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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-28

---Logopened Fri Nov 28 00:00:34 2008
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04:33<@Celestar>idiots. Air Berlin wants 25 EUR fuel surcharge from Munich to Hamburg.
04:33<@Celestar>the whole fuel for a single passenger costs hardly that much....
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04:57<@Celestar>oh man. why are word processors that horrible in creating texts :P
04:57<planetmaker>Celestar: otherwise they'd be called text processors. Not word processors ;)
04:58<@Celestar>apparently :P
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04:58<@Celestar>it's really a pita
04:58<@Celestar>it's ok as long as you have a single column document with no pictures or anything
05:01<planetmaker>hehe, yes. LaTeX rulez ;)
05:01<@Celestar>yes. but those people want their abstracts in *.doc or *.rtf
05:01<@Celestar>and I don't have a decent latex-to-rtf converter
05:01<planetmaker>but it's not good at placing images in an exact location either...
05:01<planetmaker>Celestar: yeah, I know that problem...
05:01<planetmaker>Send it in plain txt.
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05:07<@Rubidium>Celestar: plain text file, rename to .doc
05:07<@Rubidium>or use some exotic variant of *.doc
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05:25<Eddi|zuHause>make the .tex into a .pdf, put the .pdf into the .doc as an embedded OLE Object?
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, you have to abuse these kind of rules to the furthest way possible ;)
05:26<@Celestar>like many of my colleagues who send screenshots in a word document :S
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>as long as the screenshot is a BMP or a TIFF ;)
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>why does my diploma thesis not write itself?
05:29<@Rubidium>because your thesis research about self writing theses is flawed
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>hm, but then at least i'd have a basis to argue why it's flawed ;)
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>scientifical studies do not have to yield "success" to get good grades ;)
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>it wouldn't be science when we knew the results beforehand ;)
05:31<@Rubidium>yup.. as long as you describe exhaustively how you research is flawed you'll get a good grade
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05:35<@Celestar>I've already given out a 1.0 once for a thesis that discovered that some modelling approach failed and explained the reasons in detail.
05:36<@Rubidium>hmm... German grades? What would it be if graded from 1 (worst) to 10 (best) (6 = pass)
05:39<@Rubidium>interesting rounding... 2- -> 2.3, 2+ -> 1.7
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's perfectly well rounded from 2.333... and 1.6666... to 1 decimal
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: the really interesting question is why do you need 4 different shades of "not passed"?
05:54<@Rubidium>no idea
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>or 5 even
05:56<@Celestar>Rubidium: 1.0 is the best (=
05:56<@Rubidium>probably the same reason that for beta courses (science stuff) to get a 6 you need 60% correct and for alpha courses (language stuff) you need 80% correct to get a 6 (i.e. pass). Why may you make twice the amount of errors for beta courses than for alpha courses?
05:56<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it's mathematically consistent though ;)
05:57<@Rubidium>the Danish system amazes me even more
05:57<@Rubidium>highest grade ranges from -3 to 12 in 7 steps (according to Wikipedia)
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05:58<Eddi|zuHause>errr... what?!
06:01<@Rubidium>hmm... and I seem to be writing other things than I thought I wrote :(
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06:35<@petern>just managed to create a file called "*.blah" where ".blah" is a common ending for lots of files in the directory...
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06:45<@Celestar>the Bugatti Veyron GT will have a peak power of 1MW
06:45<@Celestar>hm .. an ICE 3 can reach the same velocty with about 9 MW.
06:45<@Celestar>yet it offers 400 seats instead of two.
06:45<mrfrenzy>but not as fast ;)
06:46<@Celestar>mrfrenzy: the ICE 3 can go over 400km/h
06:46<mrfrenzy>I'm talking about acceleration
06:46<mrfrenzy>still, a roadcar with over 300hp is ridiculous
06:46<@Celestar>the Veyron at max speed empties a fuel tank in just under 12 minutes.
06:47<@Celestar>refuelling for 6 minutes every 12 minutes has a pretty shitty effect on your mean velocity :P
06:47<mrfrenzy>indeed ;)
06:47<@Celestar>12 Minutes.
06:47<@Celestar>I doubt even a fighter jet manages to drain the tanks in 12 Minutes.
06:47<@Celestar>the Space Shuttle needs almost 9 :P
06:48<@Celestar>ok granted, it's tank is a bit larger...
