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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-09

---Logopened Sun Nov 09 00:00:44 2008
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03:16<rubyruy>so i finally figured out why i could only make a profit using mamoth trains running coal using the longest possible engine
03:16<rubyruy>APPARENTLY the US Set has ridiculously high running costs and these are only adjustable by adjusting building cost
03:16<rubyruy>why... is that?
03:23<@Rubidium>because you get the American model with it free of charge; the model where everything is extremely expensive and you have to take enormous debts to buy something useful. Otherwise, ask the authors of the set who are AFAIK not in this channel.
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03:29<rubyruy>i wish it WERE engine cost because as things stands you pay $55K for a locomotive that costs $700K/yr in running costs and basically 2 thirds of the cargoes can't make a profit :/
03:29<rubyruy>having the actual buy price be exorbitant would make much more sense
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03:30<rubyruy>and i can't tone down this particular diificulty without also toning down build costs
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04:54<rubyruy>could somebody enlighten me as to the status of the ttdpatch community?
04:54<rubyruy>ever since openttd was announced i assumed GRF developers would migrate to openttd whole hog, maybe ttdp would keep on a few people for legacy support reasons and not much else
04:55<rubyruy>but it seems there's a pretty hefty amount of fresh development effort (for grf sets) going into ttdpatch
04:55<rubyruy>why is this?
04:57<ln->because ttdpatch was and perhaps still is more advanced, has more features, etc.
04:57<fonso>because of custom bridge heads missing in openttd
04:58*fonso ducks
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05:01<fonso>FS#730 / FS#2320 are still without any official comment.
05:02<fonso>I still think that diagonal levelling is very useful, especially on large maps. I also can't see what is wrong with the implementation I give there.
05:03<fonso>Additionally it offers a new and very nice (IMO) way to iterate over tiles without macros.
05:05<fonso>actually I made two patches implementing that functionality in different ways and I'd even implement a third version if necessary.
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06:07<SpComb> <-- oh my, someone at least used to use myottd
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06:15*davis morning
06:17<fonso>Has anyone ever tried to develop a higher level "frontend" language for nfo, so that you can actually read the code and don't have to fiddle around with cryptic bitmasks all the time?
06:18<fonso>"Frontend" meaning that you compile the code into real nfo afterwards. It should be fairly straigh tforward ...
06:19<frosch123>I guess there are about a dozend tries (not all realeased though)
06:19<fonso>I only see graphical frontends
06:20<fonso>not language frontends
06:20<fonso>and an nfo to html converter
06:20<Aali>a graphical frontend is alot more useful though
06:21<fonso>only if it is really good.
06:21<Aali>since you're not really doing much programming in an nfo
06:21<Aali>its mostly defining properties for your stuff
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06:21<fonso>Yes, but you don't want to be tied into a potentially buggy GUI for doing that
06:21<frosch123>Aali: there are two parts of an nfo. One about aligning sprites and defining bounding boxes. That one could be done by some graphical frontend
06:22<fonso>A compiler for some high level language can be much simpler than a GUI
06:22<frosch123>And one that is more like programming and deals a lot with bit shifting and masking
06:22<frosch123>For the second part a graphical interface is IMO more a step backwards
06:22<fonso>and you can still build a GUI around the frontend language.
06:23<Aali>frosch123: and the programming part for your average grf is not very complicated
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06:23<frosch123>Aali: But it is the part, fonso asked about, didn't he?
06:25<Aali>but a graphical frontend is still pretty good at doing action0s, action2s and action3s
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06:25<frosch123>no, it isn't
06:25<Aali>anything more complicated and you still end up writing the same code, its just in a different format
06:26<frosch123>you think about very simple grfs, which only use some constants
06:26<fonso>No one prevents you from writing one. But instead of producing nfo directly it could output some other language which you can read and then further work on.
06:27<Aali>i haven't seen any grfs that weren't that simple
06:27<Aali>sure, they probably exist
06:27<fonso>Look at the canadian trains set
06:27<fonso>or dbset xl
06:27<Aali>but they're not that many
06:28<frosch123>or any industry grf
06:32<fonso>Building a consistent high level language would also be a good opportunity to find and repair inconsitencies in nfo itself. For example the fact that you can define a callback to decide if industry tiles need a foundation to be drawn but you can't do the same thing for houses.
06:33<frosch123>if you count that as inconsistency, you should hope to never hear about 8 and 15 bit callbacks
06:34<fonso>So I hope ... but I also hope you are going to disappoint me right now.
06:37<frosch123>well, the problem becomes smaller when grf coders do not know about it :)
06:39<fonso>Basically, I think we won't get around the ugliness of nfo for some time. But we can hack it up so that all properties and callbacks are consistent with each other. If we have a nice compiler for the resulting high level language we can integrate it in openTTD and skip the nfo step. For TTDPatch you could still compile it into nfo then.
06:39<fonso>Is that a viable strategy?
06:40<frosch123>for an other example: take a look at the speed properties of the different vehicle types. or even better take a look at the two weight properties of rail vehicles, and then at the two cost properties of bridges
06:41<frosch123>or take a look which properties can be modified by callback 36, and which have their own callback
06:42<frosch123>also callback 36 is called at different times for different properties (e.g. running cost every tick, vehicle length only in depot, ...)
06:42<fonso>nice ... what a mess
06:43<frosch123>or generally, from a grf creator point of view, you might wonder, why most vehicle callbacks apply to all vehicle types, but the house/station/industry callbacks are separate though they do the same
06:44<frosch123>to sum up, nfo depends highly on how ttd works. and the grf coder has to know about those ttd details, as ttdp/ottd cannot support everything that might be codeable with nfo
06:45<fonso>Openttd should be able to support more things than ttdpatch
06:45<fonso>and we can implement a permissive and a restricted compiler
06:45<frosch123>there is no big difference between ottd and ttdp in that point
06:45<fonso>the restricted compiler would check for things that can't be done in ttdp.
06:46<fonso>The house tile foundation thing would be trivial to implement in openttd, but simply isn't specified.
06:46<frosch123>I would really like to see a compiler, that ensures that the vehicle length callback does only change its return value, while inside depot
06:47<fonso>Is it possible to check that statically?
