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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-10-28

---Logopened Tue Oct 28 00:00:01 2008
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03:18<dih>oi
03:27-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F5E40D.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
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03:40-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@129.187.69.65] has joined #openttd
03:40-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
03:40<@Celestar>\o
03:43<dih>/
03:43<dih>gnah
03:43<dih>i always manage to muck it up
03:43<dih>\o
03:43<dih> /
03:43<dih>/\
03:43<dih>:P
03:43<dih>morning Celestar
03:44<dih>either that stick-man is calling a taxi - or desperately needs the bathroom (and is calling a taxi on top of that)
03:57-!-Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggs-work
03:59<@petern>or it's a rapper pose
04:01<@Celestar>/nfs/home: Input/Output error
04:01<dih>lol
04:01<@Celestar>:o
04:01-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:01<dih>Celestar: may i quote you?
04:02<dih>"Now that's IO"
04:02<dih>:-D
04:03-!-Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has joined #openttd
04:04<@Celestar>hahaha
04:04<@Celestar>where are our admins ...
04:04<@Celestar>not here yet
04:04*Celestar goes fixing
04:05<dih>hehe
04:08*Celestar sighs "Why am I always stuck with other people's work?"
04:12<@Celestar>oh man
04:12<@Celestar>Bird and Fortune just rock
04:14-!-rortom [~rortom_@5aca971b.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd
04:17<dih>:-)
04:21<rortom>hi
04:25<dih>"new game starting if anybody wants to join"
04:25*dih leaves
04:25<dih>:-P
04:25<dih>hello rortom
04:25<dih>lets have a wee guess - who was i immitating right there?
04:26<rortom>:|
04:26<rortom>and i thought yorick was bad :|
04:26<dih>well - you managed to get close to his state too :-D
04:26<dih>nah
04:26<dih>t'was just a spaming :-P
04:27<rortom>:|
04:27<rortom>i will never get to his "state"
04:30<rortom>mh
04:30-!-vvv444 [~vvv444@89-138-176-73.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit []
04:30<rortom>is there a server management script thing?
04:31<@Celestar>hm?
04:31<@Celestar>autopilot?
04:31<planetmaker>ap+ is pretty advanced. And there's going to be a web config tool which works soon again afaik
04:32<@Celestar>really? :o
04:32<dih>Celestar: ap+ is a dereviate of autopilot
04:32<planetmaker>I think Kommer is working on it.
04:32<dih>yep
04:32<dih>rortom: what do you want to do?
04:32<planetmaker>^^ that's the first question which needs answering :)
04:33<dih>hehe
04:33<rortom>a web config tool where you upload savegames to start games
04:33<dih>hehe
04:33<dih>the webconfig tool does not start the game
04:34<dih>autopilot does not allow you to upload saves
04:34<planetmaker>hehe. A whole php gui for Openttd servers would be awesome :)
04:34<dih>there is a python one
04:35<dih>ask SpComb
04:35-!-vvv444 [~vvv444@89-138-176-73.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #openttd
04:35<rortom>uhm. work waiting, laters
04:35-!-rortom [~rortom_@5aca971b.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
04:35<vvv444>hi all.
04:36-!-elmex [~elmex@e180069159.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
04:36<vvv444>Question: How many of you use unnamed vehicle groups?
04:36<@Celestar>unnamed?
04:36<vvv444>With default names "Group N'
04:36<planetmaker>if I use groups, I name them.
04:36<@Celestar>me too
04:37<@Celestar>otherwise I think their usability is limited
04:37<vvv444>Just though it should ask for name on creation.
04:37<planetmaker>no
04:37<@Celestar>like "Atown to Bvillage local" or "C to D superexpress"
04:37<vvv444>planetmaker: Why not?
04:37<planetmaker>I hate computers who want to think for me and pretend to know better when I have to do something
04:37<planetmaker>I can rename groups already now.
04:37<planetmaker>without effort
04:38-!-Char [~Ich@d83-189-150-54.cust.tele2.ch] has joined #openttd
04:39<vvv444>planetmaker: My point is that if 95% of TTD users always rename the group after creation, maybe we can save them the effort of click "create" button, go select the group and click "rename" button by just displaying rename dialog on create. The dialog can already have default name and the remaining 5% will just have press OK.
04:40<vvv444>It's just UI usability.
04:40<dih>vvv444: not everybody names them the same way
04:40<vvv444>I'm I wrong?
04:40<dih>you name your groups with Town A to Town B
04:41<dih>others name their groups after the cargo type
04:41<dih>some after stations
04:41<dih>...
04:41<dih>some people might colour their trains and name the groups after the colour
04:41<vvv444>dih: So? You mean you don't yet kno the name on creation?
04:41<dih>exactly
04:41<dih>that is up to the one playing
04:42<vvv444>Hmmm, the question is how many people do so and how many otherwise...
04:42<vvv444>Do tt-forums have polls?
04:42<planetmaker>vvv444: a default name is already now given.
04:42<planetmaker>tt-forums have polls.
04:42<dih>if you want to go by statistics, you could go as far as to say "most people on the net call themselvs something with jack - so why not make the default multiplayer name Jack instead of Player?"
04:43<planetmaker>actually... I wouldn't put too much effort in these groups... rather a new ordering scheme :) which combines groups and orders :)
04:43<dih>vvv444: pols dont mean they have an effect on the source code ;-)
04:44<vvv444>LOL. I didn't propose changing default names. But I think you should go by ststistic on UI issues. That's what people want :)
04:44<planetmaker>there's some thread where Brianetta made a nice proposal one restructuring the whole thing to something usefull. Which allows hirachical lists
04:44<vvv444>planetmaker: I
04:44<vvv444>'ll look at it.
04:44<vvv444>Thanks
04:44<planetmaker>np :)
04:45<planetmaker>but I grant that proposal little chance on becoming reality any time soon... so far it's only vapour ware. :D
04:46<dih>vvv444: what people want is not always what the devs want
04:46<dih>and the people dont always have an understanding for the code
04:46<dih>nor the direction the game is taking
04:46<dih>if it were purely what people wanted, you would have a crap load of mess
04:47<Gekz>"I want more dong pictures"
04:47<Gekz>"put them in ttd NOW"
04:47<dih>"aye - will do sir"
04:47<vvv444>planetmaker: You mean the proposal of Brianneta is big and hard to implement?
04:47<Gekz>"while you're there, bend over?
04:48<Gekz>lol @ big and hard
04:48<dih>"yes, sir"
04:48*dih lol's at big and hard
04:48<dih>your a little kid in puberty!
04:48<dih>my word
04:48<dih>what a pitty
04:48<planetmaker>vvv444: it's big. No idea about how hard, but definitely some work. And there's no person who even tried to look at it from an implementation side.
04:49*dih remembers all the 'war' proposals in the forums
04:49<Gekz>war?
04:49<Gekz>lol
04:49<Gekz>wtf
04:49<planetmaker>urgs. Let's make war on war thems. There are many places you can play or have war.
04:49<dih>yep
04:49<Gekz>drive a truck at someone
04:50<Gekz>and collect $50?
04:50<Gekz>That makes no sense.
04:50<dih>no - war influencing the economy
04:50<dih>as a disaster
04:50<Gekz>wtf?
04:50<Gekz>that's heavy shit.
04:50<dih>that Gekz that would be AlKaidaTTD
04:50<Gekz>haha
04:51<Gekz>"terrorists have killed Americans in your Oil Refineries"
04:51<Gekz>"THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER OIL REFINED"
04:51<Gekz>"Terrorists have burnt down your oil derricks"
04:51<Gekz>"
04:51<dih>take bombs from trainee camp to big town
04:51<dih>town now accepts bombs
04:51<dih>:-D
04:52<@Rubidium>the prices for oil have (in|de)creased dramatically
04:52<dih>you dont need a demolish tool anymore
04:52<vvv444>planetmaker: Unfortunatelly the codebase is in quite a mess state (IMHO), that implementing things is painful. I've many years programming experience, but after trying implementing a simple feature I understood that it takes me x10 time than it should only because the things aren't built properly and my basic instinct drives me to rewriting fair part of it :( Still it works well and this quite surprises me.
04:53<dih>vvv444 you are an idiot
04:53<vvv444>dih: Thank you
04:53<dih>sorry for the words "are an"
04:53<planetmaker>vvv444: a mess looks different to me. But surely the code is not everywhere homogineous.
