that things that is completely new to them to get done instantly, without the patience to spend the time it takes.
19:01<vvv444>Well, cooperative multitasking isn't a VERY timecritical thing. By time critical I mean interrupts etc.
19:02<fjb>I guess I will stay with C for the moment and try to port some parts to C++ in a branch. I can compare the code size then.
19:02<vvv444>As I remember one of C++ weak points is vtables size.
19:02<fjb>vvv444: Cooperative multitasking makes the timing worse.
19:03<ln>Zuu: no, you weren't.
19:03<fjb>Zuu: You were not too hard. He was a bit annoying and I found what he was lokking for with 3 clicks on the next best search engine.
19:04<vvv444>fjb: These requiring ROM of course. Also, people tend factoring too much, link time optimizations are quite important.
19:04<Zuu>Better they decide to abort or spend the time than whining about it takning to long time.
19:04<vvv444>fjb: I think GCC still has problems with these.
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19:05<fjb>Thank you, I will have to experiment on a side branch then and stay with C for the main branch.
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19:06<vvv444>fjb: You're welcome, I'll be glad to hear the results :) I hope you know to use scope to measuring times? ;)
19:06<vvv444>Although on ARM you probably have a normal timer that can be used for that...
19:07<fjb>Yes, the goal is to do things in 1ms steps.
19:07<fjb>Problem is the cooperative IP stack.
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19:08*Zuu wonders why he only can find documents saying that IRC is good for deaf/hard of hearing, but no actual IRC channel/server to join. :p
19:08<vvv444>Well, that's not so terrible :) I was optimizing fixed point calculations from 20us to 3 us yestreday in my proj since these were done in interrupt :)
19:09<vvv444>Not a big fan of assembly coding though...
19:10<fjb>I fear I have to do most things in interrupt routines because that IP stack tends to hog the cpu for 3ms.
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>i'm just so glad that i don't count in that kind of speed :p
19:10<vvv444>Hmm, that's not a good thing. You better try reorganizing the IP stack code.
19:10<fjb>I hope to get away with C. Assembler is not that much fun on RISC architectures.
19:10<vvv444>fjb: indeed :)
19:11<fjb>The IP stack is part of the OS.
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>the only kind of time constraint i have is that the algorithms shouldn't be exponential :p
19:11<vvv444>No src?
19:11<fjb>Yes, source, but I would have to almost rewrite the IP stack and parts of the OS.
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19:12<vvv444>fjb: That's your chice, but doing things in interrupts isn't very nice.
19:12<vvv444>It's the shortest path to trouble.
19:13<fjb>The OS was not my choice. It is nice if you don't have to do timecritical stuff. And rewriting half of the OS gets me way beyond the time frame.
19:13<vvv444>Also, it adds access control problem, since you can have shared resources used on several priority levels.
19:14<fjb>I will see how far I get.
19:15<vvv444>Well, I hope you manage with it. Good luck!
19:17<fjb>Thank you.
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19:24<Nite_Owl>Time to feed - later all
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20:42<fjb>H, x |= 2 sets the second bit of x. But how do i clear only the second bit?
20:43<ben_goodger>null, x |= 2?
20:45<fjb>"x |= 2;" sets the second bit. But how do I clear it without clearing any other bit?
20:45<ben_goodger>oh, I see
20:45<ben_goodger>I thought H was a parameter
20:46<fjb>Sorry, was lazy typing late at night.
20:46<ben_goodger>er... perhaps "x |= 2;" again? can you AND only the second bit, with 0?
20:49<fjb>| means or, so "x |= 2;" again does not work, 1 or 1 is still 1. I don't know if I can use & with only one bit. Maybe I should go to sleep and think about it tomorrow.
20:50<ben_goodger>excellent idea
20:50<ben_goodger>I shall retire also, with a book on finance
20:51<ben_goodger>good morning to you
20:51<fjb>Hm, x = x & ^2 cound work.
20:51-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:52<Aali>fjb: x &= (binary NOT) 2
20:52<fjb>No, not ^2 but ~2.
20:52<fjb>Yes, thank you Aali.
20:52<Aali>yeah, my current setup can't do that character, apparently
20:52<Aali>dunno if its the keyboard or synergy or whatever
20:53<Aali>and x ^= 2 to toggle the bit
20:53<fjb>so "x &= ~2;" should do.
20:53<Aali>yep
20:54<ben_goodger>gah! I thought "NOT", then I thought there wasn't any such operation
20:54<fjb>Great. Still a bit late for bit flipping with C.
20:54<ben_goodger>so close to glory!
20:54<ben_goodger>night
20:54<fjb>Night ben_goodger
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 25 00:00:57 2008