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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-12

---Logopened Wed Nov 12 00:00:06 2008
---Daychanged Wed Nov 12 2008
00:00<Aali>you need a noai build for that
00:00<vraa>i pushed "`" key and brought down console, i typed "list_ai" and it said back "Error: command or variable not found"
00:00<Aali>noai is not in trunk yet, its a separate branch
00:00<vraa>http://www.openttd.org/en/download-noai <-- is that a proper place to download it from?
00:01<Aali>that seems about right, yes
00:01<vraa>okay thanks, let me test it out
00:02-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:02<vraa>excellent, where should i submit crash reports?
00:02<vraa>i typed "start_ai wrightai" and it crashed
00:03<Aali>what did it tell you? was it an assert?
00:03<vraa>i just tried admiralai and it creashed again
00:03<vraa>i am not sure, let me pastebin a crash log
00:04<vraa>http://pasternak.superalloy.nl/pastes/1058
00:06<Aali>that looks like something you'd want to report as a bug, yes :)
00:06<Aali>bugs.openttd.org
00:06<vraa>i'm not sure how to go about that process, do you guys use trac?
00:08<vraa>do crashes on non-windows not product a crash.log and crash.dmp file?
00:09<Aali>nope
00:11<vraa>is it possible i am doing something else wrong? are all AI's broken with the NoAI build?
00:13<Aali>its probably an OS X issue
00:13<vraa>oh
00:13<Aali>afaik, none of the devs have OS X to test on
00:13<vraa>oh that sucks
00:14<vraa>well, let me go to my desktop :(
00:14<vraa>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2405
00:16<Aali>ah, its actually crashing in the freetype lib
00:16<Aali>so you might want to look into that
00:16<vraa>how did you find that out?
00:17<Aali>FT_RoundFix is a freetype function ;)
00:24<Aali>further investigation shows that SIGABRT is caused by OS X when its not able to find a library
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00:24<Aali>so, you're probably just missing the freetype libs
00:25<vraa>i am going to download and play on my windows computer instead
00:25<vraa>if osx wants to be a crybaby, let it
00:31<vraa>can i only run 1 AI at a time?
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01:45<Eddi|zuHause>you can run 1 AI per AI player
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04:11<planetmaker>[06:16] <Aali> afaik, none of the devs have OS X to test on <--- untrue.
04:11<planetmaker>and good morning #openttd :)
04:16<@Rubidium>oh... if someone wants to 'quote' me, then 'quote' me and don't guess what I might have said
04:20<@petern>hmm?
04:21<@Rubidium>petern: looks very much like something I said, but it misses a few nuances
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04:34<Aali>planetmaker: hence the "afaik", i was not sure of that :)
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04:41<planetmaker>Aali: how else should they provide OS-X binaries?
04:41<planetmaker>@seen Bjarni
04:41<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 12 hours, 13 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <Bjarni> <ln-> well, good to see you back amongst the healthy, in any case. <-- sort off.... I'm totally tired and I missed everything at uni this week
04:43<@petern>you don't need OS X to provide OS X binaries
04:44<@petern>i can't remember the last time bjarni actually tested something ;)
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04:45<planetmaker>petern: I know, and I know you don't produce them this way. But to properly support it, it usually requires one dev to have that operating system - at least for the OS-specific issues.
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04:55<@petern>planetmaker, not really, it just needs someone to test.
04:55<planetmaker>hm... yeah. But way easier, if the person to test it, is yourself.
04:56<planetmaker>(= the person who writes the patch)
04:57*petern ponders resyncing railtypes.hg
04:57<planetmaker>:)
04:57<@petern>hmm, only 44 changesets
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05:01<fonso>I still think that diagonal levelling is very useful, especially for large maps where you might want to lay long stretches of diagonal rail. Still, no one has commented. See FS#2320 and FS#730
05:03*davis-- hi
05:04<Antdovu>why was it rejected?
05:04<planetmaker>petern: jumping onto the trains with 'look at this patch': maybe you want to re-consider the newgrf-gui http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2195 :)
05:05<planetmaker>last thing I did was fixing the one-off error and updating it. But as far as I'm aware it still applies smoothyl to current trunk.
05:06<fonso>No one rejected the diagonal levelling patch. At least I haven't heard of it.
05:06<fonso>It seems I just can't get anyone to take a look at it.
05:07<planetmaker>no comment != no look :)
05:07<Antdovu>all the devs are busy learning macedonian ;)
05:07<fonso>so what should I do? It has been around for some months now.
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05:09<Antdovu>unfortunately I have no idea, I started with patches just a few days ago
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05:17<Aali>diagonal levelling can wait, i really want to see newgrf-gui in trunk, though
05:18<Aali>its so much better than the old gui
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05:23<Antdovu>how do they conflict?
05:24<Aali>they take up devs precious time ;)
05:24<planetmaker>:)
05:27<Antdovu>by the way, I managed to make my company info save/load patch (almost) fully functional
05:33<Antdovu>should it save the company password?
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05:37<davis->hm
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05:43<Antdovu>Yexo: should saving company info also save the password?
05:44<Yexo>I don't think so
05:44<Yexo>besides, you can already set a default password
05:45<Yexo>is it even possible to save the password?
05:45<Antdovu>I could always capture it when the user finishes typing it :P
05:46<Antdovu>not sure otherwise
05:46<Yexo>that is certainly a bad idea
05:46<Antdovu>yeah, would be a bit of a hack...
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05:52<Yexo>livery[i].colour1 = t1; <- I suggest you call a DoCommand that does the same, because this won't work in multiplayer
05:53<Antdovu>that is a local variable
05:53<Antdovu>I load &verify the file before docommandp
05:54<Yexo>ah, I see
05:57<Antdovu>any other possibly bad parts?
05:57<Yexo>not that I see
05:58<Yexo>looks like a nice patch
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05:59<Antdovu>well, it would probably have to get rid of sstream, fstream & string usage, wouldn't it?
06:00<Yexo>yeah, that would be best
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06:00<Antdovu>fortunately that wouldn't be too difficult
06:01<Antdovu>what about the general file format it uses for saving?
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06:28<Yexo>SmatZ: Why did you move FS#2404 to NoAI? The report is also valid for trunk
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07:49<huset>morning.
07:49-!-huset is now known as china
07:49<china>i think i have a simple one
07:49<china>i use the same trucks for oil as for fuel oil, right?
07:50<Yexo>that depends on the newgrf you use, but most probably yes
07:50<china>oh, ok.
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07:51<china>it doesnt seem to work. :3
07:51<Yexo>did you refit the truck? What vehicle newgrf are you using?
07:51<china>oh, i have to refit it? :o
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07:52<Yexo>yep
07:52<china>but when its in the depot, i cant click the refit button
07:53<Yexo>again, what vehicle newgrf are you using? ie are you sure the truck is refittable to fuel oil?
07:53<china>let's see
07:53<china>(im new to this, hold on)
07:54<china>ottdc_grfpack_7.2.tar.bz2
07:54<china>could that the be right answer? :3
07:54<Yexo>that is a pack that contains a lot of newgrfs
07:54<china>oh, ok.
07:54<china>when i open the newgrf setting, i have alot of them added.
07:54<Yexo>in game, the 3rd button of the main toolbar, there is "NewGRF settings" under there
07:55<Yexo>try that
07:55<Yexo>what openttd version are you using?
07:55<Yexo>0.6.3 or a nightly?
07:55<china>0.6.3
07:55<Yexo>what truck are you trying to refit?
07:55<china>volvo oil tanker
07:55<china>to fuel oil.
07:57*china has no idea.
07:57<Yexo>what industry newgrf are you using?
07:58<china>i can see that under the newgrf setting, right?
07:58<Yexo>yes
07:58<Yexo>I suspect Pikka basic industries, is that correct?
07:58<china>yes
07:58<china>v1.311
07:59<Yexo>can you try starting a new game with only PBS and LV4 loaded?
07:59<Yexo>the volvo is refitteble to fuel oil here
08:00<Yexo>btw, can you refit the volvo to other cargo types or not at all?
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08:00<china>not at al
08:00<china>all*
08:00<Yexo>and you are sure it is stopped in the depot?
08:00<china>how does one start a single game (i have a multiplayer server up right now) with only pbs and lv4? :<
08:01<china>let's see.