06:48<mrfrenzy>I think with afterburners it empties the tank in 10 minutes or so
06:48<mrfrenzy>but then the speed is a lot higher than the veyron ;)
06:49<@Celestar>about Mach 2 :P
06:50<@Celestar>well the Veyron GT needs 2.4 seconds from 0 to 100km/h
06:50<@Celestar>and 2.2 seconds for 100km/h to 0.
06:51<@Celestar>let's see.
06:52<@Celestar>a Piper Malibu Mirage has 6 seats, a top speed of 430km/h, the same price and a range of 2500kmh
06:53<@Celestar>and it can have a loo :P
06:54<mrfrenzy>I doubt anyone gets the veyron for cost efficiency ;)
06:54<@Celestar>I'm not talk about cost
06:54<@Celestar>I'm talking about performance :P
06:54<mrfrenzy>but I see you are doing openttd calculations ;) amount of cargotiles per day vs investment and running
06:54<@Celestar>and, I go 430km/h in most airspaces. On highways, it get's a _little_ difficult
06:55<mrfrenzy>it's in the blodd
06:55<@Celestar>If you wanna go from A to B FAST (if the distance is over like 100km), a car is usually not a good way to do so
06:56<mrfrenzy>yep we noticed that, going from jonkoping sweden to berlin, six people, is cheaper by plane than it is sharing a car
06:56<@Celestar>if I want bragging rights, I get an A380 for personal transportation not a Veyron
06:57<mrfrenzy>the A380 is just damn hard to bring to parties :P
06:57<@Celestar>what good is that? You have the party IN the A380.
06:58<@Celestar>and if you throw people outta the party if you don't like them, you can be pretty sure they'll never return again (=
06:59<mrfrenzy>that's an added feature I would have liked a few times :P
06:59<thingwath>is it possible to throw out things from plane while in air?
06:59<mrfrenzy>most certainly
06:59<@Celestar>possible, and allowed
06:59<@Celestar>you just have to make sure it doesn't cause damage on the ground :P
06:59<mrfrenzy>how do you think parachute jumpers get out?
07:00<thingwath>from A380?
07:00<@Celestar>they diffuse through the hull
07:00<@Celestar>thingwath: there are in-flight emergency exits.
07:00<@Celestar>at least the prototype of the Do328 had one
07:01<thingwath>I can imagine throwing out things from bomber :-)
07:01<@Celestar>er .. price for Munich-Hamburg round trip on the ICE went down from over 400 EUR to 137 EUR O_o
07:02<@Celestar>two people
07:02*Celestar books it
07:03<@Celestar>that's not bad for an 800km trip
07:03<@Celestar>(one way)
07:04<mrfrenzy>It still puzzles me though that train is more expensive than air
07:04<@Celestar>mrfrenzy: why does it puzzle you
07:04<mrfrenzy>the running costs should be lower, at the same time as it takes more pax
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07:05<@Celestar>infrastructure cost for trains grow superlinearly with distance. infrastructure cost for planes are basically independent of distance.
07:05<mrfrenzy>electricity is a hell of a lot more efficient
07:05<@Celestar>mrfrenzy: it's not.
07:05<@Celestar>mrfrenzy: overall efficiency of an electric train is comparable to a modern airplane.
07:06<@Rubidium>Celestar: that depends on the distance and the cargo ;)
07:06<mrfrenzy>ooh, it was a lot more efficient than I ghought
07:07<@Celestar>Rubidium: distance from about 500-800km, cargo is human beings.
07:07<@Celestar>mrfrenzy: what is more efficient than you thought?
07:07<mrfrenzy>jet engines
07:07<@Celestar>mrfrenzy: most modern power plants are modified jet engines, you know (=
07:07<mrfrenzy>I thought it was similar to internal combustion engines
07:08<@Celestar>internatl combustion engines are not bad, provided you run them at around rated power.
07:08<@Celestar>they're horrible in part-loads
07:08<mrfrenzy>well that is the problem
07:08<mrfrenzy>you only run them at rated load for 1% of the time
07:09<@Celestar>but jet engines are different
07:09<@Celestar>better in part load, and more often run at rated output
07:10<mrfrenzy>yeah, I assume it has been calculated at which speeds you get best fuel economy
07:10<@Celestar>mrfrenzy: yes.