06:47<frosch123>[12:48] <fonso> The house tile foundation thing would be trivial to implement in openttd, but simply isn't specified. <- and why is there a open fs task since a half year?
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06:48<fonso>I just commented on it. With sample code.
06:48<frosch123>[12:49] <fonso> Is it possible to check that statically? <- in the mean time ottd checks it at run time
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06:48<fonso>perhaps the whole thing is not that straight forward.
06:49<Korenn>petern: will you be moving that cargo grf to a new hosting spot, or should I just remove all mention of them from the wiki page?
06:50<frosch123>fonso: your fs patch does hardly a 1/4 what is needed
06:51<fonso>well, if you define that flag you also need to recognise it when parsing. I know.
06:51<frosch123>you also need some slope-check callback on construction and an autoslope callback
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06:51<frosch123>and the autoslope callback in its current form is one of the less usable callbacks at all
06:52<fonso>those would be the same as with industries, wouldn't they?
06:53<frosch123>ok, then restart from somewhat earlier in the discussion: would you add a new callback as it is done for the animation stuff, or would you use the same callback number as for industries as it shall return the same stuff?
06:54<frosch123>and the autoslope callback is a bit more critical for houses
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06:55<frosch123>i.e. currently there is now way to figure out, what would the slope look like after autoslope. so currently all industry grfs, that have custom foundations, just disable autoslope.
06:55<frosch123>but would like every second house inside a town to disallow autoslope?
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06:56<fonso>won't work, of course. Because houses can be next to each other.
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06:56<fonso>but can't industries be placed next to each other, too?
06:56<fonso>bah, I'm confused.
06:57<frosch123>or would you rather like some callbacks which tell what slope the house needs, and ottd/ttdp then draw a matching flat/inclined/whatever foundation?
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06:59<fonso>I see there is a problem. We have to decide on which foundation the given house can be built. Right? So, how is that solved for industries and why can't we reuse that solution?
07:00<frosch123>Industry tiles have a slope-check and an autoslope callback
07:01<George>hey, are you discussing FS 2069? May I take part in? ;)
07:01<@petern>Korenn, yes i will
07:01<frosch123>and as I already said, the autoslope callback can only be used to disallow any autosloping, i.e. not depening on how the player is about to terraform the tile
07:01<fonso>So why can't we have Action0HouseTiles?
07:01<frosch123>yes, George, you are welcome :)
07:02<frosch123>fonso: because there are no house tiles?
07:04<fonso>Is that only because we don't have the respective callback in Action0Houses?
07:05<George>So, as you could see on my screen shot, I came to the idea to have houses, which require sloped land the same way industries do. Unfortunately, 2x2 and 2x1 houses can be placed on a different tile than a northern one (2x1 house have 2 possible locations, while 2x2 houses have 4). The idea was to grant houses just the same behaviour as industry tiles have.
07:06<George>Hope, the idea is understandable, I hope ;) I'd like to know, would it be hard to apply this part of the industry tiles code to houses?
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07:09*frosch123 wrote a small summary in the fs task
07:10<Korenn>petern: oki, thanks :)
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07:12<George>Question about a) can't the code be changed to disallow a house be build on the other place (build on the northern tile only)
07:15<George>b) well, for most buildings the callback 3C may return 0. For some special buildings, who require callback 3C, it may be 1.
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07:16<frosch123>hmm, maybe a) is no longer true
07:16<frosch123>George: I can imagine that some point most buildings on hills build into the hill instead of using an ugly foundations
07:17<frosch123>that would basically disable autoslope in towns for hilly terrain
07:18<George>b) also, why not to implement a new var for callback 3C, that will return new slope byte for all 4 tiles affected. So, when a point is trying to be lowed or raised, it will happen only if all 4 tiles will allow it
07:19<frosch123>so IMO the industry concept is not that useable here. Maybe let the custom slope callback return the slope the house expects. So OTTD/TTDP could draw a matching flat/inclined slope to create the expected slope on any terrain
07:20<George>frosch123: Well, if house set would provide different graphics for sloped tiles, then I suppose it should prevent terraforming. And a player would know it when loading such a set
07:21<frosch123>yup, that would be the classical solution :) i.e. to leave everything up to the grf coder :p
07:21<George>frosch123: Let me disagree with you here. If a house set prevents terraforming - it's a concept of a house set. It is just designed that way. Why is it not acceptable for houses?
07:21<George>frosch123: Yes. Don't you love grf coders? ;)
07:22<George>Imho, very good solution :) :)
07:22<frosch123>err, I did not said disallowing autoslope would be intended by the grf creator, just that is basically the only way to prevent the house from falling up or down or being disconnected from other tiles of the same house
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07:24<frosch123>and just passing the new slope to the autoslope callback would IMO make things for grfs far too complicated
07:25<George>You mean the GRF coder should control then that tiles of a house are still connected the right way? Well, It would not frighten me ;)
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07:26<frosch123>see also, but please do not bump the thread :)
07:31<frosch123>though maybe instead of adding a new property to control that stuff, the autoslope callback could return different values. but that would require grf version 8, as the current autoslope callback is not extensible
07:35<George>frosch123: >* houses/industries if they allow that. (This is controlled by newgrf properties resp. their default values)
07:35<George>How do hoses allow/disallow autoslope?
07:35<frosch123>houses have a "only allowed on flat ground" flag in some action 0 property
07:36<frosch123>that one is also evaluated for houses in ottd, but IIRC not in ttdp
07:36<George>that affects construction only, isn't it?
07:36<frosch123>in ottd also autosloping :)
07:37<frosch123>but only for houses
07:37<frosch123>industry autosloping does not check any of the during-construction-slope-restrictions
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07:41<Antdovu>is it supposed to be the case that you can't double click a WWT_TEXTBTN unless it is in a lowered state?
07:42<Antdovu>for example the clone button in depots is of that type
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08:09<George>frosch123: Call callback 3C which can deny autosloping. Variable 60 represents the landscape that would result from the terraform operation (i.e. the new slope of the calling and neighboured tiles). If the callback fails, threat it like not enabled, i.e. allow autoslope.
