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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-16

---Logopened Sun Nov 16 00:00:56 2008
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00:31<George>OTTD devs, what about FS 1941? A patch was updated as frosch has suggested.
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06:07<yorick>why are the MP_VOID tiles still kept?
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06:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14579 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/regression/regression.txt src/ai/api/ai_engine.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: ships have their own rules for refitting (Morloth)
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07:44<yorick>debug builds are 30 mb :o
07:48<FauxFaux>7-zip'll fix that quite quickly.
07:52<Alberth>hg repo of trunk is already 70MB without building anything
07:53<@Rubidium>that's what a few years of history does ;)
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>time for another repository crash :p
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07:57<@Rubidium>then we'd just reimport a hg/git repository
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>but that wouldn't solve the history size problem then :p
08:01<Qball>git normally manages history quiet efficient
08:02<Ammler>is ottd git repo smaller?
08:03<Qball>git gc to clean it
08:05<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14580 /trunk/ ( media/ os/win32/installer/install.nsi): -Fix [FS#2404]: scripts directory not being copied into bundles.
08:06<yorick>Rubidium, I still don't see the use of a double-check on a CMD_OFFLINE command...
08:07<yorick>better just remove the CMD_OFFLINE-ness if running debug mode
08:07<yorick>and make it CMD_SERVER?
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08:15<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a horrible idea
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>the server might be a player, too
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>which would then be unlimitedly able to cheat
08:17<yorick>what did you think I need it for...
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08:22<yorick>nono, feeding the landflattener-restore script
08:23<yorick>I can't be a control-freak admin without unlimited money!
08:24<yorick>btw, you have no way to access the money-cheat in non-debug mode
08:25<planetmaker>hu? Works for me in SP.
08:25<yorick>yes, MP
08:25<yorick>the client-side check is not really needed
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08:50<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14581 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix: make rail, road and canal building behave the same when overbuilding already built stretches.
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09:08<yorick>SB(_m[t].m3, 0, 2, 1); <-- if I do this, will bit 0 be set to 1?
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09:09<SmatZ>yes, and bits 1,2 to 0
09:09<yorick>ok :)
09:09<SmatZ>only bit 1
09:10<yorick>yes, that
09:12<yorick>SB(_m[t].m3, 2, 0, 1); <-- and if I do this, bit 1 is set to 1?
09:12<SmatZ>2 = starting bit position 0 = number of affected bits (0 is meaningless here) 1 = value to write
09:13<yorick>that way
09:13<+glx>SB(_m[t].m3, 0, 2, 2); or SB(_m[t].m3, 1, 1, 1); or SETBIT(_m[t].m3, 1);
09:18<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14582 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt terraform_cmd.cpp terraform_gui.cpp):
09:18<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2392]: blank box on cost estimation of levelling a flat area.
09:18<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix: make levelling, raising and lowering of an area behave the same.
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09:24*sladen thought it would pop by after having made the effort of signing up with flyspray
09:24<sladen>he would
09:25<sladen>do we have a 'Rubidium' around here?
09:27<planetmaker>never seen or heard of him :P
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09:27<planetmaker>except... when looking through commit list, talking about OpenTTD and stuff ;)
09:28*Rubidium doesn't remember seeing or hearing a 'Rubidium' either
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09:29<Antdovu>what is this 'OpenTTD' you keep talking about?
09:30<planetmaker>Open tedious tasks in development ;)
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>how do MSVC builds get endian_target.h?
09:34<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: they don't
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>then why is this thing telling me it doesn't find it...
09:35<+glx>msvc doesn't need it
09:36<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: probably because WIN32/WIN64 isn't defined
09:36<sladen>Rubidium: the error comes (of the bug that was closed earlier) comes from gfxinit/CheckExternalFiles(); which is checking only that the uppercase MD5s in tables/files.h files_win[] match
09:36<+glx>and that's weird as WIN32/WIN64 are magically defined
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09:37<@Rubidium>sladen: so you weren't using trunk?
09:38*sladen looks. apparently not. 0.6.0
09:39<+glx>so why did you set reported version to trunk ?
