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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-04

---Logopened Tue Nov 04 00:00:50 2008
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00:12<rubyruy>YAY i managed to make the newships tankers refittable now!
00:12<rubyruy>go me!
00:14<rubyruy>hmm i wonder how to make the ferries behave
00:14<rubyruy>is it possible to have a ship accept passengers OR tourists in any proportion?
00:17<rubyruy>actually for that matter how do you set multiple cargo types per ship
00:17<rubyruy>i see the default ferry has the 'cargo slot' property (0C) set to 00 (Passengers) - where does it's mail capacity come from?
00:19<rubyruy>oh nvm it only carriers passengers
00:19<rubyruy>do only airplanes get multiple cargo types?
00:23<rubyruy>refitaable is probably sufficient
00:38<Eddi|zuHause>airplanes are two vehicles
00:38<Eddi|zuHause>the passengers are transported in the plane, and the mail in the shadow of the plane
00:49<rubyruy>seriously?
00:49<rubyruy>wow
00:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, just like a train with a passenger wagon and a mail wagon
00:50<rubyruy>oh god damn it... the ECS patch for the US set is broken as well
00:50<rubyruy>tourists can ride mineral hoppers and the tanker can't transport refined products
00:51<rubyruy>what is ECS suppose to be played with anyway grumblegrumble
00:51<Eddi|zuHause>it isn't... it's beta :p
00:52<rubyruy>right right
00:52<rubyruy>still - promises were made http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ECSSupport
01:01<De_Ghosty>and
01:01<De_Ghosty>what's wrong with riding the mineral hopper?
01:13<George>Aali: I'd also suggest fix New ships GRF directly instead of fixing ECS adapter
01:14<George>As for transporting wrong cargo in the wagon - shouldn't it be reported to vehicles set author?
01:15<George>As for ECS adapters, it is very hard to make them work 100% correctly. It is much easier to change the GRF itself.
01:42<rubyruy>i've been editing the adapters so far *shrug*
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01:56<ln->guten morning
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02:07<rubyruy>oh this is funny... the US set works perfectly WITHOUT the adapter
02:09<rubyruy>i can finally play :p
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02:38<AgentLeMan>hello, everys body :o9
02:39<AgentLeMan>im having kinda a problem with my feederservice (im trying to explain it better this time :o) )
02:39<ln->*I'm
02:39<AgentLeMan>but first.... is anyone there?
02:39<ln->i am not here.
02:41<AgentLeMan>ln-, noted.
03:03<@petern>everys body?
03:04<AgentLeMan>well °grins°
03:04<AgentLeMan>bodies there are
03:04<AgentLeMan>but as usual in IRC, not always minds, as many are idling around.
03:07<AgentLeMan>are you then here, petern?
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03:18<dih>mornin
03:19<AgentLeMan>morning dih
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03:30<AgentLeMan>°waves°
03:30<@petern>Dihedral!
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07:26<TrueBrain>hi puzzies
07:29*dih purrs
07:29<dih>:-D
07:30<TrueBrain>good boy!
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07:53<TrueBrain>lalala
07:55<dih>nininini
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07:58*davis- hi
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08:01<TrueBrain>hi davis-
08:01<davis->:)
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08:56<Yexo>petern: is there a reason that vehicle groups names need to be unique between all groups instead of only between the groups of one player (or even per vehicle type per player)?
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09:05<SmatZ>Yexo: it has been discussed ; problem may arise when you buy a company
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09:05<SmatZ>then the group would need to be renamed, removed or whatever
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09:06<SmatZ>but yes, I think the current system is needlessly restrictive
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09:06<SmatZ>but nobody has complained so far
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09:08<Yexo>It's a bit of a problem when starting my AI, since it always tries to create a group "Small planes", and only one of the AIs will succeed, the others end up with "Group 2"
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09:12<fjb>Hello
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09:29<Char>cool
09:29<Char>a train cannot crash with itself
09:29<Char>however
09:29<Char>if you manage to get a train onto a circular path
09:29<Char>where it would crash with itself
09:29<Char>it will be there forever
09:29<Char>because
09:29<Char>you cannot get it off the circular path anymore
09:30<Char>cause all the circular path is occupied and you cannot build a way out
09:30<ln->that's when you need to call chuck norris.
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09:32<Char>well
09:32<Char>actually not
09:32<Char>cause you cannot get the train on the perfect circular path in the first place
09:33<Char>you need to have an entry
09:33<Char>which you can later use as an exit as well
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09:33<th1ngwath>you can remove it :-)
09:34<Char>no you cant
09:34<Char>cause there will be a train on it
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09:34<ln->*can't
09:34<Char>sorry ln for my imperfect english
09:34<Char>;)
09:34<@Rubidium>Char: just ignore ln, he's annoying anyways
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09:36<thingwath>but the train would have to turn around
09:36<thingwath>to leave the circle
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11:02<Eddi|zuHause><SmatZ> Yexo: it has been discussed ; problem may arise when you buy a company <- what speaks against prefixing the name with the company name of the old company in that case?
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11:04<Aali>or just renaming any conflicts
11:04<Aali>still, someone has to code it
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11:05<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: the maximum length of the names does
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11:07<Yexo>Maybe just deleting all groups from the buyed company is a solution
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>that seems a tiny bit radical...
11:08<Yexo>buying companies isn't possible in multiplayer anyway and the current ai doesn't use groups. NoAI AIs can (and do) use groups, but the player may have his own view on groups
11:09<SmatZ>I think it would be best to name groups (and vehicles) "SmallGroup (2)" or so if needed
11:09<SmatZ>only when names conflict
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but when you take over a company, you usually do not throw away that company's infrastructure and middle management, but slowly integrate it
11:09<SmatZ>it doesn't matter it is longer than MAX_GROUP_NAME_LENGTH
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11:11<Yexo>SmatZ: can having different (but both custom) names for groups/vehicles on the server and on clients lead to desyncs?
11:12<SmatZ>Yexo: I don't think so
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11:13<Yexo>good, otherwise FS#1923 might give even more problems
11:13<SmatZ>yes :)
11:14<DaleStan>Belugas: For houses/industry tiles, George wants recolor mode 3 (bits 14&15 of the sprite number both set) to mean "do not draw this sprite in transparent mode". Thoughts?
11:15<DaleStan>Could probably be added to stations too.
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11:19<@Belugas>DaleStan: i understand what you are proposing. not sure how easily it can be done, since we are translatin i load bits 14 and 15 meaning to our own representation
11:20<@Belugas>the consideration i have would rather be about user reactions: Would they consider it a bug that some of the objects on the map do not follow the transparent/invisible mode they requested?
11:21<DaleStan>That's already the case with bit 31.
11:23<DaleStan>That aside, the requested behaviour is already possible, by testing variable 1B (IIRC). This change would just make it easier.
11:23<DaleStan>... I'm not sure whether that's an argument for or against, actually.
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11:26<@Belugas>well... for sure, using 14 and 15 for something different simply mens that 14 and 15 and no longer separate flags, but are part of a new meaning, i think
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11:31<@Belugas>oh god.. i got it in reverse...
11:32<DaleStan>I think it should be pretty easy on my end.
11:32<@Belugas>i tough it was "do not hide this sprite" instead...
11:32<@Belugas>i've got to take a look during my luunch hour
11:33<@Belugas>and talk to the guys
11:33<@Belugas>i think it might be easy too, not sure though
11:33<frosch123>"TTDPatch will always keep variables 8E and 8F in sync with 93" <- what does that mean, or can I find the answer in the logs?
11:33<DaleStan>We already have that -- bit 30 (which is what I meant when I said "bit 31".)
11:37<DaleStan>frosch123: When an industry is created, vars 8E and 8F are set to "var9E * industryprod1rates[industry.type] / 16" and "var9E * industryprod2rates[industry.type] / 16", respectively (clamped to 0..FF, and with halves rounded up). TTDPatch preserves this through all changes of var9E.
11:38<frosch123>ok, so they are recomputed
11:38<DaleStan>Yes.
11:40<DaleStan>Our code is at patches/newindu.asm:6020-6026 and :6045-6053. esi points to the industry, ebx is the industry id, and edi points to var 9E.
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11:41<DaleStan>But I didn't copy that from TTD's industry initialization code, so it could have slightly different behaviour than TTD.
11:43<frosch123>Thanks, I read the wiki as if they were also incremented and decremented, which did not make a lot of sense :)
11:44<@Belugas>reboot time
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11:45<DaleStan>The first incarnation did exactly that, and Csaboka told me that no, that's not right.