04:53<dih>vvv444: you are welcome
04:53<@Rubidium>vvv444: then you don't have experience with evolved applications
04:54<dih>anytime again
04:54<planetmaker>but you cannot expect that for a code which evolved over 3 or four years.
04:54<@Celestar>er..
04:54<vvv444>No of course I seen worse.
04:54<@Celestar>you need to bear in mind where this code STARTED
04:54<@Celestar>I wonder which of you have seen r1 of the OLD repo
04:54<@Celestar>;)
04:54<planetmaker>:)
04:54<vvv444>I don't blame you. I understand perfectly well what condition it is in.
04:55<vvv444>On contrary, I'm amused how you brought it to work so well!
04:55<planetmaker>I actually doubt that there are many projects with a similar history where the code is in better shape.
04:55-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-82-26-69-27.bmly.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
04:56<vvv444>Well, I haven't looked so deep in Mozilla, gcc, etc. But Linux kernel was better :)
04:56<dih>vvv444: if you want to rewrite parts then do so and post it at bugs.openttd.org
04:57<planetmaker>vvv444: and indeed a combination of orders and groups might be an incentive to revise things there a bit more thoroughly.
04:58<planetmaker>but I figure for any single person it is nearly impossible to understand all trip wires and "why-this-way" in the code of a project of this size
04:58<vvv444>dih: I would, but I have 1/2 time job and full time university. Besides, So big changes won't be accepted especially from someone new as myself.
04:58<planetmaker>vvv444: the PBS patch was written by a basically new person.
04:58<@Rubidium>ofcourse, with the "manpower" the kernel has they've got more time and such
04:59<vvv444>planetmaker: It's not SO big. 200k lines, right?
04:59<planetmaker>or do I err with PBS, Rubidium ?
04:59<planetmaker>don't know. But it was no small one :)
05:00<dih>vvv444: your time excuse is really bad
05:00<dih>most devs here have full time jobs, or study
05:01<dih>some have families to take care of
05:01<planetmaker>some have even both.
05:01<dih>yet still they always manage to find a moment here or there to do their stuff, and to be honest, i am really impressed by that
05:01<vvv444>dih: As I said, so am I :)
05:02-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host156-173-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
05:02<Wolf01>hello
05:02<vvv444>Well, got to go, cya (evil work)
05:03<dih>hello Wolf01
05:03-!-vvv444 [~vvv444@89-138-176-73.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit []
05:04<@petern>hmm, can thunderbird be told to mark things as deleted, instead of doing it's stupid moving-to-trash bollocks?
05:05<@petern>Oh, yes it can :D
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05:09<@Celestar>back
05:16<dih>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k7U-_tJVmw&NR=1
05:16<dih>Celestar: ^
05:20-!-fonso [~fonso@e178075135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
05:23<TrueBrain>hello girls
05:23-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has joined #openttd
05:24<@Rubidium>Hello La Stout ;)
05:26<@Rubidium>again heading out for work?
05:26<TrueBrain>nope :):)
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05:32<dih>hello TrueBrain
05:32<dih>:-)
05:43<TrueBrain>bah, bah, I really miss having 2 screens ... working on one is so annoying :(
05:48-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
05:55<blathijs>TrueBrain: Get a better window manager
05:55<blathijs>:-p
05:57<TrueBrain>blathijs: suggestions?
05:57<blathijs>wmii?
05:57<planetmaker>kde or macosX :)
05:57<@Celestar>:o
05:58<@Celestar>LH will apparently fly the first airplane with a geared turbofan in 2013
05:58<blathijs>TrueBrain: I'm rather fond of tiling window managers myself (wmii, ion, ratpoison, xmonad)
05:58-!-roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
05:58<planetmaker>what the heck is a geared turbofan and what is its advantage over a usual jet engine (which is turbofan afaik - please correct, if not)
05:59<@Celestar>planetmaker: it's a normal jet engine where the RPM ratio between the fan (the big blower you see) and its turbine is not 1:1. It's advantage is about a 15%-20% reduction in fuel burn (and thus CO2) emmissions and a 75% (20dB(A)) reduction in noise.
06:00<planetmaker>ah, cool :)
06:00<planetmaker>so... why not use earlier?
06:00<@Celestar>these 20% reduction gets CO2 per passenger-kilometer below 100g
06:00<@Celestar>(compared to about 200 for a normal car)
06:01<planetmaker>fuel should be one of the main cost drivers next to personel
06:01<planetmaker>200 for a car is a lot - considering new cars.
06:01<@Celestar>planetmaker: on trips < 2000km, it's not. At least not for airlines.
06:01<@Celestar>200 for a car is not a lot in REAL driving conditions.
06:01<planetmaker>:P
06:01<@Celestar>I average (24 months) about 165g/km.
06:01<@Celestar>and it's a small diesel car
06:02<@Celestar>on the highway, I average more to 175g/km
06:02<@Celestar>at least on the longer trips
06:02<planetmaker>hm... ok :)
06:02<@Celestar>well small .. average-sized.
06:02<TrueBrain>blathijs: some look nice .. still not avoid my problem, of not being able to both have IRC + Mail + MSN + kdevelop open :p
06:02<TrueBrain>damn, I really need 2x 22" widescreen :p
06:02<planetmaker>I'd assume highway is most easy on it - if you don't drive on German highways with no speed limit :)
06:02<@Celestar>planetmaker: on longer trips, I go around 140-150km/h.
06:03<planetmaker>sounds reasonable :)
06:03<@Celestar>on shorter trips (daily commpute) its around 80-90km/h on the highway (that's about the max you get when you're lucky)
06:03<planetmaker>but not on Dutch highways... or French :P
06:04<planetmaker>hehe... I remember an occasion on a French highway. We were overtaken by a fast sports car. At the next toll booth, he had a longer and probably much more expensive stop than we :D
06:04<@Celestar>but below 100g/km it pretty good. Another such step and they're on par with high-speed trains (which, in Germany are around 70-80g/Pkm)
06:05<blathijs>TrueBrain: The IRC and MSN problem is easily reduced by using bitlbee
06:05<planetmaker>sounds good. Still leaving the place of the emissions one of the critical points, though :)
06:05<TrueBrain>blathijs: I really like GUI, if you dodn't know that by now ;)
06:05<planetmaker>not for CO2 obviously.
06:05<TrueBrain>I like to see all names you can give yourself in MSN .. bitlbee doesn't allow me :(
06:05<blathijs>TrueBrain: Yeah, just use your GUI IRC client for msn using bitlbee :-)
06:06<blathijs>TrueBrain: Bitlbee does show name changes, right?
06:06<TrueBrain>blathijs: and therefor you miss 90% of the name changes on MSN :)
06:06<TrueBrain>(not their 'real' name, but the 'sub' name
06:06<TrueBrain>and images of people .... :p
06:06<blathijs>useless stuff :-p
06:07<TrueBrain>Not for me :)
06:07<@Celestar>planetmaker: yeah, that remains a problem, especially the Noxes. Hence, the geared turbofan engine reduces those emmisions by more than 50% compare to aircraft in service today.
06:07<@Celestar>planetmaker: not enough, but a step in the right direction.
06:07<TrueBrain>Thunderbird really sucks ... Outlook is a so much better mail client (/me saying that .. scary)
06:07<@Celestar>yeah, only it misses support for a real OS
06:07<planetmaker>Engineering and science can mostly only do steps :)
06:08<@Celestar>yeah
06:08<planetmaker>You cannot jump 5 miles - but you can easily cover them with smaller steps.
06:08<@Celestar>however, the environment problems we have on Earth these days will be solved by science and engineering, and not by politicians.
06:09-!-tokai [~tokai@p54B80A60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:10<@Celestar>gotta love wikipedia at times..
06:10<@Celestar>"It contains roughly (by molar content/volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, trace amounts of other gases, and a variable amount (average around 1%) of water vapor. This mixture of gases is commonly known as air."
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06:12*Rubidium wonders what's roughly when it has 4 significant digits ;)
06:12-!-FloSoft [~sifldoer@g229073093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
06:15<@Celestar>yeah
06:15<@Celestar>me too
06:15<planetmaker>depends upon what accuracy you're used to. Ask the people with atomic clocks ;)
06:15<@Celestar>extents before:4778 after:5 ino=2147551851
06:15<@Celestar>ino=2147551852
06:15<@Celestar>:o
06:15<planetmaker>measurement errors of the order of 10^-16 are high in those cases.