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09:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, i don't exactly use MSVC :p... my command line looks something like this: edgcpfe --microsoft --microsoft_bugs --microsoft_version=1400 -x -e3 -tused -D_M_IX86=500 -DWIN32 -D_CONSOLE -DWIN32_EXCEPTION_TRACKER -DWIN32_ENABLE_DIRECTMUSIC_SUPPORT -DWITH_ZLIB -DWITH_PNG -DWITH_FREETYPE -DENABLE_NETWORK -DWITH_PERSONAL_DIR -DPERSONAL_DIR=\"OpenTTD\" -DWITH_ASSERT articulated_vehicles.cpp
09:39<sladen>glx: because it my old tree on the harddrive
09:39<rortom>lol: --microsoft_bugs
09:39<sladen>glx: so this is something that got changed/fixed in the last 6 month
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>where i read the -D thingies out of the vcproj
09:40<+glx>sladen: I mean "Reported Version ,...trunk" in the FS task details
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>rortom: well, there are things that microsoft does non-standard, and things, that microsoft does plainly wrong :p
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>hence the two switches for microsoft dialect ;)
09:41<rortom>Eddi|zuHause: who wonders ;)
09:41<@Rubidium>sladen: nothing did change the last 6 months; since *at least* 0.4.0 both uppercase and lowercase are checked
09:42<sladen>let me suck down the latest over GPRS and I'll retest
09:42<@Rubidium>sladen: furthermore it works on unix with lowercase names
09:43<sladen>Rubidium: (that aside, in this particular case, on this particular machine, on this particular day, I have a repeatable issue)
09:44<+glx>and why not put the files in the usual places? like ~/.openttd/data ?
09:44<sladen>bugs are things that occur when what is intended does not match what actually happens
09:45<sladen>glx: I unpacked them, cd'ed to that directory, ran openttd. To move them is extra hassle; and increases the general barrier to entry
09:46<+glx>but openttd still searches them in a data subdir
09:46<+glx>be it in ~/.openttd, cwd, install dir or /usr/local/games/openttd
09:47<sladen>so moving them (or rather a symlink) into ~/.openttd/data does make it start without complaint
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09:48<sladen>so the actual issue is openttd not finding lowercase datafiles when in the current directory
09:48<Antdovu>resizing windows: uint diff = delta.x / 2; <-- should really be a signed type
09:49<sladen>Antdovu: what if the window origin is off-screen
09:49<+glx>the actual issue is you not reading the readme file :)
09:50<sladen>glx: well, I can't argue with that.
09:51<@Rubidium>sladen: the actual issue is more openttd finding the uppercase datafiles when in the current directory
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10:11<sladen>Rubidium: oh? (ah, it doesn't find uppercase, so skips the check without complaining?)
10:15<sladen>nope, mixed case fails
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10:15<sladen>Rubidium: puzzled, did you intentionally write _uppercase_?
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10:19<@Rubidium>sladen: I do not see *any* reason why it would find them uppercased and it wouldn't find them lowercased. For each location where the uppercase could fail immediately the lowercase version is tried, unless you've got a non-official binary
10:20<@Rubidium>I can't even reproduce it locally
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10:21<@petern>mixed case?
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10:33<Ammler>how would you make a "or" statement with nfo?
10:35<Ammler>something like "if not (param1 or param2) then goto x"
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>not (a or b) == (not a) and (not b)
10:37<Ammler>and how to make a and?
10:38<Aali>Ammler: just chain up some action7's
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10:38<Ammler>yeah, that would need 3
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>if (a and b) == if (a) if (b)
10:38<Ammler>I am thinking, if it would work with 2?
10:39<Ammler>if would skip a unconditional jump
10:39<Ammler>if not param1 skip 2
10:39<Ammler>if not param2 skip 1
10:40<Ammler>skip 1
10:40<Aali>if param1 skip 3
10:40<Aali>if param2 skip 2
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see your problem
10:41<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: is it possible with 2 action7?
10:41<Aali>if you want to leave out the unconditional jump, just invert the logic
10:42<Ammler>Aali: show me?
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10:42<Ammler>ah, you did
10:42<Aali>you would of course need to adjust the skip values
10:42<Ammler>no, you didn't
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>can't you do expression evaluation with advanced action 2?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe you should use a higher level language that just gets compiled into NFO
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>err... wait...
10:45<Ammler>well, I do it with my 3, I was just wondering
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>well, the problem you face is probably very common for assembler problems
10:50<Ammler>he, now I know, why my escapes don't work
10:50<Ammler>no boost installed
10:50<Ammler>as I compiled nforenum
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>error: no operator "-=" matches these operands
10:54<Eddi|zuHause> operand types are: std::list<CargoPacket *,
10:54<Eddi|zuHause> std::allocator<CargoPacket *>>::_Iterator<true> -=
10:54<Eddi|zuHause> ptrdiff_t
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should give up...
