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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-11

---Logopened Tue Nov 11 00:00:49 2008
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04:09<dih>Sebastian_Winterstein: as there are people here who speak german, this is still an english channel
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04:43<planetmaker>morning folks
04:43<planetmaker>hehe. good morning at 2am is... daring.
04:44<dih>anybody here with a cargodest build for os x (ppc)
04:45<dih>or would someone mind driggering the compile farm so that os x builds are available this time? ;-)
04:45<planetmaker>which reminds me that I still need to fix my boost installation :S
04:45<dih><- here too
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08:40<dih>@seen TrueBrain
08:40<@DorpsGek>dih: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 16 hours, 15 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> I hate youtube
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08:53<nicfer>I want an enclosed instruction book for ottd :(
08:57<planetmaker>you have the
08:58<@Rubidium>nicfer: the openttd binary itself is in effect an instruction 'book'
09:00<Antdovu>an ever-changing one and not very useful to most :P
09:01<Antdovu>but it helped me find out all double-click actions...
09:04<Antdovu>philosophical question: why shouldn't company A be able to upgrade a road bridge owned by company B?
09:04<Sacro>@seen SpComb
09:04<@DorpsGek>Sacro: SpComb was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 12 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <SpComb> I think there used to be downloadable dedicated binaries, but they phased them out
09:07<planetmaker>Antdovu: why shouldn't I be able to place my palace where your home is?
09:08<@Rubidium>yeah, lets upgrade Antdovu's house ;)
09:08<@Rubidium>painting it bright yellow and pink is an upgrade, right?
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09:09<Antdovu>can I have a unicorn as well? L)
09:09<Yexo>planetmaker: if I will be the owner of the new palace you build at the place my house is I wouldn't have any problem with that :p
09:09<planetmaker>Rubidium: you forgot the neon greeen dots.
09:10<Aali>Yexo: you should probably agree on a definition of "palace" first :P
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09:10<planetmaker>Aali: you're mean. I would have liked to comply with my then-chosen definition :)
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09:12<Yexo>still the question from Antdovu stands, it's already possible to upgrade bridges owned by towns. In that case the town is still the owner of the new bridge
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09:14<Aali>well, towns never actually use bridges, so what do they care?
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09:14<Yexo>why would you care if I upgraded your bridge to a faster one?
09:14<Aali>i would be pissed if someone messed with my bridges, for any reason
09:15<Aali>what if i dont want a fast bridge?
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09:16<Yexo>why wouldn't you want a fast bridge?
09:16<Antdovu>actually there is a problem with slow bridges: you might not be able to make a new road that is shorter than the current one
09:16<Aali>because i like the way it looks? (not kidding)
09:17<Yexo>Aali: think about it. The only situation someone else would want to upgrade your bridge is in case your bridge is too slow for their vehicles. If they'd want to mess with the way it looks they could also build silly rails under it or somehting like that
09:18<Aali>its my bridge, if you want a faster bridge you can either build one yourself or ask me to upgrade it
09:18<Aali>yes, its too slow _for them_
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09:18<Aali>even if their intent is good i might not like it
09:19<planetmaker>I'm on Aali's side :)
09:19<Yexo>I'm too. Good point you made there Aali ;)
09:20<Antdovu>Aalis point was the only one I came up by myself as well
09:21<Antdovu>but if in most cases you don't care whether somebody upgrades your bridge then it would be a good idea to let people upgrade it by default
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09:22<Antdovu>there are lots of ways to be an asshole in a multiplayer game
09:23<Doorslammer>I can think of 8 maximum :P
09:24<Antdovu>depends on the granularity
09:24<Sacro_>lbw is a fun one to try
09:24<Doorslammer>Leg before wicket?
09:26<Antdovu>I have no idea how it applies to ottd :P
09:27<Sacro_>there lies the challenge
09:28<Aali>Antdovu: if you really can't talk to anyone who has access to the company that owns the bridge, you're probably better off not using those roads
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09:29<Antdovu>(2:16:27 PM) Antdovu: actually there is a problem with slow bridges: you might not be able to make a new road that is shorter than the current one
09:29<Aali>frankly, the only scenario i see where this could be a problem is multi-lingual servers where someone decides to build a fuckload of slow bridges at some really important chokepoint
09:30<Aali>if you can't build a better route, just use the slow bridges
09:31<Aali>if your fast RVs lose money that way, maybe you should stick to slower ones
09:31<Antdovu>I could build a *faster*, but not *shorter* route
09:31<Aali>its not like you have to have the fastest bridge to make money
09:31<planetmaker>issue a go via order and you're don, Antdovu
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09:36<Antdovu>yeah, fortunately that's possible in trunk :)
09:36<planetmaker>I don't even consider the stable versions :P
09:37<Antdovu>I use stable versions to play my huge network games
09:37<Antdovu>PBS seems to have made it slower
09:37<planetmaker>why would you want to do that, Antdovu ?
09:37<planetmaker>oh... hm...
09:37<Antdovu>and I was already near the limit before
09:38<planetmaker>you already switched off full animation and so on?
09:38<planetmaker>do you use ships extensively?
09:39<Antdovu>it was 100% trains
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09:39<Antdovu>~1850 trains, 2048^2 map
09:39<planetmaker>he. That's big, yes.
09:40<Antdovu>including a station with 6 tracks in, 6 out :P
09:40<planetmaker>Well. I had that on 1k^2 :)
09:40<planetmaker>fully used.