08:09<George>Does it work? Cool, why didn't you write it on wiki? Also, would it change all the bits of var 60, or slope info only? For example, lowing land to water level would make it water?
08:10<frosch123>no, it does not work
08:10<frosch123>George: the whole thread is full of suggestions, but none became reality
08:11<George>frosch123: ops, I supposed it is a PATCH, the thing that is coded. sorry
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09:15<George>frosch123: I've read the topic. I could not understand - what is the future of getting more information during callback 3c about sloped land? Do you plan to implement it?
09:15<George>Also, what about hoses? Can they be build not at northern tile or not? And what do you think about implementing all these callbacks (3C, 2F, 30) for houses?
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09:15<rortom>whats the format for the GUI widgets again?
09:15<+glx>what do you mean?
09:16<rortom>x,y, width,height?
09:16<+glx>top, bottom, left, right
09:16<rortom>ah, thank you very much, i always forget it ;)
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09:17<Antdovu1> Any further criticism/suggestions?
09:18<+glx>rortom: indeed it's left, right, top, bottom :)
09:18<rortom>nice idea :)
09:18<rortom>glx: lol, thanks ;)
09:20<frosch123>George: Implementing is on my TODO list. For OTTD all suggestions (which I have heard of) are possible. Just that noone had good arguments for or against the different specs.
09:21<George>frosch123: Do you mean about hoses or industries?
09:22<frosch123>However usually these discussion end up in nothing. See engine pool discussion wrt. attaching wagons from other sets, the autoslope discussion, dalestan's discussion about removing sprite numbers in nfo version 8, the noai discussion about reworking the AI callback, ...
09:23<frosch123>[15:23] <George> frosch123: Do you mean about hoses or industries? <- both, in fact fonso is right that implementing is easy, after the specs are finished
09:24<George>frosch123: Confused. Why not to use industry spec for houses? (2F, 30, 3C)
09:26<frosch123>only when the autoslope situation for callback 0x3C is resolved. I dislike duplicating problems.
09:26<George>Oh, I see. Well, is there a sum post for all the problems left?
09:27<rortom>rewriting gui stuff is unnice :\
09:28<frosch123>I am working on one, but that might take some time...
09:29<George>Let me know when it is written, please.
09:30<rortom>isnt there a new c++ based GUI?
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09:31<Antdovu1>there is a new GUI since 0.6
09:32<Antdovu1>as in, after 0.6
09:33<rortom>is there anything in 0.6 written in it?
09:33<dih>Antdovu1, as a default action it sucks :-P
09:33<Alberth>rortom: we switched to derived Window classes for each window
09:33<dih>shift and ctrl are already taken
09:33<Antdovu1>if you are talking about the clone patch: the default action is now the same as in trunk
09:34<dih>you could amke an 'advanced settings' option where people can enable that dialog as a default, but i doubt it's _that_ useful
09:34<Antdovu1>new behaviour only with double click
09:34<dih>nobody clones a vehicle 20 times in one go
09:34<Antdovu1>nobody needs more than 560KB of memory ;)
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09:34<dih>Antdovu1, that is a totaly unrelated comment
09:35<Antdovu1>translation: I actually did need it, more than in one game
09:35<dih>as i did not say nobody uses more than 20 vehivles
09:35<dih>i said they dont clone that many in one batch
09:35<dih>YOU did ;-)
09:35<Antdovu1>there are other people with HUGE networks
09:35<dih>openttdcoop for example
09:35<dih>you still clone when it's needed
09:36<dih>you dont just send 50 trains to the station
09:36<Antdovu1>what about when converting from one railway type to another?
09:36<dih>just to avoid a huge queue and a loss of money for the first 2 years
09:37<Antdovu1>routes on 2048^2 maps can give you quite a bit of room for such actions :)
09:37<dih>no - just because it's possible does not mean it's done ;-)
09:38<dih>just because a 2048^2 map allows you to level 3/4 of it and still have a 1024^2 map does not mean it's done
09:38<rortom>Alberth: is there any example in the code whee i can see how to use the new windowing system?
09:38<Alberth>rortom: any *_gui.cpp file will do probably
09:38<dih>Antdovu1, for the most cases it's not worth overriding the default handling of cloning
09:39<Antdovu1>as I said, I already changed the default action
09:39<dih>i know you said that
09:39<rortom>Alberth: but the system still defines the widgets using that array?
09:39<dih>as i said - you'd have more interested people if you did not :-P
09:39<Alberth>rortom: yes
09:40<Antdovu1>which is why I made it work the way people suggested ;)
09:40<rortom>ok, thanks :)
09:41<dih>still - i doubt it will have any amount of use
09:42<Mark>that clone patch is the best suggestion i've seen in a long time
09:42<Alberth>rortom: what are you making?
09:42<rortom>Alberth: you will see later ;)
09:42<dih>Mark, sinse when do you clone that many vehicles that you could not click faster?
09:42<Mark>clicking makes your fingers hurt
09:42<Mark>and, you do
09:43<Mark>in coop games it often happens you clone 50 or more trains in a time
09:43<Mark>hundreds even, when using selfregulating networks
09:43<Mark>i know i'd use that feature a lot
09:43<dih>do :-P
09:43<dih>i think it's silly
09:45<Antdovu1>good to see that someone thinks it is useful :P
09:45<dih>Antdovu1, you even have people that would like to see war as a desaster in OpenTTD :-P
09:46<Mark>another situation where it's useful: when converting a large network to a new track type
09:46<dih>since when does openttdcoop do that? :-P
09:47<Mark>since when don't we?
09:47<Mark>see prozone game 2
09:47<dih>i have only seen you guys stick with one single track type for the entire game
09:47<dih>pz has lived for 2 games during 3 months
09:47<dih>that is a huge flopp imo
09:47<Mark>that's quite unrelated to my point
09:48<dih>mz / pz games are totally different from ps games
09:48<dih>of course in those games you may have had upgrades
09:48<dih>and of course they occure in other network games
09:49<dih>but that is a single situation
09:49<dih>a single semi usefu. one
09:49<Mark>[15:42] <Mark> clicking makes your fingers hurt -> that was actually a serious point
09:49<Mark>have you ever cloned 1000 trains?