07:10<@Celestar>mrfrenzy: the thing is, what one has to understand with fixed-wing aircraft is that drag does not increase with v².
07:11<mrfrenzy>this is all very interesting, but I have to go back to work now ;) laters
07:17<@Celestar>why doesn't some people understand the GPL
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07:26<@Celestar>sorry :P
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07:34<Ammler>Celestar: there should be a cc license like gpl
07:35<Ammler>without the warranty thing.
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08:03<@Celestar>Abstract finished :P
08:08<SmatZ>gratz :)
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08:13<@Celestar>rtfs and images are basically incompatible, aren't they?
08:13<@Rubidium>yes, unless they are aa-ified images
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09:00<Atya>hi all
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09:53<nicfer>question, is possible to reduce the amount of farms fields?
09:53<planetmaker>answer: no. Unless you modify source code.
09:53<planetmaker>(or build on the space where they are)
09:54<nicfer>oh, like adding 'fields' to other industries right?
09:58<yorick>adding them to other industries is a newgrf feature
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09:58<nicfer>oh cool
09:59<nicfer>so it would be possible a grf that adds fields to all primary industries, if you made the graphics?
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10:01<Ammler>nicfer: you can only enable/disable it, nothing more
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10:03<Ammler>if you would change the graphics, you would also change it for the farms, afaik.
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10:04<nicfer>ok, I'll forget it
10:05<nicfer>I'll focus now on changing the temperate forest with the tropical 'sawmill'
10:05<nicfer>or was it lumberjack?
10:06<yorick>also a grf feature ;)
10:06<Ammler>nicfer: something like that: ;-)
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10:09<Ammler>maybe the Industry Tile properity could help you:
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10:12<nicfer>Ammler's solution is good
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10:14<DASPRiD>pm :)
10:15*planetmaker waves 'hello'
10:17*yorick waves 'hello'
10:24<nicfer>one question, is there some alpha release of the open sound effects project?
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10:44*DASPRiD waves to planetmaker
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10:47<Ammler>DASPRiD: use /msg, else someone else then pm might snatch it... ;-)
10:47<DASPRiD>Ammler, they may :)
10:47<DASPRiD>just listen to it :)
10:48<planetmaker>:) Ok, when I'm home :)
10:48<DASPRiD>nah you can listen to it at work
10:49<DASPRiD>thats a pretty awesome cover
10:49<DASPRiD>my cover is just half as good as that one :(
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13:45-!-Xeryus is now known as Xeryus|afk
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r14640 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-28 18:47:35
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 1 fixed by Ar4i (1)
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1)
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 43 fixed by knovak (43)
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: esperanto - 3 fixed by Athaba (3)
13:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: estonian - 8 fixed by t2t2 (8)
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14:13<DJNekkid>how come wagons dont dissappear when they expire? and yes, "never expire"-setting is off
14:19<DJNekkid>wow, lively here today
14:20<Patrick>DJNekkid: they just get obsolete
14:20<Patrick>and don't whine when you don't get an instant answer
14:21<yorick>you shouldn't answer questions you know get asked
14:21<yorick>and then you get those questions and instant answers ;)
14:22<DJNekkid>Patrick: well, sorry about that ... however... i'm the author of the 2cc set (in case you didnt know), but the wagons that use extended date format (action0 prop 2A) dont seem to go away as they should
14:22<Patrick>no idea then
14:23<DJNekkid>hehe, didnt think so ;)
14:24<yorick>you're the spiritual descendant of the newgrf gods, you should know...
14:25<SuomiPoika>Reason: Assertion failed at ..\src\spritecache.cpp:492: sprite < _spritecache_items
14:25<SuomiPoika>what does that mean?
14:26<SuomiPoika>crash report...
14:26<DJNekkid>my guess is a bug in the nightlies
14:26<DJNekkid>and/or a newgrf
14:26<SuomiPoika>it is nightly...
14:31<SuomiPoika>is there going to be translated version of ottd homepage?
14:31<SuomiPoika>just thinking bc of the address
14:34<SpComb>"This privacy statement is based on an original template created by and distributed by"
14:36<Aali>SuomiPoika: did you file a bug report about the font issue?
14:38<@petern>DJNekkid, ottd has never expired wagons
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14:38<DJNekkid>petern: so it seems...