09:40<Antdovu>mine was almost fully used
09:40<Antdovu>had problems in intersections
09:41<Antdovu>so called 2+1 layout
09:41<Antdovu>2 straight, 1 turning
09:41<planetmaker> <-- that game :)
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09:42<planetmaker>I hope my memory serves me well with the ore drop size :P
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09:43<Antdovu>nice one :P
09:43<planetmaker>I liked it.
09:45<Antdovu>mine was a monolith, 50 platforms, each length 7
09:45<Antdovu>all for coal...
09:45<planetmaker>Yeah, coal can jam a whole network, once the mines are up running
09:46<planetmaker>actually one of the reasons we nearly stopped doing coal as our money maker.
09:47<Antdovu>picture of (part) of the station:
09:47<Antdovu>you know what is crazier?
09:48<Antdovu>single source, single destination
09:49<Antdovu>just tried, even without full detail/animation it stays on 49-50% of a dual-core cpu
09:50<planetmaker>OpenTTD only uses one core.
09:50<planetmaker>irrespective how many you have.
09:50<Antdovu>I know
09:50<Antdovu>that's the problem ;)
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09:50<+glx>it's not a problem
09:50<planetmaker>I'll have a look at your game later. This computer certainly won't play it.
09:50<Antdovu>why isn't it?
09:51<+glx>2048^2 and many vehicles requires a very fast computer that's all
09:51<Antdovu>well, you have a fast computer, just ottd won't use it ;)
09:52<+glx>multi core is not always faster than single core
09:52<Antdovu>not always
09:52<+glx>I have a 3800+ and it's only 2GHz
09:52<Antdovu>but it easier to get 8 core CPU than a single core one that is 8 times as fast
09:52<planetmaker>The problem is parallelisation and then synchronization.
09:53<Antdovu>yeah, I have followed the discussions about that
09:53<Aali>Antdovu: that game is horrible in my eyes :P
09:53<Antdovu>not realistic?
09:54<+glx>it's only "faster" for applications designed to use multiple cores (and openttd is not (and won't be) one of those)
09:54<Aali>runs fine on my computer though, not even terribly slow fully zoomed out
09:54<Aali>Antdovu: copy&pasted junctions all over, leveled terrain etc, yeah
09:55<+glx>copy/paste is bad :)
09:55<Aali>i'm not saying you shouldn't play like that, i just like a little more challenge ;)
09:55<Antdovu>well, in my case the challenge is getting the network the handle the load
09:55<+glx>it's more fun to play around the terrain
09:56<Antdovu>and of course it has the problem of too much track, I don't get 3x bandwidth for my 3 track layouts
09:57<Antdovu>by the way: it is 300k cargo per 3 months without using goods
09:58<Antdovu>I could get a huge increase if I handled goods
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09:58*Antdovu is away
09:59<Avdg>i've found a bug in the orders...
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10:01<Aali>Avdg: good for you, care to tell the rest of us?
10:01<Avdg>if i use the order 'go to nearest depot and refit', it wouldn't refit...
10:01<Aali>Antdovu: i want my junctions to look more like this: ;)
10:02<Avdg>I'll report it at the bugtracker now...
10:05<keyweed>that's erh. quite a junction.
10:05<Aali>and its not even finished :/
10:05<keyweed>i'm actually tired of making huge junctions
10:06<keyweed>i simplified my network architecture so there is less need for them
10:06<Aali>petern: way to go there with the constructive criticism :P
10:06<Avdg>reported :)
10:07<keyweed>well. as for ugliness. it isn't symmetrical and lacks any kind of estheticly pleasing extra's :P
10:07<Aali>its not supposed to be symmetric
10:08<Avdg>that will be hard anyway... never saw an isometric version of that junction...
10:08<Aali>it could never be symmetric, there's a different number of tracks going in each direction
10:09<Avdg>the only way is crossing...
10:09<Aali>and all tracks are not connected, nor should they be
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10:10<keyweed>the problems is, efficient usually isn't pretty and pretty usually isn't efficient
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>some of my junctions are pretty and somewhat efficient
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>and in many cases without using bridges ;)
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10:11<keyweed>well. show us the magic
10:12*keyweed loves openttd screenshots
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10:12<Doorslammer>Bottle glass, glass bottle...
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10:12<Doorslammer>Thats magic
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>of course they don't have nearly the amount of throughput as a junction like in the picture...
10:12<keyweed>regular expressions, that's magic
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>Klein bottles are magic ;)
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>i had a pre-PBS savegame somewhere...
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>let me search
10:16<qball>is pbs in svn/git now?
10:16<qball>that is so great news
10:16<qball>I loved playing with pbs
10:16<keyweed>hmpfz. not allowed to run openttd here at work
10:16<qball>long time ago :D
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10:17<@petern>when it didn't work too well
10:17<+glx>qball: please note it's not the same PBS as the very ole version
10:17*qball hasn't been here in years?
10:17<qball>can still multiple trains enter station
10:17<qball>at the same time
10:17<qball>and so
10:17<@petern>well yeah, it's pbs :p
10:17<@petern>hmm, it's been there for 3 months
10:18<qball>haven't played unstable for a long long long time
10:18<+glx>the rule is easy, place a pbs signal in safe waiting places only
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>the rule for converting is even easier: remove all exit signals
10:20<Avdg>or delete the hole map :p
10:20<+glx>Sacro wants a KICK ?
10:20*qball slowly backs away
10:20*qball hugs Sacro
10:20<qball>don't kick him
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>if you have a hole in the map, you have more serious problems, i'm afraid :p
10:21<qball>ha ha ha
10:21<Avdg>yesterday i've been kicked without an reason... someone has tf a lot, so the admin has kicked everybody, not fun...
