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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-12-02

---Logopened Tue Dec 02 00:00:41 2008
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04:19<planetmaker>morning
04:24<DASPRiD>make me a planet
04:24<DASPRiD>/ bacon
04:24<DASPRiD>morning :)
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07:32<@Celestar>\o
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07:34<@petern>o/
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07:41<Ammler>\o/
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07:43<@Celestar>heh. Michelin reinvented the wheel .. again
07:44<@Celestar>made one including suspension, brake and an electric engine with 40HP sustained power (80HP peak power)
07:50<mrfrenzy>that is probably the future for small vehicles
07:52<@petern>that's not exactly new is it?
07:52<@petern>trains, for example...
07:53<mrfrenzy>nope, there has been talks about it for years
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07:56<@petern>"active wheel" heh
07:56<@Celestar>petern: trains don't have their motors in the wheels
07:57<@Celestar>petern: yeah, that's the one
07:57<@petern>true
07:57<@petern>odd though
07:57<@petern>the wheel is no more active than a normal wheel
07:57<@Celestar>it has a motor in it :P
07:57<@petern>just the motor and gubbins is small enough to fit inside
07:57<@Celestar>it could drive itself :P
07:57<@Celestar>at least downhill
07:58<@petern>:p
07:58<@petern>i mean, i assume you don't have to remove the whole lot just to replace the tyre...
07:58<@Celestar>petern: this is the main question I'm asking myself as well
07:58<@petern>otoh
07:59<@Celestar>otoh I'm having my wheels replaced and not do it myself
07:59<@petern>it would keep efficiency up, if you had to replace/recycle the motor at the same time
07:59<@Celestar>petern: I don't want to replace my motors every 6 months :P
08:00<@petern>hmm, does it support steering...
08:00<@Celestar>lol I hope so
08:01<@Celestar>there's no fundamental reason why you shouldn't be able to turn the whole assembly
08:02<@Celestar>petern: but since there's a prototype with these things driving it might work :P
08:02<@petern>hmm, so 160HP in a 4 wheel drive combination...
08:02<@petern>that's a lot
08:03<@Celestar>petern: 160HP is decent for a normal 4 person car. but it's 320HP peak output, which is not bad at all
08:03<@petern>well
08:03<@Celestar>you could have 320HP with 640HP peak with the dual-wheel layout :P
08:03<@petern>80HP is perfectly fine for a smaller (but still 4 person) car
08:03<@Celestar>yeah
08:03<@Celestar>electric HP anyway
08:04<@Celestar>much higher torque
08:04<@petern>torques, as mr clarkson likes to say
08:04<@Celestar>:P
08:04<@Celestar>heh.
08:04<@petern>then you just need a decent power source
08:04<@petern>i vote for dodgems style catenary!
08:04<@Celestar>the prototype has a CO2 emmision of 15g/km in France, and about 75g/km in Germany.
08:05<@petern>the emmissions change?
08:05<@Celestar>yes.
08:05<@petern>:o
08:05<@Celestar>depending on how the specific country produces the electrical energy
08:05<@Celestar>(it has a LiIon pack worth 400km of range)
08:05<@petern>hmm, scalextric pickups...
08:06<@petern>drive down a groove in the road
08:06<@petern>hmm, i wonder how things like ABS and TC translate
08:07<@Celestar>petern: to what language?
08:07<@petern>huh?
08:07<@Celestar>or do you mean into that active wheel?
08:07<@petern>i meant that yes
08:08<@Celestar>easily
08:08<@Celestar>ABS and TC has been used in electric engines for decades.
08:10<@Celestar>hm the BR103 (1970) and traction control
08:10<@Celestar>but it was per-bogie
08:10<@Celestar>the BR101 has it per axle
08:11<@Celestar>so if we did it in the 70s for a 300kN system, we can do it for a measly 40HP engine in 2008 :P
08:15-!-Sacro [~sacro@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
08:15*Celestar wonders when Germany will accept that fact that we MUST build nuclears should we want a significant reduction of CO2 emissions.