14:39<DJNekkid>i mean, that is my conclution as well
14:39<DJNekkid>i did some testing playing with some numbers...
14:39<DJNekkid>is that possible to add tho?
14:43<DJNekkid>or is it possible to use some kind of var2 to remove them... hmm
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14:56<Aali>does the close airports patch have any chance of hitting trunk?
14:58<planetmaker>Aali: if the gui is reworked, maybe
14:58<SuomiPoika>aali i didnt make bug report.. im too dum :D
15:00<Aali>SuomiPoika: heh, just take a screenshot, type in something along the lines of "finnish uses this unreadable font for no reason" and you'll be fine
15:01<Aali>planetmaker: whats wrong with the current gui? (from the devs standpoint, personally i dont like it either)
15:01<planetmaker>Aali: I remember that someone somewhen mentioned that a "close airport" button for train stations and bus stops is somehwat... not needed and sub-standard
15:02<planetmaker>and I agree with that :)
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15:02<Aali>yeah, thats awful
15:02<Aali>and the button is more than a little too big
15:02<planetmaker>You're going to tackle it?
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15:05<Aali>err, probably not unless there's a real interest from the devs to include it
15:06<planetmaker>I've no good idea how to re-design the gui though. A 2nd button line is needed in that case.
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15:09<Aali>a small graphical button could do it, saves you the extra line, too
15:10<Aali>not as obvious and easy to find, but if you know what you're looking for it should be okay
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15:23<planetmaker>hm... I just got an idea... how to seperate that stuff...
15:23<planetmaker>not about the button, though, but that's the minor worry actually IMO
15:24<fjb>Infrastructure sharing?
15:25<Aali>fjb: close airports :)
15:25<planetmaker>not really. close airports
15:25<planetmaker>but very handy for IS...
15:27<fjb>Ah, ok, guessing it from 4 lines of text was not that easy as I thought.
15:28<planetmaker>hm... given stationID... how do I determin whether it has an airport or not?
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15:31<planetmaker>that's part of station.
15:31<planetmaker>Is there GetStation(stationID)
15:31<planetmaker>k :)
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15:35<nicfer>erm, are there any newgrf that does something similar to the OCS, aka putting all the primary industries that aren't in temperate in there and making secondary industries accepting their cargos?
15:36<frosch123>not that I know of
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15:38<frosch123>when you want to code it yourself you have to take a look at Action0 for cargos and industries. (and the always needed Action8)
15:38<planetmaker>Thx a lot, frosch123, petern - now it works. I guess I should more often just try on good chance the obvious function name for such conversions ;)
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15:39<frosch123>planetmaker: hint, those GetXXX functions are created by the create pool macro. So they work all the same :)
15:40<planetmaker>ah :) Another thing learnt... :) Macros are still a mystery to me... poking in the fog ;)
15:40<nicfer>because I find current industry replacement newgrfs kinda unfitting to the original ones
15:48<frosch123>nicfer: you can also wait until is finished
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15:49<nicfer>hmmm, wasn't Korenn working on it?
15:50-!-batti5 [~batti5@] has joined #openttd
15:51<batti5>hi all, i finally got timidity to work with ottd
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15:57<nicfer>batti5 = jasperthecat right?
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16:07<yorick>I hope not...
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16:13<nicfer>when the towngrowth challenge becomes complete, would be available the industry layout as a separate component so it can be used outside of that mod¿
16:14<DJNekkid>isnt 15k population a bit small to be a capital-class city?
16:14<planetmaker>the close airport button now only appears, if the station has an airport :)
16:15<DJNekkid>atleast, 15k5c as max size...
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16:38<Aali>planetmaker: couldn't you just hide the button when the station doesn't have an airport? duplicating the whole station window to make some minor changes isn't very pretty :P
16:39<planetmaker>That's - as I understand it - not possible by design.
16:39<planetmaker>you have to supply a widget list upon creation. Thus the widget list needs to be doubled.
16:40<planetmaker>And that's the only thing which I double.
16:40<planetmaker>The widget arangement.
16:40<Aali>sure, but you can still hide widgets in the OnPaint method
16:41<planetmaker>oh, yes? I didn't know that. But then, the window size is different...
