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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-12-20

---Logopened Sat Dec 20 00:00:20 2008
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03:41<George3:#openttd>Is any anybody here with KVIrc. I'm trying to configure it and I cant find where to specify messages filter. I do not want messages like "YYY has joined/quited the channel" and "YYY is now known as YYY2" to appear. I can't find the switch and help is not useful either :(
03:56<@petern:#openttd>often it's called conference mode
03:56<@petern:#openttd>however, those are normal messages that most people do not ever want to filter
03:56<@petern:#openttd>unless you have a specific YYY in mind, in which case just ignore YYY ;)
03:57<blathijs:#openttd>in irssie you can say /ignore -JOINS -PARTS -QUITS or something similar
03:58<@petern:#openttd>KVirc is a hideous looking program...
04:05<frosch123:#openttd>George3: do you have processing industries, that need different amounts of input cargo to produce one piece of output cargo, i.e. two units grains for one unit food
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04:06<George3:#openttd>Yes, a lot. For example, you need paper and dyes to produce goods at printing works (hope I understood you right)
04:06<frosch123:#openttd>no, i mean: is the production 1:1, e.g. 1 uint paper + 1 unit dyes = 1 unit goods
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04:07<OwenS:#openttd>Wrong channel :P
04:07<George3:#openttd>AFAIR, I do not use 1+1=1, I mostly use things like 7+1=6
04:08<George3:#openttd>meaning there is % of waste
04:09<frosch123:#openttd>ah, but I guess you always process multiples of 7 and stockpile remaining cargo
04:09<George3:#openttd>And AFAIR I never use them in 1:1
04:11<George3:#openttd>frosch123: That is correct for the old industries (that have 6 leves of production). For more modern code I simply make a calculation (production callback with registers).
04:12<George3:#openttd>There (in calculations) I use constructions like " amount of cargo 3 processed = min (level * ( max (year - 1920; 5) + 20) * base3=8 / 100; v42) in R2"
04:13<George3:#openttd>and like this "Calculate amount of Energy in R7, add to IR2. 1 ton of coal = 7.5 MW/h, 1000 litres of oil = 10.3 MW/h"
04:14<George3:#openttd>frosch123: And what do you want to understand with you question?
04:14<frosch123:#openttd> <- he uses input_cargo_multipliers instead of production callbacks
04:14<frosch123:#openttd>and those do not work at all :p
04:15<frosch123:#openttd>they do not stockpile remaining cargo, so when he needs 8 units of coal for 1 unit goods, and 15 units coal are delivered, it produces 1 unit of goods and throws 7 coal away
04:16<frosch123:#openttd>however, due to cargo packets and gradual loading the amount of cargo transferred to the industry in one step is usally in the range 1 to 5.
04:16<frosch123:#openttd>So never above 8, so it never produces anything :(
04:16<George3:#openttd>No, I do not use multipliers, they are always 0 in my GRFs, and if they are not 0 somewhere, than it is a bug :)
04:16<frosch123:#openttd>But it seems, that your grfs are not affected, when you stockpile remaining cargo
04:17<frosch123:#openttd>They are only active when not using production callbacks :)
04:17<frosch123:#openttd>I guess that is also the reason noone noticed the bug, as noone uses that properties :)
04:24<George3:#openttd>frosch123: I also set props 12, 13 to 0, because their production is added to production of production callback
04:24<frosch123:#openttd>I meant 1C, 1D and 1E
04:27<George3:#openttd>I know, but looks like they also affect production callback result (I mean it was like that long time ago when I was testing it, so I made a desision to set it 0 to prevent problems)
04:27<frosch123:#openttd>cannot hurt :)
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04:49<George__:#openttd>George, MIrc test
04:50<Forked:#openttd>george.. get irssi!
04:50<George:#openttd>wiki says it has no GUI :(
04:51<Forked:#openttd>it's what I love about it :)
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04:55<George:#openttd>I do not. KVIrc looks not bad, but configuring it looks like a pain :( It is the second day I try to do it without succes. I can't find how to filter (not display) useless messages and how to apply a spellchecker.
04:57<George:#openttd>ChatZilla, that had a big problem because it was not running well without firefox running, was rather good in configuring it.
05:03<Forked:#openttd>there is always something :\
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05:11<Wolf01:#openttd>hello :P
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05:35<edeca:#openttd>Is it possible to make consumers use goods faster, i.e. make a plantation use up fertiliser more quickly?