10:55<Antdovu>if all else fails, read the manual/docs/interface
10:55<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: you seem to subtract a ptrdiff from a list<> container
10:55<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: what exactly are you doing anyway?
10:56<@Rubidium>he's trying to move an iterator more than one position at a time
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>getting this compiler to compile openttd
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10:56<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: well its not ready for it :P
10:56<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: svn revert ; ./configure ; make :)
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it's about the compiler, not about openttd
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>and apparently it's getting confused with the template instantiation
10:57<@Rubidium>and looking at the specs... the random access iterator which Eddi|zuHause assumes he is using isn't used for iterating lists
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't make any modifications to the source... that would be silly for such a test ;)
10:58<Alberth>Rubidium, Eddi|zuHauseoh right, I missed the ::Iterator<true> :(
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, if i change instantiation method from -tall to -tused, i get this error:
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>"autoreplace.cpp", line 14: error: identifier "_EngineRenew_pool" is undefined
11:00<Eddi|zuHause> DEFINE_OLD_POOL_GENERIC(EngineRenew, EngineRenew)
11:01<@Rubidium>then the compiler's not understanding that _EngineRenew_pool is used?
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11:12<Eddi|zuHause>when i manually expand the macro, it changes to this message:
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>"/home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTDx/trunk/src/autoreplace.cpp", line 14: error:
11:12<Eddi|zuHause> identifier "_EngineRenew_pool" is undefined
11:12<Eddi|zuHause> OldMemoryPool<EngineRenew> _EngineRenew_pool( "EngineRenew", EngineRenew_POOL_MAX_BLOCKS, EngineRenew_POOL_BLOCK_SIZE_BITS, sizeof(EngineRenew), PoolNewBlock<EngineRenew, &_EngineRenew_pool>, PoolCleanBlock<EngineRenew, &_EngineRenew_pool>); template EngineRenew *PoolItem<EngineRenew, EngineRenewID, &_EngineRenew_pool>::AllocateSafeRaw(uint &first);
11:12<Eddi|zuHause> ^
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>so it chokes on this reference to itself, or something...
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11:20<Antdovu>how can I make my window catch all keystrokes, not just some of them?
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11:23<Antdovu>it gets esc, enter, some letters but not 'l' (opens landscape toolbar instead)
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11:51<Eddi|zuHause>Antdovu: there are some global shortcuts, it'll be difficult to override those
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>except you have a text field
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11:55<Antdovu>I have "struct SaveLoadCompanyInfoWindow : public QueryStringBaseWindow"
11:57<Antdovu>I basically used the save/load window as a reference
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12:06<china>anyone good at autocad mechanical '08 here? i need help with changing the font size on the output of linear measurment lines.
12:15<Ammler>if I use the special control string 0E, it does make the text smaller after but the linehigh for the whole text
12:15<Ammler>is that, why nforenum warns about?
12:16<Ammler>nforenum complains also about colors...
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12:22<Swallow>@china I don't know anything about your specific version, but in AutoCAD 2007 the DIMSTYLE command is most likely what you're looking for
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12:44<yorick>oops, it moved the wrong way >
12:46<ln>¿donde están Gonozal_VIII y meush?
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>no sé
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12:50<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: what exactly is this picture supposed to tell us?
12:50<yorick>my 'lively' river flooded the town
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12:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, obviously you should add rivers before towns :p
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>and it needs a higher chance for bending before it hits an obstacle ;)
12:53<yorick>it currently has no chance of bending at all :-p
12:53<Antdovu>hint: make sure not to overflow the buggers
12:53<yorick>unless it hits an obstacle, that is
12:53<yorick>the what?
12:54<Antdovu>overflow is bad :P
12:54<yorick>how should I be able to overflow the buffers?
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>build a buffer. flow the river over it
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>easy. :p
12:55<Antdovu>just check for null pointer
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>next thing he'll tell us is to defrag the hdd
12:56<Antdovu>sometimes you can have leaks so rivers go underground
12:57<Antdovu>that way you can overflow the basements
12:57<Antdovu>any of you confused now?
12:57<yorick>and that's a too big chance
12:57<yorick>it looks more like a snake now
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13:00<yorick>random is rather predictable...
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13:02<Antdovu>you can always distill randomness...