09:50<dih>in all honesty i doubt you have
09:50<SpComb>have I ever wanted to clone 1000 trains?
09:50<dih>even on coop games where you do have that number of trains
09:50<Antdovu1>1000 on usually different routes I presume
09:50<dih>Antdovu1, they often share a mainline
09:51<Mark>yeah, on different routes
09:51<Mark>still, one needs to click 1000 times
09:51<Antdovu1>I converted ~800 from electric to maglev in my last big game
09:51<dih>Mark, name one game where you have actually YOURSELF had to clone even close to that number of trains
09:51<dih>i really doubt you ever did that
09:52<Mark>hold on
09:52<Mark>i do remember a situation, it was actually on your server
09:52<dih>Mark, you never had 1000 trains on my servers
09:52<Mark>fine then, 500
09:53<Mark>still, 500 clicks is a lot
09:53<dih>so we just dubbled a number to make a point?
09:53<Antdovu1>see for my post
09:53<Mark>and takes a lot more time than typing "500"
09:53<Antdovu1>a single player game with 1800 trains in the end
09:53<dih>and where did you have 500 vehicles serving one station so you could really use the tool and type 500 in that dialog window?
09:54<Mark>i did - in the game i just mentioned
09:54<Mark>i had a ring around the map, with trains visiting 8 cities
09:54<dih>you had 500 trains serving the same route?
09:54<dih>and you upgraded that ring
09:54<Mark>yeah - twice
09:54<dih>that sounds like a game with Prince Daniel :-P
09:54<Antdovu1>just accept the fact that people play openttd in different ways :)
09:54<dih>or shortley after :-P
09:55<Mark>could have been
09:55<dih>Antdovu1, i do very well know people play in different ways
09:55<Mark>it's a while ago indeed
09:55<dih>Antdovu1, no need to point that out to me ;-)
09:55<dih>it's a style PD used to play
09:56<dih>Antdovu1, i also know that you dont usually have 500 trains serving the same route
09:56<dih>it's a very rare situation
09:56<Antdovu1>it doesn't matter whether it is 1 or 10 routes
09:56<dih>if you have 50 trains serving the same route you are using steamers on a large map :-P
09:56<Mark>so, why shouldn't it be implented?
09:56<dih>Antdovu1, it does matter
09:56<Mark>because it won't be used a lot?
09:56<dih>if you only have 5 - 20 trains serving the same route i click
09:56<dih>and you are faster clicking
09:57<Mark>i'm sure there are plenty of people who'd use it, and i doubt the patch would be insanely big or complex
09:57<dih>Mark, as someone who does not even look at code, that is a lovely statement to make :-D
09:58<dih>but it should not be big :-P
09:58<Mark>that's why i said "i doubt"
09:58<Antdovu1>in its current form it isn't too large and it creates less network traffic than cloning all one by one
09:58<Mark>and not "i'm sure"
09:59<dih>Antdovu1, you added a special network packet?
09:59<dih>something the server can block :-D
09:59<dih>so it's not just a client side patch
09:59<Antdovu1>just changed the clone command slightly
09:59<dih>i think people would love you more for making it client side only
09:59<Antdovu1>no, they wouldn't -- trust me
10:00<Antdovu1>I tried it that way before
10:00<dih>they would - c'ause then they could use it on network games
10:00<dih>this way you need a server to support it
10:00<Antdovu1>it had to use an ugly hack to be even usable
10:00<dih>+ then all clients need to support it also
10:00<Antdovu1>it ran into the same problem as copy-paste in network games
10:01<dih>Antdovu1, a ugly hack? even less reason to talk about it
10:01<dih>anyway - i am off
10:01<Antdovu1>basically you could overwhelm the server with the flood of commands
10:01<dih>you always can
10:01<dih>if you have a patched client
10:01<Antdovu1>yeah, but the current way doesn't do that
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10:05<rortom>has someone time and will to help me find a bug in my code? :\
10:06<rortom>its a little one only
10:06<@petern>when will ror handle vehicle physics properly ;)
10:07-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
10:07<rortom>haha :p
10:07<rortom>the top row bar resizes sometimes correctly, and sometimes not?!
10:07<@Rubidium>is that an euphemism for: please implement my idea?
10:07<davis>that looks .. fun
10:08<rortom>its why do i have that gui bug?!
10:08<rortom>i will implement my stuff on my own ...
10:08<davis>what is that code for?
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10:09-!-Sacro_ [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:10<rortom>it should be a tab thing
10:11-!-davis- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:12<+glx>rortom: in station_gui.h you have an align problem
10:12<rortom>it works with resizing, but not all the time
10:14<rortom>like that:
10:14<@Rubidium>glx: it's *everywhere* where he touched code
10:14<+glx>indeed ;)
10:15<@Rubidium>and to quote an old teacher of mine: "your documentation/comments are missing, so the compiler doesn't understand what you want it to do"
10:15<rortom>i think putting the information into tabs would look better then now?
10:15<rortom>whahahaa :p
10:15<+glx>rortom: your enum has duplicates
10:15<rortom>oh? :|
10:16<+glx>no wonder it doesn't work
10:16<@Rubidium>glx: now you spoiled the fun... I was waiting for him telling what his bug was
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10:17<rortom>i know that it was my bug
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10:18<rortom>also, the enum list has duplicates in its original form :\
10:19<rortom>i just increased the numbers
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10:24<Muxy>hello here
10:26<+glx>hmm ok the enum looks right indeed
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10:46<rortom>just the small glitch with horizontal rizing is still there
10:48<rortom>mh, the glitch happens if i resize vertically :\
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10:58<bottiger>Okey, I have a couple of questions. First, what determins how much money you earn? my trucks earn about 2000 each, while my opponent earns about 6000 ?
11:00<frosch123>the cargo type, the amount of cargo transported, the distance, the speed and the vehicle running costs
11:01<bottiger>"the distance" - I suspected that. Is it good to have long (rail)roads?
11:02<frosch123>at least it is easier with them
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11:03<insulfrog>hi all :)
11:04<bottiger>so that may be why I suck so hard :P
11:04<rortom>lol ;)
11:05<benjamingoodger>yeah, anything under ten squares between stations is likely to be inefficient
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>which is a problem for tram networks without cargodest...
