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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-15

---Logopened Sat Nov 15 00:00:53 2008
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03:43<Patrick>steel requires low carbon in fact
03:43<Patrick>so after making iron, you bubble oxygen through it to remove the residual carbon
03:44<Patrick>otherwise you get brittle cast iron
03:44<Patrick>good for drain covers, not for buildings
03:49<duckzor>Patrick, my point is still valid though. you need some sort of alloy material to make steel
03:50<duckzor>and i know FeSi is used for that sort of thing
03:51<duckzor>not to mention the biproduct of FeSi production is a dust used to make concrete stronger.
03:51<duckzor>anyways
03:51<Patrick>aye
03:51<planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel <-- no Si.
03:52<duckzor>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_steel_grades
03:52<duckzor>plenty of si :P
03:52<duckzor>i was way wrong on the %'age
03:53<duckzor>0.75%-1.5% si in steel :P
03:53<duckzor>depending
03:53<duckzor>for stainless that is
03:54<Patrick>I imagine that's more of a tolerable or useful side-effect of mining iron ore from silicates
03:54<planetmaker>stainless uses cromium. not silicon
03:55<duckzor>planetmaker, stainless uses both :p
03:55<duckzor>rather there is a percentage of silicon in stainless and any steel
03:55<duckzor>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy_steel#Material_science
03:56<planetmaker>you notice that your link doesn't support silicon as inclusion?
03:56<duckzor>well i wasnt arguing for that
03:56<duckzor>i dont want FeSi industries
03:56<duckzor>it would be pointless
03:57<duckzor>im just saying in the real world they use FeSi to make steel
03:58<planetmaker>sure.
03:58<planetmaker>it's all numb people who wrote those articles, I guess :P
03:59<planetmaker>doesn't mean it cannot be done though
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04:00<duckzor>One metric ton of steel contains approximately 3-4 kilograms of FeSi, whereas one metric ton ot stainless steel contains approximately 20 kilograms of FeSi. Hence, we are always surrounded by products containing ferrosilicon.
04:00<duckzor>and now lets discuss something intresting instead :P
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04:17<Wolf01>hello
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06:02<Eddi|zuHause2>why does LaTeX turn ">" into a "¿"?
06:02-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
06:04<@Rubidium>because it assumes a spanish codepage?
06:04<Gekz>it does?
06:04<Gekz>lol
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>\usepackage{ngerman}
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>does not look like i'm telling it to use spanish :p
06:10<Patrick>so, er, whereabouts is the autoreplace gui? I've used it before, I just lost it
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>vehicle list -> manage list -> replace vehicles
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06:12<Patrick>bwaha!
06:12<Patrick>cheers
06:12<Patrick>I played the historical angle, now i have 50 kirby paul tanks
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06:16<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: you should use > in math mode ( $>$ )
06:17<Gekz>I can't see a use for LaTeX
06:17<Gekz>other than random typesetting
06:17<Gekz>but why would you be typing > in it if it's not maths
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: can i override that somewhere, that i can leave out the $ $?
06:18<Alberth>Gekz: that's why it is mapped to some (apparently) common spanish char
06:19<Gekz>that's not a good reason either
06:19<Gekz>lol
06:19<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: what do you use the char for?
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'm writing a draft for my diploma thesis, and out of reflex i type stuff like "->"
06:20<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: $\rightarrow$ :)
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't help with my reflexes :p
06:21<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: you can do a search/replace afterwards
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06:26<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: To make > a normal character, you have to override default char code mappings. I have no idea how unfortunately. You'll have to read the TeX book by Knuth.
06:26<Gekz>write an Eddi keymap
06:27<Alberth>Well, I once had a system with a programmable keyboard, there you simply remap > to $>$ in the keyboard :)
06:28<Gekz>lol.
06:29<Zuu>That would be a bit anoying if you would write > for any other reason than typing it in LaTeX.
06:29<Zuu>Other than if you put the macro on some other key than the usual place ofcourse.
06:31<Zuu>I could eaisily just put it on shift + any number, so it won't override any existing stuff (I don't have anything on shift+ number). Normal Qwerty-folks could put it on Alt Gr + any letter.
06:32<Patrick>Zuu: what about ... punctuation?
06:32<Zuu>Patrick: What punctuation?
06:32<Patrick>ah, ok, you're on a non-thingy keyboard
06:33<Zuu>Patrick: http://aoeu.info/s/dvorak/images/svorak-A5.png
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>AltGr+letter has some @łŋđħ¶€ŧ stuff predefined here :p
06:35<Zuu>And how often do you use them?
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'd rather have greek letters there
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>but i haven't got around to modifying the keymap
06:36<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, I was also thinking that
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06:56<Patrick>I use alpha and beta lot
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>i'll be using \lambda and \epsilon a lot
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>or rather, \varepsilon
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07:07<billy6>hi!