08:01<Yexo>go to the main menu, and remove all other newgrfs there
08:01<china>yep, it's even telling me its waiting in depoo.
08:01<Yexo>then start a singleplayer game
08:02<Yexo>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/images/7/7d/Refit_ship.png <- and you are using the correct button?
08:02<china>in a singleplayer game, i cant change it either.
08:02<china>yep
08:02<china>it's faded
08:03<china>i applyed pikkas durig the single player game, and it still didnt work.
08:04<china>+n
08:04<Yexo>you should never change newgrfs during a game, that can give all kinds of probolems
08:05<china>oh, ok.
08:06<Yexo>I have no idea what your problem can be, as it works here
08:06<china>ok
08:06<china>well
08:06<china>the server as it is works
08:06<china>so i guess ill leave it
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08:10<china>i just recently realized that i could use my old server for openttd
08:10<china>and its awesome.
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08:12*china love trucks
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08:29<Brianetta>trucks
08:29<Brianetta>I find them hard to like
08:30<Brianetta>mainly because I dislike them IRL
08:32<china>:)
08:32<china>well
08:32<china>its something special with filling a map with thousand of them
08:33<china>tho, i remember when i played singleplayer some year ago
08:33<china>and built train connection on every single industry on a 2048^2 map
08:34<china>and played in hi-speed, and the map looked like a cpu. :P
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08:40<xerxesdaphat>anybody familiar with the new conditional order jumps?
08:43<china>Yexo: i just got a tonne of problem
08:43<china>the place that im leaving oil at is maxing, and i cant send it away :<
08:43<china>no it doesnt accept oil no more
08:43<china>noooooo
08:43*china screams
08:43<Yexo>then send your oil to another industry
08:44<Yexo>xerxesdaphat: what do you want to know?
08:44<china>aha
08:45<china>now i know
08:45<china>some veichles doesnt support refitting
08:45<china>i solved it
08:45<china>whohoo!
08:45<xerxesdaphat>Yexo: having a little trouble understanding how it's supposed to work
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08:46<xerxesdaphat>i've got a little shunter train taking coal and dropping it off for transfer
08:46<xerxesdaphat>the behaviour i want is for it to wait until there's more than 50% full, then skip to the next order where it leaves the station and transfers the coal
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08:47<Yexo>currently that is not possible
08:47<xerxesdaphat>ah ok
08:47<Yexo>conditional orders are only checked after the current order is done
08:47<xerxesdaphat>how is it intended to be used?
08:47<xerxesdaphat>i found pretty scant information on teh wiki (expected, considering it's so new)
08:48<Yexo>http://www.openttdcoop.org/blog/2008/10/20/complex-orders-and-improved-s-bahn-concept/ <- nice article explaining one of the possible uses
08:48<arachnid>You could make it do an ordinary 'load', and loop until it's >50% full. :P
08:48<xerxesdaphat>hmm
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>imho, the behaviour should be changed, that when, after processing conditional orders, you end up at the same order, the train should not start
08:49<arachnid>Eddi|zuHause: That would be an improvement. In fact, why restrict it to only conditional orders?
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>arachnid: that will not work, as the train will leave the station after each load operation, and then has to turn back
08:50<arachnid>Eddi|zuHause: That's what I was suggesting. :P
08:50<arachnid>I didn't say it was a _good_ idea.
08:50<arachnid>Although I'm not positive it's a bad one.
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08:53<xerxesdaphat>haha
08:53<xerxesdaphat>now the silly thing is popping in and out of a depot at lightspeed
08:54<Brianetta>Is there some kind of rule that all news articles placed on the www.openttd.org fornt page must contain the word "today"?
08:55<xerxesdaphat>Brianetta: the admin has his mail feed piped through a grep/awk filter which scans for the word `Today'
08:55<xerxesdaphat>he hasn't upgraded to gmail's labels yet
08:56<china>oh shoot
08:56<china>"Production last month: 835,000 litres of fuel oil (16% transported)"
08:57<china>maybe it's time for a new train.
08:57<china>..
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09:03<china>what kind of industry takes on plastic?
09:03<china>never seen it before.
09:07<Swallow>You're using PBI?
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>the factory in that case
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>steel, plastic and lumber, i believe
09:11<china>oh, ok.
09:13<ln->what a useful spanish course on youtube, "El techo está aislado con fibra de vidrio.", "Muchos metales están en la tabla periódica."
09:13<china>:D
09:17<ln->"Superman es el hombre de acero."
09:19<keyweed>very useful phrase. you never know when you run into superman
09:20<ln->or when you need to discuss about the insulation of the roof.
09:21<arachnid>So, are any ottd devs around to give me a hint on where to start looking if I want to write a tool that loads a savefile and generates a (max. zoom) image of the whole map (then quits)?
09:21<arachnid>I'm sure I'll find the necessary bits eventually, but a hint would be really nice. :)
09:24<davis->poke some of the @
09:25*arachnid pokes Belugas DorpsGek orudge petern ru
09:26<arachnid>er, Rubidium
09:26<arachnid>How's that? :P
09:26<@Belugas>mmh?
09:26<davis->:o
09:27<arachnid>< arachnid> So, are any ottd devs around to give me a hint on where to start looking if I want to write a tool that loads a savefile and generates a (max. zoom) image of the whole map (then quits)?
09:27<arachnid>< arachnid> I'm sure I'll find the necessary bits eventually, but a hint would be really nice. :)
09:27<keyweed>now you've done it. you woke a dev
09:27*keyweed hides.
09:27<arachnid>keyweed: Indeed. Avenge me if I perish.
09:29<davis->and the dev fell asleep again
09:29<arachnid>:/
09:29<@Belugas>frankly, i am not in the mood of teaching the internals of the game, for starters
09:29<@Belugas>then, add to the fact i'm quite buzy working at work,
09:29<arachnid>I don't require a tutorial - I was just hoping for a pointer.
09:29<@Belugas>makes it really hard for me to help you
09:29<arachnid>Even finding main() in the source is enough of a pain.
09:30<planetmaker>openttd.cpp
09:30*Belugas would check the files baring the name of the section you want to work on
09:30<arachnid>planetmaker: Just found that, actually. I presume ttd_main is called by some bootstrap infrastructure somewhere.
09:31<arachnid>Belugas: It's not really a specific section, though. Never mind.
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09:32<planetmaker>arachnid: depends upon what you want to do. If you want to get the minimap you might want to search for exactly that: grep -Ri "minimap" *
09:32<arachnid>Not the minimap - I want to render the real map.
09:32<planetmaker>otherwise search e.g. for screenshot.
09:32<planetmaker>(just random guesses)
09:32<arachnid>I doubt any existing screenshot functionality will be especially helpful - I want to write a standalone tool that loads a savegame and renders the entire thing at the point the game was saved
09:33<arachnid>But at least I can follow things through from ttd_main
09:33<planetmaker>I don't say you should use that procedure. But those might tell you exactly what you need to know.
09:33<@Belugas>gosh... that would not be just a simple tool...
09:33<arachnid>What would you suggest?
09:34<@Belugas>you need to know the map array, you need to know the grf loading, the rendering etc etc...
09:34<arachnid>Belugas: Depends how the source is structured - hence my question. In principle, it could be as simple as instantiating a 'game' instance of some sort, telling it to load a save, then asking it to render a given region. But I don't know how the source is structured
09:34<@Belugas>have fun!
09:34<planetmaker>a wrapper for a stripped-down or command-line driven Openttd which just outputs an image file - a screenshot
09:34<arachnid>Isn't the point of encapsulation to abstract that?
09:34<arachnid>planetmaker: That's more or less what I'm talking about - using ottd source, just not a full ottd client.
09:34<@Belugas>hint hint hint -> OpenTTD is only recently been added a C++ layer
09:35<@Belugas>mostly, it is a C code app
09:35<arachnid>Fine with me. You can have encapsulation without OO :)
09:35<planetmaker>well. But it wouldn't hurt to just take the client, add a command line parameter and then use that to open a specific save and dump a screen shot.
09:35<@Rubidium>openttd -g <savegame> and an a script with screenshot\nquit ?
09:35<planetmaker>something like that ^^ :)
09:35<@Rubidium>maybe with screento <location>
09:36<arachnid>And I can script that in a manner that captures the entire map?
