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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-21

---Logopened Fri Nov 21 00:00:09 2008
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02:45<AgentLeMan>@money_fraction :
02:45<AgentLeMan>[22:36] <AgentLeMan> yorick, i think, it has to do with rounding up or down money. after searching for a half hour, im still not sure
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03:07<yorick>what's the difference between SubtractMoneyFromCompanyFract and SubtractMoneyFromCompany?
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05:20<@Celestar>yet another railroad?
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05:25<planetmaker>Celestar: let's see how much the community effort will work: :)
05:30<@Celestar>planetmaker: at the end-of-life of our sun, are there any estimated how much of its H2 will actually have been fused?
05:31<@Celestar>nice planetmaker :D
05:32<DASPRiD>Celestar, why, do you wanna steal h2 from the sun when it dies? :P
05:33<@Celestar>just pondering about 3rd generation stars
05:34<@Celestar>assuming Sun is 2nd generation
05:35<Aali>planetmaker, yorick: i was thinking, maybe we should move the tile-type checks into these new functions aswell, for example, Is*DepotUsageAllowed returns false if the tile isn't a compatible depot
05:40<yorick>we need a channel :/
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05:46<@petern>separate developer channels smack of elitism :p
05:47<yorick>what does SubtractMoneyFromCompanyFract do?
05:48<@petern>also, bah, a 1600x1200 lcd is massively expensive
05:49<@petern>no idea
05:50<yorick>I mean the "Fract" part
05:50<yorick>it seems to be used for running costs
05:52<Aali>it deals with fractions of one monetary unit?
05:52*petern wonders if a viewsonic q241wb is
05:55<@petern>hmm, seems to not exist on their website
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06:00<yorick>hm, should the daily on foreign-tracks cost only be done on running trains?
06:04<@petern>so stopped trains blocking track incur no cost?
06:04<Aali>yorick: does the code we have now even work? :P
06:05<yorick>Aali, yes, started+finished yesterday
06:05<yorick>now working on the fees
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06:05<Aali>and it has no problems? no bugs? no asserts?
06:05<yorick>not yet...
06:06<yorick>but feeder shares won't work
06:06<yorick>and autoclean won't either
06:06<Aali>what happens if someone goes bankrupt?
06:07<yorick>tracks with foreign trains will remain and are taken over by the next owner of the company
06:07<Aali>so, you can have a train standing on tracks that belong to a company thats no longer valid? and this doesn't cause any problems?
06:08<yorick>not really, no
06:08<gynter>rofl 64x64 map ftw
06:08<Aali>just checking
06:08<yorick>but I haven't tested airplanes yet
06:08<yorick>or ships
06:09<yorick>but I guess that shouldn't give any problems, as you can have those shared on normal openttd too
06:09<Aali>its just that you're moving very fast here, i can't keep up :P
06:09<Aali>but please, do continue
06:10<yorick>you haven't even started...
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06:18<Aali>if you're talking about code, why would I, we don't even have a plan
06:18<Aali>I don't believe in writing code without having a plan :P
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06:22<yorick>Aali: don't we?
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06:24<planetmaker>[11:33] <Celestar> planetmaker: at the end-of-life of our sun, are there any estimated how much of its H2 will actually have been fused? <--- 10%
06:25<planetmaker>[11:43] <yorick> we need a channel :/ <-- #openttd.patchers?
06:25<Aali>yorick: yes, but there's also the issue of how to keep these "steps" separate
06:25<yorick>planetmaker: Aali -> #openttd.patchers?
06:26<Aali>since a normal hg repo is probably the best we can do for now, we'll have to come up with something else
06:27<planetmaker>well... meanwhile I think we could use a normal hg repo. It's done for bigger projects anyway
06:28<@Celestar>planetmaker: I see, thanks.
06:29<planetmaker>we'll just have to skip keeping things really seperate. It boils down to a good commit behaviour
06:29<planetmaker>Celestar: np
06:29<@Celestar>planetmaker: some colleague tried to tell me that the sun will fuse each and every single H it contains.
06:29<planetmaker>no way :)
06:30<planetmaker>It will loose much mass after the main sequence by solar winds. Which is basically H
06:30<@Celestar>doesn't it even lose much H now?
06:31<Aali>how about some abstract "levels" that you can specify in the commit message? (such as base, sharing, settings, per-company etc)
06:31<@Celestar>it's about 2 million tons per second, isn't it?
06:31<planetmaker>Aali: that's an idea which I pondered already, too
06:32<Aali>mistakes are bound to happen due to the human factor, but it should atleast help us if we do want to split the patch
06:32<yorick>omg...and then I forgot adding a file to the source.list, which makes ld error
06:33<Brianetta>I'm getting pummelled by neutrinos )-:
06:33<Doorslammer>The DJ?
06:33<Brianetta>The subatomic particle.
06:33<Doorslammer>Carry on
06:34<planetmaker>Celestar: no idea about mass loss due to solar wind
06:34<planetmaker>Aali: I agree.
06:35<@Celestar>planetmaker: wikipedia (?!) says something about 7 billion tons per hour
06:35<planetmaker>well, then :)
06:35<@Celestar>but ok. the mass loss is very very low (about 10e-14 per year)
06:35<planetmaker>not much. and negligible wrt mass loss due to fusion
06:35<Brianetta>50 trillion solar-sourced electron neutrinos per second, per human.
06:35<Aali>anyways, i'm off to upgrade a server in stockholm :P
06:35<Brianetta>They're not particularly massive, though
06:36<@Celestar>Brianetta: not really, no (=
06:36<planetmaker>cu, Aali
06:36<planetmaker>but they have mass :)
06:36<Brianetta>They do.
06:36<Brianetta>This means they don't quite travel at light speed.
06:36<planetmaker>;sr=#4463546 <-- there I put together some numbers some time ago.
06:37<planetmaker>^ @ Celestar
06:37<Brianetta>Those neutrinos are the sort generated when protons turn into neutrons
06:38<@Celestar>planetmaker: nice one
06:38<@Celestar>Brianetta: yeah, but that's beta+ decay which is not particulary important inside the sun
06:38<Brianetta>Not important, but extremely frequent.
06:39<Brianetta>Call it the sun's hobby.
06:39<planetmaker>Celestar: well. Each p+p -> D involves emission of a neutrino
06:39<@Celestar>yeah, but that is NOT beta+ decay (=
06:40<@Celestar>planetmaker: of course it emits a neutrino, other you have trouble with conservation of momentum
06:40<Brianetta>Not to mention electrical charge
06:40<@Celestar>er ..
06:40<@Celestar>a neutrino, as the name implies, has no charge
06:41<planetmaker>:) yup.
06:41<Brianetta>but when one's made, there's generally a change of charge
06:41<@Celestar>otherwise you'll be ionized pretty quickly
06:41<@Celestar>positron (=
06:41<planetmaker>mind the semi colon ;)
06:42<Brianetta>One day we'll discover matter with negative mass. It'll have gravitational attraction to matter like it, but will repel positively massed matter.
06:43<@Celestar>then we have the warp drive \o/
06:43<planetmaker>Brianetta: I have already found it :O
06:43<planetmaker>But I don't trust my measurements ;)
06:43<Brianetta>As long as all you want to do is leave this universe for the one made of negative-mass
06:43<@Celestar>measurements or computations?
06:43<Brianetta>I imagine this hypothetical stuff would emmigrate
06:44<@Celestar>you could contain it
06:44<yorick>how nice...
06:44<Brianetta>You could, but does nature?
06:44<yorick>10,000 shared track fee a-day
06:45<Brianetta>It'd be cool to bolt it onto aircraft
06:45<Brianetta>or suits of armour
06:45<Brianetta>as extra armour
06:45<Brianetta>I suspect that negative-one kilo of mass has interesting inertial properties, too
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>they'll use weapons made out of this then ;)
06:45<Brianetta>like when you push it, it goes with you
06:46<Brianetta>I reckon any naturally occurring negative mass is a long way away, and moving fast.
06:46<@Celestar>one day I'll become rich because I invent a means to kill people who put flash-based popup ads on webpages that conver the actual page
06:46<Brianetta>Celestar: I hate them. You're never sure whether that X in the corner will close the ad or do something awful.
06:47<@Celestar>_IF_ you get such an X
06:47<Brianetta>yeah )-:
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes those flash ads hang before they can display an X
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>or other kind of close button
06:48<yorick>*adblocker* :)
06:48<Brianetta>Is there anything like a right-handed neutrino?
06:49<Qball>Brianetta: I use them to fuel my car
06:49<Brianetta>If we met English-speaking aliens form another universe, could we potentially figure out if they're made of antimatter before shaking hands?
06:49<Qball>Brianetta: you could ask them
06:49<Brianetta>They'd say no
06:50<planetmaker>[12:46] <Celestar> measurements or computations? <-- measurement...
06:50<Brianetta>but we might be antimatter, as far as they're concerned
06:50<Qball>anyway you let the ensign (red shirt) shake hands
06:50<Doorslammer>Can't we talk about something that's a little less...
06:50<Doorslammer>...well, bollocks?
06:50<Brianetta>Qball: Have you any idea how much energy is released from matter/antimatter annihilation?
06:50<Qball>Brianetta: ntohing a good shield (assuming we have them) can't fix
06:50<@Celestar>"he's dead jim"
06:51<Brianetta>You want to make sure you're in a position to observe the light from your ensign's explosion several minutes later.
06:51<planetmaker>[12:53] <Brianetta> but we might be antimatter, as far as they're concerned <-- not really. Because our matter as it surrounds you is defined to be matter (same as in electrical engineering + and -. Only matter of definition)
06:51<Brianetta>planetmaker: Exactly; the aliens might have the other definition
06:51<Brianetta>planetmaker: So, asking them might not work
06:51<planetmaker>sure :)
06:51<Qball>Brianetta: but they speak english
06:51<Qball>year right
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: well, the military rules for a nuclear explosion state that you should stay there and observe
06:52<Brianetta>but asking them if their neutrinos have the same chirality as their whatevers might
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'm certain that'd apply to antimatter explosions also ;)
06:52<planetmaker>Brianetta: there's an asymmetry, the CP asymmetry. It boils down to a break in helicity.
06:52<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: You still want to be a good few light minutes away, with sunglasses
06:52<planetmaker>So you _can_ define matter and antimatter unambigously
06:52<Qball>anyway what is the connection with openttd?
06:52<Brianetta>Qball: Have you ever noticed that your trains explode at the merest touch of another train?
