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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-10-27

---Logopened Mon Oct 27 00:00:00 2008
00:11<ccfreak2k>If new signals appear after 1975, then you're probably just "missing" the old-style semaphores.
00:23<@petern>missing openttdw.grf?
00:23<@petern>or wrong version of
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00:32<solid_liq>I don't think I am
00:33<solid_liq>petern: yeah, I am missing it... where do I get that?
00:35<solid_liq>ccfreak2k: it's more than just missing signals, there are a bunch of missing icons... missing signals is the worst tho because I can't see which way they'r facing
00:35<dihedral>with your copy of openttd usually
00:35<solid_liq>dihedral: hmmm, what dir does it install to?
00:36<dihedral>start from the very beginning
00:36<dihedral>what did you download and from where
00:36<dihedral>and how can you say it's missing if you dont know where to find it?
00:37<solid_liq>hmm, dpkg shows the file, but it's not in the directory dpkg says it should be in
00:37<solid_liq>dihedral: I'm on debian sid, so I just did: aptitude install openttd
00:38<solid_liq>then copied the other .grf files over from the transport tycoon installer
00:38<dihedral>locate openttd ?
00:38<dihedral>after a updatedb
00:38<dihedral>or usually games whould be installed in /usr/games ?
00:38<dihedral>perhaps look in /usr/share/games ?
00:38<dihedral>or /usr/share/openttd
00:38<solid_liq>I see the dir just fine
00:38<dihedral>often enough there is also /usr/share/docs/<appname>
00:38<solid_liq>I mean the openttdw.grf file isn't there
00:39<dihedral>which dir
00:39<dihedral>i have mentioned about 4
00:39<solid_liq>/usr/share/games/openttd/data/
00:39<dihedral>ah
00:39<dihedral>run updatedb
00:39<dihedral>as root
00:40<solid_liq>I don't have locate/slocate/updatedb installed it looks like...
00:40<solid_liq>just a sec
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00:42<solid_liq>okay, it'll take a few minutes to build the database, I have about 400GB of files to index
00:42<dihedral>yay - welcome back self
00:42<dihedral>lol
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00:45<dih>much better this way :-)
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00:58<solid_liq>dih: okay, locate didn't find it
00:58<@petern>so it's in dpkg -L but not actually there?
00:58<dih>petern, dpkg -L should not even list the files, only the packages
01:00<dih>anyway - i am off - time to get ready to head for work
01:00<solid_liq>yeah
01:00<solid_liq>petern: yeah
01:01<solid_liq>dih: dpkg -L has always listed the files in a pkg for me... with dpkg -L openttd anyway
01:02<solid_liq>dih: you must be thinking of lowercase l
01:06<solid_liq>okay, cool, I'll restart it now and see if it's fixed :)
01:08<solid_liq>sweet! It looks a lot better now! I didn't have any animated game going in the background before when I started openttd :)
01:08<solid_liq>and the font is much better
01:08<solid_liq>thanks a lot to everyone who helped :D
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04:42<@Celestar>morning
04:43<planetmaker>good morning Celestar
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07:20*Celestar rofls
07:21<@Celestar>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzJmTCYmo9g
07:21<@Celestar>so cool
07:22<dih>tood morning Celestar
07:23<@Celestar>:)
07:23<dih>ah
07:23<dih>good
07:24<dih>:P
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07:30<welshdragon>hmm
07:30*welshdragon has a bot similar to babyottd, but is now afraid to use it
07:31<dih>lol
07:31<dih>you can in #welshdragonsbot
07:31<Brianetta>PyBorg is being worked on by my LUG
07:31<welshdragon>dih, it's in simsig
07:31<Brianetta>well, specifically, by one or two in the LUG
07:31<welshdragon>(#simsig)
07:32<welshdragon>Brianetta, is that the program you used for babyottd?
07:32<Brianetta>yes
07:32<welshdragon>aah
07:32*welshdragon is uisng http://dustyant.com/dev/deebot/
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07:37<welshdragon>http://qdb.tt-forums.net/index.cgi?action=queue - my bot is as good as any
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08:05<Brianetta>deebot isn't as pure as pyborg
08:07*Celestar sneezes
08:10<welshdragon>Brianetta, but it has a better structure for sentences
08:12<Brianetta>no
08:12<Brianetta>it has a structure
08:12<Brianetta>pyborg has no structure
08:12<Brianetta>period
08:12<Brianetta>it's pure
08:12<Brianetta>no preconceptions
08:12<Char>hmmm
08:13<Char>is there a way to keep computer enemies from behaving completely and utterly stupid?
08:13<Brianetta>it works just as well in foreign languages
08:13<Brianetta>Char: Have them stop behaving at all?
08:13<Brianetta>by enemies, do you mean competing companies?
08:14<Char>yeah
08:14<Char>i mean
08:14<Brianetta>commonly accepted wisdom is to replace AI players with human ones
08:14<Char>they build like three identical lines between a coal mine and a power plant which are 20 tiles away from each other
08:15<Brianetta>The alternative is to wait patiently for the NOAI engine to be completed, and for some decent competitors to be written.
08:15<Brianetta>Or, just play solo.
08:15<Char>hmmm
08:17<planetmaker>or get a binary from the NoAI branch :)
08:17<Char>will the new AI ever be completed? ;)
08:18<planetmaker>It's working already quite nice. And it's not _the_ - there are many around, good, better and less good ones :)
08:18<Char>but
08:18<Char>does it work for trains as well?
08:18<planetmaker>yes
08:18<Char>cause there is one AI around which just works for road vehicles
08:18<Char>and where can i get it/
08:18<Char>?
08:18<planetmaker>look in the forums General OpenTTD - noai subforum.
08:19<planetmaker>Get Yexo's Admiral AI. I guess it's one of the best and it does everything except ships.
08:20<Char>uhmmmm
08:20<Char>The NoAI framework provides an API to write your own AI. AI's can be written using squirrel. Currently, it's not possible to build rails/trains, but that will come at some point in the future.
08:20<Char>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=37956
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08:23<Brianetta>planetmaker: Some admiral.
08:23<planetmaker>Char: that's an old posting. Search for admiral AI.
08:24<planetmaker>Brianetta: how do you mean?
08:25<Brianetta>planetmaker: Look up "admiral" in a dictionary.
08:26<Char>??
08:26<planetmaker>... and?
08:26<Char>well
08:26<Char>i found what i need i guess
08:26<Brianetta>"...and it does everything except ships."
08:27<@Celestar>"13:18 < planetmaker> Get Yexo's Admiral AI. I guess it's one of the best and it does everything except ships." <= trains too?!
08:27<planetmaker>yes.
08:27<@Celestar>awesome
08:27<planetmaker>indeed :)
08:27<@Celestar>I want to see it :P
08:27<@Celestar>but I've got to head to a meeting in a few
08:27<planetmaker>look through the thread, it has images :)
08:27<Brianetta>Perhaps you should look up irony, too, because an AI called "Admiral" that can do everything but ships is deeply ironic.
08:27<Gekz>hha
08:27<planetmaker>oh... :)
08:27<Char>i just downloaded it
08:27<Char>seems to be pretty nice
08:28<planetmaker>k, missed that one :)
08:28<planetmaker>but airforce also uses admirals, no?
08:30<planetmaker>And I think its origin is in a plane-only AI.
08:30<@Rubidium>who noai's about naming things completely opposite
08:30<@Rubidium>s/who/whole/
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08:31<@Celestar>I gotta go
08:31<@Celestar>cu later today
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08:32<Char>hmmm
08:33<Char>no, i guess airforce does not have admirals
08:33<@Rubidium>they're called (air) marshals in the airforce
08:35<Char>how do i choose the AI to be used?
08:38<planetmaker>Rubidium: the creator of AdmiralAI obviously chose a mis-leading name then :) . At least in German language we have admirals in the airforce, too - so I guess it might be the same in aviation in the Netherlands, too.
08:38<keyweed_>nope
08:39<keyweed_>http://www.allesopeenrij.nl/index.html?page=http://www.allesopeenrij.nl/lijsten/krijgsmacht/luchtmacht_rang.html
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08:40<Brianetta>planetmaker: airforce uses sky marshal or general (depending whether it's commonwealth or US), never admiral
08:41<Char>weird
08:41<Char>i cannot get the AI to do anything
08:41<Char>actually i cannot even get it to start a company
08:41<Char>ah
08:41<Char>now it works
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08:41<keyweed_>it was waiting for just the right moment
08:41<planetmaker>I also erred with the German ranks :)
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08:46<fjb>Hello
08:47<Char>wow
08:48<Char>i wonder how a local authority of a city can think "very good" of a transport company if all it does is steering literally hundreds of coal trucks through the city centre.
08:49<dih>by bribing
08:49<dih>by planting a bunch of trees around the town
08:49<dih>various possibilities
08:49<Char>no
08:49<Char>its a computer player
08:50<Char>and no, the computer player did not place shitloads of trees
08:50<Gekz>I wonder why a city cares about the transferring of goods from one place to another
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08:50<dih>Char: the ai cheats
08:50<Char>;)
08:50<dih>it does
08:50<dih>seriously
08:50<@Rubidium>dih: the noai AIs don't
08:50<dih>how should i know which ai Char is talking about
08:51<Char>and i wonder why the admiralAI i have here builds lots of train stations but never connects them
08:51<@Rubidium>dih: by reading the context?
08:51<dih>if he's chatting up in this channel i assume it's the current ai
08:51<dih>not the noai branch :-P
08:51<dih>true
08:51<dih>that would be a good point
08:51<dih>still i thought that was the reason you guys had an extra channel :-P
08:52<@Rubidium>so there isn't any OTTD talk in #tycoon?
08:52<dih>i dont know - i never visit that channel
08:52<Brianetta>Rubidium: They tut and sigh when we try it
08:53<Brianetta>#tycoon is an extension of the off-topic forum, as far as I can tell.
08:53<dih>:-P
08:53<Char>sorry for speaking in the wrong channel btw :P
08:54<dih>Char: if you really were i think the devs would have mentioned it
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09:24<@Belugas>hello evryone
09:24<dih>hello Belugas
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09:26<@Belugas>hey dih :)
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11:44<@Celestar>man .. nested screens are evil
11:44<@Belugas>birds nesting on your screens is even worse
11:46<@Celestar>..