16:41<Aali>there will be an empty spot where the button is, of course
16:41<frosch123>planetmaker: take a look at the QueryWindows
16:41<planetmaker>Which again looks a bit funny, Aali
16:41<frosch123>some of them have a reset to default button, some do not
16:41<yorick>planetmaker: SetWidgetHiddenState
16:41<planetmaker>hm... I'll look at it... :)
16:42<Aali>can you resize widgets in the OnPaint method?
16:42<planetmaker>frosch123: which query windows? E.g. land tile query? or...?
16:42<yorick>Aali: yep
16:42<planetmaker>Aali: yes... but the button has text. It would look ugly
16:42<Aali>so, we remove the text
16:42<yorick>you can redraw the text
16:42<frosch123>planetmaker: text input windows
16:43<planetmaker>ah, those...
16:43<Aali>a small graphical button that fits in with the other buttons could be squeezed in for airports and hidden for other stations
16:44<Aali>like a stop sign or whatever
16:44<planetmaker>Aali: my idea was to make a 2nd button line with the same buttons as road/ship/train/air - but with the functionality to close that transportation type
16:44<planetmaker>(like those buttons which supply the vehicle lists)
16:44<yorick>just add a resizing button and hide it if there's not an airport
16:44<Aali>i thought about that too, but closing other station types doesn't make much sense
16:45<planetmaker>yorick: there is already a resizing button.
16:45<planetmaker>Aali: it does with IS ;)
16:45<yorick>yes :)
16:45<yorick>Aali: I said hide it ;)
16:46<Aali>well, the problem is that it affects the whole station
16:46<yorick>make a "close airport"
16:46<Aali>if you could close individual road stops/platforms that would be great
16:46<Aali>but thats not going to happen
16:46<planetmaker>Aali: there's a removal tool... ;)
16:48<fjb>And signals (for closing platforms).
16:50<Aali>I don't see how that makes the station-closing feature more useful
16:51<Aali>the problem with airports is that you can't stop aircraft in the air, the other vehicles don't have this problem
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16:51<planetmaker>Aali: again: with IS you have ;)
16:51<Aali>not really
16:52<planetmaker>for road & ship you do. Not for train where you can control trains on your tracks
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16:52<Aali>you can still stop your RVs and block the road (if you don't own the road)
16:53<planetmaker>sure, you can do that :)
16:54<Aali>and ships? dont know, dont care :P
16:55<ccfreak2k>Make 'em queue in a lock?
16:56<fjb>No, ships pass through each other like ghost ships.
16:56<Aali>since no-one can own water i guess you could just raise land around your docks
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17:01<fjb>What happens if you blow up all the water around the ship?
17:02<yorick>it floods back from the shiptile
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17:03<fjb>So you have to blow up the ship too.
17:03<yorick>you can't
17:05<fjb>But there is a submarine in the game.
17:07<fjb>You can blow up ships.
17:07<@Belugas>you can?
17:08<fjb>Ofcourse. What else is a black submarine for?
17:09<nicfer>I know how to block a ship
17:09<nicfer>just cage it inside some ship depots
17:10<Aali>see, that is some creative thinking
17:10<Aali>problem solved
17:10<nicfer>I've seen it in some mp servers
17:10<nicfer>so, say thanks to unfair people
17:13<Aali>total asshole tactic - yes, unfair - not really
17:14<nicfer>one question, do ttdpatch devs help in the development of openttd?
17:16<nicfer>as well as the inverse method right?
17:16<nicfer>method -> way
17:16<frosch123>some patchdevs even contributed patches
17:16<@Rubidium>that too (I think)
17:16<frosch123>I do not know about the reverse
17:17<@Rubidium>frosch123: pointing out bugs/inconsistencies etc
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>80% of the development of openttd were driven by the fact that ttdpatch already had feature XYZ
17:17<frosch123>yes, I meant noone wrote code for ttdp
17:17<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: lately it seems to be shifting the other way around
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>no sane person writes code in assembler :p
17:18<nicfer>except chris sawyer
17:18<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: I have read NoAI is as big as newgrf. Haven't checked myself though
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>well... but probably s/in assembler// :p
17:19<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no sane person writes good code ;p
17:19<Aali>NoAI is 1.3MB in patch format
17:19<fjb>We are all insane!
17:19<nicfer>this is madness!
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>are you going to deny your insanity?
17:20<nicfer>madness? this is sparta!!!
17:20<fjb>I am writing code. So I am.