11:45<batti5>if (ind->produced_cargo[i] != CT_INVALID && GetCargo(ind->produced_cargo[i])->label == 'WOOD') return true;, this gives a warning = station_cmd.cpp:161:90: warning: multi-character character constant in station_cmd any ideas?
11:45<frosch123>C is not Java
11:46<frosch123>but despite of that, testing a cargolabel does not make a lot of sense
11:47<DaleStan>Translate 'WOOD' to an integer. Or a named constant. (#define CARGOLABEL_WOOD <whatever>)
11:47<frosch123>and make it endian aware :)
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11:48*davis- dislikes java
11:50<DaleStan><whatever> being 0x444F4F57 or 0x574F4F44, depending on endianness.
11:50<+glx>anyway better use cargoclass
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause>batti5: i can immediately point out 3 flaws in there
11:53<frosch123>DaleStan, Belugas: var 1B is not supported because of desyncs
11:53<batti5><Eddi|zuHause> what?
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>1) strings must be enclosed in ""
11:54<frosch123>wrong
11:54<frosch123>it is not a string
11:54<batti5><Eddi|zuHause> can you fixit?
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>2) == does not compare strings, but compares addresses of strings
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>3) comparing the lables is bad, compare IDs instead, where you previously stored somewhere the ID of the wood cargo
11:55<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: typedef uint32 CargoLabel;
11:55<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: 'WOOD' is an integer
11:55<frosch123>'DOOW' is alsa an integer
11:56<batti5>all i tryed is to add a couple of stationnames
11:56<batti5>i dident touch other
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12:03*Belugas is heading for micro-wave hoven
12:03<@Belugas>lunch time has started
12:03*Belugas waves hello to frosch123
12:03<dih>enjoy
12:03*petern hungers
12:04<frosch123>DaleStan, Belugas, George: Using bits 14 and 15 would imply, that you can only draw normal sprites. I.e. no recoloured, e.g. with the random industry color ...
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12:26<George>frosch123: :( I hoped to see it recoloured.
12:27<George>DaleStan: I understand that I can check a var and have different graphics.
12:27<George>And what was the intention of bit 14? Were is it used? I mean could bit 15 mean recolour and bit 14 invisibility (bit 30 means visibility already, so a bit for invisibility is welcome). or may be a combination of bits 14,15 and 30 could define visibility/recolour?
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12:27<DaleStan>One of them means to draw "transparently"; the other means to draw with recoloring.
12:28<frosch123>George: you can see the effect of bit 14 with standard station roofs
12:28<frosch123>or the green glass in mb's newstations
12:29<frosch123>when bit 14 is set, the current pixel color from the screen is read, recolored using the recolor sprite in bits 16..29, and written back
12:29<frosch123>that is done for all pixels which are not transparent in the sprite of bits 0..13
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12:30<George>may be bit 14=1 and bit 30=1 would mean a normal sprite invisible in transparent mode?
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12:31<frosch123>no it means always transparent
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12:32<Wolf01>hello
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12:34<George>frosch123: But how can it be transparent in transparent mode if it is transparent? what is changed with such a sprite when transparency is on? If nothing, than bit 30 is useless for it, and a combination of bit 14 = 1 and bit 30 = 1 could be a special value for special behaviour?
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12:36<frosch123>currently bit 14,15,30 = (1,0,0) means that that the sprite modifies the screencontent using the recolor sprite from bits 16..29. When transparency is enabled it uses the default transparency-recolor sprite instead of bits 16..29
12:37<frosch123>though I would not be surprised, when ttdp behaves differently
12:37<frosch123>and (1,0,1) would mean that it always uses bits 16..29
12:38<frosch123>however, George, one special value is not enough.
12:39<DaleStan>That is, I believe, the way TTDPatch handles it too.
12:39<SmatZ>32bpp blitters don't use recolor sprites for BM_TRANSPARENT, that may be an issue
12:39<frosch123>that's a different issue :)
12:40<SmatZ>yeah, just if someone had idea to use "all to transparent" palette in this case :)
12:40<SmatZ>it would fail
12:40<@Belugas>no free bits available on those sprites ids, don't they?
12:41<frosch123>well, you could start that usually an action1 set will not contain 16384 sprites :)
12:41<frosch123>but that would not solve the issue for non-action1 sprites
12:41<Aali>yay, infinite loop
12:41<@Belugas>right
12:42<frosch123>so, actually (1,1,0) and (1,1,1) are free
12:44<George>Can one mean "Recoloured and hidden in transparent mode" and an other "Hidden in transparent mode"?
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12:45<DaleStan>Waste of a setting. Recolor with 775 if you don't want recoloring.
12:45<frosch123>true, that is also an option
12:46<frosch123>maybe 0x3ff instead of 775?
12:46<frosch123>0x3fff actually
12:46<DaleStan>And that frees up a spot for "transparent in normal mode, hidden in transparent mode".
12:47<DaleStan>0x3fff? 0x307 I can figure, but why 3FFF?
12:47<frosch123>someone might change sprite 0x307
12:48<frosch123>0x0000 means using default recolour sprite, so maybe 0x0001 for none
12:49<frosch123>but, true, 0x307 should be enough
12:50<frosch123>however, imo (1,1,1) should be kept for something more useful than "transparent in normal mode, hidden in transparent mode"
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13:14<dih>src/string.cpp:70: char* strecpy(char*, const char*, const char*): Assertion `dst <= last' failed.
13:14<dih>sorry - i dont have more info
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13:19<frosch123>you could at least specify the revision :)
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13:19<dih>always latest nightly ;-)
13:19<dih>14560#
13:20<dih>without the hash
13:20<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14564 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix (r14555): one more incorrect use of lastof()
13:20<frosch123>ok, smatz is always faster
13:21<SmatZ>:)
13:21<planetmaker>:D THAT was quick. Fast as lightening
13:21<dih>:-)
13:21<SmatZ>:-)
13:21*dih hugs SmatZ
13:22<SmatZ>I am ill, dih! :)
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>well, such bugs are easy to resolve when they are not the first incarnation
13:22<dih>slowly i am thinking my server really is paying out
13:22<SmatZ>hehe
13:22<dih>Eddi|zuHause, it's just finding them all :-P
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13:23<dih>eat that!
13:24-!-Hirundo is now known as Swallow
13:24<dih>:-P
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13:24<dih>wow
13:24<SmatZ>:-d
13:24<frosch123>I was just about to construct that one: grep -rI strecpy * | grep lastof | grep -v svn | grep -v "strecpy(\([^,]*\),.*lastof(\1)"
13:25<SmatZ>frosch123: try it :)
13:25<frosch123>in matches 5 other times
13:25<George>DaleStan: Does it mean that bit 15 is useless, because I can use recolour 775, and that's why it can be considerate as always 1, while bit 15 is used for the other purpose - invisible mode in transparent mode. For example in GRF version 8?
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13:26<frosch123>George: bit 15 is traditional ttd, and it is faster to draw a sprite with bit 15 cleared
13:26<George>frosch123: Draw a sprite?
13:26<frosch123>hmm, grf version 8. that's an idea, one could remove bit 15 in grf version 8
13:28<SmatZ>frosch123: are you going to check those matches? (grepped)
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13:29<frosch123>vehicle_gui.cpp is ok
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13:32<frosch123>driver.cpp does not neccessarily make sense, but should not trigger that assertion
13:33<frosch123>macos.mm is ok, but is commented out anyway
13:33<frosch123>SmatZ: done
13:34<SmatZ>great frosch123 :)
13:34-!-Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd
13:34<frosch123>/ } <- I will never again take a look at macos.mm
13:35<frosch123>*////
13:35*frosch123 does not understand that slash logic, but he meant two
13:35<SmatZ>hehe
13:36<Prof_Frink>s/\//\/\// ?
13:36<Aali>hmm
13:36<Aali>i need to talk to Celestar
13:36<SmatZ>s/V/W/
13:37<Aali>or someone else who understands the internal workings of cargodest
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13:39<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: how about you just ask the real question?
13:40<Aali>okay, is numskip ever supposed to be -1 in Routing_t::GetDestination?
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm, ok, that is very internal ;)
13:41<Aali>indeed
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>could it mean something like "invalid destination"?