11:47<@Celestar>and I wish people on the supercomputer would FINALLY learn how to use the queueing system :S
11:47<@Celestar>and not put 96-CPU jobs into the max-8-CPUs-job queue
11:48<@petern>heh
11:48<@Celestar>because there are currently > 120 jobs in that queue marked as "ERROR"
11:49<@Celestar>some of them for a fortnight already.
11:49<@Celestar>apparently people really really need that data badly
11:49<planetmaker>:D
11:50<@Celestar>note: of these 120 jobs, about 100 are from only 4 different people (accounts)
11:50<planetmaker>There's two things which are infinite: human stupidity and the universe. I'm not sure about the latter.
11:50<planetmaker>(Einstein)
11:50<@Celestar>I know :D
11:50<planetmaker>I would have been surprised if you didn't :)
11:50<@Celestar>lol
11:51*Celestar bows
11:51<@Celestar>heh. AdmiralAI looks really awesome
11:51<planetmaker>people in your business know that quote generally :)
11:52<planetmaker>yeah, looks awesome :)
11:52<@Celestar>I wish my advisor would understand a BIT about what I am doing :S
11:53<@Celestar>s/understand/care
11:53<planetmaker>:S
11:53<@Celestar>he *just* discovered that he sent me on a conference next week for which we have NOTHING up to now
11:54<@Celestar>he dicoveres this about every other week for two months now
11:55<@Celestar>first item on every meeting: "Remind professor who you are and what you do"
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11:57<@Celestar>so when do we integrate cargodest, IS and noAI into trunk? :P
11:57<+glx>NoAI depends on NAIL
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11:57<@Celestar>there was also some question about crossing bridges on the forum, what about them?
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12:01<@Celestar>because they'd be fun :P
12:02<Aali>crossing bridges? just give me diagonal bridges
12:03<@Celestar>diag brides are hell to code
12:03<@Belugas>yeah
12:03<@Belugas>in fact, they even may give us problem with the map
12:03<@Belugas>not to mention the blatant lack of gfx
12:03<@Celestar>not so crossing bridges
12:04*Belugas nods
12:04<Aali>thats up there with signaled bridges, eh
12:04<@Celestar>in fact, crossing bridges just work
12:04<@Belugas>that's another story...
12:04<@Celestar>(at least they did when last I checked)
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12:05<+glx>they just look ugly
12:05<@Celestar>yeah
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12:05<@Celestar>that's why I have disabled them
12:05<@Belugas>nice boy
12:05<@Celestar>but if memory serves, that's the only reason :P
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12:06<@Celestar>so IF we have nice grfs for crossing bridges, we could put them in
12:06<@Celestar>so where are our designers ?
12:06<@Rubidium>#ttdp.graphics ?
12:06<@Belugas>they are busy with opengfx :)
12:06<@Celestar>:P
12:06<@Celestar>Belugas: with the graphics or the license?
12:07<@Celestar>(=
12:07<@Belugas>dunno
12:07<@Belugas>totally dunno
12:07<@Rubidium>they appear to have eliminated all but one license
12:07<Sacro>or just masturbating frantically over blender
12:07<@Celestar>lol
12:07<@Celestar>Rubidium: which one is that one?
12:07*Rubidium imagines a will it blend: OpenTTD and OpenGFX
12:08<@Celestar>CA-SS-DA-ZR-SDF GTI Quattro 16V ?
12:08<Sacro>Celestar: TDi?
12:08<@Rubidium>Celestar: GPL-2
12:08<@Celestar>Rubidium: isn't that what has been suggest like a decade ago?
12:08<@Celestar>Sacro: sorry, I forgot :P
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12:12<@Celestar>would it be possible to add some flag to a NewBridge that signalls whether sprites for crossings are present?
12:13<@Rubidium>Celestar: http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=novell <- for the admins
12:14-!-Eddi|zuHause3 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
12:16<@Celestar>Rubidium: LOL
12:16<@Celestar>where's the liquid coming from?
12:16<@Rubidium>the red bull ofcourse
12:16<@Celestar>oh
12:16<@Celestar>right :P
12:16<@Celestar>forgot :P
12:18<+glx>nice result
12:18<@Rubidium>you should watch the rake episode too
12:20*Celestar watches his data
12:20<Ammler>suse :-)
12:23<@Celestar>..
12:23<@Celestar>the DVB-C receiver crashed again
12:24*Celestar goes rebooting it
12:24<Sacro>hmm, no -C in this city :(
12:24<@Celestar>sucks anyway
12:25<@Celestar>-S is better
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12:28*Celestar forgets his data and goes watching SG-1
12:28<@Rubidium>that's like ancient or depending how you look at it: not ancient ;)
12:28<@Celestar>er ?
12:28<@Celestar>what is?
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>"Füße hoch! Flachwitz!" :p
12:29<@Celestar>hm
12:29<@Rubidium>Celestar: SG-1 is ancient (based on date-of-broadcast), although Atlantis has to do with ancients
12:30<@Celestar>heh
12:30<@Celestar>dunno what episode it is
12:31-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F5F9AA.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
12:34*Rubidium votes for: one I have already seen ;)
12:34<@Celestar>heh
12:34<@Celestar>Rubidium: the typical "Attack first, ask questions later"-scheme
12:35<@Rubidium>that's all what stargate's about
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>i thought about cheap costumes and random references to various mythologies
12:38<@Rubidium>it's just a series of mythologies in a more modern coat
12:38<@Celestar>but I like it anyway
12:38<@Celestar>it's one of the better shows on german TV
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13:13<@Celestar>bbl
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13:46<Sacro>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7693386.stm
13:48<FauxFaux>Pwnt.
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14:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14539 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
14:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-27 18:43:26
14:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: dutch - 5 fixed by habell (5)
14:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: french - 5 fixed by glx (5)
14:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: galician - 5 fixed by Condex (5)
14:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: ido - 31 fixed by Cecile (31)
14:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: indonesian - 50 fixed by dnaftali (50)
14:44<planetmaker>quick question: where do I look, if the game asserts on changing a setting? (openttd.cpp:143)
14:44<planetmaker>I kind of fail to find a place... :S
14:44-!-Burty [burty@92.18.180.70] has joined #openttd
14:44<Burty>hey Everyone
14:45<planetmaker>*advanced setting
14:45<@Rubidium>planetmaker: you could start by using gdb
14:45<planetmaker>I feared that answer :D
14:46<planetmaker>I guess time to really get to know gdb a bit better...
14:46<@petern>and a non-stripped build
14:46<planetmaker>hm... what are the compile options for that?
14:47<@Rubidium>./configure --help ?
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14:47<Wolf01>hello
14:47<planetmaker>... --enable-debug :)
14:54<welshdragon>you want to debug Wolf01?
14:54<Wolf01>I might need it
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15:05<@Celestar>\o
15:07<dih> /
15:08<dih>\/\
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15:08<dih>ops
15:08<dih>gnah
15:09<@Celestar>?
15:09*Celestar blinks
15:10<ben_goodger>schwaff!
15:10<@Belugas>never mind him, he's our usual clown ^_^
15:10<ben_goodger>:)
15:10-!-Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd
15:11<@Celestar>hey AI dev :)
15:11<@Belugas>who? Me? I ain't
15:12<@Celestar>no Yexo
15:13-!-welshdragon [~vista@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:13<Yexo>hello Celestar
15:13<@Celestar>sda 3.00 0.50 87.00 253.00 58880.00 151019.50 29440.00 75509.75 617.35 6.01 19.11 2.03 69.00
15:13<@Celestar>sdb 0.00 0.00 1.50 7.50 12.00 49.50 6.00 24.75 6.83 0.14 15.78 5.56 5.00
15:13<@Celestar>sdc 0.00 0.00 107.50 78.50 89964.00 74188.50 44982.00 37094.25 882.54 2.14 11.53 2.67 49.60
15:13<@Celestar>how this is what I call I/O :)
15:14<Yexo>what are all those numbers?
15:14<FauxFaux>Large.
15:14<ben_goodger>Celestar: you forgot the column titles
15:14<@Celestar>yeah
15:14<@Celestar>Device: rrqm/s wrqm/s r/s w/s rsec/s wsec/s rkB/s wkB/s avgrq-sz avgqu-sz await svctm %util
15:14<@Celestar>here they are (=
15:14<ben_goodger>ah, yes, that's much more useful o.o
15:15<@Celestar>r = read, w = write
15:15<@Celestar>:P
15:15<ben_goodger>well, yes
15:15<ben_goodger>avgqu-sz is a bit more subtle
15:15<ben_goodger>as is svctm
15:15<@Celestar>rrqm/s avgqu-sz The average queue length of the requests that were issued to the device.
15:16<ben_goodger>ah
15:16<@Celestar>http://linux.die.net/man/1/iostat
15:16<@Celestar>here :)
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15:17<ben_goodger>thank yo
15:17<@Celestar>Yexo: I'd like to test your AI soon. what do I need?
15:17<Yexo>admiralai.tar and a noai build
15:17<Yexo>binaries at openttd.org/download-noai
15:18<@Celestar>k
15:18<@Celestar>any newGRFs possible/recommended?
15:18<Yexo>all should work
15:18<@Celestar>awesome
15:18<Yexo>so just your favourite combination :)
15:18<@Celestar>:D
15:19<Yexo>although the 2ccset may give some problems because the building cost are really high, I suggest to put parameter 0 to 1 or 2 (sandbox or easy mode)
15:19<@Rubidium>Celestar: and if it doesn't work you can flame him ;)
15:19<@Celestar>heh
15:19<@Celestar>ok
15:19<@Celestar>I shall
15:19*Celestar hands out some asbestos suits :P
15:20*ben_goodger is hospitalised due to asbestosis
15:21*Celestar slaps ben_goodger "You are supposed to read the iostat man page, not to end up in hospital"
15:21<ben_goodger>you gave me an asbestos suit, dammit
15:22<@Celestar>oh right
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15:22<@Celestar>:P
15:22<@Belugas>not the same as an albatros that sues you
15:23<Yexo>Celestar: What is the status of cargodest? How long before it can hit trunk?
15:23<@Celestar>Yexo: there's some problem with refits mainly, but I cannot continue development for the next 7 days.