07:07-!-vvv444 [~vvv444@85-250-87-79.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:08<billy6>are there any programmers?
07:09<SmatZ>batti5?
07:09<dihedral>billy6, what is your real question?
07:09<billy6>who is batti5?
07:10<SmatZ>someone with similiar nick to your :-P
07:11<dihedral>@seen batty5
07:11<@DorpsGek>dihedral: I have not seen batty5.
07:11<dihedral>@seen batti5
07:11<@DorpsGek>dihedral: batti5 was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 1 day, 19 hours, 29 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <Batti5> a talking program?
07:11<billy6>no, sry, I'm not batti5... if i wanted to write an opengl program, which needs data from openttd to draw the landscape, how would i do it?
07:12<dihedral>there is an opengl thread in the forums
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07:13<billy6>how do i find it?
07:14<Zuu>try searching for opengl in general openttd forum.
07:14<Zuu>could be devforum or suggestions forum too.
07:14<dihedral>tt-forums does have a search function
07:15<dihedral>and there is still google
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07:27<billy6>ok, thank you very much, i think i found something
07:30<dihedral>well done
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07:42<ln>hello dihedral
07:43<dihedral>hello ln
07:50<duckzor>hmm
07:50<duckzor>this small airport thingy is starting to annoy me
07:51*duckzor starts a new 3d model to do while hes being cross with the airpot
07:51<duckzor>*airport
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08:03<Antdovu>you know you code too much when you wake up in the morning and think that your room is a .cpp file and your bed is a particular function...
08:03<SmatZ>hahaha
08:03<Antdovu>fortunately my nightmares don't include any segmentation faults
08:03<Antdovu>at least I don't remember any...
08:04<SmatZ>when I played TTD a lot, I had dreams about it, and saw squared world (like - bed has 3 squares, table 2 squares, ...)
08:04<SmatZ>weird
08:04<SmatZ>hehe
08:05<Antdovu>yeah, I used to try different combinations of tracks in my head without wanting to think about it
08:05<SmatZ>:-)
08:07<theholyduck>whenever i've been modeling alot
08:07<theholyduck>and do something i dont wanna do
08:07<Zuu>I've only dreamed about enhancing railway junctions :)
08:07<theholyduck>i instinctivly do ctrl+z
08:08<theholyduck>even in thin air
08:08<SmatZ>:-D
08:08<Alberth>I once bicycled home, and while thinking about a problem at work, turned left one street too early. At the moment I realized it, I thought 'hmm, this is the wrong sub-directory' :)
08:08<theholyduck>i cant decide WHAT i wanna model for the 32bpp project :P
08:09<theholyduck>all the really good stuff is either airports. wich im currently bored of
08:09<theholyduck>or taken :P
08:09<Patrick>Alberth: did you instinctively try to punch backspace or type "cd .."
08:09<Patrick>I got called on something like that once, I was trying to see something far away and my pinkie twitched as if I was going to press "z"
08:09<Alberth>Patrick: no, I thought, he this thing has a backdoor to the right street
08:10<Patrick>hah
08:11<Alberth>and I thought a while how that would map to real FS directory structure :P
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08:14<Zuu>Last weird dream was about enhancing the luggage system at our major airport, after having been there at a study visit there with a class in air traffic planing I am taking. Quite impressive sytem actually.
08:16<SmatZ>:)
08:16<SmatZ>joins before split are cause of jams
08:17<SmatZ>every day I travel by bus I see examples of that
08:17<SmatZ>if the designers played TTD, they knew this has to be avoided
08:17<theholyduck>SmatZ, well sure.
08:17<theholyduck>but the problem with cities
08:17<theholyduck>is that once they are built
08:17<Zuu>For luggage that does not have an exit open they store the luggage downstairs in a luggage hotel, all automatic. :)
08:17<theholyduck>you need a good war to rearange the streets
08:18<SmatZ>theholyduck: I was kidding a bit ;) also, you are money-limited :)
08:18<theholyduck>SmatZ, just enforce communism for a bit. declare war on your neighbours. have them bomb your cities and then force your people into building better city layouts
08:19<theholyduck>though a bit elaborate just to speed up bus travel
08:19<SmatZ>theholyduck: well, even during communism this wasn't possible :-P
08:19<theholyduck>SmatZ, well alternative nr2.
08:19<theholyduck>invade all the worlds third world countries
08:19<theholyduck>and reimplent slavery
08:20<theholyduck>free labour!
08:20<SmatZ>I don't think there was ever slavery :)
08:20<Prof_Frink>Alberth: A backdoor to another directory? That'd be a symlink.
08:20<theholyduck>nothing is impossible as long as you got determination. strenght and a endless supply of expendable labor!
08:21<theholyduck>SmatZ, and what do you mean. there was no slavery?
08:21<theholyduck>there ALWAYS was slavery
08:22<Alberth>Prof_Frink: not really, symlinks still follows the dir structure. I think you'd end up with a graph, like a set of Wiki pages (although at the time I had never seen a Wiki).
