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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-19

---Logopened Wed Nov 19 00:00:03 2008
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02:35<gynter>hello, when can I make something like this, in openttd?
02:38<planetmaker>morning folks
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02:40<planetmaker>gynter: you can - just depends how many tiles you want to use for it :)
02:41<planetmaker>there are no diagonal roads and I haven't ever seen a patch for it and no one discuss it earnestly either.
02:41<gynter>ye thats sad
02:41<gynter>diagonal tunnels and bridges would be good too
02:41<gynter>is there patch for those?
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02:43<@petern>"isometric" worlds don't really lend themselves to diagonals
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03:16<planetmaker>petern: isometric view in itself doesn't say anything about a rotational thing. It just excludes scaling due to distance effects :P Sure enough, in games' reality it holds true, though :)
03:17-!-Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggs-work
03:17-!-DASPRiD|off is now known as DASPRiD
03:18<@Celestar>a female austronaut lost her "handbag" yesterday during an EVA :P
03:19-!-DASPRiD is now known as DASPRiD|off
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03:20<planetmaker>top of the loss-list, I assume, are space lipstick and a beauty mirror? ;)
03:20-!-DASPRiD is now known as DASPRiD|off
03:21<@Celestar>nah, it was full of tools
03:21<@Celestar>nail clippers, etc. :P
03:21<planetmaker>:P got a link?
03:21<@Celestar> has a small story
03:21<@Celestar>and several other newspapers
03:22<planetmaker>I only briefly scimmed over spiegel and didn't see it :)
03:22<planetmaker>thx mate
03:22<@petern>planetmaker, no that's orthogonal vs perspective rendering...
03:22<@Celestar>i think it was on nasa tv as well
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03:24<planetmaker>petern: hm, then I might have till now understood "isometric" wrongly :) Thx for pointing out, you're right.
03:24<planetmaker>it's more restrictive than I thought.
03:25<@Celestar>60° 60° 90°
03:25<@Celestar>that's isometric (=
03:26<@Celestar>why am I always hungry? :S
03:26<Zahl>cause you never eat
03:28<planetmaker>hm... I think strictly speaking OpenTTD might not be isometric as the diagonals (e.g. tile borders) are not 60° but something like 45° (or am I wrong again?) off the vertical.
03:28<@petern>you are wrong :)
03:28<planetmaker>Celestar: that's because of the omni-present low-carb, low-fat, low-protein diet. Very unhealthy :)
03:28<@petern>it's not isometric
03:28<@petern>it's trimetric
03:29<planetmaker>hm? You say OpenTTD is tri-metric?
03:29<gynter>it was a toolbag
03:29<gynter>not handbag'
03:30<gynter>didn't knew that..
03:30<@petern>i meant axonomic
03:30<@petern>hmm, no
03:30<planetmaker>well, wiki tells that isometric projection is an axonometric one :)
03:31<@petern>axonometric covers isometric anyway, hehe
03:31<@petern>and it explains the reasons why computer graphics are the way they are :p
03:31<planetmaker>yep :)
03:32<planetmaker>dimetric projection is it :)
03:32<DASPRiD>pm \o/
03:33<planetmaker>moin DASPRiD
03:33*Celestar burps
03:33<DASPRiD>pm: see :)
03:34<planetmaker>I'd say: congrats, DASPRiD :)
03:34<DASPRiD>we have no snow in germany, but at least on my website ;)
03:34<@Celestar>there IS snow in Germany ...
03:35<DASPRiD>Celestar, not in the places i life :)
03:35<@Celestar>where do you live?
03:35<DASPRiD>and bonn
03:35<@Celestar>the warmer regions (=
03:35<@Celestar>I'll be in Bonn on Saturday
03:35<DASPRiD>oh heh
03:36<DASPRiD>what are you doing there?
03:36<@Celestar>Watching the Ballroom World Championship ;)
03:36<DASPRiD>oh :x
03:37<planetmaker>Celestar: is it a dancing competition?
03:37<planetmaker>classic or latin or both?
03:37<@Celestar>I got a 58 EUR ticket from Munich to Bonn and back. good price.
03:37<DASPRiD>pm: you'd loose, nevermind :P
03:37<@Celestar>planetmaker: classic
03:37<planetmaker>nice :) Does your girlfriend take part? ;)
03:38<@Celestar>nope, she comes with me (=
03:38<planetmaker>my girlfriend doesn't like dancing :S
03:38<@Celestar>now that's a first :D
03:39<DASPRiD>i have no girlfriend :S
03:40<gynter>There's snow in Estonia too
03:40<gynter>second day in snow already :P
03:40<@Celestar>O_o the ISS needs a spacewalk just to lubricate the bearings of the SARJs?
03:40<@Celestar>this whole design is totally fucked up
03:43<planetmaker>hehe. The design is 30 years old :P
03:44<@Celestar>"The correct way to build a space station is to design a heavy-lift launch vehicle and use it to launch the station to space *in one piece*"
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03:45<gynter>push it using lasers
03:45<@Celestar>an Saturn V is enough.
03:45<@Celestar>Skylab has proven that
03:45<@Celestar>in 1973!
03:45<@Celestar>single launch space station
03:46<@Celestar>about the same usable volume as the ISS
03:46<@Celestar>less than 1/25th of the cost (adjusted for inflation)
03:47<@Celestar>plus, when not needed, it could be shut down and deserted, and then be re-activated a year later
03:48<@Celestar>plus, it wasn't in the totally idotic orbit the ISS is in.
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03:49<@Celestar>it can't be used as a stopover or save haven for any usable destination
03:50<@Celestar>but we learnt one thing from the ISS: How not to build an orbital structure (=
03:50<DASPRiD>push it using emitting high-engery light
03:50<DASPRiD>(called photon-engine)
03:50<@Celestar>very nice for space transportation, pretty unuable for launching stuff
03:51<Qball>we just need a moon-base
03:51<@Celestar>that we do.
03:51<@Celestar>and it will NOT be built in 10-ton chunks
03:52<Qball>think of the most idiotic way you can build it, then add some stupid.. that will be it
03:52<benjamingoodger>I would have thought that the world's governments had better things to spend money on at this time than space exploration, which is --- let's face it --- largely pointless
03:52<@Celestar>I beg to differ
03:52<@Celestar>not to be rude, but that's an incredibly shortsighted attitude
03:53<benjamingoodger>I'm sure it is
03:53<benjamingoodger>but, hey, humans are shortsighted
03:53<benjamingoodger>I don't plan to live for more than sixty-five more years
03:53<@Celestar>people were sure the Earth was a disk ....
03:53<planetmaker>he, I noted in the wiki that it's actually a dimetric view instead of isometric - with a link to en.wikipedia now :)
03:54<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: you sound like an average politician :D
03:54<planetmaker>[09:47] <Celestar> "The correct way to build a space station is to design a heavy-lift launch vehicle and use it to launch the station to space *in one piece*" <-- why is that 'correct'?
03:54<planetmaker>and where do you get a Saturn V?
03:54<benjamingoodger>actually, nobody of significance has ever thought the earth was a disc
03:54<Gekz>it's not a disc
03:54<Gekz>it's clearly a hypercube
03:55<@Celestar>planetmaker: because its cheaper, more reliable, can actually be on time and gives you the added bonus of a heavy lifter
03:55<benjamingoodger>starting from the ancient greeks, everyone has always known it to be round
03:55<benjamingoodger>or nearly round, at least
03:55<Gekz>planetmaker: that's the universe
03:55<planetmaker>I still want a space escalator.
03:55<planetmaker>nasty nanotubes are not reliable enough yet... :S
03:55<Gekz>planetmaker: visualising a hypersphere, or at least attempting it, caused me to have a seizure
03:55<@Celestar>planetmaker: give us the material and we will build it (=
03:55<benjamingoodger>so, Celestar, what use do you think space exploration has?
03:55<Gekz>it caused my seizure to have a seirzure
03:56<Eddi|zuHause>if you build it, he will come
03:56<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: what use does exploration have ?
03:56<planetmaker>Gekz: most interesting fact: 7D sphere has the biggest surface to volume ratio for all dimensions ;)
03:56<planetmaker>IIRC that is ;)
03:57<Gekz>dont make me cry please
03:57<benjamingoodger>we're not going to get any benefit from lunar exploration in our lifetimes or indeed ever, with the exceedingly improbable exception of helium-3 mining
03:57<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: long story short: 1) to solve Earth's problems, 2) to turn us into a multi-planet species.
03:58<Qball>I want moonbase
03:58<Eddi|zuHause>Gekz: it's really easy, you just find a representation for arbitrary dimensions, and then have 7 dimensions as a simple special case
03:58<planetmaker>benjamingoodger: there was no advantage to finding a shiping route to india sailing westwards either.
03:58<benjamingoodger>planetmaker: bollocks
03:58<@Celestar>Mining the He-3 from the Moon at 4ppb is pretty stupid if it is readily available in huge quantities as Saturn.
03:58<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: no, planetmaker is absolutely right
03:58<benjamingoodger>the advantages have always been clearly stated
03:58<DASPRiD>Celestar, that doesnt solve our problems ;)
03:58<@Celestar>DASPRiD: many of them.
03:58<DASPRiD>even when you ship a million people to mars (very hard)
03:58<benjamingoodger>it was a faster route
03:59<DASPRiD>still 6 billiion remain here
03:59<@Celestar>DASPRiD: and?
03:59<DASPRiD>nothing solved
03:59<planetmaker>obviously not. And it was guarded by monsters and all.
03:59<DASPRiD>when on of the million is bill gates
03:59<benjamingoodger>why would you want to ship a million people to mars?
03:59<DASPRiD>then you solved many problems
03:59<@Celestar>the thing is not to ship a million people to mars.
03:59<benjamingoodger>there is nothing on mars except a huge carbon dioxide atmosphere
03:59<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: the only reason the spanish started to find a different route to india was that the portuguese already controlled the other one...
03:59<DASPRiD>Celestar, but?
03:59<benjamingoodger>and we have enough carbon dioxide already
03:59<@Celestar>the thing is to solve the energy problem we have HERE.
04:00<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: well, then... the advantage is clearly obvious nonetheless
04:00<DASPRiD>Celestar, how are they solved by multi-planet?
04:00<gynter>black humor (i'm not a racist): "Ship all the black people and jews, then problem is solved."
04:00<planetmaker>benjamingoodger: except... water, all kinds of ore, anything you need to sustain life :)
04:00<DASPRiD>planetmaker, yeah we just need some terraforming
04:00<@Celestar>DASPRiD: multi planet solves another problem..
04:00<gynter>it's a quote from somebody who I can't remember
04:00<DASPRiD>Celestar, tell
04:00<benjamingoodger>we don't yet have any actual proof that there is water on mars
04:00<@Celestar>DASPRiD: like surviving when Earth goes boom?
04:00<planetmaker>DASPRiD: start with small habitats.
04:00<gynter>but there's tractors on mars!
04:00<benjamingoodger>earth is not going to go boom, for god's sake!
04:01<DASPRiD>Celestar, well very long term vision :P
04:01<benjamingoodger>not before mars goes boom, at least
04:01<@Celestar>Earth goes boom about every 60 million years.
04:01<DASPRiD>but it doesnt solve energy problems does it?
04:01<@Celestar>DASPRiD: He-3 will solve the energy problem
04:01<gynter>Celestar, i don't care, I'm dead then
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>and it's 5 million years late :p
04:01<@Celestar>gynter: yeah, you sound even worse than the average politician.
04:01<planetmaker>yeah, we could climb trees again... :S
04:01<@Celestar>it's not about you, or me.
04:02<benjamingoodger>who, then?
04:02<planetmaker>Celestar: no curiosity, no vision.... :S
04:02<@Celestar>the generations that FOLLOW us.