06:53<planetmaker>Antimatter drives, Qball :)
06:53<Qball>planetmaker: I prefer zero point energy
06:53<planetmaker>zero point energy is not usable.
06:53<Qball>yes and the earth is flat
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>Qball: so you want to steal the energy from another universe?
06:53<Qball>Eddi|zuHause: why not
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>what if that other universe wanted to use the energy?
06:54<Brianetta>As long as we also bury our rubbish in that other universe
06:54<planetmaker>philosophical, there cannot be another universe.
06:54<planetmaker>Whatever is accessible is by definition part of the universe :)
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>or if they stealed[?] our engergy?
06:54<planetmaker>stole :)
06:54<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: They can steal from our heatsinks
06:54<Brianetta>which we float int heir space
06:54<yorick>planetmaker, depends on the defenition of universe...
06:55<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause: I thought you would have had English verbs downpat
06:55<Gekz>considering how hard german ones are :P
06:55<Brianetta>yorick: Universe is a tautological word
06:55<planetmaker>yorick: no. Look up the word universe.
06:55<planetmaker>it means "including everything"
06:55<Brianetta>If there are many of them, they are multiverses
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>Gekz: yes, but english verbs are "irregular"
06:55<Brianetta>Hollywood gets universe and multiverse swapped about
06:56<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause: and German ones are not?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>no, german ones are either "strong" or "weak"
06:56<Gekz>weak and strong both have irregulars
06:56<Brianetta>Sein is irregular.
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>with a handful of exceptions
06:56<planetmaker>in nearly any language
06:56<yorick>like esperanto
06:56<Brianetta>There's a finite list of English irregular verbs
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>while english verbs are 80% weak, the 20% of formerly strong verbs turned irregular
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>verbs that are strong in german are often weak in english
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: yes, but it's a handful of pages, not a handful ;)
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06:58<Gekz>the umlaut changes are irregular
06:58<Gekz>and if I didnt suck so badly at german, I'd give you an example
06:58<Brianetta>There's only a couple of hundred
06:59<Brianetta>You can cram them onto a page if you write small
06:59<Gekz>I find french verbs the easiest
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes, Brianetta, it's usually the last page in an english teaching book ;)
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>hey, it's snowing...
06:59<Brianetta>And if you live in America, there are fewer irregular English verbs
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>and i have to leave in 10 minutes...
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>oh joy ;)
07:00<Gekz>Brianetta: lol
07:00<Gekz>Brianetta: is that a good thing?
07:00<Brianetta>Gekz: No joke; that's one of the differences between US English and, er, English English
07:00<Gekz>learnt vs learned?
07:00<Brianetta>and no
07:01<Brianetta>learn is one, yeah
07:01<Brianetta>dreamed vs dreamt
07:01<@Celestar>spent *
07:02<Brianetta>nobody spended money
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>once we had a test in english, and nearly half the class used "gotten", and the next day, the teacher said "i assume you've heard that in some american movie or something, so i'll accept that this time", when we told her, that we actually thought of "forget -> forgotten", she said, if she knew that, she wouldn't have allowed it as correct
07:03<Brianetta>gotten. Yuck. My wife uses that.
07:03<Brianetta>and also "getten"
07:03<Brianetta>which is worse
07:03<Gekz>never heard of it
07:03<Brianetta>You're not from County Durham
07:03<Gekz>I assume this is lovely England?
07:03<Brianetta>I've getten used to her saying it )-:
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't sound that bad to me ;)
07:04<Brianetta>Remember, England is where English was born out of the Saxon, Anglo, Danish, French, Celtic and so forth mish-mash.
07:04<@Celestar>Brianetta: I have heard "spended" ..
07:04<Brianetta>THen there's the native northern languages; Yorkshire and Cumbria had their owb
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>i can't think of a proper german equivalent of "get"
07:05<@Celestar>oh man. I just _accidently_ found out that my train for tomorrow morning is cancelled.
07:06<@Celestar>and those fucktards don't deem it required to inform me.
07:06<Brianetta>Eddi: Bekommen
07:06<Brianetta>or erlangen
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: yes, but it has no resemblance of "get" ;)
07:07<Brianetta>or ankommen
07:07<Brianetta>getkommen (:
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>of course i know the translations
07:07<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: erhalten
07:07<Brianetta>to get
07:07<Brianetta>to acquire or to become
07:07<Brianetta>to get food, to get taller
07:08<planetmaker>May I become a pizza, please ;)
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>i mean there is no language-historical connection that you can draw from "bekommen" to "get"
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>which gets even worse if you consider the english word "become" (nice example for a false friend)
07:08<@Celestar>does any of the Germans have experience with DB's current "emergency timetable" ?
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>i have to go now, bye
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>hope i don't freeze
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's snowing like crazy
07:09<@Celestar>not (yet) here
07:10<planetmaker>it had been snowing here an hour ago... quite heavily
07:10<Brianetta>I was in Berlin last Christmas
07:10<Brianetta>I miss Germany (:
07:10<Brianetta>Why do I miss it?
07:10<Brianetta>Have you ever travelled by bus in the UK?
07:11<@Celestar>I don'T travel by bus.
07:11<@Celestar>it's horrible by design
07:11<Brianetta>Then you can't possible understand. (:
07:11<@Celestar>oh wait. I was going from Vancouver, BC to Seattle, WA once
07:11<Brianetta>It's many small differences like that one
07:11<@Celestar>arguing for 25 minutes with the guy at the border.
07:11<@Celestar>because he didn't like my passpart
07:12<Brianetta>Was he a yank or a canuck?
07:12<@Celestar>because, quote, I have never seen such a passport before, endquote
07:12<@Celestar>Brianetta: an idiot, so why does it matter :P
07:13<Brianetta>Celestar: We must pander to my prejudices
07:13<@Celestar>I honestly can't remember
07:13<@Celestar>perhaps half'n'half :P
07:13<Brianetta>Germany does Christmas better than the UK
07:13<Brianetta>It's quieter, for a start
07:14<@Celestar>yeah that's true
07:14<Brianetta>In the UK it's like Hollywood Christmas
07:14<Brianetta>all shopping
07:14<planetmaker>[13:13] <Brianetta> Have you ever travelled by bus in the UK? <--- an interesting experience ;)
07:14<planetmaker>London - Inverness...
07:14<Brianetta>planetmaker: That would have been a coach
07:14<Brianetta>Coaches are better
07:14<planetmaker>ah, right :P
07:14<Brianetta>They tell you where they are
07:14<Brianetta>Local buses.
07:15<Brianetta>You get on, you tell the driver where you want to go.
07:15<Brianetta>He tells you the price, and sells you a ticket.
07:15<planetmaker>yeah... fogot this small difference... in German language there is no such distinction.
07:15<Brianetta>It doesn't need entwerting.
07:15<Brianetta>You take a seat.
07:15<Brianetta>You then stare out of the window for the entire journey, looking for some sign that you're anywhere near where you think you should be getting off.
07:15<Brianetta>You're asking other passengers.
07:16<Brianetta>The driver's too busy to help you.
07:16<Brianetta>Unless you already know exactly where that bus is going, you have no way of knowing.
07:16<Brianetta>There's no route map, no signage telling you the name of the next stop.
07:17<Brianetta>The bus won't stop anywhere unless you ring the bell.
07:17<Brianetta>The bus won't stop at any stops that aren't "his" even if you ring the bell.
07:17<Brianetta>It's a tortuous experience.
07:18<Doorslammer>And if you are lucky you find one that has an hourly or less service
07:18<Brianetta>In Berlin, I bought the ticket from the machine at the stop. I got on the bus, and waved at the driver. I enwerted the ticket. I waited until the electronic display showed the name of my intended stop, where I got off.
07:18<Brianetta>petern: You have to use the entwerter to entwert your ticket.
07:18<Brianetta>Not sure what the English is.
07:19<Brianetta>Basically, it's not valid for travel without the time that you started the journed stamped on it.
07:19<Brianetta>So effectively, you clock in.
07:19<Brianetta>Tickets are generally valid for an hour or so in one general direction.
07:22<Brianetta>So, in Germany, I didn't need to know:
07:23<Brianetta>1. Where my destination was; only what it was called.
07:23<Brianetta>2. How to speak German.
07:24<Brianetta>Added to this, in Germany I could use my Maestro card in the ticket machine.
07:24<Brianetta>In England, you must have cash, and often you must have the precise amount.
07:25<Brianetta>London's easier, but you still need to know where you're going.
07:26<Brianetta>Also, German food is better.
07:26<Brianetta>The people are friendlier.
07:26<@Celestar>German _beer_ is better (=
07:27<Brianetta>Not a beer drinker
07:27<@Celestar>neither am I
07:27<@Celestar>but the beer in Britain really sucked
07:28<Brianetta>24th December, 2007, I was in a small coffee-and-beer cafe in east Berlin.
07:28<Brianetta>You don't really get them in Britain.
07:28<Brianetta>You can buy bad coffee in a pub, but cafes don't tend to sell alcohol.
07:29<@petern>depends on the beer
07:29<Brianetta>Depends where you get the beer, too
07:29<Brianetta>Some very good beers travel badly
07:29<@petern>i don't drink lager, so...
07:33<@Celestar>Guiness ... yuuuuuck
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07:36<yorick>(Money)build_cost * ((byte)50 / 100) <-- would this get floored to 0?
07:39<planetmaker>[13:21] <Brianetta> petern: You have to use the entwerter to entwert your ticket. <-- it basically means to stamp it, to make it valid
07:40<yorick>it's called "dateless ticket" here
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07:56<@Celestar>why are there so few benchmarks of the new Opterons out :S
07:57<Brianetta>Clue's in the question
07:57<Gekz>Celestar: no-one loves them
07:58<@Celestar>they're pretty decent
07:58<Gekz>future Phenoms will be 6GHz+ aparently
07:58<Gekz>which makes me shit bricks
07:58<@Celestar>Gekz: yes. on LN2 that was
07:59<@Celestar>Gekz: stock clock will be 3.0 GHz in January
07:59<Gekz>stock fail
08:01<@petern>everyone loves intel at the moment
08:02<@Celestar>petern: AMD will be back on track with their 45nm CPUs. Which is good for us customers.
08:02*Brianetta likes Centaur
08:02<@Celestar>DEC or SEC, Brianetta ? :P
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08:03<Brianetta>whichever makes the C7?
08:03<@Celestar>Dual Engine Centaur, Single Engine Centaur ... Upper Stages used on several launchers like the Titan :P
08:03<@Celestar>doesn VIA make the C7?
