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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-02

---Logopened Sun Nov 02 00:00:16 2008
---Daychanged Sun Nov 02 2008
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05:50<Progman>is there a reason for a red topic instead of a normal one?
05:58<ln>the october revolution
05:58*Doorslammer hides
05:59<@Rubidium>red topic?
05:59<ln>i don't see such either.
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06:05<CIA-5>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r14553 /trunk/src/ (stdafx.h string_func.h): -Doc: Add some doxygen comments
06:10<roboboy>no red topic either
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06:15<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14554 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Fix: languages using longer gender names than strgen supports.
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06:20<CIA-5>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r14555 /trunk/src/ (23 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: replace ttd_strlcat and ttd_strlcpy with strecat and strecpy where direct conversion is possible
06:20<Progman>the topic is in xchat written in red (and starts with ".6.3 ..." instead of "0.6.3 ...")
06:21<@Rubidium>blame your chat client; we don't set a color for the topic
06:22<@Belugas>the topic on mIRC is white on blue background. You should check your setting
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06:23<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm feeling so old fashoned with a black topic on gray background
06:23<@Rubidium>gray topic on a blue background ;)
06:23<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14556 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Fix (r14533): Bounding box with height > TILE_HEIGHT could cause circular dependencies with surrounding bridges.
06:23<@Belugas>anyone remember the orange/black screens?
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06:24<@Belugas>or even the green ones?
06:24<Progman>strange, its the only channel with a red topic o_O
06:24<Eddi|zuHause2>well, that's for the topic in the topic, the topic in the chat buffer is green with a sprinkle of blue on white background
06:25<frosch123>Belugas: orange was called amber here :)
06:26<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, "Bernstein"
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06:29<Zahl>i had a green one.. all the letters were doing belly-dance on it
06:29<Eddi|zuHause2>god i hate this... the whole house smells like delicious food, but it isn't ready for another hour...
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06:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r14557 /trunk/src/string.cpp: -Codechange: Remove a redundant line of code
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06:44<Alberth>Belugas: yes, my first monitor was a green/black one
06:44<Prof_Frink>Mmm, Green & Black
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07:16<TrueBrain>morning all
07:16<@Rubidium>afternoon TrueBrain
07:19<TrueBrain>Rubidium: ever found the time to look at AIOrder? :)
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07:24<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: no :( haven't found the time to make a test AI yet
07:24<TrueBrain>:( Too bad
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07:39<George_>Hey, who has used my nick?
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07:42<@petern>probably some guy called george
07:45<George_>Fine, how can I contact him?
07:45<Ammler>George_: don't use registered nicks: /ns info <nick>
07:45<George_> /ns info <nick>
07:46<TrueBrain>you want to make a clame on the oh-so-common name George? Good luck :)
07:46<Ammler>your clients might not be able to interprete /ns: /nickserv info
07:46<Prof_Frink>or possibly even /msg nickserv info
07:46<Ammler>'/msg nickserv
07:47<Ammler>my client does that for me ;-)
07:47<yorick>hm, the guy currently using the nickname isn't even the one that claimed it with nickserv
07:49<George_>Sorry, this is my first IRC attempt. What should I do to change my nick to "George"?
07:50<TrueBrain>if it is taken, bad luck, pick an ither name
07:50<George_>How can read messages, which were posted before I've joined?
07:50<Ammler>George_: use same nick as you do on forums
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07:51<TrueBrain>George_: and for that and all your other questions, use and read the basics of IRC
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07:52<George_>Unfortunately my forum nick is "George" and I have problems to set the same one here :(
07:53<TrueBrain>morning Wolf01
07:53<George_>And how can I add a spell checker here? Ops, I did it already :)
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07:55<Prof_Frink>A spell checker in IRC? Isn't that like a smoke alarm in Hades?
07:55<TrueBrain>hehe @ Prof_Frink
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07:59<George>Hm. After quit I could change the nick to George :)
07:59<yorick>but you can't keep it
07:59<George>It will take time to understand how it works.
07:59<yorick>the guy who claimed it can just take it back
08:00<George>And what can I do make this name mine? at least at #openttd and #tycoon?
08:00<yorick>you can't
08:00<yorick>you need to get another one
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08:01<George>And why do people say these IRC are so good? My first step gave more trouble than benefit :(
08:01<TrueBrain>because you failed to read a manual?
08:01<Doorslammer>We thought the same about you
08:02<TrueBrain>hehe @ Doorslammer
08:02<George>What do you mean OTHER ONE? All the TTD community knows George, why should use other nickname?
08:02<TrueBrain>poor thing
08:02<TrueBrain>not a single clue
08:02<stillunknown>An irc server hosts many channels.
08:02<George>2Doorslammer: What do you mean by that?
08:03<Doorslammer>Dont slag off IRC, it works for the rest of us
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08:03<George>2TrueBrain: How reading the manual would protect the name?
08:04<stillunknown>George: what you want is like me saying that i have the name George somewhere and want it on tt-forums too
08:04<TrueBrain>not; at least it would give you an understanding that you are talking gibberish
08:04<Ammler>George: are you ECS George?
08:04<Doorslammer>Inexcusable if he is
08:04<yorick>-NickServ- Nickname information for George (george)
08:04<yorick>-NickServ- Last seen: Sun 02 Mar 2008 05:58:34 +0000 (8m 2d 07:04:56 ago)
08:05<George>> <Doorslammer> Dont slag off IRC, it works for the rest of us
08:06<George>I didn't start yet, but if you are unhappy to see me here ... Just tell
08:06<yorick>you show up and the first thing you do is complain
08:06<George>Yes, I'm George, the author of LV and ECS.
08:06<Ammler>he, nice. :-)
08:07<Doorslammer>Not that Im unhappy you are here, just rather unhappy that someone who has much forum experience complain worse than some new people
08:07<TrueBrain>Doorslammer: well, this in fact is a all time low for me :)
08:07<George>It is not a complain yet, it is a help request.
08:08<Ammler>just use an alternative name like TTGeorge or Geor9e or what ever...
08:08<frosch123>or George123 :p
08:08<George>But how would other understand that this is the same George?
08:09<Ammler>and register with /msg nickserv register"
08:09-!-fonso [] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.7 :]
08:09<Ammler>they will very soon know you as that...
08:09<frosch123>sometimes it is not that bad, when not everyone knows that I am frosch :)
08:10<TrueBrain>frosch123: you are 'frosch'? Wow .... :p
08:10<George>2Frosch. Thank you for your fix.
08:10<George>But why?
08:10<frosch123>well, I also highlight on "frosh" in the mean time
08:10<Ammler>George: the network has more then just those 2 channels...
08:11<Doorslammer>My name is in half and changes to something almost unrelated when the original times out
08:11<Ammler>and evey nick is unique on the whole network
08:11<George>Is it possible to have different "George" s on different channels?
08:12<TrueBrain>again, read any IRC manual
08:12<Ammler>that is what we tried to tell you, it isn't
08:13<George>It will take time. As for now belugas said me to join IRC to see FS2334 discussion. But I could not find it yet :(
08:15<George>frosch, where is the discussion belugas was telling me about?
08:16<stillunknown>irc is real time, meaning you'll have to find/wait for belugas
08:16<frosch123>hehe, that was a non-public discussion
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08:17<frosch123>but George, we were mainly wondering how useful the results 0xD, 0xE and 0xF are.
08:18<frosch123>I.e. to my knowledge they only work when you are using a production callback and have "automatic multiplier handling" enabled
08:18<George>how can I join that non-public discussion
08:19<frosch123>but when you already use a production callback, you can also just store your own multiplier in some persistent register, and multiply however you like inside the production callback
08:19<George>I'd like to say that they are very useful for ECS vectors. Every mine uses them and I plan to use it for every industry in the future.
08:20<frosch123>btw. that would also allow changing production of different output cargos independent from each other
08:20<frosch123>but do you agree, that they are not very useful when an industry produces more than one cargo?
08:21<George>Yes, I can use industry register instead of var 93, but I do not think that is the best way.
08:22<frosch123>well, "the best way" was the whole point of the discussion, and we got no result :)
08:23<George>No, in ECS vectors every industry that has 2 outputs, has them linked, so for me var 93 is ok
08:24<George>And what were the arguments? How can I read your non-public discussions? Could you authorize me to your non-public channel?
08:25<frosch123>another question was, which register to use
08:26<frosch123>I would like when the textref stack would be uses consistently accross all callbacks
08:26<frosch123>though the stringID in register 0x100 might be some special case
08:27<George>As i wrote, selecting registers is up to devs team
08:28<frosch123>however, generally there is no real argument against 0xF, as 0xD and 0xE are already there
08:28<George>On the GRF side every register is good as soon as it is documented and unchanged ;)
08:28<frosch123>so it could somewhat finish that stuff
08:30<George>Should I read it as you've decided to implement it?