08:18<@petern>does it care?
08:19<@Celestar>well ... they say they do
08:19<@petern>when well the green loonies accept that... heh
08:19<@Celestar>apparently they do.
08:19<@Celestar>The Greens have zero idea about protecting the environment, at least in Germany.
08:19<@Celestar>They lack the scientific and technical expertise.
08:20<@Celestar>but they can state clearly what they don't want
08:21<Sacro>hrm indeed
08:21<Sacro>@seen Bjarnli
08:21<@DorpsGek>Sacro: I have not seen Bjarnli.
08:21<@Celestar>CRITICAL - load average: 24.38, 17.05, 10.03
08:21<@Celestar>:S
08:27<gynter>thats a lot of load...
08:27<@Celestar>I/O load mostly
08:28<@Celestar>because CPU util is around 5%
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08:42<planetmaker>http://www.lbst.de/publications/studies__e/2006/EWG-paper_1-06_Uranium-Resources-Nuclear-Energy_03DEC2006.pdf <-- Celestar: doesn't make uranium industry seem a long-term profitable one either... though the report may be a bit biased.
08:42<@Celestar>planetmaker: it's not long-term. it's until a working Tokamak or better, Stellerator
08:43<planetmaker>hehe. Which will always be done in 50 years :P
08:43<@Celestar>no one sais 50 years nowadays
08:43<planetmaker>well... no?
08:43<@Celestar>30 years till a working economical reactor
08:44<@Celestar>20 years to an energy-producing power plant
08:44<planetmaker>hmm... in the optimistic forecasts, yes.
08:45<@Celestar>optimistic means that the idiots called politicians don't cut budgets further
08:45<planetmaker>Currently they still run a huge deficit and have due to plasma deterioration huge downtimes.
08:45<@Celestar>both these problems are to be solved with ITER
08:46<planetmaker>to be. That's the plan.
08:46<planetmaker>But there are still fundamental problems with how to remove the fusion "ashes" and so on.
08:46<planetmaker>and keep containment of an evolving plasma.
08:46<@Celestar>hence it would be prudent to increase research spending
08:47<planetmaker>no doubt about that. But on the time line irrespective of funding.
08:47<planetmaker>Talking to those guys in person they don't quote 20 years or 30.
08:47<@Celestar>and get Wendelstein 7-X finished a bit faster.
08:47<planetmaker>Though certainly it'd be nice to be true.
08:47<@Celestar>all the coils are there and it'll still take 6 years to complete
08:48<planetmaker>Wendelstein 7-X is not even designed to have a positive energy gain.
08:48<@Celestar>no
08:48<@Celestar>it's not
08:48<planetmaker>it's still all about containment.
08:48<@petern>hmm, fusin reactor
08:48<@petern>+o
08:49<planetmaker>@op fusin ;)
08:50<@Celestar>planetmaker: I still wonder whether our approach is wrong. Maybe we should start building a fusion engine first
08:50<planetmaker>newgrf proposal: an industry for OTTD, starting in 2050: hydrogen plan, delivers to fusion power plant. Substitutes coal :P
08:50<@Celestar>yay \o/
08:50<planetmaker>Celestar: what do you mean with fusion engine? Spacecraft?
08:51<@Celestar>aye
08:51<planetmaker>Or fuelcells?
08:51<Ammler>you mean there will be still coal power in 40 years?
08:51<planetmaker>which rather is no fusion... err...
08:51<@Celestar>planetmaker: fusion.
08:51<@Celestar>plasma fusion
08:51<planetmaker>Celestar: but there the principle problem is the same as in a power plant... where do you see the principle difference?
08:52<planetmaker>Ammler: sure... peak coal is still long time of the screens.
08:52<planetmaker>peak oils currently is. peak uranium probably soon will be (<50 years)
08:52<@Celestar>planetmaker: problem with confinement and ashes are reduced
08:53<Aali>didn't someone somewhere at some point in time propose we make a spaceship that shoots out nukes behind it to accelerate?