10:21<Avdg>even without warning...
10:21*petern wonders if 6000 processes is a bit too much
10:21<+glx>depends on the system I think
10:21<@Rubidium>depends on the case
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>,%2024.%20Jan%201951.png <- that might be a nice shot
10:22<Avdg>6000 processor of 1 hertz :)
10:22<Avdg>yeah, ty
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10:23<Avdg>how much processors will you need to program all these processors (if they are at the same speed) :p
10:24<@Rubidium>Avdg: depends on the processor
10:24<davis-->i cant ever motivate myself to play a SP game
10:25<qball>single player
10:25<Avdg>lol, im bored to play SP
10:25<Avdg>i want some fun in multiplayer :)
10:25<@Rubidium>Avdg: 47 processors and you've got a thread per process
10:26<Avdg>like 40 trains crossing on a junction at a unsignalled 8-form
10:27<Avdg>8-track if you dont understand :p
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand
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10:28<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: looks like you would have problems with jams in that game, ..if only you had more trains :)
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>i've had quite some problems with jams, yes, which is why there's such an elaborate holding system before that terminal station
10:29<Aali>its beautiful to look at though
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>,%2024.%20Dez%201939.png <- i've had more jams with this station, which is impossible to presignal correctly
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>but it's alright with path signals
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>which is why that's the first station i converted when the patch came out ;)
10:32<Aali>yeah, PBS is really great for long-signal-distance low-traffic tracks
10:32<Aali>practically does all the work for you ;)
10:33<qball>hmmmm I should try it out
10:33<Avdg>where should i upload it :/
10:33<Avdg>forgot the site :p
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>,%2030.%20Jun%201981.png <- well, and then there's this kludge of a station
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>that's already the PBS version
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10:36<Avdg>and it isnt crashing :)
10:36<Sacro>der hosenbugler
10:38<Avdg>like it?
10:38<Avdg>look at the cross under the bridge... i mean that track :)
10:41<murr4y>do you run the maarten servers ?
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>,%208.%20Mai%201931.png <- not a junction, but it's one of the most beautiful shots i have ;)
10:41<Avdg>maarten was online too :)
10:41<murr4y>oh you're not maarten ?
10:42<murr4y>but you run them with him ?
10:42<murr4y>you're doing a great job, i love playing on them :)
10:45<Antdovu>you know what is missing from maarten servers? trams
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10:48<@petern>i dunno, people with numbers in their name...
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10:49-!-qball is now known as Qba11
10:49<Qba11>What is wron giwth number in my name
10:49<Qba11>damn causing type imparement allready
10:52*Qba11 goes back to his corner *again*
10:53<@petern>balls don't have corners
10:53<Avdg>0O what is zero?
10:53<Avdg>the first or the second one?
10:54<Antdovu>"the first or the second one?": true
10:54<Avdg>yeah, the first one :p
10:54<@petern>was it some kind of quiz then?
10:54<Qba11>pretty hard one
10:54<Qba11>had to grab my calculator
10:56<Avdg>who has used his 6000 processors :p
10:57<+glx>Avdg: processes != processors
10:57<Avdg>oops :/
10:58*Qba11 grabs his smart-dust cluster
10:58<Avdg>no, processors :)
10:58<Avdg>[16:21:38] petern wonders if 6000 processes is a bit too much
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10:59<Qba11>hi Singaporekid
10:59<Qba11>your cap frenzy
10:59<Singaporekid>Oh, okay.
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11:01<Avdg>i'm exiting who will solve my reported bug :)
11:03<Antdovu>this is not a bug, it is a feature ;)
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11:05<Avdg>are you sure?
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11:08<Antdovu>no :P
11:08<Antdovu>but it would be a good reason to declare it fixed :P
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11:10<kazexe>files needed to run openttd
11:11<Qba11>nice to the point
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11:24<kazexe>what files areneeded to run openttd
11:25<@petern>the original data files from the cd, and those supplied in the download
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11:25<ln->and system C library
11:26<Swallow>I can confirm that FS2403 is an undocumented feature a.k.a. bug
11:27<Swallow>Looking into it right now
11:27<Antdovu>I managed to reproduce it as well
11:27<Avdg>i think it is a bug...
11:27-!-kazexe [~anader21@] has quit [Quit: Saliendo]
11:28<Avdg>unless it is dissabled, but it isn't
11:28<frosch123>and why did noone upload a savegame, which you just need to unpause?
11:29<Avdg>i wonder that i could edit my report...
11:29<Avdg>its easy to reproduce...
11:30<Avdg>should i upload a savegame then too?
11:30<Swallow>I have reproduced it, now i'm compiling with some debug statements to hopefully see what goes wrong
11:30<Avdg>its my first report :/
11:31<frosch123>well, if it is reproducible at once, you would usually not need to. but if you had, not everyone would have to write, that he can also reproduce it :)
11:31<planetmaker>just upload the current psg, avdg - if that's where you easily managed to do it :)
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11:31<Avdg>its not at the psg
11:31<Antdovu>added .sav
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11:33<Avdg>ty anyway :/
11:34-!-[com]buster [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:34<gregor>Avdg, yeah, wrong channel, I know :P
11:34-!-[com]buster [] has joined #openttd
11:34<Avdg>i hate that too :)
11:34<Sacro>try !password
11:35<+glx>is !svn from the same chan as !password?