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13:59<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14583 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:59<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-16 18:59:11
13:59<CIA-5>OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changed by Excel20 (4)
13:59<CIA-5>OpenTTD: english_US - 7 fixed by WhiteRabbit (7)
13:59<CIA-5>OpenTTD: french - 2 fixed, 2 changed by glx (4)
13:59<CIA-5>OpenTTD: persian - 21 fixed by ali sattari (21)
13:59<CIA-5>OpenTTD: portuguese - 49 fixed by joznaz (49)
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14:17<Antdovu>there is nobody here
14:17<Antdovu>openttd has been discontinued
14:17<planetmaker>openttd: /home/openttd/svn-public/src/oldpool.h:125: T* OldMemoryPool<T>::Get(uint) const [with T = Station]: Assertion `index < this->GetSize()' failed.
14:17<planetmaker>Server has exited <-- r14572. is it known?
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14:19<SmatZ>planetmaker: I saw that today at PS, but failed to reproduce :-x
14:19<planetmaker>yeah, thats from ps right now
14:19<De_Ghosty>bad ram?
14:21<SmatZ>the same assert twice in one day
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>solar dust ;)
14:21<@Rubidium>the savegame can already be compromised
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>background radiation ;)
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14:22<Aali>any specific reason why openttd doesn't get a backtrace on its own?
14:22<@Rubidium>because there isn't a cross-platform-compatible way to do that
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: do you want to compile a debugger into every binary?
14:23<@Rubidium>and releasing 30+MB binaries isn't quite what we want to do either
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14:24<Aali>i'll take that as a no
14:25<Aali>because those are some lame excuses
14:25<Aali>and they dont make any sense
14:25<Antdovu>yes they do
14:26<Aali>you dont have to generate a proper backtrace for every platform out there for it to be useful
14:26<Antdovu>so for which one do you want to generate it?
14:26<@Rubidium>Aali: so, what platforms should we do it for?
14:26<Aali>you dont have to resolve symbols, just printing the address is fine for official builds
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: MSVC releases do that already
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>they produce a crash.dmp file, which you can then load into the MSVC debugger
14:28<Aali>yeah, and thats great, what about other platforms?
14:28<@petern>19:26 < Aali> you dont have to generate a proper backtrace for every platform
14:28<Aali>something similar should be doable for linux, at the very least
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>and my wild guess is that these are 98% of all binaries out there
14:28<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: not that those dumps contain much usuable information
14:29<@Rubidium>Aali: please show me your implementation
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>i did not say that... but a random backtrace does not usually contain enough useful information either ;)
14:30<@petern>man backtrace
14:30<@petern>no entry :(
14:30<SmatZ>though... even printing 256 bytes on top of stack would help
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>or you could just run the server in gdb
14:32<Aali>if you reproduce it
14:33<Aali>unless you want to make a habit of always running it in gdb, but thats just wrong :/
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: so instead you want to compile gdb into the binary for all people?
14:33<Aali>*can reproduce it, even
14:34<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: printing the top of the stack is hardly compiling gdb into the binary
14:35<@Rubidium>telling people to upload their binary so we can debug it is useful?
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>no, but it's nothing compared to a human readable or even interactive representation of the program state either
14:35<Aali>why would they need to upload their binary?
14:35<@Rubidium>Aali: because the stacktrace depends heavily on the binary
14:36<Aali>if its not an official binary its not your problem
14:36<@Rubidium>and because the binary usually isn't a binary build by us
14:36<SmatZ>it could help for debugging releases (when people usually use the precompiled binary)
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: because 80% of all people who run linux and report bugs use custom binaries
14:36<SmatZ>and for nighlies too
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>and 87% of all statistics are made up on the fly :p
14:37<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: and what did you lose there? what happens to those people? are they going to be pissed because they got some extra bytes on their system?
14:38<@Rubidium>Aali: the unix/osx people that report crashes have (as far as I can remember) always used custom build binaries
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: backtraces of those binaries are 100% useless unless you have the exact binary to match
14:38<Aali>its not going to hinder debugging with homebrewed binaries, and its sure to help people who do use the official binaries
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: it's about developers debugging other people's bugs
14:40<Aali>and that will suffer from this simple addition?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>no, but it will not gain anything
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>which makes it an unreasonable effort
14:41<Aali>fine, whatever, its your loss
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>well, you were already told: if you provide an implementation, it might be considered
14:42<Aali>and you just tried to convince me it wasn't worth the effort :P
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you don't have to believe me :p
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14:44<Aali>on another note, has anyone else noticed how mercurial queues tends to "lose" files randomly?