08:22<theholyduck>everyone did it :D
08:22<SmatZ>true :)
08:22<Antdovu>everyone knows that you can use slavery to turn population into hammers but not beakers.
08:23<theholyduck>hmm
08:23<theholyduck>maybe i should model a airplane :P
08:23<Antdovu>a unicorn!
08:24<theholyduck>Antdovu, well 32bpp doesnt really ned unicorns
08:24<theholyduck>*need
08:24<Antdovu>why not?
08:24<theholyduck>well last time i checked there wasnt any unicorns in the original ttd?
08:24<theholyduck>i MAY be wrong
08:24<theholyduck>or in openttd
08:24<Antdovu>it's a feature request
08:24<theholyduck>so why would 32bpp openttd need it?
08:24*SmatZ wonders if "Slavic people" have something to do with "being slaves"
08:24<Antdovu>there weren't any trams either, were there? ;)
08:25<theholyduck>Antdovu, well trams are USEFULL
08:25<theholyduck>im all for the implementation of the invisible pink unicorn thouhg
08:25<Antdovu>so are unicorns
08:25<theholyduck>but since its allready there
08:25<Antdovu>ok, let's merge the ideas
08:25-!-Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@resnet729.bournemouth.ac.uk] has joined #openttd
08:25<Antdovu>a flying unicorn
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>i think my head is exploding...
08:26<theholyduck>Eddi|zuHause, cut the blue wire!
08:26<Antdovu>that's work, right?
08:26<theholyduck>or was it the red one?
08:26<Alberth>fairy-tale land!
08:26<theholyduck>just cut the bugger!
08:26<Antdovu>unicorns are real
08:27<Zuu>Could possible tak 2 pax.
08:27<Zuu>take*
08:27<Alberth>and castles as cities
08:28<Antdovu>more than 2 if we consider it a Trojan unicorn
08:29<Antdovu>ok, I'll stop with the unicorns for a few hours :)
08:30<theholyduck>the vickers is the coolest one with no model
08:30<theholyduck>pluss everyone loves the vickers
08:30<theholyduck>thus finding some good reference should be easy
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08:32<Antdovu>http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=vickers&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
08:32<theholyduck>actually there is a webpage that has like 3k pics of vickers
08:32*vvv444 wonders why Arctic climate has no oil rigs
08:33<theholyduck>i took vickers nr1
08:33<theholyduck>the first one they made
08:33<theholyduck>27 pics of just that one
08:33<theholyduck>perfect side and front shots even
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08:48<yorick>the PACKET_SERVER_COMMAND should always end with a bool, right?
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09:03<yorick>00020411100000000000000000817c000000003803000008 <-- this is the content, but I can't understand it...
09:03<planetmaker>hm.... is there a limit on the number of grfs the grf selection dialogue can handle?
09:07<Antdovu>yes
09:07<Antdovu>there definitely is :P
09:07<Antdovu>I just don't know a reasonable upper bound
09:08*Rubidium would vote for something around 600 ;)
09:10<Antdovu>looking at code isn't fair :P
09:10<yorick>it seems to be company 0, cmd 269550594(&0xFF), p1 0, p2 0, tile 31873, text '', callback 0, frame 824, my_cmd 8?
09:10<@Rubidium>Antdovu: I'm not looking at code
09:10<@Rubidium>if I would've done that I'd've said that the limit is around 65536
09:11<@Rubidium>the 600 is merely the number of "notable" NewGRFs
09:11<yorick>anything until p2 seems to make sense
09:12<Ammler>Rubidium: do you have faster connection now?
09:12<Ammler>would be really happy about such a list :-)
09:16<@Rubidium>http://paste.openttd.org/176674
09:18<Patrick>what rev number are we up to now?
09:19<yorick>@list openttd
09:19<@DorpsGek>yorick: bug, bugs, changed, commit, download, grf, grfs, info, port, ports, propset, servers, svn, thelog, and youngest
09:19<yorick>@openttd youngest
09:19<@DorpsGek>yorick: latest: r14578
09:20<Patrick>niiice3
09:20<Patrick>it was 3000 the last time I did any work on it :P
09:21<planetmaker>[15:08] * Rubidium would vote for something around 600 ;) <-- because not all were displayed after I added two full versions of our grf pack :)
09:21<planetmaker>it ended somewhere around entries starting with 's'
09:22<@Rubidium>I don't know of any restriction
09:25<planetmaker>I'll have a closer look :)
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09:29<yorick>http://paste.openttd.org/176676 <-- all grfs used somewhere in multiplayer
09:30<planetmaker>hm... cannot reproduce it.
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09:31<Ammler>thanks Rubidium
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09:33<planetmaker>maybe I was just too stupid to scrol
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09:36<Ammler>GTS should not count as NewGRF
09:36<@petern>gts?
