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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-12-15

---Logopened Mon Dec 15 00:00:38 2008
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03:03<dihedral>hello?
03:03<dihedral>knock knock
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04:12<dihedral>everyone's dead :-(
04:12<dihedral>we're gonna die!
04:12<dihedral>we're all gonna die!
04:12<Forked>I'll deal with that later
04:12<Forked>busy enjoying my coffee now
04:13<Eddi|zuHause>tomorrow, i promise.
04:14<jerker>hi! after slightly more than a week of happy openttd'ing here's some new junctions. :-) http://www.update.uu.se/~jerker/openttd/ :-) Since I made them, they must be brilliant (err), but hmm wouldn't it be great to rate different junctions?
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04:15<@petern>not really?
04:16<planetmaker>g'day
04:16<@petern>i for one just build what is necessary
04:17<jerker>i'm more into the Build Beutiful Things With Rails and then damn I got to fill them with some traffic, let's see what we got.
04:17<@petern>bah, why does every little web based interface require its own login system and database
04:17<jerker>(beautiful)
04:18<planetmaker>jerker: pretty slow junction, I'd say. And long signal length for straight...
04:18<planetmaker>at least for train lengths > 2 tiles.
04:19<jerker>Mmmm. But compact and lockfree.
04:19<@petern>i think a nice simple pbs junction is more elegant ;)
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04:20<planetmaker>jerker: compact, yes, lock free yes :) But max speed 60 odd km/h for trains turning.
04:21<jerker>planetmaker: only for those turing left?
04:22<planetmaker>wrong... 111 km/h according to http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Speed#Vehicle_speeds
04:22<jerker>interesting
04:22<Forked>mmm pbs mmmm
04:23*Forked fetches some more music from home
04:23<Forked>too much Eels make you weird(er)
04:23<planetmaker>jerker: for trains turning both directions. 111km/h for turns in both directions coming from East/west with TL > 2 tiles
04:23<planetmaker>hm... and also North-South. The diagonal parts are in all cases max 2 tiles long.
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04:24<planetmaker>jerker: mind that a s-shaped bend does not count as two bends.
04:26<jerker>for a right turn, diagonal (four squares)
04:26<jerker>how many wagons fit in? two per square?
04:27<planetmaker>approx. two per tile. Depends upon train set
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04:28<planetmaker>right, the 2nd image is better wrt right turns :)
04:30<planetmaker>jerker: you might gain a lot (considering 2nd image, if you bridge the East-West straight lines over the left turns which then could be one level lower.
04:30<planetmaker>and straight diagonals.
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04:33*jerker is trying to comprehend
04:33<@petern>"avoid bends" :)
04:35-!-oftc [~oftc@g229071159.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
04:35<planetmaker>jerker: build left turns like the right turns - and accomodate the straight tracks using bridges over them.
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04:36<jerker>aha :)
04:37<planetmaker>:)
04:37<dihedral>lol - someone loging in as oftc? :-D
04:37<dihedral>guest1305 ^
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04:38<planetmaker>:D
04:39<planetmaker>hanseatic understatment - or undercover ;)
04:39<dihedral>jerker, you do know the openttdcoop junctionary, right?
04:39*planetmaker wonders, too...
04:39<dihedral>pm: what say you to freeform map edges for wwottdgd?
04:40<jerker>dihedral: yep, but i didn't find this particular junction there
04:40<dihedral>no you would not - the junctions there are usually for very high load
04:40<dihedral>:-P
04:40<jerker>:)
04:40<dihedral>huge ass networks :-P
04:41*planetmaker goes reading on freeform edges.
04:41<dihedral>with probably more trains in the junctions than you have in your entire network :-P
04:41<planetmaker>... the screeny in the first post looks great :)
04:41<dihedral>(slight overstatement :-P)
04:41<dihedral>yes - it does
04:41<dihedral>it looks like it would make a nice difference to playing too :-P
04:42<dihedral>and if you really wanted water all the way round - there are rivers and canals :-P
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04:43<dihedral>now it would be lovely to get the map generator to detect if there is a river grf (if it still does not come with openttd) and generate rivers :-)
04:43<dihedral>pm: how is IS doing btw?
04:44<planetmaker>... it should work afaik.
04:44<planetmaker>But currently I have like no time at all.
04:44<planetmaker>dihedral: it doesn't need river grfs in order to create rivers. normal water tiles do, too ;)
04:45<planetmaker>the biggest problem is a reasonable generation of rivers...
04:45-!-nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
04:46<dihedral>well - for wwottdgd it's enough for us to make a map :-)
04:47<dihedral>and i think freeform map edges (ffme :-P) would be really cool for that event :-)
04:48<@petern>you can have rivers without the river grf, i believe
04:48<@petern>may not look as pretty mind you
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04:49<dihedral>ah - ok
04:49<dihedral>i thought you needed the grf for rivers ;-)
04:49<@petern>you should get plain sea without it
04:49<dihedral>yes
04:49<planetmaker>you don't need them. But it looks a bit boring without.
04:49<@petern>i think
04:49<planetmaker>petern: yes, that's what happens. I know from my attempt to create rivers...
04:49<planetmaker>... which is still sleeping ;)
04:50<dihedral>hmmm.... perhaps you guys would like to include a river grf with openttd?
04:50<planetmaker>you'd need MB's permission. His rapids are nice :)
04:51<dihedral>or start a thread in the forums and ask some authors, with a statement in the first post that all attached grf's are free to distribution with openttd if the devs wish to do so :-P
04:51<planetmaker>Hehe ;)
04:51<dihedral>or that they are GPL'ed
04:51<planetmaker>Though MB might agree to inclusion. OpenTTD has already quite some grfs by him...
04:52<planetmaker>if it works the easier approach.