04:02<Eddi|zuHause>i plan to live on for more than one generation
04:02<planetmaker>Celestar: I guess the "I have no girlfriend thread" in the forums is that big as it is for a reason. No reason for them to care...
04:02<benjamingoodger>it sounds incredibly heartless, I know, but I really don't care about them
04:02<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
04:02<Qball>benjamingoodger: :D
04:03<benjamingoodger>particularly since I plan never, ever to reproduce. I hate children
04:03<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: this has nothing to do with being heartless, this is being, excuse me, stupid.
04:03<planetmaker>benjamingoodger: ok, I may then consider you a selfish brag.
04:03<gynter>Celestar, well, currently theres 2 generations of farmers with iq < 70
04:03<@petern>he's a twat
04:03<benjamingoodger>planetmaker: as soon as you can define the word "brag"
04:03<planetmaker>I can't. Peter found the word ;)
04:04<benjamingoodger>don't let's degenerate into childish name-calling, you're not global warming theorists
04:04<DASPRiD>well, if america ends like in the movie idocracy, i don't really care if they make boom
04:04<gynter>farmers as brainless teens who thing that driving drunk with BMW is normal
04:05<benjamingoodger>anyway, I still don't see any practical use for further space exploration
04:05<@Celestar>what do you see practical use for?
04:05<DASPRiD>benjamingoodger, fun, joy and fluff
04:05<Qball>it keeps people busy
04:05<benjamingoodger>the earth is abundant in practically everything
04:05<planetmaker>30 years ago there was no practical use for lasers, 80 years ago, everything except small details were already discovered in physics.
04:05<Qball>make space exploration, not war
04:05<DASPRiD>Qball, playing openttd does that as well
04:05<benjamingoodger>we need never leave it for energy purposes
04:05<planetmaker>Max Planck was advised to study something else.
04:06<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: oil is running out..
04:06<benjamingoodger>there is still no practical use for lasers :P
04:06<@Celestar>coal a little later
04:06<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: given that the earths ressources are finite, that's proof that there's never going to be "abundance" of any ressource
04:06<benjamingoodger>I'm not talking about oil
04:06<gynter>maybe start using nuclear power?
04:06<DASPRiD>Celestar, yeah, especcialy after those pirates stole 300 million liters of raw oil ;)
04:06<@petern>surgery seems a pretty practical use for lasers
04:06<@Celestar>gynter: sounds good to me actually
04:06<Eddi|zuHause>gynter: nuclear power is not unlimited either
04:07<gynter>oh sorry, those greecrapguys are crying about nuclear power
04:07<planetmaker>cd drives... cashier scanners... distance warners...
04:07<gynter>but it'll give use time to find another good resrouce
04:07<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: well, I don't see our _exceedingly hot_ mantle bleeding away into space
04:07<DASPRiD>uran will run out in about 80 years
04:07<planetmaker>surgery, welding...
04:07<@Celestar>why protect the climate? we don't care about future generations anyway.
04:07<benjamingoodger>I also don't see our surface area decreasing
04:07<benjamingoodger>also, we have a big lump of rock going around us
04:08<Eddi|zuHause>they are even concerned that they don't have enough lithium to provide for all the electric cars in the next few decades
04:08<benjamingoodger>which occasionally makes water move up and down!
04:08<gynter>deny all vechiles by lawand waste problem is solved
04:08<gynter>also close all mcdonalds
04:08<planetmaker>[10:11] <benjamingoodger> also, we have a big lump of rock going around us <-- you think it's better exploitable than Mars?
04:08<Brianetta>Celestar: No need. Piracy at sea is on the rise.
04:08<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker and I have proven that wrong (=
04:08<gynter>k afk
04:09<benjamingoodger>planetmaker: well, considering I can do it for about £50, I'd say it's a bit more cost-effective
04:09*Celestar shakes head in utter disbelief
04:09<@Celestar>I really hope a 20km asteroid hits us SOON.
04:09<benjamingoodger>I'm sure it will
04:10<@Celestar>then most of you will be dead.
04:10<planetmaker>Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. - Laurence J. Peter
04:10<benjamingoodger>excellent quote
04:10<benjamingoodger>do I disagree with it? no.
04:10<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: so, you want to derive >70% of the energy demands of the human race from geothermal and tidal powers?
04:10<@Celestar>or make it 30km, then even more will be dead, likely all.
04:10<DASPRiD>geothermal, yeah, kill the planet ^_°
04:11<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: well, it's not like that's particularly difficult...
04:11<planetmaker>probably we wouldn't even notice such rock with sufficient warning time... :S
04:11<benjamingoodger>expensive, sure, but not difficult
04:11<@Celestar>planetmaker: we wouldn't. no chance.
04:11<@Celestar>planetmaker: with current technology (i.e. using H-bombs) we'd need about 140 years warning time.
04:11<benjamingoodger>we'd have to build, oh, let's see, two billion space shuttles to escape
04:12<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: we COULD move the astroid off the way ...
04:12<Eddi|zuHause>it's not that we have a significant amount of geothermal power stations yet...
04:12<planetmaker>benjamingoodger: that's not the point we advocate :)
04:12<planetmaker>you're fighting wind mills.
04:12<@Celestar>which is AGES easier to do if you have a smallish Mars base than from Earth.
04:12<planetmaker>best power source is still the sun. It's 1kW/m^2 as opposed to 5W/m^2 geothermal power.
04:13<benjamingoodger>we have more energy radiating onto the earth's land area each second than the entire human race uses a day
04:13<planetmaker>or was it 0.5 or even 0.05W/m^2 geothermal?
04:13<@Celestar>yeah, and no means to reasonably extract it.
04:13<benjamingoodger>much smaller than that
04:13<benjamingoodger>it's something like 400 kWh/day
04:13<benjamingoodger>per m^2
04:13<@Celestar>we still don't have any kind of solar cells that produce significantly more energy than their production takes.
04:14<benjamingoodger>actually, we do
04:14<benjamingoodger>it's called a stirling engine
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04:14<benjamingoodger>PV cells are appalling, though, I agree
04:14<@Celestar>OMG then you're still stuck with thermodynamic cycles.
04:14<Eddi|zuHause>and nobody talks about the disposal costs of this heavy metal contaminated stuff
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04:15<benjamingoodger>OMG you're still stuck with gravitation.
04:15<planetmaker>[10:16] <Celestar> we still don't have any kind of solar cells that produce significantly more energy than their production takes. <-- that's not really true anymore afaik
04:15<benjamingoodger>let's move to mars! there's no gravitation there
04:15<planetmaker>^^ neither true. it's 40% of earth's
04:15<benjamingoodger>I'm being sarcastic
04:15<@Celestar>planetmaker: yeah, the best ones (i.e. most cheap ones with about 8-12% efficiency) are around 1.2
04:16<@Celestar>planetmaker: this does NOT include shipping, installation and maintenance of cells.
04:16<benjamingoodger>to illustrate my annoyance at celestar insulting me because he doesn't like our universe's physical laws
04:16<planetmaker>[10:18] <benjamingoodger> I'm being sarcastic <-- obviously in lack of arguments ;)
04:16<benjamingoodger>I have plenty of arguments
04:16<@Celestar>we're eager to hear them, the count so far is: 0
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>none of which brought you any further in this discussion
04:17<benjamingoodger>my first argument is that space travel is currently a waste of money, one of its sole legitimate applications being energy generation, which is more cost-effective to do on earth
04:17<@Celestar>"one of its sole" ...
04:18<benjamingoodger>learn to speak english, you will get on better in life
04:18<Brianetta>Celestar: Why not? Most pairs of shoes have two soles...
04:18<@petern>"one of its sole" does, indeed, not make sense
04:18<benjamingoodger>"sole" is _not_ a singular-only adjective
04:18<@petern>sole is one. one of its one?
04:18*Brianetta has two soles
04:18<benjamingoodger>oh well
04:18<@petern>okay, that too :p
04:18*keyweed_ has two souls
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>import soul
04:19<benjamingoodger>from soul import trinity
04:19*planetmaker visited Seoul
04:19<@Celestar>there are _several_ reasons to go to space
04:19<benjamingoodger>right. reason number 1: show the commies we've got stones
04:19<benjamingoodger>reason number 2: show the chinese we've got stones
04:19<benjamingoodger>reason number 3: pipe-dream energy programmes
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>the most important reason to use _any_ new technology is to increase its efficiency for the next run
04:20<Brianetta>benjamingoodger: Space travel isn't about energy generation. Ultimately it's about colonisation. This planet will be pretty much full once we hit 30 billion. If we choose to cull ourselves, we're not really making any progress as a species.
04:20<benjamingoodger>reason number 4: futile planetary defence schemes
04:20<Qball>There is one good reason about space travel.. I want my frig*** moon base
04:20<planetmaker>Brianetta: he already announced he'll luckily not contribute to human race's growth.
04:20<Brianetta>Qball: I'd rather have a habitat that isn't down a gravity well.
04:21<@Celestar>1) Survival, 2) Preservation, 3) Growth, 4) Evolution, 5) Vision ...
04:21<benjamingoodger>the forces of nature have, so far, done an excellent job of keeping species in check
04:21<Brianetta>planetmaker: I probably won't in the reproductive sense.
04:21<benjamingoodger>when we run out of food, population growth stops
04:21<planetmaker>he :)
04:21<Qball>I don't care.. I want my moon layer
04:21<benjamingoodger>at that point, the problem is its own solution
04:22<Brianetta>So benjamingoodger believes that our species must remain constrained by our gravity well. That growth is fine until we reach the bounds of our fish tank.
04:22<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: where do you get the figure of 30 billion from? the last figure i heard is that current food (=engergy) supply would be expected to sustain 12 billion people (if properly distributed)
04:22<benjamingoodger>well, it's the only fish tank we have
04:22<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: Physical space, rather than food.
04:22<Brianetta>benjamingoodger: Unles we build more!
04:22<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: hydrofarming could extended to about 30 billion.
04:22<@Celestar>extend that*
04:23<planetmaker>[10:25] <benjamingoodger> well, it's the only fish tank we have <-- and it's not a good idea to look for a 2nd one?
04:23<benjamingoodger>just not when we're in a recession
04:23<Brianetta>There's enough metallic material in the solar system to build plenty of orbital habitats
04:23<@Celestar>the 2nd one has been staring into our face since 70s
04:23<planetmaker>oh... yeah, sure.
04:23<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: exactly WHEN we're in a recession.
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>we're always in some kind of recession
04:23<benjamingoodger>as I said at the beginning, we have better things to chuck money at
04:23<Brianetta>Money's an artificial construct.
04:23<@petern>like banks and car manufacturers...
04:23<Brianetta>You need to get past that thinking.
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>you mean a war in iraq and afghanistan?
04:24<@Celestar>yeah. like bailing out incompentent companies like Chrysler and GM?
04:24<planetmaker>yeah... corrupt bankers, inable automobile managers... right. futile wars...
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>which is easily costing more than all space programs in the world combined?
04:24<Brianetta>Money's just a means of rationing.
04:24<benjamingoodger>feeding the people we already have, for instance, rather than providing living space for hypothetical off-world people
04:24<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: in one year!
04:24<benjamingoodger>Brianetta: actually, it is not. go look up fiat currency and the banking system
04:24<Brianetta>benjamingoodger: I wouldn't be hypothetical, given the chance.
04:24<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: let's see... all space programs in the world combined cost less than GERMANY pays for the military (which is about nothing).
04:24<Brianetta>Just like all the hypothetical European Americans before colonisation.
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>well, 80% of germany's tax money goes into social security systems...
04:25<Brianetta>Like Lex Luthor said. Land. It's the one thing they're not making any more of.
04:25<benjamingoodger>well, actually, we just rounded up all our religious nut-jobs and piled them into a ship
04:25<@Celestar>There's also no momentum to solve the energy problem (read: fusion) ..