09:36<Ammler>generic tram set
09:37<@petern>why not?
09:37<Ammler>it was distributed with ottd and it is used on many servers alon.
09:38<yorick>it is only distributed on stable releases
09:38<@petern>...
09:38<Ammler>ah well.. nvm.
09:38<@petern>it's a newgrf
09:38<Ammler>of course it is.
09:38<@petern>of course it 'counts as newgrf'
09:38<Ammler>I agree :-)
09:38<yorick>servers with only GTS should not count as GRF-enabled server...
09:39<Ammler>yorick: nice said.
09:39<@petern>nicely
09:39<@petern>but you're wrong
09:40<Patrick>if you have a version of ottd that is capable of joining a server using GTS, then it can load GTS
09:40<Patrick>but that's no guarantee
09:40<Ammler>petern: why?
09:42<Ammler>ah, forget it, it is ok. It was just a "wild" thought. No worth to discuss about.
09:43<yorick>could anyone help me with the command problem?
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09:47<Patrick>Ammler: it's a thought
09:49<Ammler>Patrick: that was for peter
09:50<Ammler>my thought had nothing to do with technical things, it was just statistics
09:51<Ammler>GTS is like openttd[w|d].grf
09:53<Ammler>(to be fair to other tram grfs)
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10:21<yorick>could anyone help me?
10:22<welshdragon>with what?
10:22<welshdragon>if you'll help me :)
10:22<yorick>with my failure to understand the network protocol in case of the PACKET_SERVER_COMMAND
10:22<yorick>and what's your problem?
10:23<welshdragon>my query is if i put an entry presignal before a junction, will the junction be kept clear until there's a path?
10:23<welshdragon>alas, i can't help you with yoyr problem
10:27-!-Killer11 [~Killer11@82-135-222-146.static.zebra.lt] has joined #openttd
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10:39<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: entry signals are not path signals
10:40<welshdragon>hmm
10:40<welshdragon>i just need to keep some junctions clear
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>the old block signals don't care about paths, they check wether the block is clear
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>with block signals, you use entry and exit signals to keep the junction clear, with path signals, you place only a signal at the entrance, and at the exit you leave 1 train length space before the next signal
10:44<welshdragon>hokay
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10:46<Eddi|zuHause>note that entrance and exit block signals are meant for very simple junctions, they fail when the junctions get too complex
10:56<welshdragon>i have a flat crossover junction that's all, i just wondered if a entry signal would keep it clear
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause>entry signals do nothing special if you don't have matching exit signals
11:20<Wolf01>bbl
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11:35<ln>http://www.airliners.net/photo/AmeriJet-International/Boeing-727-2F9-Adv(F)/1350435/L/
11:37-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@161-18-80-78.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #openttd
11:40<ln>dunno if i'd want to drive a van on that road: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Roblex-Aviation/Short-360/1350838/L/
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11:55<yorick>why does CmdMoneyCheat have a special networking check, as it is already a CMD_OFFLINE command?
11:59<Aali>may be old code
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12:00<Antdovu>maybe it stops it from working if I modify my client?
12:00<Antdovu>(didn't look at the code)
12:00<yorick>Antdovu, no, CMD_OFFLINE does that already
12:00<yorick>but it does stop it from working if I modify my server
12:01<yorick>which stops me from being a good control-freak
12:01<Antdovu>anyway, that double check probably doesn't matter much in terms of performance
12:02<Antdovu>not that having less code would be a bad idea
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>i want my cheats to be ultra performant!!
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>i click on them 1 million times per second!
12:02<yorick>(I do sometimes)
12:03<yorick>just a simple 1-million-times-per-second-button-clicker to give me the huge amount of money needed for copy-pasting a 2048x2048 map
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>so you basically want to cheat yourself on the server, but not allow anyone else to cheat
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>you could just add a few 0 to the code and then recompile :p
12:05<yorick>no, I would like to allow multiple persons to cheat, in case other people like to flood the map
12:05<yorick>so I can restore it with a small copy-paste without losing and player properties that might be on the map
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>err... right...
12:07-!-Zahl [~Zahl@f051075091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:07<yorick>and to restore minor landscape terraforming ( hills that get flattened)
12:07-!-Zahl [~Zahl@f051075091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>so you really want a hot-replace-saveload
12:07<yorick>I already have that, it just needs a lot of mony
12:07<yorick>e*
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>what if you instead add a no-money-flag or auto-restore-money to the copy paste (terraforming) routines?