09:36*Rubidium notes that any of the before mentioned console commands could be ficticious
09:37<@Rubidium>oh, the whole map
09:37<@Rubidium>that's even easier
09:37<@Rubidium>no need to scroll, just screenshot big
09:37<arachnid>Glad to hear it. How? :)
09:37<arachnid>okay
09:37<arachnid>I'm certainly not adverse to a solution that doesn't require any coding. ;)
09:37<arachnid>s/adverse/averse/
09:39<planetmaker>arachnid: you could 'just' add a command line option like --giant-screen which calls the giant screen proc and exits the game.
09:39<arachnid>planetmaker: Is it possible to pass a script of console commands from the command line already?
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09:40<arachnid>hm, slight problem with this, of course, is that it's liable to have issues running on a server, unless I want to run an X server just to keep it happy.
09:40<@Rubidium>arachnid: not from the console
09:40<arachnid>Okay. Guess coding is inevitable, then.
09:40<@Rubidium>though... in scripts a on_dedicated.scr with screenshot big <newline> quit
09:41<@Rubidium>and then openttd -g <savegame -D
09:41<arachnid>hm, okay
09:41<SpComb^>hmm, dedicated server screenshots?
09:41<arachnid>And that ought to avoid the headless issue, too
09:42*Rubidium again notes that it might not work; have no way of actually testing it right now
09:43<arachnid>Still, something to try. Thanks. :)
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09:50<@petern>urghel
09:50<SpComb>the OpenTTD code doesn't really abstract very much away
09:51<SpComb>but you can build it with SDL, run a dedicated server, enable the blitter on the command line, and then use the screenshot command
09:54<arachnid>SpComb: Do you know if Rubidium's suggestion will work?
09:54<arachnid>And if so, where does OTTD look for the 'scripts' directory?
09:54<arachnid>It doesn't appear to exist by default.
09:54<SpComb>never touched any OpenTTD scripts
09:55<arachnid>And when you say "enable the blitter on the command line", do you mean the ottd command line, or the OS command line?
09:56<SpComb>OpenTTD
09:57<SpComb>the dedicated server normally runs a null blitter
09:57<arachnid>I see
09:57<arachnid>Do you know what the command is to enable the blitter?
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09:58<SpComb>no, look at --help
10:04<arachnid>Hm. Any idea where ottd puts its screenshots by default? :)
10:05<arachnid>Everything seems to go fine except I can't find it.
10:08<davis->uhm
10:08<china>in the new openttd (0.6.3) with PBI and all that.
10:09<china>can i use the power station more then shipping coal to it?
10:09<china>:<
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10:11<arachnid>Hm. So the script runs, I get no error message, but I can't find a screenshot anywhere, either
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10:23<arachnid>Bah :/
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10:28<Eddi|zuHause>arachnid: in ~/.openttd or in My Documents\OpenTTD
10:28<arachnid>Hm, nothing in ~/.openttd, either
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>alternatively, wherever it finds the .cfg
10:29<arachnid>Hm. If I insert printfs in MakeScreenshot, they never even get called.
10:31<arachnid>Ditto if I run it in gdb and set a breakpoint on MakeScreenshot
10:34<SpComb>set a breakpoint in console_cmds then
10:34<arachnid>Looking at the code in screenshot.cpp, I'm guessing it doesn't get a chance to draw before the 'quit' command is run
10:35<arachnid>Hah. Now it segfaults. :P
10:36<arachnid>In Blitter_32bppOptimized::Draw
10:44<arachnid>Line 166 of 32bpp_optimized.cpp, not that that tells me much since all the locals have been optimised away
10:44<arachnid>I'm guessing it's trying to draw to something that doesn't exist due to the dedicated server thing
10:51<SmatZ>arachnid: a crash in clan trunk?
10:52<SmatZ>arachnid: the output buffer is probably too small, or you have incorrectly set width,height or pitch
10:53<SmatZ>size of buffer has to be at least height * pitch * 4 (for 32bpp blitters)
10:53<arachnid>I'm not modifying the source in any way
10:53<arachnid>Just telling it to screenshot when using the 'dedicated' video driver
10:54<arachnid>Just compiled in SDL support, but now it complains it can't find a video device when starting up. Not sure if it's possible to start it using SDL without trying to use a video device.
10:54<SmatZ>I guess the video driver hasn't been initialized, the spriteloader doesn't know you are using 32bpp blitter, or whatever :)
10:54<arachnid>yeah :/
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10:54<SmatZ>SDL_VIDEODRIVER=aalib bin/openttd
10:54<SmatZ>or so :)
10:54<Aali>damn highlight :(
10:54<arachnid>Doesn't seem to change anything
10:55<arachnid>But thanks for the place to start looking :)
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11:00*arachnid recompiles with aalib support
11:00<Aali>oh come on, did you have to say that?
11:00<arachnid>heh
11:00<Aali>:P
11:01<arachnid>If sdl had a 'null' driver option, I'd happily use that
11:01<Aali>guess i should change that highlight rule to match whole words only
11:02<Aali>arachnid: chances are, with a null driver you wont be able to get a screenshot anyway
11:02<arachnid>Aali: Well, I'm hoping I dont' get an ascii art screenshot with the aalib driver
11:02<arachnid>I suspect it only affects the output
11:02<Aali>heh
11:02<arachnid>As opposed to the ttd null driver, which causes the aforementioned segfault. :)
11:02<Aali>IIRC, its just a filter
11:03<arachnid>Oh dear lord. I now have a running aalib version of openttd
11:03<Aali>as in, its applied after all drawing is done
11:03<arachnid>yeah
11:03<@petern>it's not very playable
11:03<arachnid>(And yeah, it just looks like random dots and dashes
11:03<@petern>even with a very large terminal
11:04<arachnid>indeed
11:05<arachnid>And still no sign of my screenshot
11:06<arachnid>:(
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11:07<SmatZ>[16:54:51] <Aali> damn highlight :( <== :-D
11:08<Yexo>SmatZ: can you move FS#2404 back to trunk?
11:08<Aali>awesome..
11:09<arachnid>In fact, I don't get a screenshot even if I ask for one in the dedicated console
11:09<SmatZ>Yexo: why?
11:09<Yexo>because it's not specific for NoAI
11:10<+glx>arachnid: did you specified a blitter?
11:10<arachnid>glx: yup
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11:17<SmatZ>arachnid: I can't reproduce the crash... "bin/openttd -D -b 32bpp-optimized", screenshot, no crash
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11:18<arachnid>What renderer are you using, though?
11:19<SmatZ>arachnid: -D implies -v dedicated I think
11:19<arachnid>Hm
11:19<arachnid>Where does it put the screenshot
11:20<SmatZ>in ~/.openttd/
11:20<arachnid>I'm running the same command and getting no output I can find anywhere
11:20<arachnid>:(
11:21<SmatZ>arachnid: reading readme.txt could help you, too
11:22<arachnid>Specifically?
11:24<SmatZ>4.2) OpenTTD directories
11:24<arachnid>I know _about_ ~/.openttd (though note that section is only talking about where it finds .grf etc files)
11:26*Belugas would try running the game with the gui and request a screenshot, see if does produce one at the expected locations
11:26<@Belugas>just in case...
11:26<arachnid>I'm doing all this on a headless server. :)
11:28<@Belugas>Headless chickens
11:28<@Belugas>Dance in Circles,
11:28<@Belugas>THEY THE BLESSED!
11:28<@Belugas>Mand and wife,
11:28<@Belugas>undressed by all
11:28<@Belugas>They grafted trunks
11:29<@Belugas>in heat posseesssessssesesesed
11:31<Qball>?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i do think he is possessed ;)
11:34<Qball>Can I poke him?
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11:34<@Belugas>naaaa... it's the music... it has rhytm... the rythm of the heat! hem... no, actually, it's family and the fishing net...
11:35<Qball>Belugas: you are in heat?
11:35<@Belugas>no
11:36<@Belugas>the rythm is heat
11:36<Qball>just checking
11:39<arachnid>Hah
11:39<arachnid>Now I can get a screenshot, but it's always of nothing but ocean.