15:23*Rubidium likes the name of the town where they used to make asbestos products in the NL: "Goor" (in english: dirty/squalid)
15:23<@Celestar>Yexo: after that, it will hopefully go very fast. you want to code AdmiralAI for cargodest? ;)
15:24<Yexo>I've already done a big part for that
15:24<@Rubidium>okay... seven days have past ;)
15:24*Celestar takes Rubidium's starship away
15:25*Rubidium just hit a solar flare ;)
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15:27<Aali>will AI's ever have support for IS?
15:27*Celestar points at Yexo
15:27<@Celestar>I think they will
15:27<Yexo>infrastructure sharing?
15:27<Aali>yes
15:27<Yexo>as soon as such a patch is in trunk I'll code support for it
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15:33<Aali>i really hope it does get into trunk
15:33<@Celestar>I'll try to see to it :)
15:33<Aali>the only reason i'm not playing NoAI is that it would be a pain in the ass to merge it with my other patches
15:34<@Celestar>would it? why?
15:35<Yexo>noai merges with cargodest with only 3 (very small) failed blocks
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15:36<Aali>i dont play cargodest
15:36<@Celestar>cargodest + IS is a killer combo
15:37<@Celestar>:)
15:38<Yexo>Aali: NoAI changes only a few things in 'trunk code'. Most of the code is in the ai/ directory so doesn't create conflicts with other patches. I was trying to point that out by giving cargodest (not a small patch) as example
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15:38<Aali>Yexo: hmm, i might just give it a try then
15:40<planetmaker>[20:36] <Celestar> cargodest + IS is a killer combo <-- very much so. But the current patch is broken and buggy.
15:40<planetmaker>:( And I'm too bloody stupid to fix it.
15:40<@Celestar>:(
15:40<@Celestar>planetmaker: I'll help at some point
15:41<planetmaker>:)
15:41<Aali>Yexo: but it wont be using IS automagicly, right?
15:41<Yexo>the current patch is buggy?
15:41<yorick>planetmaker: lazy*
15:41<Yexo>Aali: no
15:41<planetmaker>Yexo: yes. It got some problems in the latest versions.
15:41<Yexo>I had the impression it worked pretty well, but I haven't tried it myself lately
15:42<Aali>which is better than nothing but still not great
15:42<planetmaker>And it's buggy. It asserts, when I enable per-company support :O
15:42<planetmaker>Yeah. lately is the thing :)
15:42<planetmaker>I've the definite feeling it's beyond my current c/c++ ability.
15:42<Yexo>I might give it a go
15:42<planetmaker>was ok, 1k revisions ago.
15:42<Aali>planetmaker: i haven't had any problems with it, i never use per-company settings though
15:43<planetmaker>And currently waypoints don't block competitors trains anymore, either. No idea why.
15:43<Aali>wasn't that considered a bug and "fixed" by some guy?
15:43<Yexo>Does (a proper implemented) IS have any chance of going into trunk?
15:44<planetmaker>well - not that I know :)
15:45<@Celestar>Yexo: that depends what the team decides upon (=
15:45<planetmaker>Some people may consider it a bug. I consider that a feature: you can reserve some tracks for your exclusive usage.
15:46<yorick>it needs a separate thing, I think
15:46<@Celestar>Yexo: and on Rubidium's opinion, really
15:46<Yexo>Celestar: of course, but fixing IS might be (probably is) a lot if work, so I'd like to hear some opinions about that before starting to work on something that'll never hit trunk anyway
15:47<fjb>Hm, is blocking waypoints really a good idea? I'm often using waypoints on my networks.
15:47<@Celestar>I'm using them too
15:47<@Celestar>not often, but here and there
15:47<Aali>and you can still keep a separate network not connected to anyone elses
15:47<fjb>Waypoints would block half of my network...
15:47<Aali>unless you're sharing depots, of course
15:48<planetmaker>Yexo: quite probable not in the current implementation
15:49<planetmaker>Celestar made a number of quite good comments on the current patch... Even I understand them :P
15:50<planetmaker>I implemented some, but the big ones... alas.
15:50<@Celestar>:P
15:50<planetmaker>[20:47] <Aali> and you can still keep a separate network not connected to anyone elses <-- that's not always an option :)
15:51<planetmaker>I agree though, that abusing waypoints is hackish.
15:51<@Celestar>very
15:51<planetmaker>But IMO the patch needs the possibility to block competitors using certain of your tracks
15:51<@Celestar>yes
15:51<planetmaker>But I didn't find another easy solution; the current is a hack for wwottdgd/2
15:52<Aali>yeah, of course, ideally you would want some kind of company signals
15:52<planetmaker>yeah. Something.
15:52<Aali>or company markers or whatever
15:52<planetmaker>Another nice thing would allow access on a per-station basis than general
15:52<Yexo>I think it should be the other way around: by default disallow and have some sort of waypoint that allows opponents train to enter your network
15:52-!-Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.]
15:53<@Celestar>hm
15:53<@Celestar>this needs further discussion
15:53<planetmaker>Yexo: default is no sharing at all :)
15:53<planetmaker>if you allow, you allow general access.
15:53<Yexo>and I think you should be able to allow only on certain parts of the network
15:53<Aali>Yexo: that would be hard to implement though, since you would have to keep track of where a shared segment starts/ends
15:54<planetmaker>Yexo: that's why I implemented the waypoint hack: easily place one at the entry of the no-go-area and you're done
15:54<Aali>opt-out is a lot easier to handle, code-wise
15:54<@Celestar>yes
15:54<@Celestar>much
15:54<Yexo>Aali: it's not, you only have to keep track of who's train it is and who's track it is.
15:54<planetmaker>yexo: code-wise it's much easier to define blocking tiles
15:54<planetmaker>than make it a tile property
15:55<@Celestar>er go for it step-by-step.
15:55<Yexo>sure, blocking tiles are easier, but certain allow-tile are not too hard either
15:55-!-Char [~Ich@d83-180-230-106.cust.tele2.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:55<@Celestar>the opt-out thingy can be added later on
15:55<planetmaker>the idea of "company signals" is one which isn't bad IMO.
15:55<planetmaker>full ack
15:55<planetmaker>a first step would be just allow sharing, even without company settings IMO
15:56<planetmaker>just a switch yes/no and setting global fees.
15:56<planetmaker>2nd ist customization
15:56<planetmaker>3rd is advanced stuff like local access control and per-company access
15:57<@Celestar>*nod*
15:58<@Celestar>a separate hg repo would be handy methinks
15:58<rortom>hi all
15:58*planetmaker has seperate hg repo
15:58<@Celestar>good (=
15:58<rortom>has the nightly of yesterday a desync bug?
15:58<rortom>cause its desyncing all the time :|
15:58<planetmaker>rortom: changed any grf?
15:59<rortom>i used the openttdcoop GRF
15:59<Yexo>rortom: does it also desync after loading a savegame on the server?
15:59<planetmaker>as compared to before?
15:59<rortom>from one savegame
15:59<planetmaker>rortom: that's not an answer :) Some of the grfs may desync under certain cirucumstances
15:59<rortom>it ran quite fine for ~50 game years
16:00<rortom>i thought the openttdcoop guys only use stable grfs?
16:00<rortom>*sets
16:00<planetmaker>well. Yes. But you never know :)
16:00<planetmaker>And it's not always the fault of the grfs :P
16:00<rortom>mh, true :\
16:01<planetmaker>so: do you use other grfs than before? And if so: which?
16:01<rortom>i started the server yesterday, not used before
16:01<rortom>i can give you a GRF list if you want
16:01<planetmaker>sure :) URL?
16:02-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
16:02-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
16:02<planetmaker>does it desync with an older version?
16:02<rortom>im about to test
16:03<rortom>http://pastebin.com/m5e327ad1
16:05-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F5F9AA.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
16:05<rortom>its a shame that the protocol cannot detect why it desyncs :(
16:05<@Bjarni>how would you get it to detect why it desyncs?
16:05<planetmaker>rortom: try to disable suburban houses and give it another try.
16:06<planetmaker>just a random idea.
16:06*Sacro is playing OpenTTD
16:06<@Bjarni>it makes a checksum of the stuff in the game and compares the checksum
16:06<rortom>Bjarni: exatcly, thats the problem ;)
16:07<rortom>planetmaker, thanks for the tip :D
16:08<planetmaker>forget what I said. it's stations, not houses what you have :)
16:09-!-Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B751EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:10<@Bjarni>how would you fix this?
16:10<@Bjarni>I mean how would you make it detect what went wrong?
16:10<@Bjarni>I can imagine something but it would create way too much traffic
16:10-!-iwein [~iwein@ipgw-nl.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
16:10<@Bjarni>like transmitting the whole savegame every tick
16:10<@Bjarni>rortom: do you fancy some coding?
16:10<@Bjarni>like making a feature that makes a savegame right away if a game desyncs
16:10-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B751EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:10<Yexo>planetmaker: Is the patch posted by Thief^ the latest is patch?
16:10<SpComb>Bjarni: send absolute info, not deltas
16:11<@Bjarni>it should be done at the same tick on both server and client though so I don't know if it's possible to get the timing right
16:11<SpComb>but myes, it's a bit silly with a TCP-based network protocol
16:11<SpComb>desyncs are bugs
16:11<planetmaker>Yexo: yes. I've locally a bit different, but not really different.
16:11<@Bjarni>but it would be nice to have the savegames to compare when it goes wrong :)
16:11<planetmaker>It's a bit better wrt coding style :)
16:11<rortom>mhm
16:11<rortom>i have no idea what would be the best solution
16:12<planetmaker>I can pm you, if you like.
16:12<@Bjarni>9 lines during 1 sec o_O
16:12<rortom>but it would be great to have to identify the source
16:12<rortom>sure
16:12<@Bjarni>somehow I think it was because the internet lagged and stored all the packages in the router or something :/
16:13<planetmaker>actually. My local copy, Yexo, now applies to current trunk
16:13<planetmaker>the old one doesn't
16:14<Yexo>planetmaker: can you upload that somewhere?
16:14<Aali>planetmaker: are you the one maintaining the IS patch?
16:15<planetmaker>Aali: well. Trying to is the better phrase. Yes, I'll upload in the IS thread.