12:08-!-Killer11 [~Killer11@82-135-222-146.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>like some versions of autoreplace add some virtual money to play with, before doing the actual autoreplace
12:09<yorick>then it wouldn't be really network compatible, would it
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>why? the commands are run on all clients
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>just have to ensure that hacked clients cannot cheat that way
12:10<yorick>the hacks we use to run the server with some people godlike mode wouldn't get into openttd anyway
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>or that you only publish the hacked version to the people you trust ;)
12:11<yorick>the changes you suggest would require all clients to be patched
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>hm, that might be necessary, indeed
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12:12<yorick>just the double-check removed, and it'd work
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>i do remember a while back that people requested/wrote a patch to change the money transfer routines to generate money from a null-soruce
12:13<yorick>autocleaned companies could be the null-source
12:14<yorick>they have about max_money/2 :p
12:14<Patrick>huh?
12:14<yorick>huhhuh?
12:16<Patrick>mmm, money
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12:28-!-eht [~the@132.208.165.65] has joined #openttd
12:30<eht>HELLO ALLZ!!!
12:30<Aali>No.
12:31<dihedral>stop yelling!
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>it must really suck if they misspell your name that badly, Aali ;)
12:31<dihedral>LOL
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, i->y, y->z, aal->all ;)
12:32<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: i didn't really look at it that way, but sure
12:33-!-TinoM| [~Tino@i59F5CD9C.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
12:33<Avdg>are some people ready to think, cause i maybe a very difficult treath
12:33<ln>HELLO EHT
12:33<Aali>great, spambots
12:33<ln>err, a spambot
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>one?? thousands!!
12:34<ln>so true
12:34<Avdg>:/ spambot at me...
12:34<Avdg>should i give the nicks...
12:35<Avdg>aaa, alehyx, andyBot,...
12:35<Avdg>all saying http://pxyBNC.tk
12:36<Avdg>!help :/
12:36-!-Avdg was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
12:36-!-Avdg [~kvirc@78-21-56-40.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
12:36<Avdg>???
12:37<Avdg>its not fun...
12:38-!-The_Sex_Is_On_Fire [~Booth{wor@82-32-210-243.cable.ubr07.newt.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
12:38<The_Sex_Is_On_Fire>hello
12:38-!-The_Sex_Is_On_Fire is now known as Booth
12:38<Booth>hello
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>common typo :p
12:38<ln>another bot Booth?
12:38-!-eht [~the@132.208.165.65] has quit [autokilled: Spamming. Contact support@oftc.net for further information and assistance. (2008-11-15 17:38:45)]
12:39<Booth>i am not a bor
12:39<Booth>bot
12:39<Antdovu>I am a bot
12:39<Booth>i am an android
12:39<Avdg>:p
12:40<Avdg>why is this happends so often the last year :/
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>this what happened?
12:41<Avdg>already saw joinspamming... but not this personal attack :/
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>btw, did anybody click on that link, and find out how dangerous it is?
12:42<Avdg>i've started a topic on forum... but its realy for the openttd coders...
12:43<Antdovu>it's some mirc bs
12:44<Avdg>:/
12:44*Avdg hate mirc
12:44<Avdg>kvirc is better :p
12:44-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host121-194-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
12:45<Antdovu>I use pidgin, it sucks
12:45<Avdg>^^
12:46<Patrick>no matter how dilligently I service my oil wells, they still dry up
12:46<Patrick>is it malice?
12:46<Antdovu>it is a personal attack on you
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>oil wells do never increase production, and close after 1980
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>use oil rigs instead
12:47<Patrick>it's 1943
12:47<Avdg>i am happy: kvirc has an option, close all queries :D
12:47<dihedral>Antdovu, xchat and irssi ;-)
12:47<Antdovu>what are those?
12:48<Avdg>irc-programs
12:48<Avdg>hum... im making an example for my topic :p
12:49<Antdovu>for some reason I don't like adding programs
12:49<Antdovu>and my current IRC client already works, just somehwta annoyingly :P
12:50<Antdovu>no idea how I managed type that permutation
12:52<Avdg>i am minimalising with programs atm... only trouble... the best programs are mostly heavy and slow programs
12:52<Aali>for some values of best
12:53<Patrick>I built my economy on OIL!
12:53<Patrick>gah
12:53<Patrick>back to the start
12:53<Patrick>bwaha, I love the challenge
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>well, clearly, "windows" and "word" are definitely "best"
12:54-!-Singaporekid [~notme@cm40.psi140.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:55<Zuu>Well, word is not that power hungry. But try make a heavy regex-search in word with ViEmu. :-)
12:55<Antdovu>I have linux on dual boot but I rarely use it because vista takes ages to boot
12:55<Aali>Antdovu: then dont boot vista ;)
12:55<Antdovu>and I am too lazy to install the complete stack of necessary programs on linux
12:56<Zuu>Antdovu: Why do don't use Linux beacues vista boots slow??
12:56<Antdovu>(5:55:12 PM) Antdovu: and I am too lazy to install the complete stack of necessary programs on linux
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>i have specifically decided against dual boot when i switched to linux
12:56<Aali>well, you could replace vista with something lighter, like XP
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>kind of like ditch into the cold water
12:57<Antdovu>no games on linux ;)
12:57<Antdovu>tuxracer doesn't count
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>plenty of games on linux
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>openttd ;)
12:57<Antdovu>what's that? never heard of it
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i even got civ4 running on wine
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i later did install a windows, for lan parties etc.
