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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-29

---Logopened Sat Nov 29 00:00:36 2008
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03:57<globester`>in 0.6.3 it's intended that you can't scroll top-bottom normally?
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07:25<Splex>im trying to build a deb package for ubuntu intrepid by following the wiki but it keeps failing: cc -Wl,-Bsymbolic-functions distclean.o -o distclean \cc: distclean.o: No such file or directory
07:31<Alberth>Splex: my trunk source checkout does not contain any *dist* file
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07:36<Alberth>Splex: distclean is usually a Makefile target.
07:37<SmatZ>Splex: what wiki? openttd wiki?
07:40<SmatZ>I don't know, I don't use debian
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07:43<Splex>actually, i just tried it again and it shows: "[SRC] No such source-file: distclean.[c|cpp|mm|rc]" when it enters the objs/release dir
07:52<Alberth>Splex: you have to find out why it wants to build a distclean target. What Makefile are you running (and with what target)? Also, giving make a few debug options (--debug=b) may be helpful (there are also other debug flags, see make(1) for details.
07:56<@petern>alternatively, why do you need to make distclean?
07:56<@petern>or is that part of the deb script... heh
07:56<Splex>Alberth: i followed the wiki for building a deb package. I did 'mv os/debian .' and then ran './configure' and 'make' and then 'dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us'
07:56<Splex>petern: it is part of the script
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08:01<Alberth>Splex: hmm, do you know what this "step 3" they talk about? In the final section of the wiki, they don't say anything about running configure and/or make btw.
08:02<Splex>if going by the outline of the 'contents'
08:02<Splex>at the top of the page, then i suppose they mean it replaces 'compiling and running'
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08:03<Splex>it appears the ./configure and make i did was unnecessary... but it should not affect the package building as it should be doing a clean anyways
08:06<Alberth>file a bug report
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08:42<Splex>strange... the build process works fine when run on a fresh checkout... but only once.. if run twice it has the same failure
08:51<Alberth>Splex: that's probably why it has never been caught until now
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09:08<LadyHawk>hello people, could someone tell me if the nightly build fixes the passenger subsidy bug? (you won't get the subsidy if another passenger service is already in one of the towns stated in the subsidy)
09:09<LadyHawk>i haven't had this once, but am getting it basically every time now in my game, as i have loads of passenger trains going from town to town
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09:09<LadyHawk>sorry Belugas, i went to sleep
09:10<mrfrenzy>LadyHawk: isn't the subsidy for the first established service only?
09:10<LadyHawk>it never used to be
09:11<mrfrenzy>a few years ago it was atleast
09:12<LadyHawk>i've got a long ottd history, i'm not sure when this started
09:12<LadyHawk>but i remember having 3-4 different services in 1 town and always got the new subsidy offers
09:12<LadyHawk>it could well have been more than a few years
09:13<LadyHawk>it's just the first time i noticed it not giving me the subsidies
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09:14<LadyHawk>1 last thing i could try to do is stop all the other trains while the new train is making its run
09:15<fjb>Quak frosch123
09:15<LadyHawk>but if the subsidies are only supposed to work for the 1st service, why does it OFFER the new ones?
09:15<LadyHawk>it just gives me the idea that something's not working right
09:17<frosch123>moin fjb
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09:26<Alberth>LadyHawk: try to make a save game demonstrating the problem, and post it so we can have a look and discuss it.
09:28<Alberth>LadyHawk: did you have a look in FlySpray, eg FS#265?
09:29<LadyHawk>i'm unfamiliar with that
09:31<LadyHawk>i'll load my saved game, set up a new subsidy train and save it... then i'll let it continue to see if i'll get it or not
09:31<LadyHawk>if not, i'll post it
09:31<LadyHawk>where would i post it though, i remember a bug forum at some point but things are so much different here since last time i came here
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09:33<Alberth>LadyHawk: OpenTTD problems forum may be appropiate
09:33<LadyHawk>thanks a lot
09:34<LadyHawk>that's the one
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09:34<Alberth>LadyHawk: and if you remove the last "/task/265" you get all others too :)
09:35<LadyHawk>Reason for closing: Not a bug
09:35<LadyHawk>Additional comments about closing: You have to connect the city centers, not the suburbs
09:35<LadyHawk>i get subsidies if it's 1st service no matter if it's the outskirts of a town or the center
09:35<LadyHawk>2nd service from center i dont get
09:35<LadyHawk>i think... i'll see if i can double check that too
09:36<Alberth>and the 2nd is slightly futher away?