04:52<dihedral>well - the dev's still need to say they would want it :-P
04:53<planetmaker>:P
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04:55<@petern>it's still nice to ask permission
04:56<@petern>grr, my socks have shrunk
04:57<dihedral>mksock
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>mb is typically a nice person if you ask him
04:57<dihedral>petern, which though would be a nicer approach? asking the devs if they want it, and then asking MB, or the other way round ;-)
04:58<@petern>*cough* george *cough* ship *cough* ecs *cough*
04:58*dihedral pats petern on the back
04:58<@petern>best approach: write a river generator for the terrain generator :)
04:58<dihedral>hehe
04:58<@petern>then there'll be more need for it, heh
04:58<dihedral>i have not the slightest about the generator :-P
04:59<dihedral>and it would need some configurable settings for the generator i assume :-)
04:59<dihedral>i think i would be the wrong person for that kind of job
04:59<dihedral>i prefer network and console stuff :-P
05:00<dihedral>talking of network - perhaps i should update my move patch
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05:07<planetmaker>dihedral: definitely :)
05:08<@petern>move patch?
05:08<dihedral>petern, moving players in the game from one company to another?
05:08<dihedral>including to/from spectators
05:08<dihedral>current status uses an extra network packet
05:08<@petern>nice
05:09<dihedral>it's in fs, as a hidden ticket
05:09<@petern>what about join game as spectator, decide to start as new company?
05:09<dihedral>if you feel like it, you could re-open it for me
05:09<dihedral>petern, should be possible :-)
05:09<dihedral>for wwottdgd i had forced every client to join as spectator, and let the server memorize where a user was last moved to, and next time they joined they were automoved :-)
05:10<@petern>know the fs#?
05:10<@petern>oh, 1363
05:10<dihedral>let me check - out of the top of my head i would say 1306 but i am not 100% sure
05:11<@petern>and it's hidden?
05:11<@petern>'s not
05:11<@petern>status new
05:14<dihedral>bjarni did something with it, so it was not public anymore
05:14<dihedral>ah - it's not 1306
05:14<dihedral>:P
05:15<@petern>it is
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05:15<@petern>i can see it
05:15<dihedral>1363
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05:15<@petern>i said that
05:15<dihedral>oh
05:15<dihedral>did not see that, sorry
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05:16<dihedral>so you would like a method that people can join a server as spectator and then decide to start a company (or join one and be promted for a password)?
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05:17*Forked slaps FloSoft
05:17<FloSoft>sorry
05:17<Forked>you've been Forked!
05:18<FloSoft>argh, i want to be knived! not forked! XD
05:18<Forked>I prefer spooning :\
05:19<FloSoft>i had to correct that damn ident-daemon, sorry for reconnects
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05:19<@petern>dihedral, or switch from any company to another, password allowing
05:20<@petern>as a server option though
05:20<dihedral>sure - will do something nice :-)
05:20<roboboy>anyone know the correct way of aborting a form close in vb?
05:21<dihedral>hmmmm.... petern: with gui?
05:21<dihedral>or is a console command good enough for starters?
05:22<@petern>might be a suitable menu it can be bolted on to
05:22<@petern>although thinking about it
05:22<@petern>the "give money to client" option is stupid
05:22<@petern>it should be "give money to company"
05:23<dihedral>then one should move it to the company window
05:24<dihedral>and have the option of giving money to a company with no currently logged in users
05:24<@petern>exactly
05:25<dihedral>and a 'join' company button in the same window
05:27<Zuu>roboboy: I though there was a event for user want to close a window in VB6. But it's not in VBA, but could be one of the differences between VB6 and VBA though. (I've been coding quite some VBA lately and have had the issue that I can't detect when users close window on the x-button)
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05:39<roboboy>ive found it
05:48<roboboy>gnight
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06:24<Eddi|zuHause>anyone fit with databases? does an "UPDATE" sql-command raise an exception when the row does not exist, or does it add it?
06:25<@Rubidium>it does nothing
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>so i need to "SELECT" first and check if anything is in it, and then use "INSERT"?
06:25<TrueBrain>but there is a command which does both
06:26<TrueBrain>UPDATE INSERT .. INSERT UPDATE .. can't remember what it was exactly :p
06:26<TrueBrain>(well, it also kind of depends on your DB :p)
06:26<@Rubidium>it's insert into X on duplicate key update Y for MySQL
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'm using sqlite
06:29<TrueBrain>as far as I know, sqlite doesn't support that (well, 2 didn't, don't know about 3)
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>is there a short version for checking "if <tuple> exists in <table>" without naming each row?
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>err... column
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06:32<Eddi|zuHause>or can i declare a table that each complete row should be unique?
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>wah i hate databases...
06:32<@Rubidium>make all columns part of the primary key, or make a unique key containing all columns
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06:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'm trying to store (parent, child) tuples for a hierarchy in a database, where parent and child are technically foreign keys into a different table
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't need duplicate edges
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07:03<Eddi|zuHause>'CREATE TABLE hierarchy (parent_cid INTEGER, child_cid INTEGER, UNIQUE (parent_cid, child_cid))' <- i think that's what i want... now only needs catching the non-unique-exception
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07:59<dihedral>short visit :-P
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08:07<TrueBrain>rather short than none at all ;)
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08:12*dihedral lunches
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08:19<Terkhen>hello
08:21<TrueBrain>hi Terkhen
08:22-!-Osai^zZz is now known as Osai
08:36<edeca>Hrm, can newgrfs affect competitors? I changed some newgrfs and started a new game and there is no AI :(
08:36<edeca>I had AI in a previous game with the same nightly
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08:45<dihedral>edeca: did you check the config settings?
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08:50<TrueBrain>I AM BORED!
08:51<blathijs>Does that hurt?
08:51<TrueBrain>yes!
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08:56<TrueBrain>lol, some user said to me: wow, we live really close to eachother; our IP addresses are almost the same
08:57<TrueBrain>omg ....
08:57<dihedral>lol :-D
08:57<dihedral>well....