12:57<Antdovu>interesting that you'd say that
12:57<Zuu>Dual boot sucks. But both systems have their strengths that are hard to live without.
12:58<Antdovu>I have a BTS game in the background at the moment :P
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>but i boot into the windows only like once or twice a year
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes... civ is... very addictive...
12:58<Aali>its easier when you have two computers, one windows, the other linux ;)
12:59<Antdovu>well, I am often in the computer lab with my laptop, plenty of extra computers to use :P
12:59<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: So you never watch TV or movies on demand?
12:59*Rubidium wonders what was the last time he needed Windows
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>i always watch TV, that's what i have kaffeine for...
12:59<Antdovu>most run linux
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>and certain definitions of "movies on demand" ;)
13:00<Antdovu>bt?
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have the bandwidth for any kind of streaming video
13:01*Rubidium knows that the last time there was Windows on one of my computers is roughly 4.5 years ago, which is due to it being preinstalled on my laptop
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>even youtube is hardly possible
13:01<@Rubidium>youtube works fine
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>i mean bandwidth-wise
13:02<@Rubidium>just download the .flvs and run them in mplayer ;)
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, something like that ;)
13:02<@Rubidium>gives you much more, better and quicker control over the playback
13:03<yorick>(repeat) why does CmdMoneyCheat have a special networking check, as it is already a CMD_OFFLINE command?
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i hate those embedded flash players
13:03<Avdg>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=40503&p=743977#p743977 <- my suggestion
13:04<Avdg>but it will be a bad idea i guess
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13:04<Eddi|zuHause>what are the odds of something good coming out of the suggestions forum? :p
13:05<Patrick>nothing
13:05<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: near 0 as it's such utter crap that I don't even spend time reading it
13:05<Aali>Avdg: is the MASSIVE rewrite worth it?
13:05<Avdg>dont know
13:05<DaleStan>Epsilon. That or delta; I can never remember which is which.
13:05<Aali>oh and YAPF already works with segments, much like you've illustrated
13:05<Avdg>im new on english forum :p
13:06<Patrick>Rubidium: perhaps if you changed to a 3d engine and introduced shooter/RPG elements
13:06<Avdg>close that topic if it doesnt make sense :p
13:06<Patrick>Avdg: end of the day, the pathfinder isn't the bottleneck
13:06<Patrick>it's the rendering
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>Avdg: maybe you should talk to Tekky, he has played around a bit with alternate ways of reservations
13:07<Aali>Patrick: rendering doesn't bog down servers though
13:07<Avdg>I am learning C++ by reading the code...
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>especially multiple types of reservation on the same tile (strong/weak/etc.)
13:07<Avdg>so i think that will say enough
13:08<Avdg>i am thinking on reservations like rl
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>what is the main bottleneck of PBS, though, is the repeated reservation attempts when waiting on a red signal
13:08<Avdg>but that will be hard :p
13:08<Avdg>hum...
13:08<Aali>"fixing" ship pathfinding might be a better idea
13:08<Aali>quite difficult, though
13:08<Patrick>lemme guess
13:08<Patrick>adding one ship makes the game slow down?
13:09<Avdg>no, long distance between buoys slows down...
13:09<Aali>nah, the old pathfinder performs okay, but thats because its not really doing much pathfinding
13:09<Aali>so you have to place bouys
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, suggestion for buoys, since we already have boost/bgl in cargodest, build up a graph of all buoys, and statically store the path between any two (adjacent) buoys
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>then ship pathfinding only has to care about which buoys to pass
13:11<Aali>you shouldn't *need* bouys though
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>placing a buoy or modifying territory might be expensive, though
13:12<Aali>the pathfinder should be able to manage without them
13:12<Avdg>should there be a new event at pbs... if an train left a cross or signal, that the pbs should check it again
13:12<Avdg>that other trains can reserve
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13:12<Eddi|zuHause>Avdg: yes, listener pattern, but where to store?
13:12<Avdg>:/
13:13<Avdg>new vars?
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>you can't store it in the map array
13:13<Avdg>it doesnt need...
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>so you need some kind of reservation pool
13:13<Avdg>pool?
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>"pool" is ottd's version of a dynamic array
13:14<Avdg>ow :p
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13:14<Eddi|zuHause>there's a station pool, a vehicle pool, an industry pool, etc.
13:14<Avdg>that the game make it in begin, it will take some more loading time...
13:14<Avdg>wait a bit...
13:15<Avdg>its just an event
13:15-!-yorick [~yorick@82-171-205-190.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:15<Avdg>so if a train left a special item... (entered station, left signal, jucntion, ...) it should find the pbssignals...