11:06<benjamingoodger>in towns, also, it is nearly impossible to get a good spot, so I install a tram station in the centre and run trams to the outside station
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11:07<Antdovu>anyone want to tell me which deadly sins my fast clone patch commits?
11:07<bottiger>also, does i matter how close you place your station on the resource?
11:07<bottiger>or is it just in or out?
11:07<benjamingoodger>bottiger: I think as long as it's within the station's catchment area you're OK
11:08<bottiger>benjamingoodger: ok
11:09<bottiger>and at last - what's the point of "platform length" ? just larger coverage area?
11:09<benjamingoodger>and longer trains..?
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>trains that are longer than the platform take much longer to load
11:09<insulfrog>the platform lengh is dependant on your train length
11:09<bottiger>thanks you
11:10<benjamingoodger>as well as blocking the interchanges outside the station
11:11<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: does cargodest solve the problem of having massive imbalances in passenger numbers between cities and towns?
11:12<insulfrog>I have a few questions to ask myself, has anyone heard of the OTTD spinoff?
11:12<Aylomen>yes, me
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>not directly, but there are measures in place that people prefer "bigger stations", whatever measure there is to determine that
11:12<benjamingoodger>for instance, a train starting at a city may leave full and leave some behind, and dump everyone onto the next stop, and then run empty for the next few stops until returning to the city
11:13<benjamingoodger>OTTD spinoff?
11:13-!-tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>"the" OTTD spinoff?
11:13<Aylomen>are there more spinoffs?
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11:13-!-Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
11:13<ln->spinoff as in tv series where a new series is made based on one or two characters of the original?
11:13<insulfrog>there is a thread about it on the OTTD forums
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>you're not talking about "Transpoerter 0.1", are you?
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11:15<insulfrog>its the ' Open TTD Challenge Spinoff 2 Beta'
11:16<frosch123>"2 beta". is that the ancient one, or the newly started?
11:16<rortom>uhm is there a string where i can just display the cargo's name and not the amount?
11:16<frosch123>grep for {CARGO}
11:16<rortom>atm im using STR_0009
11:16<frosch123>in english.txt
11:16<insulfrog>thats the one :)
11:16<rortom>done that, saw that
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11:17<benjamingoodger>hmm, looks fun
11:17<insulfrog>I am trying to run it, as I would like to have a go at it myself
11:18<insulfrog>however, its looking for various grf files
11:18<insulfrog>one of them is the 'autorail.grf'
11:19<Aylomen>it's based on a very old revision
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>rortom: the build vehicle window must somehow create the list of refittable cargo types
11:19<Aperculum>so, euro isn't allowed unit until 1999 in game?
11:20<benjamingoodger>sounds sensible
11:20<Aylomen>I think, it is 2002
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>euro was introduced in 2002 in most countries
11:20<Aperculum>but euro became official in 1999}
11:20<rortom>Eddi|zuHause: indeed, thanks for the tip :)
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>it's the Y2K bug backwards
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>you can't set values below 2000
11:21<benjamingoodger>gordon brown says: "my criteria for joining the eurozone is that the pound must be worth less than the euro" ~~~ on this basis, the UK will be printing its first euro banknotes tomorrow afternoon
11:21<insulfrog>hmm... sounds like I need to do some extra digging around
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11:22<rortom>uhm, as far as i see we have SHORTCARGO and CARGO
11:22<rortom>which both contains an amount?
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>how about you feed it a generic {STRING} parameter?
11:24<rortom>good idea :)
11:25<rortom>far easier then creating a new type ;)
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11:27<frosch123>DrawStringCentered(x + 6 + cg_ofst, y + cg_ofst, cs->abbrev, TC_BLACK); <- that one is used in the station list
11:28<frosch123>CargoSpec contains the stringid for both the full name and the abbreviation
11:28<frosch123>so, yes, you can use the stringid directly
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11:35<rortom>ah, thanks :)
11:40<rortom>that worked thanks :)
11:40<rortom>what you think of my idea
11:40<rortom>i think its pretty good space usage
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11:41<rortom>i should mark the current selected button
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11:49<ln->ciao a |AWAY
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11:53<davis->i like that idea .
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12:01<rortom>thanks ;)
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>really, the produced cargo should also appear in the station window... it's a real oversight to only do that for the build station window
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12:08<rortom>mh, good point
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12:09<rortom>how to create toggle buttons btw?
12:09<rortom>manually -> this->LowerWidget(SVW_WAITINGBTN); ?
12:10<rortom>SetWidgetLoweredState ?
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12:16<rortom>working :)
12:18<frosch123>when you are doing stats, you could also implement station variable 69 :p
12:18<rortom>oh, thanks for the hint :)
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12:19<rortom>maybe put accepts/produces under one tab?
12:19<rortom>but how to call the tab then?
12:20<rortom>ok, good idea :)
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12:20<frosch123>btw. the stats looks crowded, maybe put it in a tooltip when clicking on the accepted/provided cargos
12:22<rortom>i wanted to provide lots of stats
12:22<rortom>thatfor i want to use the scroll area
12:22<rortom>goods / year
12:22<frosch123>maybe add "generate pdf report" button?
12:23<rortom>if you have a big station
12:23<rortom>how do you know how much stuff is transferred there per month?
12:24<frosch123>isn't goods per month enough?