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>-1 or 0xFF...F is a very popular value for those
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13:43<Aali>yes, but guesswork isn't going to help here :P
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, typically, those special values get a #define INVALID_<whatever> ((uint)(-1)) or something
13:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14565 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-04 18:44:06
13:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 5 fixed by tucalipe (5)
13:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: catalan - 5 fixed, 2 changed by arnaullv (7)
13:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: italian - 2 changed by lorenzodv (2)
13:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: latvian - 65 fixed, 1 changed by v3rb0 (66)
13:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: persian - 111 fixed by ali sattari (111)
13:45<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: its just a number, so nothing like that
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>of course it's just a number, because defines are resolved before compilation
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13:46<Eddi|zuHause>still such a define would occur in the code
13:46<@Belugas>here comes CHOCKY!
13:46<Aali>let me rephrase that, its used as a number
13:46<Aali>no magic values
13:47<SmatZ>OTTD uses mostly enums and static consts, not #defines
13:48<SmatZ>so the debugger should be able to assign the name for that value
13:49<Aali>does hg have a feature that will tell me when and by whom a certain line was changed?
13:49<SmatZ>Aali: hg blame
13:49<@Belugas>not me. I swear!!
13:50<Aali>ah, just like svn
13:50<Eddi|zuHause> * retval INVALID_STATION We can go to any station we wish to <-- straight from the documentation
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>although appears to be missing a @
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>routing.h:201
13:51<Aali>uh, yes, thats the return value
13:52<Aali>not what i was asking for
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see why numskip=-1 should be a problem
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13:56<Aali>its not a problem if there are other stations in the routecache
13:56<Aali>but if all stations end up with -1 you'll get an infinite loop
13:56<Eddi|zuHause> if (RandomRange(maxnumskip) < numskip) continue; <- means this check is always false
13:57<Aali>you do realize its unsigned, right?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>hm, no, it's an uint
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>this function lacks some serious description on how you should read it
13:59<Eddi|zuHause> uint sector = dist * 5 / maxdist; <- like what this value is supposed to tell us
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14:01<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, if you replace the 2000 by 1999, the infinite loop should disappear
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>might just be an oversight
14:02<Aali>but then -1 might be acceptable, and the source of the problem could be somewhere else
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>-1 should never be acceptable for an uint, unless it's specifically documented
14:03<Aali>sure, it has other codestyle-related issues
14:04<SmatZ>UINT_MAX is there for this purpose (or is it MAX_UINT?)
14:05*Belugas nods
14:06<Aali>but if this really is the source of the problem, any station that produces 2000 units of cargo in a month would cause openttd to hang
14:06<Aali>i can't believe that would go unnoticed for two months
14:06<SmatZ>stations don't produce cargo
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14:06<SmatZ>and you are talking about cargodets, right?
14:07<Aali>*any station recieves 2000 units of cargo from industries
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, cargodest
14:07<Aali>are you happy now?
14:07<Aali>:P
14:07<SmatZ>yes :)
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14:08<SmatZ>where did they go?
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>code says "origin this month", not "production this month"
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, last month, but doesn't matter ;)
14:09<Aali>yes, and it stores how much cargo originated at that station
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>i never ever had a source station with that kind of throughput
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14:11<Aali>i was waay over that when this happened
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>i mean like... not in 2 months, but in like 15 years of TT...
14:11<Aali>unless one unit of coal weighs more than a few tonnes
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14:12<Aali>i was lucky enough to have all the coal mines on screen when it happened, let me get a screenshot
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>don't bother
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>i have seen plenty of these games...
14:13<Aali>i used ECS in this game though
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>they so totally do not match my style of playing
14:13<Aali>you can get more than 1000 tonnes from a single coal mine
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i occasionally had mines with output of 1000 (like 10 times of standard), but i never managed to have them grow beyond 2000
14:15<Aali>http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3063/cargodesthangjq4.png
14:16<Aali>the station serves all those coal mines
14:18<Aali>this was actually just a test game for very high cargo weight multiplier
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14:18<Aali>it was at x50 at that point, my poor trains were struggling :P
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14:21<Wolf01>which industries grfs are you using?
14:21<Aali>ECS
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14:22<Wolf01>uhm
14:22<Wolf01>There's a new version?
14:22<Aali>beta 5
14:22<Wolf01>oh
14:22<Wolf01>I bet I have beta 4
14:23<Wolf01>I never managed to deactivate the stockpile function
14:23<Aali>just change the grf parameter?
14:23<Wolf01>Seem that with beta 4 doesn't work
14:24<Aali>it should
14:24<Aali>there's no instant cargo generation though, you can't change that
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14:43<Aali>ah, there was definitely something else going on
14:43<Aali>the pickup station shouldn't be considered as a target
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14:45<Aali>unless of course there was a coal mine at the drop and a power station at the pickup
14:45<Aali>so thats why it hasn't been discovered before ;)
14:50<Wolf01>ECS question: "No mine closure. The mine should never close unless it is exhausted." with mine you mean all primary industries or only coal/iron ore mines?
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15:06<George>Mines are: iron ore, coal, copper ore, limestone, sand, potash, sulphur mines, oil wells and oil rig. Also brick works is planned to be recoded as a mine.
15:06-!-Swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
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15:11<Nite_Owl>Hello all
15:17<Wolf01>thank you George
15:18<Aali>that does indeed trigger it
15:19<Aali>if 2000 or more cargo units originate at a station and you try to transport the same cargo type back to it, you'll get a nice complete lockup
15:27-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@p5B0DA23D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
15:27-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
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15:30<@Celestar>\o
15:30<welshdragon>has anybody used putty to ssh tunnel via a server to play openttd?
15:30<Aali>Celestar: just in time
15:31<Aali>i have just pinned down a pretty nasty bug in cargodest
15:31<@Celestar>you have?
15:31<Aali>< Aali> if 2000 or more cargo units originate at a station and you try to transport the same cargo type back to it, you'll get a nice complete lockup
15:32<Aali>that was the last line before you joined, even :P
15:32<Aali>the problem is in Routing_t::GetDestination
15:32<Aali>numskip becomes -1
15:33<Wolf01>George, is it normal that the coal left decrease with the time also with the parameter set to 15? (the remaining time is 0 months, so endless mines should be enabled)
15:33<Aali>and since its unsigned, thats "bigger" than maxnumskip, and the loop never ends
15:33<@Celestar>but it doesn't lock up?
15:33<Aali>yes it does
15:34<@Celestar>interesting
15:34<@Celestar>because it never did for me up to now ^^
15:35<Aali>well, you need more than 2000 cargo units flowing/month
15:35<@Celestar>with passengers, that should be possible, no?
15:35-!-Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@resnet707.bournemouth.ac.uk] has joined #openttd
15:35<@Celestar>hm .. guess not, it's only origin, not transfer
15:35<Aali>passengers are special
15:35-!-NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@80.101.115.82] has joined #openttd
15:35<Aali>well yes
15:36<@Celestar>so basically the -1 is stupid
15:36<Aali>or you could make it signed
15:37<Aali>that would fix the problem without changing anything else
15:37<@Celestar>that's not the idea (=
15:37<@Celestar>(it being signed I mean)
15:37<Aali>yeah, i figured
15:37<@Celestar>I just wonder why the HELL I have the -1 there :P
15:40<@Celestar>I'll just remove it
15:40<Aali>well, without it, numskip would become 40 for unserviced stations, but that shouldn't cause any problems
15:40<@Celestar>it shouldn't
15:40<@Celestar>at least 39 or 40 shouldn't cause problems, should it?
15:40<Aali>nah
15:40<Aali>try it ;)
15:40<@Celestar>er yes it will
15:40<@Celestar>if (RandomRange(maxnumskip) < numskip) continue;
15:40<@Celestar>same problem, other place (=
15:41<Aali>oh, right
15:41<Aali>just put +1 there then
15:41<Aali>and get rid of the -1's
15:41<@Celestar>nah
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15:41<@Celestar><= instead of < i'd say
15:42-!-sigmund [~sigmund@91.80-202-245.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
15:42<@Celestar>hm.
15:42<Aali>ah, yes, that is a better solution
15:42<@Celestar>this whole GetDestination thingy is stupid. I need to complete my less-random approach
15:42<@Celestar>hm .
15:42<@Celestar>RandomRange(maxnumskip) will yield a number between 0 and 39
15:43<Aali>so that wont work anyway
15:43<Aali>unless you add +1
15:43<@Celestar>how did this work before? :P
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15:44<@Celestar>hm ..