08:03<Brianetta>As Centaur
08:04<Brianetta>It's a wholly-owned subsidiary
08:05<@petern>hmm, socket g34
08:06<@petern>a lot of pins
08:06<@petern>well, contacts
08:11<@Celestar>O_o Islamists in Somalia are now hunting the pirates
08:13<Jango>feel sorry for the pirates?
08:13<Jango>Celestar, how are you - long time no see
08:13<planetmaker>that's not bad. The reasoning they claim is scary.
08:13<planetmaker>anyway, gotta run for train.
08:14<@Celestar>Jango! how are you?
08:14<@Celestar>Jango: nah, feeling sorry for the marines waiting for work to come :P
08:15<Jango>pretty good - wfh today so all the better
08:15<Jango>what you up to these days?
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08:16<@Celestar>work work work
08:16<@Celestar>but it's going well.
08:16<Jango>keeping the money flowing in
08:16<@Celestar>I'm seeing a light at the end of the tunnel (=
08:16<Jango>different job?
08:17<@Celestar>nah, but PhD thesis is nearing completion.
08:17<Jango>you're obviously still keeping up with development with openttd - i thought real life would have stopped all that
08:17<@Celestar>I've basically covered all I wanted to and can start writing it up.
08:17<Jango>what's the subject?
08:17<Jango>and tell me, has your sister got bored recording music now?
08:18<@Celestar>Jango: computational fluid dynamics. Mixing and combustion processes .. gas turbines and stuff.
08:19<Jango>very specialist
08:19<@Celestar>no she hasn't. She's just transferring to another label and that's a lengthy process ...
08:19-!-Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggstry
08:19<Jango>i'm looking forward to the next CD - we're big fans of her in my house
08:20<Jango>and it's not just cos i "met" you first ;)
08:20<@Celestar>Jango: she's doing a new recording next month
08:20<Jango>do you know what of?
08:21<@Celestar>no, but I might have it somewhere
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08:22<Jango>how's cargodest going?
08:22<@Celestar>Jango: sorry, this schedule of hers is outdated.
08:23<@Celestar>cargodest is going nicely, but a bit on the backburner till mid-december. Working on load-balancing concepts however
08:23<Jango>if you get a new one, let me know :)
08:23<@Celestar>I shall
08:23<Jango>i'm looking forward to trying cargodest - haven't got round to it
08:23<@Celestar>heh .. try it and tell me what you think
08:24<@Celestar>note: "Too many passengers" is not a valid comment :P
08:24<Jango>i like too many <n>
08:24<Jango>that's what makes the game interesting
08:25<@Celestar>I quite agree
08:25<@Celestar>but you can easily get overwhelmed with cargodest
08:25<@Celestar>especially with non-standard houses
08:26<Jango>ah, haven't realy played with newgrf yet
08:27<Jango>i'm just a ordinary player :)
08:27<Jango>except i'm liking the bridges
08:27<Jango>i think you did them?
08:28<@Celestar>what bridges? the flexible ones?
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08:28<@Celestar>well Tron did a huge bunch of the work, I finalized it.
08:28<Jango>ah, so you can't take all the credit!
08:29<Jango>it's good work
08:29<Jango>makes it much easier to keep the traffic moving fast with better acceleration turned on
08:30<Jango>i guess new map array is cancelled now?
08:31<@Celestar>"suspended" :P
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08:34*Celestar sneezes
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08:35<Born_Acorn>Bless thee!
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08:39<Jango>if you walk into a shop in Austria - they say something like "gus got"
08:39<Jango>i presume it means welcome
08:39<Jango>but i have no idea how to spell it :)
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08:42<Brianetta>Grüß Gott
08:42<Brianetta>God's greetings, roughly
08:42<Brianetta>You'll hear it in Bavaria, too
08:43<Jango>my irc isn't unicode - what's the first word? Gruss ?
08:43<Jango>with umlauts and double S
08:44<Jango>i suspected you might hear it in Bavaria - that's why I asked while Celestar was around..
08:44<Jango>but help comes from unexpected sources
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08:54<@Celestar>it is common in southern Germany
08:54<@Celestar>not only bavaria
08:55<Sacro>Jango: from the topic "UTF-8 please"
08:58<Jango>Sacro, i don't believe I personally sacrileged the rules
08:58<Jango>right, off to the registry office :o
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09:06<Sacro>Celestar: you a forum mod?
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09:25*Fantasya np: Guru Josh Project - Infinity [03:11m/213kbps/44kHz]
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09:34<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause: I should appoint you as my forward meterological observer, it's snowing here just now :p
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09:40<@Celestar>no snow here
09:41<@Celestar>EDDM 211420Z 29019G31KT 8000 -SHRA SCT005 BKN010 03/01 Q0997 RERA NOSIG
09:41<@Celestar>no snow for the next 6 hours apparently
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09:41<Sacro>light showers
09:41<@Celestar>and up to 60km/h window
09:41<@Celestar>yes Sacro
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09:41<Sacro>cold D:
09:42<@Celestar>WSSS 211430Z 01003KT 320V050 9999 FEW016 SCT070 28/26 Q1010 NOSIG
09:42<@Celestar>better? :P
09:43*Sacro looks up EGNJ
09:43<Sacro>EGNJ 211420Z 32012KT 9999 SCT021 06/00 Q1013
09:44<Sacro>RERA NOSIG?
09:44<FauxFaux>Is this some kind of crazy NMEA for weather? :p
09:44<@Celestar>RERA == recent rain (i.e. runway may be wet)
09:44<Sacro>"If you mean Homer, he is a fictional main character in the animated tv series The Simpsons"
09:44<@Celestar>NOSIG == no significant change
09:45<Sacro>that's not who homer was *facepalm*
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09:57<@Celestar>hm ..
09:57-!-Mortal [] has joined #openttd
09:57<@Celestar>I wonder whether these is a tool to monitor file system usage in linux
09:57<@petern>at what level?
09:57<@Celestar>at file system level
09:58*Jango is glad that we're not still all using windows
09:59<@Celestar>er ..
09:59<@Celestar>like what? Vista?
09:59<FauxFaux>lsof / strace?
10:00<@Celestar>I don't want to know what file are open,I wonder what _file_system_ the majority of my I/O goes to
10:02<FauxFaux>Oh dear.
10:03<@Celestar>which is difficult when running evms
10:08<@Celestar>evms is a mistake
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10:09<@petern>"monitor file system usage" was pretty vague
10:09<@Celestar>petern: yeah.
10:10<@Celestar>petern: I wish to monitor how much I/O happens on each of my file systems.
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10:18<@Celestar>that all seems per block-device
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10:25<fjb>gstat -f ufs
10:25<fjb>dT: 1.001s w: 1.000s filter: ufs
10:25<fjb> L(q) ops/s r/s kBps ms/r w/s kBps ms/w %busy Name
10:25<fjb> 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0.0 0.0| ufs/SP2004Cs2root
10:25<fjb> 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0.0 0.0| ufs/SP2004Cs2usr
10:25<fjb> 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0.0 0.0| ufs/SP2004Cs2loca
10:25<fjb> 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0.0 0.0| ufs/SP2004Cs2var
10:25<fjb> 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0.0 0.0| ufs/SP2004Cs2var2
10:26<fjb>Ok, not much io here now.
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10:40<@Celestar>-f is not a valid option here :o
10:46<@Celestar>I gotta head out
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11:28<yorick>why is CompaniesMonthlyLoop in economy.cpp?
11:35<gynter>whats the point of buying shares ?
11:35<gynter>of company
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>selling them later for more money than you invested
11:36<gynter>ah k
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>but the system is not really balanced
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure there should even be a shares system
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12:14<Antdovu>guten tag
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12:28<Brianetta>How do you choose your external MIDI device with openttd?
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>extmidi=... in openttd.cfg?
12:29<+glx>that's the player
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>and the player can't get arguments?
12:29<+glx>it can IIRC
12:29<Brianetta>so you need a program, not a midi device?
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12:34<Sacro>i think i got it working with my audigy once
12:34<Sacro>using soundfonts
12:34<Brianetta>Sacro: I have a Roland piano wired into my PC.
12:34<Brianetta>I don't need soft-anything.
12:34<Sacro>Brianetta: epic :D
12:35<Sacro>sigh, wikimedia needs to sue 118118
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12:43<Sacro>"the Belugas calf is born head or tail first"
12:43<Sacro>so you mean never sideways?
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12:55<@Celestar>I'm off
12:56<@Celestar>have a nice weekend all
12:56<Sacro>night Celestar
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13:16<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14601 /trunk/src/ (order_base.h order_cmd.cpp): -Fix: the nearest depot and stop in depot orders didn't work together (the vehicle didn't stop).
13:17<Wolf01>so it was a bug, and not my fault :D
13:18<Antdovu>another newgrf preset problem: you can't select (and therefore modify/delete) an empty preset
13:19<Antdovu>this is what happens when everyone makes their own linked list :P
13:20<@Rubidium>Wolf01: well, it is your fault that you didn't tell us earlier...
13:20<Wolf01>I'm just back from work
13:20<@Rubidium>so... the thing has been there for a while
13:20<@Belugas>most of the times, a beluga's calf is born tail first, like almost all the sea mammals
13:21<@Belugas>but as humans, there may be exceptions
13:22<@Rubidium>Antdovu: then what should we've used when we had written those NewGRF lists?
13:23<Antdovu>something that can represent both the non-existence of a list and an empty list?
13:23<DaleStan>I tend to prefer containers from the STL.
13:24<Antdovu>that's what I would suggest as well
13:24<DaleStan>(But I haven't looked at the code to see what actually was used.)
13:24<@Rubidium>please tell me how you would use STL in C ;)
13:24<Antdovu>it is c++ :P
13:24<DaleStan>Isn't it all compiled with g++ now?
13:25<@Rubidium>Antdovu: now it is, but... I was talking about the time we written those NewGRF lists
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13:25<@Rubidium>okay, if you do it now STL might be wise, but back in "those" days there wasn't a piece of C++ in OpenTTD
13:25<Antdovu>well, the preset feature wasn't there in 0.6.x
13:26<@Rubidium>but the newgrf lists are
13:26<@Rubidium>and it "just" allows you to have more of those lists
13:26<@Rubidium>on the other hand... an empty list with the current implementation is just NULL
13:27<@Rubidium>but maybe petern thought that empty presets are kinda pointless
13:27<Antdovu>anyway, wouldn't it generally be a good idea to use STL in non performance-critical parts of the code where it makes sense to use it?