12:24<frosch123>industries also do not have more info
12:26<frosch123>I also do not understand the ratings window
12:26<frosch123>the cargo rating should go into the "provided cargo" tab
12:27<rortom>so we have just a cargo tab
12:27<rortom>with accepted cargo
12:27<rortom>and its rating
12:27<rortom>and provided cargo
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12:29<frosch123>well, maybe two tabs for "outgoing" cargo (with ratings and waiting cargo) and "ingoing" cargo (only the cargo)
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12:29<frosch123>er, "incoming"
12:29<rortom>yes, i will see what looks good
12:30<frosch123>well, the disadvantage of having so many tabs is that you have to switch all the time
12:31<frosch123>hmm, but true, waiting cargo is not necessarily outgoing, it can also be transferred, especially when using cargodest
12:33<frosch123>maybe also show cargos, which would be provided, when a vehicle would arrive. maybe "no rating yet"
12:33<rortom>mh, where can i find the code to determine the provided cargo
12:33<rortom>(produced one)
12:34<frosch123>the build gui shows that
12:34<frosch123>so look how it is done there
12:35<frosch123>however, the "ratings" is basically the "provided", except of the "no rating yet" :p
12:35<rortom>just found :)
12:35<rortom>if (cargo[i] >= (supplies ? 1U : 8U)) {
12:36<rortom>obfuscated code FTW :|
12:37-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
12:37<@Rubidium>that's not obfuscated
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12:40<Eddi|zuHause>i see at least two magic numbers
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12:40<Eddi|zuHause>unless you mean that in the way of "that's not a knife... THAT is a knife!" :p
12:42<frosch123>the 1 has the unit "number of tiles providing the cargo", the 8 has the unit "1/8 of tile acceptance"
12:43-!-davis is now known as davis--
12:43<frosch123>so it just the usual mixing of different units in one formula, which causes space probes to miss their target
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12:51<rortom>thats going to be more complicated?
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12:51<rortom>it just provides DrawStationCoverageAreaText
12:51<rortom>but no function to detect the provided cargo for a whole station
12:51<frosch123>where do the ratings come from?
12:53<rortom>const GoodsEntry *ge = &st->goods[i];
12:53<rortom>SetDParam(2, ge->rating * 101 >> 8);
12:54<rortom>the struct is not fed with the actual production data i guess
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12:58<frosch123>take a look at UpdateStationWaiting
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13:00<frosch123>i.e. you could just add another bit PROVIDED in addition to PICKUP and ACCEPTANCE
13:01<frosch123>PROVIDED would need setting in " if (_settings_game.order.selectgoods && st->goods[type].last_speed == 0) continue; // Selectively servicing stations, and not this one"
13:01<frosch123>though that line would need to be moved a little downwards
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13:04<rortom>let me see if i understand that ;)
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13:07<rortom>seems thats a little too complex for me
13:07<rortom>could you provide me with some little patch? :)
13:08<frosch123>no, I have to deal with plane crashes
13:08<rortom>ok ;)
13:08<rortom>thanks for the hints so far
13:09<Chrill>poke Brianetta or Sacro
13:10<Chrill>Server's down and the dear sarah_pilot is not in #autopilot! :O
13:13<Brianetta>I saved it, then decided I'd rather go and have my tea and read a book than immediately restart the game
13:14<Brianetta>This way, I get longer before somebody pages me
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13:17<rortom> :)
13:17<rortom>working now
13:17<rortom>just supplied goods missing
13:17<rortom>i fixed the glitch as well :)
13:18<rortom>(its far from done)
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13:49<Eddi|zuHause>in the accepting part, there is no empty line after "Nothing"
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>and the text colours should be the same in both sections
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14:07<Aperculum>so, why do I need original ttd .grf files, can't you just create free ones to remove that requirement?
14:07<Ammler>there are
14:09<ln->Aperculum: how many hours of work would you estimate it would take to "just" create new graphics?
14:10<rortom>Eddi|zuHause: agreed, but i think thats details ;)
14:11<Aperculum>ln-, is it bigger work than it was to create rest of openttd?
14:12<Aperculum>it's graphics, not code
14:12<planetmaker>have you tried either, Aperculum ?
14:13<ln->Aperculum: why don't you create some graphics and we'll see how much have you finished by tomorrow? you have 24 hours.
14:14<planetmaker>:) good proposal.
14:14<ln->i don't even expect you to have a complete graphics set, but something.
14:15<Ammler>well, if you know, how zeph
14:15<Ammler>works, it might be possible in 24 hours :-P
14:16<ln->Aperculum: besides, a lot of the of the openttd code was not created (by this project anyway), but rather it was directly taken from TTD by disassembling the exe.
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14:17<Antdovu>I could easily create new and very artsy graphics for openttd in 24h
14:17<planetmaker>yeah. It'd look lovely, I assume?
14:17<Antdovu>I would call the style "rand()"
14:17<Antdovu>yes, it would :P
14:20<rortom>any improvement ideas?
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14:25<frosch123>rortom: I doubt that those stations supply all cargos
14:26<rortom>thats the problem
14:26<rortom>i need to add a new feature for that :\
14:26<rortom>not fully done
14:26<rortom>but it shows the direction :)
14:31<frosch123>DaleStan, petern: is the "cc" field of vehicle variable 42 suitable for anything, when the cargo is not translated?
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14:42<DaleStan>frosch123: cc field of var 42 is never translated.
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14:43<frosch123>yes, but what shall a vehicle grf do with it? it could be any cargo
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15:29<tarzicius>Üdv nektek.
15:30<ln->kadv zikzak.
15:30<tarzicius>Valaki el tudná mondani, hogyan kell az Transport Tyccon Deluxe (OPEN TTDX)-et telepíteni openSUSE LINUX 10.3-ban?
15:31<tarzicius>nagyon fontos lenne.
15:31<ln->ban? banna dig så hårt.
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15:32<tarzicius>Nem értem.
15:32<ln->Sitähän minäkin.
15:33<dih>english please ln- :-D
15:33<tarzicius>I want to play wit TTDX in openSUSE LINUX 10.3.
15:33<tarzicius>How can I play?
15:34<tarzicius>How can I install it?
15:34<ln->You need Wine. Then you can possibly install it from the CD.
15:34<tarzicius>Already I have installed wine.
15:35<tarzicius>What I have to do?
15:35<ln->Then you need to buy TTDX from e.g. Amazon.
15:36<tarzicius>So. have You got it?
15:36-!-Char [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:36<tarzicius>have You got it?
15:36-!-Char [] has joined #openttd
15:36<ln->I bought one through, but I haven't opened the package.
15:37<tarzicius>Shall You send me TTDX?
15:37<davis-->arnt there links in the tt-forums?
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15:41<rortom>mh, in the station logic
15:41<rortom>UpdateStationWaiting is used for generated good
15:41<rortom>by factories?
15:41<rortom>whats used to update the good that arrive via train or so?