08:53<planetmaker>Celestar: not much. Only the confinement will ensure you to actually _have_ fusion.
08:53<Aali>thats a "fusion" engine alright :)
08:53<planetmaker>Aali: that's not fusion :)
08:53<Aali>sure it is
08:53<@Celestar>Aali: that was the NASA, and it IS a viable propulion system.
08:53<Aali>only the fusion isn't happening inside the engine
08:53<Aali>ah, yes
08:54<@Celestar>called project Orion.
08:54*petern grumbles about microsoft's mail clients not supports TLS for imap
08:54<@petern>*supporting
08:54<@Celestar>it's a just a propulsion system with little political backing
08:54<@Celestar>(=
08:54<Aali>but you can't use nukes in space, right?
08:54<Aali>(by law)
08:54<@Celestar>Aali: the Test-Ban-Treaty will end some daya
08:55<@Celestar>but I guess we'll have more advanced prop systems then
08:55<planetmaker>not sure whether a test ban treaty expiration is really desirable...
08:56<@Celestar>not sure either.
08:57<@Celestar>not sure whether the chinese have signed it in the first place for exxample ..
09:00<@Celestar>not sure whether the NSWR falls under the test ban treaty too
09:04<planetmaker>nswr? what's that?
09:05<@Celestar>nuclear salt water rocket.
09:05<@Celestar>a concept by Bob Zubrin.
09:05<planetmaker>uh... never heard that either...
09:05<@Celestar>basic idea is to make a solution of Uranium bromide.
09:05<@Celestar>and inject that into a nozzle with critical mass/shape
09:06<planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Nuclear-Test-Ban_Treaty <-- Chinese seem to have signed the test ban treaty
09:06<@Celestar>good.
09:06<planetmaker>as any "official" nuclear power.
09:06<planetmaker>so... neither India nor Pakistan.
09:07<planetmaker>nor Israel nor North Korea...
09:07<planetmaker>That UBr-idea sounds "interesting"...
09:07<@Celestar>AFAIK, this treaty doesn't cover space, does it?
09:07<@Celestar>wasn't there a separate one?
09:08<@Celestar>might be wrong however
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09:13<planetmaker>there was. But it got superseeded afaik. It's in the wiki entry.
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09:13<planetmaker>that was covered even by the first one, the partial test ban treaty 1963
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09:19<@Celestar>planetmaker: so basically the CTBT is not really in effect, is it?
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09:20<planetmaker>obviously by law: it isn't.
09:21<@Celestar>hm ..
09:21<@Celestar>a Nuclear Thermal rocket is not covered by the treaty
09:21<@Celestar>neither are space-nuclear reactors of course
09:23<@Celestar>basically everything that doesn't go "Boom"
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09:36<planetmaker>well. It's not a treaty to abolish nuclear technology. It's a treaty to slow down nuclear weapons research... well... the obvious one ;)
09:38<@Belugas>any researches been done on flowers and love?
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09:54<planetmaker>Belugas: I heard quite some was done in woodstock...
09:57<@Belugas>hehe
09:57<@Belugas>Make Looooove! Not WAR!!!
09:59<@Celestar>hm.
09:59<@Celestar>Window's market share has dropped below 90% in November 2008, down almost 3 PP from November 2007 and 7 PP from November 2004.
10:00*Belugas removes a tear from his left eye
10:01<@petern>awww
10:02<@Belugas>ho... sorry petern. Was not aware you were so close :)
10:02<@Belugas>that should teach me not to drop my tears every where :D
10:06<@petern>don't let them know!
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10:56<Eddi|zuHause>how was that again? inflicting a thermonuclear explosion is punishable by 3 years of prison or something?
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>5 years even
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/328.html
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>point (2) 3.
10:58<@Rubidium>that's not much of a sentence for suicide bombers :(
10:59<benjamingoodger>...