13:28<@Rubidium>it would, but... changing codes makes bugs and most of the "custom" stuff works perfectly well
13:29*Belugas loves the TList class of Delphi
13:29<@Belugas>such a powerfull tool...
13:29<frosch123>is that ironic?
13:30<@Rubidium>frosch123: no, it's only funny when you know some history ;)
13:30<@Rubidium>Belugas: #define TList std::list? ;)
13:30<frosch123>oh, ok :)
13:31<frosch123>"#define TList std::vector<void *>" would be more appropiate :)
13:31<@Belugas>no, frosch123, not ironic at all
13:31<@Belugas>i love it, really...
13:32<@Belugas>although, i have to admit, the TStringList is far more used in my code
13:32<@Belugas>I use the TObject poingter to all kind of funny stuff
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13:37<@Belugas>i have this stringlist structure, where each string has a corresponding tstringlist object, which itself contains, on each string added, an object giving some data processing for a big xml-gift-card processor system
13:37<@Belugas>last time i counted, there were 93 different different object classes been used in this process
13:37<@Belugas>lovely to debug ;)
13:38<@Rubidium>only 93? :)
13:39<@petern>i did actually considering switching from a linked list
13:39<@petern>but so much code would need to change
13:39*petern considers the benefits of a bottle of red
13:40<Antdovu>my huge patch for the old .ini bug:
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13:41<@Belugas>linked lists are nice indeed, but the handling of the items are giving you a big overhead
13:41<@Belugas>i thnk
13:41<@Belugas>note that you can build trees, which obviously is a bit silly to do with stringlists...
13:42<@Belugas>Rubidium, yes 93. biggest hierarchy i had to build as of yet
13:42<frosch123>[19:39] <Belugas> i have this stringlist structure, where each string has a corresponding tstringlist object, [...] <- that is already a tree :)
13:43<@Rubidium>Belugas: OpenTTD has "only" 161 classes (and that is without structs that could be seen as classes)
13:44<@Belugas>frosch123, that wold be a very unbalanced tree ;)
13:45<@Belugas>Rubidium, i am talking about an hierarchy that is used for a single payment processing feature. Not a general system, if you see what i mean
13:45<frosch123>Belugas: well, maybe I understood you wrongly. I thought you had a StringList a where a.object[..] points to a StringList class
13:45<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14602 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-21 18:45:14
13:45<CIA-5>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 2 fixed by Ar4i (2)
13:45<CIA-5>OpenTTD: catalan - 2 fixed by arnaullv (2)
13:45<CIA-5>OpenTTD: czech - 2 fixed by Hadez (2)
13:45<CIA-5>OpenTTD: finnish - 90 fixed by UltimateSephiroth (90)
13:45<CIA-5>OpenTTD: hungarian - 6 fixed, 42 changed by oklmernok (48)
13:46<@Belugas>indeed, frosch123
13:46<@Belugas>that's the pattern
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13:55<Fantasya>Snow in Lithuania!!!
13:55<Antdovu>no snow in Scotland :)
13:55<frosch123>be careful with the S word when B is around :)
13:55<Sacro>there's nerrr snerrr on freeeeeerrm reeeeeerd
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>certainly Bjarni is not around ;)=
14:00<Fantasya>snow are good all the ways
14:00<Fantasya>yap ;)
14:01<Fantasya>Christmas coming :))))))))
14:02*Antdovu hates xmas
14:02<Fantasya>you dont believe in santa claus?
14:02<Fantasya>you believe in chuck norris?
14:02<Antdovu>who came up with the idea that xmas stuff should be everywhere in the middle of November??
14:03<yorick>CHUCK NORRIS
14:03<frosch123>Antdovu: that's due to the fact that St Nicholas is far more important
14:04<Antdovu>I like the kind of people who set up their Halloween stuff just before Christmas :P
14:04<fjb>Middle of november? We had it in october.
14:05<Fantasya>we have it after hallowed stuff liquidation
14:05<frosch123>fjb: I am quite sure I bought my first "lebkuchen" this year on 1st september
14:06<Fantasya>what is lebkuchen?
14:07<frosch123>I guess some kind of gingerbread
14:07<frosch123>but "lebkuchen" also seams to be a valid english word
14:08<Antdovu>Fantasya: there is this awesome new website:
14:08<Fantasya>mine dictionary says: word not found :)))
14:08<Fantasya>yea I know this site :)
14:09<Fantasya>why IRC nothing do when I click on link?
14:09<yorick>I bought my first pepernoten this year on 15th november :)
14:10<Fantasya>santa claus, ded maroz HAHAHAA :D
14:11<Antdovu>I have used google 809 times this month :\
14:11<yorick>santa claus :D
14:12<Fantasya>too little
14:12<yorick>americans stole our tradition :/
14:12<Fantasya>yorick, you dont believe that santa claus exist? :^)
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: they even mixed it up :)
14:12<yorick>I believe in sinterklaas :)
14:12<Fantasya>then I believe in Kaledu senelis
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>Saint Nikolaus was an actual person (in the 4th century or something)
14:13<frosch123>"Unlike Santa Claus, he walks with a long magical staff, does not say "Ho, ho, ho," and drives no reindeer but a troika." <- I love wikipedia :p
14:13<Fantasya>first guy was "Ded Maroz" in russia
14:13<Fantasya>troika :DD lol :D
14:14<Antdovu>Ug was first
14:14<yorick>Eddi, bishop of Myra :)
14:14<Antdovu>Ug maced people he didn't like around xmas time
14:15<Antdovu>[may contain original research]
14:16<yorick>but our sinterklaas does not have a sledge
14:16<Fantasya>anyone knows how enthuse idiot?
14:17<frosch123>yorick: let me guess, he drives a coca-cola truck?
14:17<yorick>no, just a horse :p
14:18<Antdovu>Fantasya: give him a cookie
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, the real reason for creating a fictuous person instead of sticking with Nikolaus was that the protestants were against worshiping supposedly "holy" people
14:20<Fantasya>Antdovu: send on email?
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14:22<@Belugas>people celebrating snow... this channel is discusting :S
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>who celebrated snow? :p
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14:28<Fantasya>I like snow, I like santa claus, I like this day, I like another day, I like xmas, I like everything
14:28<Fantasya>except half things of these
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood this "xmas" thing...
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>but i think i say that every year ;)
14:29<yorick>it's american
14:29<yorick>their substitute for nikolaus...
14:30<Sacro>disregard tyat
14:30<Sacro>I sucks cocks
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>unknown identifier
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>semantics error
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14:35<Fantasya>woops. anaware clicked on power button ;D
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14:49<@Belugas>i hate snow. it's cold, it's slippery, it's heavy, it's everywhere, it's not usefull, it always comes down in huge masses that "I" have to remove...
14:49<@Belugas>and it stays for a too long time
14:50<frosch123>Belugas: how many shovels do you have in stock for this year?
14:50<Prof_Frink>Belugas: Send some over here would ya?
14:51<@Belugas>frosch123 : 3 actually... plus, i signed that contract with a company that will come up and remove it for us, with that big blowing machine
14:51<@Belugas>Prof_Frink, if i could, i wold :)
14:52<frosch123>hehe, such companies are no fun. some days they have nothing to do, other days they have to be everywhere...
14:53<@Belugas>yup :)
14:53<@Belugas>i don't mind paying them, if it lift the fucking boring job of shoveling off my back and shoulders ;)
14:54<@Belugas>i have other more fun ways of doing exercices...
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>bah... my LMB is giving up... it's so damn annoying
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16:11<Ammler>is it possible? Does now openttd also delete entries in the cfg?
16:11<Ammler>like player_name
16:11<yorick>I guess so
16:12<yorick>any gui-expert here willing to make a gui for IS?
16:12<yorick>I'm not good with guis
16:13<@Rubidium>not that I'm aware of, unless it's in patches, yapf or gameopt
16:14<Ammler>hmm, maybe someone of our admins, thought, it is useless now. ;-)
16:15<@Belugas>admins? useless? indeed
16:15<yorick>who's going to kick the bad players if there are no admins?
16:17<fjb>The bad players.
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16:24<Ammler>Belugas: :P
16:25<Ammler>was there a save bump recently
16:25<+glx>2 or 3 revs ago
16:25<frosch123>the one with industry property 24
16:31<yorick>new IS is already 70kb :o
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16:46<Eddi|zuHause>patches like that tend to get big very fast ;)
16:51<@Belugas>industry prop 24 ? mmh... i kinda remember seeing 2 persons working on it
16:51<@Belugas>Rubidium and yexo
16:51<frosch123>Belugas: it was committed yesterday :)
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17:17<@Belugas>ho ... it was.. indeed ... sorry, my memory is a bit saturated lately :S
17:17<@Belugas>and congrats!!!
17:18*Belugas i gone
17:19<@Belugas>ciao bellas
17:19*frosch123 too
17:19<frosch123>night Belugas
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17:21<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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17:27<vpol>hi all.
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause>night wolf.
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18:52<appe>zup dudes
18:53<appe>when i do single player, i can speed up the game
18:53<appe>can i alter this speed?
18:53<appe>i wish time to go ever faster.
18:53<@Rubidium>buy a quicker computer
18:54<@Rubidium>cause it's running as fast as it can go
18:54<mortal>appe, I've experienced that minimizing/hiding/making the game not draw makes a month last 14 seconds
18:54<@Rubidium>you can also disable animation
18:54<mortal>the less the game has to render, the quicker time passes
18:54<appe>oh, ok
18:54<mortal>I held tab and minimized and watched my autosave folder write a savegame every 14 seconds...
18:54<appe>i had no idea it was "cpu dependable"
18:54<mortal>(your mileage may vary)
18:55<appe>holy cow, it worked
18:55<mortal>appe, it's proportional to your cpu power
18:55<appe>im trying out some intercontinental trains
18:55<appe>and it sucks to wait for them. :>
18:55<appe>just to see if it works or not
18:55<appe>and it did
18:55<appe>im up in eight million a train and year
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>your cross-map-trains actually arrive every year?
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18:58<Eddi|zuHause>the last time i tried such a train, it took 4 years for a round trip
18:59<appe>i estimate it to use over a hundred stations.
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>although, the line was pretty congested, so the train couldn't fully make use of its speed
19:00<appe>though, this map is "fixed"
19:00<appe>the city's a bit ..huge.