04:25<Qball>lets ship all criminal to the moon
04:25<@Celestar>no no no
04:25<Qball>with or withouth a moonbase
04:25<@Celestar>let them stay on earth (=
04:25<Brianetta>I want to play Elite for real (:
04:26<benjamingoodger>Celestar: so you want to form a new race of super-humans that excludes the inferior?
04:26<Qball>withouth moonbase it is
04:26<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: not really.
04:26<Brianetta>with the Hoopy Casinos mod
04:26<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: but the first few hundres of colonists will need to be carefully selected.
04:26<benjamingoodger>yes, yes
04:26<Brianetta>Celestar: nah... just rich enough
04:26<benjamingoodger>while the rest stay on earth to die
04:26<planetmaker>they need to be sufficiently trained. Like earlier you needed able ship crews to sail the atlantic and indic.
04:26<benjamingoodger>only the fittest to be part of the new world order, etc
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>if you ship all criminals to <remote place>, you'll end up with australia
04:27<@Celestar>you wanna die anyway, so what's the problem?
04:27<Brianetta>Australia's not so bad
04:27<benjamingoodger>I thought everyone wanted to die
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but we already have that ;)
04:27<@Celestar>do they?
04:27<benjamingoodger>I don't necessarily want to die in only sixty-five years
04:27<@Celestar>do they want humanity to die ?
04:27<Brianetta>benjamingoodger: Everybody's going to die; that's not to say everybody wants it.
04:27<Qball>I don't wnat to live to 65
04:27<@Celestar>Qball: more like 650?
04:28<benjamingoodger>can you honestly say that if you personally became unable to die that you'd be happy?
04:28<Brianetta>I'd accept that.
04:28<Qball>a few more years is sufficient
04:28<benjamingoodger>you'd get bored
04:28<@Celestar>my happiness has nothing to do with me being immortal or not.
04:28<Qball>then I load myself into the computer
04:28<Brianetta>It would suck to see friends grow old and die, but meh.
04:28<benjamingoodger>I refer you to Bicentennial Man
04:29<planetmaker>nice novel.
04:29<Brianetta>Different psychology.
04:29<@Celestar>it's not really unlikely that many of us talking here will live well above 100 years ...
04:29<Brianetta>He wasn't human.
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>it's like the Q continuum... if humanity is getting immortal, they'll invent more effective means of killing themselves...
04:29<benjamingoodger>he was eventually...
04:29<benjamingoodger>and biologically
04:29<benjamingoodger>and, in software, from the start
04:29<benjamingoodger>that was the whole point
04:30<Brianetta>I think you're confusing fiction with the point.
04:30<benjamingoodger>that was the point of the character
04:30<Brianetta>It was very entertaining, too. I never related to him.
04:31<@Celestar>I fail to see the connection to growing old or not?
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>the point is, you will never have an effective way space travel if you don't invest time and money into developing the ineffective space travel first
04:31<benjamingoodger>_my_ point is that being unable to die would be horrifying
04:31<@Celestar>I'm not talking about individual that are unable to die. I'm talking about the species.
04:31<Gekz>lol wtf
04:31<benjamingoodger>living forever would become torturously boring
04:32<Gekz>This is quite offtopic
04:32<planetmaker>ah, the usual red herring argument ;)
04:32<Gekz>Celestar: BAD OP
04:32<benjamingoodger>well, clearly the species has to die as well
04:32<Gekz>can I kill you all?
04:32<Gekz>I suppose that would be a crime >_>
04:32<benjamingoodger>technically, it would, yes
04:32<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: does it have to? why?
04:32<planetmaker>benjamingoodger: why 'clearly'?
04:32<planetmaker>why at all?
04:33<benjamingoodger>every species has to die eventually, to be replaced by a superior species that it evolved into
04:33<@Celestar>that's not dying? that's evolving.
04:33<DASPRiD>btw, we don't need to travel to other planets, planetmaker will make us a new one
04:33<@Celestar>DASPRiD: which will be quite a bit AWAY
04:33<Gekz>Who wants some stockings
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>humanity getting (near) immortal will effectively slow down the evolutionary cycles, so eventually the evolution of other species will surpass the one of humanity, and they're going to be left behind
04:33<@Celestar>you can'T put them in Earth's orbit.
04:33<planetmaker>I will tell you how long to wait for a new one and where to look :)
04:33<DASPRiD>Celestar, but you could replace earth with it :)
04:34<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause: as long as they care for us
04:34<benjamingoodger>Gekz: feeding time!
04:34<@Celestar>DASPRiD: there's by far not enough non-planetary material in the solar system to make another Earth-sized planet.
04:34<benjamingoodger>Celestar: try venus
04:34<benjamingoodger>it's very nearly the same size and density
04:34<@Celestar>"non planetary".
04:34<@Celestar>when last I looked, it was a planet.
04:34<benjamingoodger>no, I mean you don't need to make another planet ¬.¬
04:35<DASPRiD>Celestar, we could start with a tiny one
04:35<@Celestar>we have Mars. right
04:35<@Celestar>much easier to colonize
04:35<DASPRiD>mars is smaller than earth :/
04:35<benjamingoodger>frankly, mars is boring IMO
04:35<benjamingoodger>CO2 atmosphere, rapidly leaking into space
04:35<benjamingoodger>solid core
04:35<DASPRiD>or how about mirror-erth? just hard to reach ;)
04:36<@Celestar>DASPRiD: unstable.
04:36<benjamingoodger>low temperature, iron-rich but not much else
04:36<@Celestar>if you mean one in the L3 point.
04:36<DASPRiD>Celestar, yeah i know the physics facts that a mirror earth is not possible :P
04:36<benjamingoodger>you just need to breed plants that can survive at 400 degrees and dump them on venus, and wait for them to produce an oxygen atmosphere
04:36<DASPRiD>Celestar, correct
04:36<@Celestar>DASPRiD: a smallish one would be possible.
04:36<planetmaker>benjamingoodger: sure. Much easier than having lichen survive on 10 mbar CO2 atmosphere...
04:37<DASPRiD>Celestar, so lets send our moon there
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: and then wait 4 billion years for terraforming to kick in?
04:37<DASPRiD>Eddi|zuHause, we have time ;>
04:37<benjamingoodger>meh, plants on venus or lichen on mars, they'll both take the same time
04:38<benjamingoodger>I just think venus is more interesting
04:38<@Celestar>I thought you wanted neither?!
04:38<planetmaker>I guess he wants an example where he can say 'impossible'.
04:39<benjamingoodger>I don't want either
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04:39<@Celestar>planets could basically grow on Mars now.
04:39<benjamingoodger>it's a waste of my money at this time
04:39<@Celestar>it's a waste of money subsidising wind power plants.
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04:39<benjamingoodger>I want clean energy using existing terrestrial technology
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>even if you could plant some kind of stable lifecycle into venus, it can't ever be water based (for physical reasons), and thus never possible to sustain human life
04:39<benjamingoodger>I want socialised healthcare that doesn't kill you in hospital
04:39<planetmaker>yep. Get a chimney and chop down some trees.
04:40<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: it could. put the human colonies underground.
04:40<benjamingoodger>I want an education system that brings out the best in every student
04:40<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: we HAVE socialised healthcare.
04:40<benjamingoodger>Celestar: not worldwide
04:40<benjamingoodger>also, the UK's socialised healthcare system is appalling
04:41<planetmaker>then let those people sort it out in the countries who don't have. It's their governement. Not ours. People choose their government.
04:41<benjamingoodger>I imagine the german system is far better
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>we don't even have worldwide food distribution, how do you expect that to work with health systems?
04:41<benjamingoodger>actually, most people don't choose their government
04:42<benjamingoodger>their government is chosen by the people with the most guns, or petrodollars, or the most charismatic method of reading the koran
04:42<benjamingoodger>or the bible...
04:42<planetmaker>you want to force their luck onto them? Look at Iraq and Afghanistan and think again.
04:42<benjamingoodger>no, I do not
04:42<planetmaker>so... what's the point then?
04:42<benjamingoodger>and we both know that those wars weren't about democracy
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>every people gets the government they deserve
04:42<benjamingoodger>there's no point, it's a side issue
04:43<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: I'd like to believe you don't really mean that
04:43<planetmaker>it's true to some degree.
04:43<planetmaker>Are you willing to become in volved in politics, benjamingoodger ?
04:43<planetmaker>Are you willing to run as PM?
04:43<planetmaker>No? Well, then...
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't think you deserve your government, there is _ALWAYS_ a way to get involved to change it
04:44<@Celestar>Are you willing to be involved in anything outside your own home?
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>even in dictatorships
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>dictators do need personell to support them
04:44<benjamingoodger>the point is that we have problems that can't be solved with space exploration, and other problems that can be solved with far cheaper and easier methods than methods involving space exploration
04:44<@Celestar>most dicatatorships didn't step aside, they were thrown over. By people who care.
04:44<benjamingoodger>I am willing to run for prime minister, yes. I have even prepared a lengthy manifesto that I don't currently have on this machine
04:45<benjamingoodger>but if you are a woman with children, living in afghanistan, then you have no choice in your government --- it is decided by which of the local islamo-fascists (I hate using that term, it makes me sound like a Daily Mail reader) has the biggest munitions budget
04:46<planetmaker>you always have a choice.
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>so what? there are also means to improve your own munitions budget
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>if that's what it takes to change the government
04:46<benjamingoodger>*shakes head sadly*
04:47<planetmaker>Mostly there's no "I want it all and I want it now" way though.
04:48<planetmaker>you need to convince other people of your view.
04:49<benjamingoodger>I think the aforementioned afghanistani women have tried that
04:49<planetmaker>and then even a woman in Afganistan _can_ do things. Remember Butho in Pakistan?
04:49<benjamingoodger>it usually results in stonings.
04:49<benjamingoodger>unfortunately, I will never be elected for prime minister, because the UK's ludicrous two-party system will never elect anyone but Labour or the Tories, and I'd sell both my lungs to raise money for neo-nazis before joining either of those parties
04:50<planetmaker>so you're not really willing to stand up for your opinion and try to convince people?
04:50<benjamingoodger>oh, sure I am
04:50<planetmaker>(the latter is the important part)
04:50<benjamingoodger>it's just that, as I'm not a moron, I know that few will listen to me and fewer will agree
04:51<planetmaker>then you must believe that your idea is not very convincing ;)
04:51<@Celestar>hm ..
04:51<benjamingoodger>it's not very convincing, no
04:51<benjamingoodger>good ideas usually aren't, that's why democracy is so flawed
04:51<@Celestar>I like the idea of floating cities on Venus :)
04:52<planetmaker>so... either all other people are stupid or your idea isn't that good after all :)
04:52<benjamingoodger>floating on what?
04:52<benjamingoodger>actually, the former is statistically correct
04:52<benjamingoodger>people with an IQ of <110 or so are known to be incapable of making rational political decisions
04:53<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: on the exceedingly dense atmosphere.
04:53<@Celestar>all you need is a large cushion filled with Nitrogen.
04:53<benjamingoodger>breathing what, then?
04:53<@Celestar>er ... oxygen?
04:53<benjamingoodger>generated by?
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>that's a secondary problem to provide an internal atmosphere :)
04:53<@Celestar>by photosynthesis?
04:53<planetmaker>CO2 -> C + O2?
04:54<benjamingoodger>planetmaker: that's not even close
04:54<@Celestar>there is PLENTY of CO2 on Venus.
04:54<benjamingoodger>so, in fact, you like the idea of a floating suburbia on venus :)
04:54<china>im thinking about building another solar robot
04:54<china>the cats will love it
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04:54<Eddi|zuHause>synthetic photosynthesis would be cool
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04:55<benjamingoodger>unfortunately, if we knew how to do that, we wouldn't have an energy shortage
04:55<@Celestar>in an altitude of 50km, Venus has a pressure of about 1 bar and a temperature of around 300K
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>what makes you think that? even if we could do it, it'd take colossal amounts of energy to begin with
04:55<planetmaker>we have sufficient technology. It's only not applied to its fullest extend.