08:57<dihedral>10.0.0.1 and 10.0.0.2? :-D
08:57<dihedral>hihihihi
08:57<TrueBrain>haha
08:57<TrueBrain>I will remember that comment next time I am sitting in the train next to a cute girl with GRPS connection :p Mwhahahahahahaa
08:57<TrueBrain>(sigh )
08:58<dihedral>lol
08:58<dihedral>i had a candle light dinner the other day
08:58<dihedral>2 candles, 2 nice wine glasses
08:58<dihedral>and i drank out of the bottle
08:58<TrueBrain>so you were with 3 people?
08:58<Forked>I think you did it wrong
08:58<dihedral>no - on my own :-P
08:59<TrueBrain>that is just sad ..
09:02<TrueBrain>so then .... still nothing to do .. lalala...
09:02<Gekz>TrueBrain: learn to english?
09:02<Gekz>:P
09:04<TrueBrain>I english, you english, we english
09:04<TrueBrain>I guess you can use a few classes too
09:04<Gekz>lol
09:05<Gekz>lets not argue about who's proficient in which english
09:05<Gekz>because it will end with yorick getting banned again
09:05<TrueBrain>just stating the facts here :)
09:06<Gekz>Your face states facts
09:06<Gekz>!
09:06<Gekz>I must sleep.
09:06<Gekz>Return to your bored state.
09:06<TrueBrain>I refuse
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09:10<bigg>im sturgling putting new gfr on any help
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09:13<TrueBrain>[translator started] ..... [failure] .... sorry bigg, I have no idea what you tried to say.
09:13<TrueBrain>oh .. well .. that was easy :p
09:13<TrueBrain>hahaha
09:14<Forked>you have less than 3 minutes to respond
09:14<Forked>you know t hat
09:14<TrueBrain>yeah .. we should hire someone with a SLA of 3 minute response time :)
09:15<TrueBrain>you think we can afford that?
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09:15<TrueBrain>wb Belugas
09:20<TrueBrain>hmm .. google fails to load here on one machine ..
09:20<TrueBrain>weird
09:21<edeca>dihedral: Config settings for opponents? Yes I made sure there was a max of 6
09:21<dihedral>talking of yorick - that reminds me i still have to take out the garbage at home....
09:21<welshdragon>poor yorick :0
09:21<dihedral>edeca: load the game and check the settings :)
09:22<edeca>dihedral: Is it only that 1 settings?
09:22<edeca>dihedral: Er, setting
09:22<edeca>dihedral: I can't play at work, but I can confirm later :)
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09:24<dihedral>number of ai's, and months after they start
09:24<dihedral>afaik
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09:27<edeca>dihedral: Yep, I'm fairly certain they were set right. Even if it's dumb, it's no fun without the AI
09:27<TrueBrain>hmm .. google worked for a sec ... now it is gone again :(
09:27<TrueBrain>edeca: try NoAI :)
09:28<dihedral>:-)
09:28<dihedral>TrueBrain, if he considers playing with the current (in trunk) ai to be fun - he will not like NoAI
09:28<dihedral>:-P
09:28<TrueBrain>good point :)
09:29<edeca>Heh, I was being sarcastic
09:29<dihedral>esp not Yexo's General
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09:29<edeca>The AI serves to develop towns for me to abuse later
09:29<TrueBrain>I think I will start a nice game of cargodest ..
09:29<dihedral>then i dont want to help you :-P
09:29<TrueBrain>maybe that avoids my boreness ..
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09:30*edeca searches for NoAI
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09:31<TrueBrain>http://www.openttd.org/en/download-noai
09:31<TrueBrain>you also need an AI I guess
09:31<TrueBrain>I Think Yexo has one for you
09:31<TrueBrain>else look at the forum :) (General -> NoAI)
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09:32<dihedral>is there no wraightai no more_
09:32<dihedral>?
09:32<TrueBrain>wrightAI
09:32<TrueBrain>and yes, it is there
09:33<dihedral>yes that one
09:33<TrueBrain>still, not as good as one of the other ones :)
09:33<edeca>TrueBrain: Which other one? :|
09:34<TrueBrain>look at the forum
09:34<edeca>OK.
09:34<TrueBrain>(as I told you 3 minutes ago ;))
09:34<dihedral>:-P
09:34<edeca>More cryptic than a room full of dead people :)
09:35<TrueBrain>or of course the wiki pages
09:35<edeca>The development roadmap is interesting
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09:36<TrueBrain>which one? :p
09:36<edeca>Well, the "requested features"
09:37<edeca>I used to play miniin, so it's cool to see the better features getting into trunk
09:37<TrueBrain>even for "requrested features" there are like N (with N > 10) pages
09:38<edeca>Ah, well I found the one linked from "development", that's all.
09:38<TrueBrain>ah, thatone ;)
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09:39<TrueBrain>damn, my CPU is overloaded .. scrolling in OpenTTD is a bitch iin that case :)
09:39<@petern>don't scroll!
09:40<TrueBrain>sounds like a plan :)
09:40<edeca>What size map?
09:40<TrueBrain>too big :) And updating my base-system in the meanwhile is a bad idea too ;) (Gentoo)
09:40<TrueBrain>somehow my sound managed to patch itself over the netwerk to my esound server ..
09:41<TrueBrain>I wonder how it managed to do that ..
09:41<edeca>Heh. As long as you're using paludis ;)
09:42<TrueBrain>the latest emerge is really good :)
09:53<TrueBrain>I really need a function: clone N times :p
09:53<dihedral>nono!