11:36-!-Avdg [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:37<frosch123>just write "don't know which channel, but not HERE!"
11:38-!-Avdg [] has joined #openttd
11:38<+glx>but I don't want a third handler
11:38-!-Frostregen [] has joined #openttd
11:38<frosch123>a third? what is the second?
11:38-!-Zorni [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:38<frosch123>patchbot stuff?
11:39<+glx>only one for now (!links)
11:39*Sacro dies
11:40<ln->assert(Sacro != Bjarni);
11:42<Avdg>what does assert?
11:43<ln->*what does assert do
11:43<Antdovu>nothing/crashes program
11:43<ln->you need an auxiliary verb in this inferior english language.
11:43<benjamingoodger>actually you don't
11:43<Avdg>crash if expression is true, interesting...
11:43<gregor>What the fuck is this bot doing?
11:44<frosch123>inverse turing test?
11:44<+glx>Avdg: no if expression is false
11:44<ln->benjamingoodger: too often you do.
11:45<benjamingoodger>"what does assert think" would require the "does" as an auxiliary verb, but "what does assert do" doesn't require the "do" (which would be infinitive, not auxiliary) since "does" is its own auxiliary
11:45*Avdg wants to learn c++ :/
11:45<benjamingoodger>but it's conventional to use it
11:45<gregor>Avdg, start now. ;)
11:45-!-gauthier_ [] has joined #openttd
11:45<planetmaker>go right ahead.
11:45*Avdg php -> C++
11:45<benjamingoodger>Avdg: don't worry, we can treat that with medication
11:46<Avdg>seems intresting :p
11:46<Avdg>too bad, php is written in c...
11:46<benjamingoodger>as in, "I've been having these weird delusions", "don't worry, we can control that with medication"
11:47<Avdg>education sounds better :p
11:48<Antdovu>programming is easy ;)
11:48<Antdovu>unless you use crazy languages
11:49<Antdovu>and C++ is relatively sane
11:49<Avdg>like php :p
11:49-!-welshdragon [~vista@adsl-83-100-138-26.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
11:49<Antdovu>c is sane as well
11:49<Avdg>php is easy, but not easy to switch into big one :p
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>C/C++ is anything but sane...
11:49<Antdovu>try brainfuck and then say that :P
11:49<benjamingoodger>C and C++ are appalling
11:50<benjamingoodger>only C# is worse
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i know brainfuck
11:50<planetmaker>whitespace makes for nice readability, too.
11:50<Antdovu>yeah, I use that for my printed code
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>it is one of the nicer esoteric languages out there ;)
11:50<@Rubidium>I've seen more reliable applications written in C/C++ than in either php or python
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11:51<@Rubidium>reliable being that they don't leak memory and cause the OOM killer to intervene
11:51<ln->Avdg: most importantly, php is not sane.
11:51<Antdovu>well, C/C++ are older and used for different stuff
11:52<Antdovu>PHP scripts are usually killed in a few seconds so memory isn't that important...
11:52<gregor>asm is the todays programming language.
11:52<Avdg>if i could write a new language...
11:52<Avdg>maybe i will design my own asm
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>python, like all scripting languages, has the problem that the non-declarative-ness tends to seriously bite you back in the maintenance lifecycle
11:53<Avdg>then start avdg++
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>when you start out without a real plan
11:53<benjamingoodger>¬.¬ how many times...python isn't a scripting language
11:53<Antdovu>I really hate dynamic types in languages
11:53<benjamingoodger>and it's not dynamically typed
11:53<Avdg>i dont... but sometimes yeah
11:53-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
11:54<Avdg>if you can declare dynamic and nondynamic types, it should be bether :p
11:54<Avdg>but it will use more memory i guess
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: when a type can differ depending on the code path taken, what else would you call it than dynamic?
11:54<Antdovu>yes, but PHP doesn't allow it
11:54<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: duck
11:55<benjamingoodger>it's dynamically assigned, but statically modified and accessed
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>duck typing has nothing to do with dynamic typing
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>statically typed languages can use duck typing equally well
11:56<benjamingoodger>by which I mean, it is strongly typed
11:56<benjamingoodger>but I'm in over my head here. and I'm also late for dinner
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>strongly typed has also nothing to do with statically typed
11:56<Avdg>i want to combine many languages
11:56<Antdovu>C, C++, asm, python can be used at once
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11:57<Eddi|zuHause>languages can very well be strongly typed while they are dynamically typed
11:57<Avdg>wich language then?
11:57<Antdovu>at least you can use all from C++
11:57<Antdovu>+ there are language bridges
11:57<benjamingoodger>gregor: are you referring to ?
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>and statically typed does not imply strongly typed
11:58<benjamingoodger>because, that's not a programming language
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11:58<benjamingoodger>if you were referring to assembly, then, I get the joke :)
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11:59<gregor>benjamingoodger, last one. ;)
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: duck typing only means that class A {function b()} can be polymorphically used as class B {function b()}, even though they don't share an inheritance relationship
12:01-!-gauthier_ [] has joined #openttd
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>that is totally orthogonal to static/dynamic or strong/weak types
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12:06-!-gauthier_ is now known as gauthier
12:07<Avdg>hum... if v7.0 comes out, it will make a copy of the trunk and goes his own direction, right?
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>how do you figure there would ever be a v7.0?
12:08<Avdg>6 patches to go
12:08<+glx>there's no 1.0 yet
12:08<Avdg>i mean 0.7.0
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>then say that ;)
12:09<Antdovu>after 0.9.x we can have 0.10.0 :)
12:09<+glx>indeed :)
12:09<Avdg>when do we have an official V1?