04:55<china>EddizuHause> synthetic photosynthesis would be cool
04:55<china>oh, sorry
04:55<planetmaker>... in order to provide sustainable energy.
04:56<china>i was about to write: yes indeed.
04:56<china>actually, i have constructed a planting robot, speaking of wich
04:56<@Celestar>and air is a lifting gas on Venus.
04:56<benjamingoodger>I am aware of the basic principles of displacement
04:56<china>it doesnt really have anything to do with the photosynthesis, though its.. well, a big project.
04:56<benjamingoodger>I'm not eight
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: well, basically, you'd build a city within a giant balloon
04:58<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: more on top of it, but yeah, that's the basic idea.
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>just that the outer hull of the ballon must be able to sustain sulphuric acid ;)
04:58<china>i need to read up on synthesis.
04:58<benjamingoodger>oh, yeah, I forgot about the H2SO4
04:58<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: and?
04:59<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: any decent rubber can sustain that ...
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>nothing and... just wanted to point that out ;)
05:00<china>excluding the missile drawings.
05:00<@Celestar>we could use a similar technology on Saturn. An automated, floating plant that extracts He-3 and H-2 from the atmosphere.
05:00<planetmaker>You would probably go to Enceladus or Europa.
05:00<planetmaker>IF you go that far.
05:00<benjamingoodger>china: start with 6CO2 + 12H2O -> C6H12O6 + 9O2 ... I think
05:00<china>benjamingoodger: wait what.
05:00<@Celestar>planetmaker: for the He-3 and H-2 ?
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05:01<planetmaker>Celestar: for water ;)
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05:01<china>benjamingoodger: i have no idea what you just said.
05:01<@Celestar>planetmaker: I want fusion fuel, not water :D
05:01<benjamingoodger>china: I think that's the formula for photosynthesis...
05:01<DASPRiD>probably we should try to terraform the moon as a testcase ;P
05:01<benjamingoodger>carbon dioxide + water -> glucose + oxygen
05:01<planetmaker>Helium is scarce on any minor body. But you might still strip it of Saturn itself.
05:01<@Celestar>DASPRiD: difficult, it can't hold any reasonable atmosphere.
05:01<benjamingoodger>not sure about the multipliers
05:01<china>benjamingoodger: aha. well, now you know much i know. :D i need to re-read it, study it from a basic scholar lever, so to speak.
05:02<DASPRiD>Celestar, well, at least some paraterraforming
05:02<china>now you know how much i know*
05:02<benjamingoodger>it's poorly understood, hence the lack of artificial implementations
05:02<china>does artificial photosyntesis exist?
05:02<benjamingoodger>at this stage.
05:02<@Celestar>benjamingoodger: it's not poorly understood, just our means to do it artificially are not efficient enough.
05:03<benjamingoodger>that makes it poorly understood by my book
05:03<DASPRiD>Celestar, i really wonder, at current state of technology, para-terraforming of the moon would be possible
05:03<china>the robot im building doesnt really have anything with the artifical photosynthesis to do. though the idea comes from nasa, where theyre actually trying to build an fully automated planting robot
05:03<china>where the ideas come together.. of some sort
05:04<benjamingoodger>wouldn't that be fairly simple?
05:04*china realizes he doesnt have that much to contribute
05:04<planetmaker>DASPRiD: you'd basically need to build habitats.
05:04<@Celestar>DASPRiD: yes of course
05:04<planetmaker>Probably build caves and seal the surface.
05:04<DASPRiD>planetmaker, that is meant by that
05:04<china>well, yes. but still, its a fun project for a technician like me.
05:04<@Celestar>it's been possible since the 70s
05:04<benjamingoodger>dig hole, deposit seed, cover hole, irrigate
05:04<FauxFaux>Story of my life.
05:04<@Celestar>if some idiot hadn't decided to build the stupid shuttle, we'd have moon habitats by now
05:04<china>benjamingoodger: well, that part is coverd, yes. though, there are still issues about recognizing a good from a bad seed/plant/soil.
05:04<benjamingoodger>I bet I can design an apparatus to do that, however, without the age of microchips
05:05<DASPRiD>Celestar, ? :x
05:05<china>and using that for "eternity" in a space ship without maintainance.
05:05<benjamingoodger>we don't use a seed-by-seed quality control system on earth
05:05<benjamingoodger>is it vital to do so in space?
05:05<china>depends on what quality a geen based seed may be when used.
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>china: "Die guten ins Töpfchen, die schlechten ins Kröpfchen"
05:06<benjamingoodger>*strokes proto-beard*
05:06<china>Eddi|zuHause: excuse me?
05:06<china>benjamingoodger: :)
05:06<china>benjamingoodger: im building my own here in my house, and so far i have just "pre-invented" the automation process.
05:06<DASPRiD>Celestar, i wonder how good the ping from moon to earth is... still playable?
05:06<Eddi|zuHause>china: it's part of the fairy tale "Aschenputtel" [Cinderella]
05:06<benjamingoodger>DASPRiD: nope :(
05:07<china>Eddi|zuHause: ah, ok.
05:07<@Celestar>DASPRiD: well, only counting the signal time it's around 2400ms
05:07<DASPRiD>hm, that sucks for online gaming
05:07<DASPRiD>they have to find a solution for that
05:07<china>Eddi|zuHause: relevance?
05:07<Qball>gives in game lag a new meaning
05:07<@Celestar>er ... subspace communication?
05:07<benjamingoodger>DASPRiD: you can increase the speed of light if you like
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>china: it's about sorting the good peas from the bad peas ;)
05:07<DASPRiD>Celestar, how'd be the ping then?
05:07<china>benjamingoodger: the thing is, i know a helluva lot about robotics. though, my knowledge now ends at the chemistry and life processing ..stuff
05:07<@Celestar>ask LaForge
05:08<china>that i really need to study.
05:08<china>Eddi|zuHause: ah. :-)
05:08<china>well, thats actually the big issue in automated growth.
05:08<benjamingoodger>china: you are to be congratulated, I wish I knew much about robotics
05:08<china>you -can- make a perfect pea, and the cover the gene and chemistry index
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05:09<china>though, the definition of the perfect pea -after 10 000 000 geneations of growth- is yet to be seen.
05:09<DASPRiD>benjamingoodger, irc bots are robots as well, so you surely also know a bit about robotics ;)
05:09<china>"the monkey and humanity" is a well knows phrase (in swedish) for this problem.
05:10<benjamingoodger>DASPRiD: actually, I know absolutely nothing about irc bots, beyond what knowledge I have reverse-engineered from using them
05:10<china>and as far as the study goes, the pea and the monkey-human issue is a NP problem.
05:10<DASPRiD>oh, hehe
05:10<china>benjamingoodger: oh, you create eggdrops? :)
05:10<DASPRiD>i coded my own irc bot \o/
05:10<benjamingoodger>I have absolutely no idea what you just said
05:10<china>oh, ok
05:10<china>never mind.
05:11<benjamingoodger>it would probably make more sense in swedish
05:11<china>we actually used a megahal code for a speech robot
05:11-!-Zorni [] has joined #openttd
05:11*china spends his free time building missiles and solar driven cat toys
05:11<benjamingoodger>yes... so you've said
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05:13<china>btw, i must ask: what is really the main discussion in this channel
05:13<DASPRiD>world and stuff
05:13<china>regarding openttd; the programming or just the game?
05:13<benjamingoodger>mostly the latter from what I can tell. most of the development seems to happen in the forum
05:14<planetmaker>china: both ;)
05:14*china simply enjoys trains.
05:15<benjamingoodger>that sentence was grammatically correct...
05:15<benjamingoodger>technically, you were in the third person, because of the usage of the noun rather than "I", despite talking about yourself
05:15<benjamingoodger>stupid english language... *mutters*
05:16<china>stupid autocad electrical
05:18<china>-550MB disc space - yey!
05:18*Celestar prefers CATIA
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05:18<benjamingoodger>that's "disk", when talking about hard disks (but not compact discs), since you seem to be interested in improving your english
05:18<benjamingoodger>and is that negative?
05:18<china>once payed for (!): mechanical+electrical+inventor is great, at least for my needs.
05:19<china>benjamingoodger: yes, negative space. and thank you. one tries.
05:19<china>and i still need to fix the `´'^¨
05:19<china>but thats a rather irrelevant thing on IRC.
05:19<planetmaker>eh... disc is as valid as disk.
05:20<china>i used "disc" since its a direct translation of the swedish word and meaning.
05:20<benjamingoodger>the convention is "disk" when talking about hard disks, since these are not discs
05:20<benjamingoodger>and "disc" in british english, when talking about disc-shaped objects
05:20<china>isnt that why we used "disc" in the first place?
05:21<china>the swedish word for the HDD is "disk", just because "disk" refers to the disc shaped object.
05:21<planetmaker>didn't know _that_ differentiation.
05:21<china>all though, im not in the position to argument language.
05:21<benjamingoodger>china: that'll be US English then... they have "disk" for disc-shaped objects
05:22<china>and i have to excuse myself, since thats something you people (yes you) take more serious the others on IRC.
05:22<benjamingoodger>(tell me to stop correcting you when it becomes annoying)
05:22<benjamingoodger>excuse me, my cat wants attention
05:22*china gives benjamingoodger one of his homemade cat toys
05:22<benjamingoodger>spotty doesn't seem to like toys
05:23<china>highly crimical brothers.
05:23<benjamingoodger>he just likes food, sleep and slow-moving rodents, and for some reason, for me to stroke him on the head constantly
05:23<benjamingoodger>aww, sweet
05:24<china>they are six months by now
05:24<china>epic site.
05:24<benjamingoodger>eh, quite
05:25<benjamingoodger>it's interesting how humans find other species' babies "cute"
05:25<benjamingoodger>chimpanzees, which of course are our nearest relatives, find other species' babies to be a tasty meal
05:25<SpComb>but we do horrible things to our food before eating it
05:25<benjamingoodger>yes, but those are all adults
05:26<china>time to make some food
05:26<benjamingoodger>and we don't eat species that continue looking like human babies, such as cats, small rodents and most dogs
05:26<@petern>"most of the development seems to happen in the forum" < hehe, you have no idea
05:26<china>by the way, english uses "sambo", right?
05:27<benjamingoodger>you may be introducing me to words in my own language that I don't know
05:27<benjamingoodger>if you are, please stop, as it frightens me :P
05:27<china>haha :D
05:27<@petern>racial term? never heard of it
05:28<@petern>"Sambo is a racial term for a person with mixed Amerindian and African heritage in the Caribbean, also for a black or South Asian person in the United States and the United Kingdom. It is considered a racial slur in the U.S. and the UK, but not in the Caribbean."
05:28<benjamingoodger>that explains why I've never heard of it
05:28<benjamingoodger>there are no black people here
05:29<@petern>do i bother beating my current car insurance people up
05:29<@petern>or do i just switch
05:29<benjamingoodger>to what degree will openttd development suffer, if you are incarcerated for assault?
05:30<benjamingoodger>in that case, beat the bastards to death
05:30<@petern>however, beating them up would mostly involve trying to convince them to lower their quote
05:30<@petern>quite fruitless, i suspect
05:30<benjamingoodger>how much is the quote? and to insure what? against what?
05:31<@petern>car insurance, as i said
05:31<benjamingoodger>ah yes
05:31<@petern>they quoted £560
05:31<benjamingoodger>that's better than mine...
05:31<@petern>i've got another quote for £290
05:31<@petern>at that difference, customer loyalty can be forgotten...
05:32<benjamingoodger>what's the car?