05:35<edeca:#openttd>I'm producing fertiliser like there is no tomorrow :|
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05:44<@petern:#openttd>find another consumer
05:44<@petern:#openttd>or drop production
05:45<edeca:#openttd>Drop production how?
05:45<edeca:#openttd>Less raw goods?
05:45<edeca:#openttd>I find that if I try to drop production, say by delivering less oil, I get bad ratings at the previous part of the industry chain and it all goes wrong ;)
05:46<edeca:#openttd>The new industries are a lot harder to manage (but it is much more fun)
05:46<xand:#openttd>whatever setting I choose for loading indicators to be displayed, they do not show at all for any games on this machine... is there a setting other than the one in configure patches -> interface?
05:47<xand:#openttd>in openttd.cfg I have loading_indicators = 2
05:48<frosch123:#openttd>there are also transparency options
05:48<xand:#openttd>bah, it's a transparency option... I wondered what that train icon in there did :)
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05:50<Terkhen:#openttd>good morning
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06:03<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14701 /trunk/ -Change: Debian's lintian complains about not using the best compression for compressing the man-page.
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06:52<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: frosch * r14702 /trunk/src/vehicle_base.h: -Documentation: Add a note about the meaning and validity of Vehicle::dest_tile.
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10:17<George:#openttd>glx: Hi, I'm trying to configure KVIrc and I can't do it well. I find where to switch off logging useless chanel information, but can't switch it off on the display. I made them white on white, but having lots of empty lines is not the best solution. I also found that I can specify their ratings, but I could not find a way to switch off displaying strings with 0 rating. Could you help me?
10:22<George:#openttd>glx: Are you here? Looks like you are the only one with KVIrc here :(
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10:29<xand:#openttd>why does fast forward turn off if you switch away from openttd and back again?
10:29<@Rubidium:#openttd>because someone thought that'd be useful?
10:30<xand:#openttd>or I should say, it *sometimes* does that
10:30<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: frosch * r14703 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_road.cpp: -Fix (r8735): [YAPF] YapfRoadVehDistanceToTile() shall not abort searching at v->dest_tile, when it in fact tries to reach another tile.
10:33<@Rubidium:#openttd>what os?
10:33<@Rubidium:#openttd>and what version of OTTD and the os?
10:34<xand:#openttd>oh, alt-tab turns it off, but using hte mouse doesn't... linux/fluxbox/openttd 0.6.3
10:36<frosch123:#openttd>does it also happen when you press alt before tab, and release alt after tab
10:37<xand:#openttd>I see tab key seems to be momentary fast forward
10:37<frosch123:#openttd>intended :)
10:37<@petern:#openttd>people actually press alt and tab together?
10:38<xand:#openttd>I hold alt and press tab, then let both go
10:38<benjamingoodger:#openttd>er, yes, it's a "switch to most recently focused window" shortcut on most WMs
10:38<@Rubidium:#openttd>apparantly something tells that tab is pressed and alt isn't
10:38<@petern:#openttd>benjamingoodger, yes
10:39<@petern:#openttd>benjamingoodger, but i meant as opposed to pressing (and holding) alt and then pressing tab
10:39<benjamingoodger:#openttd>what, tab-alt?
10:39<xand:#openttd>that's what I do... sometimes I must release alt more quickly than others :P
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10:57<George:#openttd>If I specify for industry tile that it has no animation, build the industry, save the game, and then change the GRF (add the animation to the tile), would a tile have anomation next time I load a game with updated GRF?
10:58<frosch123:#openttd>you have to start the animation somewhen
10:59<George:#openttd>witch callback 25?
11:00<frosch123:#openttd>any of those animation callbacks which are triggered on cargo delivery or 256-ticks stuff.
11:00<frosch123:#openttd>just the one on industry-creation is not sufficient :)
11:01<frosch123:#openttd>yes, 25
11:02<George:#openttd>would it take much CPU?
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11:03<George:#openttd>Also, if specify prop 0F (animation) to FFFF (no animation) and then return FE 80 with callback 25, should animation run?
11:04<George:#openttd>frosch123: I mean would running callback 25 take much CPU (do you remember the table you send me?)
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11:05<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>hm... this more height level thing is a nice idea, but it does not seem ready yet...