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, of course you are punishable for the multiple murder as well ;)
10:59<benjamingoodger>I don't think sentencing suicide bombers is necessary
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>3 years if the action was "fahrlässig" (i.e. without intention)
11:03<@Rubidium>it still sounds a bit strange to me; if you accidentally set off such an explosion you're likely nearby and thus dead
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>well... possibly you just were not instructed what that red button was for...
11:04<@Rubidium>or it was an nuclear power plant that went sky high
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11:18<frosch123>poop planetmaker, alone against 10 noobs :p
11:18<frosch123>*poor
11:21<murr4y>poop planetmaker!
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11:27<fjb>frosch123: Talking about the german forum?
11:28<frosch123>can you name another place, where you can encounter 10 noobs at once
11:28<@Rubidium>#openttd
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11:29<frosch123>ok, maybe "noob" was not appropiate
11:29<fjb>Especially noobs that know everything even better than everybody else....
11:30<fjb>Rubidium: Better don't look at the german forum...
11:30<@Rubidium>fjb: already did
11:30<fjb>I stopped writing there.
11:30<fjb>Poor Rubidium...
11:30<HerzogDeXtEr>anyone who uses that word for beginners should be kicked out of the channel :D
11:31<@Rubidium>HerzogDeXtEr: better write n006, right?
11:31<HerzogDeXtEr>:D
11:31<HerzogDeXtEr>or n4b ;)
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11:32<frosch123>HerzogDeXtEr: I guess it holds "BusyBeaver(postcount of planetmaker) < sum of postcounts of the 10 n006z"
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11:35<HerzogDeXtEr>now he can buy himself a gum
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11:37<@Belugas>newbees ? clueless? wanabe-admins?
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause>lmao @ the forum thread :p
12:01<+glx>Belugas: I'd say a*******
12:01<@Belugas>:)
12:02<@Belugas>andouilles aussi, mais la, on a besoin de deux lettres de plus :)
12:02<+glx>ou p'tits cons
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12:10<Eddi|zuHause>my french is a little rusty, did you just say "you just need to add two letters there?" [i.e. 'a**']?
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what "andouilles" could mean
12:11<@petern>Andouille (French: [ɑ̃duj], American English: [ɑnˡdu:ɪ] (pronounced ahn-DWEE) is defined [1] as "a coarse-grained smoked meat made using pork, chitterlings, pepper, onions, wine, and seasonings. Andouille is French in origin, and was brought to Louisiana by French or German immigrants. Today the sausage is most often associated with Cajun cooking." [1]
12:11<@petern>:D
12:11<@petern>looks horrible, mind you
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>"(pronounced ahn-DWEE)" <- i could never pronounce that...
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>and based on context, i
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>'d have expected it to be an insult of some kind...
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12:16<@Belugas>depends :) andouilles can be a sausage, but it can be a pejorative name too, like little stupid or something alike :)
12:17<@Belugas>headless jerk or else ;)
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>"anduille" - "Hornochse, Dämlack, Rindvieh, Dummkopf, Armleuchter" <- that's more like it :p
12:17<frosch123>"arme wurst" also works in german
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i'd not have the same association with that...
12:23<ccfreak2k>You know, like when I go to do some lahn-DWEE in my house.
12:27<@Belugas>frosch123, are you aware of a delphi symbol that i can check for debug vs release?
12:28<@Belugas>like the {$IFNDEF VER140} and so on
12:29<frosch123>no, I could also only look up the help page :)
12:30<+glx>isn't there "DEBUG" ?
12:35<@Belugas>i doubt, glx. but it's worth a try :)
12:35<@Belugas>frosch123, i did a thorough read, but it seems very well hidden if it's there
12:36<@Belugas>mmh... by the way... i'm starting to wonder if the transfers orders should not be made available by a switch in the settings
12:37<@Belugas>and once checked, a BIG RED MESSAGE telling waht you should expect regarding payments...
12:37<@Belugas>there is so many posts about that feature :S
12:37<@Belugas>people are REALLY boring
12:37-!-mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
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12:42<ccfreak2k>The one where vehicles doing transfer get "virtual cash" so they don't show up as negative income?