09:36<LadyHawk>once a town grows you cant get to the center anymore
09:36<LadyHawk>unless you hack your way through the town
09:37<Alberth>the forums have a few discussions about that problem too, and even a patch with a fix
09:48<LadyHawk>i'd rather have the dev team fix the problem, i don't really like having to go around and get different stuff
09:48<LadyHawk>thats why i asked bout the nightly
09:48<LadyHawk>but i'm glad this bug is known
09:48<LadyHawk>ty for your info :)
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09:57<Alberth>Bug 265 is because of building not close enough to the town center. I doubt that passengers have anything to do with it. You should verify whether you can re-produce your problem while building close to the town center, and if so, make a save-game that demonstrates the problem. Then we can verify the problem, and devs have a case that actually fails (which is needed for debugging and for checking that their fix actually works)
09:57<Patrick>otherwise it's a pebcak
09:59<@Rubidium>is that going to be a duplicate of FS#1075?
10:00<@Rubidium>or FS#1122 for that matter
10:03<Splex>Alberth: I have reported the bug
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10:05<Splex>Alberth: I mean, the debian package one
10:06<Alberth>Rubidium: LadyHawk has a problem about not getting passenger subsidies
10:06<Alberth>Splex: I understood that, thanks (although I don't use debian packages)
10:08<LadyHawk>[29/11][14:58:58] <Alberth> Bug 265 is because of building not close enough to the town center. I doubt that passengers have anything to do with it. You should verify whether you can re-produce your problem while building close to the town center, and if so, make a save-game that demonstrates the problem.
10:08<LadyHawk>do station names have anything to do with that?
10:08<LadyHawk>or just the positioning
10:08<@Rubidium>no, but the location of them does
10:08<@Rubidium>as that's the 'location' of the station
10:09<LadyHawk>is there a way to calculate which part of the town is city center?
10:09<LadyHawk>i assume it grows as the town grows
10:09<LadyHawk>or is it only the part with the streetlights/trees
10:09<@Rubidium>it's 9 tiles from town center
10:09<LadyHawk>doesnt grow with the town? that's gonna be hard
10:09<@Rubidium>and the town center is where the name is
10:10<LadyHawk>and the station only has to be inside that area with 1 tile to catch it?
10:10<Patrick>subsidies I guess were designed for the start game
10:10<Patrick>as a little boost
10:10<@Rubidium>if that's the tile with the station "flag", then yes, otherwise no
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10:10<Alberth>LadyHawk: the station name sign has to in it
10:10<LadyHawk>so the larger the station, the harder it is to get the sign inside it
10:11<LadyHawk>cuz the station sign seems to be usually at the very wrong end of the station
10:11*Rubidium feels like he's reiterating what's already in the closed bugreports and the numerous forum threads
10:11<LadyHawk>the very other end is in the center
10:11<LadyHawk>but the station sign is at the wrong end
10:12<LadyHawk>i'll try to move my station and see if i can confirm i'mg etting the subsidy
10:12<Alberth>LadyHawk: build a 1x1 station first, then build a larger station over it/against it
10:12<LadyHawk>ya thats what i just did lol
10:13<LadyHawk>that bit is 7 tiles away from the city name so it should catch in this theory
10:13<LadyHawk>i've got it
10:13<Alberth>Rubidium: it just demonstrates the 9 tile limit is not very intiuitive
10:14<LadyHawk>and there is a 2nd service also going from that town
10:14<LadyHawk>thanks for clearing this up for me
10:14<LadyHawk>i appriciate it a lot :)
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10:14<@Rubidium>Alberth: a lot isn't very intuitive, but what else do you want?