05:32<@petern>1.8 citroen xantia
05:32<@petern>not exactly known for being a performance beast
05:32<@petern>i did get one quote for £1300...
05:32<benjamingoodger>I have a 1.6 nissan primera
05:32<benjamingoodger>the best quote is for £950
05:33<benjamingoodger>and that's with me as a named driver, with my parents as primary policyholders
05:33<@petern>my first car cost £400 to insure
05:33<benjamingoodger>it's infuriating
05:33<@petern>0.9 fiat uno :D
05:33<@petern>it was cheap, that was the point
05:34<benjamingoodger>well, my primera is hardly a speed-machine already
05:34<@petern>cheap car with cheap insurance to build up the no claims
05:34<benjamingoodger>in fact, it's severely underpowered
05:34<@petern>some policies give ncb to named drivers these days
05:34<benjamingoodger>but I have to pay stupid money to insure it just because I'm eighteen... it's maddening
05:35<davis->lol Celestar
05:35<benjamingoodger>heheh, good one
05:35<@petern>the £400 was when i was 18
05:35*benjamingoodger cannot think of the insurance price when he gets his new car next year...
05:36<china>not to be modest
05:36<davis->anyone here plays guitar? //offtopic
05:36<china>im unemployed, but definetly feel confident on the rest of my life
05:36<china>building robots and plying jazz.
05:36*china np: michael bublé - feeling good
05:36-!-china is now known as appe
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>davis-: Brianetta does
05:37<davis->alright thanks
05:37<@petern>i played a guitar once
05:37<@Rubidium>you want to say that the rest of the "talking" wasn't off topic?
05:37<@petern>once or twice
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>bah... Belugas i meant
05:37<benjamingoodger>I'm unemployed, but I'm heading for a master's degree in business administration, and am also starting a publishing company and a charitable organisation producing creative-commons literature, and am also writing a novel. and I'm extremely insecure about the rest of my life, leading to huge depression
05:38<benjamingoodger>modesty pah!
05:38<appe>itl work out
05:38<appe>just keep yourself busy
05:38<benjamingoodger>how could I possibly be any more busy?
05:38<@petern>ah, about to waste several years of your life studying
05:39<benjamingoodger>yes I am
05:39<appe>im trying to do as much as i can of my time, building, repairing instruments and robots (im collecting older claviatures), starting my own business, making music, entertaining my girl
05:39<appe>study is never a waste
05:39<benjamingoodger>it is when you're doing an MBA
05:39<appe>as long as you want to, at least.
05:39<benjamingoodger>master's in business administration
05:39<davis->iam in year 12 out of 13 and ive less lessons than in year 5
05:39<davis->hail the education system
05:39<benjamingoodger>davis-: further education woop
05:40<appe>o' lord.
05:40<benjamingoodger>the only point of doing an MBA is to put the letters "MBA" on your CV
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>13 years of school... you poor child
05:40<davis->haha "abitur" :P
05:40<benjamingoodger>I'm in my fourteenth
05:40<@petern>business administration sounds like a jumped name for receptionist, to me :p
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>well... we were intelligent enough to do it in 12 ;)
05:41<davis->times change Eddi
05:41<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but your country has a competent education system
05:41<davis->iam not the one to blame :P
05:41<benjamingoodger>the British education system exists solely to prepare people for university
05:41<benjamingoodger>which, in turn, exists solely to make people more employable
05:41<benjamingoodger>we learn nothing of any use, it's all CV-mongering
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>how do you think that is different in germany?
05:42*appe does live on the university, but doesnt study
05:42<appe>im not yet 22, so.
05:42<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: I don't know, I just presumed it couldn't possibly be worse than GB
05:42<davis->german education system is kind of a mess
05:42<benjamingoodger>the real reason I'm going to university is to try and overcome my various social problems, and also so I can move to kent
05:44<benjamingoodger>I'd go to sweden to university, but I fear living in a country whose language I don't speak
05:44<appe>you know what? there is a thing thats so good about robotics and jazz
05:44<appe>and it's espresso.
05:44<davis->petern took bull hormone's
05:44<appe>it's a must for both parts. :)
05:45<benjamingoodger>I am aware that practically all swedes speak excellent english, but I would be extremely offended if I was a swede who had to deal with presumptuous englishmen all the time
05:45<davis->nvm :]
05:45<appe>benjamingoodger: im swedish, and my english is above average. still i have trouble with the spelling and stuff.
05:45<appe>or well, my language is good, i even do dialect. though the spelling is ..something else.
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05:46<appe>but yes, i like the fact that english is a big thing here
05:46<appe>and practically nobody feels offended by "not using swedish" in everything
05:46<appe>like the germans seem to.
05:46*appe notes "seem to" to not offend anyone.
05:47<benjamingoodger>but if I went over there with no knowledge of the language, and just presumed you'd all speak english for me, you'd be at least a little offended?
05:47<@Rubidium>mai ingrish iz alzo abov wold avridge ;)
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>germans get especially offended when people use "fancy" english words when there would be perfectly fine german words for the object
05:47<appe>Rubidium: ;)
05:47<appe>im not blaming them, it's just that our language aint that big of a deal for us, i guess
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: considering that at most 1/6th of the world population even learned english ;)
05:48<benjamingoodger>appe: I refer you to my above statement, which you may have missed
05:48<appe>benjamingoodger: no, not at all
05:48<appe>as far as i know, most swedes speak good english, and knows about the fact that most other people don't know swedish.
05:48<appe>any, at all.
05:49<benjamingoodger>yes, but surely if I came over there to live
05:49<benjamingoodger>and made no effort to integrate?
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05:49<Eddi|zuHause>german is the most spoken mother language in europe ;)
05:49<appe>benjamingoodger: as an englishman, no problem.
05:49<@Rubidium>then I'm not in the "most other people" group ;)
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>(i'd say about twice as english)
05:50<appe>benjamingoodger: as said, english is so well integrated. the people you would have trouble with is the older generation, if so.
05:50<@petern>benjamingoodger, did you happen to see the newsnight special just after obama was elected?
05:50<benjamingoodger>I'm not saying it would cause problems with communication
05:50<appe>benjamingoodger: me neither. i dont think people would feel offended by you talking the second most used language
05:50<benjamingoodger>petern: no, unfortunately I could only stay up watching the live footage on bbc 1 until he won california, and then collapsed
05:51<appe>swedes would be more offended by other swedes not talking any english at all.
05:51<@petern>benjamingoodger, it was the next day, mid-evening...
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05:51<@Rubidium>appe: that really depends on the situation
05:51<benjamingoodger>no, didn't see that
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>winning california? isn't that a) clear from the start, and b) when the really interesting part is already over=
05:51<@petern>watch and cringe...
05:51<benjamingoodger>that's why I went to bed after confirming it for myself
05:51<@Rubidium>if the staff of a Dutch supermarket start talking in German to me then that can be experienced as offending
05:51<benjamingoodger>cheers petern
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>are there so many germans shopping in the netherlands that this really happens?
05:53<davis->for frikandeln
05:54<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yes, especially at the coast in the vacation
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>petern: i don't understand a word he's saying
05:54<benjamingoodger>appe: when english people move to spain, for the cheap alcohol and the sunshine, they typically move to a town populated entirely by english people, do not bother learning spanish, and continue watching British television that they import via satellite
05:54<benjamingoodger>this is considered to be distasteful
05:54<@Rubidium>though at the border with Germany the Germans come by the thousands getting coffee ;)
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>err... yes, of course :p
05:55<benjamingoodger>similarly, when people from various places in asia move to great britain, there is a perception that they do not bother to learn english, interface only with existing asians, etc
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>and behind the border the police is collecting the coffee again ;)
05:55<benjamingoodger>and this is also considered problematic
05:56<benjamingoodger>so I would consider myself to be offending sweden if I moved to sweden with no knowledge of the language and little of the culture and way of life, and just carried on as I had done in england
05:57<@Rubidium>hmm... Eddi's assuming the wrong coffee I guess ;)
05:57<@petern>benjamingoodger, yeah, but it's racist to complain about our immigrants..
05:58<@Rubidium>anyhow, in the supermarket here about half of the coffee is coffee with german labels on it
05:58<@Rubidium>but I don't really care about that because I don't drink it anyways
05:59<benjamingoodger>hence the use of the _extremely_ non-committal "perception"
05:59<benjamingoodger>since I haven't seen anyone with non-white skin for months, except for the Nepalese guy in my accounting class who speaks excellent english, I can't vouch
05:59<@petern>where i live there's a "high" population of asian people
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>the number of chinese students increased dramatically here
06:00<@petern>heh, notable residents... germaine lindsay, one of the london suicide bombers
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>ha ha :p
06:01<ln>it's alright to live in sweden and not to integrate with the rest of the society, not to follow their rules.
06:01<benjamingoodger>oh, I forgot the endless chinese students, muttering to themselves, never speaking to anyone but each other
06:01<benjamingoodger>but it's racist to complain about them.
06:02<@Rubidium>of the psychology students at my university over half is German
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>that's not a wonder, psychology was invented by germans ;)
06:03<benjamingoodger>well, I suppose german psychologists have to learn somewhere
06:03<DASPRiD>yeah we germans are nice people :XY
06:04<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: and because of that they study it abroad?
06:04<benjamingoodger>nah, that's just residual cruelty
06:06<Brianetta>Last time I was in Germany, I was impressed by the willingness of the average German to at least try to meet me half way when I ran out of German.
06:06<benjamingoodger>everyone on earth does that
06:06<Brianetta>The French weren't like that at all... they loved to see the Englishman squirm.
06:06<benjamingoodger>we can communicate a frankly shocking about of data without the use of comprehensible words
06:07<benjamingoodger>oh, yes, the french...
06:07<ln>in Malmö (a swedish city) there are certain areas where ambulances refuse to go without being accompanied by police.
06:07<Brianetta>Malmö isn't a city. It's a piece of Ikea furniture. Duh.
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06:08<Brianetta>Ikea. It's Swedish for Ikea.
06:08<Gekz>Brianetta: lol.
06:08<Gekz>it seems if you live in Scandinavia, you live in Malmoe
06:08<Gekz>I only ever hear of this place.
06:08<Brianetta>Surely you've heard of Hell?
06:09<benjamingoodger>if you immigrate to scandinavia from somewhere really backward, rather, you go to malmo
06:09<Gekz>i've heard of Hell.
06:09<Gekz>I'm going to learn Swedish one day
06:09<Gekz>then go there for a while and ask myself
06:09<Gekz>wtf possessed me to go to Sweden
06:10<Gekz>then go to France and ask the same question
06:10<Gekz>then go home
06:10<Brianetta>Sweden is full of extremely fit females.
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>i'd think swedish should be really easy if you know english and german
06:10<Gekz>I'm studying German
06:10<Gekz>and Swedish looks far easier than German
06:11<Aali>actually, swedish is supposedly quite hard to learn
06:11<benjamingoodger>can't be as hard as finnish..
06:11<Aali>well, finnish isn't a language
06:11<Aali>its just gibberish
06:12<Brianetta>Aali: Levan Polka by Loituma tell you that?
06:12<Brianetta>The bit that was used for th eleek twirling meme was indeed gibberish
06:13<Gekz>haha Finnish
06:13<Gekz>Pirate Party.
06:13<Aali>seriously though, finnish people are hilarious when they're speaking in english
06:13<benjamingoodger>it's a very well designed language, however
06:13<Aali>because it still sounds like finnish
06:13<Gekz>languages arent designed
06:14<benjamingoodger>evolution has made it appear well-designed then
06:14<Gekz>French music is terrible people.
06:14<benjamingoodger>btw, esperanto and a few others were designed
06:14<Gekz>except like, one band
06:14<Gekz>benjamingoodger: constructed.