16:15<Aali>planetmaker: i see
16:15<Aali>and no-one is really working on it?
16:16<Yexo>Aali: I'm going to do some work on it now, see if I can improve it a bit
16:16<Aali>awesome
16:17<Aali>as long as it doesn't die out
16:17<Aali>that'd be a shame
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16:17<@Bjarni>rortom: if you desync all the time, then hack the source to make an uncompressed savegame every tick on both server and client
16:17<planetmaker>Yexo: posted http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=739613#p739613
16:18<@Bjarni>then you can compare the savegames and figure out the difference
16:18<planetmaker>Nice that you'll have a look, Yexo :)
16:18-!-XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@members.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish]
16:18<Yexo>I won't promise any results :p
16:19-!-nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:19<@petern>Bjarni, and then try to figure out why the difference...
16:19-!-XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@vs241204.vserver.de] has joined #openttd
16:19<planetmaker>yexo: so did I - it worked for a few months :)
16:19<@Bjarni>yeah... this could take a while
16:20<@Bjarni>but you have the answer
16:20<planetmaker>you've more experience than me though. So... :)
16:20<@Bjarni>no guesswork... just hardcore savegame decoding
16:20<ln>is it recommended to use MS Comic Chat on this channel?
16:20<@Bjarni>nothing named "MS*" is recommended :P
16:21-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@p549725CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:23<@Bjarni>actually savegame decoding is not as tricky as you might think
16:23<rortom>mh, phone :\
16:23<yorick>it is not at all as tricking as you might think
16:23<yorick>tricky*
16:23-!-fonso [~fonso@e178110058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
16:24<@Bjarni>but using uncompressed savegames helps a lot :)
16:24<yorick>you could just uncompress them...
16:24<@Bjarni>you could start by using something like diff to figure out what difference you have
16:24-!-vvv444 [~vvv444@89-138-176-73.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #openttd
16:25<@Bjarni><yorick> you could just uncompress them... <-- yeah, but compressing a savegame every tick would demand a fast CPU
16:25<yorick>saving an uncompressed savegame every tick would demand some hd speed
16:25<@Bjarni>yeah
16:25<planetmaker>he :P
16:26<@Bjarni>don't do it on a remote drive
16:26<yorick>@calc 30*74
16:26<@DorpsGek>yorick: 2220
16:26<@Bjarni>and you shouldn't use too big maps either
16:26<yorick>ooh
16:26<yorick>that requires some hd space
16:26<yorick>every second
16:27<planetmaker>74 ticks per second?
16:27<Wolf01>'night
16:27-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host156-173-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:27<yorick>yes
16:27<@Bjarni>don't use fast forward :P
16:27<planetmaker>:P
16:28<Yexo>isn't it 30 ticks per second and 74 ticks per ingame day?
16:28<yorick>hm
16:28<yorick>you have a point
16:28-!-iwein [~iwein@ipgw-nl.telfort.nl] has quit [Quit: iwein]
16:28<@Bjarni>as I said: it's demanding, but once you got the savegames it will be a whole lot easier to figure out why it desyncs
16:28<planetmaker>90MB/s is a lot for current PCs, too. I doubt that most will cope.
16:29<@Bjarni>I did this even on the old computer
16:29<@Bjarni>the trick is to limit the size of the map
16:29<Yexo>if you know when it desyncs, you don't have to save the savegames for a long time, and of course a lot can be cached in ram
16:29<@Bjarni>and not having 65k vehicles
16:29<@Bjarni>*64k
16:29<planetmaker>you only need to save one savegame: when the sync check gives you a true.
16:29<@Bjarni>yeah
16:30<planetmaker>but then you better have both: server and client :)
16:30<Yexo>that's only enough if you enable syncs checks every tick
16:30<planetmaker>but maybe via a new docommand :)
16:30<@Bjarni>only having the client would make little sense
16:30<yorick>Yexo: you want to store 30 savegames each 30 mb in ram every second?
16:30<planetmaker>no need to store uncompressed.
16:31<Yexo>yorick: why 30mb each?
16:31<@Bjarni>no time to compress that amount of data
16:31<yorick>you mean yu can compress 30 savegames each second?
16:31<@Bjarni>30 mb sounds like a lot
16:31<Yexo>depending on map size
16:31<Yexo>but still 30mb sounds very big
16:31<@Bjarni>are you sure you aren't using some huge map/game?
16:31<planetmaker>still. 90% compression is hardly feasable with any data.
16:31<yorick>30mb is 2048x2048
16:31<planetmaker>which is oversized
16:31<Yexo>just don't do desync debugging on that big maps :)
16:32<@Bjarni>how many times do I have to say that you should use a "small" map?
16:32<@Bjarni>I did it on a 256x256 map
16:32<@Bjarni>and I didn't have any problems saving it on an old and slow HD
16:32<yorick>you need your reproduceable desync to fit on a 256 map
16:33<planetmaker>which should be no problem
16:33<@Bjarni>then you better get started making such a game
16:33<@Bjarni>if it's a bug that happens most of the time it should be fairly easy to trigger it
16:33<planetmaker>^^^
16:33<@Bjarni>3 eyes?
16:34<@Bjarni>are you a mutant?
16:34<@Belugas>that's his nose, up in the air!
16:35<@Bjarni>mutant nose :/
16:35<yorick>he has a pointy nose
16:35<rortom>so
16:35<rortom>what about blackbox testing
16:35<@Bjarni>which means....
16:35<@Bjarni>A WITCH!
16:35<@Bjarni>burn him!
16:35<rortom>start client and server with certain GRF settings
16:35<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: A pointy nose doesn't make him a witch.
16:35<rortom>when it desyncs, diff the savegames
16:36<Prof_Frink>Fetch the duck!
16:36-!-fjb [~frank@p5485FC9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:36<yorick>Prof_Frink: witchducks!
16:36<yorick>burn them
16:37-!-fjb [~frank@p5485FC9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:40-!-yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has left #openttd [Poef!]
16:40<@Bjarni>maybe it would be a good idea to write code to enable one savegame every tick instead of writing code for it every time it's needed
16:41<@Bjarni>we should just disable it with ifdef unless we actually need it
16:41<SpComb>tick........... tick............ tick............
16:42<@Bjarni>I always knew that SpComb would be a ticking bomb
16:42*SpComb defuses
16:42<@Bjarni>however I thought mentally unstable bombs were actually silent until they blow
16:43<planetmaker>hehe. Got a 3rd additional artificial eye.
16:43<planetmaker>and no need to burn me. The devil likes fire :P
16:43<planetmaker>Mephisto ... hehehehe :)
16:44<@Bjarni>so you are a mutant
16:44<planetmaker>sure :)
16:44<@Bjarni>NO MUTANTS ALLOWED
16:44-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:44<planetmaker>We are borg. Resistance is futile
16:44<@Bjarni>http://www.nma-fallout.com/ <-- so you can never visit this server :P
16:45<@Bjarni>something is wrong
16:45<planetmaker>lool. Obviously I could, though :)
16:45<@Bjarni>looks like my DNS died :(
16:45-!-planetmaker was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [You did not resist much!]
16:45-!-planetmaker [~pm@vs241204.vserver.de] has joined #openttd
16:45<planetmaker>looking at it, my desire to lurk there is quite low, though
16:45<@Bjarni>no webpages works for me right now
16:45<planetmaker>:D
16:46<@Bjarni>I haven't looked at that page for ages... I just remembered the name and thought it would fit this context quite good
16:46<planetmaker>:)
16:47<planetmaker>I never knew that ^^should denote the number of eyes... irc is strange.
16:48<@Bjarni>it's not IRC only
16:48<planetmaker>I should get some RL foooood :)
16:48<@Bjarni>it's a smiley
16:48-!-FR^2 [~frquadrat@oscar.frquadrat.de] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by caffein depletion...]
16:48<planetmaker>I'm a smiley analphabet, too :)
16:48<+glx><@Bjarni> maybe it would be a good idea to write code to enable one savegame every tick instead of writing code for it every time it's needed <-- like configure --enable-desync-debug ?
16:48<@Bjarni>that would be one way to start :)
16:49<@Bjarni>planetmaker: @.@
16:50<planetmaker>I'm amazed :P
16:50<+glx><rortom> when it desyncs, diff the savegames <-- the desync may be caused by something that happened 3 months before the actual desync
16:51<planetmaker>but I think my glasses are smaller :D
16:53-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
16:53<@Bjarni>something is really wrong here
16:53<@Bjarni>no web server replies to me, nomatter what I try
16:54<planetmaker>ping 134.169.28.42 - does it work?
16:54<@Bjarni>no
16:54-!-iwein [~iwein@s559100ee.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
16:54<ben_goodger>Bjarni: when my router does that, it typically means it has exhausted its TCP table and requires restart
16:54-!-rortom [~rortom_@5aca977e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:54<planetmaker>oh...
16:55<@Bjarni>then why am I still on IRC?
16:55<planetmaker>Those announced dead live longer :D
16:55<+glx>because the connection is already established
16:56<ben_goodger>quite
16:56<ben_goodger>usually caused by overuse of torrents, in my experience
16:58<@Bjarni>quite interesting
16:58-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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16:59<@Bjarni>because right now all my internet traffic is xchat and firefox
16:59<@Bjarni>that is... firefox isn't communicating right now
17:00<planetmaker>Yeah, but FF has no permanent connections as opposed to irc.
17:00<@Bjarni>anyway if I disappear in a moment, then you will know why :P
17:01-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:05-!-mode/#openttd [+b bjarni!*@*] by petern
17:05<@petern>hehe
17:06<+glx>lol
17:06<Sacro>hahaha XD
17:06-!-KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-102-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
17:07<ln>smaller than three
17:08<Yexo>planetmaker: I've just read through the current is patch and I think I can better start over than continue from the existing patch. There are just too many problems with it.
17:09<@Rubidium>subsidiaries take 5?
17:09<Yexo>I guess so :)
17:10<Yexo>Rubidium: Is there a chance a proper written patch for that will hit trunk someday?
17:10<planetmaker>Yexo: that's what I've been saying with "buggy" :)
17:10<Yexo>"buggy" is an understatement here :)
17:10<@Rubidium>Yexo: there always is a chance
17:11<Yexo>Rubidium: ok, rephase: what is your opinion about the idea?