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11:40<arachnid>If I ask for a standard (instead of big) screenshot, I get this: http://crushinator.notdot.net/temp/screenshot.png
11:40<arachnid>Despite passing -g (savegame)
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11:41<+glx>full of ocean could mean loading failed
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. compiled without zlib support
11:43<arachnid>I was initially trying with Tutorial.sav
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>or wrong savegame version
11:45*arachnid reconfigures and recompiles with explicit --with-zlib
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>starting with -d 3 could tell you more about what's going on ;)
11:46<arachnid>Except that aalib overwrites everything in the terminal
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11:50<arachnid>Ah, logs go to stderr. :)
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11:52<Eddi|zuHause>i figure that aalib cannot recognise the graphical text properly, so everything is unreadable ;)
11:53<arachnid>heh
11:53<arachnid>yup
11:53<arachnid>I think it's actually just taking the screenshot before it loads stuff
11:54<arachnid>Because the logs say the save loads fine, and include stuff about vehicle routing
11:54<arachnid>And the aalib output differs depending on what savefile I load
11:55<arachnid>But there's no 'sleep' console command (at least, not a documented one)
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, could you try putting the load command in the script?
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>or just writing the screenshot command in the console after you loaded the game?
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12:04<nicfer>one question, will be removed the realistic train aceleration?
12:05<@petern>try phrasing that in english
12:05<benjamingoodger>petern: don't be cruel
12:13<china>how many veichles does openttd support?
12:15<FauxFaux>Thousands.
12:15<benjamingoodger>...by design
12:15<benjamingoodger>in practise it is limited by your computer's memory and CPU, particularly for trains
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12:16<china>i have 2600 trucks now
12:16<FauxFaux>I believe I've been in a game with a thousand trains before.
12:16<FauxFaux><3
12:16<china>and i dont want it to end. :)
12:16<FauxFaux>Iirc something is limited at 5000.
12:16<china>oh, ok
12:17<china>im really surprised that my old p3 server does the huge maps without any trouble
12:17<benjamingoodger>is it a binary power?
12:17<china>and im starting on the zellepiners
12:17<china>zeppeliners*
12:18*china sends gigatons of coal
12:18<china>the funny thing is, the game is starting to get very realistic money-wise
12:18<benjamingoodger>oh?
12:18<china>i used to work with higher impoexpo treatys, and i can see the connection. ;)
12:19<benjamingoodger>ah
12:20<nicfer>more than 9000?
12:21<benjamingoodger>that's "petagrams" btw :P
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>china: i believe the limit is 5000 vehicles per type (truck, train, aircraft, ship)
12:22<SmatZ>nicfer: no, it won't be removed. Why should it?
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: because it uses the dreaded r-word :p
12:23<SmatZ>ah... so a joke :)
12:24<china>ok
12:24<china>the zeppeliners sucked
12:24<china>they cant go +
12:24<china>:<
12:25<china>they loose 40.000 on the little way to the coal mine, and get payed in hald.
12:25<china>-d+f
12:26<china>make that 90.000
12:26<benjamingoodger>hmm
12:26<benjamingoodger>I think they're more for passengers :)
12:27<gregor>is it possible to cheat on ottd, e.g. getting much money?
12:27<china>benjamingoodger: well, there is a modell thats exclusively for coal
12:27<benjamingoodger>gregor: press ctrl-alt-c and read it thoroughly
12:27<china>tho refittable to all but passengers
12:28<benjamingoodger>unfortunately it comes only in £10,000,000 amounts
12:28<nicfer>SmatZ: because it's... *realistic*
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12:28<benjamingoodger>china: ah.... I've not done a great deal with air in ttd. I can't seem to make the buggers turn a profit
12:29<china>same here
12:29<china>:<
12:30<benjamingoodger>it should be renamed "train tycoon deluxe"
12:30<nicfer>well, the best option would be to let newgrf designers define the acceleration
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12:31<benjamingoodger>nicfer: the best option is to let designers specify the properties of their engines and allow the system to do it for them
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12:41<gregor>Also possible to build many vehicles at one time?
12:41<@Belugas>no. one at a time, only
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13:23<Wolf01>hello
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14:01<ln->end of discussion
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14:06<ln->Wolf01: do you need to say 'night every time you leave?
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14:07<Wolf01>I'm used to greet when I enter or leave a channel, and 'night stays for good night
14:08<dihedral>ln-: some people have the politeness to
14:08<dihedral>and if it are people who actually hang around here more often, it's quite nice
14:08<dihedral>shows a social side ;-)
14:08-!-Qball [~qball@ipd50a4125.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd
14:09<ln->dihedral: but if everyone did that, it would generate a lot of noise.
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14:09<ln->i mean, if everyone did that every time they join or leave.
14:09<dihedral>ln- if you comment each time it's more annoying than Wolf01 greeting
14:09-!-Hirundo [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
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14:10<ln->i'm an annoying person.
14:11<Aali>well, this not an off-topic channel, idle conversation does not belong here (technically)
14:11<Aali>*this is
14:12<Aali>and announcing your arrival/departure is usually not okay on IRC anyways
14:13<dihedral>Aali, it depends who and where
14:13<Aali>and how :)
14:13<dihedral>i.e. if yorick does it, it's not ok
14:13<Aali>automated scripts are lame
14:13<+glx>but it's yorick ;)
14:13<dihedral>it's not automated
14:13<Aali>i know
14:13<Antdovu>this message is automated
14:13<ln->politeness is fine, but when exactly the same strings are used each and every time, it's more like an automated reflex than a polite greeting.
14:13<dihedral>and when Wolf01 does it... heck - he's been around for a long time
14:14<Aali>if it had been, it wouldn't be in a grey area
14:14<Aali>but i say it is, and we should allow it :P
14:14<dihedral>and ln- constantly having nothing better to say than all his wining about that someone is doing something that does not match his liking....
14:14<dihedral>that is more annoying than Wolf01's tendency to greet
14:15<@Belugas>FAR MORE
14:15<@Belugas>farth more
14:16<ln->hell
14:16<ln->o
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14:17<ln->may i add that i have absolutely nothing else to complain about things Wolf01 has done or said.
14:18<dihedral>you should have less to moan about in general :-P
14:18-!-eQualizer [~lauri@dyn196-117.spy.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
14:18<dihedral>to me the nick 'ln' does not represent anything else than complaints and unhelpful chatter
14:18<@Belugas>dih: empty barrels are the loudest ;)
14:19<dihedral>:-P
14:19<@Belugas>to me, the nick ln is on ignore. and life is sweet and kind
14:19-!-ln- is now known as ln
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14:20<ln>dihedral: thanks, i appreciate that.
14:21<dihedral>ln: that was a subtle hint - you might wanna work on your attitude :-P
14:21<dihedral>and if your attitude is a lot brighter generally, then you might want to share that with us :-P
14:21*dihedral give ln a hug :-P
14:22<ccfreak2k>Hey
14:22<ccfreak2k>I just thought I'd tell you guys that I'm here.
14:22<ccfreak2k>And that I'm going to go to other channels now.
14:22<Antdovu>can't handle a little man love?
14:23<ln>dihedral: my attitude is far from perfect in general, too, but over here it's shaped by the fact that nothing on-topic i say makes any difference.
14:23<dihedral>ccfreak2k, now you just do that to annoy people, and that is not fun
14:23<dihedral>nor genuine
14:23<ccfreak2k>It is for me.
14:23<ln>ccfreak2k: thank you for letting us know. see you soon again!
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14:25<ln>hello
14:27*benjamingoodger rejoins conversation
14:27<benjamingoodger>*blink*
14:27*ln welcomes benjamingoodger back to conversation
14:28<benjamingoodger>why, thank you, ln! how polite. if more people were that polite, we'd all be better off
14:29<benjamingoodger>hmm
14:29<ln>we sure would! now, would you like to have a cup of tea?
14:29*dihedral extends his ignorelist a little :-P
14:29<benjamingoodger>reading up at the top, it really irritates me when people to tell me I have an attitude problem
14:29<Antdovu>ln: what about biscuits?
14:30<benjamingoodger>what they're actually saying is that they dislike my personality, and would like me to change it, rather than just learning to tolerate it
14:30<dihedral>benjamingoodger, nobody's even talking to you!
14:30<dihedral>at least not up there
14:30<benjamingoodger>dihedral: I'm "sympathising"
14:30<benjamingoodger>it's a new concept I have been introduced to recently, that I am trialling
14:30<dihedral>lol
14:31<benjamingoodger>ln: I apologise for not replying earlier. I try to avoid caffeine, but would be delighted with a glass of fruit juice. may I offer you a garibaldi?