06:14<Gekz>esperanto, interlingua, volupuk, etc are conlangs
06:14<Gekz>the rest are just evolutions
06:15<benjamingoodger>you can't construct something before you design it
06:15<Gekz>mainly from Proto-indo-european
06:15<Brianetta>The myth of Intelligent Language
06:15<Gekz>benjamingoodger: you cant design without a plan
06:15<benjamingoodger>"in the beginning there was the ZAMENHOF"
06:16<benjamingoodger>"and the ZAMENHOF said, Let there be simplified conjugation. And it was so, and the ZAMENHOF saw that it was good. And that was the first day."
06:16<benjamingoodger>I could go on. pray I don't
06:19<benjamingoodger>or rather, "komence estis la ZAMENHOF, kaj li diris, "estu konjugaciado simpla. kaj tio okuzis, kaj li vidis ke gxi estis bona; kaj tio estis la unua tago" etc.
06:19<ln>13:13 < Aali> because it still sounds like finnish <-- yeah, except for the ones who actually speak good english
06:20<benjamingoodger>that happens with all strong accents, anyway
06:21<ln>Aali: on the other hand, swedes are notorious for thinking they speak good english, while they actually mix english and swedish grammar and words here and there, due to the similarities.
06:22<benjamingoodger>that's forgiveable so long as we can understand each other
06:23<benjamingoodger>I can understand appe despite his constant errors. it's not problematic
06:25<Aali>ln: thank you for taking it so personal and serious
06:25<Aali>can i go back to poking fun at finnish people that dont speak good english now?
06:26<benjamingoodger>don't mind ln, he's having a little tantrum
06:27<Aali>yeah, i noticed he's a little displeased with the world around him
06:29<@Rubidium>Aali: /ignore has been developed to battle such instances
06:29<@petern>so has /kb :D
06:30<ln>Aali: i was merely stating two facts, i took nothing personally.
06:30<Aali>i'm sure you didn't
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06:32<ln>my apologies.
06:34<@Celestar>1,009,697,871 /tftpboot/32bit/var/log/xinetd.log
06:34<@Rubidium>did it crash the server yet?
06:36<@Rubidium>Celestar: then what's the point ;)
06:37<@Rubidium>a quite big logfile... just logrotate it!
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: come again when you have another triplet in that number ;)
06:38<davis->thatnfra project isnt supported by openttd , is it? grf compatibility wise
06:38<davis->that infra*
06:38-!-roboboy [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
06:39<@Rubidium>depends on what it does and doesn't use of the GRF specs
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>a recent thread in the forum suggested that the main blocker to move the whole project to openttd was the lack of custom bridgeheads
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>which has nothing to do with grf support
06:41<davis->well i just seen some pretty impressing screenshots , so i wondered
06:42<appe>does openttd have mods?
06:43*appe want to build trains with the speed of light
06:43<SpComb>then you wouldn't even be able to see them
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06:43<Ammler>are the infra screen 100% from ingame?
06:44<benjamingoodger>where are these to be found?
06:44<Ammler>like the shore edges.
06:44<@Rubidium>appe: then make teleporters as shown by the openttdcoop guys
06:44<davis->12:43… Ammler: are the infra screen 100% from ingame?
06:44<davis->i dont know realy ..
06:47<Ammler>benjamingoodger: SAC screens?
06:47<benjamingoodger>...that's not showing any forums
06:47<benjamingoodger>do you have to log in to read it
06:47<appe>Rubidium: well, light speed may be too much, i want them to be "seen", but still really awesomeness fast.
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>the screenshots are said to be from a real game, no photoshopping
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>appe: afaik 65535 is the max speed
06:48<appe>thats more then enough
06:48<davis->12:47… benjamingoodger: ...that's not showing any forums
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>and in that case, it's a matter of 3 lines in a grf
06:48<davis->yesterday i could read it without an account
06:49<appe>how does one get mods into a singleplayer game? any extra software thats used, or is it a "grf" (or what ever you now call it)
06:49<davis->anyhow benjamingoodger
06:49<davis->screenshots aswell
06:50<benjamingoodger>thank you
06:50<appe>holy crap cat poo smells like ..poo.
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06:52<yorick> <-- first impressions?
06:53<appe>Rubidium: are there mods for it?
06:53<appe>not the speed itself, but in general
06:54<Ammler>davis-: ttartist has nicer ones :-)
06:54<davis->well , he made the forum acessable for registrated users only
06:54<davis->and iam to lazy to create some account now
06:54<Ammler> <-- does that work?
06:55<Ammler>it is worth to register :P
06:55<davis->leads me to the portal.php
06:55<davis->he must have changed it today ::p
06:55<davis->cause yesterday i still could read it all
06:56<@petern>yorick, why add a new water class?
06:56<@Celestar>IBM's dsm sucks
06:56<yorick>petern, to retain backward compatibility?
06:57<appe>one of the cats ate the solar panel from one of the beanbots
06:57<appe>i dont think thats rather healthy
06:58-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
06:59<davis->the bird is the word
07:00<@petern>wogan played some country version of 'word up' this morning
07:00<@petern>that was quite scary
07:00<Eddi|zuHause><Ammler> <-- does that work? <- it says i'm logged in [impressive, that must have been years ago], but still redirects me to portal.php
07:00<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: " with some graphics illusion. It's still work in progress though... " <-- implies to me, it is not a GRF :-)
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: no, it's a grf, but things like underground stations are graphical illusions
07:00<@petern>Ammler, you're wrong
07:01<@petern>ttd was built with illusions
07:01<@petern>the illusion that vehicles fit under bridges and tunnels
07:01<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you might need to login, after that, it should work.
07:01<davis->everybody knows that the bird is the word
07:05<benjamingoodger>right, time for college
07:05<benjamingoodger>good afternoon, ln
07:06<@petern>when college starts at 9 and finishes at 5, every day, i might respect students :p
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: well, i can view the threads and the pictures in the threads, but this direct link doesn't work
07:06<Ammler>well, it is the 2. screen
07:06<Ammler>of the postcard thread.
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i know these
07:07<benjamingoodger>1.15 start woot
07:07<Ammler>I am wondering about the rounded edge.
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>that's just a normal tile with a foundation
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>it's one of the optical illusions
07:10<Ammler>for those without login at ttartits:
07:11<@petern>not really an 'illusion'
07:11<@petern>it's just appropriately placed pixels
07:11<Sacro>fuck me that's beauitful
07:11<Sacro>petern: porn?
07:11<@petern>Sacro, same applies...
07:12<Qball>nice screenshot
07:13<Ammler>maybe she used different new shores grfs and switch them for screens.
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: it's not a shore, it's a house on a foundation
07:14<@petern>it's a 2x2 house
07:15<@petern>incidentally the curve isn't quite right for the 'isometric' view
07:15<@petern>especially the one on the left
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>so... i'm watching Episode II now
07:19<yorick>Yexo, I got a working patch :)
07:26<appe>Eddi|zuHause: i think i have solved the pea problem.
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07:36<Yexo>yorick: nice, can we test it?
07:36<yorick>look at tt-forums :)
07:36<Yexo>ok ;)
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07:40<Yexo>yorick: openttd: /home/thijs/openttd/trunk/src/water_map.h:50: WaterClass GetWaterClass(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_WATER) || IsTileType(t, MP_STATION) || IsTileType(t, MP_INDUSTRY)' failed.
07:41<yorick>when did that happen?
07:41<Yexo>when the river was flooding
07:41<Yexo>I generated a random scenario, placed one source tile, and pressed fast forward
07:43<Yexo>it looks like it happens as soon as the rivers reaches sea
07:44<yorick>meh, it does not happen here
07:45<yorick>yexo, savegame?
07:45<Ammler>yorick: same here
07:46<Ammler>the river reaches the sea, but does still flood
07:49<Ammler>terraforms quite a lot :-)
07:49<yorick>it should only terraform if it gets trapped
07:49<Ammler>yorick: it assert everytime.
07:50<yorick>Ammler, do you have a scenario on which it does?
07:50<Yexo>not everytime here, but often
07:50<Yexo>yorick: I attached a scenario to your thread
07:50<Ammler>I start a scenario and place one piece river on top of a mountain.
07:50<Ammler>then fastforward until it reaches sea, then it will assert.
07:51<Ammler>like if to rivers crash together
07:51<Ammler>yes, I can crash it without sea :-)
07:51<appe>not so good.
07:52<yorick>I was hunting that bug down
07:54<yorick>it fails to reach a coast tile
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07:57<yorick>ammler, how can you crash it without sea?
07:58<Ammler>I guess, it is more something when it gets stocked
08:00<yorick>Yexo's problem occurs when it has a coasttile in sight, but can also flood other tiles
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08:01<Ammler>now it terraformed a whole sea
08:01<Ammler>and flooded it
08:02<yorick>maybe I should remove the coast-magnet
08:03<@Celestar>stupid externals HDDs. Why do they all ship with fat32
08:04<Tefad>Celestar: because fat32 is inefficient for large drives containing small files
08:04<Ammler>Celestar: if you find a better FS for stupid usb HDs, tell me.
08:04<Ammler>(using xfs now)
08:05<@petern>Celestar, because it works on everything
08:05<Ammler>ext3 isn't
08:05<Qball>ext3 always worked for me
08:05<Ammler>which options do you use
08:05<Antdovu>Qball: unexpected end tag
08:05<Qball>for usb disk depends
08:06<Qball>if it is plugged in/out alot I mount it sync and high commit rate
08:06<Qball>if it is always in.. not synced mount and lower commit rate
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08:12<@Celestar>Ammler: xfs (=
08:12<Ammler>hmm, another experiment :P
08:13<DASPRiD>ext3 works
08:13<DASPRiD>welll they usually choose fat32 because it's readable and mostly writable on any system ;)
08:13<Ammler>I guess, it depense a lot of the disk itself,
08:14<Tefad>ntfs is readable and mostely writable on any system.
08:14<Ammler>some "cheap" disk becomes too hot
08:14*Brianetta uses TrueCrypt, often with Ext3 inside
08:14<DASPRiD>Tefad, linux kernels older than a year cant
08:14<Tefad>sure they can
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08:15<Tefad>ntfs-3g works on 2.4 kernels even
08:15<DASPRiD>means special kernel module, no thanks
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08:15<DASPRiD>it should work out-of-the-box
08:15<Tefad>it means using fuse
08:15<Tefad>which is out of the box in many distros
08:15<DASPRiD>fat32 is simply sadly the way to go, plug it into any computer ant it works
08:16<Tefad>if your OS is that dated, why are you trying to use such large drives with it
08:16<Tefad>ntfs is replacing fat32 in that regard thanks to the efforts behind ntfs-3g
08:16<yorick>hm, how do I test for coast tiles with some water on?
08:16<Brianetta>Tefad: Lowest common denominator. FAT works on OS X, Linux, Windows and even Morph OS.
08:16<DASPRiD>Tefad, well uhm, i dont really care about windoze partition types that much
08:17<Brianetta>If you know enough to care, you can put another filesystem on in around three seconds.
08:17<Ammler>you need something which can be almost safely unpluged wihout unmount
08:17<Brianetta>For the average user who wants to cart around their MP3s, photos, Word documents and the odd ISO image FAT is just fine.
08:18<Tefad>perhaps if you're using morphOS you should stick to what works with morphOS..
08:18<Brianetta>You're missing the point. None fo the hard drive manufacturers are forcing you to use FAT.
08:18<Ammler>and ext3 with sync didn't work properly here.
08:18<Brianetta>They're installing it to make it useful to the majority, who don't care what a filesystem is.
08:20<Ammler>those user, who knows what FAT is, can reformat to something better quite fast and easy, indeed.
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08:21<Ammler>will there ever be a "better" FAT?
08:22<Ammler>filesize > 4 GB
08:22<Tefad>most likely not
08:22<Ammler>or was it 2?