08:31<frosch123>well, we agreed on "yes", but not on "how" :)
08:31<George>Thank you!
08:31<George>Let me know if you need a GRF to test.
08:32<frosch123>err, of course we also have no plan for "when"
08:33<George>I didn't say that I'm supposing to see it in trunk today ;)
08:34<frosch123>however, your info, that your output rates are linked by a constant factor, is also useful :)#
08:35<George>For me it is Ok when devs say "We decided to implement it". My GRFs took over 3 years to do, devs would be definitely faster :lol:
08:35<George>Feel free to ask me any question about ECS vectors
08:38<George>Just to note. Linked do not mean equal. Proportions are defined by income cargo and % transported. var 93 defines only the max values.
08:38<George>So, how can I join your devs channel? What steps should I do?
08:39<yorick>you need to ask them for the name and hope they let you in
08:39<frosch123>usual approach is to fix about 20 FS tasks using our coding style and get them committed
08:40<frosch123>or you code some nice feature, that gets committed, and prove that you support your code
08:40<yorick>and if they don't, which is usually the case, you can use frosch's approach
08:44<George>I do not plan to become a dev, because that would stop GRF developing. Is it possible to join the channel for the GRF coder, not an OTTD dev?
08:44<frosch123>what's wrong with this channel?
08:46<George>Because I can't read those discussions here, which belugas is referring to. With the same effect I can use no IRC channel and wait for belugas mail.
08:47<yorick> could hope they forget to add +s some day, then looking in the channel list and join that channel, with them banning you <-- my approach
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08:48<George>The goal in my joining IRC was to take part in your discussions about my requests to help you understand them better.
08:49<frosch123>well, I guess I already replayed the discussion
08:49<frosch123>and I learned how ECS uses the variable currently
08:49<yorick>everything they say in the dev channel should not matter to you..
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08:51<George>As belugas wrote: "Explanation will be sent to the other devs."
08:51<George>So I decided why not to do it myself?
08:51<George>yorick> everything they say in the dev channel should not matter to you..
08:51<George>What do you mean?
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08:51<yorick>the dev channel is ment to be private for them
08:52<yorick>if you just join that, there is no use for a secret coder hideout
08:53<George>Well, if devs prefer to use guessing about my intentions after my requests - it is their solution. But, IMHO, asking me is much easier :roll:
08:53<frosch123>isn't that what belugas was doing?
08:54<TrueBrain>George: sometimes it is a good idea not to listen to yorick ;)
08:54<yorick>George: don't use forum smileys at irc, it burns!
08:56<Doorslammer>Just sometimes?
08:56<George>2frosch: Well, if you find that a better way, it is you decision, I should not change it. I just was willing to help. Sorry if did something wrong.
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08:56<frosch123>no, it's just that there is no real difference between discussion with belugas or with all
08:57<George>Is there a list of available smiles? Chatzilla shows :) ;) :( as images
08:57<yorick>George: =), :D, D:, :|, :P, :-P, :-), ;-), :-(, ;-(, ;(
08:57<Aali>here's a list of smileys that display images in my client:
08:58<Doorslammer>Yorick has gone schizophrenic on us :S
08:58<yorick>invisible smilies
08:58<George>Strange. I understood this
08:58<George>belugas> BY the way, you should notice that all our communications (with other devs, i mean) are done on IRC. One day, you should really try to useit. IT would make your life far easier. And don't tellm e about the language barrier. There are users who speak far worse english than you can imagine ;)
08:58<George>as inviting to the channel.
08:59<Doorslammer> <--- Im sticking my tongue out at you stealthily
08:59<frosch123>George: he mean't this channel :)
08:59<George>2yorick: Chatzilla has showed only the last one as the image
08:59<frosch123>and he said it for the same reason as phone is sometimes more useful than a letter
09:01<George>Sorry, but what would be the use of me at this channel, when you discuss a question in the other? Confused.
09:01<Doorslammer>No one has ever bombed a phone call, for instance
09:03<yorick>George: that they can move the discussion *here* for you to see it
09:04<George>But how can I know that a time came to join in discussion if I do not see it? Confused.
09:05<George>Also, if they move it, I can't see the previous posts, which were done in the private channel?
09:06<TrueBrain>George: for the last time: read a IRC newbie manual
09:06<TrueBrain>@kban yorick 3600 we told you too many times to stop doing that
09:06-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
09:06<George>Point a good short one ;)
09:06-!-yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [we told you too many times to stop doing that]
09:07<TrueBrain> or something? :p
09:07<TrueBrain>(seriously work ;))
09:08<George>I'm already reading . Can't say that it is very clean from the first read
09:09<rortom>yorick is sometimes ..... :|
09:09<Doorslammer>... a tit
09:10<TrueBrain>George: okay, because it is you, let me explain a few things: IRC is a real time env. Like a conversaion you are having in a crowdy room. If you are not in the room when the speaker is saying something, you missed it, and you can't get it back
09:10<TrueBrain>it is not like a forum, there are no stickies on the wall which tell you what is said
09:10<TrueBrain>so any previous discusion is lost, and lost for ever, besides the summary in the minds of the people in the room
09:11<TrueBrain>what Belugas meant, was for you to join here, so when ever he is around (or who ever wants to conitnue on it), have you in the room, so you can participate
09:11<George>that is bad because of time zones :(
09:11<TrueBrain>in no way Belugas meant that he wanted you to read back the discussion that had already happened
09:11<TrueBrain>a bit clear to you now? :)
09:11<TrueBrain>in general we do just fine :)
09:12<TrueBrain>then it needs to be noted that this channel is logged, and can be read back (like yorick is doing now), but that is most of the time impossible to read back; also, the developers channel is not publicly logged (for various of reasons)
09:13<George>I understood this already, the problem was how to use this right way. Today is Sunday and I have time to be online at this time, but in most days this would not happen.
09:13<TrueBrain>and Belugas is rarely online on a sunday
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09:13<TrueBrain>so that makes the situation sligthly less useful ;)
09:14<George>This is what I was afraid of :(
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10:06-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
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10:10<George>What is better - to be connected IRC while being of-line personally or connect IRC for chating that would happen once a week or so? Is there some way to make e-mail notification to join IRC now? So I could join IRC only when my participation is required?
10:14<Aali>If you can, stay connected 24/7
10:15<Aali>your client should tell you when someone says your name, so you can answer peoples questions whenever you have time
10:15<George>My PC is 24/7 and chatzilla can be always open. But me myself would appear rarely.
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10:17<George>Well, Try saying my name, I'll look how would it tell me about it, please.
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10:18<Aali>there should be some kind of highlighting
10:19<George>It blinks orange. Well. I'll make a try with it.
10:19<Aali>additionally, you should be able to mark yourself as away, and your client should then be able to provide a backlog of highlighted messages when you come back
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10:19<Aali>atleast mine does
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10:21<George>And what would happen if my nick would become changed? (As it was stated above, nick George does not belong to me)
10:21<Aali>there's probably an option to add additional words to highlight on
10:22<Aali>so adding George would make sure its always highlighted
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10:24<George>Does anybody has chatzilla? If yes, could you point me highlighted tab? I could not find it from the first attempt.
10:27<Sacro>heh, how long before the usual "George" appears
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10:27<Ammler>George: I know at least one other german who does use that nick too :-)
10:28<ln>i know one who is the president of a big north american country.
10:29<Ammler>well, I meant in this channel...
10:30<Ammler>oh, he is only in the coop channel... :-)
10:30<George>Fine, but what should I do?
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10:31<Ammler>here :-)
10:32<ln>Ammler is trying to confuse you.
10:33<Ammler>'/msg nickserv register
10:34<Ammler>ups, I didn't read him proper, he is called gregor, so nvm.
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10:38<George>It says
10:38<George>> Nickname George is already registered. If this is your nickname you may try IDENTIFY instead. If this is not your nickname then it may have been registered by someone else first. Please choose another nickname and try again, or if you believe this nickname to be unused, contact network support.
10:38<George>What to do?
10:39<Aali>is there no way to redefine an action3 of a vehicle in another grf without including the sprites?
10:39<George>I could not find a way to do it
10:39<frosch123>Aali: no, there isn't
10:40<Ammler>George: /nick <othernick>
10:40<Aali>seems like that should be doable
10:40<frosch123>Aali: btw. vehicles are already special, as you can modify action0 from outside. you cannot do that for houses and industries.
10:40<George>2frosh: Is there a way to use default graphics for a vehicle for one cargo and new graphics for the other cargo?