14:32-!-Fuco [dota.keys@wireless-100.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Quit: Quit]
14:33<benjamingoodger>hmm
14:33<benjamingoodger>I'm about to be flamed, aren't I
14:34<Antdovu>they are boiling inside
14:34<ln>benjamingoodger: a glass of fruit juice will be sent directly you in a bottle by the sea.
14:34<Antdovu>trying to make tea
14:34<benjamingoodger>ln: ah, Royal Mail. excellent, I shall await its arrival within six to eight months
14:36<china>yep
14:36<china>thats it
14:36<china>the vechicle limit is 5000
14:36<china>at least per type
14:36<china>5000 coal trucks
14:37<ln>china: dear sir, you have forgotten to use an apostrophe in your phrase "thats it".
14:37<china>~10 thats minus.
14:37<china>`,´ or '?
14:37<dihedral>, <- komma
14:37<ln>china: '
14:38<dihedral>that,s <- looks very wrong
14:38<china>ah, thank you.
14:38<dihedral>and ln: you've dont it again
14:38<@Belugas>-t+e
14:38<china>i really need to learn things like that.
14:38<dihedral>and also, ln, you forgot an entire word in you last full sentence
14:38<china>the ' and the ´ to the ` fo da shizzle.
14:39<benjamingoodger>¬.¬
14:39<ccfreak2k>china, 5000 trucks per train.
14:39<ccfreak2k>?
14:40<china>no, 5000 trucks per map, 5000 trains, 5000 airvechicelslslc, and so on.
14:40<benjamingoodger>you could barely build a station big enough throughout the whole map
14:42<dihedral>china, what version are you playing?
14:42<china>latest, with newgrf stuff thingy
14:42<dihedral>and are those vehicles actually moving
14:42<china>yes
14:42<dihedral>latest is not a correct answer
14:42<china>oh
14:42<china>hold on.
14:42<china>0.6.3
14:42<dihedral>stable build, would you care to try it with a nightly?
14:43<china>with a what?
14:43<dihedral>visit openttd.org
14:43<china>i struggled all night to get my server up
14:43<china>ok
14:43<dihedral>in the upper left corner of the page you have 'download stable' and 'download nightly'
14:43<china>oh!
14:44<Antdovu>nightly means that you may play it only at night
14:44<china>o,o
14:44<dihedral>actually
14:44<dihedral>dont
14:44<dihedral>5000 is correct
14:44<dihedral>[20:44] <dihedral> !rcon patch max_trains
14:44<dihedral>[20:44] <Mrs_Console> dihedral: Current value for 'max_trains' is: '500' (min: 0, max: 5000)
14:45<china>the money counter is going bananas, though
14:45<Aali>is that a hard limit?
14:45<china>that may be something somebody should fix
14:45<dihedral>Aali, no idea
14:45<Aali>probably not
14:45<dihedral>china, it's not broken
14:45<china>all the five thousand coal trucks is actually being used at the moment
14:45<china>well
14:45<dihedral>and that is 5k per company
14:45<china>it gives all kinds of numbers in periods
14:45<china>and ######
14:45<dihedral>per vehicle type
14:46<dihedral>well - then take a screenshot, and upload it with a sav game to bugs.openttd.org ;-)
14:46<china>will do
14:46<china>thanks
14:47<china>$840,501,822
14:47<china>i wonder what the top record is
14:48<dihedral>thats just 420 pounds sterling....
14:48<dihedral>:-P
14:48<dihedral>420 mio :-P
14:48<china>,/.
14:48<china>UK uses . right?
14:48<dihedral>as what?
14:48<china>and , for decimals
14:48<dihedral>no
14:49<china>to separate zeroes in greater numbers
14:49<dihedral>, for thousands and . for decimals
14:49<china>whatever the word may be
14:49<china>ah.
14:49<benjamingoodger>actually it's spaces for thousands now
14:49<dihedral>is it?
14:49<dihedral>when was that changed?
14:49<benjamingoodger>e.g. 77 888 999.2
14:49<benjamingoodger>er
14:49<benjamingoodger>it's one of those things that's only officially true
14:49<china>i dont really know how it works here in sweden, but i use . for thousands (or spaces) and , for decimal
14:49<dihedral>it was , when i had to write invoices last time
14:50<benjamingoodger>commas for thousands are still used informally
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14:50<benjamingoodger>china: I'm planning to move to sweden ^^
14:50<china>a piece of the swedish mouth2mouth language is to actually say "two comma five" for 2,5, for instance.
14:50<china>benjamingoodger: do you need an apartment?
14:50<dihedral>very nice country indeed
14:50<benjamingoodger>it won't be for a few years
14:50<dihedral>hehe
14:50<china>im moving after the new year has passed.
14:50<china>ok
14:50<benjamingoodger>I'm going to university first ^^
14:51<china>where do you live now?
14:51<dihedral>benjamingoodger, where to in that big country
14:51<benjamingoodger>china: in the US and UK, we say "two point five" (2.5)
14:51<benjamingoodger>I live in the UK
14:51<china>i have apartments in both sweden and UK, and im selling both of to move to either japan or vegas.
14:51<china>:>
14:51<china>ok
14:51<china>ooh.
14:51<benjamingoodger>dihedral: dunno, norrkoping looks nice though
14:51<dihedral>:-)
14:51<Aali>benjamingoodger: welcome to the neighbourhood
14:52<dihedral>"i cannot remember the town name, something with ...oping" :-P
14:52<china>benjamingoodger: i have an ap. at earls court in london.
14:52<china>haha
14:52<china>norrkoping is nice
14:52<benjamingoodger>Aali: you live in norrkoping?
14:52<china>im in vaxjo right now.
14:52<Aali>i do
14:52<benjamingoodger>aha
14:52<china>Aali: hej!
14:52<benjamingoodger>yes, what he said
14:52<dihedral>i spent 6 months near vetlanda
14:52<Aali>china: Hej svej leverpastej!
14:52<dihedral>holsby to be precise
14:52<ln>hej, här kan man använda "ö" också, utf-8 säger topicen.
14:53<china>whöhöö!
14:53<dihedral>lol
14:53<benjamingoodger>hürråh
14:53<china>by the way, you swedes who wanna be professional in openttd - litterally - i have some books you should read
14:53*china just came from the library
14:53<benjamingoodger>heheh
14:54<dihedral>ln- you do realize that you are encouraging people to speak a different langauage in this channel?
14:54<china>gunnar björksten - lönsamhet och likviditet & rolf back - marknadsföring
14:54<china>:>
14:54<benjamingoodger>dihedral: I shouldn't think he cares too much
14:55<dihedral>benjamingoodger, ln is the one to complain as soon as someone speaks another language usually
14:55<ln>dihedral: maybe, but the topic doesn't say anything about a preferred language.
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>nobody here cares about this english only rule :p
14:55<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, no of course not - just ln complaining is what i was getting at :-P
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>a rule does not need to be in the topic
14:55<china>oh crap
14:55<dihedral>quite ironic actually
14:55<china>i made a big doodoo.
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>go to the toilet next time
14:55<china>i built a big ass airport, and then i accidently removed it. guess what the town people say when im trying to build it now. :(
14:56<benjamingoodger>vere, fakte ni ne devas koni kiun lingvon ni parolas
14:56<Aali>thats why god invented bribing
14:56<china>doesnt work on small ass cities. :(
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>build trees
14:56<benjamingoodger>china: plant colossal numbers of trees
14:56<Aali>thats why ottd's slightly flawed game mechanics invented treebribing
14:56<benjamingoodger>heheheh
14:57<ln>dihedral: do you feel uneasy or confused about "different languages"?
14:57<china>that works?
14:57<china>:o
14:57<china>haha
14:57<dihedral>ln: i feel uneasy about you!
14:57<china>i had no idea of that
14:57<benjamingoodger>:D
14:57<china>i have been playing for years and years, and i didnt have any idea of it. ;)
14:58<benjamingoodger>currently it's a toss-up between canterbury and sweden...I may end up living in both
14:58<Aali>killing trees make them sad, planting trees can make them semi-happy again
14:58<Aali>so you can always build stations
14:58<dihedral>Aali, semi-happy = good...