17:20<nicfer>lol, I couldn't resist
17:21<@Rubidium>frosch123: linecount of newgrf* is about 15000, linecount of ai/*.?pp and ai/api/*.?pp is about 15500 (that is without generated code)
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>but newgrf* had a longer development time
17:24<@Rubidium>that's probably debateable depending on the definition of longer
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>most code metrics are debatable...
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>and newgrf* is not the only thing that was driven by prior TTDP development
17:26<fjb>The town growth challenge looks like fun. I just saw it today while looking for the rail and road type pages.
17:26<@Rubidium>one code metric I'm quite sure of: lines of comment per lines of real code ratio of NoAI is bigger than newgrf*
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>is "the town growth challenge" anything more than a wiki page?
17:27<fjb>In the beginning was a wiki page...
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17:32<fjb>Is there a testable version of the rail and road types?
17:38<@Rubidium>most likely there is; petern does usually not make mockups
17:40<fjb>I know that he doesn't make mockups. The question was if it is in a testable state yet.
17:41<fjb>Hm, I had a link to Peters directory with some patches (e.g. bridges over low platforms) but I don't find it anymore.
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18:11<Nite_Owl>Hello all
18:11<BlueEagle_NL>hello nite_owl
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18:19-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:20<fjb>Hi Nite_Owl
18:23<meush>hi Sacro :P
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: i can find it.
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18:28<Sacro>argh a meush
18:28<Sacro>long time no see, how are you?
18:28<meush>it's been a long time Sacro
18:28<meush>I'm in Canada now
18:28<meush>with Belugas :p
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18:29<meush>how about you?
18:29<meush>are you on university?
18:29<Sacro>ooh, i'm still in hull, at uni
18:29<Sacro>yeah, 2nd year CS
18:30<meush>is it in engineering faculty? would you mind sharing a bit info with me?
18:30<meush>I'm still a bit confused about universities here
18:30<Sacro>errm.. not sure what to say
18:30<Sacro>is in the science faculty
18:31<meush>CS is computer science, isn't it?
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18:32<meush>do you deal with hardware, or do you rather write software?
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18:40<Sacro>ah, alright
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19:47<@Belugas>hu?? meush in in Canada? ?
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20:04*rortom is not in Canada
20:05*Eddi|zuHause is not either
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20:08*benjamingoodger is 2130 miles away from canada
20:26<@Belugas>i'm in canada
20:26<@Belugas>i'm in my house
20:26<@Belugas>i'm on my chair
20:26<benjamingoodger>we know, damn it
20:26<@Belugas>i'm back to tv time
20:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14641 /trunk/src/video/ (allegro_v.cpp sdl_v.cpp):
20:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Change [Allegro]: when making a debug build revert Allegro's hooks on SIGSEGV/SIGABRT so one can actually use gdb.
20:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Change: make it more clear that Allegro's failing to find a driver.
20:28*rortom is in england :|
20:28*benjamingoodger is in england also
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20:38<@Belugas>don't be sorry, being in England is not bad :)
20:39<@Belugas>it's not a tare ;)
20:55<@Belugas>bad dico
20:56<@Belugas>defect might be closer
20:56<benjamingoodger>"tare" is a button you push on electric scales so that they are reset to zero
20:59<rortom>the weather and the economic situation is quite bad in the UK atm :/
21:00<benjamingoodger>good lord
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21:00<rortom>yeah, british humor ftw :|
21:01<benjamingoodger>I was so busy tidying up my little under-rock living space here that I completely failed to notice the sub-zero temperatures, job losses, foreclosures, businesses going into administration, and liquidity crisis
21:04<rortom>im german, and it hit the UK harder i believe?
21:05<rortom>thus im not into the UK economy so much ;)
21:06<benjamingoodger>we're screwed, germany is comparatively OK
21:08-!-De_Ghosty [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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21:13<benjamingoodger>the problem being, the banks have been lending money to people who can't possibly pay it back
21:14<benjamingoodger>some of them have recently realised that this is a bad idea
21:14<benjamingoodger>so now most of them aren't lending money to anyone any more
21:15<benjamingoodger>and this is generally viewed as a bad thing, because lending is the foundation of all business expansion, and also what keeps businesses running during recessions
21:15<benjamingoodger>so businesses are closing down, banks are laying off tens of thousands of employees, people are becoming unemployed, spending less, more businesses fail, etc and we end up with a depression
21:17<rortom>quite down siral somehow
21:18<benjamingoodger>german banks have not been lending nearly as much money to people who can't pay it back
21:18<rortom>our company even cancelled christmas dinner :(
21:18<benjamingoodger>french banks haven't been doing it very much at all, nor have spanish banks
21:18<benjamingoodger>consequently france and spain are saying "recession? what recession?"