10:14<@Rubidium>if station has townname accept the subsidy?
10:15<LadyHawk>thats what it *used* to be, but like i said before, i've got a very long ttd history, i dont know if that's how it first used to be with openttd or if it was changed later on
10:16<LadyHawk>that's why it confused me
10:17<LadyHawk>first ttd i played was the very original :)
10:17<LadyHawk>then the expansion with the alternate view
10:17<Alberth>Rubidium: if it within town-radius eg? (
10:17<@Rubidium>LadyHawk: well... in OpenTTD it has always been as it is now
10:17<LadyHawk>ok i'll remember the 9 tiles thing
10:18<LadyHawk>i musta gotten lucky the previous times i was building subsidy only
10:18<@Rubidium>Alberth: town radius extends beyond where the town actually is
10:18<Alberth>Very wide outside the town no doubt :(
10:19<Alberth>Maybe we should add a visual feed-back of 'this is a great place to build if you want a subsidy'
10:21<Alberth>Rubidium: is the 9 tile limit used for other things? otherwise we could increase the limit as the town grows in some way
10:21<@Rubidium>oh... you thought it was for the town A to town B subsidy... I just shown the good spot for industry D from the industry C to industry D subsidy
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10:22<@Rubidium>don't exactly know
10:23<Patrick>mm, industrial subsidies
10:23<Patrick>I forgot about them
10:28<LadyHawk>i'm not sure what you guys are discussing at the moment but if the subsidy range for passengers from town A to B is increased as the town grows, it wont have an affect on industrial subsidies as the station needs to be in range of the industry
10:28<LadyHawk>sorry if i completely got it wrong :p
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10:29<@Rubidium>it's about the feedback: "if you build a station here you are eligible for a subsidy" (which can be a different subsidy than the subsidy you want to actually take)
10:30<Alberth>LadyHawk: these problems come up too often, so we wonder how to make the game respond better.
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10:32<Alberth>LadyHawk: and as usual, alternatives are shot down very quickly, as they break in some way (which basically means the alternative is not good enough)
10:33<LadyHawk>would it be possible to do like.. if a passenger subsidy comes up, and someone tries to place a station in the town with the subsidy, to make the station range go GREEN instead of blue if it's in range?
10:33<LadyHawk>(i dont know how this is coded so dont know if this would be possible to do)
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10:34<Alberth>LadyHawk: I just proposed that, but it doesn't work, since the game doesn't know whether you want the passenger subsidy, or the industrial one just 2 tiles out of range
10:35<Alberth>LadyHawk: so 'green' would mean 'you are in range of at least one subsidy, not necessarily the one you want :(
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10:36<LadyHawk>but that would give the player some idea of where they can place a station for a subsidy.. worst case scenario if theres an industrial subsidy right next to the town, they can still see the green circle around it as they move the station around the green grid
10:36<LadyHawk>yes it won't be perfect, but perfect for what i understand in this matter is impossible
10:37<LadyHawk>it'll be the player that still has to look around to see if it catches the subsidy they want
10:37<LadyHawk>but it's the same now, and now players don't even have an idea of where they can and cant place the station
10:38<Alberth>LadyHawk: devs don't like implementing partial solutions, as the problem will continue to come back (like it does now).
10:40<Alberth>Rubidium: what if we add some indication of subsidies that would be in reach, just like the list of accepted/produced cargo
10:41<LadyHawk>hmm that could be nice as well
10:41<LadyHawk>in that same list 'subsidy: <cargotype>
10:45<LadyHawk>that would give players more of an indication than a grid range would
10:45<Alberth>yeah, I was wondering how to represent a subidy, but the cargo type would be enough indeed.
10:46<Aali>not really
10:47<Aali>because then it will look like you get a subsidy just for transporting that cargo type
10:48<Aali>(its enough if you know all about subsidies, but for new players its confusing)
10:48<Alberth>Right 'subsidy:' is the wrong word.