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>that, and the one where the vehicles get too much virtual cash, so that the last (slow) vehicle does show up as negative income
12:45<@Belugas>"how come i've got no income"
12:45<@Belugas>arrrrrgh
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>and last but not least, the one where they enable transfer for all stations, so nothing ever gets delivered
12:45<@Belugas>ANDOUILLES!!!
12:45<@Belugas>if the system is too complicated for you, go back to tic-tac-towe
12:45<@Belugas>-w
12:46<@Rubidium>Belugas: transfers are more hidden in the new order gui
12:48<@Belugas>true.
12:49<@Belugas>i was just reacting to the number of "problems" related to that feature.
12:49<@Belugas>it is irritating
12:50<dihedral>a lost train remains a lost train until it's no longer lost, but how should a lost train know it's not lost anymore if the lost train does not know where it is?
12:52<@Belugas>you lost me
12:54<@Belugas>thankfully, Dalestan is still making me laugh : "And the apo'strophe doe's not mean "Look out! Here come's an 'S'!""
12:54<@Belugas>love it :D
12:55<@Rubidium>Beluga's it's Dale'stan!
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12:55<@Belugas>hehehe
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12:57<dihedral>i prefer switching the D and the St
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13:02<@Belugas>wooo... dihedral, i think you should hate Dalestan. Switching letters, you can come up with "El D Satan"
13:03<frosch123>Belugas: Well I guess you can define your own DEBUG symbol, and then disable or enable debug build depending on its definition :)
13:03<@Belugas>right
13:03<@Belugas>i guess i can
13:03<@Belugas>just that it means thinking of setting the switch on/off depending of the desired target
13:04<@Belugas>in an environment where you are not the only one to build releases, it might be prone to human errors
13:04<frosch123>sure, when you are not alone you are doomed
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13:24<@Belugas>got it
13:24<@Belugas>{$IFOPT R+}
13:25<@Belugas>but rather $D $L $Y
13:25<@Belugas>that' our regular set of debugging infos include
13:25-!-helb [~helb@84.244.90.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:25<@Belugas>so "Debug Information, Local Symbols and Reference Info/Definitions",
13:26<@Belugas>good to know
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13:26<frosch123>hehe, I cannot remember ever having done a non-debug build with delphi :)
13:27<@Belugas>we have releases :) so of course, we need to lower thwe size of the exes ;)
13:27<@Belugas>that's called deployment hehe
13:31<planetmaker>[17:18] <frosch123> poop planetmaker, alone against 10 noobs :p <-- hehehe... ;)
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13:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r14648 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-12-02 18:46:52
13:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 3 fixed, 5 changed by knovak (8)
13:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 37 changed by IPG (37)
13:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 62 fixed by fanioz (62)
13:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 17 fixed by Enternald (17)
13:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: malay - 66 fixed, 2 changed by tombakemas (68)
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13:55<@Belugas>Coder of the Month : translators!
13:59<welshdragon>yay!
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14:00<Wolf01>hello
14:00<benjamingoodger>hello
14:01<SmatZ>hello
14:01<@Belugas>hello
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14:01<Eddi|zuHause>¡holà!
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>á?
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>whatever
14:01<Wolf01>eh, the combo breakers...
14:01<benjamingoodger>the latter I think
14:05<@Belugas>the former I say
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14:06*benjamingoodger has german christmas biscuits
14:06<fjb>Yes.
14:06<fjb>What kind?
14:06<welshdragon>holà, ¿como es?
14:07<benjamingoodger>it just says "german"
14:07*welshdragon is a spanis student
14:07<welshdragon>*spanish
14:07<benjamingoodger>though there's cinnamon on the box, and I can taste ginger in them also
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14:09<fjb>Definitely sounds like german christmas biscuits.
14:09<Wolf01>benjamingoodger, if you can smell cinnamon then there's Spice on your biscuits, be careful with Spice
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14:10<benjamingoodger>*blink*
14:10<benjamingoodger>eh?
14:10<Wolf01>Spice, Dune, giant worms...