09:53<dihedral>one TrueBrain is more than enough :-P
09:53<TrueBrain>truth
09:55<TrueBrain>cargodest makes innercity transport really hard
09:56<dihedral>hehe - yes
09:56<dihedral>goes insance
09:56<dihedral>eh
09:56<dihedral>insane
09:56<TrueBrain>I already have 40 RV for 2 towns ... that to connect via 1 airport :p
09:56<dihedral>i had a nice setup ones - with a few trams feeding stations and then joined the 5 cities with trains
09:57<dihedral>and they all wanted to go to the badly setup tram-stops :-S
09:57<dihedral>that was a pain
09:57<TrueBrain>haha, cargodest doesn't blanace cargo over 2 nearby stations :)
09:57<dihedral>like 2000 people at a main station waiting for trams
09:57<TrueBrain>you either need to use: no unloading, to avoid trams moving pax within the inner city
09:58<TrueBrain>or add an insane amount of trams :)
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09:58<TrueBrain>top shelve!
09:59<TrueBrain>that you can't balance airports sucks ... :p
10:01<TrueBrain>but okay, in general 'transfering' stuff is bad for income :)
10:01<dihedral>laters - i am off home :-)
10:01<TrueBrain>enjoy
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10:15<TrueBrain>hmm .. it would be useful in cargodest if you can indicate to a train it should only pick up goods for stations he directly connection (and not: next hop)
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10:24<TrueBrain>it takes a while, but enoug heffort, you can balance your cargodest network pretty nice :) Hehe
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11:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm... why can't they ship external HDs with decently long USB cables?
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>i mean 1m hardly suffices for placing the HD on the desk
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm... preformatted with VFAT... to what should i change that? (it should be readable in case i need to access it from a windows disk...)
11:09<@petern>1m?
11:09<@petern>last set i got had ~ 15cm cables
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>the 1m was an estimate... could be 80cm or something
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>2m or 3m could actually be useful...
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>anyway... reformatting? ext3? ntfs?
11:10<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: 16 MB FAT for the Windows drivers for the file system used for the rest of the HD
11:11<FauxFaux>Exfat!
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>i have no good experience with accessing linux fs from windows
11:12<@Rubidium>2 GB FAT for a virtual PC image?
11:12<FauxFaux>Heh.
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'm feeling experimental today, i might actually try ntfs
11:13<@petern>ntfs does not work well if you need to use it with linux, heh
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>so stay with fat? does not strike me as a good idea either...
11:16<benjamingoodger>NTFS is the best 1992 has to offer
11:16<benjamingoodger>besides the UNIX one that was developed in the same year
11:17<@petern>what you need is a filesystem that doesn't need unmounting
11:17<benjamingoodger>unless you have files over 2GB, I'd use FAT32 just because it's more reliable; otherwise; you're stuck with NTFS
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>petern: suggestions?
11:17<@petern>NTFS is more reliable than FAT32
11:17<TrueBrain>xfs to the win! :p
11:17<@petern>Eddi|zuHause, no :)
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>i've had NTFS drives attached to this linux box before... besides of access rights and occasional hiccups with big files, i have not had significant problems
11:18<benjamingoodger>petern: it's more reliable until it breaks, at which point you curse yourself wishing you'd used FAT32
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>and i can't guarantee files to be less than 2GB
11:19<@petern>mainly because FAT errors usually go unnoticed
11:20<benjamingoodger>once, after I reinstalled windows, it wouldn't allow me to access any of my personal data because I wasn't the right user
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>really, with the improvements to NTFS handling in the past years, i fancy this one as the most platform transferable one
11:20<benjamingoodger>I was using the right username, so I suppose it was just the user ID, which I couldn't access or view
11:21<@petern>you should be able to fix that as administrator
11:21<benjamingoodger>yes, I should have
11:21<benjamingoodger>¬.¬
11:21<@petern>although saying that, i have a filesystem with files that administrator can't delete...
11:24<planetmaker>There's always a possibility to delete them... as last resort use a huge magnet ;)
11:24<benjamingoodger>that doesn't usually work, you know
11:25<@petern>yeah, i kind of need the rest of it :p
11:25<planetmaker>benjamingoodger: show me a usual HD which is not suceptible to magnetism.
11:26<benjamingoodger>oh, I'm not saying they're not susceptible to magnetic fields
11:26<benjamingoodger>but I've seen HDDs attacked with degaussing coils and emerging completely unscathed
11:26<planetmaker>ah... always those nasty boundary conditions which make void the easy solution...
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11:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't suppose linux has a tool similar to the windows "safely shut down usb device"?
11:27<benjamingoodger>it's known as "umount"
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>at least eject /dev/sdc doesn't work
11:27<planetmaker>or eject.
11:27<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: in what way "doesn't work"?
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>eject: unable to eject, last error: Invalid argument
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>eject /dev/sr0 works as intended (dvd drive)
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>and i remember it worked with usb sticks
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>hm... when i open "system:/media" in konqueror, it shows the drive and an "eject safely" option, which unmounts the device, and then shows an error "could unmount, but not eject"
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>i'm really tempted to use ntfs now...
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause>err... is it advisable to enable compression?
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>"Initializing device with zeroes" ... i should probably skip this part
11:37<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: are you then sure it's mounted where you think?
11:38<planetmaker>Suse 11 mounts it under the device name like /media/myfancyUSBstickName
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i am sure i can read the output of "mount" and compare it with the output i memorised
11:38<planetmaker>:)
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>/dev/sdc1 on /media/Elements type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,noatime,flush,uid=1000,utf8,shortname=lower)
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>this is the new line
11:39<@petern>heh
11:39<@petern>Elements!
11:40<@petern>so it's a WD drive...
11:40<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: and eject /media/Elements ?
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>apparently eject does actually unmount it prior to emitting this error message
11:40<planetmaker>:D
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11:44<Eddi|zuHause>but now it doesn't mount anymore... aside of calling mkntfs and changing the partition table, what else should i do?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>i can mount it manually, but the automounter gets confused
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>NTFS-fs error (device sdc1): parse_options(): Unrecognized mount option locale.
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>NTFS-fs warning (device sdc1): parse_options(): Option utf8 is no longer supported, using option nls=utf8. Please use option nls=utf8 in the future and make sure utf8 is compiled either as a module or into the kernel.