10:41<Aali>frosch123: i see
10:42<George>Ammler: And what?
10:42<Ammler>ah well, keep your nick as it is, George...
10:43<Aali>thats the final nail in my ECS adapter coffin then :P
10:43<frosch123>George: no, also that is not possible
10:45<George>I supposed that. Let me dream about a day when I could define vehicles graphics as good as houses and industries :(
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12:06<Aali>oh hey, George, while you're here, i've got a problem with ECS
12:07<Aali>industries aren't accepting cargo from the chemical vector
12:07<Aali>its listed as a resource, but they never accept it
12:07<Aali>glass works wont take potash, power plant wont take oil
12:11<Aali>oh and banks want me to transport gold, not valuables, in temperate
12:14<TrueBrain>so to summarize it, you didn't load ECS :p
12:15<Aali>very funny, but no, all the other vectors work
12:15<TrueBrain>tnx, I know I am very funny :)
12:16<George>Potash bug is reported. I did not test the fix yet, Let me know if this GRF fixes potash problem
12:18<George>Power plant accepts oil after 1950 as soon as one of coal image is replaced with a tank image
12:21<George>Bank and gold mine are controlled with parameter 0. See for details
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12:24<Ammler>George: some of the ECS graphics aren't that "TTDish", are there plans to replace them?
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12:26<George>Yes, as soon as some one would draw it :)
12:27<Ammler>hmm, I guess, there would be some drawer, if you would make a request :-)
12:27<Aali>ah, right, i see my power plant just changed
12:27<Aali>didn't even know you could do that
12:28<Ammler>ECS is one best documented GRFSets...
12:29<George>Unfortunately not. Any help with documentation or drawing is welcome
12:30<Ammler>what is missing on the documentation?
12:31<Aali>oh and i read somewhere on the wiki that ECS could stop working in 2100-something
12:31<Aali>is that true? what happens?
12:31<George>a lot. for example
12:33<George>I hope beta 5 should not. beta 4 worked only between 1920 and 2050. Hope beta 5 would work. Anyway, bug reports are welcome
12:33<Aali>we'll see
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12:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r14558 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r13957): Converting the track type of a tunnel/bridge could cause trains to get stuck.
12:43<Eddi|zuHause2>"the best" does not mean it is actually "good", just that all others are worse :p
12:43<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: true words
12:44<Eddi|zuHause2>just like <insert favorite religion/os/editor> is "the best" :p
12:46<Ammler>I said "_one_ of the"
12:47<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, that's a direct lemma, because if you are not "the best", you are actually even worse
12:48<Ammler>true :-)
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12:52<Aali>George: that did indeed fix the potash issue, but the old chemical vector is very outdated, isn't it?
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13:04<George>Yes, but the new one does not contain potash.
13:05<Aali>and thats a shame
13:06<George>unfortunately, there is a 32 slot limit. I can't change that
13:06<Aali>but the new chemical vector doesn't add any new cargoes?
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13:21<Aali>George: so why were they (potash&sulphur) removed from the new vector?
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13:22<George>Because I plan to use them in the other place (Town vector)
13:23<Aali>i see
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13:51<Aali>George: in the fund new industry window, the description for sawmills is in french :P my ottd is in english
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14:32<CIA-5>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r14559 /trunk/src/ (train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#2387]: A train could be blocked inside a depot if it was reversed just after leaving the depot.
14:34<Aali>George: i also managed to get a NOT_REACHED crash in GetStringsWithArgs after building a tourist centre in the scenario editor, might not be your fault though
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14:37<George>Unfortunately there is not enough information here. Can you reproduce it? If yes, send a scenario and a place where putting a castle crashes a game.
14:37<Aali>yeah, i'm working on it
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14:39<Aali>it is indeed reproducible
14:40<frosch123>then post it on
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14:57<Aali>seems to be a bad error message somewhere
14:58<Aali>(only way i've been able to reproduce it is trying to build tourist centers at random)
14:59<George>I'm writing abstract industry code and would like to ask. How many times should industry production be higher in 2050 than in 1920 at the highest production level?
14:59<George>I selected 25, but isn't it too much? I mean 1000 units in 1920-th and 25000 units in 2050. and even more in the later years.
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15:05<Ammler>George: you do not allow multiple industries benear each other, so a little bit more then default would be nice
15:05<Ammler>default is 4k, iirc
15:06<Ammler>25k is quite much more :-)
15:06<George>I meant PROCESSING industry
15:06<Ammler>well, then 25k is fine, imo.
15:07<George>Default ones were unlimited (and some users archived 32K AFAIR)
15:07<Ammler>coop industries are around 10-20k
15:08<Ammler>can't remember, we ever reached 20k
15:09<Ammler>btw. I miss a switch on ECS to build same industry together
15:09<George>Well, my question was about production change during time, meaning modern industries use modern technologies and having higher production.
15:09<George>there is no switch like taht
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15:10<Ammler>I wouldn't miss it, if there would be one :P
15:11<Ammler>you need quite a lot primary resource to reach 10k or more
15:11<Ammler>so I think, you could hold it lower...
15:11<George>in 2050-th?
15:12<George>how low? what are values for 1920, 1950, 2000, 2050?
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15:13<Ammler>I would more like if you need to build a 2. identical processing industrie
15:13<frosch123>productivity increased by a average of 1.8% in the last decades
15:13<frosch123>(1.8% per year)
15:14<Eddi|zuHause2>!calc 1.018**130
15:14<Eddi|zuHause2>@calc 1.018**130
15:14<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause2: 10.1674288062
15:14<frosch123>so 130 years from 1920 to 2050 would be about factor 10
15:14<Mark>Ammler: we reached 30k several times
15:14<Mark>game 60, for example
15:15<Ammler>that was the 2k trains game?
15:15<George>What for do you a need a switch to build industries nearby? You have irregular stations which can spread wide enough.
15:15<Mark>66 it was, not 60
15:15<Eddi|zuHause2>the change is probably more drastic during the 19th century
15:16<Mark> this one
15:16<Ammler>George: yeah pre1920 industry would rock :-)
15:16<Aali>still can't reproduce it reliably, but i got some more info
15:16<Aali>its trying to fetch string 216 from the GRF
15:17<Aali>and that in turn triggers some bad stuff
15:17<Aali>probably because there's some garbage in the string
15:17<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: for a timescale like that, it should not be the same industries producing different amounts, it should rather be different industries which probably should be much smaller area-wise
15:18<George>I decided that per 1925-th production would be a constant :)
15:19<Eddi|zuHause2>if you play a game in 18xx, you really need tiny industries that you can deliver locally
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15:19<Eddi|zuHause2>so you need small industries, but a lot of them, forming a very fine grid
15:20<George>2Eddi|zuHause2: But I can't change industry size in game. I can force the old industry to close, while the new one would have a different size, but me doubts a player would like such behaviour.
15:20<Eddi|zuHause2>then, as the technology evolves, you can start bringing more cargo over longer distances
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15:21<Eddi|zuHause2>George: why not? it is done with oil wells and oil rigs in the original game, too
15:21<George>So. Would users like that in 1920-th / 1950-th old industries would close down and new ones would appear?
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15:22<George>And did you like it? I never transported oil from oil wells in temperate.
15:22<Eddi|zuHause2>you don't necessarily need to force the old industries to close, it would just get not lucrative for the player to serve such tiny amounts of cargo anymore
15:22<frosch123>George: IMO that depends on how long they are available
15:23<frosch123>i.e. the oil wells only decrease production in original game
15:23<frosch123>but when they would behave normal from 1850 - 1950, things would be different
15:23<George>2frosch: and what do you suggest?
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15:24<Eddi|zuHause2>George: may i suggest you an IRC gimmick that nearly all clients support? when you want to type a nickname of a person in the chat, type their starting letters, and then press the <tab> key
15:24<frosch123>and someone who starts with horses and 10 kmh trains in 1800 has to replace his whole network anyway at some point
15:25<Eddi|zuHause2>and leave out this "2", that is very disturbing...
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15:25<Eddi|zuHause>i mean the other 2 ;)
15:25<TrueBrain>now that is worth a quote ;)
15:25<George>well, what amounts of production are good for which time?
15:26<Ammler>19th century
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>that depends very much on player's taste
15:26<George>Eddi|zuHause: thank you
15:26<Ammler>around a 1/10 of 1950
15:27<SmatZ>for me, 2000 production is fine, no matter what time it is...
15:27<Ammler>poor horses :P
15:28<SmatZ>there are tons of them
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15:28*frosch123 hates primary industries producing more than 1000 units
15:28<SmatZ>you can "build" them ;)
15:28<frosch123>when playing with a wagon speed limit of 80 or 120 kmh, I need a whole track to only service a single industry
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15:28<SmatZ>why, frosch123? because 1 platform loading station isn't enough?