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>and if you judge from history, there would be a 0.7 branch that will get bugfix releases from time to time, but no new features anymore
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>Avdg: would a time range from 1 second to infinity suit you?
12:10<Avdg>so if there is a old bug in the trunk, then you need it to fix it twice :/
12:10<@Rubidium>after 0.9.x comes 0.A.x
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>it's called backporting, Avdg.
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>it happens all the time
12:11<Antdovu>0.F.x -> 0.G.0 ?
12:12<Avdg>0.Z.0 -> 0.1Z.0?
12:12<frosch123>Avdg: after solaris 2.6 came solaris 7
12:12<+glx>no 0.F.0 -> 0.10.0
12:12<Avdg>ow hex
12:12<Sacro>surely you go 0-9a-zA-Z?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>0.♓.x -> 0.♔.x
12:12<Sacro>and then onto utf32
12:12<Avdg>lol, stopid discussion
12:14*Avdg wants to fix bugs, he hasnt fix any bug at bughuntday :'(
12:14<Antdovu>create one and then fix it
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>the person who hunts is not necessarily the person who cooks
12:15<Avdg>i've reported already 2 bugs, but only 1 at the bugtracker
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>there are synergy effects to consider
12:15<Avdg>my first one was the buoy-delete == crash bug
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>someone wake me when we are at version 0.0.0 ;)
12:16<Antdovu>CmdSetCompanyColor (should be CmdSetCompanyColour) is a critical bug ;)
12:17<Avdg>not really for the computer :p
12:17<Antdovu>my computer sneezes every time it sees color instead of colour ;)
12:18<Avdg>actually, computers doesn't make bugs, human say it is a bug...
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>actually, the term "bug" comes from a time where there were really bugs in the computer, causing shortcuts
12:18<Avdg>even when windows is crashing caused by wrong hardware :p
12:18<Sacro>twas a moth
12:19<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: is that GOATSE?
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>err... i don't think so...
12:19<Avdg>lool, we have to make a new chanel... #al languages inc.
12:19<Antdovu>well, reboot has a similar history :P
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>i've never heard a plausible story why it's called "boot"
12:20<Avdg>boot is at other chanel :p
12:21<Antdovu>reboot = hit a computer with your foot
12:21<Antdovu>they used to have interesting kinds of memory...
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>Antdovu: that is definitely not a plausible story
12:22<Avdg>!update definition reboot: hit the resetbutton accidently
12:22<Antdovu>why not?
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>because it does not explain the word "booting" [without "re-"]
12:23<Aali>boot is just short for bootstrap
12:23<Antdovu>it doesn't have to have any connection
12:23<Avdg>:p im also interested in the hardware...
12:23<frosch123>it is called boot, because the operator had to put on his boots to go out into the dark and enter the building from the backside to turn on the machine :p
12:24<Aali>which in turn is short for bootstrap load
12:24<Avdg>history for haters :p
12:25<Aali>which refers to the process of loading a simple program that will do whatever has to be done to get the system running without the help of an operator
12:25<Aali>much like a real bootstrap will let you get your boots on without help from someone else
12:25<Avdg>i want to know how a real computer starts :p
12:26<Swallow>I have posted a fix for FS2403 (
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>real computers start by a wing flap of a bytterfly
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>or something :p
12:27<Avdg>hum... why should trains revert automatic?
12:28<Avdg>i like that image :p
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>i have a box of those at homee
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>for like 128 byte of printer storage
12:29-!-Batti5 [~Lorand@] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.7 :]
12:29<Antdovu>I have 10 bits of storage on my hands :)
12:30<Avdg>and 10 on our feets :p
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>they're called "digits" ;)
12:31<Avdg>howmuch kb does our body have (normal)
12:31<Antdovu>any suggestions for the GUI of part1?
12:32<Antdovu>I have a working prototype for the functionality
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>Avdg: i'd say the brain can store significantly more than an average hard drive, but it is not "random access"
12:33<nicfer>currently there is no way to create a station between two others, joining one of them
12:34<Antdovu>there was a patch, wasn't there?
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there is
12:34<Avdg>i mean, fingers, etc... :p
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>you need to cover at least one tile from the station you want to join
12:34<Avdg>:p now i understand the patch :p
12:35<nicfer>but it's not possible if the tile where you want to put the station is adyacent to another one
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it is
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>you must overbuild an existing tile from the station, i said
12:36<Antdovu>yep, it works
12:36<Antdovu>never knew that...
12:37<nicfer>that doesn't work for road stations
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>that is true, they cannot cover more than 1 tile
12:37<Aali>distant join patch can do it though
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>but afaik there was a patch for drag&drop road stations
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>which would allow that again
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>distant-join is disputed functionality.
12:38<Antdovu>drive-through road stations never seem to work well
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>drive-through stations work well, if you don't rely on multistop
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>multistop was not adapted to the two loading bays being accessible from different directions
12:39<Aali>distant join is kindof a messy patch, but very very useful
12:40<Antdovu>why not make one way drive-through stations so overtaking isn't a problem?
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could try to rewrite it cleanly, and then start another attempt of getting it included
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12:40<Aali>it will never be clean without some big rewrites though
12:40<Avdg>i hope that my report will be fixed and added, before 0.7.0 comes out :p
12:40<Avdg>need to go
12:41<Aali>there's just not enough space for all that info in a single command
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>0.7.0 won't be likely to come out in the next couple of days :p
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: the command only needs an additional station id, doesn't it?