19:00<appe>4-6000 on every station
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19:06<benjamingoodger>good evening, gentlemen
19:08<Antdovu>all your base are belong to us
19:09<benjamingoodger>although I didn't intend to emulate a tired old cliché, I recognise the possibility that I act too much like an evil genius
19:09<Antdovu>you set yourself up for it :P
19:10-!-Vikthor [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:10<benjamingoodger>I do have a tendency to go "excellent!" while steepling my fingers and leaning back in a high-backed chair, I will admit
19:11<benjamingoodger>though I retain a full head of dark brown hair. possibly I will shave much of it off and dye it grey for a fancy-dress party.
19:14*benjamingoodger increments his conversation-killing combo score
19:16<Antdovu>you are the only person in this room
19:16-!-dvo [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:16<Antdovu>everyone else is a bot
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19:18<benjamingoodger>oh well
19:18<benjamingoodger>this does at least confirm my theory that everyone else exists merely to worsen my paranoia
19:19<Antdovu>that is 100% correct
19:19<Antdovu>but keep in mind that you are actually making everyone up
19:19<Antdovu>you can get rid of them by forgetting about them
19:19<benjamingoodger>you're doing it now!
19:19<benjamingoodger>however, you'd be paranoid too, if everyone were conspiring against you
19:20<Antdovu>I can confirm that I am actually planning to kill you in your sleep
19:20<Antdovu>you will not remember it when you wake up
19:20<benjamingoodger>you'll have to get over my tin-foil electric fence, though
19:21<Antdovu>but you will be terrified of carrots for a weird reason
19:21<benjamingoodger>how will I be terrified of carrots when I'm dead?
19:21<benjamingoodger>how, indeed, will I wake up after being killed?
19:22<Antdovu>there are more than one way to parse what I say ;)
19:22<Antdovu>that is done on purpose to make you as confused as possible
19:24<Eddi|zuHause># bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes
19:24<benjamingoodger>...antdovu isn't a bunny
19:24<Eddi|zuHause># they got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses
19:24<Eddi|zuHause># and what's with all the carrots
19:24<Eddi|zuHause># what do they need such good eye sight for anyway
19:25<Eddi|zuHause># bunnies, bunnies, it must be BUNNIES
19:25<Antdovu>actually, I am:
19:25<Eddi|zuHause># ... or maybe midgets
19:25*benjamingoodger chucks his newly-developed caesium bomb at Eddi|zuHause and flees
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19:27<benjamingoodger>oh, thank goodness. being covered in boiling caesium hydroxide seems to have made him be quiet ¬.¬
19:27<Antdovu>it would be awesome to meet a bunny like me at night on a dark alley
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'm actually just quietly pondering new ways of justifying your paranoia
19:28<benjamingoodger>actually, I said worsen, not justify
19:28<benjamingoodger>those are opposite and mutually exclusive
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i'd say those are orthogonal
19:29<benjamingoodger>you'd say a lot of things, I'm sure
19:30<Antdovu>yes, I would
19:31<benjamingoodger>...not you ¬.¬
19:31<benjamingoodger>so, which is better?
19:31<benjamingoodger>germany, sweden, or norway?
19:31<Antdovu>your schizophrenia is getting worse
19:32<benjamingoodger>why do you say that?
19:32<Antdovu>you are further splitting your personalities
19:32*Antdovu is Eddi|zuHause
19:32-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
19:32<Antdovu>see? ;)
19:33-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, i don't see
19:33<benjamingoodger>actually, schizophrenia is a type of psychosis rather than multiple personalities
19:33<Antdovu>benjamingoodger: I am your sane self
19:33<benjamingoodger>you're thinking of Multiple Personality Disorder
19:34<Antdovu>you have both
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>actually, it's written with tz
19:34<appe>i love trains
19:34<appe>at the same time i hate'm.
19:35<benjamingoodger>that's perfectly normal
19:35*fjb prefers to love girls.
19:35<Antdovu>and that is your openttd crazed self...
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19:37<benjamingoodger>so, antdovu is Eddi|zuHause, and also, antdovu is me, and I'm appe
19:37<Antdovu>that is correct
19:37<benjamingoodger>so who is fjb?
19:37<Antdovu>a bee
19:37*fjb is fjb.
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>a giant bee?
19:38<Antdovu>a tiny bee
19:38<benjamingoodger>a tiny bee that still manages to press a keyboard?
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>right... another -1 on the in-jokes...
19:38<Antdovu>but as you see he can't talk
19:38<Antdovu>he can only do
19:39<benjamingoodger>some brief calculations reveal that he would have to be travelling very nearly at lightspeed before gaining enough mass to impact upon a keyboard
19:39<Antdovu>he has quite a few higgs bosons
19:40<benjamingoodger>that particle isn't yet known to exist, you know
19:40<benjamingoodger>how can you possibly tell how many he has?
19:40<Antdovu>remember: I am your sane self
19:40<benjamingoodger>and no matter how many he has, he still has only 0.98 grams of mass
19:40<Antdovu>you are the leading one
19:40<Antdovu>but still insane
19:41<benjamingoodger>or rather, 0.098 grams, pm 0.02g
19:44<Antdovu>some of your rational personalities have left
19:44<Antdovu>only the imaginary ones are left
19:44<benjamingoodger>benjamingoodger.convokillcombo = benjamingoodger.convokillcombo + 1
19:44<Antdovu>and a few irrational multiples of pi
19:45-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
19:46<benjamingoodger>hurrah for pi
19:47<Antdovu>fresh apple pi ftw!
19:47<benjamingoodger>mince pis are nicer
19:48<benjamingoodger>unless it's mcdonalds apple pi, which is not pi at all, but a weird phi-like number
19:48<benjamingoodger>and not nearly irrational
19:48<benjamingoodger>but still nice
19:49<Antdovu>obviously, nobody should eat mcdonals pi
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>apple is bad anyway
19:49<appe>mcdonald pi.
19:50<appe>fourteen seconds is almost six months for me
19:50<appe>when minimized
19:51<Antdovu>a bit out of the line, isn't it? :P
19:55<benjamingoodger>yes, that was a bit of a non sequitor
19:59<benjamingoodger>"the nineties are not important!"
20:02<Antdovu>you and your personalities were all misunderstood
20:02-!-Antdovu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:05<benjamingoodger>"there is no such thing as alternative medicine---if something works in trials, it ceases to be 'alternative'. therefore, all 'alternative' medicine is actually stuff that doesn't actually work"
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>that video of Antdovu's was not funny...
20:08<benjamingoodger>subjectivity warning
20:08<benjamingoodger>it was funnier than yours
20:08-!-Bergee [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:08<benjamingoodger>subjectivity warning concludes
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>your subjectivity is too subjective for me
20:09<Patrick>what about things for which hunches exist, and which trials will eventually deem useful
20:09<Patrick>but which currently is not rigorously proven to work
20:09<benjamingoodger>well, then
20:09<benjamingoodger>if it's not proven to work, then it's rubbish
20:09<Patrick>they're inseperable from the bullshit because there's no rigorous evidence
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>witch trials you deem useful?
20:10<Patrick>but if a trial has never been done, there's some scale of judgement used to assign trials to possible leads
20:10<Patrick>some alternative medicine is clearly BS and some is promoted to mainstream through careful study.
20:10<benjamingoodger>well, if it is proven to work, then, yes, it becomes ordinary medicine
20:10-!-Bergee [] has joined #openttd
20:10<Patrick>the distinction between the two is where the money is
20:11<Patrick>that is, that's bollocks, and that has a good chance of being real
20:11<benjamingoodger>well, the former is, and the latter is new and/or unproven
20:12<appe>how do i drag signals so it only gets one-wayed?
20:12<benjamingoodger>appe: place a single signal, set it to one-way, then start your drag on that signal
20:12<appe>thank you.
20:12<Patrick>benjamingoodger: I would argue that there are items of alternative medicine that may eventually make the transition
20:13<benjamingoodger>the trouble is, nearly all natural cures were tested extensively decades ago
20:13<benjamingoodger>the ones that worked were refined and made into overpriced pills with funny names
20:14<benjamingoodger>the remainder are diluted into impossible dilutions and labelled "alternative medicine" to avoid regulation
20:14<Patrick>new leads come from obscure place
20:14<Patrick>like the organochlorine from tree frogs
20:14<benjamingoodger>well, yes, but that's hardly alternative
20:14<Patrick>trivial molecule, unknown mode of action in painkilling
20:14<benjamingoodger>it's just unstudied
20:14<Patrick>I see where you're coming from
20:15<benjamingoodger>stuff doesn't become alternative, until it has been rejected by proper medicine (because, in the absence of mistrial, it's useless)
20:15<Patrick>anything the alternative community gets thier hands on is either a castoff from the drug industry or just total bollocks like, well, total bollocks
20:15<benjamingoodger>except chiropractic. :P
20:15<benjamingoodger>well, to a large extent
20:16<benjamingoodger>for instance, my back used to hurt, and be curved to a ludicrous degree, thus impeding my breathing to a noticeable degree
20:16<benjamingoodger>now that it has been straightened, it no longer hurts
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>except it's spelled absolutement
20:17<benjamingoodger>quiet, you
20:17<Patrick>hmm, back problems
20:17<benjamingoodger>therefore, it was a succes
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>just all the "t"s and "e"s are silent in french :p
20:17<Patrick>there are many reasons why it could have reduced your apparent pain
20:17<benjamingoodger>I've never knowingly seen a french person spell it, is all
20:17<Patrick>only one of which is "it fixed the problem as you describe, in the way you describe"
20:18<Patrick>actually, I've just realised I'm a huge fucking hypocrite
20:18<Patrick>because I take 10 grams of vitamin C a day
20:18<Patrick>irregardless of how healthy I feel
20:18<benjamingoodger>that's not alternative medicine
20:18<benjamingoodger>that's vitamin C megadosing
20:18<Patrick>the cards are still up in the air about it
20:18<Patrick>it's a matter of opinion for doctors, therefore it's not mainstream
20:18<Patrick>and it's not an official treatment for many things it should be
20:19<benjamingoodger>well, no
20:19<benjamingoodger>but humans in general are horrifyingly malnourished as far as vitamin c is concerned...