13:16<Avdg>and ask 1 of the pbssignal to calculate...
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13:16<Aali>sounds like a small improvement over the current situation
13:16<Avdg>but i dont know how the pbs choose his signal to calculate
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you must consider that this must be faster than the train recalculating the path every tick
13:16<Aali>you still have to start over every time
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>and the possibly affected PBS signals may be much larger
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>it needs a reverse pathfinder
13:17<Avdg>that pathfinders can tell wich exit he may not take...
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>you need all signals that can lead to this tile
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>whereas trains only reuse the existing pathfinder
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>which has an additional return value if it crossed an existing reservation
13:18<Avdg>so he can skip when the trains where the cleared junction is only that one he cant take
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>and then sets the signal to red
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>or rather, to not green
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13:20<Avdg>i was actually thinking on an other way to unreservate...
13:21<Avdg>hum...
13:21*Avdg reading the source
13:22<Avdg>isnt there any svn system in the microsoft c++ editor?
13:23<Avdg>brb
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13:29<Avdg>k
13:29<Avdg>:/ eating
13:29*Avdg hongry
13:32<davis->did you mean horny? @google
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13:47<Avdg>back
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14:00<ln>i press "bj<tab>" and nothing happens
14:01<rortom>hi
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14:09<Eddi|zuHause>ln: there must be a conspiracy
14:10<@petern>@seen bjarni
14:10<@DorpsGek>petern: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 21 hours, 42 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <Bjarni> <ln-> well, good to see you back amongst the healthy, in any case. <-- sort off.... I'm totally tired and I missed everything at uni this week
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14:23-!-Lord_Vider [~egliolter@87.252.227.41] has joined #openttd
14:23<Lord_Vider>hi
14:24<Lord_Vider>is anybody alive?
14:24<Lord_Vider>need help with TTD
14:24<Lord_Vider>ëóøå íà ðóñêîì
14:24<yorick>?
14:24<welshdragon>Lord_Vider, is it technical?
14:24<Lord_Vider>dunno
14:24<welshdragon>and can you speak english?
14:24-!-vvv444 [~vvv444@85-250-87-79.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #openttd
14:24<Lord_Vider>yea
14:24-!-rortom [~rortom_@5aca97b0.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:25<ln>he's from belarus, interesting. so they do have internets.
14:25<welshdragon>ok, what's your problem?
14:25<Lord_Vider>->ln<- very funny
14:25<welshdragon>Lord_Vider, ignore his witty remarks,
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14:26<Lord_Vider>after start its write some kind of "Couldnt find font"
14:26<welshdragon>hmm?
14:26<welshdragon>which game? openttd?
14:26<Lord_Vider>and i see only "????? ??? ??? ???" but words
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14:26<Lord_Vider>yea
14:26<ln>welshdragon: i mean seriously, belarus is perhaps the most "closed" country in europe.
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14:27<welshdragon>ln, hmm, maybe
14:27-!-rortom [~rortom_@5aca97b0.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd
14:27<Lord_Vider>->ln<- r u from moon?
14:27<yorick>yes, they only have ? in belarus
14:27<welshdragon>but that's not what we're here for
14:27<yorick>unless you use another font
14:28<Lord_Vider>ok, how change lang???
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14:29<ln>Lord_Vider: belarus is not a closed country?
14:29<Lord_Vider>->ln<- errr
14:29<Lord_Vider>not
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14:30<Lord_Vider>n sweden?
14:30<Lord_Vider>:)
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14:31<Eddi|zuHause>Lord_Vider: maybe you should look in the readme, it has a part about what to do when you only see "???"
14:31<Lord_Vider>really?
14:31<ln>Lord_Vider: for example, your president is banned from travelling to European Union, even as a tourist. no?
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>Lord_Vider: no, you are the first person to ever encounter this problem...
14:32<Lord_Vider>yes. but its not disturbing me
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14:33<Lord_Vider>->Eddi|zuHause<- maybe havent this part.... there is nor
14:33<Lord_Vider>not
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14:35<Lord_Vider>fck
14:35<vvv444>Hey, was tram logic for choosing stop when several available on same station ever considered/discussed?
14:35<Antdovu>no swearing
14:35<welshdragon>Lord_Vider, (from the readme (look in your opennttd file) With the added support for font-based text selecting a non-latin language will result in garbage (lots of '?') shown on screen. Please open your configuration file and add a desired font for small/medium/-and large_font. This can be a font name like "Tahoma" or a path to a font.
14:35<Antdovu>vvv444: yes, it chooses the worst one
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>"[...] will result in garbage (lots of '?') shown on screen. [...]" <- how about this section?
14:35<welshdragon>now anything else./
14:36<Lord_Vider>->Eddi|zuHause<- danke, i'm donkey :)
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>vvv444: the multistop feature was not (yet) updated for drive through stops
14:36<vvv444>Antdovu: I hope you're joking :) It seems that the nearest is chosen.