12:42<Avdg>6 at the buglist...
12:42<Avdg>and then alpha?
12:42<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: yes, and there's not enough bits free for that
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>that's unfortunate ;)
12:43<Aali>so the current patch butchers the format and cuts some of the grf bits
12:43<Swallow>not enough space in which DoCommand?
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion: split the reservation for the station tiles command from the build station on existing station tiles command?
12:44-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>so for the first command you get a station of empty tiles, which are then filled by the second command?
12:45<Aali>the idea is to interfere as little as possible with current behaviour
12:46<Aali>creating another command you have to execute to get a station doesn't really help
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes that is not a strategy that leads to the goal ;)
12:46<Aali>thats not a strategy, that is the goal
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>i'd argue with that statement...
12:47<Aali>the patch works, all thats left is to make it more compatible with 3rd-party code
12:47-!-fonso [] has joined #openttd
12:48<Swallow>You are talking about CMD_BUILD_RAILROAD_STATION, right?
12:48<Aali>Swallow: yes
12:48-!-davis-- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:48<Swallow>Why is there not enough space there?
12:49<Swallow>p1 bit 1..7 and 25..31 and p2 bit 4..7 and 24..31 are unused AFAIK
12:50<Aali>don't ask me, i didn't write it
12:50<@petern>probably not enough map space, rather than not enough space in the command parameters.
12:51<Aali>err, it doesn't use any map space at all
12:52*Swallow agrees
12:52<@petern>hmm, then i don't know what you're talking about :)
12:54<Aali>hmm, it assumes any "regular" command is joining INVALID_STATION though
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12:55<Aali>so, even if the format was preserved, it wouldn't work with unmodified code
12:55<Sacro>Aylomen: trains always stop *behind* signals
12:55<@petern>command parameter format can be changed at will
12:56<@petern>26 bits free is plenty
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: wth do you mean with "unmodified code"? you either modify it, or don't, there is nothing inbetween
12:57<Aali>obviously, you have never tried to merge noai with distant join
12:57<Sacro>"slighly pregnant"?
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>that is an entirely different problem :p
12:58<@petern>that's a problem for whoever merges with noai :p
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>and definitely not a problem for trunk inclusion
12:59<Antdovu>why does ottd hate STL?
13:00<Aali>well, either you try to keep command parameter format, or you hide it from "the rest of the code"
13:01<Aali>since the latter isn't being done in ottd, the former should be
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13:04<@petern>you are not making sense
13:07<Aali>as it is now, you have to know the command parameter format for a given command to execute that command properly
13:07<Aali>thats fine, but some effort should be made to keep the format unchanged, if possible
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to do an abstraction from the parameter format, that is a completely different patch
13:08<Yexo>why? the command is only executed by openttd code, so if all calling code is also changed, I don't see any problem?
13:09<Aali>the problem is that you have to find and change all calling code
13:09<@Belugas>uniformization of the parameters of the commands???
13:09<@Belugas>that is... awkward
13:09<Yexo>Aali: that only takes one grep through the source code
13:09<@Belugas>or whetever
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: grep CMD_BUILD_STATION?
13:09<Antdovu>"find all references" button...
13:09<@petern>that is done *once* by the patch that changes it
13:09*Belugas nods
13:10<Aali>clearly i am pushing some buttons here
13:10<@Belugas>you have to, in order for us to read your lines ^_^
13:10<Aali>i'm simply saying the author of distant join shouldn't have butchered the parameter format, because its not needed
13:11<Aali>and all your suggestions would not have solved the issue with noai passing bad parameters to distant join
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>if you want an abstraction from the parameter format, you could try inline functions "packXYZCmdParameters" and "unpackXYZCmdParameters"
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13:12<Aali>i dont
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: all of our statements said this is a non-issue
13:12<Aali>i already told you, the fact that command parameters aren't abstracted away does not bother me
13:13<Aali>it would be silly, since they're only constructed in maybe one or two places
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13:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's not silly, because then it is cleanly documented how parameters are constructed, and both construction and use are in the same spot
13:13<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: its an annoyance that could've been avoided, and i dont see why you get all worked up about it, did you write distant join? :P
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>no, but i'd like to see the functionality in a clean form to promote trunk inclusion
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>and i studied software engineering, so i know about this kind of abstraction strategies ;)
13:15<Wolf01>I and Frostregen wrote the distant join
13:16<+glx>s/the/a/ I think :)
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13:17<Wolf01>the I think, since there aren't other versions
13:17<Wolf01>it's always the same one only sync-ed with trunk
13:17<+glx>I though there was a version safer for MP
13:18<Aali>Wolf01: the issue at hand is the butchered command parameter format for CMD_BUILD_RAILROAD_STATION, that caused some problems with noai
13:18<+glx>Aali: that's a noai problem
13:18<Aali>i think you should have kept it compatible with the original format, but you could not have foreseen this issue :P
13:18<Aali>glx: that depends on how you look at it
13:18<+glx>and it's not a problem as the patch is not a noai patch but a trunk patch
13:19<Wolf01>as far I remember it is fully compatible with the original format
13:19<Wolf01>*as I
13:19<Aali>Wolf01: it is not, not anymore, atleast
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: easy combining of patches is never going to be a good design goal
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>(in this instance)
13:20<+glx>any patch is compatible with the version it's designed for
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>and the bigger the patch is, and the longer the time between original creation and (hypothetical) trunk inclusion, the higher the risk that the codebase diverges too much.