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>taking vitamins by pills is (imho) a bad idea
20:19<benjamingoodger>I might consider 10g a bit excessive, but we definitely need much, much more in our diet
20:19<Patrick>the evidence to suggest we need a lot more than the RDA is compelling
20:19<benjamingoodger>yes, Eddi|zuHause raises a good point, pills < fruit
20:20<Patrick>given that every mammal has roughly the same body-mass-to-internally-generated-vitamin-C ratio
20:20<Patrick>which would calculate for a human to be about 5-10 grams a day
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>you should instead change your eating habits to things that contain these vitamins naturally
20:20<Patrick>you'd have to eat nothing but peppers and rose hips
20:20<benjamingoodger>I'd find it extremely difficult to eat 10g of vitamin c daily.
20:20<Patrick>which is what was theorised to happen to our ancestors :)
20:21<Patrick>like, actually just 5kg of bell peppers a day or something
20:21<Patrick>anyway, I drink it in solution in water
20:21<benjamingoodger>however, since it's virtually impossible to overdose on the stuff, I say cram the pills down your throat until you choke on them
20:21<Patrick>GI absorption is the same mechanism as dietary
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20:21<Eddi|zuHause>humanity has survived 10 thousand years without that kind of vitamin C overdose
20:22<Patrick>why do you think guinea pig is a synonym for medicinal experimental subject
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>"barely" is perfectly fine in most natural environments
20:22<benjamingoodger>regrettably, the modern diet of the average human is shockingly dissimilar to that of 8,000 BC homosapiens
20:22<Patrick>they suffer from many of the same medical conditions we do that no other animals seem to, bare a few isolated examples
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>nature does not do anything more than is absolutelly necessary
20:22<Patrick>guess what, guineas can't synthesise vitamin C in vivo either
20:22<benjamingoodger>for instance, we eat carbohydrates
20:23<benjamingoodger>which are known to be really, really, _really_ unhealthy
20:23<Patrick>like, it was an evolutionary advantage to lose the enzyme functionality, when we were getting it in our diet
20:23<Patrick>saving energy -> more likely to reproduce
20:24<benjamingoodger>however, we are no longer based entirely in the forests of east africa, and therefore now somewhat less likely to be stuffing our faces with fruits all day
20:24<Patrick>the body made do with other oxidants
20:24<benjamingoodger>eh, antioxidants
20:24<Patrick>it's not possible to mutate an enzyme back into action
20:24<Patrick>so we limped along
20:24<benjamingoodger>starting around 900 AD, we've managed to completely revamp our diets
20:25<Patrick>also, human evolution's stopped in the last 10,000 years or so
20:25<benjamingoodger>meat and vegetables are out, artificially bred starches and the milk of a distantly related mammal are in
20:25<Patrick>I just had a cheese sandwich
20:25-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:25<Patrick>what about potatoes?
20:26<Patrick>I read about a diet once
20:26<Patrick>the paleolithic diet
20:26<Patrick>you're only allowed stuff that people can eat raw
20:26<benjamingoodger>the modern potato is rather bigger than its forebear
20:26<Patrick>no corn, no potatoes
20:26<Patrick>you can of course cook what's allowed, but no starches :)
20:26<Patrick>argh sleep
20:26<benjamingoodger>well, starch is of course a human invention
20:26<benjamingoodger>and, like most of our inventions, bad for us
20:27<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: you still here? :D
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>no... i _was_ falling asleep...
20:27<benjamingoodger>ah, sorry
20:37<benjamingoodger>some of these questions scare me
20:37<benjamingoodger>the idea that any US citizen could get them wrong...
20:39<benjamingoodger>I got 73%
20:39<benjamingoodger>I am English
20:40<benjamingoodger>slashdot tells me that the US's elected officials scored 44%
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>i am guessing half the time
20:42<benjamingoodger>some of them are sickeningly obvious
20:43<benjamingoodger>"name two of the US's enemies during WW2"
20:43<Sacro>"B. advocated black separatism"
20:43*Sacro clicks
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>for example, i have no idea how the first few amendments are ordered
20:44<benjamingoodger>you would have to be _appallingly_ stupid not to know the answer to the above question
20:44<Sacro>benjamingoodger: aren't two of those correct?
20:44<Sacro>"China and Russia"?
20:44<benjamingoodger>no, no, certainly not
20:45<Sacro>russia was at first
20:45<Sacro>until germany turned on them
20:45<benjamingoodger>china was not yet communist
20:45<benjamingoodger>and the Soviets were, throughout the actual war, allied with the, er, Allies
20:46<benjamingoodger>only 68% of american citizens got that correct... it's sickening
20:47<vraa>i got 31 out of 33 correct
20:47<benjamingoodger>are you a US citizen?
20:48<vraa>yeah, i'm from texas
20:48<vraa>and i'm an econ major
20:48<vraa>i think 33 is wrong, i said it's A, the answer it says is D
20:48<vraa>A makes more sense than D
20:48<benjamingoodger>no, it does not
20:48<vraa>i also missed number 7, i'll be honest, i didn't know so i guessed B
20:48<vraa>please explain why
20:49<vraa>if taxes equal government spending, then: tax per person equals government spending per person?
20:49<vraa>that doesn't make sense
20:49<vraa>you can tax 1 guy and spend all his money, then taxes will be equal to gov't spending
20:49<vraa>that doesn't mean that tax per person = gov't spending per person
20:49<appe>i just got heavy problems
20:49<vraa>especially if you taxed him and spent all themoney on hookers and coke
20:49<benjamingoodger>er, actually, it's a matter of simple algebra
20:50<appe>i have multiple trains leaving coal at a station. i accidentaly deleted the station, and rebuilded it. i had to redo the orders on all the trains, but now they refuse to leave everything there, but a small part of it.
20:50<vraa>A is the correct answer for 33. if gov't spends as much as it pulls in in taxes, it can't have a debt of zero
20:50<benjamingoodger>if you collect $1 from everyone and spend it all, then tax = spending ($300m = $300m)
20:50<benjamingoodger>dividing by the number of people gives you the tax per person and the spend per person
20:50<vraa>oh, that's what it means, i thought it meant if it collected 100$, the spending of stuff for that person would be 100$
20:50<benjamingoodger>so divide both sides by 300m
20:50<vraa>yes your way makes a lot more sense
20:51<vraa>well we will chalk that one up to carelessness :(
20:51<benjamingoodger>...and if you have a preexisting debt caused by an illiterate son of an oil baron, and your spending is equal to your income, then you will neither increase nor decrease the debt.
20:51<appe>i dont get it
20:51<vraa>yeah but i thought we were assuming no preexisting debt
20:52<benjamingoodger>why? it doesn't say that
20:52<vraa>i think a few of the questions were vauge, but due to some of the answer choices being oviously wrong, it was easy to pick what the right answer "should" be
20:52<benjamingoodger>#7... yes, I missed that one too. I thought it sounded jeffersonian
20:52<vraa>overall, i think this quiz should be mandatory for the citizenship test
20:52<vraa>and i dont think birthright citizenship should exist
20:52<vraa>some of these questions are thought-provoking
20:52<benjamingoodger>that's a terrible idea
20:53<benjamingoodger>you'd deport hundreds of millions of hardworking morons :P
20:53<appe>quiz? language quiz?
20:53<benjamingoodger>possibly up to 220m people
20:53<vraa>i wouldn't deport...
20:53<vraa>i believe in freemarket of labor
20:53<vraa>no immigration rules/laws/quotas
20:54<benjamingoodger>what do you do to those who don't pass the citizenship test, then?
20:54<vraa>however, citizenship is hard to get
20:54<vraa>they dont get citizenship
20:54<vraa>just because you aren't an american citizen doesn't mean you can't stay in america
20:54<benjamingoodger>how does this affect their lives?
20:54<vraa>you just can't vote, and a few other minor things i believe
20:54<vraa>i would probably expand it though, like being able to own a firearm
20:54<benjamingoodger>so, in other words, you want to restrict voting to a minority of people who know what they're on about
20:54<benjamingoodger>excellent idea!
20:55<appe>my trains only leaves half of what they have
20:55<vraa>i think you have to be an american citizen to vote already
20:55<benjamingoodger>except the part about firearms
20:55<vraa>i think you should have citizenship to own a gun, how is it right now?
20:55<vraa>don't you have to pass background checks and what not, that's good
20:55<vraa>the nice thing about a strict citizenship test means you can use it for other things too
20:55<benjamingoodger>I think you have to have citizenship to own a gun
20:56<benjamingoodger>however, in europe, we simply don't allow the blasted things, and that seems to work rather better
20:56<vraa>but in america the perception of freedom is different
20:56<benjamingoodger>our policemen are unarmed by default, we have no people shooting their families by accident, etc
20:56<benjamingoodger>freedom applies to your right to do stuff to yourself, not to other people
20:56<vraa>america is different from rest of world
20:57<vraa>one of the things the founding fathers thought would be smart to do to ourselves was defend ourselves
20:57<vraa>the right to bear arms is supposed to i think, be to form a militia
20:57<vraa>and be able to over throw the govt
20:57<benjamingoodger>second amendment woot
20:57<vraa>but i think thanks to the spectacularly advanced american military, that's kinda a lost cause
20:58<vraa>i wouldn't want to see a coup though
20:58<vraa>especially in texas
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>You answered 26 out of 33 correctly — 78.79 %
20:58<benjamingoodger>why especially in texas?
20:58<vraa>who doesn't have a gun in texas?
20:58<benjamingoodger>I don't know
20:59<vraa>i dont, but i know the houses on my left and right, across the street, and on their left and right are stocked with guns
20:59<vraa>like gun safes full of guns
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>but i think many of the questions are actually very difficult
20:59<benjamingoodger>we're well aware of that. and, no offence to you personally, this is why we laugh at you
20:59<vraa>i'm sure they've got enough to supply te entire neighborhood, so if it came down to an invasion things would be nuts
20:59<benjamingoodger>well...part of the reason
21:00<vraa>well think of it this way: for many other countries they can identify themselves through their ethnicity
21:00<vraa>in america, it's harder to do that, it's much more synthetic
21:00<benjamingoodger>though really, I must point out that the second amendment is just a hangover from the 1790s, and has no relevance today, particularly as the british army has gone to iraq
21:00<vraa>well hangover or not, there should be more and it should've been more clear
21:00<vraa>i dont think anyone really cares about any of that these days
21:00<vraa>politics just does what it does
21:01<benjamingoodger>if only people hadn't stopped paying attention to the founding fathers
21:02<vraa>can you blame them though
21:02<benjamingoodger>frankly, yes, I can
21:02<vraa>who has the time to pay attention to what goes on
21:02<benjamingoodger>well, I do, and I'm several thousand miles away
21:02<vraa>how many kids do you have, do you work?