14:58<dihedral>that is the best standing you'll get for planting trees
14:58<benjamingoodger>canterbury is unpolluted and wealthy, but sweden is the nearest equivalent to a socialist paradise in my view
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>i know that either the original TT box or the manual said something about building trees around your stations, but it was extremely vague
14:59<benjamingoodger>dihedral: that's good enough to build stuff...
14:59<Aali>dihedral: indeed, which isn't perfect, but enough for building stations
14:59<dihedral>yep
14:59<dihedral>:-P
14:59<dihedral>just cannot remove a church with it :-P
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15:00<Prof_Frink>Of course, it's easier in multiplayer.
15:00<Prof_Frink>You can treebribe with one free tile and a friend.
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15:00<dihedral>hello Wolf01
15:00<Wolf01>:|
15:01<benjamingoodger>*blink*
15:01<dihedral>;-)
15:02<Wolf01>I greet only when I enter or leave, not when my connection is reset by power faults
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15:02<Prof_Frink>benjamingoodger: Don't blink.
15:02<benjamingoodger>Prof_Frink: don't quote doctor who
15:02<Prof_Frink>Don't look away, don't turn around, and don't blink.
15:02<benjamingoodger>FAIL
15:02<benjamingoodger>:D
15:03<Antdovu>don't run around and desert me ;)
15:03<benjamingoodger>hm?
15:04<@Belugas>don't talk to strangers
15:04*dihedral hugs Belugas
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15:04*Belugas searches that Ronnie James Dio song
15:05<Antdovu> Never gonna make you cry
15:05<benjamingoodger>ho hum
15:05<benjamingoodger>gah...
15:06<benjamingoodger>why can't I write longer chapters?
15:06<@Belugas>found it!!
15:06<@Belugas>yeah for phone's 4gig ^_^
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15:08<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: count the shadows
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15:08<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: 3.
15:09<Prof_Frink>Belugas: Are you my mummy?
15:10<benjamingoodger>¬.¬
15:10<benjamingoodger>I told you not to quote doctor who :P
15:10<china>bah
15:10<china>how big fuck loads of trees does the town want :<
15:11<benjamingoodger>an area about 6x6 squares is my choice
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15:11<china>i just spent 100 grand on covering the whole town with trees
15:11<china>:<
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>china: you have to make sure that there are no trees on those tiles already
15:12<china>which tiles?
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>the tiles where you build the trees
15:12-!-Mark_ is now known as Mark
15:13<china>it worked!
15:13<china>span.
15:13<china>spanx*
15:13<china>i really, really hate trees.
15:15<Antdovu>idea: "areas" in addition to actual towns/cities, etc that would not have any buildings or roads
15:16<Antdovu>but act just like them otherwise
15:16<china>:>
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what you just said
15:17<benjamingoodger>yes
15:17<benjamingoodger>neither do I
15:17<Antdovu>kind of a rural area?
15:18<Antdovu>it has a name & most other attributes of a town but no buildings
15:18<Antdovu>and no roads
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>in what way would that be an addition to gameplay?
15:19<Antdovu>possible to play without any towns?
15:19<benjamingoodger>it would make things less realistic!
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>Antdovu: how about just destroying everything in the town? people do that often enough...
15:19*china builds an interstellar line
15:20<china>is it just me? or is 100+ station lines with kilometer long trains just ..awesome.
15:20<benjamingoodger>no, no
15:20<benjamingoodger>it is awesome
15:21<Antdovu>Eddi|zuHause: you would have to keep destroying everything
15:21<benjamingoodger>Antdovu: just build over the entire town
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>no, when you destroy the central road tile, they don't rebuild it
15:22<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: I thought you had to leave the tile, but block it in so it can't expand
15:22<@Belugas>Prof_Frink, i doubt i'm a mummy, even more yours. But... in Egypt, where the chains are on...
15:22<Antdovu>I am pretty sure I have done that plenty of times without
15:23<Antdovu>it still grows back if you just erase it
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15:23<china>what's your personal record on a single train's profit?
15:23<Antdovu>inflation...
15:24<china>:D
15:24<china>hey
15:24<Prof_Frink>china: Buffer overflow.
15:24<china>im new to this thing, so: i have a train line that closes in a circle. it contains over 100 stations. do i dare to use two trains on the same line?
15:25<Antdovu>I wouldn't do that
15:25<china>if one gets holded, will the otherone kill it from behind eventually?
15:25<china>ok
15:25<Antdovu>I build 1 train per game max
15:25<china>per -game-? :D
15:25<benjamingoodger>china: signals are the key to this sort of thing
15:25<Antdovu>a bus as well if I am feeling adventurous
15:25<china>benjamingoodger: how does one use signals on a single track - i have never tried it.
15:25<china>Antdovu: haha, killer. :)
15:26<benjamingoodger>you just put them at the entrance and exit to each station
15:26<china>oh,
15:26<china>ooh!
15:27<benjamingoodger>it might be very inefficient
15:27<benjamingoodger>but the trains will not collide.
15:27<china>it will work like a wall, i guess
15:27<benjamingoodger>yes, they won't cross the signals whatsoever
15:28<china>though
15:28<china>if the rhytm will be un-even
15:28<china>they will eventually tail each other
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>you can use a timetable
15:28<china>and train number two will get 0 passengers
15:28<china>a what. :o
15:28<+glx><Antdovu> Eddi|.zuHause: you would have to keep destroying everything <-- just remove the road tile under town name
15:28<china>oh shit this train is a moneymaker.
15:28<china>:D
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>glx: that's what i said, but they wouldn't believe me... ;)
15:29<benjamingoodger>"tidsplan"
15:29<china>OH
15:29<china>god.
15:29<benjamingoodger>that way they all stay in sync
15:29<china>i found the transparency for trees
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15:30<china>god, thank you for development.
15:30<benjamingoodger>:)
15:30<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: but we know what we are talking about ;)
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what i'm talking about, i just repeat random phrases that i picked up in this channel
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>like babyottd :p
15:31<benjamingoodger>glx: if you remove the central road tile, but nothing else, does the town continue growing?
15:31<+glx>no it can't grow if there's no road under town name
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: the town growth algorithm goes from the central road tile along the roads until it finds a place that has no house/road yet. if the road tile is destroyed, it will always fail to find such a place
15:32<benjamingoodger>ah
15:32<china>holy cow what a moneymaker
15:33<china>£140-200k per station
15:33<benjamingoodger>is this affected by installing a new-style bus/tram station on that tile?
15:33<china>and its not even 30 seconds between
15:33<china>thats a good one so early in the game.
15:33<china>whohoo
15:33<benjamingoodger>passagerare enbart?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: i'd say no.
15:34*benjamingoodger hopes to learn swedish by reverse-engineering the output of google translate
15:34<china>benjamingoodger: yes.
15:34<benjamingoodger>china: amazing
15:34<Aali>err
15:34<Antdovu>I suggest you learn reverse polish notation ;)
15:34<benjamingoodger>I can't do passenger services correctly :P
15:34<china>though, im noticing the passenger rate is going down
15:34<Aali>i've seen towns grow out from nothing
15:34<china>so the high profit is temporary
15:34<benjamingoodger>hmm
15:35<Aali>the only way to stop it is to buy some land under the sign
15:35<Aali>5x5 tiles should be enough
15:35<china>steven seagal on tv. <3
15:35<benjamingoodger>china: the passenger number is proportional to the proximity (nearness) of passenger-creating buildings
15:36<benjamingoodger>try moving your stations toward the city centre if possible
15:36<china>the biggest station (both train, bus and helicopter pad) has 2400 people
15:36<china>and the town aint that big
15:36<benjamingoodger>alternatively, you could try integrating the train system with a bus network
15:36<china>:)
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15:39<china>end of year
15:39<china>four million profit for the train.
15:39<china>not bad.
15:39<benjamingoodger>:)
15:39<benjamingoodger>wait
15:39<benjamingoodger>what currency is that?
15:39<china>dollars
15:39<benjamingoodger>aha
15:39<benjamingoodger>good
15:40<benjamingoodger>I thought you were going to say 4 million SEK :P
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>game balance is quite far off...