21:18<benjamingoodger>as far as I can tell
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21:18<rortom>good for them :)
21:19<rortom>but u think the US is the worst atm?
21:19<rortom>google even cancels projects / frees employees ...
21:19<benjamingoodger>difficult to say which is worse, the US or the UK
21:20<benjamingoodger>the US is going into a worse recession
21:20<benjamingoodger>however, you must realise that the whole economy of the UK is basically banks
21:20<rortom>the downfall of the british pound is not funny :(
21:21<benjamingoodger>if you take away our banks, we don't do anything
21:21<rortom>its somehoe 1.2
21:21<rortom>to euro :\
21:21<benjamingoodger>it was 1.11 earlier in the week...
21:21<rortom>i remember when it was like 1.5 or so :/
21:21<benjamingoodger>I remember when it was 1.8
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21:21<benjamingoodger>we don't build anything to speak of, we don't grow anything that we export to other countries
21:22<@Rubidium>it's 2 and has been for years!
21:22<benjamingoodger>Rubidium: sterling is worth €1.18
21:22<benjamingoodger>or $1.50-ish
21:22<benjamingoodger>what has been 2 for years?
21:23<@Rubidium>not to forget that 1 dollar = 1 euro
21:23<SmatZ>it was when Euro started...
21:23<benjamingoodger>actually, the dollar is worth 78 eurocents
21:24<SmatZ>then Euro went down
21:24<SmatZ>but later dollar went even more down
21:24<SmatZ>so now Euro is worth more than dollar
21:24<benjamingoodger>actually, it is more appropriate to say that the euro went down, and then went up
21:24<benjamingoodger>and then the dollar drove off a cliff
21:24<SmatZ>not really
21:25<benjamingoodger>Rubidium: what are you claiming is worth 2 of something else?
21:26<SmatZ>EUR / CZK was ~22 at best.. now it is 25... USD / CZK was ~15, now it is ~20
21:27<benjamingoodger>for me, a strong dollar is a good thing, I'm selling books in the US
21:28<rortom>for me was well
21:28<rortom>i get adsense income :\
21:28<SmatZ>benjamingoodger: if you live in US, then yes :)
21:28<benjamingoodger>SmatZ: a strong dollar means that pounds are cheap to buy with my dollars
21:29<benjamingoodger>since I want to end up with as many pounds as possible, this is a good thing
21:29<rortom>same thought that i follow ;)
21:30<SmatZ>but if you want to export your books, given the price for them is 10USD, they cost now ... 6? GBP... but when USD was worth loss, it cost only 4? GBP in UK
21:30<SmatZ>so strong dollar makes it header to export (but simpler to import)
21:30<SmatZ>for you (if you live in US)
21:31<benjamingoodger>no, they're printed in tennessee
21:31<SmatZ>*loss -> less
21:31<benjamingoodger>the only importing I'm doing is importing the dollars earned from the books and selling them for pounds
21:31<SmatZ>yeah, if you make and sell the books in US, the higher price of imported books helps you
21:32<benjamingoodger>well, yes
21:33<benjamingoodger>if I'm competing against booksellers who can produce the book for $7 I don't want to be printing it in the UK for £4.50 and then shipping it to the US
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21:34<SmatZ>sorry I am too tired to talk or think, good night :)
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21:52<@Belugas>toum te doum tsoin tsoi
21:53<benjamingoodger>tum ti tum indeed
21:53<benjamingoodger>ah, it's far too late
21:53<benjamingoodger>good night
21:58<@Belugas>nini dear tom
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22:40<LadyHawk>hello peeps, i had a quick question
22:40<LadyHawk>hmm lots of peeps have gone
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22:42<LadyHawk>i was wondering if the nightly fixed the passenger subsidy bug
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22:50<@Belugas>which bug?
22:54*Belugas goes back to sleep
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---Logclosed Sat Nov 29 00:00:36 2008