17:11-!-mode/#openttd [-b bjarni!*@*] by petern
17:11<@Rubidium>"can't be bothered"/"personally not going to spend time in"
17:12-!-Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-75-74-51-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
17:13<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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17:52-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
17:52<@Bjarni>FINALLY!
17:53*Bjarni wonders how long it lasts
17:53<@Bjarni>anybody here?
17:53<SmatZ>hello Bjarni
17:53<SmatZ>you are too slow
17:53<SmatZ>everyone's gone now
17:54<@Bjarni>13 193.88.59.1 (193.88.59.1) 15.560 ms !X 15.109 ms !X * <-- this is what I get when I try to traceroute my DNS server D:
17:54<SmatZ>:)
17:55<@Bjarni>my requests circles around inside my ISP (not locally) and eventually they time out
17:55<@Rubidium>nice, ain't it?
17:55<@Bjarni>so something is really wrong and since it's not locally I can't do anything about it
17:55*dih hugs SmatZ
17:55<dih>hugging a dev a day keeps the doctor away
17:55<@Bjarni>at least it looks like it's not something weird that I have to fix personally
17:55<@Bjarni>and I'm pretty sure the ISP noticed by now
17:56<@Rubidium>if only the doctor would come ;)
17:56<dih>:-P
17:56<SmatZ>:-)
17:56<@Rubidium>there's vast evidence that they have given others much later versions of OTTD; would cut development time quite a bit
17:56<@Bjarni> 9 vlan30.d1.li.tdk.net (193.88.59.1) 14.914 ms 15.393 ms 16.022 ms
17:56<@Bjarni>10 * * *
17:56<@Bjarni>11 * * *
17:56<@Bjarni>12 * * *
17:56<@Bjarni>13 * * *
17:56<@Rubidium>although... it'd be like killing your parents
17:56<@Bjarni>this ain't good
17:56<@Bjarni>still the DNS server
17:57-!-Aylomen [~a@DSL01.83.171.179.50.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:58<@Bjarni>what does !X mean in traceroute?
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17:58<Nite_Owl>Bjarni: that seems to be a common complaint today - you are not alone
17:58<@Bjarni>the internet broke?
17:59<@Bjarni>I can't browse the net to figure out if it's a common problem
17:59<@Bjarni>worst problem is that I can't access uni and figure out what I should prepare for tomorrow :(
18:00<@Bjarni>anybody who have a working DNS server IP that I can borrow?
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18:01<@Bjarni>anybody reading this? :s
18:01<FauxFaux>Nope.
18:01<FauxFaux>Bjarni: 4.2.2.1, no, really.
18:02<FauxFaux>Yes, it's low tier and public.
18:02<@Bjarni>I asked if people were reading what I wrote, not if people cared :P
18:02<@Bjarni>actually I guess you use some DNS to access the internet
18:02<FauxFaux>tcp-over-dns ftw.
18:02<@Bjarni>err
18:03<@Bjarni>dns-over-tcp
18:03<@Bjarni>but I guess you are using some sort of DNS anyway :)
18:03<Aali>no there's actually an app that lets you use IP over DNS
18:04<FauxFaux>There's actually a standard for dns over tcp, it makes kind of sense.
18:04<Aali>its very handy for circumventing those pay-for-access services, because they usually allow DNS lookups
18:05<Aali>not that i would ever do that
18:05<Aali>seeing as its illegal and whatnot
18:06<@Bjarni>what kind of interesting pay-for-access services are there?
18:06<@Bjarni>no, porn isn't interesting :P
18:07<Aali>alot of trains here in sweden have internet access, but you have to pay for it unless you're in first class
18:07<@Bjarni>ahh
18:07<Aali>lets just say their system isn't entirely bulletproof
18:07<@Bjarni>:)
18:07<Prof_Frink>Aali: It used to be that The Cloud APs allowed access to anything on port 8443.
18:08<FauxFaux>Yeah, some allow arbitary traffic on port 53 udp.
18:08<Aali>these only allow access to their own internal DNS server
18:09-!-eMJay [~michael@60-241-9-164.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd
18:09<Aali>actually, the uni i studied at last year suffered from the same problem
18:10<Aali>of course, you couldn't access the internal network that way, which i guess is all they really care about
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18:13*eMJay loves Mortal's quit message
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18:19<Eddi|zuHause>http://nopaste.php-q.net/65037 <-- muahaha... [german]
18:20<@Bjarni>that's cruel to do right now
18:20<@Bjarni>considering I stated that I can't use DNS
18:20<@Bjarni>however now it's working again
18:20<@Bjarni>it just started working again :D
18:21<@Bjarni>something went wrong for the ISP and it took out 38 towns
18:21<@Bjarni>*37
18:21<@Bjarni>no
18:21<@Bjarni>that's not it
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>so just add another DNS server?
18:21<ln>perhaps the windmill powering the DNS server has stopped.
18:22<@Bjarni>:P
18:22<ben_goodger>s/windmill/hamsters
18:22<Prof_Frink>s|$|/|
18:22<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause> so just add another DNS server? <-- I asked several times for a DNS IP, yet nobody would give me one
18:22<@Bjarni>and all the ones I have failed
18:22<ben_goodger>"thine is the hamster that powers the servers, and you'll pay for ever RM"
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>mine is 217.237.149.205, but i fear it's only possible to use from t-online
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>you could try 141.48.3.3, that used to be my university's DNS
18:24<@Bjarni>but now it's working again
18:24<ln>someone tell opendns's ip to bjarni.
18:24<SpComb>4.2.2.1
18:24<SpComb>and/or 4.2.2.2
18:24<@Bjarni>but yes, it would be nice to know :)
18:26*Bjarni just wrote down the opendns IPs
18:27<@Bjarni>now I just need to store it somewhere where I can find it the next time something breaks
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's easy to remember... that was the code for my mother's old car radio
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: in /etc/resolv.conf ;)
18:32-!-NukeBuster [~wouter@80.101.115.82] has left #openttd []
18:33<@Bjarni>I know how to add it
18:33<@Bjarni>however I wonder if it's a good idea
18:33<@Bjarni>to do on a daily basis
18:33<@Bjarni>I mean I read something about a security problem with opendns
18:33<@Bjarni>something about phishing that they didn't block
18:34<@Bjarni>or something like that
18:34<+glx>Bjarni just wrote down the opendns IPs <-- something.222.222 and something.220.220 IIRC
18:35<+glx>but I forgot the something part
18:35<+glx>just put them at the bottom of the list
18:35<ln>there are only 254² possibilities, Bjarni can try them out quickly.
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>less
18:36<ben_goodger>:D
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>10 and 192 cannot be in the first place
18:37<ln>not entirely true
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, they can, but it wouldn't make any sense :p
18:37-!-welshdragon [~vista@87.102.21.185] has joined #openttd
18:38<ln>i've been using adsl connection where the nameservers were 10.something.
18:38-!-NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@80.101.115.82] has joined #openttd
18:39<ln>and actually still are.
18:39<+glx>they are in the modem?
18:39-!-Char [~Ich@d83-180-230-106.cust.tele2.ch] has joined #openttd
18:39<ln>nope, they are at the ISP.
18:40<ln>10.16.10.16 and 10.16.11.16
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>but those are internal to the ISP then
18:41<ln>indeed
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>we were talking about OpenDNS
18:42<ben_goodger>opendns is bloody awful
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>which kinda implys that these would be globally reachable IPs
18:43<eMJay>Eddi|zuHause: why do you say?
18:44<ln>now what kind of an conversation would this be if the scope of discussion was not changed transparently
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>one that would lead to peace and unity amongst all people
18:46-!-Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>eMJay: i have no idea what you actually asked there.
18:47<eMJay>why would they be globally reachable IPs?
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>it wouldn't make much sense to call them "open" otherwise
18:48*TrueBrain waves hello
18:49<eMJay>The isp's dns with 10.x.x.x addresses?
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>it's like "hey, i created a totally free and fast internet service, but you can only reach it from my class C private network
18:49<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: that is how I offer free webhosting
18:50<TrueBrain>todat AMS-IX passes 512 Gbps, and .. oh yeah, there was a blackout in NIKHEF
18:50<TrueBrain>lol
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>one link down and the other one increases throughput? what a strange coincidence
18:51<TrueBrain>NIKHEF == AMS-IX
18:52<TrueBrain>so no
18:52<TrueBrain>it is just funny the day something reaches an other 'limit', it also is the day something big drops :p
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>then you totally gave too little context to get the joke
18:53<TrueBrain>the context is a newspaper ;)
18:53<TrueBrain>but fair enough
18:53<TrueBrain>I always assume people know the infastructure of AMS-IX :p
18:53<TrueBrain>hehe
18:54-!-lobstar [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd
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18:55<TrueBrain>so, anything good (OpenTTD) related?
18:55<+glx>yes I fixed an old noai bug yesterday :)
18:55<TrueBrain>so I read
18:55<TrueBrain>you missynced ;)
18:55<+glx>as always ;)
18:56<TrueBrain>those stupid chunks .. hard to do correct
18:56<TrueBrain>so I don't blame you :p
18:56<TrueBrain>(hehehehhee :p)
18:56<TrueBrain>I wonder how you ever found it .. but okay :p
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>like that kernel update about anonymous proxies... "we lost this feature 5 years ago, but better late than never" or something...
18:57<+glx>expected when the version goes from 64 to 69 in one sync
18:57<+glx>easy I added debug to print current offset after each SlObject in noai and trunk
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>maybe someone should design a more branch friendly savegame versioning system?
18:58<+glx>was not directly related to version, but to how noai fakes loading of old ai
18:58<@Rubidium>maybe someone should design a more development friendly time assignment for our devs
18:58<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: feel free
18:59<planetmaker>[23:19] <Eddi|zuHause> http://nopaste.php-q.net/65037 <-- muahaha... [german] <-- actually I find that anything but funny :( It's an erorion of the foundations...
18:59-!-lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>a what?!?
18:59-!-lobster_MB [~michielbr@86.89.201.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:00<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: btw now that we talked so much about DNS I completely forgot about your link
19:00<planetmaker>sorry. erosion.