14:45<Aali>sometimes i have to revert files i haven't touched because they've been deleted or otherwise mutilated by mq :/
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15:02<Antdovu>Suppose I have a window and do something useful in OnTimeout(). Where would be a good place to delete the window?
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15:06<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r14584 /trunk/configure: -Fix: reconfigure when any *.in file is changed
15:10<+glx>be careful when you delete a window
15:13<Antdovu>I already discovered that it will crash in any of the places I tried :P
15:15<CIA-5>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r14585 /trunk/os/win32/installer/install.nsi: -Fix (r14580): File mask for the script directory was wrong in the Win32 install script.
15:18<Antdovu>Is it safe to mark it useless, then mark it dirty and finally delete it in OnPaint()?
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15:21<SmatZ>I don't think it is a good idea
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15:23<Antdovu>neither do I
15:23<Antdovu>it seems to work but there is likely a better solution
15:24<Vikthor>I wonder, shouldn't be the wagon(or rather road vehicle) length callback called after refit too?
15:24<frosch123>isn't it called when leaving the depot?
15:24<frosch123>SmatZ should know :)
15:29<frosch123>hmm, it seems like the depot-thingie only applies to trains
15:29<Vikthor>doesn't seem to work for me and it doesn't seem so form the code, but then again maybe I am doing something wrong in the grf
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15:29<Vikthor>frosch123: If it so maybe I can suggest this ?
15:30<SmatZ>Vikthor: for trains, it is called
15:30<SmatZ>for road vehicles, it isn't
15:30<frosch123>RoadVehUpdateCache() would be more appropiate (I guess)
15:30<Vikthor>yeah, that was my second guess
15:32<Vikthor>and another question, when you allowed refitting to zero capacity, would it be possible to allow refiting from zero capacity?
15:32<frosch123>err, it is not allowed?
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15:34<frosch123>hmm, I doubt that is correct
15:35<frosch123>but, seems like that was the reason zero was not allowed :)
15:37<Vikthor>maybe it it's correct, but my grf worked with that patch, though I know that's not enough for trunk inclusion
15:37<Antdovu>OK, so nobody actually knows where I should delete the window? :(
15:37<frosch123>I fear there are some interactions between "cargo_cap == 0" and "cargo_type == INVALID_CARGO" :(
15:40<Swallow>@Antdovu do you use DeleteWindowById(...) or something similar?
15:42<Vikthor>hmm, anyway by allowing refiting to 0 and not from 0, we at least behave as TTDPatch 2.6 r 2071
15:42<frosch123>Antdovu: I did not understand your initial problem, but maybe you want to call OnTimeout in the destructor
15:44<Vikthor>Seems like people will have to take care to which cargo they refit, because for some of them they will not be able to refit back :p
15:45<Antdovu>OnTimeout is called by something out of my control
15:45-!-d-mike [] has quit []
15:46<Antdovu>it gets called when the Save button or enter key is pressed
15:46<Antdovu>like when you try to save the game
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15:47<@Rubidium>Antdovu: we can keep guessing for possible solutions and even what you are trying to do, but that doesn't help you solving your issue
15:47<Antdovu>what would?
15:48<@Rubidium>for example showing a diff of what you've done so far
15:53<Antdovu>the interesting place in code: "// ALL DONE, now need to get rid of the window"
15:54<+glx>Antdovu: why include vector and string everywhere?
15:55<@Rubidium>Antdovu: move the ontimeout code to the onclick and most likely it works
15:56<SmatZ>Antdovu: why references when pointers are much better readable?
15:57<frosch123>[21:58] <SmatZ> Antdovu: why references when pointers are much better readable? <- with that attitude you will not get the job of my first job interview either :)
15:57<@Rubidium>ontimeout isn't meant for handling user input, but rather to force updates of the window (resorting lists etc)
15:59<SmatZ>frosch123: you failed because of this opinion? the job wasn't at your level then ;-)
15:59<SmatZ>like, level(frosch123) > level(job)
16:00<frosch123>well, the question was quite confusing in the end, as he was heading for const reference vs. stack copy ...
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16:06<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:06<Antdovu>Rubidium: that worked :)
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16:08<Antdovu>now I just need to figure out why the main window catches my OnKeyPress()
16:11<+glx>Antdovu: probably HandleKeypress doesn't know your window has an input box
16:14<Antdovu>how can I let it know that it does?