08:22<Tefad>it was 2 or 4 depending on the driver.
08:22<Tefad>the filesystem itself supports 4GB
08:22<Ammler>VFAT is 4
08:24<Tefad>microsoft was the main proporter of the FAT system, they shifted efforts into NTFS
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08:25<Tefad>as microsoft filesystems seems to be the standard, it is only logical to look into NTFS as a common one.. unless of course microsoft OS becomes a minority and something replaces it.
08:32<appe>is fat ever usefull?
08:33<@Celestar>appe: yes. floppies.
08:33<@Celestar>that's what it has been made for. that's what it is good for
08:33<appe>oh, ok.
08:34<appe>i know a thing or two about computers, or at least the hardware. but a funny thing about me is that im always very narrowed
08:34<appe>for instance, my server is soon to be six years old, and i still cant say what filesystem it uses.
08:34<appe>and sometimes i have to think twice before i remember what os i use on it. :D
08:34<Antdovu>depending on what the purpose of the server is, that might not even matter
08:35<@Celestar>all my comps run the same OS :)
08:35<appe>well, it weird. i can build a press stacker machine ts900 from scratch (two cubic meters of electronics), but i cant remember where i put my favourite shirt.
08:35<appe>selective memory at its best.
08:36<appe>or for instance, this morning i forgot where i parked my car, but i still remember the lyrics from a song ive only heard two times in the last eight years.
08:37<appe>the human brain is really something.
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08:43<Eddi|zuHause>the difference is that you park your car mostly by reflex, and reflexes are impossible for the brain to remember
08:43<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: many don't drive their car "by reflex"
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>you'd be amazed how large the part of reflexes is when driving
08:44<@Celestar>when I drive, yes (=
08:44<@Celestar>99.x %
08:45<@Celestar>usually I don't even conciously "process" traffic lights
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's the main reason for the "Schrecksekunde", which is the time the brain needs to activate from the reflex/subconcious state
08:45<@Celestar>when you ask me, one second after passing it, whether it was red or green, I normally have no idea
08:46<@Celestar>I remember yellow though
08:46<@Celestar>especially the darker shades of it :P
08:46<appe><@Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: many don't drive their car "by reflex"
08:46<appe>i would rather say the opposite.
08:46<Gekz>you remember it because you consciously speed through it
08:46<@Celestar>Gekz: er .. yes
08:46<appe>it's like holding your balance while using a bike.
08:47<@Celestar>appe: you don't drive with bad drivers often
08:47<appe>wait what. :D
08:47<@Celestar>appe: they use 90% of their processing power to actually operate the car
08:47<@Celestar>it's scary
08:47<appe>i took "bad drivers" in a different perspective.
08:47<Antdovu>it is pretty bad in the UK, most of them drive on the wrong side of the road
08:47<appe>Celestar: i guess that makes the bad driver.
08:48<@Celestar>appe: yes, because they have hardly any resources left to monitor traffic
08:48<Antdovu>and then they get mad when I use the right side
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, teach them! :p
08:49<Gekz>Antdovu: that's pretty arrogant
08:50<Gekz>there is no "wrong" side of the road
08:50<Gekz>there is simply left or right
08:50<Gekz>all because a country drives on the left doesnt make them wrong.
08:50<@Celestar>there is a "wrong" side: Thats the one I'm not on ;)
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>the reflex thing gets kinda annoying when you want to go somewhere you don't normally go, and take all the wrong ways at the crossings
08:50<appe>Eddi|zuHause: for for once, speeding.
08:50<Gekz>it's quite a mindfucking experience to drive on the right for the first time
08:50<Gekz>when youve driven on the left your entire life
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>and 2 seconds after turning, you thing "wait, i wanted to go the other way
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>Gekz: well, the opposite of "right" is "wrong", clearly.
08:52<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: I once remember driving to the airport (60 km from home) and upon arriving on the curbside, I realized that I actually didn't want to go there :P
08:52<@Celestar>I even had passengers with me :P
08:52<Gekz>Celestar: lolwhat
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>ha ha ;)
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08:52<appe>Celestar: o_0
08:53<appe>holy canoli
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>i actually had an accident this way... while on the crossing i switched the directions i wanted to go...
08:53<appe>my new dish washer is way exact
08:53<appe>it made a full program on 60 minutes, on the second!
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>and didn't yield correctly
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09:02<yorick>Ammler, yexo, I fixed it up a bit
09:09<Yexo>yorick: I still got an assert
09:09<Yexo>it happened when one river terraformed another river away
09:10<Yexo>and the rivers often 'close themself in' and never reach sea
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09:16<Eddi|zuHause>my suggestion at that point was to form a lake, and when the lake level rises, you terraform up, until you either hit a chance of becoming a sink, or you find a new exit
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>"sink" begin a chance that the new river tile is not flooding anymore
09:18<appe>time to leave.
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09:48<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14594 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2412]: trains could get their their last visited station reset when still (un)loading causing an invalid state.
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10:08<Antdovu>I disagree
10:14<yorick>stupid thing, don't terraform when you're a downwards slope, thereby flattening yourself and asserting!
10:18<Antdovu>it almost sound like you are developing a new disaster...
10:19<Qball>esp the aseert
10:23<yorick>Antdovu, I think I am...
10:23<yorick>rivers you can divert to flatten som towns or break some railway
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10:30<@Celestar>my RAID array spits out a "WARNING" if you remove a drive, but a "SERIOUS" if you log in via the http interface
10:30<@Rubidium>then you're using a RAID6 array and changing settings of the array is seen as hacking ;)
10:31<@Celestar>your assumption is correct (=
10:31<@Rubidium>or is it a RAID0 array ;)
10:31<@Celestar>this assumption is not correct :P
10:32<@Rubidium>*or* SERIOUS means someone logged in with the right credentials the first time so it's someone that's likely a serious admin
10:32<@Rubidium>whereas multiple failed attempts makes the admin stressed and then it warns
10:33<@Celestar>uh huh :P
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10:34<yorick>*or* it correctly identifies you as a stupid person who should not try to change the settings
10:35*Celestar pokes yorick with a blunt spoon
10:35*yorick gets a trout
10:36*planetmaker hands Celestar Miraculix' special draught.
10:37<@Celestar>my server has 65536 files in the / file system :P
10:38<Qball>Celestar: that is not good
10:38<Qball>I had that in my tmp once, thx to webcvs
10:39<@Celestar>Qball: whole file system, not that one dir
10:39<Qball>I had that in one dir.. made the quiet deadish for most things
10:39<Qball>if it cannot create files in /tmp
10:40<yorick>Ammler, Yexo, asserts have been fixed :)
10:41<Antdovu>yorick: #define NDEBUG
10:42<Antdovu>fixes all asserts
10:42<yorick>not the crashing
10:42<yorick>asserts are the more nice way of crashing
10:43<Antdovu>I know ;)
10:43<@Celestar>an assert is not a crash
10:43<@Celestar>it's a commanded program termination
10:43<Antdovu>depends on the definition of a crash
10:44<@Celestar>a "crash" is usually a SIGSEGV
10:44<@Rubidium>Celestar: using that logic some stack overflows aren't crashes either
10:44<@Celestar>Rubidium: not all (=
10:45<Yexo>yorick: it still asserts
10:45<yorick>how did you manage to assert it this time?
10:46<Yexo>just creating a mountanious, very rough landscape and placing a single river
10:47<yorick>I like my asserts more byte-size
10:48<planetmaker>he, rivers are a bitch :P
10:48*Rubidium wonders when OpenGFX becomes really usable; cause now the old mapgen fails horribly :(
10:48<Qball>sudo find / | wc -l -> 483183
10:49<@petern>anyone would think those sprites are mystical
10:50<@Rubidium>filling them with noise would probably solve the problem
10:52<yorick>omg, my river actually suicided this time
10:52<yorick>it terraformed and killed its source :p
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10:53<yorick>ooh, I asserted it
10:54<yorick>it flowed up the mountain and then asserted
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11:00<Antdovu>remove the anti-gravity ;)
11:01<yorick>seems like the water flow table was not really made for steep slopes
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11:02<yorick>btw, shouldn't the slopes have 1<<0, 1<<1 values instead of hex ones?
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11:17<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14595 /trunk/src/ (41 files in 3 dirs):
11:17<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Add: Estonian currency.
11:17<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Change: Slovenia switched to the Euro in 2007.
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: fix it
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11:21<frosch123>but use the CORNER enum in that case
11:22<yorick>I already fixed my problem :)
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11:53<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14596 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14591): Missing 'return'.
11:53<SpComb>dun dun dun
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12:06<@Celestar>why is my Cordless Logitech Keybaord so crappy compared to the one in my notebook ...
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>all the logitech keyboards i have seen had totally weird key layout
12:07<@Celestar>it's not the layout.
12:07<@Celestar>it feels ... wrong
12:09*Celestar returns to using his notebook
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>when i switch keyboards, i never hit the right keys anyway
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12:12*Belugas has a Logitech at home. Loves it. For more than 2 years now. Maybe it's just the change that makes Celestar feeling like tghat
12:13<@Celestar>Belugas: I've noticed that once you have a Thinkpad, you never want a different keyboard again.
12:13<@Celestar>I'm not the only one with that "problem"
12:13*fjb stays with Cherry G80-3000.
12:14<@Celestar>heh. Jaguar didn't manage to catch Roadrunner
12:15<Antdovu>I know what you are talking about ;)
12:15<@Celestar>good :D
12:15<Antdovu>but openttd still wouldn't run fast enough on either of those
12:15<@Celestar>I don't know what openttd you're talking about :P
12:16<Antdovu>the other one
12:16<Antdovu>but they would probably be quite good as heaters
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12:20<@Celestar>hm Jaguar has 7MW, while Roadrunner has around 2.5 MW
12:20<welshdragon>just a quick query: is there/will there be an xbox 360 port of openttd|?
12:21<@Celestar>if you make one, there will be one (=
12:22<Antdovu>I'd make it
12:22<@Celestar>I just don't think anyone ever tried.
12:22<@Celestar>can imagine it's easier on the PS3
12:22<Antdovu>but I am currently busy porting it to my doorbell
12:23<Antdovu>I already managed to make linux run on it but the average time to boot up is currently 2 days
12:25<Antdovu>someone suggested that I might not need radiation hardened components for it so I'm investigating the claim
12:26<@Celestar>maybe you should have your skull radiaton-hardened? :P
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12:29<Antdovu>I regularly wear my tinfoil hat but thanks for the suggestion
12:29<benjamingoodger>I believe I read an article one about a study that had found that tinfoil hats actually amplify EM radiation
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12:30<@Celestar>"Sir, I believe I know what is causing the neutrino emmissions"
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13:28<planetmaker>Rubidium here?
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13:32<dihedral>hello Wolf01
13:34<Antdovu>I am looking for C8H10N4O2
13:34<Wolf01>looks a kind of sugar
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>looks like an explosive :p
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>sugar doesn't usually contain N
13:35<Wolf01>thank you, I missed the N
13:35<Antdovu>C8H10N4O2 is a bitter white crystalline xanthine that acts as a psychoactive stimulant drug.
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's close enough to an explosive ;)
13:36<SmatZ>I would use some C2H5OH
13:36<planetmaker>easier to get hold of ;)
13:36<@Rubidium>yeah right...
13:36<@Rubidium>C8H10N4O2 is easier to acquire than C2H5OH
13:37<SmatZ>it depends... I don't drink coffee
13:37<planetmaker>ah... :P
13:37<@Rubidium>Caffeine vs Alcohol
13:37<Antdovu>planetmaker: google for the formula :P
13:37<@Belugas>caffeine, thanks
13:37<@Rubidium>the latter has age limits in more countries
13:37<@Rubidium>the former usually doesn't
13:37<@Belugas>but tonight, i would not mind alcohol
13:37<SmatZ>though I dring a lot of tea
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>i have Kaffeine, that's usually enough ;)
13:38<@Belugas>rhu8m, actually
13:38<@Rubidium>ergo the former is easier to acquire than the latter
13:38<planetmaker>yeah... but with caffeine the structure matters. the sum isn't all which is important.