06:16<planetmaker>also GPS needs better accuracy for your tomtom.
06:16<@Celestar>yeah
06:16<@Rubidium>so the measurement error is roughly 10^-16, not 1.02432421344513451234*10^-16
06:16<planetmaker>Rubidium: relative units :)
06:16<planetmaker>x / Delta x
06:16<planetmaker>err... vice versa.
06:16<@Celestar>but for your tomtom, the main error source is the ionospheric error, since I don't think tomtoms are dual-frequency.
06:17<planetmaker>Probably. But I guess they might have some by now.
06:17<@Celestar>what for?
06:17<planetmaker>But they're not military grade :)
06:17<planetmaker>accuracy :P
06:17<@Celestar>there is no difference between military grade and civillian GPS receivers as of now.
06:18<planetmaker>true
06:18<@Celestar>the military frequency is currently not encrypted and can be used by everyone.
06:18<planetmaker>but I guess military grade has a decryption device :P
06:18<planetmaker>but that's beside the point actually :)
06:18<@Celestar>and with any decent dual-frequency receiver you can get about a 4-m accuracy (95%)
06:19<planetmaker>4m isn't that overwhelmingly good, is it?
06:19<planetmaker>but most accuracy can be gained by using two antennae within a car.
06:19<@Celestar>well, it's pretty impressive considering that your lighthouses are 20000km away.
06:19<planetmaker>Gets you rid of interferences due to reflections and stuff like that
06:19<@Celestar>GPSIII might get that down to about 1.5m (95%)
06:20<@Celestar>as might Galileo .. in 2032.
06:20<planetmaker>:O 2032 is now the due date? Shit...
06:20<@Celestar>not really
06:20<@Celestar>the due date is 2014 afaik
06:20<@Celestar>which translates into 2032 for everything the EU is involved in :P
06:20<planetmaker>better :) I need to discuss that soon when we have our "Stollen-Back-Session" :)
06:21<@Celestar>using RTK/GPS, we got about 20mm real-time accuracy.
06:21<planetmaker>that's pretty good :)
06:21<@Celestar>using off-the-shelf parts
06:21<TrueBrain>I also know up to 1cm where I am
06:21<TrueBrain>behind my computer, currently
06:21<@Celestar>at 10km from the base, this went up to around 35mm.
06:21<planetmaker>in ESA jargon also called COTS - which sounds pretty bad in German language :D
06:21<TrueBrain>planetmaker: also in dutch ;)
06:22<planetmaker>:P
06:22<@Celestar>planetmaker: NASA also has COTS which means something completely different there.
06:22<@Celestar>"Commercial Orbital Transportation Systems"
06:22<planetmaker>comercially off the shelf?
06:22<planetmaker>eh :)
06:22<@Celestar>that's a program where NASA will likely be purchasing launch services off privately funded companies to bring supplies, experiments and possibly people to the ISS from 2010/2011.
06:23<planetmaker>:) I'm curious as of what and whether they really do that.
06:23<@Celestar>reducing cost to bring stuff up to the station by a factor of 10 compared to the shuttle.
06:23<@Celestar>planetmaker: in a year, we'll know.
06:24<planetmaker>but these flight opportunities are quite interesting - also for me :D
06:24<@Celestar>yeah, but a factor of 10 still means about 5 million bucks for a flight :P
06:24<planetmaker>reducing experimental costs by several orders of magnitude.
06:24<planetmaker>Celestar: that's nothing. A sounding rocket costs more.
06:24<@Celestar>currently, the average orbital experiment is around 10 million.
06:24<@Celestar>planetmaker: it does?
06:25<planetmaker>Yes. 2 ... 20 million depending upon type.
06:25<@Celestar>planetmaker: you get get ORBITAL launches for < 10million bucks.
06:25<@Celestar>(sub-ton)
06:25<@Celestar>< 7 million EUR actually.
06:26<planetmaker>well... that's about the same price, is it :)
06:26<@Celestar>yeah
06:26<planetmaker>and a 10 minute sounding rocket is nearly orbital. Just add a bit more fuel and you're there.
06:26<@Celestar>currently prices is $8 million for 420kg LEO and $9 million for 1000kg LEO.
06:26<planetmaker>you got something like 200km altitude.
06:26<@Celestar>but not nearly 8km/sec
06:27<planetmaker>don't ask me for payload weight.
06:27<@Celestar>a ton is a shitload :P
06:27<planetmaker>I guess it's higher as mostly sounding rockes house more than one experiment.
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06:28<@Celestar>heh. Virgin Galactic will give your expermient and yourself a 5 minute suborbital flight for about 200.000 bucks.
06:28<planetmaker>indeed a very interesting offer. Once it really comes to that we'll jump to it.
06:29<@Celestar>I just hope their damn "spaceship" has mountings to add scientific payload.
06:29<ccfreak2k>It ought to get your motors running.
06:29<planetmaker>substitute a person by payload. That's fine. Things are already discussed in that respect :)
06:29<@Celestar>:D
06:29<ccfreak2k>It might even lift your spirits.
06:29<@Celestar>I want one of those flights :(
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06:30<dih>my experiment is to take yorick and throw him out when we're up there - who's gonna join in the 200K?
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06:30<@Celestar>dih: he WILL re-enter, you know :P
06:30-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
06:30<dih>he will not - no way!
06:30<dih>i have an ever better experiment
06:30<ccfreak2k>What doesn't vaporize will.
06:30<planetmaker>[11:29] <Celestar> I want one of those flights :( <-- me too :)
06:30<@Celestar>even HE can't fart badly enough to propel him to escape velocity.
06:30<dih>tie him to the roters of a helicopter :-D
06:30<dih>of tie him underneath the rocket
06:31<dih>but that is too little joy
06:31<dih>only lasts about a second
06:31<@Rubidium>Celestar: but... to quote a famous person: "that's toast"
06:31<@Celestar>hah
06:31<planetmaker>lunch time. CU later guys :)
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06:31<dih>Rubidium: we found a trigger - "toast" makes pm want food!
06:34<TrueBrain>blathijs: I fail to run 'xmonad' ... it doesn't boot or gives an error :(
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06:39<blathijs>~hmm, weird
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06:42<TrueBrain>well, what ever .. debian lenny package is broken, stupid debian
06:42<TrueBrain>reminds me to install Gentoo soon
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06:43<blathijs>TrueBrain: Didn't try xmonad myself yet, it's still on the list :-)
06:44<TrueBrain>hehe
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07:50<TrueBrain>lalalalala
07:51<SpComb>do re mi fa so la te do
07:51<TrueBrain>off key
07:51-!-fjb_ is now known as fjb
07:52<SpComb>rather
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08:08<Tekky>I have a compilation problem of the ICU package on Windows: The OpenTTD project file seems to assume that ICU is a static library called libicu.lib, but when I compile ICU, it produces several DLLs, none of which is called ICU. Instead, the ICU package seems to consist of several DLLs.
08:09<Tekky>But the OpenTTD Visual C++ 2008 project file seems to assume the ICU package consists of one static library....
08:11<@Rubidium>Tekky: have you read the instructions in the openttd-useful-2.0-source.zip?
08:13<@Rubidium>I suppose not
08:13<Tekky>no, I'm downloading it now :)
08:14<Tekky>I only read the wiki page on Visual C++ 2008.
08:14<Tekky>and the ICU documentation.
08:14<@Rubidium>though I wonder why you want to go through the trouble of manually building the libraries
08:15<Tekky>ah, thx, that explains everything....
08:16<Tekky>I wanted to enable global optimizations, that's why :)
08:18<Tekky>The library must be compiled with global optimizations active, if I want to apply them to the library....
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08:19<@petern>somehow i suspect it doesn't matter muc
08:19<@petern>+h
08:20<@Rubidium>and I reckon you need MSVC 2008 static libraries to do the global optimisations too, right?
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08:21<Tekky>yes, they must have been made specifically for Visual C++ 2008.
08:22<@Rubidium>oh, so no point in remaking the distributed libraries then ;)
08:22<Tekky>I'm not sure whether VC++ 2008 Service Pack 1 is compatible with the non-SP1
08:22<@Rubidium>Tekky: make sure you build all libs according to the 'guidelines' in the source.zip, otherwise it will not link
08:23<Tekky>yes, thx....
08:24<Tekky>I've compiled the other libraries already, it just was libicu.lib I was having trouble with....