15:41<china>balance?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>exactly :p
15:43<Antdovu>yeah, we need a year 2008 mod -- your company value can only go down
15:44<china>:D
15:44<Antdovu>but you will be able to apply for a bailout
15:44<china>well
15:44<china>i have many ideas to put in here
15:44<china>i would like to see more options around the borrowing bit
15:44<china>like differ interests
15:44<china>financial crisis
15:44<china>presidential changes
15:44<china>:D
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15:50<china>is zeppeliners worth the money for passengers?
15:50<china>30 passengers per $790,000
15:50<Antdovu>no, you can shoot them down with a shotgun
15:50<china>quite expencive.
15:51<Sacro>Antdovu: flaming arrow is prettier
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15:51<Antdovu>depends on the local customs
15:52<china>btw
15:52<Antdovu>in some places people just trough a bunch of perl at them
15:52<Antdovu>throw*
15:52<benjamingoodger>heheh
15:52<china>i have sent all my trucks to depos, since i want to remove everyone of them
15:52<china>is there a better way then clicking delete in every depot?
15:52<Antdovu>click "sell all" in every depot
15:53<china>it's alot of depots :<
15:53<Antdovu>shouldn't have built that many :P
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15:55<benjamingoodger>¬.¬
15:56<Aali>vehicle console commands is your friend
15:57<ln>hello to everyone who has joined while i was away
15:57<Aali>'road all sell', and poof, they're gone
15:57<Aali>disclaimer: requires a patched client :)
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16:00<china>bah
16:00<china>i overdid it
16:00<china>im redooing the map
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16:12<@Belugas>marphffff...
16:13<@Belugas>et re merde
16:16<Vikthor>Is it possible to set vehicle capacity to zero using either callback 36 or 15?
16:16<frosch123>yes, 15
16:17<frosch123>see serbian tram set, which offers refitting a tram with an additional trailer
16:20<Vikthor>Ok, I will take a look, because for me when I try to set capacity of first vehicle to zero after a refit, it gets stuck on the last cargo type and capacity it was before the refit
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16:30<frosch123>hmm, ok, my hint was wrong
16:31<frosch123>the non-present trailer also has a capacity
16:31<china>mrfrenzy: o/
16:33<Wolf01>'night to all but ln ;)
16:33<frosch123>night Wolf01
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16:34<frosch123>Vikthor: I am a bit tired currently, but the code looks buggy :)
16:34<Vikthor>hmm shall I try to file a bug report?
16:34<frosch123>i.e. when cb 15 returns 0, the capacity is not added to the total capacity, but the capacity of the articulated part stays with its previous value
16:35<Vikthor>yeah, thats exactly wthat is happening with my grf
16:38<mrfrenzy>hi china ;)
16:42<Qball>china where?
16:42<china>Qball: what?
16:42<frosch123>Vikthor: I guess the bug applies to road vehicles and trains. Ships and aircraft should work. Though it is not very useful for them :)
16:42<china>mrfrenzy: :>
16:42<Qball>aah nickname
16:44<Vikthor>frosch123: Shall I file a bug or you will handle it right away?
16:44<china>mrfrenzy: you sneaky bastard.
16:44<china>du bara sitter och väntar på stålar ju
16:44*china använder alla pengar hela tiden
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16:44<frosch123>Vikthor: I guess I can handle it tomorrow
16:45<Vikthor>so no need for a bug report, or shall I file anyway to increase your count of closed bugs ? :)
16:45<Antdovu>Δεν καταλαβαίνω τι λέτε
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16:47<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: OK, the town where I demolished all the roads near the centre has rebuilt and is expanding, the town where I put diagonal track around the centre tile but left that there is dying.
16:48<frosch123>Vikthor: If you can compile, you might want to test http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/FixZeroCapacity.diff
16:49<china>how can i get a steel mill that "currently doesnt accept iron ore" to accept iron ore again?
16:49<frosch123>Though I have no clue, why that test was added in the first place
16:49<china>:<
16:49<china>thats the only reason i get.
16:49<Vikthor>Yes I can, I will try it
16:49<frosch123>china: by reading the "readme" of the industry grf you are using
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16:59*Belugas goes out of the office, to see NIN!
16:59<@Belugas>big night
16:59<@Belugas>see yu all
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16:59<frosch123>night Belugas
17:00<ln>bye, Belugas
17:00<ln>hello, Sacro
17:00*frosch123 should also leave
17:00<Sacro>hi ln
17:00<frosch123>night
17:00<Vikthor>night
17:00<ln>night, frosch123
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17:05<gregor>http://paste.openttd.org full of spam :/
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>so what?
17:07<Antdovu>The connection was refused when attempting to contact paste.openttd.org.
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17:12<DASPRiD>hey, can someone help me with grf here?
17:12<Aali>no
17:13<dAvis->lol
17:13<Antdovu>enlarge your cHaR* today!
17:14<Aali>you think thats funny?
17:14<Antdovu>no :(
17:14<Aali>with the information he provided, there's no way i could help him
17:14<Aali>Antdovu: not you
17:15<DASPRiD>I just need some help regarding the code of grfcodec
17:15<Aali>just ask what you want to ask
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>no need to ask, we are clearly psychic enough to find that out on our own
17:16<DASPRiD>well I have multiple questions, first is: outbufsize = 0L + sx * sy + 8; // what does the 0L in this equatation mean?
17:17<DASPRiD>Eddi|zuHause, kewl :X
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>means that the constant 0 is to be treated as a long int
17:17<Osai>j
17:17<Aali>^ what he said
17:17<Antdovu>k
17:18<DASPRiD>Eddi|zuHause, ah so... when translating that to a high level language, i can just skip the "0L +" ?
17:19<Yexo>maybe, but it might be an obscure way to cast sx * sy before multiplying
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not even sure that this code does what this person wanted it to do
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>but yeah, i'd just cast sx and sy
17:19<DASPRiD>Eddi|zuHause, well, grfcodec works, doesnt it? ;)
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>that might as well just be a coincidence :p
17:20<DASPRiD>hehe
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>like, a compiler specific interpretation of the code
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm not that deep in the c specification to really decide that
17:20<DASPRiD>probably DaleStan knows :x
17:21<Ammler>grfcodec isn't the only software, which can read grfs, btw.
17:21<Ammler>maybe you should also take a look to openttd source :P
17:21<Antdovu>in c it would definitely be done with long integers from 0L on
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>Antdovu: well, if i were to evaluate that expression, i'd have a sum with 3 operands, where the first one is long, and the others get cast to long
17:22<Antdovu>that's how I see it as well
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>but the cast of the operand sx*sy would be done a posteriori
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17:23<Antdovu>that's probably intentions vs code?
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>so i sx and sy were 8 bit, the result of the 8 bit operation may overflow before being cast to long
17:23<DASPRiD>probably i should just try to understand what http://www.ttdpatch.net/grfcodec/grf.html describes :)
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>but really, i don't know the C specification that well
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17:24<Antdovu>try it?
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17:24<Eddi|zuHause>did you listen to anything i said?
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>the compiler could still just coincidently do things correctly
17:25<DASPRiD>i listened! :x
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>i was talking to Antdovu :p
17:25<Antdovu>that is just a simple example of a very important detail
17:25<Antdovu>I am sure it would be done correctly in any reasonable compiler
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>Antdovu: large portions of the C specification just say "the behaviour in that case is undefined"
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17:27<Eddi|zuHause>which tells the compiler builder: "you can do whatever you like here." (in most cases, that are parts where optimisations can be done)
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>and one such optimisations might be, if the "strict" code would say:
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>1) calculate 15 bit result of 8bit*8bit operation
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>2) clear out top 7 bits to 8bit again
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>3) cast to 32bit
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>the optimisation here could be to leave out step 2
17:28<ln>00:23 < Eddi|zuHause> so i sx and sy were 8 bit, the result of the 8 bit operation may overflow before being cast to long <--- let's not forget about the term integer promotion
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>but i need to say again, i don't know what the specification says
17:30<Antdovu>Integer Promotions Integer types smaller than int are promoted when an operation is performed on them. If all values of the original type can be represented as an int, the value of the smaller type is converted to an int; otherwise, it is converted to an unsigned int.
17:31<Antdovu>=> 0L is useless
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18:32<Ammler>why does the "Heavy Equipment Set" not work in ttdpatch?
18:36<Ammler>I hope it is not something like the issue with opengfx some time ago...