19:00<@Bjarni>looks like elderly people can't vote on modern election days
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>mind you, it's in brandenburg, so you probably need to teach these people to use a voting cabin anyway, regardless of paper or computer...
19:01<Sacro>my "replace train" winow is empty
19:01<Sacro>D:
19:01<Sacro>help
19:01<planetmaker>It's 19 years, so they have learnt now. :)
19:01<planetmaker>Mind that, I wouldn't bother to vote using a voting machine either.
19:01<planetmaker>No point then.
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>not even the bundestag could agree on voting machines in the reichstag building, even though they basically rebuilt that from scratch
19:02<Sacro>I think I have a bug in autoreplace
19:03<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
19:03<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 minutes and 37 seconds ago: <Bjarni> looks like elderly people can't vote on modern election days
19:03<eMJay>is there a how-to on the wiki for doing graphics?
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the point in voting computers
19:03<Sacro>eMJay: yes
19:03<eMJay>Sacro: i tried search, but no joy :S
19:03<+glx>eMJay: wiki.ttdpatch.net
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>nobody can properly check for any cheating, because of proprietary components all over the place
19:04<planetmaker>exactly...
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>voting machines must be 100% open source
19:04<planetmaker>even if, it would require sound technical knowledge.
19:04<Sacro>technical sound knowledge
19:04<DaleStan>"Voting should be done on paper"
19:04<planetmaker>A pen and paper ballot can be supervised by the old lady next door.
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>every person eligible for voting must be able to check the system
19:05<eMJay>glx and Sacro, ah wrong wiki :P
19:05<+glx>and to trust the system
19:05<DaleStan>eMJay: No, that would be the correct wiki.
19:05<planetmaker>very much so. I know which system I wouldn' trust :)
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>all of them...
19:06<planetmaker>all electronic ones.
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>i would not necessarily trust the paper ones either
19:07<planetmaker>you could verify easily that they work ok.
19:07<eMJay>DaleStan: I meant, i was looking in the wrong wiki
19:07<planetmaker>Just be there before it starts and go through the counting procedure.
19:07<+glx>at least you can count paper ones
19:07<eMJay>DaleStan: I was looking in the wiki.openttd.org
19:08<planetmaker>err... well... and stay till after the election and take part in the counting procedure.
19:09<planetmaker>a piece of paper won't play chess with you :P
19:10<planetmaker>has no active electromagnetic emission
19:10<planetmaker>and doesn't fail upon power cut.
19:10<planetmaker>And now I vote for my bed :)
19:11<TrueBrain>your pencil can break!
19:11-!-lobstar_MB is now known as lobster_MB
19:11<planetmaker>which gives me two for the price of one!
19:12<TrueBrain>depends on the original size :)
19:12<planetmaker>:)
19:12<+glx>here the pencil is only needed to sign the register (and they provide it)
19:12<TrueBrain>maybe someone put a paper under your paper, being able to see your vote
19:12<planetmaker>It's a case where carrying a pocket knife comes in handy :)
19:13<planetmaker>TrueBrain: easy to check :)
19:13<TrueBrain>(why do people car eif others can read their vote? Is it that important that others don't find out what your vote?)
19:13<planetmaker>yes.
19:13<TrueBrain>planetmaker: depends, I can give you a few situations, you won't be able to tell :)
19:13<ben_goodger>TrueBrain: conceivable, yes
19:13<planetmaker>it makes it impossible to buy votes.
19:13<ben_goodger>I can think of situations where I wouldn't want people to know I'd voted for a particular person
19:14<ben_goodger>such as if I voted for mccain
19:14<ben_goodger>I'd instantly feel so dirty that I'd crumble into dust if anyone found out
19:14<TrueBrain>ben_goodger: yeah, you really should make sure nobody finds out about that :)
19:14<ben_goodger>meh
19:14<TrueBrain>but if you have an opinion which you refuse to tell publicly, I suggest not to vote at all :)
19:14<ben_goodger>good idea
19:14<planetmaker>no. why?
19:15<ben_goodger>well, when there's an election in the UK, I will vote --- not that it will matter, the lib dems will win my constituency and very few other constituencies, without my help
19:15<TrueBrain>still, voting feels good :)
19:15<ben_goodger>yes
19:15<planetmaker>yep :)
19:15<TrueBrain>at least you can say you tried :)
19:15<ben_goodger>true
19:15<TrueBrain>and, when they do something stupid: I didn't vote for those people!
19:15<TrueBrain>hehe
19:16<planetmaker>hehe :)
19:16<+glx>many people didn't vote for our president (even some who voted for him)
19:16<TrueBrain>then again, that might be a reason to keep your vote private .. I always annoying my friends with it, when they complain about a given person .. then I just say: but YOU voted for him
19:17<DaleStan><TrueBrain> but if you have an opinion which you refuse to tell publicly, <-- "refuse to tell" isn't the issue. The issue is "my boss says I will vote for so-and-so if I value my job."
19:17<TrueBrain>DaleStan: fair enough
19:18<Nite_Owl>Need to Feed - Later All
19:18<TrueBrain>but I doubt your boss is trying to figure out what you voted by some advanced sniffers ;)
19:18-!-Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-75-74-51-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon]
19:18<planetmaker>exactly that: buying a vote :) vote for me or die :P
19:18<TrueBrain>last week I read that people can even monitor your (physical) keyboard hits ... :s
19:19<planetmaker>nothing new. It uses elecricity. So it emits radiation.
19:19<+glx>hacking the webcam?
19:19<TrueBrain>planetmaker: still, proof-of-concept was created
19:19<@Rubidium>and each key makes a slightly different sound when pressed
19:19<@Bjarni><Sacro> I think I have a bug in autoreplace <--- I really like when people say that they found a bug and then they shut up :P
19:19<TrueBrain>that it is possible, one thing .. that people do it :p
19:19<planetmaker>even that proof-of-concept is at least a decade old
19:19<TrueBrain>Rubidium / glx: no, by radiation
19:19<Char>test
19:20<+glx>fail
19:20<Char>:P
19:20<TrueBrain>planetmaker: well, it was kind of new in several ways .. as they were pretty far away, and the keyboard was both protected and via a wire ..
19:20<+glx>hmm I should have use DorpsGek to say that :)
19:20<TrueBrain>glx: yews
19:20<TrueBrain>:)
19:21<planetmaker>TrueBrain: I'm pretty sure I read a couple of years ago that exactly that was done from the house on the other street side. Tracking the keyboard operations and monitor display using directional antennae
19:21<TrueBrain>monitor display? Now that is hard (and kind of unbelievable :p)
19:21<planetmaker>It was CRTs back then :)
19:21<+glx>my brother can see mouse wheel on the TV
19:21<TrueBrain>reading a 50Hz changing signal, on a raster of 1000x1000 ...
19:21<planetmaker>yes, but you can do that via lock-in.
19:22<planetmaker>you got the line frequency. It's quite easy. Like TV signals.
19:22<TrueBrain>still, reading that signal from a distance
19:22<TrueBrain>and still reconstruct the image
19:23<planetmaker>I did it in the advanced physics course - with a piece of wire tapping the satellite tv signal.
19:23<planetmaker>a crt has the same signal
19:23<planetmaker>you just need good amplification and and lock-in on the new line signal
19:23<TrueBrain>planetmaker: there is a difference, and a big one for that matter
19:24<planetmaker>not too mcuh
19:24<planetmaker>*much
19:24<+glx>planetmaker: you had access to the wire
19:24<TrueBrain>the amplification part I don't see happening for CRT signal ..
19:24<planetmaker>glx: the wire was the antennae.
19:24<planetmaker>the amplification has to be on your side - not crt
19:25<planetmaker>it's an alternating ray of electrons. If it switches monitor side, it's a very clear signal.
19:25<planetmaker>doesn't work anymore in the time of TFTs :)
19:26<planetmaker>it's afterall guided by an AC magnetic field.
19:26<+glx><planetmaker> doesn't work anymore in the time of TFTs :) <-- light guns don't work well either now
19:26<planetmaker>well... no magnetic
19:26<planetmaker>electric
19:26<TrueBrain>http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k7amb5qtOGW2C6Odmq
19:29<TrueBrain>planetmaker: I really have no problems believing that getting keyboard activity is easy .. but CRT screens .. I really need to see that with my own eyes :)
19:29<TrueBrain>I can't see a way an antenna can receive 1000x1000 raster
19:30<TrueBrain>or it should be able to read at the speed of the electron-canon ..
19:30<planetmaker>TrueBrain: you know each line termination and each frame termination
19:30-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat3.arachne.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:30<Aali>hmm, what was the name of that project?
19:31<TrueBrain>Aali: CERN
19:31<planetmaker>the hardest part is to get the actuall brightness which is the intensity of the beam.
19:31<Aali>some guys were making CRT screens transmit AM radio
19:31<TrueBrain>(random question, random answer ;))
19:31<planetmaker>which also emits quite a bit of radiation
19:31<TrueBrain>planetmaker: I would love to see such thing in action :)
19:31<TrueBrain>I really won't believe it until I see it :)
19:32<Aali>ah, tempest
19:32-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1EE54.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:33<Aali>search for tempest and you'll find all sorts of crazy stuff people have done with CRT monitors
19:33<TrueBrain>well, all I will do now is searching for my bed
19:33<planetmaker>http://bss.sfsu.edu/fischer/ir%20360/Readings/tempest.htm
19:33<TrueBrain>I wish you all a very good night :)
19:33<planetmaker>night TB
19:33<planetmaker>that link's for you, though :)
19:33<TrueBrain>monitoring a CPU .. now that is fun :p
19:36<Sacro>Bjarni: I have nothing in mylist of trains
19:36<Sacro>but some stuff in wagons
19:36<planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEMPEST <--- there are NATO standards regarding that... :P
19:37<SmatZ>planetmaker: tl;dr but yeah, I was scared after wating the 1984 movie ... and comparing it with today's reality :)
19:37<planetmaker>SmatZ: a frightening comparison, I think :S
19:39<SmatZ>I wonder what will be the reality in 2043
19:39<TrueBrain>planetmaker: nice arcticle; but clearly it hugely depends on thef act a cable is attached :)
19:39<planetmaker>TrueBrain: to what?