08:34<Tekky>because I didn't know that libicu.lib is supposed to export the same symbols as icuuc40.dll.
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08:37<welshdragon2>awesome
08:37<welshdragon2>i have a bot battle in #simsig
08:42<welshdragon2>they killed each other :(
08:45<welshdragon2>it's started again
08:46<welshdragon2>Tekky, i'd enable flood protection, this could get nasty
08:48-!-welshdragon2 is now known as welshdragon
08:48<Tekky>hehe
08:51<welshdragon>that was nasty
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09:14*Celestar yawns
09:17<dih>good yawning
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09:24<Tekky>damn, I just compiled all libraries myself for use with OpenTTD, but now I noticed the default calling convention (stdcall, fastcall, cdecl) was not set properly everywhere.... I guess I will just use the latest openttd_useful.zip, even if these libraries do not support global optimizations.....
09:26<ln>np: Soviet Estonia national anthem
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09:36<@Rubidium>Tekky: that's why I said you should follow the "guidelines" in the source zip
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09:39<Tekky>I thought I could handle it myself, but I didn't think of the function calling convention. Next time, I should listen to you better, Rubidium. :-)
09:41<@Rubidium>it had taken me a few days to figure out how to make linkable static libs ;)
09:42<@Rubidium>and then we found out that MSVC 2005 doesn't work with the 2008 libs so I could do it all over; luckily I had written down the important steps, i.e. the guidelines and then I was done in about 2 hours including installing MSVC 2005
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09:48<Char>!servers
09:49<Char>hmmm
09:49<Char>whats the stuff that is put in the topic?
09:49<ln>"english only"?
09:49<Ammler>Char: that are subdomains
09:49<Char>like: Gameservers: servers
09:49<Char>ah i see....
09:49<Ammler>those
09:49<Aali>you're looking for servers.openttd.org
09:49<Char>:)
09:49<Char>got it, thanks
09:53<dih>cute... :-P
09:54<Char>?
09:56<@Belugas>wow... he did say thanks :D
09:56<@Belugas>indeed, cute ;)
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10:00<dih>:-)
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10:11<@Celestar>hm.
10:13<@Celestar>is FS#2383 noAI related?
10:13<@Rubidium>no idea
10:13<@Rubidium>although it segfaults in ntdll.dll
10:15<@Rubidium>and it's a noai binary
10:15<@Celestar>great :P
10:15<@Rubidium>though I suspect it's something with fibers
10:16<Tekky>Rubidium: 2 hours is not much, I normally spend a lot more time with such problems :)
10:17<@Rubidium>Tekky: you need more than 2 hours to "simply" install MSVC and build a few libraries according to a manual?
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10:17<Tekky>Rubidium: Yes, because things normally don't work as planned :)
10:19<@Rubidium>Tekky: if you make a manual how to do something and then do it again too?
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10:24<Tekky>Rubidium: Yes, maybe I should do that in future. ;-) Well, one of the main problems I had was that the assmbler versions of zlib did not compile with MS Visual C++ 2008. I was only able to fix it after finding this page on the internet: http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=166511
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10:25<Tekky>Rubidium: it took me more than a day to find out what was wrong :)
10:27<Tekky>Rubidium: The source code of zlib was not compatible with the assembler shipped with Visual C++ 2008 and I spent most of the time trying to find a different assembler program. Instead, all I had to do was to change the line:
10:27<Tekky>MOVD mm4,[esp+0]
10:27<Tekky>to
10:27<Tekky>MOVD mm4, DWORD PTR [esp+0]
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10:28<@Rubidium>wow... didn't know Microsoft allows assembly in C#
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10:31<Tekky>Rubidium: I was mainly mislead by the fact that in the zlib project, the assembler files were listed as "Assembler Files (Unsupported)". Therefore, I thought I had to find a proper assembler program and the zlib library documentation stated that I had to install the Visual C++ 6.0 Processor Pack. But I was unable to find any such thing for Visual C++ 2008.... now I know that was because it...
10:31<Tekky>...is preinstalled. :)
10:33<Tekky>by the way, is there any way to explicitly give a hint to the compiler to optimize for the case that an if-condition will be false or true?
10:33<@Rubidium>for gcc there is
10:34<@Rubidium>for MSVC: I don't know and I don't care
10:34<Tekky>good.... I find it strange that I was unable to find any such possibility in Visual C++.....
10:35<@Rubidium>#define likely(x) __builtin_expect(!!(x), 1)
10:36<@Rubidium>that's for gcc
10:36<@Rubidium>though ICC seems to be supporting that too
10:42<Tekky>In Visual C++, I found the __assume(condition) intrinsic, but that is not what I wanted. I want the compiler/optimizer to optimize for a certain case and assume that the non-optimized case will occur only very seldomly. But the __assume intrinsic does not do that. Instead, it assumes that the non-optimized case will NEVER occur.
10:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14540 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs):
10:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Codechange: introduce [v]seprintf which are like [v]snprintf but do return the
10:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: number of characters written instead of the number of characters that would be
10:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: written; as size_t is unsigned substraction can cause integer underflows quite
10:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: quickly.
10:43<Tekky>Rubidium: the gcc code that you just posted, does that also assume that the non-optimized case will NEVER occur? Or SELDOMLY occur?
10:44<@Rubidium>seldomly I think; don't know exactly, I ripped it from the linux kernel code
10:46<Tekky>it would seem logical to me to, for example, to give the optimizer a hint that the condition in an assertion will normally be true and it should therefore optimize accordingly.
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10:48<Tekky>However, this does not mean that the optimizer can be sure that the condition will ALWAYS be true. Otherwise, the optimizer could optimize away the whole assertion.
10:49<SmatZ>yeah, I was considering replacing assert() by __builtin_expect(!!(x), 0) when compiled without asserts
10:49<SmatZ>it is only a branch hint I think
10:51<@Rubidium>http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Other-Builtins.html <- yes it's branch prediction
10:51<Tekky>ah, yes... I found this page too: http://sources.redhat.com/ml/libc-hacker/2000-04/msg00129.html
10:51<Tekky>it does exactly what I want.....
10:51<Tekky>in contrast to the MSVC++ 2008 __assume intrinsic....
10:52<Tekky>SmatZ: Why only when compiled without asserts?
10:53<Tekky>SmatZ: I think it makes also sense to use __builtin_expect with all asserts....
10:54<@Rubidium>I think it makes sense that assert should be implemented with such a builtin_expect
10:54<Tekky>SmatZ: Please look at http://sources.redhat.com/ml/libc-hacker/2000-04/msg00129.html
10:55<Tekky>SmatZ: There, it is recommended to use __builtin_expect for all error handling.... so also for assertions.
10:55<@Rubidium>gcc says it's not recommended to use __builtin_expect
10:56<@Rubidium>but rather use profiles to determine what to expect
10:56*petern would expect almost no benefit :P
10:58*Rubidium wonders what microsoft means with "alphabetical listing"
10:58<@Celestar>I guess Microsoft wonders that too :P
10:58<keyweed_>whatever sequence they have the patent for
10:58<@petern>one would assume a list in alphabetical order
10:58<@Rubidium>just a small preview of the "alphabetical listing": __nop, __ud2, __lidt, __sidt, __halt
10:58<keyweed_>no, that has prior art, can't be patented
10:59<Tekky>Rubidium: Well, since most of us compile without profiles, I think using __builtin_except would be the best solution. The compile farms must compile without any profiling information, don't they?
11:00<SmatZ>Tekky: gcc guesses branch probability
11:00<@Rubidium>yes, it isn't profiled
11:00<@Rubidium>though a compile cycle already takes more than enough time ;)
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11:02<@Rubidium>anyhow...
11:02<@Rubidium>I rather see macro level optimisations than micro level optimisations
11:04<Tekky>as far as I can tell, gcc does not have an equivalent to the __assume intrinsic of Visual C++ and Visual C++ does not have an equivalent to the __builtin_expect intrinsic. I think both intrinsics would be useful.
11:07<SmatZ>I have seen likely() and unlikely() using builting expect...
11:08<SmatZ>now looking at usage of __builtin_expect, I am not sure if it can be used as statement
11:08<SmatZ>eg. I get tons of "ixedsizearray.hpp:90: warning: statement has no effect" warnings
11:08<SmatZ>when I #define assert(expr) __builtin_expect(!(expr), 1)
11:08<SmatZ>maybe this was the reason why I gave up that idea...