11:05<George:#openttd>Callbacks during one month
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 28 2,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 22 4,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 29 49,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 17 165,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 143 611,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 30 857,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 2f 1 851,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 2e 8 641,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 3b 8 810,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 35 9 029,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x real sprite 157 213,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x random trigger 2 108 791,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 26 28 554 063,00
11:05<George:#openttd>0x 27 66 347 512,00
11:06<frosch123:#openttd>prop 0F is 'fund cost' for me :)
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11:06<George:#openttd>frosch123: we are speaking about industry tiles. wiki sais "Animation information (0F)"
11:06<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>2 million seems better than the what? 66million? it was before
11:07<frosch123:#openttd>oh, hehe, and I was wondering why industries do not have animation :p
11:08<George:#openttd>frosch123: I'm tring to reduce usage of CBs 26 and 27.
11:08<frosch123:#openttd>just setting property 0F will not start animation in a running game. the callback is of course expensive compared to only using prop 0F
11:09<frosch123:#openttd>but it is not nearly as expensive as callback 27
11:12<George:#openttd>so, summery: I can set prop 0F to FFFF, and than later I can change it to FF 01. All, I need to run animation is CB 25.
11:12<George:#openttd>that means prop 0F is not stored in the save
11:12<frosch123:#openttd>at least I would be surprised :)
11:12<George:#openttd>Only animation state (running / stoped) is
11:13<George:#openttd>newly build industries would not need CB 25
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11:16<frosch123:#openttd>hmm, I guess when you set property 0F to FFFF, you cannot start animation
11:18<George:#openttd>If it stored in save - yes. But if not - a new GRF would provide a new value FF 01 for prop 0F of the tile and new value for prop 11(CB 25 triggers), so animation should (as I understand it) start
11:19<George:#openttd>The Idea is - to remove all unused things from GRFs now and add them later when they are used
11:19<frosch123:#openttd>property 0F is not stored in the savegame. changing it by changing newgrf will not start animation for existing industries. setting it to FFFF will more or less stop the animation
11:19<George:#openttd>this would reduce CPU usage now
11:19<frosch123:#openttd>maybe the last part is incorrect behaviour
11:20<frosch123:#openttd>ohoh, yes, the last part looks very incorrect, as it would continue with the animation of original industries (which will break certain stuff) :p
11:21<George:#openttd>frosch123: I understood that it would not, but as you said CB 25 can save it, all I need is too redefine prop 11 (hope it is not stored too)
11:21<frosch123:#openttd>no property is stored
11:22<George:#openttd>frosch123: And what do you suggest? Currently, there is animation specified, but in fact no animation is provided.
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11:22<frosch123:#openttd>what do you mean by 'animation specified'
11:24<George:#openttd>prop 0F is set to FF 01 and 0E to 55
11:25<frosch123:#openttd>had those property already the value, when the industries were constructed?
11:25<George:#openttd>FF 01 and 55
11:25<frosch123:#openttd>then animation is running
11:25<frosch123:#openttd>btw. that is also a performance impact, when you start animation, which is not used
11:26<George:#openttd>Yes, that is what I mean 'animation specified'
11:26<George:#openttd>I understand, that is why I want to remove it
11:27<frosch123:#openttd>so, actually you do not want to start animation, but you want to stop animation when switching the grf
11:28<George:#openttd>In the early days I used animation as data storage instead of industry registers. Than industry registers were provided, I started to use them, but animation remained.
11:28<George:#openttd>I want to stop them now and restart it in the future, when new animation is provided
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11:29<George:#openttd>so, 1) whould changing prop 0F to FF FF stop animation ( I suppose it should) in the current state
11:30<George:#openttd>2) would cnaging prop 0F to FF 01 in the future would allow to start it with CB 25
11:30<frosch123:#openttd>no, you can only stop it using cb 25
11:31<frosch123:#openttd>and currently setting prop 0F to FFFF in a running game, seems to even break it :s
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11:32<George:#openttd>Do you mean that setting 0F to FF 01 and providing CB 25 is the best solution?
11:32<George:#openttd>So, now I should use CB 25 to stop it and later to start it
11:33<frosch123:#openttd>at least that should work
11:35<George:#openttd>And that would save some CPU usage, right, because animation is stoped
11:35<frosch123:#openttd>yes, a lot
11:37<George:#openttd>Thank you, I'll try to do it. Could you create a ottd executable for me (for win32) that provides CB usage table like you send me?
11:37<frosch123:#openttd>for win, no I can't
11:39<George:#openttd>A pity :( Well, when I shall finish the work may I send you GRFs and you provide me a new table with testing results at the same conditions?
11:40<George:#openttd>BTW, for prop 11 is 04 the least CPU using value?