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>err... what?!?
11:47<@petern>automouter... heh
11:48<@petern>udev + hal seems to handle everything automagically
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what it actually uses...
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause>http://linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/SuSE/2008-07/msg00772.html <- that appears to help...
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12:29*SpComb wonders if SDL is a better library than ClanLib
12:31<@Rubidium>what defines better?
12:31<@Rubidium>e.g. Allegro's better w.r.t. MIDI handling than SDL, but the rest is IMO worse than SDL
12:34<SpComb>in terms of a 2D network multiplayer game that has physics
12:35<@Rubidium>looking at the API I'd go for clanlib
12:35<SpComb>ClanLib is a surprisingly large library that gives you a lot of funtionality
12:35<SpComb>...but the quality is a bit meh
12:36*Rubidium likes Allegro's API ;)
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12:36<@Rubidium>http://alleg.sourceforge.net/stabledocs/en/alleg036.html#i_love_bill <- especially that part of the API
12:37<SpComb>so I was kind of wondering what OpenTTD thinks about SDL
12:37<SpComb>I guess you don't use SDL's networking stuff
12:37<@Rubidium>does SDL do networking?
12:37<SpComb>it seems so
12:37<@Rubidium>oh, the extra sdl net library
12:39<@Rubidium>seems like clanlib depends on sdl
12:39<SpComb>it has 23k lines of OpenGL code
12:40<SpComb>and the SDL code is missing a lot of functionality... so I assume our game right now actually uses ClanLib's OpenGL code, not the SDL code
12:42<@Rubidium>clanlib seems to have quite a few dependencies
12:43<SpComb>the compiled library files are, like, over 100MB in size :P
12:43<SpComb>does not sit well with the 200MB quota that they have on student accounts here...
12:45*yorick explodes
12:45<SpComb>what annoys me a lot with ClanLib is that there isn't really any sensible mainloop support, and things like network/input/timer events are horrible
12:45<SpComb>strace'ing an application written using ClanLib is... ugh
12:45<SpComb>there's like 120 system calls for receiving and sending an UDP packet
12:45<@Rubidium>that's more than strictly necessary I reckon
12:47<SpComb>orly
12:47<SpComb>and then there's like two dozen calls to getpid() per graphics frame
12:51<yorick>yapp is really too complicated with all the dummy-proof
12:54<SpComb>hrmph, SDL's network API is stupid
12:55<SpComb>http://www.libsdl.org/cgi/docwiki.cgi/SDL_net
12:57<Eddi|zuHause><SpComb> does not sit well with the 200MB quota that they have on student accounts here... <- they used to do that here, too, but you could just fill out a form to request more
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i have not seen any enforcing of quotas lately, though
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>and i believe my emails alone make up like 600MB
12:58<SpComb>yeah, I need to work on that some day... there's no fuse (well, it's installed, but not configured to give student users permission to use it), and then there's a scratch disk with no quotas, but they clean that out way too often
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>where half of that goes on 3 emails of 100MB size each (some automatic svn diff sending going haywire)
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13:05<digger>Need help how to arrange semaphores
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13:06<Eddi|zuHause>one signal between any two trains.
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>simplest rule ever...
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13:08<digger>I have long a long line. The line is one-track on most of length because of cost.At some places
13:09<digger>There are two tracks. So real railway works. The trains can move in either directions.
13:10<Aali>bi-dir double track doesn't work very well in ottd
13:10<digger>They should never move backwards from destination. If a line is buzy, it waits on two-track
13:10<digger>:(
13:10<frosch123>do you play with 0.6.x or with nightlies?
13:11<digger>If I build two-track line, I make it one-way , it is trivial.0.6.3.
13:11<Aali>so at those passing lanes, you should probably let trains going one way always use the passing lane
13:11<Aali>and trains going the other way can use the mainline
13:11<digger>I will try
13:11<digger>---<====>------------<=====>-----------<=====>-----
13:11<digger>It looks so
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>digger: if you use twoway signals, having 2 trains may cause a deadlock, if you use 1-way signals at the sidings, you can have 3 trains, if you also use presignals, you can use a few more
13:12<Aali>but with the signals in 0.6.3, you can get deadlocks
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>but the presignals only work in one direction, so the other cannot be presignalled
13:12<digger>Yes, I got. 2 trains come from 2 directions to same semaphore
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>if you use nightlies, you can use path signals, those work significantly better
13:13<digger>what is nightlies? Anyway at network one play 0.6.x
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>digger: for the 2 track sections, put one way signals for each direction
13:13<Aali>with path based signals or PBS, you can make passing lanes that never deadlock
13:13<digger>thanks!
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13:13<Eddi|zuHause>and do not put signals on the single track sections
13:14<Aali>..too late
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>"blitzquitter"
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>hm... it appears that ntfs does not compress files copied to the drive, even if the drive is marked to compress
13:16<SpComb>http://pastebin.com/m10a63de7 <-- that's what strace looks like for a mainloop iteration where a packet is received
13:16<SpComb>lines 38 and 57 are the actual recvfrom/sendto calls on the actual UDP socket
13:16<SpComb>the rest is just garbage
13:17<SpComb>plus the millions of one-socket select()s that are used to implement the single-threaded event-based stuff in ClanLib
13:18<SpComb>haet, the ClanLib devs should run strace on their code and then go stick forks in their eyes :<
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what that is supposed to tell us
13:23<SpComb>there's probably some C++ class (CL_IPAddress?) with a constructor that calls getaddrinfo somehow, and some kind of temporary object is being created somewhere
13:23<SpComb>created, and discarded, created, and discarded... completely useless
13:24<Aali>its a bad case of java disease
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13:25<Aali>everything is an object
13:25<Wolf01>olleh
13:25<Aali>everything does everything
13:25<Aali>everything is "fool proof"
13:25<Wolf01>are you sure, Aali?
13:26<Aali>I am, the question is, are you sure Wolf01?