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11:09<SmatZ>errrr #define assert(expr) __builtin_expect(!(expr), 0)
11:11<SmatZ>errr the first was correct...
11:11<@petern>well
11:11<@petern>why do you expect that to work?
11:12<SmatZ>there are places where gcc uses autovectorization
11:12<SmatZ>when working with large data blocks
11:12<SmatZ>but it first has to verify data are aligned
11:12<@petern>huh?
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11:12<SmatZ>phone :)
11:13<SmatZ>example is the 32bpp blitter ... when autovectorization is done by gcc, the code is much slower
11:14<SmatZ>because it does checks for size and alignment of data
11:14<SmatZ>so if it was possible to tell it data are always aligned, it would make code fater
11:14<SmatZ>*faster
11:15<SmatZ>it could be like "assert((((size_t)ptr) & 15) == 0"
11:15<Aali>__builtin_expect only affects branches, AFAIK
11:15<SmatZ>seems so :)
11:15<SmatZ>it would be nice if you could tell the compiler something is sure
11:16<SmatZ>not just "very likely"
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11:23<batti5>a question, do we have to use midi in openttd, i suggest its should ogg or some digital file
11:24<+glx>batti5: original music files are midi
11:24<+glx>and there's no replacement yet, so no need for another format
11:24<SmatZ>batti5: run winamp in background :)
11:25<batti5>but midi is a real chalange for linux
11:25<@Belugas>indeed, batti5. There are other programs that can deal with far more audio file types, and way better too.
11:26<batti5>linux can handel all exept midi
11:26<@Rubidium>yeah, maybe we should add a spreadsheet and word processing program to OpenTTD
11:26<Mortal>I usually play these high-quality midi renderings of the OST in the background while playing the game
11:26<@Rubidium>batti5: go read the readme
11:27<batti5>i tried timidity but im stuck
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11:27<@Rubidium>timidity works for me
11:28<@petern>it all works great with my old sb live ;)
11:28<batti5>i may need some help with it "timidity"
11:28<Tekky><SmatZ> it would be nice if you could tell the compiler something is sure <--- That is exactly what the __assume intrinsic in Visual C++ does. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any gcc equivalent.
11:28<+glx>yes midi works fine on linux if you have the right hardware
11:29<@petern>it also works fine if you know how to set it up
11:29<batti5>openttd can work with fluidsynth?
11:29<@petern>almost a card that supports hardware mixing is handy
11:29<@petern>*although
11:29<@petern>any midi synth will work
11:30<@Rubidium>Tekky: if something is sure we either assert on it or go into NOT_REACHED()
11:30<@petern>whether it'll sound good is another matter
11:30<@Rubidium>and gcc should be able to use the asserts to determine assumptions I'd say (whether it does is something else)
11:30<batti5>my card dont has midi, in windoze i used microsoft synthethiser
11:31<@petern>batti5, set up dmix first, then alsa can combine the audio and music together
11:31<batti5>how?
11:31<@petern>rtfm
11:31<+glx>timidity is like mssynth
11:31<SmatZ>Rubidium: yes, but it still leaves the check there
11:32<@Rubidium>assert doesn't leave checks behind
11:32<@Rubidium>or somebody did check on something that assert already checks
11:33<batti5>whare can i get dmix?
11:33<@petern>you already have it
11:33<@petern>it just needs setting up
11:34<@petern>or using pulseaudio's a possibility i suppose.
11:35<batti5>no alsa
11:35<batti5>,
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11:35<@petern>not alsa?
11:35<@petern>hmm
11:35<@petern>so some ancient version of linux then
11:35<@petern>or a crappy card
11:36<batti5>yes,but i ment no pulseaudio
11:36<batti5>i use alsa
11:36<batti5>and oss
11:37<batti5>i have kubuntu 8.1
11:38<batti5>so how can i setup dmix?
11:40<@petern>ask google
11:40<@Belugas>have you searched on google, wiki or others?
11:40<batti5>ok
11:40<blathijs>Tekky: There has been some dicussion on the LLVM mailing list recently about exactly that (LLVM is a compiler project that provides a gcc backend as well as other component)
11:40<blathijs>Tekky: The __assume thing
11:41<Tekky>blathijs: And what was the result of the discussion?
11:41<blathijs>Not finished yet :-)
11:41<Tekky>ah, so they do intend to implement it? Cool....
11:41<blathijs>They agreed it would be good to have something like it, but it probably just needs someone to code it :-)
11:41<SmatZ>blathijs: are things from LLVM ported to gcc?
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11:42<batti5>but the original midi files are copyrighted, arent thay going to get replaced like grfs?
11:42<SmatZ>or do you expect LLVM to replace (or merge with) GCC once :)
11:42<blathijs>SmatZ: I don't think so. This would be mostly implemented in the LLVM optimizers, and that's not backportable to gcc
11:44<@Belugas>batti5, it might eventually, but it's really not a priority
11:44<@petern>batti5, unlikely, as the game works perfectly well without them
11:44<@Rubidium>batti5: even the new grfs are copyrighted
11:44<@petern>and, of course, open source and less restrictive licenses do not mean 'not copyrighted'
11:44<@Belugas>pkus, someone still have to compose such replacement music :)
11:45<@Belugas>and frankly, my guitar playing does not fit with Openttd :D
11:45<@petern>my keyboard playing fits nowhere :(
11:45<batti5>i understand now
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11:47<@Belugas>poor petern :) we'll improve that, once, i'll cross the waters ;)
11:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14541 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_func.h): -Fix (r14540): mingw didn't like it :(
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause>although i have a good musical education, i found composing is beyond my abilities
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>my brother seems quite good at it, though
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12:04<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14542 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp music/os2_m.cpp network/network_gui.cpp win32.cpp): -Codechange: replace some sprintf with s[en]printf to make sure they will not overflow their buffers.
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12:26<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14543 /branches/noai/ (49 files in 8 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14519:14542
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12:48<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14544 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/ai_squirrel.cpp console_cmds.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix [FS#2384]: segfault due to overflow when doing list_ai in the console.
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13:32<Eddi|zuHause>gaaaah... i hate when svn conflict resolving tries to merge two totally unrelated changes just by blank lines... you get the two changes totally interleaved
13:34<Aali>i've found that tortoisemerge does me more harm than good
13:34<Aali>much more comfortable with the source and a .rej file in my favourite text editor
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>tortoise merge has an entirely different problem...
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>it lacks a "edit these lines" option
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>(at least the last time i tried)
13:43<Aali>well, you can edit lines
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>back when i used tortoise, you could only choose "take this line" or "take other line"
13:45<Aali>it has come a long way since then
13:46<Aali>but its still missing alot of features
13:47<Aali>(or was, back when i used it ;))
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14:10<batti5>whare original grfs added in linux?
14:10<Ammler>~/openttd/data or
14:10<Ammler>(missing dot)
14:11<ln>english only, bitte.
14:11<batti5>No such file or directory
14:11<dih>~/.openttd/data
14:11<Ammler>then create one
14:11<dih>but that is not the place for the original grf's
14:11<Ammler>batti5: if it is a multiuser system you can add them also to
14:11<dih>they should be in /usr/games
14:11<Ammler>hmm
14:12<batti5>dih: /user/games no openttd thare
14:12<batti5>should i create it?
14:12<+glx>where is openttdw.grf?
14:13<Ammler>batti5: /usr/share/games/openttd
14:13<Ammler>and you might need to create the data folder
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14:15<Ammler>batti5: usr not user
14:15<batti5>it still asks for it
14:17<batti5>it dont works
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>batti5: answer glx's question
14:19<batti5>i dont know whare opentttdw is, i alrady said it
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>well find it...
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>how did you install openttd?
14:20<batti5>apt
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>and does this give information on where it installed it?
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14:20<batti5>no
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>a file list of some sort?
14:20<batti5>no
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure it does
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>you just have to ask it nicely
14:23<batti5>how?
14:24-!-welshdragon [~vista@87.102.21.185] has joined #openttd
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>that i can't tell you
14:24<batti5>ok
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14:26<Char2>hmmm
14:27<Char2>is there an easy way to replace all engines by newer ones?
14:27<+glx>same model or not?