15:42<frosch123>those are not "supplied" at least :)
15:44<rortom>so we have logically three categories?
15:44<rortom>incoming (target station)
15:44<rortom>outgoing (source)
15:44<rortom>and transferring?
15:44<davis-->logical yes .. i think
15:45<frosch123>you have "outgoing with rating", "incoming as acceptance" and "waiting"
15:46<frosch123>rortom: take a look at the images at the bottom:
15:46<frosch123>you do not want to distinguish between produced waiting and transferred waiting cargo
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15:47<ln->frosch123: you succeeded \o/
15:47<frosch123>yeah, but for Wolf was not enough time :)
15:54<arachnid>Do the OTTD routing algos build an abstract graph in memory, or work directly from the track etc information?
15:54<arachnid>Just out of curiosity
15:55<Aali>arachnid: cargodest builds a graph out of order lists
15:56<Aali>regular ottd doesn't care
15:56<arachnid>Sorry, I meant the train routing algorithm in OTTD
15:56<arachnid>Not the cargo routing algorithm in Cargodest
15:56<frosch123>yapf has has a cache, the other path finders not
15:56<Aali>well thats up to the pathfinder
15:56<arachnid>frosch123: Ah, so even yapf only caches?
15:58<frosch123>well the other pathfinders always start from scratch, and as you always have to use a edge at most once, there is no point in creating a graph
15:58<arachnid>You could create a single graph for all trains to use
15:58<arachnid>And update it when the track layout changes
15:58<frosch123>that is what yapf does
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15:58<frosch123>but only to some limited extent
15:59<frosch123>as the costs of the edges change over time
15:59<arachnid>Right. I meant you could maintain the whole thing in memory authoritatively
15:59<Aali>IIRC, yapf keeps track of "segments"
15:59<Aali>instead of individual pieces of track
15:59<Aali>but its not much more complicated than that
15:59<arachnid>Aali: That's what I was meaning when talking about a graph
15:59<arachnid>frosch123: How do the costs change?
16:00<frosch123>yapf has penalties for red signals which the train could reach near future. those change their states
16:00<arachnid>Ah, right
16:00<arachnid>Well, you could still maintain the graph, and apply per-pathfinder penalties. :)
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16:01<arachnid>I'm mostly just curious how it differs from how I'd attack the problem. It's obviously pretty efficient already. :)
16:01<Aali>you could always take a look at the code
16:01<frosch123>well, yapf is the most complicated one. I do hardly know all details of it. I only know that the other path finders start from scratch and work directly with the tracks
16:01<arachnid>I tried that. A lot of digging to get started, though. :)
16:02<frosch123>though yapf sucks for ships, as the graph is just too big
16:04<arachnid>You'd need some way to simplify the graph, that's for sure
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16:04<frosch123>the recommended pathfinder for ships is still the original pathfinder. it only considers a maximum of 4 turns to reach the destination. that is fast, but you need a lot of buoys in non-straight terrain
16:05<arachnid>yeah, it tends to result in some pretty stupid behaviour :P
16:05<arachnid>It's an interesting problem, though :)
16:06<rortom>stats working :D
16:06*Sacro wants RoR to work with his g25
16:06<arachnid>Though given that ship routes change far less often than train networks, you could probably use a naive dijkstra-based pathfinder and save the best path - and share it between all ships that share a leg. :)
16:06<arachnid>rortom: looks good
16:07<Antdovu>will you actually be able to show the amount of incoming cargo?
16:07<Antdovu>awesome :)
16:07<arachnid>I don't know how you'd know when to recalculate. You could force one if a piece of land obstructs the route, but how would you know when to look for a _more_ efficient one?
16:08<Antdovu>it's a shame when your busiest station is at a power station and you have no idea how much coal is delivered...
16:08<frosch123>arachnid: oh, I forgot. the main problem of ship pathfinding is, that the paths are not saved. pathfinding is restarted in every junction, which means every tile for ships
16:09<arachnid>frosch123: Right. I'm just speculating about a dedicated pathfinder that _could_ save paths. :)
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16:09<arachnid>Unless there's some architectural barrier to doing that?
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16:09<Antdovu>Surely it is possible to have a better pathfinder for ships
16:10<frosch123>well, you could store the paths, and recompute them only, when some player action modifies the drivable water
16:10<rortom>Antdovu: thats the idea i had as well about the power station ;)
16:10<Nazcafan>I have trouble when using dock -> train transferts
16:10<Nazcafan>I chose transfert instead of "unload"
16:10<arachnid>frosch123: Right. But you don't want to recalculate every time any piece of water changes.
16:10<Nazcafan>however, the ship keeps swallowing back the oil
16:11<frosch123>arachnid: that is far less often than a ship reaches a new tile :)
16:11<Antdovu>you need to set it to transfer and unload
16:11<planetmaker>Nazcafan: choose 'don't load' or 'no loading'
16:11<arachnid>frosch123: True, but if you have many ships, every 'click' of earthmoving could lead to a _lot_ of routefinding. :P
16:11<planetmaker>additionally to 'transfer'
16:11<Nazcafan>planetmaker, how
16:11<arachnid>Though admittedly even with many ships, probably the number of unique legs is still low
16:11<frosch123>still, it is in any case less than currently
16:11<Antdovu>there are a limited number of interesting paths for ships
16:12<arachnid>frosch123: But grouped with user actions, could lead to significant latency when trying to earthmove. :)
16:12<Antdovu>but that extra info would be useful
16:13<Antdovu>in multiplayer some people block ships by raising ground...
16:13<frosch123>well, you can add a "invalidate flag" to the stored path of all ships, which would be evaluated when a ship reaches the next tile
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16:13<arachnid>Maybe I'm overestimating the amount of pathfinding required even for large numbers of ships
16:13<arachnid>frosch123: True. In fact, a ship could validate all the tiles along its precalculated route are still drivable as it crosses each tile
16:13<Antdovu>do a large game with a lot of ships? :P
16:13<planetmaker>Nazcafan: at the load button: you choose 'no loading' at the unload button you obviously already chose transfer
16:14<arachnid>And recalculate only if it encounters land, or at the end of a leg if there's been earthmoving
16:14<planetmaker>but might be that it is now in the recent nightlies different than in the stables, not sure...