19:39<TrueBrain>to the CRT
19:39<TrueBrain>acting like an antenna
19:39<planetmaker>If you use a wireless keyboard you surely transmit the data directly. That's even easier then.
19:40<planetmaker>or crt. Show me one without.
19:40<TrueBrain>it is not about that; it is about how the signals are received :)
19:40<TrueBrain>as I said, I saw no way to receive a 1000x1000 raster
19:40-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:40<TrueBrain>but signals from a single cable, okay, I can see that working :)
19:40<planetmaker>which also doesn#t use wireless transmission. Of course, the cable may act as antenna :)
19:40<TrueBrain>which makes it wireless ;)
19:40<TrueBrain>hehe
19:40<planetmaker>:)
19:41-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
19:41<TrueBrain>anyway, nice article, and you ar eright, reading CRTs should be possible in that case :)
19:41<TrueBrain>Now for real: good night :)
19:41<planetmaker>indeed! For me, too. Good night everyone.
19:41<Aali>TrueBrain: i've seen tempest in action, sure, the "victim" was in text mode, but you could read that shit from a block away
19:41<TrueBrain>(bah, you tempt me to hook up an antenna receiver to my computer :(
19:41<planetmaker>:D
19:42<TrueBrain>glad my latest computer doesn't have a COM port :)
19:42<planetmaker>watch the p0rn of your neighbor :P
19:42<TrueBrain>night :)
19:42-!-ln-- [~ln--@dyn-xdsl-83-150-113-243.nebulazone.fi] has joined #openttd
19:42<ln--># Appears as SCOTTY
19:42-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@89.246.160.182] has joined #openttd
19:43<ln>apologies for that, but it's unavoidable
19:44<planetmaker>http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-577.pdf <--- scary. They tell you your graphics card without ever looking at your computer :O
19:48<planetmaker>bah. Even the reflection of your monitor on the wall is readable...
19:48*planetmaker goes to sleep - probably dreaming of James Bond & co..
19:49<ln>usually females dream of James Bond
19:49<Aali>i'm actually watching the new james bond movie with my dad next weekend
19:49-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.164.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:49-!-eMJay [~michael@60-241-9-164.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:49<planetmaker>I'm the evil counterpart, ln
19:49<Aali>its kind-of the last thing we ever do together
19:50<planetmaker>o_O
19:50<planetmaker>that doesn't sound too well, Aali ...
19:50<Aali>dont worry about it
19:51-!-treve [~treve@83.101.38.197] has joined #openttd
19:51<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> (why do people car eif others can read their vote? Is it that important that others don't find out what your vote?) <- 20 years ago, if you even made a step towards the voting cabin, you'd get "visits" at your home later, trying to convince you to change your vote (from an assumed "no" to a public "yes"). if you dared to publicly vote "no", more serious things could happen.
19:51<treve>hi ally
19:51<treve>any dutch guys?
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not particularly fond of going back to that version of "voting"
19:51<Aali>planetmaker: we agree to disagree about everything :P
19:52<Aali>but thats fine
19:52<Aali>i'm fine, he's fine, we're fine
19:52<planetmaker>:D
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>treve: i have not seen a dutch person ever in my life
19:52<treve>oke
19:53<@Bjarni>I have seen a Dutch person
19:53<@Bjarni>but he wasn't online
19:53<planetmaker>sounded more dramatic, Aali . That version doesn't sound too different from what I know :)
19:53<treve>i am looking for some1 that can explain how autopilot etc works, or how i can run a scipt on a server, but i am total noob in irc
19:53<@Bjarni>in fact I'm not entirely sure if he had an internet connection at all
19:53<treve>and google aint helping me for couple off days
19:53<planetmaker>it's about 3 weeks ago, I saw a Dutch person.
19:53<Aali>planetmaker: yeah, i'm drunk, so just disregard any- and everything i say
19:54<ln>http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/kuvat/ottd-comic.png
19:54<@Bjarni>Aali: we always do that
19:54<planetmaker>treve: you should ask dih or Brianetta about it - at more reasonable times
19:54<Aali>Bjarni: great
19:55<treve>wtf
19:55<treve>nice job
19:55<planetmaker>loool. Nice one!
19:55<treve>and the guy fits me
19:55<vvv444>He should ask babyottd :)
19:55<@Bjarni>he isn't here right now
19:56<ln>and someone said Microsoft doesn't do innovations. :)
19:56<vvv444>@seen babyottd
19:56<@DorpsGek>vvv444: babyottd was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 4 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: <babyottd> zzz
19:56<vvv444>Probably still sleeping :)
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>ln: that's an almost accurate depiction of myself :p
19:57<@Bjarni>ln: your cartoon is poor.... I'm drawn as a woman o_O
19:57<Sacro>ln: that's awesome
19:58<treve>you should make youre own irc version ;
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>the mask guy almost looks like one of the cannibals from monkey island ;)
19:58<treve>i want it always like that
19:58<ln>i can also revela that DorpsGek looks exactly like Eddi|zuHause.
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, the only civilised persons on monkey island
19:58<ln>*reveal
19:58<treve>messenger program in cartoon style
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>ln: i have already noticed that
19:58<treve>you could even make money with it
19:58-!-ln-- [~ln--@dyn-xdsl-83-150-113-243.nebulazone.fi] has left #openttd []
19:59<@Bjarni>I can see one problem with this software
19:59<ln>oh crap, automatic updates reboot.
19:59<@Bjarni>and it can be shortened down to one word
19:59<@Bjarni>.exe
19:59-!-Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...]
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>ln: it's your own fault for booting into windows :p
20:00-!-ln-- [~ln--@dyn-xdsl-83-150-113-243.nebulazone.fi] has joined #openttd
20:00<ln--># Appears as SCOTTY
20:00<ln>Eddi|zuHause: it doesn't work with wine :/
20:01<ln>Bjarni: yes, apart from being .exe and not supporting utf-8, it's quite perfect.
20:04<@Bjarni>this guy should make it open source
20:04-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:04<@Bjarni>so that real people can benefit from it
20:04<ln>Bjarni: "this guy" is Microsoft.
20:05<@Bjarni>I should read it more closely
20:05-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
20:05<ln>damnit, now i look the same as Bjarni.
20:05<@Bjarni>I read "I developed Comic Chat"
20:05<@Bjarni>it says "I developed Comic Chat first within Microsoft Research"
20:08<ln>if MS Comic Chat was made the preferred client for this channel, would anyone object?
20:08<@Bjarni>I like the download page. All the suitcases are marked with a flag and the name of the language. Except English (called MSChat 25) and Japanese (called 日 (sun), should have been 日本語)
20:08<Sacro>ln: link!
20:09<@Bjarni>Sacro: http://mermeliz.com/cchat.htm
20:09<Sacro>ooh,
20:09<@Bjarni>I guess that is what you are asking for
20:09<@Bjarni><ln> if MS Comic Chat was made the preferred client for this channel, would anyone object? <-- YES
20:09<Sacro>doesn't work in wine :(
20:10<@Bjarni>ln already said so
20:12<Sacro>orly?
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20:50<Aali>now thats a good quit message
20:58<ln>*that's
21:06<thingwath>oh, that Comic Chat thing is so international
21:06<Aali>ln: whatever
21:07<ln>Aali: not whatever -- english only.
21:08<thingwath>if I only knew what "Èesky" means.
21:09<ln>or Ðóññêèé
21:10<Aali>ln: ' is too close to the "enter" key on my keyboard, so i can't really use it unless i concentrate really hard
21:10<thingwath>well, these two means, that author doesn't know about Unicode
21:10<thingwath>but "Slovaški"...
21:10<@Bjarni>Aali: are you drunk?
21:10<@Bjarni>'''''''''
21:10<@Bjarni>:P
21:11<@Bjarni>it's just a key just like all the other keys
21:11<Aali>Bjarni: scrollback says yes
21:11<@Bjarni>right
21:11<@Bjarni>we should ignore you
21:11<Aali>Bjarni: indeed
21:11<ln>thingwath: š is in Latin-9 but the others aren't.
21:11<@Bjarni>I just wonder about one thing
21:11<Sacro>hmmm
21:11<@Bjarni>why do Swedes like to get drunk?
21:12<Sacro>what does "x = x++" actually do?
21:12<Aali>Bjarni: because they're so inhibited when sober?
21:12<thingwath>ln: I mean, why Slovaški, what is it?
21:13<Aali>Bjarni: we dont talk or sit next to each other on busses/trams
21:13<Aali>its sad but true
21:13<ln>thingwath: most likely the name of the language.
21:13<thingwath>ln: but in which language :)
21:13<ln>thingwath: slovak?
21:13<@Bjarni>you don't sit next to each other in the busses, so you have to be drunk?
21:14<thingwath>No, that would be "Slovensky"
21:14<@Bjarni>how about trying not to be drunk and you will realise that people will stop avoiding you
21:14<Aali>Bjarni: no, we have to be drunk to express our true feelings
21:16<@Bjarni>you are weird
21:16<Aali>indeed
21:16<thingwath>oh, of course, slovenia, now I understand
21:16<Aali>i dont like it either, but thats just the way it is
21:17<@Bjarni>no it's not
21:17<Char>why is it impossible to build signals on bridges?
21:17<Char>or in tunnels?
21:17<Char>i mean
21:17<ln>because.
21:17<Char>seems to be kind of a major problem
21:17<Char>in real games
21:18<@Bjarni>Aali: ever considered not being drunk for a change and see what happens?
21:18<Runr>I guess it wouldn't make any sense, Char
21:18<thingwath>oh, it's tuesday
21:18<@Bjarni>you know nobody sane would want a drunk guy
21:19<Sacro>hmm, int i = 0; i = i++ gives different results in C and C#
21:20<Sacro>how strange
21:20<thingwath>I think that i = i++; is defined somehow in C#
21:21<thingwath>in C it can't be anything
21:21<Aali>Bjarni: i know, i'm not an alcoholic or anything, I just happen to have the week off
21:21<thingwath>uh, s/can't/can/
21:22<thingwath>Aali: beer ftw. :)
21:23<Aali>thingwath: mistake
21:23<Aali>thingwath: i hate beer
21:23<thingwath>:(
21:23<@Bjarni>you drink vodka?