10:49<LadyHawk>what exactly do you mean Aali, new players would see that list and think they can *only* transport the cargo type specified to get the subsidy, and not the others available?
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10:50<Aali>no, they'll think they can just take that cargo anywhere and get extra cash
10:51<Alberth>or even, that they will get the subsidy just by building there
10:52<LadyHawk>don't suppose you can make it clickable to open the subsidy list window
10:52<LadyHawk>if that would even change anything
10:52<Alberth>Maybe we should add something to the subsidy window and not the build window ?
10:53<Aali>you could always make it a toggleable "advanced" setting
10:53<Alberth>LadyHawk: clickable can be made, but I don't think it will help, as users don't consider clicking on it (in the same way that right-click could have an explanation, that nobody would read)
10:53<Aali>so people who already know about subsidies can turn it on
10:54<Alberth>that would kind of defeat a large part of the purpose wouldn't it?
10:55<Alberth>In fact we should be able to high-light existing stations as well imho
10:55<Aali>only if its not obvious what the setting does
10:55<Patrick>or we could just cut subsidies from the game by default
10:55<Patrick>oh, here's a question
10:55<Patrick>plane speed factor
10:55<Patrick>does it actually affect how much money they make
10:56<Patrick>or is the passenger delivery payment calculation offset
10:56<Alberth>yes, faster transport makes more money
10:56<Alberth>(less aging while in transit)
10:56<LadyHawk>what would you add to the subsidy window though, like '(in range)' when they hover the station around to place it? sounds hard to code to a coding newbie :p
10:56<Patrick>no wonder I was making 4 million a year with 3 planes
10:56<Antdovu>and you can obviously transport more with faster planes
10:56<Patrick>LadyHawk: and it sounds counterintuitive
10:57<Patrick>tbh the only game I play now is left 4 dead
10:57<LadyHawk>i keep coming back to ottd, then i get bored and leave it, and come back to it later
10:58<Alberth>LadyHawk: start coding instead of playing
10:58<LadyHawk>i'd be more of a burden than a help :p
10:58<Alberth>update docs, wiki
10:59<LadyHawk>yeah but by doing that i'd need to keep at it even when i get bored of ottd again
10:59<LadyHawk>cuz i'd feel i can't leave it alone
11:00<Alberth>If we select a subsidy, could we then display the range or so?
11:00<LadyHawk>select subsidy in the subsidy window, then show a range grid?
11:01<Alberth>LadyHawk: you cannot, docs and wiki age by themselves :P
11:01<Alberth>yeah, then you'd also be able to see whether existing stations are in range
11:02<LadyHawk>and the player wouldn't get confused about the fact they can just take the offered subsidy *anywhere* cuz they'd have to go through the subsidy window which clearly states *where* to take the cargo
11:02<Alberth>I'd hope so
11:03<LadyHawk>one thing to keep in mind with that then though is when you click on a subsidy in the subsidy window now, it skips the screen between the pickup/delivery places
11:03<LadyHawk>wouldn't that enable/disable the grid?
11:04<LadyHawk>unless it's a button or something in that window behind the text, 'show range grid'
11:04<Alberth>hmm, you got a point. (and it makes clear how often I use subsidies :) )
11:05<Alberth>I wouldn't mind having the grid enabled all the time (as long as the window is open). We'd probably need that toggle too though, nice idea.
11:05<LadyHawk>+ that grid would have to be ON TOP of the existing station range grid
11:06<LadyHawk>or they'd still not be able to see it
11:06<Alberth>I was thinking about colouring the station itself.
11:07<LadyHawk>that would solve that problem
11:07<Alberth>(ie a green station means 'this one can be used')
11:07<LadyHawk>sounds good
11:07<Antdovu>Firefox had a problem and crashed. We'll try to restore your tabs and windows when it restarts.
11:07<Antdovu>SecondsSinceLastCrash: 336330
11:08<LadyHawk>but would players get confused to stick the station range grid in the subsidy range grid and think 'cool i'm in range now'
11:08<Antdovu>does this happen to anyone else?