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16:15<Eddi|zuHause>look at other windows that have an edit box?
16:15<+glx>just look at HandleKeypress() source
16:15<+glx>in window.cpp
16:15<+glx>it's very easy to see what is needed
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16:28<ln>night, Wolf01
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16:37<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14586 /trunk/ -Fix (r14580): missing mkdir causing make install to fail when there's no scripts directory already.
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16:59<Antdovu>randomly generated description?
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17:09<Ammler>is that known, if you load a game with enabled magic bulldozer on a server, you can use it?
17:14<mrfrenzy>I read in the forum if you leave the magic bulldozer on the cities will use it to destroy whatever is in the way when building roads - including industries and stations
17:14<frosch123>maybe that is no longer true
17:15*SmatZ agrees
17:15<SmatZ>but maybe it is a bug :-P
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: if you used the money cheat on a savegame, and then load it in MP, you don't lose the money either
17:16<@Rubidium>the town destroying industries with magic bulldozer? That's a feature!
17:16<Ammler>indeed, nice feature :-)
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see a reason why the cheat should magically turn itself of...
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>except if you can prove it's not MP safe
17:17<frosch123>well, the old feature of removing industries using the terraform tool was removed
17:17<Ammler>the other cheats aren't MP safe?
17:17<frosch123>I don't know whether that also removed the town removing industries feature
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i don't think they have been properly checked for that :p
17:18<Ammler>Always thought, there is an other reason, to not allow those on MP.
17:18<@Rubidium>changing player isn't safe
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>you got your causality reversed
17:19<@Rubidium>neither is changing climate
17:19<Ammler>Rubidium: dih proved it other
17:19<Ammler>we have a move patch
17:19<@Rubidium>Ammler: if you change player and do a command you'll get kicked
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>not the cheats are not allowed in MP because they are not safe, they are not safe because they weren't made safe because they're not useable in MP anyway
17:20<@Rubidium>i.e. it isn't MP safe
17:20<Ammler>Rubidium: with the cheat.
17:20<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: lol
17:20<@Rubidium>well, yes... we're talking about cheats, right?
17:20<Ammler>I am wondering, the map is still there :-)
17:23<Aali>Ammler: i'm looking at the wwottdgd patches right now, what was the mysterious server problem with the 55 clients patch?
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17:24<@Rubidium>Aali: buffer overruns/overflows
17:24<Ammler>Aali: that problem is fixed on current trunk
17:24<Aali>because i couldn't find it :)
17:24<Aali>but that explains it
17:25<Ammler>hehe, nice, planetmaker will be happy about help for wwottdgd/3 ;-)
17:26<planetmaker>and also here a good night to all :)
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17:28<Aali>i was just looking for the one-tile terraform patch originally, but some of the other stuff you've done caught my eye :)
17:29<planetmaker>mind that most wasn't done by me. I just collected them
17:30<Aali>you as in all of you :P
17:30<Aali>hmm, i get a 403 on gui+move+mute.diff
17:33-!-elmex [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:34<Aali>(i can still get the other file of course, but should that be there?)
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17:37<planetmaker>should be changed
17:37<planetmaker>so, now really off. bye :)
17:43<Antdovu>is IniFile::RemoveGroup() supposed to delete group "AA" if it gets "A" as the group it is supposed to delete?
17:45<Antdovu>that is: should IniFile::RemoveGroup("A") delete an existing group named "AA" if there is no group named "A"?
17:49<Antdovu>because that is exactly what it currently does
17:50<Antdovu>it removes the first group with the given prefix, not caring whether they are actually equal
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17:51<SmatZ>hmm interesting
17:52<SmatZ>I would say it may cause buffer overflow
17:53<Antdovu>I would say that it probably breaks newgrf presets
17:53<SmatZ>good idea
17:55<Antdovu>yep, it does
17:55<Aali>i would say that it should check strlen(A) == strlen(B) before comparing anything
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17:56<Antdovu>amazing idea: use strcmp(s1, s2) to compare 2 strings
17:58<Aali>i haven't looked at the code, but yes, that might work
17:58<Antdovu>took me ages to find out why my delete button kept deleting the wrong files :(
17:58<Aali>what is it doing now?
17:59<Antdovu>well, you have a group "AA" and try to delete "A" then it deletes "AA" unless you also have "AA"
17:59<Aali>yes, but why?