21:23<Aali>gin :(
21:24<thingwath>last week, I spent more on beer than food
21:24<@Bjarni>you know that every time you drink, you affect your brain
21:24<thingwath>(but beer IS food, so it doesn't matter anyway)
21:24<Aali>i do have vodka, but i'm not drinking that shit
21:24-!-lobstar is now known as lobster
21:24<@Bjarni>every time you get drunk and sober, you lower the brain's resistance against that scenario
21:25<Sacro>Bjarni: you know every time you breath you affect your brain
21:25<@Bjarni>yeah
21:25<@Bjarni>without breathing the brain will suffer from lack of oxygen
21:25<Aali>breathe*
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21:26<thingwath>it won't suffer without alcohol?
21:27<@Bjarni>when you drink alcohol it slows down your brain
21:28<@Bjarni>the body tries to compensate by releasing chemicals to make the brain more active and less chemicals to slow down the brain
21:28<@Bjarni>once the alcohol is gone again, those chemicals harm the brain until the balance is corrected once again
21:28<Aali>Bjarni: do you ever drink?
21:29<@Bjarni>the difference is that the last time the brain is out of balance, it's too active and it's actually hurting it
21:29<thingwath>ok :)
21:29<@Bjarni>eventually it can't take it anymore and the person becomes an alcoholic to avoid the harmful "getting sober" period
21:30<@Bjarni><Aali> Bjarni: do you ever drink? <-- isn't that besides the point?
21:30<thingwath>Well, I'm not alcoholic yet.
21:30<Aali>i'm just asking
21:30<@Bjarni>if I told you that you shouldn't swim in icy water, would you ignore this statement if I decided to take a swim?
21:31<welshdragon>i would
21:31<@Bjarni>well... I don't drink
21:31<@Bjarni>I don't like the taste
21:31<Aali>i wouldn't swim in icy water, can't stand the cold
21:31<thingwath>ethanol has some taste?
21:31<welshdragon>i drink, but only vodka stuff
21:32<welshdragon>i don't like lager
21:32<Aali>Bjarni: have you ever been drunk?
21:32<welshdragon>and even then, i only have 4 units
21:33<@Bjarni><Aali> Bjarni: have you ever been drunk? <-- isn't that besides the point?
21:33<ben_goodger>what the hell is going on?
21:34<Aali>Bjarni: what point are you trying to make here?
21:34<@Bjarni>telling the effects of being drunk
21:35<thingwath>I think we know them, unfortunately.
21:35<Aali>Bjarni: I'm not saying you should drink, i know a lot of people who dont drink out of principle, and i respect them
21:35<ben_goodger>damn straight
21:35*welshdragon scuttles off
21:36<@Bjarni>so if I don't drink out of principle, it's ok, but it's weird that I don't drink because I don't like the taste?
21:36<Char>watching a working train system can be pretty relaxing :)
21:36<Char>however, i need some sleep.
21:36<@Bjarni>working train system?
21:36<@Bjarni>where?
21:36<thingwath>I would like to see it, too.
21:38<ben_goodger>switzerland perhaps?
21:38<Char>like
21:38<Char>ingame ;)
21:38<Char>but the swiss railway system is indeed pretty good
21:38<Aali>Bjarni: i really dont care why you dont drink, i just hope this wont be problem in the future :P
21:39<@Bjarni>I just told you that your brain can't deal with getting sober after drinking
21:40<thingwath>my ingame train system has collapsed, again, and I don't know how to make working one
21:40<Aali>i'm pretty good at that though, never get hungover
21:40<@Bjarni>I'm not talking about a hangover
21:40<Char>thingwath: what did it collapse of?
21:41<Char>overload
21:41<Char>?
21:41<thingwath>yes.
21:41<Char>and breakdowns? :P
21:41<thingwath>thousands of people at each station...
21:41<Char>well
21:41<Char>build more trains :P
21:42<Char>use massive feeder stations :P
21:42<thingwath>I do.
21:42<Char>hmmm
21:42<Char>use multi-line mainline
21:42<thingwath>but I play with cargodest
21:42<Char>whats that?
21:42<Aali>Bjarni: then what are you talking about? I say its everyone's right to get hammered every now and then
21:43<@Bjarni>I never denied that
21:43<@Bjarni>I just stated that it's a really bad idea
21:43<@Bjarni>because the brain remembers every time you do it and eventually it gives in
21:44<@Bjarni>and that's not nice if it happens
21:44<Aali>and i kind-of agree with you, its not a good idea, but sometimes its just what you need to get back on your feet
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21:44<thingwath>Char: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39161&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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21:45<@Bjarni>?
21:45<thingwath>the best thing ever (maybe after YAPP)
21:45<@Bjarni>you are saying that you do better if you get drunk?
21:45<Aali>alcoholism is not cool in any way, but if you can control it, i say go for it
21:45<@Bjarni>you missed my point....
21:45<@Bjarni>once the brain gives in then you can't control it
21:46<thingwath>Bjarni: alternatives?
21:46<@Bjarni>you can have full control until you get drunk one time too many and then you will loose everything
21:46<@Bjarni><thingwath> Bjarni: alternatives? <-- ensure that you don't get drunk
21:46<@Bjarni>at least not really drunk
21:46<Aali>Bjarni: but thats just not true
21:47<Char>wow
21:47<Char>cargodest seems like fun
21:47<@Bjarni>I'm not going to argue with a drunk about health issues about drinking
21:47<Aali>sure i dont ever really lose control, but friends of mine do, and they still come out the other end without "losing everything"
21:47<Char>will have to look into that
21:47<Char>but for now, sleep is more important
21:47<Char>so....
21:47<Char>cu
21:48<thingwath>Char: well, fun, mostly it's so hopeless sight :/
21:48<@Bjarni>Aali: you still don't get what I'm talking about. Say your brain has 1000 HP. Every time you drink it will lose some. Eventually it will reach 0 and your brain snaps
21:49<@Bjarni>how long will it take?... nobody can tell
21:49<@Bjarni>will it to people who are drinking heavily for a year or two... most likely not as this is a long term effect
21:49<SmatZ>everytime you breath your brain loses HP
21:50<SmatZ>but sometimes, new neural connections are made
21:50<@Bjarni>why do I have the feeling that you guys don't believe me?
21:50<thingwath>We do.
21:50<SmatZ>chain is as strong as its weakest part... and drinking kills the weakest parts ;-)
21:50<thingwath>We just can't help ourselves. Have to drink. Drink.
21:50<SmatZ>hehe
21:50<@Bjarni><SmatZ> but sometimes, new neural connections are made <-- I'm not talking about neural connections. I'm talking about how the brain deals with chances of chemicals in the blood to control brain activity
21:50<thingwath>And last beer is gone :(
21:51<SmatZ>:-)
21:51<SmatZ>Bjarni: I believe you, I am just not taking this discussion serious :)
21:51<@Bjarni>you have a point
21:51<Aali>Bjarni: ooh, openttd reference, i like that :P, but yes, i do believe drinking is associated with hazards, but there's also alot of good things that can come out of it (responsible drinking, that is)
21:52<thingwath>good things that can come out of drinking?
21:52<@Bjarni>responsible drinking will not make people drunk :P
21:53<SmatZ>mankind has always abused drugs ... and we haven't died out yet
21:53<SmatZ>:)
21:53<@Bjarni>but I guess my time will be better spent sleeping than arguing with some random drunk guy on the internet
21:53<@Bjarni>SmatZ: we will
21:53<thingwath>drunk people cannot type
21:53<Aali>thingwath: people tend to open up and share their innermost feelings when drunk
21:53<SmatZ>Bjarni: because of alcohol / drugs?
21:53<@Bjarni>thingwath: yeah... Aali stopped making sense ages ago :P
21:53<thingwath>Aali: and that is good thing? :D
21:53<SmatZ>nah... because of stupid ideas of mighty people
21:54<Aali>thingwath: of course it is
21:54<@Bjarni>SmatZ: I didn't say that. I said that we will be extinct eventually
21:54<@Bjarni>it depends on stuff like how many nuclear powerplants we build
21:55<SmatZ>why nuclear powerplants?
21:55<Sacro>ooh
21:55<Aali>i have been really drunk since that last gin&tonic went down and i can still type
21:55<@Bjarni>they are radioactive
21:55<SmatZ>so are you
21:55<Sacro>uranium -> nuclear pp -> waste -> towns
21:55<@Bjarni>if too much leak, then we will not be humans anymore
21:56-!-Char [~Ich@d83-180-230-106.cust.tele2.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:56<@Bjarni>and right now a whole lot of new nuclear powerplants are being build
21:56<SmatZ>well, yeah
21:56<@Bjarni>however nobody knows what to do with the radioactive waste
21:56<thingwath>we will always be humans, maybe just not the same ones as we were yesterday
21:56<SmatZ>I want to have many children, so my clan has chance to survive any nuclear war and similiar possible situations :)
21:57<Sacro>Bjarni: find a country we don't like to offload it to
21:57<Sacro>america or something
21:57<SmatZ>but it's hard to find a girl who would like to have many children for this purpose :)
21:57<Aali>SmatZ: you're crazy
21:57<SmatZ>Aali: yeah, they say so
21:57<@Bjarni>SmatZ: you should tell that it's for a different purpose
21:58<@Bjarni>like getting more votes for your future political party
21:58<@Bjarni>:P
21:58<SmatZ>hehehe
21:58<SmatZ>or have many visitors by our graves when we are dead :-P
21:59<SmatZ>mm may I should try to donor sperm...
21:59<SmatZ>well ... better go to bed, nn all :)
21:59<@Bjarni>now if you get 6 children and each of those get 6 children, then you will get a whole lot of grandchildren
21:59<@Bjarni><SmatZ> well ... better go to bed, nn all :) <-- that's a good plan too.... if it contains a girl
21:59<thingwath>I want a statue!
22:00<@Bjarni>otherwise it's kind of like not working for your plan :P
22:01<thingwath>it's long-term strategy, of course
22:01<SmatZ>Bjarni: hehe :-) no, there isn't a girl nearby
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22:05<@Bjarni>ok, time for bed
22:05<@Bjarni>wait
22:05<@Bjarni>a few hours past time for bed :P
22:05<@Bjarni>goodnight (what's left of it anyway)
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