21:03<vraa>the problem with politics is that it's driven by those who aren't satisfied with the way things are
21:03<vraa>by the nature of politics, only the most aggressive succeed
21:03<vraa>those who work well at being able to get their way, so the entir eprocess of politics isn't refining to be the most efficient, but by doing the wishes of whoever is in power
21:03<benjamingoodger>I hope never to reproduce, I'm at college studying for an MBA (which here is not a wishy-washy degree for rich and stupid people)
21:03<vraa>it would work better if we had more parties
21:04<benjamingoodger>yes, it would
21:05<benjamingoodger>you don't want to go too far, though
21:05<benjamingoodger>in many european countries there are so many parties that nothing ever gets done because nobody can agree on anything
21:05<vraa>well we can't just have 2, that's stupid. 3 doesn't work either because 1 would always cause the loss of the other
21:05<vraa>i think 5 or more but less than 7
21:05<vraa>i mean less than 10
21:06<vraa>gridlock is fine with me, the less gov't does = better
21:06<benjamingoodger>ah, yes, let's leave everything to large companies. they have our best interests at heart, after all
21:06<Eddi|zuHause><vraa> that doesn't mean that tax per person = gov't spending per person <- if a = b, then a/n = b/n, very simple maths...
21:07<vraa>yeah Eddi|zuHause, i thought that means taxing 100$ from person a means you'll spend 100$ on person a
21:07<vraa>i just completely mis understood the question
21:07<benjamingoodger>well, ideally, you will
21:07<benjamingoodger>otherwise that person is either being subsidised or subsidising
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>well, with a statistical variance ;)
21:07<vraa>yeah corporatism is severely flawed
21:07<benjamingoodger>but if you aren't subsidising anyone, then taxes are useless
21:08<vraa>we'll have a revolution "soon" in government types
21:08<vraa>the government to emerge will be, i think, one of more risky attitudes
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, taxes are so you are forced to pay for something that has no direct benefit for you
21:09<vraa>a government which will tax and then spend money on random super high return high volitility investments
21:09<vraa>like fusion
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>you mean risk even more than a war with half the world?
21:09<vraa>space travel
21:09<vraa>military spending is amazing, it drives so much R&D
21:09<benjamingoodger>strictly speaking, taxation is a counterinflationary measure
21:10<Eddi|zuHause>AGAINST the will of the other half of the world, too?
21:10<vraa>fiat currencies are inflationary inherently
21:10<vraa>who cares about the rest of the world
21:10<vraa>america! fuck yeah!
21:10<benjamingoodger>perhaps, we?
21:10-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:10<benjamingoodger>that is to say, we, the rest of the world
21:10<Eddi|zuHause>the rest of the world, i presume ;)
21:10<vraa>don't worry, as long as you're on the good guys side, you won't be bomed
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm a communist bastard
21:11<benjamingoodger>who gets to decide whether the side we're on is the good side?
21:11<vraa>easy -- yes or no: are you a terrorist
21:11<vraa>if yes, then bomb. if no, exit
21:11<benjamingoodger>your government hasn't been very efficient in that, though
21:12<vraa>that's what happens when you put idiots in charge
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21:12<vraa>america is going through the dumb phase
21:12<benjamingoodger>it has killed countless hundreds of thousands of civilians, and over seven years of "searching" a surprisingly small area of land, has still not located Osama bin Laden
21:12<vraa>the goal never was obl
21:12<vraa>it's to prevent iran from securing regional hegemony
21:13<benjamingoodger>I thought the goal was to prevent iraq from bombing malta?
21:13<vraa>if malta has oil, then yes, that is the goal
21:13<benjamingoodger>and before that, to prevent the taliban from demolishing another pair of office blocks
21:14<Eddi|zuHause>no, the goal was demagogy and bathing in black liquid
21:14<benjamingoodger>malta has no oil, iraq had no bombs
21:14<vraa>iraq has oil though
21:14<benjamingoodger>iraq did start trading oil in euros, however, in 2002
21:14<benjamingoodger>which is bad for the US on so many levels I can't even begin to describe them without accidentally being awarded a PhD in economics
21:14<vraa>therefore, we should invade europe next
21:15<benjamingoodger>...notably, we have no oil either
21:15<benjamingoodger>or terrorists
21:15<vraa>yeah that's why you guys aren't on the target list yet
21:15<benjamingoodger>we do, however, have more money than the US
21:15<benjamingoodger>much more
21:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, britain is an OPEC state
21:15<vraa>lol that's fine
21:15<Eddi|zuHause>and austria was self-supplying with oil for a long time
21:15<benjamingoodger>we have $3.1trn more than you
21:15<vraa>i can't wait until oil is no longer relevant to politics
21:16<vraa>i say 50 years
21:16<benjamingoodger>*cracks knuckles*
21:16<vraa>maybe less, if we can start consuming faster
21:17<Eddi|zuHause>germans just sit on their technology to transform coal into fuel ;)
21:17<vraa>coal is nasty
21:17<benjamingoodger>europe + japan > US by $7trn
21:17<Eddi|zuHause>(developed in the 1940's)
21:18<benjamingoodger>I nearly still remember the formula...
21:18<Eddi|zuHause>"developed" != "invented"
21:18<Eddi|zuHause>"developed" meaning in significant production use
21:18<benjamingoodger>of course, the US could reduce its oil consumption staggeringly quickly by switching to <2.0litre 4cyl diesel engines on new cars
21:19<vraa>no it must increase
21:19<vraa>same with europe
21:19<vraa>high oil prices are a good thing
21:19<benjamingoodger>er, actually, they're not.
21:19<vraa>what are you smoking man
21:19<vraa>the sooner we can run out of oil the better
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>fuel prices dropped by 30% in the past few weeks ;)
21:19<benjamingoodger>see, this is why texas is not known for its economists
21:20<vraa>oil is not going to last forever
21:20<vraa>i tell many republican friends this "you cannot drill yourself out"
21:20<vraa>energy should not be reduced
21:20<benjamingoodger>well, it's cheaper at this point
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>you do realise that oil is not only used for fuel
21:20<vraa>civilizations can be based entirely on how much energy they consume
21:20<benjamingoodger>whoops, didn't mean to say that
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>and now go counting all objects in your house that consist of plastics
21:21<vraa>plastics are chosen because of ease of manufacturing
21:21<vraa>that's not a big deal, i believe in creative destruction
21:21<benjamingoodger>they're chosen for their unique properties
21:21<vraa>and ease of manufacturing
21:21<vraa>that's what design for manufacturing says
21:21<benjamingoodger>they're irreplaceable
21:22<benjamingoodger>besides, have you tried making steel without coal? it's quite difficult, I can assure you!
21:22<benjamingoodger>also glass.
21:22<vraa>coal will run out too
21:22<vraa>all of these are finite
21:22<benjamingoodger>we know this
21:22<benjamingoodger>I'm just a little staggered that you think it's somehow beneficial
21:24<vraa>higher oil prices will drive growth in alternative sources
21:24<benjamingoodger>not really...
21:24<vraa>you should've seen the crap going on a few months ago
21:24<vraa>people wanted oil execs head on pikes
21:25<vraa>tesla was getting major attention
21:25<vraa>chrysler was unveiling 2 electric vehicles, chevy was being critcized about the volt
21:25<vraa>then oil prices dropped
21:25<benjamingoodger>when the tesla is available outside california, be sure to tell me
21:25<vraa>and no one gives a shit anymore
21:25<vraa>tesla is an example of the growth i'm talking about
21:25<benjamingoodger>see, this is the most infuriating thing about fucking americans
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21:26<benjamingoodger>the instant gas prices hit $4/gal, which incidentally is a third of the price it is here, you all swoon for hybrids that do 45mpg
21:26<vraa>they have 5 second long attention spans?
21:26<vraa>yeah and when they go back down, back to the SUVs
21:26<benjamingoodger>no! that's not the point!
21:26<vraa>it'll come to an end soon, it's a by product of american consumerism
21:26<benjamingoodger>a european diesel does 70mpg and costs half the price of a hybrid
21:26<vraa>diesels are nasty
21:26<vraa>besides, hybrids are the future
21:27<benjamingoodger>hybrids are inferior to current diesel technology
21:27<vraa>yeah currently
21:27<benjamingoodger>they're not the future, they're somewhere in the distant past
21:27<vraa>diesel hybrids would be nice
21:27<vraa>i think trains are that way
21:27<vraa>once batteries or whatever are more advanced, then hybrids will become all electrics
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>hybrids do not pose any significant advantage over pure fossil fuel engines
21:27<benjamingoodger>not in the way you are thinking of
21:28<vraa>hybrids are just a transitionary stage
21:28<vraa>just like capitalism is for socialism
21:28<benjamingoodger>they are, therefore, a pointless marketing stunt
21:28<Eddi|zuHause>hybrids have nothing to do with transition
21:28<benjamingoodger>do you mean regulated capitalism?
21:28<benjamingoodger>socialism has been tried, and failed, failed badly
21:28<vraa>no, technological socialism
21:28<vraa>robots can be slaves
21:28<vraa>and it's a lot less immoral
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>how does slavery fit with your impression of what socialism is supposed to be?
21:29<benjamingoodger>..yes, that's a good point
21:30<vraa>i dont think they were tied together
21:30<vraa>unless you wantt o count robots as a "race"
21:30<vraa>which is dumb
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>besides, robots were introduced years ago, and all they did for "socialism" was lowly edjucated workers protesting that they'll lose their jobs
21:30<vraa>it'd be nice if all work was done by robots
21:31<benjamingoodger>you've clearly never been to japan
21:31<benjamingoodger>by the way, in what measure are diesels nasty?
21:31<vraa>i've heard japanese culture is so xenophobic, they would rather have robots rather than fillipina maids
21:31<vraa>nasty doesn't mean disgusting, nasty just means unacceptable
21:31<vraa>diesels are popular, in trucks
21:31<benjamingoodger>why are they unacceptable, then?
21:32<vraa>probably something that happened in ghte 80s
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21:32<vraa>i dunno, diesels were dead before i was aware of my environment
21:32<benjamingoodger>so you don't know
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21:32<Eddi|zuHause>diesels are dead? in which world?