13:38<SmatZ>"Caffeine is also called guaranine when found in guarana, mateine when found in mate, and theine when found in tea; all of these names are synonyms for the same chemical compound." <--- I didn't know that
13:38<planetmaker>yup. I knew tea and coffee.
13:38<@Belugas>and slurp when found in my mug
13:39<@Rubidium>jeez.. some people really didn't pay attention during chemistry
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what these others are supposed to be
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>but i know that theine and caffeine are the same thing
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13:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14597 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-19 18:43:03
13:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 165 fixed, 227 changed by nubllett (156), burgerd (236)
13:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 fixed, 5 changed by Excel20 (7)
13:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: french - 2 fixed by glx (2)
13:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: german - 6 fixed, 2 changed by jonathan159 (2), MaSch (6)
13:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 fixed, 20 changed by oklmernok (21)
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15:27<Fantasya>g' evening
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16:10<Killer11>erm hi
16:12<@Rubidium>that's a strange greeting
16:14<Killer11>I'm strange too so why should I care
16:14<yorick>because we are also strange
16:15<Killer11>then you shouldn't care too
16:15<yorick>yes, but I'm strange, so because of a strange reason, I do
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>better than "YOU ALL SUCK DICK" ;)
16:15<Killer11>BUT U DOOOO
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>ok... -1 points on the in-jokes
16:16<yorick>-1 on the greeting
16:16<Killer11>do we actualy have points here?
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>you don't.
16:16<yorick>unless you're strange in a strange way
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>you owe us points
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't pay, we will sue the guts out of you
16:17<Killer11>i owe you nothing
16:17<Killer11>except oxen
16:17<Killer11>lots of oxen
16:18<yorick>I don't need oxen
16:18<Killer11>you do
16:18<Killer11>everyone does
16:18<yorick>no, I'm strange
16:18<yorick>I don't
16:19<Killer11>i see
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>my plonklist feels strangely empty, if that counts
16:19<yorick>no you don't
16:19<Killer11>you are one of them oxen-haters
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16:20<yorick>no, I like oxen, but I don't actually need them
16:20<@Belugas>would a vegetarian need oxen?
16:20<Killer11>people are starting to flee...
16:20<yorick>no, and vegetarians are also strange
16:20<yorick>so that explains
16:20<@Rubidium>Belugas: yes
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16:20<@Rubidium>just to work the fields
16:21<yorick>they'd use soja-creatures for that
16:22<Killer11>soja-moose is not amused by your mocking of soja
16:22<@Belugas>oh.. killer11... i know that guy. on the forums.
16:22<Killer11>oh dear
16:22<Killer11>I am known
16:23<Killer11>I should be delighted or smth
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16:23<Killer11>i'm currently actively talking to myself in my trainset topic
16:23<Killer11>THE FUN!
16:24<Killer11>atleast people download it
16:24<yorick>do they?
16:24<Killer11>but they don't say a word...
16:25<Killer11>last release got like 19 downloads and no comments
16:25<yorick>maybe you just download it yourself
16:25<@Belugas>maybe it's better this way
16:25<yorick>on your sleep
16:25<@Belugas>maybe you would not like to ear what they have to say
16:25<Killer11>problem is that i would
16:25<Killer11>even if it sucks
16:25<@Belugas>maybe they are afraid to talk to someone who nicknamed self as "killer"
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16:26<Killer11>people who are afraid of nicknames have alot of problems
16:26<Fantasya>killer :D
16:26<Killer11>serious problems
16:26<Fantasya>Im listening now The_killers :D
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16:26<Eddi|zuHause>i know that you french speaking people like to skip 'h's when speaking, but that you don't even write them now is new to me :p
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16:26<@Belugas>meybe they are those kind of people who just download any grf passing by and using them in bundles, not even knowing what is what and which is wich
16:27<Killer11>oh whatever
16:27<Killer11>i'm kinda happy to be the sole person that bothers making eastern block locos
16:27<Killer11>i mean stuff that was used very videly in USSR
16:27<yorick>didn't LA do that too?
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16:28<Killer11>elaborate please
16:28<Killer11>was that set released?
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16:31<Killer11>Mine is out even now
16:31<yorick>does it even exist?
16:31<Killer11>i don't really know
16:32<Killer11>first time i hear that someone else was making an effort
16:32<Killer11>so far my set is one mans job except for some little help on sprites by other people
16:32<Killer11>alot of that stuff i'
16:32<Killer11>ll redraw
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16:33<Killer11>the only graphics of other artists that will stay will be the steamers
16:33<Killer11>as i have no idea how to draw steamers
16:33-!-Guest4098 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:33<Fantasya>cars will replace horses
16:34<Fantasya>this is the big problem :/
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16:36<Eddi|zuHause>Fantasya: welcome to 70 years ago ;)
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16:39<frosch123>poor Killer11, manual industries is already at two comments and 118 downloads :p
16:39<frosch123>did you already created a grfcrawler entry?
16:39<AgentLeMan>good evening :o)
16:43<Fantasya>cars will replace horse :)))))))))))))
16:43<Fantasya>but one problem :DDDD
16:44<AgentLeMan>Fantasya, you are working on the "OpenTTD: Medieval" total conversion? ;o)
16:44<Fantasya>no no. I like maglev 8)
16:45<Killer11>frosch, Yes I do have a grfcrawler entry
16:45<Killer11>problem is most people on tt-forums are geared towards western europe/north america
16:45<Fantasya>my video :DDD
16:45<Killer11>it would be unrealistic for me to get high number of downloads
16:46<Killer11>i checked the CSD set right now
16:46<AgentLeMan>can you give me a direct link, killer?`
16:46<frosch123>[22:47] <Killer11> frosch, Yes I do have a grfcrawler entry <- hehe, since when? (Last edit: 2008.11.19)
16:46<Fantasya>shitty junction in video, but then i was be newbie ;D
16:46<Killer11>and it does have exactly one locomotive that is in my set
16:46<planetmaker>Killer11: most people may come from there. I once saw some images / words of intention on George's website. I'd love to see such set
16:46<Killer11>it's M62
16:47<Killer11>read the info of usage
16:47<Killer11>i am a totaly crude when it comes to coding
16:48<Killer11>i'll prolly need a coder later
16:48<Killer11>as i don't know how to make articulated engines
16:48<Killer11>so i developed my own way
16:48<Killer11>crude but reasonable
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16:49<Killer11>the screenshot on that post is from abit older version
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16:49<Killer11>quite some sprites have been redone
16:49<Killer11>basicly i remade this whole set in like 4 or 5 days
16:50<Killer11>as when i started to recover it it was like totaly broken and unusable
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16:51<Killer11>if anyone wants I could dig up some screenies from older versions of the set
16:51<Nite_Owl>Hello everyone
16:51<AgentLeMan>what did he mean with "manual industries" though?
16:52<AgentLeMan>frosch123> poor Killer11, manual industries is already at two comments and 118 downloads :p
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16:53<AgentLeMan>wow.. trafficlights! :o)))))
16:53<AgentLeMan>good to see the vehicles get some attention too
16:53<AgentLeMan>will we get parachutes for plane-emergencys too? ;o)
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16:56<AgentLeMan>frosch123, hm, that sounds, as if we then wouldnt be just transporters, but more like... suppliers too, like in transport giant?
16:56<planetmaker>frosch123: nice grf :)
16:57<planetmaker>I think it's especially suitable for certain kind of scenarios...
16:57<AgentLeMan>and i guess, it wont work with ECS
16:57<frosch123>hehe, thanks :) Though I don't know why someone can enjoy playing with it, I put it on grfcrawler when the download counter passed 50 :s
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17:04<planetmaker>frosch123: another proof that peoples perception of "fun" may greatly vary - and a big amount of people has more ideas than a few :P
17:05<planetmaker>mind, I added download 119 ;)
17:05<AgentLeMan>planetmaker, thats why a modulesystem would be great, as far as i know, you cant do everything with GRFs?
17:05<@Rubidium>you can't do everything with any module system either...
17:05<planetmaker>hehe. yeah
17:06<AgentLeMan>hm, i thought of something like the mutators in unreal tournament
17:06<@Rubidium>does UT allow you to replace the complete graphics rendering with your own scripted version?
17:06<@Rubidium>no? so why should we do that?
17:07<planetmaker>Rubidium: well... you nearly do ;) It just needs newrails / newroads ;)
17:08<@Rubidium>that only changes the input, not the rendering process itself
17:09<planetmaker>ok :)
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>AgentLeMan: what makes you think loading of grfs is not a module system?
17:09<AgentLeMan>Rubidium : because people can then develop additions without knowing much about the system itself, or wont have to go too deep into the whole development process?
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>there's even a second module system, for the AIs
17:10<frosch123>AgentLeMan: tell that to a newgrf coder, that he does not need to know much about ttd
17:10<planetmaker>AgentLeMan: you think there's anywhere a way to make good additions to anything without knowing the base you work on?
17:11<@Rubidium>yay... more people who talk without knowing what they are actually talking about...
17:11<AgentLeMan>Rubidium : thats called "learning"
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17:12<@Rubidium>making such unfounded statements makes it all the more likely to end up on the ignore lists of the people who can actually help you
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17:14<AgentLeMan>theres no need to be so touchy. i didnt intended to offend anyone, nor make your work sound bad. i dont know, why theres suddenly this rise of tension.
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17:20<@Rubidium>because there's a fairly large number of people telling all kinds of lies and then there are other people who get upset by the lies
17:21<frosch123>maybe we can rename "NewGRF" to "TTDScript" :p
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17:23<AgentLeMan>Rubidium : have you an example?
17:23<frosch123>somehow putting spaces in front of colons reminds me about babyottd
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17:27<@Rubidium>people telling that PBS was in trunk without it being in trunk, people telling that fixing the ship path finder is simple
17:27<@Rubidium>people telling that their patch is desync safe
17:28<AgentLeMan>°grins° youre not possibly referring to uhm... how was it called... plenking?
17:28<@Rubidium>people telling that their patch is savegame safe when they aren't
17:29<@Rubidium>people telling that making everything configurable is easy and makes it more useful for the users
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>people telling that switching to XML makes extensions easier ;)
17:31<AgentLeMan>that is an assumption i cant agree with, Rubidium. i in no way said, it was easy. someone having an idea without knowing, if or how it works, or if the implentation would be easy/hard/possible, still has an idea.
17:32<@Rubidium>did I say you said that?
17:32<AgentLeMan>sorry, it sounded to me like you did. as that was kinda something i did.
17:33<@Rubidium>of all "new" ideas a very small percentage is actually new; the rest is just the so manyth time asking for the same thing
17:33<Killer11> i am out of words
17:34<Killer11>how come your ducktales song reversed soudns liek this
17:34<Killer11>twisted people
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17:35<AgentLeMan>Rubidium: yes, after i again tried out OpenTTD after some pause, i thought about some things with a firend i play often over the net and, as i then later looked at the wiki, i saw, many og those things are already in place or in development.
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18:55<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14598 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Feature: Action0Industries property 24 (industry suuplies default name for nearby station).
18:56<Patrick>wait, don't we have that?
18:56<Patrick>townston mines, townston woods, townston wells
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19:02<AgentLeMan>cool :o) spares us from renaming
19:06<Patrick>but I gues this advances it
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19:29<Eddi|zuHause>Patrick: this makes it customisable by GRF, like "XYZ factory", "XYZ Brewery" etc.
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23:43<AgentLeMan>ah, still connected
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 20 00:00:06 2008