14:28<Char2>same model
14:28<Char2>like
14:29<+glx>set autorenew in advanced/patches settings
14:29<Char2>i want to replace all the steam engines running on my main line by diesel ones
14:29<Char2>ah
14:29<Char2>that way same model
14:29<Char2>no
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>that is different model
14:29<+glx>you want to use autoreplace indeed
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>the steam engine is the old model, the diesel engine is a different model
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14:30<Eddi|zuHause>go to the vehicle list, click on "manage list" and there on "replace vehicles"
14:31<batti5>im back, it was just a reboot
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>blasphemy!
14:34-!-Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
14:36<Char2>Eddi|zuHause: thanks a lot :)
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14:38<batti5>it works now
14:39<batti5>it was /usr/share/games/openttd
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14:44<SmatZ>[19:13:16] <Ammler> batti5: /usr/share/games/openttd
14:46<@Rubidium>SmatZ: you haven't figured out yet that he doesn't read but guesses what one says? He probably typed it as /user/chair/gamez/opentdd or so
14:46<SmatZ>hehe
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14:52<Wolf01>'night
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14:52<ln>... not
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15:24<Aali>Yexo
15:25<Yexo>yes?
15:25<Aali>AdmiralAI wont build rail :/
15:26<Yexo>did it build a rail station yet?
15:26<Aali>it just keeps spitting out the name of every industry on the map followed by true and a seemingly random number
15:26<Aali>it doesn't build anything
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15:28<Aali>noai-r14544
15:28<Aali>some grfs loaded, mostly stations and japan set
15:28<Yexo>I've never seen that behaviour
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15:29<Yexo>let me update to r14544 first
15:29<Ammler>yexo is alive :-)
15:29<Yexo>Ammler: I still am :) Just not that active in #openttd
15:29<Ammler>next noaicomp soon?
15:29<@Belugas>evil as i oxey
15:30<Yexo>sounds like a plan :)
15:30<Ammler>trains against trains souds like fair competition now.
15:30<Yexo>the coop team will still win from the AI
15:31<Char>hmmm
15:31<Char>just a question
15:31<Char>are you guys always trying to connect the industries furthest away from each other to each other?
15:32<Char>or just like it fits?
15:32<Aali>Yexo: i figured the only thing that could cause it is RailRouteBuilder::BuildPath, but i'm not familiar with squirrel or the noai API so i dont know why its happening
15:33<Yexo>Aali: it works fine here. can you upload a savegame somewhere (or pm on tt-forums)?
15:33<Yexo>and it never reaches RailRouteBuidler::BuildPath as long as no stations are build
15:33<Aali>its probably one of my patches then (so no, no savegame :P)
15:34<Aali>thats weird
15:34<Yexo>what patches are you running with?
15:35<@Belugas>hem... nicotine patch, eucalyptus patch, and a tire's patch, just in case
15:38-!-lobster_MB [~michielbr@86.89.201.189] has quit [Quit: COCKBUSTER SLEEP MODE]
15:39<Aali>improved breakdowns, ITiM, IS, more conditional orders, routemarker and a few UI patches that should have no effect on the AI
15:39<Yexo>improved breakdowns, is and more conditional orders shouldn't have any effect on rail building either
15:40<Yexo>neither should routemarkers
15:40<Aali>thats what i'm thinking
15:40<Yexo>what is ITiM ?
15:40<Aali>improved timetable management
15:40<Yexo>can you give me a diff against plain noai?
15:40<Aali>let me try a clean noai binary with the same grfs
15:41<Yexo>good idea ;)
15:42-!-De_Ghosty [~s@76-10-140-222.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #openttd
15:45<Aali>..and now its working
15:45<Aali>:/
15:45<Aali>odd
15:46<@Belugas>buwhahhaha!
15:46<Aali>it does print some errors now and then though
15:46<@Belugas>apprentice sorcerer!
15:46<Aali>but it doesn't stop building stuff
15:46<Yexo>printing errors is normal behaviour
15:47<Aali>"Save function should return a table" followed by a long list of gibberish
15:47<Yexo>saving is not supported in v14
15:48<Aali>right
15:48<Yexo>actually the AI crashes in the save function, but because it is in the save function it can continue running after that
15:49-!-Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-75-74-51-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
15:49<Nite_Owl>Hello all
15:50<Char>hi
15:50<Aali>Yexo: the station thing gave me a pretty good clue though
15:50<Aali>distant join is not just a UI patch ;)
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15:51<Yexo>ah, so that is it :)
15:52<Aali>we'll see
15:54<Aali>still shouldn't cause the AI to think it had built a station when it obviously had not
15:54<Aali>but its the only thing i can think of
15:54<Yexo>it didn't think it build a station
15:55<Yexo>that's the whole problem, It tried to build a station near every mine it could find, but building the station always failed
15:55-!-mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
15:55<Aali>but you said buildpath is never reached if it hasn't built stations?
15:55<Yexo>most likely distant join also needs some changes in api code, but since the patch is for trunk, it doesn't include those changes
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>where is the function that flattens the area when an industry is built?
15:56<Yexo>Aali: and you said it didn't build any rails at all?
15:56<Aali>Yexo: it didn't build a thing
15:56<Yexo>exactly, and building a station is done before pathfinding / building a route
15:57-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43482.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
15:57<Aali>so where did that message come from?
15:57<Yexo>the message is printed as first thing in the station build function
15:57<Yexo>stationmanager::_GetStationNearIndustry or so
15:57<Aali>oh, right, i see it now
15:57<Yexo>s/stationmanager/trainmanager/
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16:02<Aali>it does build airports and bus/truckstops if i enable that though
16:02<Aali>which is odd, since distant join modifies all station building commands
16:03<Yexo>I'll have a look at the distant join stations patch
16:03<Aali>i'm looking at it right now, dont worry about it
16:04<Aali>i'll get to the bottom of this :P
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16:05<Yexo>it's easy: for rail stations, the meaning of p1 and p2 are changed. For the other types (road stops, airports and docks) a previously unused part of p2 now has a meaning
16:05<Aali>yeah, i was just going to say that
16:06<Yexo>should be a pretty easy fix in src/ai/api/ai_rail.cpp
16:06<@Belugas>me too, me too!!
16:06<Aali>indeed
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i think i screwed something up: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/wrong.png
16:11<Aali>nice ore mine
16:12<frosch123>ho, eddi you are lucky, not so long ago you would have triggered an assertion
16:12<fjb>Earthquake?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yeah, i wondered why it doesn't choke on the double foundations :p
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: no, i wanted to change the level function to not level 1 tile too much on each side
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>i can't explain this behaviour, though
16:15<fjb>At least it doesn't level mch...
16:15<fjb>much
16:15<Eddi|zuHause> cur_tile = tile;// + TileDiffXY(-1, -1);
16:15<Eddi|zuHause> size_x = max_x;// + 4;
16:15<Eddi|zuHause> size_y = max_y;// + 4;
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>this is my modification
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>in industry_cmd.cpp:CheckIfCanLevelIndustryPlatform
16:16<frosch123>h = TileHeight(tile); <- you should modify that too
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>why? that checks the top corner of the supposed industry
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>i changed the +4 to +2 now, it seems to work properly
16:18<@petern>feh
16:18<@petern>who says farms can't be built on hills
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>petern: afair there's a[t least one] thread in the suggestions forum ;)
16:19<Aali>great..
16:19<Aali>now they build stations
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16:20<Eddi|zuHause>cool... a town with one road and two parks... 0 inhabitants
16:20<Aali>the pathfinder is awfully slow on 2048x2048 maps though
16:22<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: now have fun to make it grow :)
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16:22<Aali>and one of them built the station too far away from the mine, so it doesn't get cargo
16:22<Aali>smooth
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16:28<@Belugas>miaooow
16:28<Aali>Yexo: is this something one should expect when two or more AI's choose the same route?
16:28-!-Hirundo [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:29<Aali>because they keep doing it
16:29<Yexo>no, that's a bug
16:29<Aali>maybe i got the orientation bit wrong
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16:32<Yexo>Aali: I just rechecked on plain noai and all stations are build correctly
16:32<Aali>yeah i messed up
16:32<Aali>my bad
16:34*fjb thiks about merging noai and cargodest.
16:34<fjb>thninks
16:34<fjb>thinks
16:34<fjb>I should stop typing today.
16:34<Aali>yes
16:35<Aali>yes you should
16:35<Yexo>fjb: you want a cargodest diff for noai?
16:35<fjb>yes :-)
16:36<Yexo>I'll upload a diff in the cargodest thread
16:36<Aali>how much do you have to change to get that working?
16:36<fjb>Cool.