15:28<frosch123>I would not care about the platform
15:28<George>frosch123: we are speaking about SECONDARY industries
15:29*SmatZ goes back to work :)
15:29<Ammler>well, but 2. depense on 1.
15:29<frosch123>but at some point there is no sense in a network, when a single industry needs its own track
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say on average, you should have 10 primary industries to serve 1 secondary industry
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15:30<Eddi|zuHause>so 1000 is fine when each primary industry provides 100
15:30<frosch123>George: well, the difference is, that I control how much secondary industries produce, by stopping delivering them
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>for horse carriages, you cannot expect them to haul 100 items per month, though
15:30<George>Eddi|zuHause: I planned 3-7 primary for 1 secondary in average, but the number should grow during gameplay
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>George: keep in mind that the production of primary industries also rises
15:31<George>but less than secondary ones.
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15:33<George>frosch123: So, how many items should it produce on the highest level before 1900, in 1920, 1950, 2000, 2050?
15:33<frosch123>well for farms one could say, 9 of 10 close down from 1860 to 1950, and the other increase production by factor 50 or so
15:34<George>50? Interesting. Do you have the same statistics for other industries?
15:34<frosch123>err, that was a wild guess of my imagination :)
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, the number of people working in agriculture did decrease from something like 90% to 4% in the last 200 years
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>which was the start of all this industrialisation mess in the first place, increasing the efficiency of agriculture ;)
15:36<George>frosch123: BTW that would require OTTDs code to have different amount of industries to generate before 1900, and after 1920.
15:38<frosch123> <- at the bottom is some table, the last column "ΔPi" is the increment rate of productivity
15:39<frosch123>stupid client
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>i could imagine giving the industries some overall "weight", so not all industries are considered equal with regard to industry generation... so you could have 100 farms or 5 factories with the same industry density setting
15:39<Ammler>but don't look to deep in that :-)
15:40<Ammler>else you should read Belugas nice text about R*
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>this is not about r*, it is about gameplay balance
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15:46<George>I read that text. But that does not remove the idea
15:46<Zuu>Is anyone aware of a stand-alone program to query a OpenTTD server of the info that can be optained from it? I'm aware of OpenTTDLib in php, which is a possibility by making a php-file that takes ip and port as input and deliveries the result from the OpenTTD server.
15:47<TrueBrain>I never read anyone making a true stand-alone application doing that, besides OpenTTD itself
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: what are you actually asking?
15:47<TrueBrain>(well, and except ottd-update (part of MasterServer))
15:48<Zuu>A solution to get the version of an OpenTTD server form a stand-alone program.
15:48<Ammler>Zuu: there is something with python too
15:48<Zuu>Ammler: Ok.
15:50<Zuu>TrueBrain: That looks interesting, thank you.
15:50<TrueBrain>it is what fills
15:52<George>would 2K in 1920 and 14k in 2050 be Ok?
15:52<Ammler>if you can build a 2. in 2050 :-)
15:53<Ammler>but well, ECS is very hard to manage anyway.
15:54<George>Ammler: What is wrong?
15:54<Ammler>nothing wrong
15:54<Ammler>just not that easy as default, which is fine, imo.
15:55<Ammler>I guess, there is no server using ECS atm.
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16:08<Eddi|zuHause>ln: where do you always get the scariest news from?
16:11<ln>the Internet Relay Chat
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16:23<ln>he just can't leave silently.
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>at least he is quick to be buried
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16:57<George>Looks Like I got the similar bug for industry construction
16:57<George> 308 * 21 04 0A FF 01 E5 DC "ÞCement works" 00
16:57<George> 309 * 21 04 0A 82 01 E5 DC "ÞZementfabrik" 00
16:57<George> 310 * 24 04 0A 83 01 E5 DC "ÞUsine de béton" 00
16:57<George> 311 * 18 04 0A 84 01 E5 DC "ÞCementera" 00
16:57<George> 312 * 38 04 0A 87 01 E5 DC "ÞЦементный завод" 00
16:57<George> 313 * 28 04 0A A7 01 E5 DC "ÞFabbrica di cemento" 00
16:57<George>OTTD Error text: String 0xDCE5 isinvalid. Probably because an old version of the .lng file.
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16:58<@Rubidium>George: don't expect frosch to read that
16:59<Aali>yeah, he's not here
16:59<@Rubidium>evening Celestar
16:59<Aali>but there's something going on with the strings in ECS, thats for sure
16:59<Aali>i posted my issue on flyspray
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>but nobody points out the grammatical error in the error message :p
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17:03*Celestar 's sick in bed :(
17:03*TrueBrain hopes Celestar feels better very soon
17:03<TrueBrain>on the good side, you now have time for cargodest ;)
17:03<ln>please state the nature of the medical emergency!
17:04<@Celestar>ln: I'm shitting about half a liter of water per hour ...
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>thanks for that image
17:05<thingwath>in bed?
17:05<ln>that's... hmm, hopefully your nearest emergency medical hologram can help :/
17:05<@Celestar>I'm commuting between the bed and the loo
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17:06<@Celestar>without the laptop I might add
17:06<@Rubidium>I hope DB doesn't charge too much for that
17:06<@Celestar>Rubidium: DB?
17:06<stillunknown>Deutsche Bahn i guess
17:06<@Rubidium>you're not commuting by train? ;)
17:07<@Celestar>er nope ^^
17:07<thingwath>Week ago I had a plan to use trolleybus for trips to WC.
17:07<@Celestar>hey they found 6 more planets this week ^^
17:10<@Rubidium>only 6?
17:10<@Rubidium>and they say there are billions of them
17:12<@Celestar>that's not a bad rate for the crude instruments we have, that can mostly detect massive planets in close orbits (which are theoretically rare)
17:13<@Celestar>I think I'll call it a day
17:13<@Celestar>cu tomorrow
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17:44<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: isn't it a little late/early for that?
17:44<TrueBrain>Kung Fu Panda .. would that be any good movie :s
17:45<@Rubidium>better than burn after reading
17:47<Eddi|zuHause> <- Rubidium: it's a parody on turkish and morning TV, which explains the weird spelling ;)
17:49*Rubidium likes bernie und ert more
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>different parody :p
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18:07<Aali>wow, what is up with these horse carriages
18:07<TrueBrain>Friend of mine starts to play OpenTTD ... she starts to complain she can't build busses ... so after a few basic questions, I ask: what year are you in .. 1892 ... and you wonder why you can't build busses? Hehe ...
18:07<Aali>its like they're skipping orders with every other frame
18:08<Aali>which means they just keep going around randomly, never stopping at any stations
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>falling asleep on the "D" key?
18:09<Aali>happens to all five of them
18:09<Aali>trains work fine, trying faster vehicles
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>wrong kind of station?
18:09<@Rubidium>or... unreachable station
18:09<Aali>you can't even give orders if your stations are wrong
18:10<Aali>the stations really shouldn't be unreachable
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>or someone screwed up with multistop reservation?
18:10<Aali>i have 10 tiles of road between two simple lorry stations
18:11<Aali>trucks of the same speed do work
18:12<Aali>am i supposed to build some special type of stations for horse carriages?
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18:13<ln>does someone have a link to Obama's "informercial" in HD?
18:14-!-lobstah is now known as lobster
18:14<TrueBrain>try building busstations? :p
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it gets confused with cargo refits?
18:15<@Rubidium>try building drive through stops
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>or that
18:15<Aali>ah, no they're articulated
18:15<Aali>Rubidium: spot on
18:17<Aali>heh, broken horse carriages are drawn without the horses
18:17<Aali>with improved breakdowns you get ghost carriages that move on their own :D
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18:21<SmatZ>horses died, waiting for new ones
18:21<SmatZ>better than horses with smoke...
18:23<Aali>actually, they do smoke too
18:23<TrueBrain>bad for your health
18:24<Aali>when they have a "mechanical failure" which is basically the same as a vanilla breakdown
18:24<thingwath>to burn them is easier than to burry them
18:24<SmatZ>hmm strange, in my version of LV4, there is both smoke and horsies
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18:35<Char>what kind of version is that?
18:35<Aali>its a grf
18:37<Char>looks nice
18:39<Char>i wonder if it is possible to play the game solely with road vehicles
18:39<TrueBrain>of course it is
18:39<Char>no trains :P
18:39<Aali>of course it is
18:39<Char>i mean
18:39<TrueBrain>lol @ Aali :)
18:39<Char>usefully playable
18:39<Char>can you support a 1000+ goods/month factory with it?