17:59<Antdovu>prefix matching
17:59<Antdovu>if (memcmp(group->name, name, len) == 0)
18:00<Aali>clever use of memcmp, there
18:01<Aali>i assume len is assigned from strlen somewhere?
18:01<Antdovu>len = strlen(name)
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18:02<Aali>so its just like a strcmp, except with 50% more bugs
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18:02<Antdovu>AND it is effective
18:03<Antdovu>made me waste over an hour debugging my code
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18:04<@Rubidium>it's not even that obscure for a bug
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18:05<@Rubidium>it only wonders me that it's found now; it's there for eons (r1-ish)
18:07<Patrick>it might be from the Old Code then
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18:14<dihedral>Rubidium, real r1 or r1 from this repo? :P
18:15<@Rubidium>more pre any r1 (0.2.0)
18:18<Antdovu>how often do ancient bugs like that crawl out in openttd?
18:18<@Rubidium>less often over time
18:20<dihedral>good night
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>finding of such bugs increases with new features that overcome old limitations, and decrease with old code being rewritten
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>the higher the standards of the new code, the more likely the decreasing part will dominate
18:25<Antdovu>this shows that the newgrf presets patch either wasn't tested that much or the weird behaviour wasn't noticed
18:26<Antdovu>(I am working on something that uses the same method of storage)
18:54<welshdragon>openttd is driving me mad. i've been having connection lost all night on brianetta's server
18:56<@Rubidium>that isn't OpenTTD's fault
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>it's my fault
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>i've been overoccupying the internet :p
18:58<welshdragon>Eddi|zuHause, that'll do me
18:58<@Rubidium>okay, OpenTTD requires that your client replies to some requests of the server within 8 seconds
18:58-!-jpm_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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18:59<@Rubidium>and if your OS can't maintain a connections that replies within 8 seconds there's something wrong with either your OS or the ISP(s) or your local network
18:59<welshdragon>Rubidium, probably the isop's
18:59<welshdragon>(well, isp here in Hull)
19:00<Antdovu>8 seconds ought to be enough for smoke signals...
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19:03<Antdovu>welshdragon: does your ISP use IP over Avian Carriers by any chance?
19:04<welshdragon>ask Sacro
19:05<@Rubidium>Antdovu: only RFC2549 ;)
19:05<Aali>some routers make a habit of reseting random connections when overloaded
19:05<Aali>mine included :/
19:11<Nite_Owl>Dinner is served - later all
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19:17<Aali>network_gui.cpp, on several lines "if (client_no < MAX_COMPANIES)"
19:17<Aali>shouldn't that be MAX_CLIENTS or somesuch?
19:19<Antdovu>wouldn't it be more useful to find a case where that causes something unexpected?
19:19<Aali>i haven't had time to test it
19:20<Aali>try to kick client 10 or something and see for yourself
19:20<Aali>(it could still be wrong, even if it doesn't cause trouble)
19:22<Antdovu>so you are saying that I can't kick client 10?
19:23<Aali>once again, i haven't tested it
19:23<Aali>and its gui code, so it shouldn't affect your ability to kick people from the console
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19:38<DaleStan>Ammler: What string is NFORenum not liking? And in what context did you want to use it? Control code checking is one of the weakest and most fragile parts of NFORenum.
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19:39<Ammler>DaleStan: I liked to use small font in the description
19:39<Ammler>0E, iirc
19:39<DaleStan>The description for ...
19:40<DaleStan>Ah. I would say that that should work.
19:40<Ammler>but ottd doesn't like it either
19:40<DaleStan>Can you test in Patch?
19:40<Ammler>yes, I could.
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19:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r14587 /trunk/src/ (oldloader.cpp saveload.h): -Cleanup: Fix some old comments. Bits are not bytes.
19:45<Ammler>DaleStan: same problem
19:46<Ammler:#openttd>only the text after 0E is small, but the all linehights are small
19:46<Ammler:#openttd>so it looks quite ugly
19:48<Ammler:#openttd>in ottd only the description text is overlapping
19:48<Ammler:#openttd>in patch the whole, it seems.
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19:49<DaleStan:#openttd>Given that, I suspect Patch draws the whole thing with a single text ("\80\n\80" with the two GRF strings on the stack) while Open uses two separate texts.
19:50<Ammler:#openttd>it doesn't matter, it is not useable for both apps in this case.