11:44<frosch123:#openttd>04 means all industries every 3.5 days
11:44<frosch123:#openttd>don't know how often industries are delivered in the average game
11:45<George:#openttd>it may happen that never, and than animation would stay, that is not good, because we need to stop it
11:47<frosch123:#openttd>also true :)
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12:09<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: frosch * r14704 /trunk/src/core/smallvec_type.hpp: -Codechange: Add set capabilities to SmallVector.
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12:18<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i could not see it
12:19<George:#openttd>smile what sybol do you see before smile?
12:19<mrfrenzy:#openttd>] on white background
12:19<George:#openttd>Do you see anything in the bracets ( )
12:20<mrfrenzy:#openttd>same thing and a whitespace
12:20<George:#openttd>what thing?
12:20<mrfrenzy:#openttd>I suggest you get yourself another client and join a testchannel
12:20<mrfrenzy:#openttd>inverted ]
12:21<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: frosch * r14705 /trunk/src/economy.cpp:
12:21<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2460]: First transfer the whole load of a vehicle chain to industries before triggering any processing.
12:21<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: This reduces callback usage and resolves critical rounding errors when using input-cargo-multipliers instead of production callbacks.
12:21<George:#openttd>I alrady have. And I see something like Ú there
12:22<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>then you need to enable utf-8 support
12:22<+glx:#openttd>George: I see a bell
12:22<George:#openttd>frosch123: FS2460 - and what will happen if industry stops accepting cargo during this process?
12:22<mrfrenzy:#openttd>or you should just stop sending utf-chars with this client
12:22<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>my font does not have that symbol
12:22<mrfrenzy:#openttd>since 30% of all clients can't see them anyways
12:23<valhallasw:#openttd>well, those clients pretty much suck :P
12:23<mrfrenzy:#openttd>still, 100% of clients can see this: ]
12:23<George:#openttd>glx: I know you see it right, you have the same client.
12:23<mrfrenzy:#openttd>which is iso-8859
12:23<mrfrenzy:#openttd>so just configure your client to send a variant of that
12:23<+glx:#openttd>George: emotes are client specific
12:23<frosch123:#openttd>George: it behaved like that before :)
12:23<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>mrfrenzy: the topic once said that this channel prefers UTF-8
12:24<George:#openttd>mrfrenzy: I do not ;) , use :)
12:24<valhallasw:#openttd>UFT-8 over iso-8859
12:24<mrfrenzy:#openttd>George: I sent you a bracket, not a smiley
12:24<mrfrenzy:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: maybe it changed it's mind, cause I can't see it ;)
12:24<mrfrenzy:#openttd>since when does channels have preferences btw
12:24<valhallasw:#openttd>more importantly, the ] is shared in all iso-8859-* charsets /and/ utf-8
12:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>it is mind?
12:25<George:#openttd>frosch123: what do you mean?
12:25<valhallasw:#openttd>mrfrenzy: well, look closer
12:25<valhallasw:#openttd>"UTF-8 please"
12:25<mrfrenzy:#openttd>yes, in order to have preferences it must have some kind of consciousness
12:25<mrfrenzy:#openttd>valhallasw: well that is way too far to the end to fit in my terminal ;)
12:25<mrfrenzy:#openttd>I see it now typing /topic
12:26<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>mrfrenzy: "one person is intelligent, large groups of persons are stupid"?
12:26<George:#openttd>frosch123: with gradual loading/unloading it should leave the station partly unloaded if undustry do not accept cargo any more, isn't it?
12:26<+glx:#openttd>mrfrenzy: we want to be able to write things like ばか
12:27<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i need glasses for those...
12:27*valhallasw:#openttd switches font
12:27<mrfrenzy:#openttd>Irssi: Added oftc/openttd/UTF-8 to conversion database
12:27<George:#openttd>mrfrenzy: And like this "Ïðèâåòñâóåì Âàñ!", but how do you see them?
12:27<mrfrenzy:#openttd>there ya go, from now on I type utf-8 in here
12:27<mrfrenzy:#openttd>yes I do George
12:27<frosch123:#openttd>George: that did not work properly before, does not work now, and does - to my knowledge - not work in TTDP either
12:27<mrfrenzy:#openttd>but my font does not have the chars glx typed
12:28<mrfrenzy:#openttd>I can write stuff like ¨'äåö!"#¤"#%#¤/&%)/~=()=@£$.{[]}\§½|< though
12:28<George:#openttd>mrfrenzy: my has
12:28<mrfrenzy:#openttd>and you should probably see it
12:28<Sacro:#openttd>hmm, I don't think I had utf8 in screen
12:28<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>George: we do not see those signs correctly unless you switch to UTF-8
12:28<Sacro:#openttd>try again :p
12:29<mrfrenzy:#openttd>I can see them correctly, since my irssi can read both iso and utf
12:29<George:#openttd>I supposed I switched it on :S
12:29<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>mrfrenzy: there are a lot of different "iso" charsets
12:29<Sacro:#openttd>it can read "iso"?