11:08<LadyHawk>unless you force disable station range grid when a subsidy toggle is enabled?
11:09<Alberth>LadyHawk: not sure I understand the confusion
11:10<Alberth>Antdovu: no way, I have never succeeded running a browser that long
11:11<LadyHawk>well say you enable the subsidy range grid with a button in the subsidy
11:11<LadyHawk>then the player turns on the station range grid on the station placement
11:11<LadyHawk>and goes with the station range grid 1 tile INTO the subsidy range grid
11:11<LadyHawk>just like you do when you place a station near an industry
11:12<LadyHawk>they might think 'hurray, i'm in range' and place it, not knowing it's the green station colour they should be looking for
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that's not even 4 days
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11:12<Eddi|zuHause>well, of course that is an eternity when using windows :p
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11:13<LadyHawk>unless you shorten the subsidy range grid to use the station grid... but of course the station range grid is smaller/bigger depending on which type of station you try to place
11:13<Alberth>so no green grid, but just 'green' stations then?
11:13<Antdovu>I'm pretty sure that time includes the browser being closed
11:14<LadyHawk>that might be better Alberth yeah
11:14<Patrick>or just change the model from center of town to anywhere
11:14<Antdovu>But I get that kind of messages from firefox way too often
11:14<LadyHawk>would remove the possible station range grid confusion
11:14<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: indeed, I missed a factor 60. At home, it makes no difference, the machine goes down every day, at work, it would then probably, as the machine goes down something like twice a year
11:15<Alberth>Antdovu: don't vist new sites :)
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, i don't use firefox...
11:15<Alberth>Patrick: what do you mean "model"?
11:16<Antdovu>I would use another browser if it had similar extensions to the ones I use
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11:18<Eddi|zuHause>Patrick: part of the problem is that it is O(n^2) to search for the town center, so increasing that might be problematic (in a similar way to increasing station spread)
11:19<Alberth>Patrick: ah, you mean, let go of the 'town center' limitation.
11:19<Antdovu>what is it that actually makes station spread a speed issue?
11:20<Alberth>more tiles to search, although I don't know whether it is really a problem
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11:21<Eddi|zuHause>exactly what i said, an O(n^2) search through the catchment area. each time any cargo is produced or delivered, acceptance is recalculated or otherwise stuff changes
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11:24<Antdovu>for each station tile
11:24<Antdovu> check whether it can catch any cargo?
11:24<Patrick>Eddi|zuHause: really?
11:24<Alberth>Antdovu: for each tile in the catchment area
11:24<Patrick>for subsidisation, it's just calculated difference between signpost coordinates
11:25<Patrick>wouldn't it be more sensible to have the acceptance as a property of the station
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>no, the other way round: for each industry, for each distance(tile, industry)<station spread: has a station?
11:25<Patrick>and update stations whenever a building or industry changes
11:25<Patrick>it would probably be a lot of work
11:26<Patrick>so yeah
11:26<Alberth>and take mucho memory
11:26<Antdovu>depending on how much processing power it takes, more memory use might be justified
11:27<Antdovu>openttd barely uses any memory
11:27<Patrick>no, only the number of cargo types * number of stations extra bits
11:29<Alberth>+cargo dest
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12:29<Fantasya>good day
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r14642 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-29 18:44:42
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 163 fixed, 30 changed by knovak (193)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 1 fixed, 1 changed by miris2009 (2)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: esperanto - 41 fixed by Athaba (41)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 4 fixed, 2 changed by Athaba (6)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 20 fixed by vesnikos (20)
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13:45<Eddi|zuHause>same person changing two languages?
13:46<rortom>damn hot pot :\
13:46*rortom burned himself
13:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: I doubt there are any esperanto natives, who do not speak another language natively
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16:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14643 /trunk/src/group_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Invalidate autoreplace window when toggling 'replace protection'.
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17:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14644 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: --with-direct-music handling could fail
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 30 00:00:38 2008