18:40<Aali>the only bad thing about RVs is that you can't control them in the same way you can control your trains
18:41<SmatZ>multistop is limited to 16 loading bays / station
18:42<Aali>but you can always have more stations
18:42<SmatZ>yeah :)
18:42<Aali>16 loading bays with high traffic is bound to cause some serious jamming too
18:43<Char>my trains jam as well, so....
18:47<Aali>download the save for PSG111 and have a look
18:50<Char>thats horribly slow :P
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>TT was horribly slow with 80 trains on my 386 DX25
18:51<Char>good thing with RVs is that you do not need any signalling
18:51<Char>TT was pretty okay if you had not too many trains on my 386 DX40
18:51<Aali>bad thing with RVs is that you can't do any signaling
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>40 is significantly more than 25
18:52<Char>the 368 SX25 processor which was in that computer earlier (and the 8x 128KB RAM) was slower though
18:52<Char>that thing had a turbo switch which you had to switch on to get 25 MHz
18:53<Char>otherwise it was running with 8 MHz
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>even on my 486 SX25 laptop it was significantly faster
18:53<Char>you remember the games that did not have any kind of control for the speed they were running at?
18:53<Char>just running as fast as it got?
18:54<Char>like... nibbles for example :P
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>i usually started those under windows, so they run slower :p
18:54<Char>which kindof sucked at 25 MHz but was pretty okay at 8 MHz
18:54<Char>and warcraft1 was running much faster at my friends 486
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>my computer did not have a turbo button
18:54<Char>too bad ;)
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>it was worse when my brother thought he found the turbo button
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>but it was the reset button...
18:55<TrueBrain>hmm .. turbo button ...
18:55<Char>i remember that the computer did not turn off when you pressed the power button but only when you released it
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>which he of course had to press immediately before i had a chance to correct him...
18:56<TrueBrain>Char: pretty normal for mechanical switches :)
18:56<Char>so i remember pushing the power button and then realizing that i should not yet switch off
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>that is normal
18:56<Char>so i had to hold that thing
18:56<Char>for a while.....
18:56<TrueBrain>we all been there :)
18:56<Char>until i realized that if you were quick enough you could release it and press it again without the computer going off
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>but mine was not such a pushing switch, so it was different
18:57<TrueBrain>before that I had a real switch
18:57<TrueBrain>not a press button :p
18:57<Char>the best switch i ever had though was much later
18:57<Char>on a pentium3 or something like that
18:58<Char>a friend of mine had a computer on his desk which did not have any case.... otherwise it was fine though. problem was that without a case, you did not have any power switch
18:58<Char>so you could not turn it on
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>my father loved the power switch on his Colani tower, because he could switch it with his big toe
18:58<Char>however, the power switch basically does nothing else than connect the pins on the mainboard
18:58<Char>yes, a screwdriver worked pretty well ;)
18:59<Char>Eddi|zuHause: rofl
18:59<TrueBrain>I still do that when working on a computer
18:59*thingwath loves screwdrivers
18:59<TrueBrain>the reset button only works a bit more annoying
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18:59<TrueBrain>nothing a jumper can't fix ;)
19:00<Char>so you all started with computers somewhere in the age of the 386?
19:00<rubyruy>so i know balance isn't really a high priority goal with openttd since it's more of a sandbox game then really competitive... but is it just me or are aircraft like REALLLLLY "overpowered"
19:00<TrueBrain>8086 even
19:00<Char>i dont use aircraft
19:00<TrueBrain>rubyruy: increase the speed-factor of aircrafts
19:00<Char>because it IS overpowered
19:01<rubyruy>like i have a friendly (but competitive) game with some work buddies going and no matter how nice my train lines are, 4 airports make 5 times more :(
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>that's about the time when i got "computer sentient"... i used them before, but i don't remember anything about the
19:01<rubyruy>how can i adjust it?
19:01<Char>so that means you all played the original TT as well
19:01<Aali>planes are great for getting some quick cash
19:01<Char>planes are just too simple.
19:01<TrueBrain>Char: I did :p
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>most of us
19:02<Char>so did i.... although it was not the first game i played i guess
19:02<rubyruy>yeah but it still sucks that I spent all this time making this very expensive, over-engineered express line, and then boss plops down 6 airports and runs away with the game :p
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>the first game that i remember is sokoban
19:02<Char>fun thing is, most of the games i played back then i still remember as good games... if i play a new game today, i forget it three days later.
19:02<Aali>rubyruy: using any grfs?
19:02<rubyruy>no - default everything
19:02<TrueBrain>I can't remember my first game
19:02<TrueBrain>I guess pong
19:02<TrueBrain>or the pong virus
19:03<Aali>realistic aircraft are more expensive
19:03<thingwath>my first game was prince of persia two, but I spent many, many years with tt[d]
19:03<rubyruy>oh really?
19:03<Aali>like aviators
19:03<TrueBrain>the pong virus was on a 386, TSR application
19:03<rubyruy>like the openttdcoopy pack?
19:03<Aali>they can still make a buttload of cash though
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, from that old time there are many minigames
19:04<Char>should be so expensive in running costs that they are only worth it for really long distances (planes)
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19:04<TrueBrain>I tihnk my first game was a GWBasic 'maze' game
19:04<Char>i guess the first games were like nibbles and gorilla
19:04<rubyruy>long distances are exactly where they are RIDICULOUSLY profitable
19:04<rubyruy>has nobody really attempted to balance them?
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>the first game that had some kind of storyline was monkey island
19:04<Aali>planes are insane on 2048^2 maps
19:04<rubyruy>it's one of those things where you'd think somebody did
19:05<Char>but also TT, simcity, dune2, civilization, ....
19:05<thingwath>planes should be profitable on long distances, shouldn't they?
19:05<TrueBrain>dune2 .. dos4gw ... 486 ... :)
19:05<Char>but not on short ones
19:05-!-Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
19:05<TrueBrain>pretty new game ;)
19:05<Aali>a full boeing 737 from one corner of the map to another = half a million in profit
19:05<rubyruy>well yes but like i said, 6 airports make 5 times more money then my fairly well developed train network
19:05<Char>dune2 was great
19:05<SmatZ>yeah :)
19:06<TrueBrain>I tried to make it a webdune :)
19:06<rubyruy>and since you can just grow cities there is no real limit to how many of them you can build
19:06<TrueBrain>worked pretty well ;)
19:06<rubyruy>basically there is compelling reason to even bother with rail if you're playing competitive
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>i remember having monkey island on 4 5¼" diskettes
19:06<thingwath>I always have enough money to build more airports and planes then any other player :-)
19:06-!-Zahl [] has quit [Quit: Rhabarberbarbarabarbarbarenbartbarbierbierbar]
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>and switching diskettes all the time
19:06<rubyruy>and i understand most people play for fun / sandbox style but it's kinda annoying outside of that :p
19:06<Char>rubyruy: yes, just say "no air"
19:06<thingwath>because they are too lazy to build a real railway network
19:06<TrueBrain>webdune, a AJAX based dune2 clone :)
19:07<Aali>increasin the plane speed factor works though
19:07<Aali>go high enough and they'll be useless
19:07<@Belugas>George, i see you found us :) congrats
19:07<Char>and of course i remember playing netwars on the school computers
19:07<@Belugas>and welcome
19:07<Aali>well, decrease the speed, increase the setting ;)
19:07<rubyruy>oh wait is that that funny mechanism that makes planes move slower then advertised?
19:07<@Belugas>if ever yu are still awaken...
19:08<Aali>rubyruy: indeed
19:08<TrueBrain>netwars .. I only start playing that like 1 year ago :p
19:08<Char>rubyruy: in the original game they were running at 1/4th of their true speed
19:08<rubyruy>yeah :/
19:09<Char>TrueBrain: the original netwars? this black-and-white-polygon-thingy?
19:09<rubyruy>... i'm still kinda torn because it would be nice to have SOME air but keep industry more profitable
19:09<rubyruy>what about adjusting passanger payment rates?
19:09<Char>i somehow never played monkey island....
19:09<Char>rubyruy: might be an idea....
19:09<TrueBrain>hmm .. now I am mixing up a few names .. if netwars is what I think it is, I played that A LOT on the computer network too :p
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>rubyruy: adjusting to what?
19:09<rubyruy>just lowering payout for passengers
19:10<Char>TrueBrain: probably there is more than one game with the highly uncommon name "netwars"....