16:37*fjb starts a noai checkout.
16:37<Aali>or do they work together without any hacks?
16:38<Yexo>fjb: here you go: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39161&p=739848#p739848
16:38<Yexo>Aali: only a few lines
16:38<fjb>Great! Thank you.
16:38<Aali>nice
16:38<Yexo>2 conflicts with includes (just add them together), and one conflict in train_cmd.cpp
16:39<Aali>even though i dont really "get" cargodest (whats the point, you still control what goes where?) i'll have a look at that
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16:41<Yexo>the point is that you can finally build a proper network without having to worry about transfer orders and transporting all passengers with your busses so your trains leave empty
16:42<fjb>Transfering valuables between banks is also finally working.
16:43-!-KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-118-93.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
16:43<fjb>And you can build an airport far away from each town and support it by trains or busses.
16:48<Tekky>what does "NoAI" stand for? Wouldn't the name "NewAI" be more appropriate? :)
16:49<Yexo>NoAI is just the name of the framework providing an API so new AIs can be developed.
16:49<frosch123>it is the short form of "no crappy ais anymore" :p
16:50<fjb>Wouldn't that be ncaa? :-)
16:50<Aali>Yexo: i know this has been mentioned on the forums already, but your AI should really build the depots on the other track (other side)
16:50<Yexo>if all is well, it builds depots on the tracks both way
16:51<Yexo>so two depots per route
16:51<Aali>yes, but the depot should be at the exit of the loading station
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16:51<Yexo>that depends on how you look at it
16:52<Yexo>currently every train has a service order in the depot after the unload station, so it is only serviced when empty
16:52<Aali>reliability goes down _alot_ when the train is loading though
16:52<Yexo>that is more realistic then servicing a fully loaded train
16:52<Yexo>and I never play with breakdowns on :)
16:52<Yexo>I should do that maybe
16:53<Aali>its not that much of a problem with improved breakdowns, but it does make it less efficient
16:53<Aali>atleast for low-speed trains
16:54<fjb>What happens if I load a save with old ais into a noai game?
16:54<Yexo>for every old ai a new ai is loaded that takes over the company
16:55<Yexo>however, admiralai won't take over maintenance of already exisitng rail routes, so it'll just leave them there for always (it won't replace or renew the trains)
16:55<Aali>segfault
16:55<Aali>awesome
16:55<Yexo>hmm, glx fixed a segfault with loading old saves in r14538
16:56<Aali>not related to your discussion :P
16:56<Aali>my ottd just segfaulted while i was watching the AI
16:56<Yexo>ah ;)
16:56<fjb>Hm, doesn't compile: src/aircraft_cmd.cpp:41:21: routing.h: No such file or directory
16:57<Yexo>fjb: I'll upload a new diff in a moment
16:57<fjb>Ok
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16:58<Aali>Yexo: also, i noticed your AI built som strange tracks when the map got crowded
16:58<+glx>Yexo: it was not a segfault, just a load failure
16:59<Aali>it was probably trying to build something and the other AI messed it up
16:59<Yexo>Aali: hard to fix, except by disabling building altogether when no nice (=short) route can be found
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17:00<Yexo>glx: you're right
17:00<Aali>ended up with a piece of unsignaled track in the middle of everything
17:00<Aali>and trains were using it as a bidirectional shortcut to get to/from a station :P
17:01<+glx>(and it was my fault ;) )
17:01<Yexo>sometimes it found a route, begins building it, and halfway the building fails (maybe because another ai build something, or because a town build a new house). In such cases, pathfinding will restart
17:01<Yexo>and trains were using it as a bidirectional shortcut to get to/from a station :P <- that should never happen
17:01<Yexo>can you post a screenshot? (I won't ask again for a savegame :p)
17:01<Aali>almost looked like a deliberate hackjob
17:01<Aali>well, that game kinda segfaulted
17:01<Aali>so it might have bigger problems ;)
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17:02<Aali>i'll try to reproduce it with a debug build
17:02<Yexo>with all the patches you have, hard to say :)
17:03<@Rubidium>Aali: don't forget to run it in gdb
17:03<Yexo>just run a debug build in gdb and you'll know were it segfaulted
17:03<Aali>yeah, its probably not your fault :P
17:03<Aali>Rubidium: windows
17:03<Yexo>so? gdb works perfectly fine in cygwin (and probably mingw)
17:03<@Rubidium>oh, then you're probably getting screwed by their fiber implementation
17:03<Aali>and i know how to use gdb
17:04<Aali>but the VS debugger is just soo much better
17:07<@petern>lies
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17:09<Aali>petern: what does gdb have that the VS debugger doesn't?
17:10<@Rubidium>support for unix?
17:11<Aali>and i'm not debugging a unix application, so thats kinda irrelevant
17:11<@petern>no stupid gui that gets in the way
17:12<Aali>its one of the better parts of the VS GUI, actually
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17:13<Aali>it doesn't even have nag screens
17:16<Aali>and i find it helps that output from the debugger is separate from code and watch lists
17:18<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: did you manage to get your patch working?
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17:18<Eddi|zuHause>the industry flattening? yes, it works with +2 instead of +4
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause>i asume that's because the tileloop is not "inclusive"
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17:19<Yexo>you have a diff somewhere?
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17:25<Aali>Yexo: i haven't been able to reproduce it, but i noticed that unused track is left if the AI can't connect to the station
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: it's really a trivial change...
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>but i can prepare a diff
17:26<Yexo>Aali: correct, but that is by design (it might be able to reuse the track for another route)
17:28<Aali>Yexo: so it probably just happened to build tracks for another route that ended up serving as an alternate path for some trains
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17:28<Yexo>in theory that can happen, but it is very unlikely
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/industry_level.diff
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause>should be a -p1 patch
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17:31<Aali>Yexo: indeed, but its not doing any other weird stuff
17:32<Aali>that seems to be the only situation where it ends up with unsignaled, unconnected track
17:32*dih hugs petern
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17:52<Eddi|zuHause>with new railtypes, engines should maybe have more states than just "powered" and "unpowered"
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. rack railways are usually also "powered" on conventional rails, but have a lot less tractive effort
17:53<fjb>Randomly powerd? :-)
17:54<fjb>Which ais should I try beside admiralai?
17:55<@Rubidium>fjb: rondje :)
17:55<fjb>What is that?
17:56<Yexo>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=39756
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18:05<fjb>rondje sounds like fun.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>i could place stations in rough terrain much more easily if they could bend...
18:13<Aali>Yexo: what would cause your AI to place signs? (labeled 1, 2, and 3)
18:13<Yexo>it tried to build rail on the tile labeled "2" which should connect tiles "1" and "3", but building that rail failed
18:14<Aali>right
18:14<Aali>it was trying to build a diagonal track over a road tile
18:15<Yexo>fjb: NoCap is a very good AI too (but roadvehicles only)
18:15<Aali>i guess the pathfinder ran before the road was constructed
18:15<Yexo>Aali: most likely that road tiles was build very recently (either by another ai, by you, or by a town)
18:15<fjb>I'm trying admiralai, nocab, rondje and pathzilla now.
18:16<dih>nininininini
18:16<Aali>Yexo: not too recent, but there's a window, i dont think its a bug :P
18:16<fjb>NoCAB gives me an Error...
18:17<Yexo>fjb: what kind? I was just trying nocap and it works here
18:17<fjb>And WrightAI has a big problem in 1883. :-)
18:17<Yexo>wrightai is just an example ai
18:17<fjb>"Index 'pathFixer' does not exist"
18:18<Yexo>it'll also have problems when in 1980+ when "always allow small airports" is disabled
18:20<fjb>Can you not switch to bigger airports then?
18:21<fjb>Oh, the problem with NoCAB may be that it got what the old ai left over...
18:21<Yexo>fjb: I was talking about wrightai. AdmiralAI builds bigger airports as soon as it can
18:22<Yexo>fjb: that can be a problem indeed
18:22<Yexo>but if it crashed, you should report it (including the original savegame) in the correct forum thread
18:23<fjb>Hm, how long does it take for admiralai before it starts to build vehicles?
18:23<Yexo>it should first build a route before it can build vehicles :p
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18:26<ccfreak2k>There.
18:26<ccfreak2k>Moved over to my new host.
18:28<Aali>Yexo: you should probably make it build one-way pbs signals all over
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>@openttd log 2800
18:28<Aali>sometimes a train decides to go back all the way to the station it came from
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>no, i don't need an answer today...