13:26<Wolf01>at least if everything = Chuck Norris
13:27<Aali>Chuck Norris "jokes" were never cool :/
13:28<SpComb>basically, if you ever hear someone claim that ClanLib's network code is "efficient", you can just laugh at them
13:28<SpComb>that's disregarding the CL_Socket copy constructor that leaves the address family initialized to random garbage and the threading deadlock bugs in CL_NetSession
13:30<SpComb>http://gameprogrammer.com/fastevents/fastevents1.html <-- and based on that kind of stuff, SDL isn't really perfect either
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14:23<@Belugas>so... an idea is an object...
14:23<@Belugas>interesting
14:24<@Belugas>a dream is an object
14:24<@Belugas>even more...
14:25<Wolf01>you have to pay for ideas and dreams, and if you try to copy them you are a thief, so yes, they are objects
14:27<@Belugas>buwhahahaha
14:27<@Belugas>stop the glue!
14:27<@Belugas>it's bad for da brain
14:28<Wolf01>sorry, I'm playing with access and databases, so I think I have something wrong on my brain
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14:32<@Belugas>hehehe
14:32<@Belugas>can barely call Access a database ^_^
14:32<Wolf01>no, I'm using MSSQLExpress for the database
14:38<@Belugas>aaaah.... now you (start) to talk :)
14:39<Wolf01>I might sound stupid, but I'm not crazy ;)
14:40<Wolf01>I have to define 10 colors for the priority, what's better? [Grayscale|GreenToRed]
14:41<SmatZ>Grayscale
14:41<SmatZ>bear in mind ~10% of male population is more or less colourblind
14:41<@Belugas>numbers then!
14:42<Wolf01>I have numbers too, but I like the background color :P
14:42<planetmaker>Wolf: blue to yellow is a good transition
14:43<Wolf01>uhm nice
14:43<Wolf01>and the middle color?
14:43<planetmaker>green maybe? :)
14:43<Wolf01>good
14:43<@Belugas>or.... red yellow green
14:43<Wolf01>I'll try that
14:44<Wolf01>that was the second choice ;)
14:45<planetmaker>http://www.dfanning.com/documents/programs.html#Programs%20for%20Working%20with%20Colors <-- another proposal :)
14:45<@Belugas>white blue red
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14:47<Wolf01>uhm... DOH! 9 colors, not 10... 0 to 240 / 10 = intervals of 24 units not 30!
14:48<planetmaker>:)
14:52<planetmaker>http://www.personal.psu.edu/cab38/ColorBrewer/ColorBrewer_intro.html <-- site to check color palettes. Choices are such that impaired vision is taken care of.
14:53<jerker>how do I check out a specific release from SVN, not the trunk? (using command line svn in Linux)
14:54<frosch123>start with 'svn ls svn://svn.openttd.org'
14:54<frosch123>but do not checkout the whole repository :p
14:56<planetmaker>jerker: get mercurial and get it all ;)
14:57<frosch123>when you search for stable releases, they are under 'tags'
14:59<jerker>problem is i cant faind r17500 (or whatever) that some servers are running, get version missmach. 0.6.3 etc are easy :)
15:00<jerker>s/faind/find/ s/missmach/missmatch/
15:00<frosch123>oh, so you do not want a release :) try 'svn co -r17500 svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk'
15:00<frosch123>but, err r17500 is in the future :p
15:02<planetmaker>:D
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15:02<jerker>frosch123: thanks! but now #openttdcoop is gone so there is no hurry..
15:03<jerker>*#openttdcoop PS*
15:03<planetmaker>jerker: you're searching for the version of our public server?
15:03<planetmaker>that's a nightly, which is even available as binary.
15:04<planetmaker>and if the server machine wasn't unreachable right now, it could even tell you the download location :)
15:04<jerker>planetmaker: well, yes. :)
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15:05<jerker>planetmaker: However, i tried the binaries, but my Ubuntu 7.10 didn't like the debian ones... (however the links from www.openttdcoop.org to the www.openttd.org seem to go wrong)
15:05<planetmaker>http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r14660/
15:07<planetmaker>jerker: then svn co -r14660 && ./configure && make
15:07<planetmaker>eh... the svn is missing an argument ;)
15:07<frosch123>but do not checkout the whole repository :p
15:07<planetmaker>:P
15:08<planetmaker>yeah... many antique branches in it ;)
15:08<jerker>planetmaker: Thanks.
15:11<planetmaker>you're welcome
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15:18<Terkhen>good night people
15:21<SmatZ>" Timing buffered disk reads: 4 MB in 3.54 seconds = 1.13 MB/sec" I guess something is wrong with my UDMA
15:21-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
15:21<frosch123>I guess you tested your network file system :p
15:21<SmatZ>:)
15:22<SmatZ>that's slow even for 100mbit ethernet :)
15:22<yorick>that's my average internet speed :p
15:22<valhallasw>fairly fast for 10mbit though ;)
15:23<valhallasw>my internet speed actually is faster ^__^
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15:25<Eddi|zuHause>1,äppelstücke MB/s are the typical rate when DMA is disabled
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>other signs are full processor usage during disk accesses
15:25<yorick>I still don't like the fact that they use "MB" to make it sound faster :p
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15:31<valhallasw>apples in my hard drive? :O
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15:44<yorick>why does my infrastructure sharing patch crash on desert maps saved by 0.6.3 with an oldpool assertion?
15:45<SmatZ>" Timing buffered disk reads: 230 MB in 3.00 seconds = 76.61 MB/sec" much better :)
15:45<SmatZ>now I understand why fsck took ~5 hours :-x
15:47<@Belugas>And I know that
15:47<@Belugas>the Messiah, he will come again
15:47<@Belugas>pom Pwiiiin pin pa poum...