14:11<benjamingoodger>I see
14:11<benjamingoodger>no, I've checked the packet thoroughly for giant worms
14:11<Wolf01>no, they are really giant
14:12*fjb thinks that Italian wolves don't know much about German christmas biscuits.
14:12<Wolf01>and Spice make your eyes fully blue if you abuse assumption
14:12<Prof_Frink>Bigger than the one in the Hoth asteroid belt?
14:13<Wolf01>maybe they are of the same size
14:14<benjamingoodger>hm
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14:18<SmatZ>hmm program crashes when I run it... but doesn't crash when I run it in debugger :-x
14:19<Wolf01>that's normal
14:19<SmatZ>:)
14:19<frosch123>infact I encountered that several times in some delphi version. disabling the optimizer for the affected function helped :)
14:20<SmatZ>I don't recompile the program, I just run it in debugger - and it doesn't crash :)
14:21<@Rubidium>SmatZ: write a crashhandler that dumps a core file that you can then read in the debugger?
14:22<SmatZ>Rubidium: would be useful for OTTD too I guess :)
14:27*Belugas is on a Kitaro trip
14:28*Belugas is lightining some incense sticks
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14:47<@Belugas>yeah. appointments are done for tonigh. I've got two stores (of two different merchants) to upgrade
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14:48<@Belugas>how wonderful it is to know stuff others don't yet :S
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14:49<Eddi|zuHause>i have had that feeling many times :p
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16:03<@Belugas>[14:50] <Eddi|zuHause> i have had that feeling many times :p <--- yup :) just go on forums and you have that feeling ^_^
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16:14<Ishka>I have a question about the code: How do I show a debug message?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>grep -i debug src/*?
16:15<@Belugas>you do not send it to a nice popping window, if that's wat yu had in mind
16:16<Ishka>that is, what I had in mind.
16:16<Ishka>where is it send then?
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>no, debug messages are only ever sent to the console
16:17<Ishka>thank you.
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>the one where you started the game, or the ingame console (key above <tab>), depending on setting
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16:35<@Belugas>Ishka, but personnaly, i think that there's nothing better than a good breakpoint ;)
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16:41<Ishka>I like debugging in the applications, because webapplications (which I program normaly) are hardly run by debuggers ;)
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17:09<fjb>Will something like this make sense: "if (command.flags & (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT))"?
17:10<Aali>what are you checking for?
17:10<fjb>Checking if CF_GROUP etc are bits set in command.flags
17:11<Aali>that will tell you if any of those flags are set
17:11<fjb>CF_GROUP = 1 << 0
17:11<fjb>Hm, I want to tst if all of them are set.
17:12<fjb>This is C, by the way. Forgot to say that.
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17:13<Wolf01>'night
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17:14<Aali>what you need is (command.flags & (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT)) == (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT) but thats really messy so you should probably write it some other way (depending on what you're doing and where)
17:15<fjb>Thank you. Some #define may help.
17:15<Aali>indeed, if that makes sense with what you're working on
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17:19<fjb>Hm, could I also write " if (command.flags == (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT)) " if I want all of this but no other bit set?
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17:20<Aali>fjb: sure
17:20<fjb>Thank you.
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>you can check "if (~command.flags & (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT) == 0)" to check if all are set
17:28<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: yes, and people will scratch their heads wondering what the hell that is supposed to do
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>that's what "// checks if all of these flags are set" for
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>s/if/whether
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>/
17:30<Aali>that explains what it does, but it doesn't tell them how it works
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>then you send them to the next best logic lecture...
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17:32<Aali>well, I assume everyone is incompetent because most people I have ever worked with are :P
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>then they should the hell take their paws of this code
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>*off
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, that's the shortest version i could think of that doesn't use any preprocessor magic
17:35<Aali>we're not playing perl golf here :P
17:35<Aali>its not supposed to be short
17:36<fjb>But I have to admit that Eddi|zuHause's solution is really smart.