15:44-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:44<ln->@seen Bjarni
15:44<@DorpsGek>ln-: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 18 hours, 39 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Bjarni> goodnight (what's left of it anyway)
15:45-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
15:45<@Celestar>Aali: http://www.fvfischer.de/obiwanfix.diff
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15:45<@Celestar>agreed on that? (=
15:46<Aali>nah, put the +1 inside randomrange
15:47<@Celestar>products the world doesn't need: Audi demonstrated an A4 powered by Biogas.
15:47-!-TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@213.237.107.120.adsl.od.worldonline.dk] has joined #openttd
15:47<@Celestar>it had 585 HP and went 327km/h
15:47*blathijs slaps himself
15:47<blathijs>I read "585 Hitpoints" :-)
15:47<Aali>and the other numskip assignment has a -1, while not a problem, that should probably go away as well
15:48<@Celestar>blathijs: lol .. me too on second thought :P
15:48<@Celestar>all the GetDestination was really a q&d solution. apparently it shows
15:49<Aali>heh
15:49<ln->McCain!
15:49<Aali>it has worked quite well up until now though
15:49<@Celestar>ln-: what about him?
15:51<ln->Celestar: i'm attempting to create discussion by creating the false impression that he has won or something.
15:51<@Celestar>ln-: YOU FAILED
15:52<ln->i have much experience with failing
15:52<@Celestar>and the thought of McCain winning is exactly scary for me personally
15:52<@Celestar>isn't
15:52<@Celestar>*
15:52<ln->freud?
15:52<@Celestar>not really
15:52<@Celestar>lazy fingers :P
15:53<ln->the problem is that i'm damn tired
15:53<@Celestar>I'm just amazed that most europeans think that with a new president, the whole US policy will do a one-eighty.
15:55<@Celestar>wth
15:55<@Celestar>[SRC] Compiling pbs.cpp
15:55<@Celestar>make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/vici/openttd-cargodest/objs/debug'
15:55<@Celestar>make: *** [all] Error 2
15:55<ln->well their president does have ridiculously much influence on their foreign policy and other stuff.
15:55<@Rubidium>Celestar: don't you? It'll change it's heading by approximately 1.80 degrees
15:55<@Rubidium>Celestar: sources.list contains a file that doesn't exist on the FS
15:56<@Celestar>Rubidium: I'd say maybe 15 degrees
15:56<@Celestar>it ALWAYS does a make reconfigure as well
15:56<@Celestar>:o
15:56*Celestar goes cleaning this up
15:59<@Celestar>something is seriously rotten
15:59<@Celestar>the make gives me kioslave errors now O_o
16:01<@Celestar>http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1243/1 <= heh this is cool reading
16:02*SmatZ wishes to have time to read it :)
16:03-!-Ammller [~Ammler@adsl-84-227-144-250.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:03<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: do you know, how to disable "overhead" traffic in Konversation
16:04<Ammler>if I connect twice to this server, I will be kicked with "Excess Flood"
16:05<@Celestar>back in 5
16:08*Celestar wonders why the human digestive system misses a reset button
16:08<Wolf01>'night
16:08-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host124-61-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:09<@Rubidium>Celestar: it has, but reboots aren't instant
16:09<@Celestar>apparently
16:09<@Celestar>my restting takes 3 days now
16:09<@Celestar>:S
16:09<@Celestar>resetting*
16:10<SmatZ>:-x
16:10<SmatZ>you don't eat?
16:10-!-yorick [yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
16:10<@Celestar>I do
16:11<@Celestar>but mainly I'm drinking about 10 liters of water a day that get ejected very quickly on the wrong end.
16:11<@Celestar>I'm beginning to feel like a continuous-flow water heater.
16:12<SmatZ>hehe
16:12<SmatZ>I heard someone died after drinking too much water too quickly
16:12<SmatZ>*read
16:12<Aali>its a well known fact that you can die from an overdose of water
16:13<@Celestar>overdosing water is difficult if you shit 3 gallons of it a day.
16:13<Aali>indeed
16:13<@Celestar>keeping the electrolytes balanced is another issue ...
16:13<dih>Celestar, you are not supposed to punp it up your ass
16:13<@Celestar>oh ..
16:13<@Celestar>I'm not?
16:15-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff162.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:15<@Celestar>:o Chelsea trails 0-3
16:17<@Celestar>1-3
16:17<@Celestar>:P
16:19*Celestar thinks he kind of killed the conversation
16:19<@Celestar>Aali: problem fixed on hg repo
16:20<Aali>yeah, i saw it
16:21<@Celestar>dih: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF2djJcPO2A
16:22<dih>yeha - that things funny
16:23*Celestar rofls
16:23<@Celestar>kannscht des grad bidde nommal sage?
16:23<dih>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8DngrgIpS0
16:25<TrueBrain>I hate youtube
16:26<@Celestar>dih: you know Bird and Fortune?
16:26<dih>yes :-D
16:26<@Celestar>:D
16:26<dih>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=attWI5Z_pok <- also a good episode :-)
16:27<@Celestar>still haven't decided which one is my favorite
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16:28<dih>the germans :-P
16:29<@Celestar>?
16:29<@Celestar>haven't seen that one yet
16:29<dih>i love the nazi walk
16:29<dih>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k7U-_tJVmw
16:31<dih>hihi - this is so funny
16:32<dih>"you started it"
16:33<Ammler>I got that msg (Reconfig done. Please re-execute make.), if I run make but compile continues, do I really need to rerun make? or did that happen automatically?
16:34<dih>?
16:34<dih>lost me right there
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16:40<rortom>good evening all
16:41<rortom>uhm
16:41<rortom>about me desync problems
16:41<rortom>same GRF, 0.3.6 = stable
16:42<rortom>nightly = desync always after ~50 game years
16:42<Ammler>0.3 :P
16:42<rortom>*0.6.3 ;)
16:42<rortom>was a long day for me today ;)
16:42<Ammler>which GRF?
16:43<Ammler>usually, 0.6 is going to desync, not nightly :-)
16:43-!-FloSoft [~sifldoer@g230005011.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: computer has gone to sleep]
16:44<rortom>http://www.openttd.org/en/server/3040
16:44<rortom>nightly is much more unstable then 0.6.x atm :\
16:45<dih>rortom: hence 'nightly'
16:45<dih>it's a snapshot build
16:45<dih>you should know about those things
16:45<SmatZ>why unstable?
16:45<Ammler>but I have other experience about nightly
16:45<SmatZ>[22:42:02] <rortom> nightly = desync always after ~50 game years <-- not that serious...
16:47<rortom>dih: normally nightlies are more stable then the last release for me, just not recently
16:47<dih>your 'normally' is not the definition of a snatpshot build
16:48<rortom>SmatZ: its bad if you cannot continue a game because its just desyncing, frustrating
16:48<rortom>sure
16:48<rortom>i just said
16:48<rortom>im used that you provide good snapshot quality ;)
16:48<SmatZ>aha
16:50<Aali>if you can reproduce the desync 10 times out of 10 it should be easy to fix
16:50<Aali>since it doesn't happen in 0.6.3
16:50<rortom>it was "just" 4/4 times, then switched back to 0.6.3
16:52<@Celestar>Rubidium is _the_ desync killing man
16:53<rortom>hehe ;)
16:53<rortom>i guess its manualy bug finding every time?
16:53<rortom>with printf and lots of work involved?
16:53<Aali>rortom: so how do i reproduce it? whats your setup?
16:54-!-TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@213.237.107.120.adsl.od.worldonline.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:54<rortom>Aali: http://www.openttd.org/en/server/3040
16:54-!-TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@213.237.107.120.adsl.od.worldonline.dk] has joined #openttd
16:54<rortom>oh wait
16:54<rortom>wrong setup
16:54<rortom>let me restart it
16:54<@Celestar>rortom: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Network/Desync_debugging
16:54*SmatZ doesn't let rortom restart it, sorry :-x
16:54<Aali>well, i would have to run it on my machine
16:59<rortom>Aali: pls refresh, should run with the correct GRFs now
16:59<rortom>thanks Celestar and Aali :)
17:00-!-Char [~Ich@d83-189-152-249.cust.tele2.ch] has joined #openttd
17:00<Aali>those grfs shouldn't be a problem
17:00<rortom>yeah, *should* ;)
17:00<rortom>could be that 0.6.3 removed some GRFs :(
17:00-!-Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-96-107.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
17:00<rortom>from the list i mean
17:01<Aali>does the server get alot of traffic?
17:01<Ammler>I only know of desyncs if you mix GRF with static grfs
17:01<Ammler>but that should be fixed in trunk
17:04<@Celestar>Aali: what does that have to do with anything?