15:47<SmatZ>huh
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: because the rich people in the deserts have too many pools
15:48-!-trainboy2004 [~trainboy2@cp734887-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has joined #openttd
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>hm... filling a 1TB disk via USB takes quite a while
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15:50<yorick>Eddi: aha, but I personally thought it was because icecream has no bones
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>also, you meant desertion...
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>why do all good series get canceled?
15:53<yorick>because canoes float?
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>warum, warum ist die banane krum?
15:54<frosch123>[21:54] <Eddi|zuHause> why do all good series get canceled? <- I can neither prove nor disprove that. There are no good series.
15:55<yorick>because they grow to the light
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, let's substitute "good" by "enjoyable"
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: you failed.
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: every child knows the answer to that one...
15:57<yorick>?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>even google knows it...
15:57*Belugas sends "Roy Buchanan - The Messiah Will Come again.mp3" to SmatZ
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>"weil niemand in den Urwald zog und die Banane gerade bog"
15:58<frosch123>no, google answers http://www.godal.com/
15:58<yorick>aha, bananas are negatively geo-tropic
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16:00<@Belugas>but full of potassium, which make them perfect if ever you are prone to cramps
16:00<@Belugas>and for the vicioous ones too, since you can PEAL them
16:00<@Belugas>PEEL?
16:00<@Belugas>PIIIIIL
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16:01<Eddi|zuHause>why can't you people call it Kalium, which is the element's REAL name?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>i mean you kept the element's symbol "K"...
16:03<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: That would make chemistry too easy.
16:03<yorick>because it isn't capitalized?
16:04<yorick>the name kalium is from the Arabic al-qali (potas)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes, all things created by god have to be capitalised
16:04<@Belugas>BECAUSE KALIUM IS AN OLD ARCHAIC FORM!
16:04<@Belugas>Grand-pa'
16:05<yorick>Eddi: All Your Words Were Supposedly Created By God
16:05<Prof_Frink>eddi|zuhause: so, nothing then.
16:05<yorick>Prof_Frink: I assume he means supposedly :)
16:06<Prof_Frink>of course, my name should be capitalised because I *am* god.
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>well, that was the rule mister Martin Luther went by.
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>the lord himself would be fully capitalised
16:06<yorick>...
16:07<@Belugas>YHWH
16:07<@Belugas>there you o
16:08<Prof_Frink>no, it's WYWH.
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, the "problem" is, that mister Marin Luther's publications coincided with the invention of mass book printing
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>so his way of spelling spread through entire germany
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>(for the uninitiated: he translated the bible into german)
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>(so for the first time in the history, the bible was directly accessible by ordinary people)
16:11-!-davis- [~suckyours@p5B28CC33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:11<@Belugas>Prof_Frink, it's now Why Where...
16:11<@Belugas>nor is it Yahoo
16:11<Prof_Frink>Belugas: Floyd.
16:11-!-Terkhen [~ircap@25.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit []
16:12<yorick>and now it's my fault
16:12<Prof_Frink>Of course.
16:13<@Belugas>SHIIIIINE OOOOOONNN YOUR CRAAAAAAAAAAAAZY DIAMOND
16:13<Prof_Frink>Quite.
16:14<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: we then should start calling it oxygenium and hydrogenium too ;)
16:14<planetmaker>but then I still remember my teachers quite confused face as I was talking about natrium with such vehemence...
16:15<planetmaker>... but no person knew what element to the heck I was referring to ;)
16:15<planetmaker>I'll have a soda on that ;)
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>what else would you call it?
16:16<Prof_Frink>Dave.
16:16<planetmaker>sodium is the English name... and was used in alchemy, too
16:16<Prof_Frink>Another good album.
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>but the symbol is Na as well...
16:17<planetmaker>sure it is :) That's why it didn't occur to me that I was talking nonsense until I was told :P
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>hehe ;)
16:18<frosch123>hmm, why does my element table contain the english names instead of the latin :s
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>damn i can absolutely not concentrate...
16:19<frosch123>yup, belugas is singing too loud :p
16:19<planetmaker>tralalalalaaa
16:20-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
16:20<planetmaker>Am Weihhhnaaachtsaaaauuumeee...
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>missing a b
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>and damn you for putting that melody in my mind
16:21<planetmaker>:P
16:21<planetmaker>lool
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>and i know all the melodies, but never the text to them...
16:21<@Belugas>frosch123 is jealousssseeeuh
16:22<planetmaker>same here, Eddi|zuHause ... :S
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>typical illness of an orchestra musician :p
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>you played the melody 100 times each year, but never with anybody singing
16:22<frosch123>Belugas: no, your quote was directly copied into the youtube bar of my browser :p
16:23<frosch123>well, no, I preceded it with "pink floyd" to avoid possible crap
16:23<Prof_Frink>Some openttd devs should go troll /. - There's an ask/. about free games
16:25-!-Zealotus [~Ping@78-69-54-150-no70.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:26<@Belugas>wanty a free game?
16:26<@Belugas>here's one
16:26<@Belugas>Guess who is the next one to be kicked!!!
16:26<Prof_Frink>Me!
16:26<Prof_Frink>!password
16:26*Rubidium assigns Prof_Frink to be the CSDTO
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>yorick!
16:26<Prof_Frink>Wait, what?
16:26<Prof_Frink>I'm still here
16:26-!-Prof_Frink was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [YOU WIN!!]
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16:27<@Belugas>youhou!!!
16:27<Prof_Frink>:D
16:27<Prof_Frink>Since when does !password not work?
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>since glx is not here
16:29<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: you better concentrate on that piece of text you have to write instead of summoning random people ;)
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16:33<frosch123>night
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16:40<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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16:43<Wolf01>'night
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16:49<planetmaker>night all
16:51<SmatZ>good night planetmaker :)
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17:01<@Belugas>tick
17:01<@Belugas>tock
17:01<@Belugas>tick
17:01<@Belugas>tock
17:01<@Belugas>Drrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiing!!