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17:37<Eddi|zuHause>short expressions CAN be a means to achieve readability
17:37<Aali>it is, and thats the problem, because then whoever modifies it has to be smart or it will break
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>there are really "worse" parts of the code in that aspect...
17:38<Aali>i would take clarity over shortness any day
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>and i hope you'll ever try to understand the yapf core :p
17:40<ccfreak2k>It's just using a logic AND to compare current flags with #defined flags.
17:40<ccfreak2k>It's not that hard to understand.
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17:41<Eddi|zuHause>those are enum values, not defines
17:42<ccfreak2k>My point remains valid.
17:42<fjb>Yes, enum.
17:43<fjb>But that should not make that much difference.
17:45<Ishka>good night
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17:48<fjb>I decides that Eddi|zuHause's solution is the best way to go in my project. The way I use should make it clear to everybody.
17:48<fjb>missing = ~command.flags & (CF_GROUP | CF_CMD | CF_DATA | CF_INT)
17:49<fjb>if (missing == 0) ... else ...
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18:17<ccfreak2k>:|
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18:24<nicfer1>hmmm would be too hard to port openttd to rockbox?
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18:25<burbas>Hi. Is there a setting that disable airports on a server?
18:25<nicfer1>yes, set max numbers of airplanes to 0
18:26<burbas>ah. Thank you.
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18:40<nicfer1>oh, and the apt repositories doesn't yet have 0.6.3
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>that you'll have to talk to the repository maintainers about
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18:45<@Rubidium>nicfer1: the apt repositories do have 0.6.3
18:45<@Rubidium>... but only in unstable
18:45<@Rubidium>because testing is in deep freeze
18:45<@Rubidium>and you may be happy that 0.6.2 even got in
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18:46<nicfer1>oh, I'm using testing I think (lenny)
18:49<welshdragon>anybody recognise the email translators-all@localhost ?
18:49<@Rubidium>that was me :(
18:49<welshdragon>aah
18:49<welshdragon>i got it
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18:50<nicfer1>is the new economy and balancing patch updated?
18:51-!-meush [~Amadeusz@76-10-183-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #openttd
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what you mean with "new", "economy", "balancing" or "updated"
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19:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14649 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change: consistently use can't instead of primarily can't and a bit of cannot in english.txt.
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>once upon a time i got taught that contractions are for spoken language only
19:11<@Rubidium>could well be
19:12<@Rubidium>I'd've liked writing this way ;)
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19:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14650 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Merge: changelog etc. changes from the 0.6 branch.
19:16<nicfer1>would be cool to edit the map generator so it can generate rivers
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19:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14651 /trunk/ (configure projects/generate): -Fix [FS#2437] (r14636): extmidi wasn't compiled/linked anymore.
19:20<meush>nicfer1, i like it
19:20<meush>i remember thaat topic
19:21<meush>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=23020&hilit=map+generator+rivers
19:21<meush>anyone knows what happened to richk and his plentiful of patches?
19:22<meush>like newgrf airports, he's done a nice job and suddenly said he's out of business
19:23<@Rubidium>meush: the "nice" really depends on how you look at it
19:23<meush>aha, they were not nice codewise
19:23<meush>he felt he has no dev support
19:23<meush>and gave up?
19:24<@Rubidium>depends on what you call "support"
19:25<meush>he was told that the patch will never get into the trunk, so there was no point continuing it?
19:25<@Rubidium>if "support" means that the devs do most of the coding work, then no... he had no support. If it means that we debated it and guided him then he had support
19:25<@Rubidium>meush: ... the *current* patch ...
19:26<@Rubidium>really... how easy it is to mislead people by omitting words
19:26<meush>so why had he discontinued developement of newgrf airports patch?
19:27<benjamingoodger>very uneasy
19:27<benjamingoodger>by which I mean "not very uneasy"
19:27<@Rubidium>the curse word of all open source development: real life
19:27<meush>ahh, okay
19:28<meush>thanks
19:28<meush>after all it may good for him
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19:29<nicfer1>about disasters, shouldn't be possible to add a newgrf action for them?