17:05<Aali>Celestar: i assume it doesn't just desync all by itself without anyone actually playing :P
17:06-!-De_Ghosty [~s@76-10-132-242.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:06<@Celestar>Aali: the server can't desync
17:07<rortom>mh i should start a second test server
17:07<rortom>and let that desync with the nightlies
17:07<Aali>Celestar: of course not, but if no-one is building anything, it's not going to desync unless there's something wrong with the server
17:07<rortom>mh
17:07<rortom>maybe test it with stupid multiplayer ai?
17:07<@Celestar>Aali: it can desync even then
17:08<@Celestar>if there's a bug
17:08<Aali>Celestar: sure, if the bug is in any of the features that run without player interaction
17:09<@Celestar>a *lot* a features run without players
17:09<Aali>but not all of them, and if there was a problem with them, everyone would get these desyncs
17:09<@Celestar>aye
17:09-!-NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@80.101.115.82] has quit [Quit: http://www.interplay.com/]
17:10<@Celestar>Aali: you need to understand what a desync is first.
17:10<Aali>i know what a desync is
17:10<@Celestar>good.
17:10<@Celestar>cuz few do (=
17:11<rortom>;)
17:11<rortom>thanks for the help :)
17:11<@Celestar>np
17:11<Ammler>another pro for noai on clients
17:11<@Celestar>?
17:11<rortom>dont you do some MP stress testing games stuff?
17:12<Ammler>you could let them play until it desyncs :-)
17:12<rortom>^ thats what i mean :)
17:12<Aali>rortom: if you can, leave a game running with a few dummy clients and see what happens
17:12<@Celestar>rortom: why stress testing?
17:12<rortom>idk why it happens really
17:12<rortom>but i will try to setup such a game
17:12<Ammler>but sadly, "they" decided to not let ai runs on cleints :-(
17:12<Aali>if it does indeed desync on its own, it'll be a simple matter of finding the revision where it was introduced
17:12<rortom>can you speed up the game's internal clock somehow?
17:13<Aali>not in MP
17:13<rortom>like simulate as fast as possible?
17:13<rortom>mhm :
17:13<rortom>:\
17:13<rortom>if i hack server and client?
17:13<Ammler>it might desync then :P
17:13<@Celestar>rortom: I know why it happens
17:13<planetmaker>rortom: daylength patch
17:14-!-Netsplit synthon.oftc.net <-> scorpio.oftc.net quits: wgrant
17:14<rortom>o_O
17:14-!-Netsplit over, joins: wgrant
17:14<planetmaker>patch by Celestar ! yeah :)
17:14<rortom>daylenght patch?
17:14<rortom>was it added finally?
17:14<planetmaker>that's a patch which modifies game speed. No, it's still a patch.
17:14<@Celestar>rortom: it happens because the PRNG on the server and clients have different outputs :P
17:15<Ammler>still a patch, not a advanced setting :-P
17:16<planetmaker>yeah. That's a place where this distinction is quite adequate :)
17:16<Aali>anyways, the whole thing is more or less meaningless if you're not using the original, unmodified nightly
17:16<@Celestar>the TTRS can cause problems
17:16<@Celestar>well ..
17:16<@Celestar>afaik it's known to cause problems
17:16<rortom>Celestar: oh, really :P
17:16<@Celestar>mostly in the year 1970 or so
17:17<Ammler>rortom: if it desync, did you need to restart the server?
17:17<rortom>yes
17:17<Ammler>or just rejoin and continue?
17:17<@Celestar>sounds very TTRSish to me
17:17<rortom>i can rejoin and directly desync again
17:17<rortom>~ 10 secs ingame or so
17:17<Ammler>Celestar: something similar we had on our test server?
17:18<@Celestar>possibly yes.
17:18<Aali>wasn't that fixed?
17:18<@Celestar>afaik that cannot be fixed, since it is a flaw in the TTRS or summin
17:18<@Celestar>I'm sure petern and Belugas know more about it
17:19<Aali>someone should fix TTRS, then
17:19<@Celestar>or make a workaround grf :P
17:19<Ammler>hmm, was that George?
17:21<Ammler>good night everybody...
17:22<planetmaker>night Ammler
17:22<rortom>night
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17:30<@Celestar>I'm going to sleep as well.
17:30<@Celestar>gnight
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17:41<ln->20 dead in germany :/
17:42<+tokai>Only? I expected much more people die everyday in Germany.
17:43<rortom>huh?
17:43-!-TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@213.237.107.120.adsl.od.worldonline.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:43<rortom>argh, highway accident :(
17:44<Nite_Owl>Later all
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17:46<thingwath>20 people in a single highway accident?
17:49<ln->tokai: an excellent topic to joke about.
17:50<+tokai>ln-: I didn't joke.
17:52<@Rubidium>when it's 20 at once it's notable, when there are 10 accidents with 3 nobody cares...
17:53<ln->"Beim Brand eines Reisebusses auf der Autobahn A2 bei Hannover sind Polizeinangaben zufolge mindestens 20 Menschen, überwiegend Rentner, ums Leben gekommen. Das Fahrzeug hat während der Fahrt Richtung Berlin Feuer gefangen - ein Fahrgast soll heimlich auf der Toilette geraucht haben."
17:56<thingwath>Rubidium: such accidents are quite often driver's fault
17:57<ln->thingwath: not this time, as seen above.
17:59<thingwath>would have to translate it with google or something :-)
17:59<thingwath>and I meant those smaller accidents
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19:28<Char>hmmm
19:28<Char>lots of people leaving
19:28<Aali>its getting late
19:30<Sacro>election night
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19:37<Char>hmmm
19:37<Char>but will be a long election night.
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19:50<benjamingoodger>agh
19:50<benjamingoodger>the university of kent anime society has become consumed by a debate about the election
19:50<benjamingoodger>it's not even our damned election!
19:51<benjamingoodger>and it's an anime society!
19:51<thingwath>:-)
19:52<thingwath>I haven't noticed any debate about the elections
19:52<thingwath>well, except this one
19:55<benjamingoodger>I am arguing with what must be the UK's only mccain supporter
19:55<Sacro>mmmcian
19:56<benjamingoodger>he says that obama is a useless flip-flopper and mccain is the only one with the guts to do anything once elected
19:56<benjamingoodger>I disagree
19:56<Sacro>mccain will just go blow up the gooks
19:56<benjamingoodger>I say that mccain has sold out his values by courting the religious right, and that palin is a monstrous hack
19:56<Sacro>i'd do palin
19:57<benjamingoodger>palin is "a ludicrous, contemptable figure", says a BBC analyst :D
19:57<benjamingoodger>I do love the BBC at times --- it is simultaneously the worst and best broadcasting institution in the world
19:57<thingwath>that would be easy, if it were the only one
19:57<benjamingoodger>yeah
19:58<benjamingoodger>it manages despite being one of hundreds :D
19:58<Sacro>http://maps.google.com/help/maps/elections/#2008_election
19:58<benjamingoodger>ah, cool, thanks Sacro! I owe you a drink
19:58<Sacro>ooh
19:58<Sacro>i have more links :p
19:59<Sacro>http://hosted.ap.org/specials/election_night_2008/election_map_premium/index.html?SITE=MASPDELN
19:59<thingwath>it's scary, more than our regional elections few weeks ago
20:00<Sacro>TEN SECONDS CHAPS
20:00<Sacro>BRACE YOURSELVES
20:00<Sacro>:D
20:00<benjamingoodger>Sacro: you only get one drink, I'm not made of money
20:00<Sacro>:(
20:01<Sacro>where abouts in the UK are you@?
20:01<benjamingoodger>cornwall
20:01<benjamingoodger>but I'll be in kent from september next year
20:01<Sacro>ah
20:01<benjamingoodger>university woot
20:01<Sacro>daaaaaaarn saaaaaaaaaarth
20:01<benjamingoodger>er, quite
20:01<benjamingoodger>daun sooth.
20:02<benjamingoodger>yourself?
20:02<Sacro>'ull
20:03<benjamingoodger>ah
20:04<benjamingoodger>I've never been there
20:04<benjamingoodger>but I've studied the erosion of the region's coastline in geography ^^
20:06<benjamingoodger>hmm
20:06<benjamingoodger>interesting
20:06<benjamingoodger>for SC...
20:06<benjamingoodger>AP is calling south carolina for mccain
20:07<benjamingoodger>but obama has a majority of the votes!
20:07<benjamingoodger>and a 3:1 ratio of districts/counties/whatever
20:09<thingwath>huhm
20:10<Sacro>lol
20:11<Sacro>yeah, the sea is noming our costline
20:12<thingwath>luckily we don't have any
20:12<Sacro>hmm
20:12<Sacro>is there a czech navy?