21:33<benjamingoodger>the US
21:33<vraa>the problem i think boils down to a lack of serious competition
21:33<Eddi|zuHause>the number of diesel cars is consistently rising in europe for decades
21:33<vraa>who is going to build a diesel car in america
21:33<vraa>ford and gm are incapable of doing ANYTHING
21:33<vraa>toyota and honda are on the hybrid wagon
21:33<benjamingoodger>actually, Ford Europe produce one of the finest diesels in the world
21:33<vraa>ford europe is the only part of ford that is awake
21:33<benjamingoodger>Opel [GM's euro subsidiary] also produce very, very good diesel engines
21:33<vraa>the rest of ford is dying, dead, or in the process of being shot in the pasture
21:34<benjamingoodger>I'm well aware of this
21:34<vraa>opel the same, there is a reason why a chinese company wants to buy open for 1.6$b
21:34<Eddi|zuHause>opel only still exists for GM to drain germany's car subsidies
21:35<benjamingoodger>I wouldn't know
21:35<benjamingoodger>but I do know they make good cars
21:35<vraa>maybe in europe
21:35<vraa>in america, american cars suck. hard.
21:36<benjamingoodger>actually, they build them in the US also
21:36<benjamingoodger>you've never heard of Saturn?
21:36<vraa>i have, they make plastic cars
21:36<vraa>one of their commericals had a fat kid run into the side of the car and bounce off
21:36<benjamingoodger>that's Opel's brand in the US
21:36<benjamingoodger>the Saturn Astra is a runaway success in the United Kingdom
21:37<benjamingoodger>and it comes with a really good diesel engine
21:37<benjamingoodger>the Honda Accord and Toyota Corolla also come with really good diesels in the UK
21:37<vraa>and in india too
21:37<benjamingoodger>no doubt
21:37<benjamingoodger>so, overall, there is no excuse for the US not to use diesels
21:37<benjamingoodger>it's even cheaper per gallon
21:38<vraa>i wonder if it's a chicken or the egg situation
21:38<benjamingoodger>I think it's the egg
21:38<benjamingoodger>when gas prices get high enough, diesel infrastructure will start to appear, and people will start buying diesel consumer cars
21:39<vraa>so we go back to 'high gas prices = good'
21:39<vraa>i think at the very minimum, gas prices in usa should equal that of those in UK
21:39<vraa>i heard in UK it's equal to 7$/gal
21:39<benjamingoodger>let me check
21:39<benjamingoodger>it's been plummetting recently
21:39<benjamingoodger>obviously so has the pound relative to the dollar
21:40<benjamingoodger>atm it's $5/gal
21:40<benjamingoodger>or 90.9p/litre
21:40<benjamingoodger>but it hit £1.16/litre not so long ago
21:41<benjamingoodger>however, considering the recent drops in crude prices, it ought to be around 80p
21:41<vraa>i saw 1.70 something today for regular
21:41<vraa>2.10 or so for 94 premium/supreme or whatever the top is
21:41<benjamingoodger>good GOD
21:41<vraa>94 octane?
21:42<benjamingoodger>our regular is 95
21:42<vraa>2.10$/gal for 94 octane
21:42<benjamingoodger>premium is 98
21:42<benjamingoodger>98 is currently at $5.90
21:42<benjamingoodger>by christ, you people put dishwater into your cars
21:42<benjamingoodger>no wonder they run so poorly
21:43<+glx>$5.90 is a lot
21:43<@Belugas>75.9/litre in here nice price
21:43<+glx>ho it's per gal
21:43<+glx>silly units
21:44<benjamingoodger>glx: £1.06/l
21:44<benjamingoodger>that's, what, 1.17 €/l at current exchange rates
21:44<benjamingoodger>that's for premium 98, though
21:44<benjamingoodger>and it's continuing to, well, collapse
21:44<+glx>20 days ago it was 1.241€/l
21:45<@Belugas>ho.. true... cheaper price, but crappier quality
21:45<benjamingoodger>I buy the 95, because I can't afford to buy it at all
21:46<benjamingoodger>as my car is a 1996 petrol engine that gets about 9.5 l/100km
21:46<+glx>I buy 98 because the car was designed for 97
21:46<benjamingoodger>ironically, it has "premium 95" stamped on the filler cap ^^
21:47<vraa>really? i think it goes from 84 87 to 91 or 94 octane
21:47<vraa>depending on where you go
21:47<benjamingoodger>good grief
21:47<vraa>race gas is 104 or higher octane, at least here in texas
21:47<Eddi|zuHause><benjamingoodger> NINETY-FOUR? <- the americans use a different system for determining octane numbers
21:47<benjamingoodger>I think it's a minimum of 95 by law here
21:47<vraa>yeah (R+S)/M or something weird
21:47<Eddi|zuHause>it's roughly 4 to 5 numbers lower
21:47<+glx>well the car was designed for super in 1978 (dunno what octane it was at that time) but it's a '88 model and in 1988 it was 97
21:48<vraa>87 here is 91-92 for you guys
21:48<vraa>there is about a 5 point spread
21:48<vraa>so 100 for you guys is 95 for us
21:49<vraa>that's what wikipedia is saying
21:49<benjamingoodger>in that case, 98 would be ~93
21:49<benjamingoodger>ok, that's acceptable
21:49<+glx>depends on researched octane and real octane IIRC
21:49<benjamingoodger>nonetheless, 84 is ludicrously crappy
21:49<vraa>~93 would only go in nice cars
21:49<vraa>84 doesn't exist, sorry
21:49<vraa>87 is the lowest
21:50<+glx>I rememember seeing 97 (87) at the time leaded super was still available
21:50<vraa>usually my gas tation as 87, 89, and 94 i think
21:50<Eddi|zuHause>95 is the standard in germany nowadays, the 91 one is subsequently phased out
21:50<vraa>i know in germany they take driving and cars seriously
21:50<Eddi|zuHause>started by the fact that they are the same price now ;)
21:50<vraa>i wish america had strict regulation like germany
21:51<+glx>95 is eurosuper :)
21:51<vraa>our roads here are less thick, so they are lesser quality, and our yearly automotive inspections are a joke
21:51<vraa>to obtain a drivers license, you dont even have to drive a car
21:51<+glx>everything with wheels and engine is allowed in USA I think
21:52<vraa>pretty much, if not under regular rules, under kit car rules
21:52<benjamingoodger>my father failed his driving test four times
21:52<+glx>I needed 3 times to get it
21:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, germany is at the higher end of the "food chain" for cars...
21:53<benjamingoodger>he had a vehicle known as a reliant robin, which was a nasty little three-wheeled van
21:53<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: TUV is the stricter
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>cars that get sold because they are not traffic-safe anymore go to eastern europe, africa or south america ;)
21:53<benjamingoodger>this was driveable on a motorcycle license, but you could take your car driving test in it
21:54<benjamingoodger>so my father drove his reliant robin, on his motorcycle license, to the test centre, failed his car driving test in it, and then drove it home again on the motorcycle license
21:54<benjamingoodger>fortunately, that particular loophole has been plugged, and driving tests are now a gruelling ordeal
21:54<benjamingoodger>which made me, passing it first time in May this year, all the more proud ^^
21:54<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand how you can fail a driving test...
21:55<+glx>round about
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>you spend weeks and thousands of euro in training
21:55<benjamingoodger>stalling is an instant fail here
21:55<+glx>2 times :)
21:56<+glx>(bad placement and no indicators but the round about was empty)
21:56<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, the french kinda overdid it with the roundabouts :p
21:56<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: you know not the meaning of the phrase "roundabout overuse"
21:56<+glx>the magic one?
21:56<benjamingoodger>in britain, we use our invention (the mini-roundabout, which is a white circle on the ground) as a traffic calming measure
21:57<Eddi|zuHause>the abominations in britain do not count ;)
21:57<benjamingoodger>oh, yes, there's also the magic roundabout... *shudder*
21:58<Eddi|zuHause>use of roundabouts has increased here, too... i find them silly...
21:58<+glx>better than having to wait for green light
21:58<Eddi|zuHause>if the crossing gets overfull, put a god damn traffic light
21:58<benjamingoodger>oh, we have traffic lights on roundabouts too
21:58<benjamingoodger>don't think we haven't thought of that =P
21:59<+glx>here too, it's just silly
22:00<benjamingoodger>our national speed limit is too low as well
22:00<Eddi|zuHause>we have a roundabout here, which was considered the most heavlily used road junction in eastern germany. it had tram lines crossing it on multiple places, completely without traffic regulation
22:01<Eddi|zuHause>now they put the tram lines one level below the road, and put up traffic lights on the entrances. now it is actually safe to cross that junction :p
22:01<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, there were rarely days with less than 3 accidents on that place
22:02<Eddi|zuHause>typically tram vs. car
22:03<Eddi|zuHause>and typically the tram won :p
22:03<benjamingoodger>well, of course
22:07<benjamingoodger>my dehumidifier seems to be working far too well
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22:07<benjamingoodger>I wouldn't have thought the air in this room would even contain a litre of water, let alone be extractable over the course of twenty minutes
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22:12<Eddi|zuHause>just do the maths, if your room has 12m², and is 2,5m high, how many liters of air is that? and when you derive 1l of water from that, how high is the difference in humidity levels?
22:14<Eddi|zuHause>you'd need to figure in the average density of air, though
22:15<benjamingoodger>you know, I really can't be bothered :P
22:15<benjamingoodger>besides, the room isn't a sealed unit
22:15<benjamingoodger>and neither is it rectangular
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, 12m² is an average room in a central european home, i just gave that as a general figure ;)
22:19<benjamingoodger>very well
22:19<Eddi|zuHause>you certainly don't have your window wide open at these kinds of temperatures ;)
22:19<+glx>2.5m height is not ;)
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22:19<benjamingoodger>no, but the door is open
22:20<benjamingoodger>the height may well be about 220cm or there abouts...
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>and you have oceanic climate, so you have higher average humidity levels anyway
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>2,20m? you live in the cellar or something?
22:21<benjamingoodger>I think it's called "maritime"
22:21<benjamingoodger>no, it's a bungalow
22:21<benjamingoodger>hang on, I will try and find a tape measure
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'd get claustrophobic in that kind of narrow space
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>my room is 2,60m iirc
22:22<+glx>mine is 1,10 to 2,20 IIRC
22:22<benjamingoodger>the room is 260cm tall
22:24<benjamingoodger>and I'm 185...
22:24<benjamingoodger>damn, I always wanted to be a bit taller than that
22:25<Eddi|zuHause>i barely fit through regular doors
22:25<benjamingoodger>lucky you
22:25<benjamingoodger>I've learned to time my walking so that my head is at its lowest point when going under doors, to avoid hitting it on the frame
22:27<Eddi|zuHause>funny, i've learned to just drag my head in :)
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---Logclosed Sat Nov 22 00:00:14 2008