19:31<nicfer1>and if it isn't possible, then why not a platform for them like NoAI is for AIs (warning, engrish ahead)
19:32-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F5D979.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's not about whether it's possible
19:32<nicfer1>how about NoDisasters? ;)
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's about whether someone has enough time to put up a decent spec, and then more time to actually implement it
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19:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's about whether someone has enough time to put up a decent spec, and then more time to actually implement it
19:33<@Rubidium>and then two times as much time as it takes quite a few implementation iterations before it's right
19:35<nicfer1>forget the second option, as it's better with current patching system
19:36<nicfer1>with the*
19:38<@Rubidium>and the chance that you find someone willing to code it is fairly small because people primarily get annoyed by disasters
19:41<nicfer1>well, the main trouble is that the current disasters are not very friendly with openttd's objectives
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>er... correct me if i'm wrong, but disasters are supposed to be "not friendly"
19:51<fjb>The ufos really did annoy me. The mine disaster was boring. So is don't use disasters any more. A river disaster could be more interesting.
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>the main annoyance about the UFOs is that you only get a message when they land, not when they blow up
19:53<nicfer1>I mean, the objectives of ottd say no war inciting or such features and the disasters are doing that
19:53<meush>war? where? except for bombing ufo
19:53<meush>but that would be called by TV "bringing peace"
19:54<nicfer1>the factory being destroyed by the heli...
19:54<nicfer1>the oil refinery by the other aircraft
19:54<nicfer1>and the small ufo is kinda unpacifist, isn't it?
19:54<nicfer1>don't forget the submarines
19:55<nicfer1>the only 'neutral' disaster is the coal mine one
19:56<nicfer1>OT: I want a toyland replacement that makes it look like LSD
19:57<nicfer1>:D
19:57<nicfer1>well, a LSD trip
19:57<nicfer1>jk
19:57<benjamingoodger>it already looks like that
19:57<nicfer1>lmao
19:58<benjamingoodger>saying things like "ploddyphut choo-choo" would probably get you arrested in some parts of the world
19:59<nicfer1>roflcopter
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20:05<Eddi|zuHause>you must have a great deal of experience to judge that it looks like an LSD trip...
20:06<fjb>How do I tell gcc that a constant is of type unsigned long long (in a #define)?
20:06<@Rubidium>using defines for constants is not wise
20:07<fjb>Why not?
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>12345ull?
20:08<@Rubidium>fjb: because then you can't use constants in gdb
20:08<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: thank you, that is working.
20:10<fjb>But I will still see the value in gdb. Using gdb is also not really wise in my project.
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>you can use an enum
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>those can be turned into debug symbols
20:11<fjb>gdb and realtime don't get together that wel...
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>but i have no idea to get enums to be of type unsigned long long
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>not at the same time, certainly
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>but you do have a period of time where you are testing stuff that does not depend on the real time property
20:13<@Rubidium>fjb: why not?
20:13<fjb>I still didn't see any need to use gdb yet.
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>until you actually run into a bug you don't find...
20:13<fjb>Rubidium: gdb makes things too slow.
20:13<fjb>Found all bugs yet.
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>you obviously won't ever run gdb on the production system...
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20:38<SmatZ>hmm it's December again....
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you notice that because there are these little boxes with numbers 1 to 24 on the wall
20:39<SmatZ>:)
20:40<benjamingoodger>december is the time when christmas advertising goes from "overtly irritating" to "saturation"
20:41<SmatZ>I would understand christmass adverts in December, but not in October :-x
20:41<benjamingoodger>it's worse than that
20:42<benjamingoodger>ALDI started selling mince pies in september
20:42*SmatZ mumbles something about capitalism and misusing traditions for profit
20:42<SmatZ>hehe
20:42<benjamingoodger>and their sell-by dates didn't extend to christmas...
20:42<SmatZ>:-D
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>well, at least that means there is a new doctor who special upcoming ;)
20:45<benjamingoodger>quite
20:45<benjamingoodger>and the impending departure of RTD
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 03 00:00:43 2008