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>rubyruy: doesn't change the relationship between trains and planes
19:10<TrueBrain>a simple space game
19:10<TrueBrain>which worked on the 486
19:10<Char>like.... really simple
19:10<TrueBrain>rockets, and that was it
19:10<Char>which worked on the 8086 pretty well
19:10<TrueBrain>but .. IPX/SPX network support
19:11<TrueBrain>I loved that game :)
19:11<rubyruy>yeah ... it would kill passenger trains as well i guess
19:11<rubyruy>sigh .. maybe just cost + running cost would do it
19:11<rubyruy>increasing it i mean
19:11<rubyruy>IRL it should be significantly higher
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>landing cost, starting cost, loading time
19:11<rubyruy>maybe i should just try the aviator set
19:12<Aali>rubyruy: you could also stop town growth
19:12<thingwath>personaly, I would make airports even larger than they are now
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>those should be the disadvantages of planes
19:12<Aali>which wouldn't ruin passenger transport, but limit it
19:12<rubyruy>Oh oh oh oh and that patch from edge which limits airports getting built inside cities
19:12<rubyruy>that would also make it more of an operation then currently
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot stop town growth
19:12<TrueBrain>Char: I remember it even being more basic ;)
19:12<rubyruy>since you'd have ot setup feeders
19:12<TrueBrain>but I could never find the game ever again :(
19:12<TrueBrain>the game I wasa consufing it with, was nethack
19:12<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: of course you can
19:12<Char>TrueBrain: me too
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>only towns building roads, but they still grow along player's roads
19:13<thingwath>Eddi|zuHause: there is patch settings
19:13<Aali>Town growth speed: None
19:13<Char>there are towns which do not build roads?
19:13<thingwath>I use it when I have some bigger towns and want to keep small villages.
19:13<Char>i would vote for significantly increasing the running cost of all planes
19:13<Char>especially the fast ones
19:14<TrueBrain>I vote for redoing the whole economy :p
19:14<TrueBrain>oh wait .. 'gamebalance' branch .. :)
19:14<Char>TrueBrain: you're up to it? :P
19:14<Char>is there a gamebalance branch>
19:14<rubyruy>there is such branch?
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there is, celestar started it like a year ago
19:15<rubyruy>economy has bugged me for a long time with TTD... but i can't think of any not-insanely-complicated way of fixing it :p
19:15<rubyruy>like there should probably be destinations for cargo... but oh god the micromanagement i don't think it would really be any fun
19:16<Aali>there's a branch for that too
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>that is already implemented
19:16<Aali>and it works
19:16<rubyruy>well then
19:16<rubyruy>why isn't it in the trunk?
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>currently awaiting merge to trunk
19:16<TrueBrain>finializing, to be more exact
19:16<Aali>it only routes cargo through your existing network though
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>that needs code reviews and stuff
19:16<TrueBrain>(minor bugs)
19:17<Aali>it doesn't come up with new destinations for anything
19:17<rubyruy>is it... fun?
19:17-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:17<Aali>its.. helpful
19:17<TrueBrain>it makes the game more interesting
19:17<Aali>you dont have to use transfer orders and shit to build a real network
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>it mostly gets rid of all the transfer orders mess
19:17<Aali>and some things which were previously not possible are now
19:18<rubyruy>it seems the micro would quickly get unbearable
19:18<Aali>since cargo will only be loaded on a vehicle that will actually take it to its destination
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>you can still play the old way as long as you build your network so that there are no ambiguities
19:18<Aali>there's no more micro, really
19:18<Aali>it builds the network based on your vehicles' orders
19:19<Aali>you still build whatever routes you like
19:19<rubyruy>so you can still just feed everything to 1 factory if you want to and all that?
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>as long as you do not connect a second factory to your network
19:20<thingwath>then, everything will start to move around in very unpredictable ways :-)
19:20<rubyruy>so mostly it's to help people build real networks if they want to eh? not so much 'balance' per say
19:21<rubyruy>what about limited demand for goods / passengers and limited production caps for factories ?
19:21<Aali>for that you want ECS
19:22<Aali>which features stockpiling
19:22<rubyruy>as in this?
19:22-!-elmex [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:22<rubyruy>i should just install the openttdcoop back before bitching about the game balance :p
19:22-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:22<Aali>with stockpiling there's no magic transformation from raw material to goods
19:23<Aali>the factory produces cargo at a variable but not unlimited rate
19:23<rubyruy>oh awsome so you actually have to spread out your network?
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>you can also try pikka's basic industries, they are closer to the originals
19:24<rubyruy>is the production cap explicitly stated ? does it grow like resource produciton grows in the vanilla game?
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>that's an implementation detail that is yet to be decided
19:24<Aali>rubyruy: it does grow, but not entirely like vanilla industries
19:24<rubyruy>you mean i can't play with everything on this page ( ) at the same time? :p
19:24<rubyruy>i have to chooose ? :p
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>you can't use all grfs at the same time
19:25<rubyruy>ahh well
19:25<Aali>i try to use as few grfs as possible :P
19:26<Aali>as in, no stations i'm probably never going to use, no company faces (who cares about those anyway?) etc
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>i always play without fences
19:27<Aali>and even then i'm up to 17 grfs in my current game :(
19:28<Aali>i like fences
19:28<Ammler>you should be able to around 60 GRF at once
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>they obfuscate my view
19:28<Aali>but then i use IS, and it sucks not being able to tell who owns what
19:29<thingwath>CSRailSet has no fences by default and I'm too lazy to turn them on
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>i should try IS some time... to fulfil my schitzophrenic needs
19:29<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: IS doesn't make much sense in SP
19:29<Aali>you should
19:30<Ammler>well, maybe with noAI
19:30<Aali>even though the current patch is pretty bad, its still an awesome concept
19:30<thingwath>with fences it doesn't look like a real railways
19:30<Aali>nah, AIs dont use IS
19:30<rubyruy>any good grfs other not listed here?
19:30<Ammler>rubyruy: of course not :P
19:30<Aali>rubyruy: you might want to get newer versions of some of them
19:31<Ammler>maybe NARS2
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>the german town names v1.1 i presume :p
19:31<Char>one could try to make a game with ships only....
19:31<rubyruy>oh also unrleated to my previous questions - is there a way to adjust the ratio of resource producing industries to factories / end-points in the map gen?
19:31<Aali>that pack has ECS vectors beta 4, and they dont support longdate
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>Char: too few ship sets for that...
19:31<Aali>rubyruy: not really
19:32<rubyruy>really?! i am shocked
19:32<rubyruy>you know... for a game all about the modding ;)
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>rubyruy: yes, newgrfs should be able to define the generation ratio
19:32<Ammler>well, if you play a SP game, you should always look for newer versions for main GRFs
19:32<Aali>doesn't really matter, industries at the start of the game will be gone soon enough anyways
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19:33<Char>aali: what is IS?
19:33<Aali>infrastructure sharing
19:33<Char>whats that?
19:34<thingwath>when then is nobody to share the infrastructure with...
19:34<Aali>a patch that enables you to run trains on each others tracks and more
19:34<rubyruy>holy moly
19:34<rubyruy>do you get paid for somebody else using your track?
19:34<Char>but then again... why not just play in the same company?
19:34<Aali>rubyruy: yes
19:34<Aali>the fees are all adjustable
19:35<rubyruy>oh nice
19:35<rubyruy>so this is a patch not a grf?
19:35<Aali>you can share depots, bus/truck stops and airports too
19:35<Aali>you have to modify your openttd for that
19:35<Char>rubyruy: ECS vectors is really nice... still, you can easily have steel mills producing like 2000+ units of steel a month
19:36<Char>which is pretty decent, in my current game i mostly use one steel mill actually
19:36<Aali>2000 units is not that much though
19:36<rubyruy>well for games with people you know (i.e. not intenret pickup games) you can just distribute the compiled binary + game folder as a zip - easy peasy
19:36<Aali>rubyruy: indeed
19:36<Aali>rubyruy: i use alot of patches for when i play with my friends
19:37<rubyruy>is there a compile guide for osx?
19:37<rubyruy>also y'all really need to get with the times and switch to git
19:37<Aali>check the wiki, under development
19:37<rubyruy>(i'm sure this is brought up a lot)
19:37<Aali>i use the hg repo
19:37<Aali>i think there's a git one too
19:37<Char>i feel so lame with my small railway networks if i compare them to the massive networks with 500+ trains which are used in the public server games
19:38<Aali>Char: we had 1500+ in a recent game
19:38<thingwath>rubyruy: not so easy when they use windows
19:38<Aali>that was kinda laggy
19:38<Aali>alot of people couldn't play
19:39<rubyruy>do the GRFs in the ttdcoop grfpack require a nightly?
19:39<Char>i am at 110 currently in my current game
19:39<Aali>rubyruy: some of them do
19:40<rubyruy>ot do i have to check each one?