13:28<@Belugas>Aali, are you suggesting that noAI should have been programmed in order to not conflict with all the other patches around?
13:29-!-Gekz [] has joined #openttd
13:29<Aali>Belugas: no i'm suggesting distant join should have been programmed in order to conflict with as few things as possible
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13:29<frosch123>petern, DaleStan: <- any complains/suggestions in advance before discussing it on the forums?
13:31<@petern>2a is invalid
13:31<@petern>bit 15 still signifies a callback, yes?
13:32<@petern>so bit 15 can't be the reverse flag
13:32<DaleStan>Var 47 version bump definitely needed. It's a change.
13:32<frosch123>true, have to shift it right by one :)
13:32<@petern>that limits articulated parts to IDs under 16384, which should be okay
13:34<@petern>i want 32 bit results for cb36 ;)
13:35<frosch123>register 0x100 ?
13:35<DaleStan>Missing change: In v8, if all callbacks are 15-bit, then should FF## be 7F## instead of 00##?
13:35<@petern>actually that one's problematic
13:35<@petern>as it coexists with 8bit values too :o
13:36<frosch123>hmm, 16 bit callbacks :)
13:36<@petern>cb16 is confgusing
13:37<@petern>0xffff is a callback value of 0x7fff
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13:38<frosch123>petern: reload, I changed it into a proper 15 bit callback
13:38-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
13:38<Yexo>cb18 (and maybe others) cannot be extended for more rail types currently
13:39<frosch123>Yexo: you can add new subtypes to cb18. so it does not need a grf version bump
13:40<@petern>cb18 is an abomination anyway :)
13:41<DaleStan><petern> 0xffff is a callback value of 0x7fff <-- not so in v4-v7.
13:42<Yexo> <- as alternative to cb18 for trains. I was told a change like that needs a grf version bump, so maybe this is the time to consider that.
13:45<frosch123>Yexo: That suggestion would restrict callback 18 to be a noai only callback, and would stop supporting TTDP AIs. You have to add a new value for variable 86 for noai stuff. Then you can do what you like, without any version bump.
13:45<Yexo>frosch123: I don't see why a TTDP AI couldn't use that callback
13:47<frosch123>you have to discuss that with a patch dev. but I guess they will happily await your patch :)
13:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14575 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
13:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-11 18:47:38
13:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changed by Excel20 (2)
13:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: latvian - 14 fixed by v3rb0 (14)
13:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: macedonian - 161 fixed, 15 changed by sashozs (176)
13:48<CIA-5>OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 fixed by joznaz (1)
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13:50<frosch123>Yexo: despite of that, "81 W" is highly incompatible with everything that has been specified for newgrfs before
13:51<frosch123>i.e. 80+x variables are just offsets into a memory area. so when 81 is a word, 82 is the high byte of 81
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13:51<Yexo>ok, I didn't know that
13:52<DaleStan>Ditto 84 and 85. And thus it will stay.
13:52<Yexo>still, the current cb18 has "82 B default selection" where "default selection" is an EngineID when features = 00-03
13:52<Yexo>ie it doesn't work with the engine pool
13:56<FloSoft>82B? thats not sooo big *scnr*
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14:17<Wolf01>try with tits
14:17<Chrill>you dont have the power to eat up passwords on the brianetta server?
14:17<Chrill>seeing how the site says "contact brianetta irc email blabla", Chrill wants his password :P
14:18<Sacro>hehe :)
14:18*Sacro has the powah
14:18<Chrill>you has my pass?
14:18<Sacro>I can aquire it
14:18<Chrill>would you do that for chrillums?
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14:34<davis->omg its a trap
14:43<nicfer>I can't wait for the OCS renewal
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14:45<nicfer>it makes powerplants useful again
14:49<Wolf01>I can't wait for any feature, I need some serotonin, new features make me feel slightly better, like purchasing things like games (which I don't play because I have not enough time) or electronics or books
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14:53<nicfer>there is a dead patch I liked: the seasons one
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15:01<davis->wrong link
15:02<davis->hows that going on
15:02<frosch123>we are playing the finished version for months
15:03<frosch123>havn't you noticed, that there were a lot less commits in the last weeks? what do you think we are doing :p
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15:03<davis->iam lost , apparantly
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15:04<Antdovu>frosch123: learning macedonian :)
15:05<frosch123>serbian would be more useful :)
15:05<Antdovu>well, there are basically two schools of thought...
15:05<Wolf01>they have cbh, diagonal bridges, new map array, rotatable maps and more than 10 new road/rail types too
15:06<Antdovu>I am pretty sure it isn't April yet ;)
15:06<frosch123>but 11.11.
15:07<Wolf01>4-1, first april :D
15:08<Qball>hmmm pbs gooodness
15:08<Qball>I don't have time to play gains
15:08<Qball>but goood
15:09<@Rubidium>no, April 1st is reserved for releases
15:17<nicfer>still, I think that fake subways are the way to go
15:17<nicfer>even through this feature will kinda help
15:18<Wolf01>the main problem is to set the height of the transparency :P
15:18<@petern>you have no idea
15:19<nicfer>just tunnel a tramtrack below houses and other stuff, leaving curves and stations visible
15:20<@Belugas>not me
15:20<nicfer>I have two words for you: it's unrealistic :)
15:21<Wolf01>I know you're hiding wonderful features like you are Area51 :P
15:21<nicfer>REAL subways, behind all the implementation mess, would be hard to control
15:22<@Rubidium>nicfer: if done correctly it's no harder than any normal rail/rv network
15:22<nicfer>having to press a button for seeing your subways is kinda molest
15:23*Belugas wants to elect nicfer as chief-coder for OpenTTD
15:24*nicfer notes that I have no idea about programming
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15:26<@petern>"is kinda molest"... what?