18:29<Yexo>yes, that is a problem, but building one-way pbs signals all over creates other problems, as sometimes a jam can only be solved by one vehicles going backwards
18:29<Yexo>@openttd commit 2800
18:29<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Commit by tron :: r2800 trunk/lang/german.txt (2005-08-03 13:34:34 UTC)
18:29<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Further improvement of the german translation
18:29<dih>Eddi|zuHause, commit?
18:29<Aali>just put a one-way at the exit then
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>hm... that might be a reason ;)
18:30<dih>:-P
18:30<Aali>oh wait, that doesn't work either
18:30<Yexo>Aali: so not only the last, but also the first signal should be one-way. Good idea!
18:30<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: asking the right question is the clue to getting an answer from DorpsGek; it isn't a babyottd-like bot that just says things
18:30<Aali>Yexo: nah, then they wont go backwards
18:31<Yexo>they will, since the depot is after that signal
18:31<Aali>well, the depot is the end of the track
18:31<Yexo>hmm, right
18:31<Aali>so they would basically have to be in the station to go backwards into depot
18:33<Yexo>trains going backward shouldn't happen that much anyway, since (if all is well) a train will be sold if there are too many for the station
18:33<Aali>i guess
18:34<Aali>it happens quite alot in my current game but thats because i've been messing with the AI's tracks :P
18:35<Yexo>main problem is that trains are only sold in the AdmiralAI::DoMaintenance function, and that function isn't called while pathfinding (so if pathfinding takes very long, this can happen a lot)
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18:47<Char>hmmm
18:47<Char>a question
18:47<Char>signals are impossible to build on bridges, right?
18:47<Sacro>not impossible
18:47<Char>are they also impossible to build in tunnels?
18:47<Char>?
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>some road vehicles should be able to go backwards (i.e. jump to the other side, like when overtaking) in drive through stops
18:49<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: thats just asking for deadlocks
18:49<fjb>My wish for road vehicles is that articulated vehicles learn how to overtake.
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18:50<fjb>Char: No signals in tunnels or on bridges.
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18:51<Aali>Char: tunnels and bridges are "wormholes", there's actually no track there apart from the entrance and exit tiles
18:51<Char>oh
18:51<Char>so thats the reason
18:51<ln>*that's
18:52<Char>yeah, well, "that's" would be correct english, i agree :P
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen a patch that allowed the construction of signals on bridges
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>only the trains did not obey to them :p
18:52<Char>but then again, what about capital letters in the beginning of scentences?
18:52<Char>hmmm
18:52<Aali>i made a patch that allowed more than one train to enter a wormhole
18:53<Char>well, but that kindof sucks cause that means you always have to build multiple bridges...
18:53<Char>aali: but they might crash in the wormhole....
18:53<Aali>that was easy to fix, the problem was trains would crash when they came out of the wormhole :P
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18:54<@Rubidium>Char: did you know it kinda sucks when somebody says something sucks and then they don't do anything about it?
18:54<Aali>you could have 10 trains standing on top of each other at the exit, and when that signal became green, boom, 10 dead trains in a neat pile
18:58<SmatZ>om nom nom nom potatoes + salt + beer nom nom nom
18:59<SmatZ>I need a girlfriend who can cook :-x
18:59<@Rubidium>nom?
18:59-!-lobster_MB [~michielbr@86.89.201.189] has quit [Quit: COCKBUSTER SLEEP MODE]
18:59<SmatZ>I can't eat boiled potatoes my whole life...
19:00<SmatZ>Rubidium: http://www.omnomnomnom.com/ :-)
19:00<@Rubidium>then teach he to read ;)
19:00<SmatZ>hehe
19:01<@Rubidium>*her
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19:01<SmatZ>:-)
19:01-!-lobster_MB [~michielbr@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd
19:01<SmatZ>she must want to learn ..
19:01<@Rubidium>cooking isn't that hard
19:02<SmatZ>yeah... I can cook potatoes... and eggs... and sausage...
19:02<Aali>Yexo: http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/5306/unnamed9thnov1954dv9.png
19:02<@Rubidium>then you can also make pasta
19:02<SmatZ>but not sauces..
19:02<Aali>what do you think about that? :P
19:02<SmatZ>yeah... :-)
19:02<@Rubidium>SmatZ: just buy a jar
19:03<+glx>Aali: known bug I think
19:03<SmatZ>Rubidium: how can it help? :-)
19:03<@Rubidium>adds pasta to your menu ;)
19:03<Yexo>Aali: the train station was joined with the truck stop, and all my rail code excepts the tile under the station sign to be part of the rail station.
19:04<Yexo>glx: not known so far
19:04<SmatZ>ahh... yeah, I can cook spaghetti and I like it :-)
19:04<SmatZ>but I want my wife to cook, not me ;-)
19:04<Aali>Yexo: so it was basically trying to connect the truck stop with tracks?
19:04<+glx>Yexo: I'm quite sure I saw it reported on the forum
19:04<@Rubidium>SmatZ: just hide the potatos and such
19:05<@Rubidium>and only place the ingredients for pasta in the storage
19:05<@Rubidium>and tell her that you're not going to cook ;)
19:05<SmatZ>hehehe
19:05<SmatZ>:-D
19:05<Aali>easy fix would be to never join stations
19:05<@Rubidium>eventually she'll be so hungry she starts cooking it ;)
19:05<SmatZ>hehe
19:06<SmatZ>this one is weird, I will need a different one I guess ;-) (talking about girl :-(
19:06<Yexo>glx: Sirkoz reported "however there are still some problems with attaching the rail with rail stations", however, that was not the same issue
19:09<+glx>ok
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19:12<Char>Rubidium: if i was able to, i would do sth about it.
19:15<Yexo>Aali: do you know what part of the station was there first? the truck stop or the railway station?
19:16<Yexo>from the station sign I'd say the truck stop
19:16<Aali>Yexo: the truck stop
19:16<Aali>i saw it build the tracks
19:18<Yexo>this is strange, I just check my code and it shouldn't connect the train station to the truck stop
19:19<Yexo>are you sure you fixed the problems with distant joined stations ok?
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19:19<Aali>no, i was just going to say, its probably related to that :P
19:21<Yexo>there is two times "if (HasBit(p1, 24))" inside CmdBuildRailRoadStation, you should replace that with the correct new bit
19:22<Yexo>or in ai/api/ai_rail.cpp, replace if (!join_adjacent) p1 |= (1 << 24); with the correct bit
19:22<Aali>which i did but i might have gotten it wrong
19:23<Yexo>in ai/api/ai_rail.cpp, don't forget the function BuildNewGRFRailStation
19:23<Aali>the problem was i used the bool as a bit
19:23<Aali>join_adjacent << 24
19:24<Aali>but bools aren't just 0 or 1
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19:24<Yexo>the problem is more that it should be the other way around (!join_adjacent << 24)
19:25<Aali>err
19:25<Aali>yeah, might be that :P
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19:26<Aali>still i'm going to replace it with join_adjacent ? 0 : 1 just to be on the safe side
19:27<Yexo>you could also leave the original code intact
19:28<Aali>the meaning of the other bits in p1 is changed around, so the original code is already gone
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19:35<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14545 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2386]: road vehicles sometimes never got their "slots" deallocated causing RVs not going to depot for service.
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22:49<bleepy>blah
22:50<Aali>seconded
22:53<bleepy>marvellous, verdict carried
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22:54<Aali>finally figured out why my noai build is segfaulting
22:55<bleepy>yeah you lost me, I play the game, that's as far as I get
22:55<Aali>its an old memory corruption bug, one of my patches is doing it, and i dont know which one
22:55<Aali>fair enough
22:56<thingwath>it isn't hard to tell why something is segfaulting... simply it tries to use memory it doesn't have :o)
22:57<Aali>only happens with RVs so i kinda forgot about it since i hardly ever use those
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22:58<Aali>thingwath: that doesn't help debugging, though :P
22:58<thingwath>no, not much
22:58<Aali>you kind-of need to know that its the rs variable in ClearSlot that ends up containing garbage
22:59<thingwath>valgrind will tell, maybe. :o)
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23:01<Aali>hmm, i can't seem to be able to reproduce it in a debug build
23:02<Aali>thats my biggest problem right now
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23:04<thingwath>well, good luck :)
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23:04<Aali>thank you, i'm going to need it
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 29 00:00:05 2008