20:13<thingwath>No. :-)
20:13<Sacro>mmm
20:13*Sacro plans an invasion by boat
20:13<thingwath>interesting idea
20:15<benjamingoodger>heh
20:15<benjamingoodger>ok, obama has the following:
20:16<benjamingoodger>maine, vermont, mass., connecticut, new jersey, delaware, maryland, DC and illinois
20:16<benjamingoodger>78 votes so far.
20:17<Sacro>NJ?
20:17<Sacro>i see it blue
20:18<Sacro>but 0% have returned
20:18<benjamingoodger>yes
20:18<benjamingoodger>AP have called it for obama anyway
20:18<benjamingoodger>I'll let you know if it changes --- according to fivethirtyeight there is a 0% chance of this
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20:23<benjamingoodger>obama has new hampshire
20:23<thingwath>our local newspapers are very optimistic about obama, lala
20:24<mikegrb>nj is die hard blue
20:25*mikegrb kisses the nj ground beneath his feat
20:25<mikegrb>!
20:25<mikegrb>s/feat/feet/
20:26<thingwath>how many browser crashes this night...
20:28<benjamingoodger>s/browser/IIS/
20:28<thingwath>I don't have any IIS. :-)
20:29<thingwath>but my browser doesn't like flash graphics, much :-/
20:31<benjamingoodger>mmm
20:31<benjamingoodger>I refer to microsoft's http server
20:31<benjamingoodger>it is incompetently engineered
20:31<benjamingoodger>and therefore likely to crash where used to serve election data on popular sites
20:32<thingwath>Server: Oracle-Application-Server-10g/10.1.3.1.0 Oracle-HTTP-Server OracleAS-Web-Cache-10g/10.1.2.3.0
20:32<thingwath>(http://volby.cz/index_en.htm)
20:33<thingwath>and did crash so many times... :-)
20:33<Sacro>hmm
20:34<Sacro>101% in texas
20:34<Sacro>50/50 R/D
20:34<Sacro>and 1% O
20:34<SmatZ>flawless victory
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20:34<benjamingoodger>hmm
20:34<benjamingoodger>mccain appears to have won TX though
20:34<benjamingoodger>by 9500 votes...
20:37<benjamingoodger>oh, it's now 30000
20:37<SmatZ>it will be interesting if McCain wins
20:37<benjamingoodger>he won't win
20:37<benjamingoodger>obama might win texas, though......that would just be disturbing
20:37<thingwath>who knows :-)
20:37<+glx>GW didn't win
20:38<SmatZ>:)
20:38<benjamingoodger>texas voting for democrats...
20:38<Char>TX? what is TX? texas?
20:38<benjamingoodger>yes
20:38<Char>which site are you checking at?
20:38<Char>cause i use a german news site which might be lagging behind
20:39<benjamingoodger>AP, Google, BBC, FiveThirtyEight.com
20:39<Char>and, another question: whom did you vote for? :P
20:39<benjamingoodger>I live on Great Britain, I'm not allowed to vote in US elections
20:39<benjamingoodger>though I would have voted for obama, naturally
20:40<SmatZ>why?
20:40<benjamingoodger>erm...
20:40<benjamingoodger>because I prefer his policies?
20:40<benjamingoodger>I am also disgusted by the mccain campaign's conduct
20:41<SmatZ>I don't like showmen... and from what I saw, both are showmen... so neither is good for me :)
20:41<benjamingoodger>and sarah palin is a horrifying woman
20:42<SmatZ>thanks for answer
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>95% of the people in this channel are not eligible to vote in an US election...
20:42<benjamingoodger>surely more than that
20:42<benjamingoodger>:D
20:42<Char>mikegrb seems to be american
20:42<Char>but i guess he voted obama
20:43<Char>i thought there might be a majority of americans online at the moment
20:43<Char>looking at the time
20:43<thingwath>don't think so :-)
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>americans are not as train crazy as the europeans :)
20:44<SmatZ>hehe
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>the majority in here traditionally is british, german and dutch
20:44*mikegrb nods
20:44<mikegrb>amerikans are poorly represented in all things choochoo
20:45<benjamingoodger>:)
20:46<benjamingoodger>I think perhaps the US has less tendency to amarac
20:46*mikegrb is fortunate to have a 1" scale 7.5" gauge rail park 15 minutes from his house though
20:46<benjamingoodger>ooh, cool
20:46<mikegrb>http://www.jerseyshorelivesteam.com/SJLSatwork.html
20:46<thingwath>and some real railway? :-)
20:46<mikegrb>I just discovered it recently
20:46<mikegrb>well that's the bad thing
20:47<benjamingoodger>thingwath: don't be silly
20:47<SmatZ>actually I don't understand why media here are so interested in US elections... whoever wins, not much will change for us
20:47<mikegrb>I moved and I get this fake trains nearby
20:47<mikegrb>but no real ones
20:47<mikegrb>though the sttate does have some commuter trains and I do use them sometimes when going to nyc
20:47<Eddi|zuHause>with bush out of the picture, it can only get better...
20:47<benjamingoodger>SmatZ: well, my country will withdraw from this massive and debilitating war in Iraq
20:47<SmatZ>haha nice little train :)
20:48<Char>SmatZ: well i think in the long run it does affect us
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>he was clearly the worst president of the US since <who remembers this guy before Lincoln?>
20:48<SmatZ>benjamingoodger: don't both candidates want to leave Iraq in ~3-4 years? can you trust them?
20:49<benjamingoodger>SmatZ: mccain wants to withdraw by 2013
20:49<benjamingoodger>palin wants to WIN
20:49<benjamingoodger>obama, I think, wants to leave as soon as possible
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>neither "win" nor "soon" are realistic in iraq...
20:50<SmatZ>benjamingoodger: it will be interesting how the war will continue in reality
20:50<benjamingoodger>we shouldn't trust anyone, but we have to trust someone...
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>they'll have to put up with that problem for the next 20 to 40 years...
20:50<benjamingoodger>hmmmm
20:50<benjamingoodger>I think the iraqis will
20:50<benjamingoodger>the US may not have to for much longer
20:50<benjamingoodger>the war may last only ten years
20:51<thingwath>that model engine has only two powered axles?
20:51<benjamingoodger>but if palin's in charge (which she might be, if mccain dies, poor old man) then we're fucked, if you'll pardon the expression
20:51<Char>great, the voting stops in five hours in california, but the election might already be a safe bet by then
20:51<Char>alaska is even worse
20:51<benjamingoodger>Char: it's a safe bet now. california's just a formality :D
20:52<Char>ends in nine hours
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>i thought california was as democratic as it gets :p
20:52<thingwath>alaska has three votes, unlikely to change anything
20:52<Char>it is
20:52<Char>yeah i know
20:52<Char>still
20:52<Char>weird
20:52<Char>thats like
20:52<benjamingoodger>the tipping point seems to be florida (currently 51.3% obama) and virginia (53.5%)
20:52<Char>"obama is president for sure. whom do you want to vote for?"
20:53<Char>i mean
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's more weird that the americans can get away with doing an election on a weekday
20:53<benjamingoodger>yeah
20:53<Char>if obama gets florida....
20:53<Char>well
20:53<benjamingoodger>if obama gets florida he has practically won
20:53<Char>then the race is pretty much over
20:53<benjamingoodger>if mccain gets it, obama is likely to still win
20:53<thingwath>I'm hungry :-)
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>if gore had won florida, he'd have won, too...
20:53<benjamingoodger>if obama gets virginia, mccain needs florida to win
20:53<Char>i guess obama will be partying before the last voters vote.
20:53<benjamingoodger>well
20:53<benjamingoodger>they don't actually need everyone to vote
20:54<Char>i know
20:54<Char>still, its weird
20:54<benjamingoodger>if obama gets 271 electoral votes, it doesn't matter how many mccain gets after that
20:54<Eddi|zuHause><Char> i guess obama will be partying before the last voters vote. <- do you remember how they tried that in germany?
20:54<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: do you remember how they tried it in the US in 2000?
20:55<benjamingoodger>FOX called Florida for Bush too early, and Bush became president-elect despite not being elected in Florida!
20:55<@petern>do you remember how they tried it in F1 on sunday :D
20:55<benjamingoodger>petern: heheheh
20:55<Char>i guess chicago will have one of the greatest parties ever tonight
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't follow F1, what happened there?