15:27<Antdovu1>if we ever get real subways then somebody is going to build a huge coal transporting network underground, on maglev trains if possible :P
15:27<@petern>and so what? heh
15:28<Antdovu1>well, it needs more features
15:28<Antdovu1>a HUGE pink unicorn is needed as well
15:28<frosch123>transporting coal underground is nothing special :)
15:28<nicfer>also they should be coded as trams, only using underground tracks
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15:29<nicfer>like trams*
15:29<Wolf01>then we'll need fully flexible bridges as locomotion to be able to build more levels overground :P
15:29<frosch123>you would need a fitting vehicle grf, like the "heavy whatever stuff"
15:29<@petern>any more stupid suggestions and you'll answer to my ban-stick
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15:29<Antdovu1>maglev coal trains in a subway isn't probably very common :P
15:30<Antdovu1>but you never know with china...
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15:31<@Belugas>yeah! I've got another suggestion : there should be mp3s reading instead of midi ;)
15:34<frosch123>true, a modern game would allow plugging your guitar into the computer, and to increase your initial funds with a good performance
15:34<Wolf01>I was looking yesterday for an usb guitar
15:36<@Belugas>oh.. instead of chatting, it will actually send out the sound of the instruments!
15:36<ln->*for an usb guitar yesterday
15:36<@Belugas>a live band system!
15:36<SpComb>usb air guitar
15:36<@Belugas>and after a while, no one cares about the trains, just grooving on a beat ^_^
15:37<@petern>*a usb
15:37<Wolf01>that's easy, it's just an usb cable from the pc to... your pocket :D
15:37<ln->*a usb
15:38<SpComb>a usb air guitar that doesn't generate any kind of signal is kind of useless
15:39<Antdovu>it works on faith
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16:07<dih>Belugas, how about a chat reader? rather than having to actually pay attention to that text, OpenTTD will read it out loud :-P
16:07*dih hides
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16:10<Antdovu>I just don't see the point in such a feature
16:11<Antdovu>How will it help me find out how many trains I need to add?
16:12<@Belugas>Antdovu, it won't
16:13<Antdovu>then it is certainly completely useless :P
16:14<@Belugas>HO MY GOD!!!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ?????
16:15<Antdovu>maybe ;)
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16:38<George>DaleStan: says var 82 is Word. what happens if a town has population over 64K?
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16:42<DaleStan>Something. Probably a clamp, but it might overflow.
16:43<DaleStan>OpenTTD and early versions of TTDPatch are more likely to overflow.
16:44<George>And what about the latest nighties?
16:44<George>Would it be hard to make it FF FF then?
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16:44<DaleStan>I take it that means you have confirmed it doesn't clamp in the nightlies?
16:46<SmatZ>most likely it is clamped
16:46<George>well, I got only 52K population yet, so it was a theoretical question. But if necessary, I'll make a test on week end
16:46<SmatZ> case 0x82: return ClampToU16(t->population);
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16:51<CIA-5>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14576 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: typo in doxygen comment (Finaldeath)
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16:52<SmatZ>ah, George was asking DaleStan, ignore me then :)
16:52<SmatZ>apparently you did...
16:53<George>sorry, I asked anybody who can answer
16:54<DaleStan>It looks to me like it's clamped in both beta 9 and the latest Patch nightlies.
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17:15<rortom>@seen TrueBrain
17:15<@DorpsGek>rortom: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 0 hours, 50 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> I hate youtube
17:15<Yexo>rortom: what do you need TrueBrain for?
17:16<rortom>he wanted me to tell a name of a nice climbing hall in the netherlands ;)
17:16<rortom>you tested my patch? :)
17:16<Yexo>ah, he is active in #openttd.noai, just not here
17:16<Yexo>not yet, I've been busy
17:16<rortom>sure :)
17:16<rortom>ive fixed some bugs i had yesterday
17:17<rortom>also im questining what statistics i should add
17:17<rortom>some more senseful then the ones now
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17:46<Sacro>@seen Belugas
17:46<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Belugas was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 32 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <Belugas> HO MY GOD!!!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ?????
17:47<Chrill>Such a quite can only be Belugas'
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17:48<Sacro>almost like he pre-empted me
17:51<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14577 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2403]: vehicle didn't respect its 'refit in nearest depot' order (Swallow)
17:55<Sacro>Anyone else here use Delphi?
17:58-!-murr4y [murray@2001:470:1f0a:1be::a1c0] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:01<SmatZ>Sacro: Belugas
18:01<Sacro>SmatZ: else
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18:02<SmatZ>Sacro: you didn't specify "else than who"
18:02<Sacro>SmatZ: pfft
18:03<Antdovu>I used to use it
18:03<Antdovu>but then the nightmare ended and I woke up
18:03<+glx>Sacro: frosh123
18:03*SmatZ 's ignore list grows a bit again :)
18:04<Sacro>I want to know what a type 20 is when decompiling a delphi generated file
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 11 20:14:46 2008
---Logopened Tue Nov 11 20:14:52 2008
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23:59<vraa>i am trying to get some AI's working in openttd, i am on mac os x 10.5, i have downloaded a nightly build, r14575. i created a dir called "ai" and put in a few .tar files
---Logclosed Wed Nov 12 00:00:06 2008