19:40<rubyruy>crap :(
19:40<rubyruy>err i guess i can just get the latest
19:40<Aali>you're better of with the nightly anyways
19:40<Char>i guess some of them do
19:40<thingwath>330 trains now, and it's getting slow :/
19:40<Char>isnt there nightlys precompiled?
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>the only time i ever got my computer to choke on one of my games was when i played a completely empty ECS game on a 2k^2 map
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>it got significantly faster after i accidently left the game running unattended for 7 years, though ;)
19:43<Char>is ECS that compute-power intense?
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'd suspect the animations
19:43<Aali>i would suspect the large number of grf callbacks
19:44<Aali>every industry adjusting production, stockpiles and whatnot
19:44<ln>question de la noche: ¿is there a fundamental reason why the map edges need to be water?
19:44<Char>on 512^2 it works great ;)
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>profiling showed the most time was spent in ResolveSpriteGroup function
19:45<Char>ln: yes, otherwise it would look strange
19:45<ln>Char: that's not a fundamental reason.
19:45<Char>that probably was the reason originally
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>ln: afair the map border has to be flat for some height/slope calculations to work
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>which is why there's an additional line of invisible tiles beyond the water tiles
19:46<ln>there is?
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>on the two lower borders, yes
19:47<ln>i was just about to say one could simply skip drawing a little from the edges.
19:47<SmatZ>I think the reason for MP_VOID tiles was to easily check for overflow at map size
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>the shape of one tile depends on the height of the adjacent tiles, only the top corner is stored in the tile
19:47<SmatZ>they have x == 255 || y == 255
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>so to draw one tile, you have to access the 3 tiles below it
19:48<rubyruy>hey you know what else would balance air a little... making ALL the airports significantly larger
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>to not have special cases for the lower border tiles, an additional row of tiles was introduced
19:48<thingwath>but you can shape them anyhow you like, or not?
19:49<Aali>rubyruy: the larger airports are hard to place without destroying too much landscape already
19:49<ln>i was once again thinking about the possible ways of implementing foreign countries.
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>rubyruy: airports are insanely difficult to code, i don't see that happening anytime soon
19:49<Char>play no terraform
19:49<rubyruy>Aali: exactly.... so if the smallest lowest capacity airport was that big then the challange of making an airnetwork would at least be remotely close to building trains
19:49<Char>that makes airports hard to place already :P
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19:50<thingwath>that makes hard to place anything
19:50<rubyruy>since you'd have to flatten mountains and all that
19:50<Aali>flattening mountains is easy though
19:50<Char>once you got the money....
19:50<Aali>its not that expensive either
19:50<rubyruy>Eddi|zuHause: it would be ok to keep the existing airport code just fill it up with props
19:51<Char>you just have to plant a lot of trees afterwards :P
19:51<rubyruy>like the runway hangers stay the same, but there can be parking lots and other random crap surrounding them just to take up space
19:51<ln>btw, the airports ought to be less square-shaped, if you ask me. (i know no one asks me.)
19:51<rubyruy>You can't terraform through competitor land :)
19:52<thingwath>less square-shaped, nice idea :-)
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>rubyruy: well, the project for newgrf airports has been left stale for a long time now
19:53<SpComb>rectangular airports?
19:55<thingwath>not square :-)
19:55<ln>in most 1-runway real life airports the general shape of the area is not square, because the terminals and other stuff do not need 2..3 kilometers in the other direction.
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>so you want the small airport to have a 12 tile runway, and the big airport 32?
19:57<thingwath>that would be nice
19:57<Char>10/20 would be okay as well i guess
19:58<Char>when the planes take more time on the airports
19:58<rubyruy>something like that yes
19:58<Char>it becomes less attactive to use planes for short distance flights
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>you should provide an early zeppelin airport ("heliport") then, because that doesn't need a long runway
19:58<Char>(< 100 tiles)
19:58<rubyruy>yeah maybe keep original small airport as zep port?
19:59<rubyruy>or have a empire state building type zep-port based on heliport code :)
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>remember that 100 tiles is almost half the (original) map
19:59<rubyruy>very large airports + higher running aircraft costs + higher aircraft buy costs == balanced air ? (maybe?)
19:59<Char>and then you can increase the travel costs for airplanes like crazy and give them their original speed
20:00<Char>probably you also need cargodest
20:00<thingwath>zeppelins can't travel very fast, so they are not so competitive to trains
20:00<Char>cause otherwise you just build 2-6 ultra-large airports
20:00<rubyruy>yeah i'm not really worried about the zeps
20:00<Char>at the edges of the map
20:00<rubyruy>actually even propeller plains aren't really competitive
20:00<rubyruy>but once jets show up it's game over trains
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>zeppelins are twice as fast as trains of the same era
20:00<ln>the size is 6×6 for the "normal" one now. i'd change it to something like 4×8.
20:00<Char>in theory
20:00<thingwath>how fast they are?
20:01<Char>usually one plays with 1/4 air speed
20:01<ln>20 tiles for runway is insane.
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>128 are the zeppelins i think
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20:01<Eddi|zuHause>ln: why? an airport should be significantly bigger than a train station
20:01<thingwath>with 1/4 ratio 128 is slower than most of the trains...
20:02<Char>actually than all trains ;)
20:02<Char>still it has the advantage of not needing any network
20:02<rubyruy>^^^ that
20:02<ln>Eddi|zuHause: from that perspective, yeah, it wouldn't be insane, but compared to current airport sizes.
20:02<rubyruy>that's like the biggest issue (if playing competitive)
20:02<Char>and especially on difficult terrain that is an advantage
20:02<thingwath>km or miles?
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>they also cost like 10 trains
20:03<thingwath>if miles, it's not so slow
20:03<thingwath>ok, that is slow :-)
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>which sane person counts in miles nowadays?
20:04<thingwath>umm... don't know.
20:04<Aali>there's sane people nowadays?
20:04<rubyruy>^ those places
20:05<rubyruy>isn't that just sad? :p
20:05<Char>Aali: i read "they are sane people nowadays?" instead of what you wrote :P
20:05<rubyruy>get with the program people! the british did and they INVENTED the mess
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>what's that? USA, Liberia and Thailand?
20:06<ln>i bet that map is related to STDs and not miles.
20:06<Char>something like that
20:06<Aali>i like the colorcoded age-of-consent map
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>care to show us?
20:07*SmatZ is happy to be old enough not to care about age-of-consent
20:07<Aali>its on wikipedia
20:07<ln>would be very idealistic to say e.g. britain isn't using miles.
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>and you think i will search wikipedia now just because you mentioned a random image?
20:07<ln>SmatZ: it's not about how old *you* must be, but how old she must be.
20:08<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: suit yourself :P
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>you, sir, are an idiot.
20:08-!-rortom [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>ln: it says so on wikipedia, it MUST be true!
20:10<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: because i don't care if you look at some random image?
20:10<ln>either be or will be
20:10<ln>err, become
20:12<thingwath>huhm, slow, you can travel 27 kilometers 44 minutes, even openttd zeppelin could beat that, I think
20:12*rortom_ throwing in random image:
20:14<SmatZ> random image
20:15<rortom_>/cat /dev/urandom > /dev/fb0
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20:18<ln>thingwath: in that google maps link of yours, the airport has an abandoned railway connection?
20:18<@DorpsGek>Sacro|Laptop: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
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20:21<thingwath>ln: yes
20:22<ln>thingwath: sad
20:22<thingwath>i don't know if it's really abandoned
20:23<thingwath>but it is certainly not used for personal transit, and it never was
20:24<thingwath>there are some fuzzy plans to make something about it, though
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20:24<ln>the airport would seem to be used for personal transit
20:24-!-murr4y [murray@2001:470:1f0a:1be::a1c0] has joined #openttd
20:25<thingwath>The airport of course is.
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>i so loathe google
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20:25<ln>is that TNT's plane on the left?
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>i can't follow such google maps links, it's always telling me that my browser is not supported
20:26<rortom_>what brower you use?
20:26<rortom_>you start like yorick ;)
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20:27<Eddi|zuHause>while it's fine when i just open a browser and type in
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>i use konqueror
20:27<thingwath>ln: I have no idea, what is 'TNT'? :-)
20:27<rortom>considering that google maps is just one big javascript hack ...
20:28<rortom>you knew those:
20:28<thingwath>Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. :-)
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>thingwath: it does, but your URL catcher ignores the trailing .
20:30<thingwath>thank you, you're right
20:30<ln>it most certainly is a TNT plane,
20:31<SpComb>hmm, a PHP rcon-web-ui
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20:39<rubyruy>are ECS and newcargo mutually exclusive?