14:36<Antdovu>even choosing a random one would be better...
14:37<Lord_Vider>er.....
14:37<vvv444>Eddi|zuHause: Multistop? What is it?
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>vvv444: it tries to reserve bays like with the other bus/truck stations, but it does not consider, that the 2nd bay is only accessible from the other side
14:37<Lord_Vider>which configuration file ???
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14:37<Eddi|zuHause>so it gets suboptimal results, if already a bay is taken
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>Lord_Vider: openttd.cfg
14:37<Ammler>why do some GRF authors use bitswitch instead of multiple parameters?
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: because assembler programmers like bitswitches
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14:38<Eddi|zuHause>they have been trained to save and pack bits wherever possible
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>indoctrinated, one could say
14:38<Lord_Vider>->Eddi|zuHause<- where is it?
14:39<Ammler>but you agree it is less userfriendly?
14:39<vvv444>Some try saving bit halves :)
14:39<welshdragon>Lord_Vider, look in the directory you installed openttd
14:39<welshdragon>c:\program files\openttd
14:39<welshdragon>or something
14:39<welshdragon>wherever you installed it
14:39<Ammler>"1 0 1" looks better then "5"
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>no, in my documents\openttd
14:39<Lord_Vider>there's not
14:40<Lord_Vider>fck
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>you mean fsck
14:40<ln>Ammler: *than
14:40<Lord_Vider>found!!!
14:40<welshdragon>Eddi|zuHause, min'es in my instalattion directory... how... strange
14:41<Lord_Vider>i mean f u ck
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14:41<Eddi|zuHause>when you run "openttd -d misc=3" from a cmd prompt, it should tell you the personal directory
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>no, you clearly mean filesystemcheck :p
14:43<Ammler>I thought about something like it was only possible to have one parameter at beginning of NewGRF
14:45<Lord_Vider>thanks
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15:45<yorick>Rubidium, why does the cheat need to be disabled in multiplayer using the "double" check
15:45<yorick>it can already not done by a client
15:45<yorick>and there is no way to do that without debug or patching the server either
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16:05<Ammler>is a grf coder around? http://paste.openttd.org/176685
16:06<Ammler>I have troubles to initialize the parameter with a default value, here param0 to 1
16:08<Ammler>hmm, saturday night is a bad time ;-)
16:12<Aali>did you set any other parameters before that?
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16:52<Yexo>hello
16:54<Wolf01>'night
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17:02<ln>night, Wolf01
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17:44<Ammler>Aali: still here?
17:44<Aali>nope
17:44<Aali>sorry
17:44<Ammler>:-)
17:44<Aali>:P
17:45<Ammler>if I set the parameter to 1 it works
17:45<Ammler>but if I don't, it doesn't
17:46<Aali>well, did you set any parameters anywhere else?
17:46<Ammler>but "0 * 0 0D 00 80 FF 00 \d1" should set it to 1 per default
17:46<Ammler>no
17:46<Ammler>only action8 is before
17:47<Aali>hmm, dont know what it could be then
17:49<Ammler>maybe I did escape wrong
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17:50<Aali>nah, its looks okay
17:50<Aali>-s
17:54<Ammler>well, it works now
17:54<Ammler>0 * 0 0D 00 80 FF 00 01 00 00 00
17:54<Ammler>hmm
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17:55<Ammler>that is strange
17:55<Ammler>the escapes will be "converted" by grfcodec?
17:55<Aali>yes
17:55<Aali>get a diff of the files, see whats going on
17:59<Ammler>hmm, I finish my GRF first, will then make a small test
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18:36<Antdovu>0xffffffff bottles of beer on the wall
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18:38<Antdovu>yeah, the mere sight of it can cause ping timeouts
18:40<welshdragon>Antdovu, the meer sight of you does that :P
18:43<Antdovu>I am quite frightening :)
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18:48<Eddi|zuHause>"not quite" :p
18:49<Antdovu>don't let the unicorns fool you :P
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18:52<Eddi|zuHause>i meant: remove the "quite" from the sentence :P
18:54<Antdovu>that's more like it :P
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19:09<Eddi|zuHause>interesting, "kfnmnpa" gives 4 google results ;)
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19:12<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't there once a competition to find a word that gives exactly one google result?
19:12<SpComb>yes
19:12<SpComb>or perhaps it was two dictionary words that give exactly one result
19:12<SpComb>googlewhacking, iirc
19:13<SpComb>http://www.googlewhack.com/
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>what's more interesting about "kfnmnpa" is that these seem like german sites, what was there in the english version?
19:17<ln>hmm: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/14/eveningnews/main4606261.shtml
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's a scene from scrubs, where turk changes his cell phone number to "call tur(k)", and J.D. says he can't remember that, and he'd stay with "kfnmnpa"
19:24<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: its kfnmnpa in english too
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20:18<ln>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 16 00:00:56 2008