20:56<Char>Eddi|zuHause: no, actually i dont
20:56<benjamingoodger>Char: bloody hell, it's all blue!
20:56<benjamingoodger>:D
20:56<Char>Eddi|zuHause: hamilton won.... basically on the last kilometer
20:57<@petern>Eddi|zuHause: hamilton gained a position after massa had crossed the line
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>weird...
20:58<@petern>massa won the race
20:58<@petern>but hamilton won the championship title
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to the time when schuhmacher was clear winner 6 races before the end?
20:58<Char>like.... he was on 5 and needed to be on 5 to win the world championship.... then due to rain, he fell back on 6, which was not enough. massa was basically world champion when he crossed the line (as 1st), but hamilton passed some other guy in the final lap
20:59<Char>Eddi|zuHause: how do you mean?
20:59<benjamingoodger>MCCAIN: "We've had a great ride, we've had a great experience and it's full of memories that we will always treasure" ~ he knows he's lost, doesn't he
21:00<thingwath>No? :-)
21:00<@petern>heh, 175/61
21:00<@petern>pinch of salt, of course
21:01<benjamingoodger>BBC calls wisconsin
21:01<benjamingoodger>new york
21:01<benjamingoodger>minnesota
21:01<@petern>not enough results are in
21:01<benjamingoodger>north dakota for mccain
21:02<@petern>bbc's michigan result says 52% mccain, 46% obama, and says obama's won
21:02<@petern>(2% counted!)
21:02<@petern>it's pretty silly to post such results, imho
21:03*SmatZ agrees
21:03<benjamingoodger>BBC calls rhode island for obama
21:04<benjamingoodger>FOX calls ohio for obama
21:04<@petern>"Rhode Island - Obama projected to win. 0% of votes counted"
21:04<benjamingoodger>BBC calls kansas for mccain
21:04<@petern>ah well
21:05<thingwath>Nice.
21:05<+glx>they will need a week to count anyway :)
21:05<benjamingoodger>bbc calls georgia for mccain
21:05<thingwath>a week?
21:06<SmatZ>BBC, FOX ... all of them should have the same source :)
21:06<benjamingoodger>they should all have the same data, yes
21:06<thingwath>hopefuly this elections.
21:07<benjamingoodger>christ
21:07<benjamingoodger>97% of afroamericans in Georgia voted.
21:07<benjamingoodger>that's extraordinary
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>and still they call it for mccain
21:07<benjamingoodger>yeah..
21:07<thingwath>who said they didn't vote for him :-)
21:08<benjamingoodger>it was close, apparently
21:08<benjamingoodger>FOX calls new mexico for obama
21:08<thingwath>they are really guessing from one or two % of votes?
21:08<benjamingoodger>yeah
21:09<thingwath>ah.
21:09<benjamingoodger>*shrug*
21:09<benjamingoodger>they're usually right
21:09<thingwath>I want to live in America, I think.
21:09<benjamingoodger>I suppose someone has to
21:10<thingwath>not necessarily
21:10<benjamingoodger>heh
21:10<benjamingoodger>the BBC is basically bashing mccain openly now
21:10<thingwath>he needs BBC for that?
21:10<benjamingoodger>no
21:11<benjamingoodger>but the beeb is usually remarkably august
21:13<thingwath>finished last beer
21:13<Char>they called wyoming
21:13<thingwath>aw :/
21:13<Char>and the vote is not yet over there
21:13<Char>still nearly 2 hours to go
21:14<benjamingoodger>bbc calls pennsylvania for obama
21:14<benjamingoodger>bbc calls michigan for obama
21:14<thingwath>the best way to predict result of the elections is to invent it :-)
21:14<benjamingoodger>yeah, that works
21:15<Char>calling michigan for obama is stupid
21:15<Char>it currently is obama 45 / mccain 53 there
21:15<benjamingoodger>mmm
21:15<benjamingoodger>that's the current vote
21:15<Eddi|zuHause>i long for the times when elections had a sure outcome of 98% here :p
21:15<benjamingoodger>the call is based on the predicted final vote :P
21:16<Char>Eddi|zuHause: you really do?
21:16<mikegrb>yeah but they look at historical plus polls plus all sorts of crazy
21:16<mikegrb>crap
21:16<Eddi|zuHause>of course not :p
21:16<Char>;)
21:16<Char>well, you never know....
21:16<mikegrb>ja
21:17<benjamingoodger>FOX calls Ohio for Obama
21:17<benjamingoodger>5% reported
21:17<benjamingoodger>....he's won
21:17<benjamingoodger>I'm going to bed
21:17<benjamingoodger>good night :)
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21:22<Char>if ohio is for obama
21:22<Char>then thats it?
21:22<Eddi|zuHause>he basically has to get one swing state
21:22<benjamingoodger>Char: yes.
21:22<benjamingoodger>no republican has ever won without ohio
21:23<Eddi|zuHause>mccain would have to get all of them
21:24<SmatZ>kill me!
21:24<SmatZ>I spent like 5 hours doing somethin
21:24<SmatZ>caused by stupid copy&paste error
21:24<SmatZ>stupid me
21:24<thingwath>happens
21:24<welshdragon>obama 175 mccain 72 from france24
21:24<SmatZ>yeah :(
21:27<benjamingoodger>195/76 on the BBC
21:27<Char>yeah
21:27<Char>if counting ohio for obama
21:27<benjamingoodger>they have apparently done so
21:27<benjamingoodger>oh, and new york
21:28<benjamingoodger>and pennsylvania
21:30<benjamingoodger>BBC: "you'd have to believe in the tooth fairy to think McCain is going to win California, and I've never met the tooth fairy."
21:31<welshdragon>ohio called by france24
21:31<thingwath>crazy
21:31<Char>?
21:31<Char>why?
21:32<thingwath>how many votes counted? :)
21:32<benjamingoodger>BBC calls w.virginia for mccain
21:32<benjamingoodger>hmm, I still seem to be here
21:32<benjamingoodger>luisiana for mccain
21:32<benjamingoodger>195/90
21:34<SmatZ>:)
21:37<benjamingoodger>BBC calls new mexico for obama
21:37<benjamingoodger>200/90
21:38-!-daspork [~daspork@71-87-194-249.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:38<Char>cool
21:38<Char>the german news site i use has NM at obama 11 / mccain 89
21:39<Char>NM is pretty much in the middle of the republican mainland, no?
21:39<welshdragon>http://usa2008.france24.com/en/ < quite a few places not called yet
21:40<benjamingoodger>BBC calls texas for mccain
21:40<benjamingoodger>200/124
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>new mexico was a big strategy for obama to get the hispanic vote there
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>and apparently that worked
21:41<benjamingoodger>bbc calls wyoming for mccain
21:41<benjamingoodger>arkansas for mccain
21:41<Eddi|zuHause>texas for mccain
21:41<Eddi|zuHause>200:119
21:43<benjamingoodger>10 state polls close soon
21:43<benjamingoodger>I will stay up for them...
21:43<benjamingoodger>no call for florida yet
21:43<@Belugas>bah
21:44<@Belugas>go to sleep.. the results will be there tomorrow...
21:44<benjamingoodger>I will lie in bed, thinking about it...
21:44<Char>;)
21:44<thingwath>I'm hungry :-)
21:44<Char>i guess its over
21:44<benjamingoodger>might as well stay up all night
21:44<Char>eat something
21:44<thingwath>I can't sleep.
21:44<thingwath>No food :-)
21:45<Char>you know
21:45<Char>theres places
21:45<Char>that have so much food
21:45<Char>they sell it
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21:45<Char>can someone change the topic
21:45<Char>to represent obamas historic win?
21:46<thingwath>Oh, please, don't.
21:46<Char>victory
21:46<Char>:P
21:46<benjamingoodger>heh
21:46<benjamingoodger>0.63 = proportion of obama voters :)
21:46<thingwath>Food... too far. Everything closed.
21:47<benjamingoodger>heh
21:49<thingwath>And the first morning train just passed by.
21:49<benjamingoodger>thingwath: what time is it there?
21:50<thingwath>3:49, CET
21:50<benjamingoodger>ah
21:50<benjamingoodger>that's very early...
21:50<thingwath>or late :-)
21:50<benjamingoodger>british trains don't start until 5:40 GMT
21:51<thingwath>everything starts early here
21:51<benjamingoodger>iowa, montana, nevada, utah in ten minutes
21:51<thingwath>by 5.40, it's almost morning traffic spike :-)
21:51<benjamingoodger>heh
21:52<thingwath>oh, ok, not so bad :-)
21:52<benjamingoodger>according to whois you are in sweden?