17:01<@Belugas>time to go :D
17:01<@Rubidium>bye bye ;)
17:01*Belugas waves good bye and rushes through the DoooR :)
17:01<@Belugas>bye Rubidium :D
17:02<SmatZ>bye bye Belugas :)
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17:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14678 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix [FS#2435]: gradual filling graphics were not chosen according to the NewGRF spec (Maedhros)
17:24<SmatZ>Maedhros!
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17:31<Nite_Owl>Does that effect already existing NewGrfs in any adverse way?
17:36<@Rubidium>depends on what you call adverse
17:37<Nite_Owl>like no gradual loading sprites being shown at all
17:37<@Rubidium>now it'll show the vehicle is full from (1 - (1 / number of graphics)) * 100 percent loaded
17:37<@Rubidium>instead of only when fully loaded
17:40<Nite_Owl>so if the vehicle set shows gradual loading now it will continue to show gradual loading with this change
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18:09<Eddi|zuHause>it shows exactly the same graphics as before... only the thresholds are balanced differently
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20:09<SpComb>looks like amiga builds of trunk are broken... missing ) in network/core.cpp, line 42
20:11<SpComb>http://vcs.openttd.org/hg/openttd/trunk.hg/annotate/4a880a6ab2ac/src/network/core/core.cpp#l42
20:11<SpComb>methinks there should be an extra ) at the end there, before the semicolon
20:16<Sacro>you should also update mercurial
20:16<Sacro>new web interface is shiny
20:20<SpComb>http://vcs.openttd.org/hg/openttd/trunk.hg/diff/d4d440dd8925/network.c#l155
20:21<SpComb>it's been broken since Tue Jun 27 21:25:53 2006 +0000 (2 years ago)
20:21<SmatZ>hehe
20:22<SpComb>but it shows up like a sore thumb when you look at core.cpp with syntax highlighting on :/
20:23<SpComb>does noone even read the network code anymore? :(
20:23<SmatZ>SpComb: http://paste.openttd.org/177922 does this help?
20:23<SpComb>I have no clue, I'm not compiling on Amiga, I was just reading the code
20:23<SmatZ>aha
20:23<SmatZ>:-P
20:24<SmatZ>r14671 changed core.cpp, and was very system-specific :)
20:24<SmatZ>errr network/core/host.cpp
20:25<SmatZ>I wonder if there is anyone compiling for amiga
20:25<SpComb>somehow I suspect they would have a very difficult time getting the code to compile
20:26<SpComb>yes, and the new host.cpp is still completely IPv6-oblivious
20:26<SpComb>using uint32's for IP addresses is... hrmph
20:27<SmatZ>OTTD works with IPv4
20:27<SmatZ>and not with IPv6
20:27<SpComb>indeed, I tried to fix that at one point
20:27<SmatZ>it was you? :)
20:27<SpComb>yes
20:27<SpComb>I wrote up a humoungous patch that would have never made it into trunk
20:28<SmatZ>:(
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: start out with a typedef for ip addresses
20:29<SpComb>yeah, I've realized that you really need to start small, and get the most important things working first
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>that would also have a high probability of making trunk, without any functionality change
20:30<SmatZ>last time I coded network code (not OTTD, ~1 year ago), there had to be different code for IPv6 and IPv4
20:30<SmatZ>because enum values, functions, used definitions etc. were different
20:30<SmatZ>I was working on a low level though
20:30<SpComb>I spent a couple hours today writing a NetworkSocket + NetworkAddress class, it should be fully IPv6-capable on linux, and there's not a single mention of AF_INET6 or AF_INET in the code
20:31<SpComb>it's a question of using the right APIs... `struct sockaddr_storage`, getaddrinfo, getnameinfo, etc
20:31<SpComb>although getting those to then work on other platforms as well might be a bit more of a pain
20:32<SpComb>but there's more changes than just the return type of NetworkResolveHost... with IPv6, 95% of hostnames these days have both an IPv6 address and an IPv4 address
20:33<SpComb>handling this a-hostname-can-have-multiple-addresses-thing is actually the biggest challenge
20:33<SpComb>you have to stick your connect() inside a for loop (after getaddrinfo)
20:33<SmatZ>IIRC gethostbyname() returns only IPv4 address
20:33<SmatZ>and only 1 address at a time
20:33<SmatZ>but my memory may have failed :)
20:33<SpComb>gethostbyname2 does IPv6, I guess, but yes, only one address at a time
20:34<SpComb>so changing all of the address types to IPv6-compatible types isn't really that big of an issue, but then there's not going to be any sensible dual-stack behaviour..
20:34<SpComb>it's either IPv6 or IPv4, never both, which is what you need for it to be useable
20:34<SpComb>then that goes all the way down to the masterserver protocol level :(
20:35<SpComb>and the MySQL database
20:35<SmatZ>getaddrinfo() :)
20:36<SpComb>yes, getaddrinfo is what gethostbyname (which is deprecated) should be replaced with
20:36<SpComb>but that doesn't solve the issue of the masterserver needing to store both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses for each server...
20:36<SpComb>so that's the problem that I tried to solve when I origionally worked on the IPv6 stuff, and it's not really surprising that that didn't really go anywhere then
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>make everything templated
20:37<SpComb>ITYM "rewrite the network code"
20:39<SmatZ>one problem is backward compatibility
20:39<SmatZ>if we want to compile at platforms that have no clue about IPv6
20:39<SpComb>on the network protocol?
20:39<SmatZ>like, not knowing about getaddrinfo()
20:40<SpComb>you mean portability, not backwards compatibility
20:40<SmatZ>err yes
20:40*SmatZ should go to bed ;-x
20:40<SpComb>that's just a question of hiding the implementation somewhere with a lot of #ifdefs... I think the hardest part is the testing
20:42<SpComb>but sleeping sounds like a good idea, I need to wake up some time way too soon
20:42<SmatZ>good night SpComb
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 16 00:00:40 2008