19:52<Ammler:#openttd>oh, patch is version 1860, quite old :-)
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20:01<Ammler:#openttd>my workaround was to use 2 linefeeds (0D)
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20:44<Sacro:#openttd> <- free openttd musics?
20:58<ln:#openttd>Sacro: I don't know how did you happen to find such a collection, but it's great!
20:58<Sacro:#openttd>ln: reddit
20:58<Sacro:#openttd>also <3 classical music
20:58*Sacro:#openttd is now playing: Griegg - Cencerto For Piano And Orchestra In A Minor OP 16
20:59<ln:#openttd>It's even quite much TTD-style music.
20:59<Sacro:#openttd>some of those tracks are in LoMo
21:00<Sacro:#openttd>we can either a) use the midi files
21:01<Sacro:#openttd>or b) timidity and freepats them into ogg files
21:01<ln:#openttd>oh for the LoMo comment
21:01<Sacro:#openttd>yeah, iirc LoMo has some joplin
21:03<ln:#openttd>that's like the best freely distributable TTD-style music we're ever going to find, and it's in midi format.
21:03<Sacro:#openttd>I personally would use freepats and have it in ogg
21:03<Sacro:#openttd>want me to reboot into Linux and sample em?
21:03<Sacro:#openttd>see how good I can get them?
21:04<Sacro:#openttd>and perhaps get them into some kind of plan for 0.7.0
21:04<ln:#openttd>i'm currently playing those with timidity, but dunno what patterns it is using.
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21:04<Sacro:#openttd>well in theory the music isn't copyrightable
21:05<Sacro:#openttd>but the perfomance is
21:05<Sacro:#openttd>so if i was to do them now inn windows, creative mihgt have something to say
21:05<Sacro:#openttd>with me using their soundfonts
21:05<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>surely composing sheet music is copyrightable
21:05<Sacro:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but all that stuff is well out of date
21:05-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:06<Sacro:#openttd>joplin died in 1917
21:06<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>that'll suffice in most countries, yes ;)
21:07<ln:#openttd>was it already 95 years in the US and A, or just going to be?
21:07<Sacro:#openttd>still 50 i htink
21:07<Sacro:#openttd>or perhaps 75
21:07<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>that'll only affect new recordings anyway
21:08<Sacro:#openttd>well no
21:08<Sacro:#openttd>they wanted to increase it to cover old walt disney stuff
21:08<Sacro:#openttd>he died in 1966
21:08<Sacro:#openttd>so if it is 50 years it'd be PD by now
21:09<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>that'll be legally highly questionable
21:09<ln:#openttd>aren't the *recordings* copyrights a little different than the other kind?
21:09<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes, recordings are 50 years from the time of recording
21:09<Sacro:#openttd>"The claim that "pre-1923 works are in the public domain" is correct only for published works; unpublished works are under federal copyright for at least the life of the author plus 70 years."
21:10<Sacro:#openttd>ln: yes, we couldn't just use a pre-exisitng mp3 of his performance without permission
21:10<Sacro:#openttd>but we could however use his music to make our own
21:10<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Sacro: yes, because the laws at the date of publishing are under effect
21:10<Sacro:#openttd>ie using their midi file and freepats
21:10<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>later laws cannot affect this publishment anymore
21:11<ln:#openttd>why not, when the time was increased from 50 to 70 over here, also the stuff already in kind-of-PD became copyrighted again
21:12<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>once something gets into PD, it cannot get un-PD'ed anymore, it's the rule of the shorter term
21:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>like you cannot revoke a license unless the license itself states that it can be revoked
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21:26<Sacro:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: thoughts?
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21:26<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>what thoughts?
21:27<Sacro:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: on the music
21:27<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i have not listened to the music
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21:33<ln:#openttd>here's one of them converted with timidity (unknown patterns):
21:36<Sacro:#openttd>ln: not bad :)
21:36<Sacro:#openttd>bit honky-tonk though :\
21:36<welshdragon:#openttd>hmm,l interesting
21:37<ln:#openttd>yeah it sounds synthesized at some points.
21:37<welshdragon:#openttd>is timidity a music composer?
21:38<Sacro:#openttd>welshdragon: no
21:41<ln:#openttd>software synthesizer
21:44<ln:#openttd>i remember seeing a web page about a DVD full of instrument sounds (for the purpose of synthsizing midi), price tag about 5000 €.
21:44<ln:#openttd>could have been more than one DVD.
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21:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>there are even more expensive ones
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 17 00:00:59 2008