20:40<rubyruy>it's really tricky to figure out compatibility for all of these :/
20:44<Aali>ECS vectors can't be used with other grfs that modify cargoes
20:44<Aali>(or, they can be, but the results wont be pretty)
20:44<thingwath>does anyone know, if it's possible to use CSDset with DBset?
20:45<thingwath>it worked, once, but doesn't, now
20:45<rubyruy>ok that makes sense
20:46<Aali>currently there's a hard limit of 32 different cargo types, and ECS defines them all
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>thingwath: there is a switch in the advanced settings: "allow more than one newgrf vehicle set" [don't switch on during a running game]
20:56<thingwath>yep, i know
20:57<thingwath>but I can't load both CSD and DB sets at once
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>gah... i need flexible bridges and diagonal stations...
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>thingwath: the grfs themselves might detect other grfs and then disable them
20:58<thingwath>but it worked once :-)
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>different order?
20:59<thingwath>doesn't help
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>decode the grf and remove the compatibility check?
21:00<thingwath>wouldn't be easier to just add that few vehicles I like from DB set to CSD one...? :-)
21:01<Char>did anyone ever play a game with ALL ecs vectors?
21:01<Char>seems to me like that might turn out pretty messy.
21:02<Aali>depends on how large your network is
21:02<Aali>but yes, its a little too much
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>i tried, but it was unplayably slow
21:02<Char>how large was the map?
21:02<Aali>you should only use the beta 5 vectors for now though
21:03<Aali>the others wont work properly after a certain in-game date
21:03<Aali>its the y2k bug, in openttd
21:03<Char>well, usually after like 25-50 years, the game gets boring anyways
21:04<Aali>i have a SP game thats in 2200 already, and the network isn't half-finished
21:05<Aali>admittedly, its 1024^2 and the network will cover the entire map and thats a little extreme, but still
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21:21<Eddi|zuHause>Char: with daylength 8, 25-50 years is a very long time ;)
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21:29<Sacro|Laptop>hmm, we might have ourselves a bug
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>have one on me, too
21:30<Sacro|Laptop>we have a bus, he's spazzing between his orders
21:31<Aali>build a road stop
21:31<Sacro|Laptop>Aali: he has 2 in his orers
21:31<Aali>articulated vehicles do that when they can't use the station
21:31<Aali>as i found out earlier tonight
21:32<Sacro|Laptop>Aali: Ahhhh
21:32<Sacro|Laptop>thanks :D
21:33<Sacro|Laptop>Aali: filed a bug report?
21:34<Aali>its not really a bug
21:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's called a "feature request"
21:34<Sacro|Laptop>Yes it is
21:34<Aali>what he said
21:34<Aali>you can request they change that behaviour into something more intuitive
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>articulated vehicles can neither overtake nor use non-drivethrough road stations
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it should at least throw an "invalid order" message
21:57<Sacro|Laptop>is there any way of freeing stuck vehicles?
21:57<Sacro|Laptop>thy just go 0-6mph and then 0
21:57<Sacro|Laptop>and not move
22:00<Aali>well, if they're stuck, you're going to have to fix that first :P
22:12<Char>with ECS, it is pretty hard to construct a stable network
22:13<Char>at least for me
22:13<Char>i over-feed the factory with iron ore
22:13<Char>the factory stops accepting iron ore
22:13<Char>iron ore doesnt get transported anymore
22:13<Aali>i just disable stockpiling, random industry closure and resource bodies
22:13<Char>my mines pickup station gets a really bad rating because of no pickup
22:14<Aali>which makes it pretty similar to vanilla, but with more cargo types
22:14<Char>factory starts re-accepting
22:14<Char>but all my mines have reduced production due to missing transport
22:14<Char>well, if i wanted vanilla i'd play vanilla
22:14<Char>i like the extra challenge :)
22:15<Aali>you should setup a transfer system
22:15<Aali>with an intermediate station to store excess ore
22:15<Char>doesnt work perfectly either, though
22:15<Aali>and feed the factory just the right amount of ore
22:15<Char>and the intermediate station doesnt store infinitely
22:15<Aali>of course not
22:15<Aali>but its better than the whole up&down cycle you get otherwise
22:16<Char>but yes, i get your point, and i am doing that partially
22:16<Char>and with stockpiles of ~10.000 tons of iron ore, i got a decent buffer
22:18<Char>i need some sleep
22:18<Char>cu later
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>i need, too, but i don't get any
22:19<Aali>i should have gone to sleep hours ago, now it's too late, so i'm just going to stay up all night
22:23<Sacro|Laptop>@seen alo*
22:23<@DorpsGek>Sacro|Laptop: Aloysha was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 26 weeks, 0 days, 0 hours, 16 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <Aloysha> booyah
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22:58<rubyruy>are there any sound patches anywhere?
22:58<rubyruy>like just replacing the sfx
22:58<rubyruy>adding variety etc
22:59<Aali>sound grfs?
22:59<rubyruy>yeah i guess
22:59<Aali>i wouldn't know where to look though
23:00<Aali>most vehicle sets replace those sound effects though
23:00<rubyruy>... the novelty wore off in 1998 :p
23:00<rubyruy>i guess major improvements would have to come as a source code change
23:00<rubyruy>acceleration sounds, choo choo noises etc
23:01<Aali>thats why i love the tropic refurbishment set
23:01<Eddi|zuHause>*dingdingding* *hoonk hoonk* *wooosh* <- the traditional sound of "desync error" ;)
23:01<Aali>no high-pitched noises, just a low dignified tone
23:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the sound of level crossings is annoying, but it is an important indicator that you left the game unpaused in the background :p
23:02<Aali>you know you left the game unpaused if you're anywhere near a sawmill
23:03<Aali>god they're so noisy
23:05<Eddi|zuHause>the worst sound ever is the reuse of the crashing sound for the gravel pit in PBI
23:05<rubyruy>oh i've been wanting this for a looooooong time: is there a key for closing windows?
23:05<rubyruy>preferably the one under my mouse pointer - or barring that, all of them
23:05<Eddi|zuHause>god i hate the associations i get there every time i hear that sound
23:06<Eddi|zuHause>rubyruy: the del key closes all windows that are not stickied
23:06<Eddi|zuHause>and ctrl+del closes even the stickied ones
23:06<rubyruy>no shortcut to just close 1?
23:06<Eddi|zuHause>(i think)
23:06<Eddi|zuHause>rubyruy: how would you decide which one?
23:06<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: ah yes, that one is annoying too, i always think i accidentally dynamited something every time it goes off
23:06<rubyruy>the one under the mouse pointer
23:07<rubyruy>game already has a concept of autofocus in a way
23:07<Eddi|zuHause>the game has practically no concept of focus...
23:07<Aali>it has no concept of focus without patches
23:08<rubyruy>hmm... well it should still be able to figure out which window is under the pointer nay?
23:09<rubyruy>like surely there's some code to figure this out so as to know which window's code to delegate the command to or somesuch
23:09<Aali>and those patches only make it possible to have several text boxes open at the same time, it does not care about windows AFAIK
23:09<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's a useless idea...
23:09<rubyruy>how do you manage window clutter?
23:09<rubyruy>just sticky + del?
23:09<Eddi|zuHause>i've moved the mouse to the "X" far faster than moved the hand from the mouse to the keyboard
23:10<Eddi|zuHause>i rarely have the need to use the "del" key
23:10<Aali>usually, you only need to close a few windows, or you only need to keep a few windows, in which case the current model works fine
23:11<rubyruy>well usually i play with 1 hand on mouse 1 hand on keyboard
23:11<rubyruy>around the OS i use Ctrl/Cmd+W to close windows quickly
23:11<Eddi|zuHause>typically, when my view gets too full, i have like 1 depot window and 2 vehicle windows, with half a dozen of subwindows open. then a few well placed clicks in the parent windows will fix that
23:11<rubyruy>well there's stuff like having a whole bunch of new vehicles open
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23:12<rubyruy>which are shared ordered anyway so you didn't even need their window in the first place
23:12<rubyruy>i guess the del thing will help with that though so i'll see if it still bugs me once i start using it
23:13<Eddi|zuHause>problem with the sticky button is, when i change the build toolbar, the sticky button of that one disappears
23:13<Eddi|zuHause>as in: it gets lifted
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23:33<rubyruy>can 1 way roads seriously not have corners?
23:33<rubyruy>or am i just building them wrong?
23:35<rubyruy> logging trucks!
23:36<rubyruy>actually anything trucks they refit
23:36<rubyruy>and look accordingly
23:36<rubyruy>this is really really really awsome - whole new game
23:36<Aali>you only need two one-way road tiles
23:36<Aali>entry and exit
23:36<rubyruy>woops wrong channel for that img
23:37<rubyruy>that makes sense
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 03 00:00:48 2008