21:52<thingwath>No.
21:52<benjamingoodger>czech republic?
21:52<thingwath>That is server I'm connected to.
21:52<thingwath>Yep.
21:52<benjamingoodger>ah
21:52<benjamingoodger>I didn't know czech was in CET
21:52<Eddi|zuHause><thingwath> by 5.40, it's almost morning traffic spike :-) <- that
21:53<thingwath>where else it should be? :-)
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>'s typically an indication that people commute very far
21:53<benjamingoodger>well
21:53<thingwath>they start to work by 7:00, or even earlier
21:53<benjamingoodger>possibly eastern europe time?
21:54<thingwath>ukraine is in EET
21:54<benjamingoodger>or something like that...
21:54<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, but if the traffic peak is >1h before starting to work, means people travel >1h to work
21:54<benjamingoodger>ah
21:54<benjamingoodger>I do apologise
21:54<thingwath>:-)
21:54<benjamingoodger>I forgot this map is from 1969 :)
21:54<benjamingoodger>ukraine is still in the USSR
21:54<thingwath>:-)
21:54<benjamingoodger>this places czech in the middle
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: the 15° CET line passes exactly through czechia
21:55<benjamingoodger>right
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>that's roughly the border between germany and poland
21:55<thingwath>Eddi|zuHause: maybe, I travel ~40 minutes to school, and it's not so far, like 6 kilometers or so
21:56<benjamingoodger>good grief!
21:56<Eddi|zuHause>6km in 40 minutes? you can walk that :p
21:56<thingwath>Yes. I can :-)
21:56<benjamingoodger>I drive 15 km in that time
21:57<thingwath>depends on where
21:57<Eddi|zuHause>i have roughly 40km to work, that's 35 minutes by car, or 110 minutes by public transport
21:57<Char>Eddi|zuHause: buy a bike
21:57<Char>its faster and easier
21:57<thingwath>well, I spend 25 minutes in tram
21:57<benjamingoodger>christ
21:57<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: where are you?
21:57<Char>and it keeps your muscles awake
21:58<Char>benjamingoodger: according to his nickname, he is at home.
21:58<benjamingoodger>:)
21:58<thingwath>:-)
21:58<benjamingoodger>BBC calls Mississippi for mccain
21:58<Eddi|zuHause>being a student, public transport is way cheaper, though
21:58<benjamingoodger>200/130
21:58<Char>well
21:58<Char>for me
21:58<Char>bike is cheaper
21:58<thingwath>I just prefer the tram :-)
21:58<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: being a student, I fear for my life if I take public transport to college
21:58<Char>public transport would be like 300 EUR / year
21:59<benjamingoodger>hmm
21:59<benjamingoodger>I like trams
21:59<thingwath>bike is dangerous, car expensive and I don't have driving licence
21:59<benjamingoodger>pity we've none here
21:59<Char>bike rules
21:59<Eddi|zuHause>i pay 100€ for 6 months of public transport
21:59<Char>hmm
21:59<thingwath>I pay ~25 EUR for 3 months
21:59<Char>thats expensive
21:59<Char>my bike is... well not exactly for free
21:59<Char>but even if i pay the same
22:00<Char>bike is faster
22:00<thingwath>and I think it's cheap :-)
22:00<Char>and healthier
22:00<Char>unless you are overrun by a car
22:00<thingwath>:-)
22:00<Char>but its faster
22:00<Char>and much more flexible
22:00<benjamingoodger>Char: if the car is driven by me, frankly, that is likely
22:00<benjamingoodger>I hate cyclists
22:00<Char>well
22:00<benjamingoodger>it's not their fault
22:00<Eddi|zuHause>Char: well, bike may be fast in the city, but i live in a rural area, and work is not in the next city
22:00<Char>most of the cyclists cycle like crazy
22:00<benjamingoodger>but our roads are so terrible we can barely fit cars on
22:00<benjamingoodger>and they're so hilly...
22:00<benjamingoodger>the cyclists always hold people up
22:00<Char>then again, most of the automobilists drive like crazy as well
22:01<thingwath>Who doesn't :-)
22:01<Sacro>...hills?
22:01<benjamingoodger>BBC calls iowa for obama
22:01<Sacro>our city has none
22:01<Sacro>utah for mccain
22:01<thingwath>I walk like crazy :-)
22:01<benjamingoodger>Sacro: I don't live in a city, I live in a town of 2,800 and drive to a town of 28,000 --- this being the largest town in the county
22:02<thingwath>I would hate to drive every day.
22:02<Sacro>which town?
22:02<Sacro>Hull is flat :D
22:02<Char>hmmm
22:02<Sacro>highest you can get is about 6ft above ea
22:02<Sacro>*sea
22:02<Char>i guess the mccain people can start to switch the lights off
22:02<benjamingoodger>st austell is the largest town in cornwall...
22:02<benjamingoodger>it's also a sickening shithole
22:03<benjamingoodger>thingwath: driving isn't so bad, except fuel is expensive
22:03<thingwath>I really don't like it. I don't like cars either :-)
22:04<benjamingoodger>207/135
22:04<thingwath>And I have no idea where to park.
22:04<benjamingoodger>heh
22:05<benjamingoodger>the college parking is terrible
22:05<Char>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1TT7gt5F0w&eurl=http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,588441,00.html
22:05<benjamingoodger>they gravelled over a cricket pitch to make a new car park and it's still not enough
22:05<Char>sorry
22:05<Char>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1TT7gt5F0w
22:05<benjamingoodger>I park down the road
22:05<thingwath>we have college parking only for employees
22:05<thingwath>which I am not
22:05<thingwath>and every other place is full, all the time
22:06<thingwath>but I really doubt the car would be faster here
22:06<thingwath>and I couldn't drink when I want to :-)
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22:07<benjamingoodger>heh
22:07<benjamingoodger>I've no choice
22:07<benjamingoodger>the college run public buses, but they don't match my timetable
22:07<benjamingoodger>and there are no other buses and the trains don't match my timetable either
22:07<thingwath>timetable :-)
22:07<thingwath>I have nothing like that :-D
22:07<benjamingoodger>heh
22:07<benjamingoodger>I'm still only 18
22:07<thingwath>well, I do, but... :-)
22:08<thingwath>And, of course, I like trams :-)
22:09<benjamingoodger>heh
22:09<benjamingoodger>yeah, trams are nice
22:09<benjamingoodger>do you know why they're not available in my copy of openttd, btw?
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>you need to add a grf
22:09<benjamingoodger>oh
22:09<benjamingoodger>I thought it came with the trams grf
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you still have to enable it
22:10<thingwath>trams grf included?
22:10<benjamingoodger>I enabled all the grfs I found in the newgrf GUI
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>the generic tram grf is distributed with release builds
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>not with nightlies
22:12-!-Sacro_ [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
22:12<thingwath>ah, I have only git clone repository
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>nightlies are stripped from such extras like grfs and scenarios
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>you can get those elsewhere
22:12<benjamingoodger>I'm running on debian
22:12<benjamingoodger>but I will have a look in that case
22:12<benjamingoodger>thank you
22:14<Char>hmmm
22:14<Char>is there any good scenarios?
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22:21<@Belugas>that question is really a matter of choice
22:21<@Belugas>the scenarios i would like may not be tose you wold
22:21<@Belugas>those
22:21<Char>hmmm
22:21<Char>thats true
22:24<benjamingoodger>right, I'm going to bed
22:24<benjamingoodger>again
22:25<benjamingoodger>good night
22:27<Char>VA, NC, FL are unsure
22:28<Char>but i guess obama doesnt even need them
22:28<Char>florida is 67% counted
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22:47<Eddi|zuHause>virginia now for obama
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23:01<Aali>soo, obama is unofficially president of the united states
23:01-!-elmex_ is now known as elmex
23:02<benjamingoodger>Aali: actually, he's president-elect
23:02<benjamingoodger>YEES!
23:02<benjamingoodger>good night, all
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23:06<Eddi|zuHause>florida appears to be called for obama
23:07<Aali>and he doesn't even need florida
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>in german we say "nach der Pflicht kommt die Kür"
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23:17<George>Wolf01: George, is it normal that the coal left decrease with the time also with the parameter set to 15?
23:17<George>In beta 4 - yes, in beta 5 - no
23:20<George>Ammler: What?
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23:31<Eddi|zuHause>333:155
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---Logclosed Wed Nov 05 00:00:04 2008