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19:24<ln>'night
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19:29<SmoovTruck>minor website bug... frontpage shows a screenshot thumbnail... clicking on it, takes me to the screenshots page... the screenshot shown in the thumbnail, isn't found on the page
19:29<benjamingoodger>:D
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19:54<DASPRiD>Hey, probably someone of you can help: When have a byte (hex: 0D), and interpret it as signed int, what should I get?
19:54<SmatZ>13
19:55<DASPRiD>damn :x
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19:55<SmatZ>why?
19:56<DASPRiD>means the grf format definition can't be right
19:56<DASPRiD>it's about the compression
19:56<DASPRiD>when $byte & 1, it follows a repeated chunk, but 13 is the very first byte of the data stream, which means there can't be bytes before to repeat
20:00<xerxesdaphat>what compression format do they use?
20:01<SmatZ>sorry, I don't really understand your problem - but yes, it is possible to force the decoder to "seek" before the beginning of decoded stream
20:01<DASPRiD>some variation of LZ77
20:02<DASPRiD>SmatZ, a) it defiens an offset of 1200, but we are only at byte position 200 yet, b) the grccodec doesn't "support" seeking to a previous sprite stream
20:03<xerxesdaphat>heh my saturday morning exam is on stuff similar to this
20:03<xerxesdaphat>i think the case study is LZW though :P
20:04<SmatZ>DASPRiD: neither OTTD would decode such sprite
20:04<DASPRiD>right
20:05<SmatZ>is it possible you mistaked the byte order in word? (big / little endian)
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20:06<SmatZ>big endian is used
20:06<DASPRiD>is big endian default machine order on pc?
20:07<SmatZ>no
20:07<DASPRiD>oh ^^
20:07<SmatZ>:)
20:07<DASPRiD>that could then actually lead to some problems ;)
20:08<DASPRiD>why does GRF use big endian anyway? :X
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20:08<SmatZ>I don't know, and I don't know who is responsible for it :)
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20:09<xerxesdaphat>D0 is 208
20:09<Ammler>I would say CS
20:09<SmatZ>xerxesdaphat: you are swapping nibbles, not bytes :)
20:10<xerxesdaphat>you're right -- i think i'm correct if i'm using an alpha processor though
20:10<SmatZ>00 0D = 13 in BE, but 3328 in BE
20:10<SmatZ>xerxesdaphat: I don't know :-x probably you are, when you say so :)
20:11<DASPRiD>are you actually sure about the big endian thingy?
20:11<SmatZ>hehe
20:11<+glx><SmatZ> 00 0D = 13 in BE, but 3328 in BE <-- good way to confuse people :)
20:11<SmatZ>00 0D = 13 in BE, but 3328 in LE
20:11<SmatZ>indeed :)
20:11<DASPRiD>SmatZ, because
20:11<DASPRiD>http://www.ttdpatch.net/grfcodec/grf.html
20:11<DASPRiD>here is nothing written about the byte order
20:12<vraa>does anyone know if openttd is multi threaded?
20:12<+glx>it isn't
20:12<+glx>well it is but only for saving
20:12<vraa>is there any work being done to make it so? because it seems like it could be parallelized
20:12<+glx>it can't
20:13<vraa>oh that sucks
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20:13<+glx>everything rely on a precise order
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20:13<DASPRiD>SmatZ, also i get quite strange results in big endian, which don't fit to the result grfcodec gives
20:13<xerxesdaphat>static void GRFInfo(byte *buf, int len)
20:13<xerxesdaphat>{
20:13<xerxesdaphat> /* <08> <version> <grf-id> <name> <info>
20:13<xerxesdaphat> *
20:13<xerxesdaphat> * B version newgrf version, currently 06
20:13<xerxesdaphat> * 4*B grf-id globally unique ID of this .grf file
20:13<xerxesdaphat> * S name name of this .grf set
20:13<xerxesdaphat> * S info string describing the set, and e.g. author and copyright */
20:13<xerxesdaphat> /* TODO: Check version. (We should have own versioning done somehow.) */
20:13<xerxesdaphat> uint8 version;
20:14<xerxesdaphat> uint32 grfid;
20:14<xerxesdaphat> const char *name;
20:14<xerxesdaphat> const char *info;
20:14<xerxesdaphat> check_length(len, 9, "GRFInfo");
20:14<xerxesdaphat> version = buf[1];
20:14<xerxesdaphat> /* this is de facto big endian - grf_load_dword() unsuitable */
20:14<xerxesdaphat> grfid = buf[2] << 24 | buf[3] << 16 | buf[4] << 8 | buf[5];
20:14<xerxesdaphat> name = (const char*)(buf + 6);
20:14<+glx>xerxesdaphat: stop NOW
20:14<xerxesdaphat> info = name + strlen(name) + 1;
20:14<xerxesdaphat> _cur_grffile->grfid = grfid;
20:14<xerxesdaphat>_cur_grffile->flags= 0x0001; /* set active flag */
20:14<DASPRiD>glx, he can't he pasted yet
20:14<xerxesdaphat> DEBUG(grf, 1) ("[%s] Loaded GRFv%d set %08lx - %s:\n%s\n",
20:14<+glx>@kick xerxesdaphat
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20:15<SmatZ>DASPRiD: Bits 0 to 2 are the high bits of an offset, with the low bits being in the next byte.
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20:15<DASPRiD>SmatZ, i know that, cause i read that ;)
20:15<DASPRiD>i even use the shifting described there
20:15<SmatZ>ok :)
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20:16<SmatZ>DASPRiD: (But "code" must be a signed char, of course.) is it signed in your code?
20:16<DASPRiD>SmatZ, it always results in 13, independent of signed or unsigned
20:17<SmatZ>DASPRiD: why do you think it is unsigned data?
20:17<DASPRiD>?
20:17<SmatZ>errrrrrrr compressed data?
20:17<DASPRiD>i dont
20:17<DASPRiD>ah
20:17<DASPRiD>because 13 & 1 = 1
20:17<DASPRiD>which means the first bit is set
20:17<SmatZ>The high bit of the code shows whether this is a verbatim chunk (not set) or a repetition of earlier data (set).
20:17<DASPRiD>right
20:17<SmatZ>first bit = code & 0x80
20:17<DASPRiD>uhm
20:17<SmatZ>errr high bit
20:17<SmatZ>mmm I should go to bed
20:17<DASPRiD>code & 80....
20:18<DASPRiD>ok
20:18<SmatZ>80(dec) != 0x80 (hex)
20:18<DASPRiD>yeah
20:18<DASPRiD>that could actually be my bug :)
20:18<SmatZ>:-D
20:20<DASPRiD>SmatZ, ok probably you can help me a bit further
20:20<DASPRiD>unsigned long length = -(code >> 3);
20:21<DASPRiD>i don't have unsigned integers in php, so length results in a negativ number
20:21<SmatZ>I don't know php :-x
20:21<SmatZ>but code should be negative
20:21<SmatZ>if it is compressed stream
20:21<DASPRiD>you mean, as it is signed?
20:22<DASPRiD>you mean, as it is signed?
20:22<SmatZ>I don't know php :-x
20:22<DASPRiD>whops
20:22<+glx>high bit set means negative for signed
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20:22<DASPRiD>oh yeah, now it is :)
20:23<SmatZ>.... I typed twice the same sentence ... and I didn't know about it :-x I should really sleep
20:23<SmatZ>good night
20:23<DASPRiD>nini
20:23<DASPRiD>thanks for help
20:28-!-Kisfvo [~Kisfvo@ool-18bfed8c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #openttd
20:28<Kisfvo>Hello all.
20:29<Kisfvo>How is everyone doing?
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20:30-!-Kisfvo [~Kisfvo@ool-18bfed8c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #openttd
20:30<Kisfvo>Hello all!
20:32-!-Kisfvo [~Kisfvo@ool-18bfed8c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit []
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20:32<Kisfvo>Greetings
20:32<Kisfvo>Is anyone there?
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23:05<AgentLeMan>hello everybody :o) can someone help me with an error i get while compiling? the error is "C:\Program Files\Microsoft SDKs\Windows\v6.0A\include\winnt.h(7818) : error C4430: missing type specifier - int assumed." even though i redirected msvc8 to the downloaded SDK.
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 13 00:00:48 2008