16:15<planetmaker>so you should end up with "transfer and leave empty"
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16:22<dih><Antdovu> in multiplayer some people block ships by raising ground... <- some people try to clear ships paths and they 'flood' the entire map
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16:24<rortom>i need to find my hook points in order to setup good stats
16:24<rortom>where would i put them in the best way?
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16:25<rortom>UpdateStationWaiting is maybe too general and cannot distinguish bestween incoming/outgoing :\
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16:31<Aperculum>is there a way to increase car/train reliability?
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16:32<ln->you should be busy drawing graphics for tomorrow.
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16:34<Aperculum>ln-, did I ask it "you should immediately do n"
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16:35<Aperculum>my point is that openttd isn't really going to be free until all components are free
16:35<rortom>orly? :p
16:35<planetmaker>Aperculum: you should read the 100+ pages thread on OpenGFX.
16:35<planetmaker>or rather threads.
16:35<planetmaker>And the one on the sound replacement project
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16:36<Aperculum>so there is people working on this
16:37<Aperculum>and what did I get when I asked for this "draw sum for tomorrow plz"
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16:39<ln->you showed how badly you underestimate the amount of work required, and how little you appreciate graphics artists' work.
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16:42<Aperculum>no, I just asked why it's not being done and you could have said "there are over 7000 sprites in original graphics files" instead you just started talking about me drawing some images that didn't really contain any information why
16:42<Aperculum>you know, politeness
16:42<@Rubidium>Aperculum: nothing because people have been working on a replacement set for years and it still isn't finished. And with the current progress it won't be finished tomorrow neither
16:43<Aperculum>I didn't mean to undermine the work there is, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression
16:44<Aperculum>also someone could have said there is people working on it already which I didn't know when I asked
16:44<@Rubidium>and it probably also had something to do with the way you asked the question
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16:45<Aperculum>but the response could have been more helpful also
16:46<dih><Aperculum> ln-, is it bigger work than it was to create rest of openttd? <- that implies that in your eye's OpenTTD simply could not have been a lot of work
16:46<dih>just the wrong approach to get a decent answer
16:47<Aperculum>I don't see how that implies that openttd isn't a lot of work
16:47<dih>you used the word "just" about graphics replacement and came up with that line!
16:47<dih>i serisouly dont see where that is a uplifting, sayting 'thanks', showing appreciation
16:47<Aperculum>I admit, I could have chosen my words more carefully
16:48<dih> ^ tripple p
16:48<dih>you could have asked if there was such a project, rather than asking why it's not done
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16:49<Aperculum>and answer could have contained link to that project since they knew it was being done
16:49<Eddi|zuHause><rortom> i need to find my hook points in order to setup good stats <- what about LoadUnload* or something?
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16:50<Aperculum>but enough of this, I admit my mistake with my sentence and hope people try to be more helpful with their answers although asker isn't so thoughtful
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16:51<Eddi|zuHause>since when are we here to give helpful answers?
16:52<rortom>Eddi|zuHause: i thought about it, but there should be a better one i guess?
16:52<+glx>rortom: how long before 0.36 ? ;)
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's the place where cargo actually gets loaded into the vehicles... just have to sum that up
16:53<rortom>glx: GRML
16:53<rortom>yep ;)
16:53<planetmaker>g'night folks
16:53<rortom>ge->cargo.MoveTo(...) is the main thing i guess
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>and if you want stats about how much the industries produce, just hook into the acceptance loop, and sum up all surrounding industries' production
16:54<rortom>one patch after another ... ;)
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>NO! EVERYTHING! RIGHT NOW!1!111!einself
16:57<rortom>not that its likely that my stuff gets merged
16:57<rortom>but that makes it even more unlikely
16:57<Aperculum>but you do it anyway, that's the spirit!
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17:01<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>why do i have the feeling that Aperculum has absolutely no clue what he is talking about?
17:03<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: because you and I share a telepathic bond
17:03<Aperculum>oh but I have some glue here
17:03<rortom>at some point everyones new ;)
17:04<Aperculum>Eddi|zuHause, clue concerning what?
17:04<Aperculum>graphics, coding?
17:05<rortom>the hooks are bad :(
17:05<rortom>somehow i must understand the cargo flow first ;)
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17:12*rortom is stupid
17:12<rortom>found a bad bug :\
17:12<dih>in your kitchen?
17:12-!-mortal [] has quit []
17:12<rortom>in my toaster :|
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17:13<rortom>how to use the scrollbars?
17:13<rortom>do i have to care myself about clipping?
17:13<rortom>and moving, etc?
17:21<rortom>got it working :)
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17:32<dih>rortom is monologing
17:33<rortom>yeah :(
17:33<CIA-5>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14570 /branches/noai/bin/ai/ (regression/regression.nut wrightai/main.nut): [NoAI] -Fix: add two ';' in .nut files, to make NAIL (v2) accept those files
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17:33<rortom>working good now
17:37<rortom>cleaning up now :\
17:38<rortom>what is the convention if i want to add new strings?
17:38<rortom>just continue the numbering?
17:38<@petern>ignore the numbers
17:41<rortom>ok, so just add like i wish?
17:41<rortom>like ->
17:42<+glx>numbers are from old strings (and don't match for most of them)
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17:50<rortom>should i ask if anyone wants to test? :|
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19:04<Nite_Owl>Time to feed - Later all
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19:59<CIA-5>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14571 /branches/noai/bin/ai/library/ (6 files in 6 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: various of fixes in the libraries to work with NAIL-v2
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21:41<Sacro>rortom: missing close bracket D:
21:41<Sacro>(is it a bug or a feature?;)
21:41<rortom>okok ;)
21:42<rortom>better? ;)
21:44<Sacro>nice patch too
21:44<rortom>thanks :)
21:45<SmatZ>rortom: you really dislike OTTD coding style :-P
21:45<rortom>i tried to adept
21:45<rortom>i guess its my { braches?
21:46<rortom>say whats wrong so i can correct it :\
21:53<rortom>fixed some braches, etc
21:53<rortom>new version uploaded
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 10 00:00:45 2008