12:29<mrfrenzy:#openttd>I am too backwards to change my terminals to utf though, so I will only see characters that exist in iso8859-15 that irssi can convert for me
12:29<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>and only ever one can be automatically detected
12:29<Sacro:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: are any useful?
12:29<Sacro:#openttd>i use ascii and utf8
12:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Sacro: they are useful, as long as you do not need to switch between locales
12:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>a russian (eastern european) iso charset is not useful in a german (western european) locale
12:31<valhallasw:#openttd>the iso-* charsets have the same lower 128 characters and locale-specific upper 128 characters
12:31<+glx:#openttd>я не говорю по русски
12:32<mrfrenzy:#openttd>is what I get ;)
12:32<George:#openttd>Can you read it now? Ïðèâåòñòâóåì Âàñ
12:32<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>glx's russian i can read, George's not
12:32<mrfrenzy:#openttd>I can still read you fine George
12:32<George:#openttd>glx: I can't read your text
12:33<George:#openttd>it is "я не говорю по русски"
12:33<George:#openttd>Looks like UTF in Win1251 for me
12:33<valhallasw:#openttd>George: get your client to interpret the text as UTF-8...
12:33<+glx:#openttd>it's utf8
12:33<George:#openttd>I supposed I did it
12:34<+glx:#openttd>George: on top of the channel there's a button with a "japanese" char
12:34<mrfrenzy:#openttd>you also need to get your terminal to use utf8
12:34<+glx:#openttd>click on it and select utf8
12:34<mrfrenzy:#openttd>to see his strange chars
12:34<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>the most common utf-8 characters in german are äöüß
12:35<George:#openttd>glx: I have it in our private cat but not here
12:35<+glx:#openttd>press the little arrow above user list
12:35<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>with their upper case equivalents (ÄÖÜ), only ß has no upper case equivalent
12:35<George:#openttd>Thank you. Please one more test
12:36<+glx:#openttd>я не говорю по русски
12:36<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>€ <- if that is an euro sign for you, it was successful
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12:36<George:#openttd>Thank you, it works now. BTW, you do, because you made a russian text :lol:
12:36<George:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: it is
12:36<valhallasw:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: heh. well, there is some discussion about /that/
12:37<valhallasw:#openttd>although SS /is/ considered the upper-case equivalent for most
12:38<+tokai:#openttd>using UTF on IRC is evil :)
12:38<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>valhallasw: no, it's an alternate spelling
12:39<George:#openttd>tokai: Why?
12:39<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>kind of an "emergency fallback", when no äöüß is available, you may replace those by ae, oe, ue, ss
12:39<George:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: true
12:39<valhallasw:#openttd>yes, of course
12:39<valhallasw:#openttd>but without capital-ß it's not really a /fallback/, is it? ;)
12:40<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>those are generally understood and percieved correct, but possibly bad style
12:40<valhallasw:#openttd>but it is included in the unicode character set
12:40<valhallasw:#openttd>U+1E9E (ẞ)
12:40<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>there were attempts to introduce an upper case ß, but they did not spread
12:41<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>ß generally does not appear at the beginning of a word, so there is usually not a reason to have it uppercase, except when you write in all caps
12:41<+tokai:#openttd>George: <- read character encoding paragraph to get some insight into problematic
12:41<@petern:#openttd>it's only a problem for those who don't want to change
12:42<@petern:#openttd>and those whose OSes probably don't support it :p
12:42<valhallasw:#openttd>there is no reason /at all/ *not* to use UTF-8
12:42<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>tokai: it's definitely better than having to deal with different iso locales
12:42<valhallasw:#openttd>it's not like utf-8 is new or something like that...
12:42<SpComb:#openttd>valhallasw: apart from the fact that other people don't use it
12:42<+tokai:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: sure
12:42<SpComb:#openttd>it's very annoying on e.g. IRCNet where people have channels with non-ascii chars in the name
12:42<+tokai:#openttd>even better is to avoid any non-ascii chars:)
12:43<@Rubidium:#openttd>and to avoid [\]{|}
12:43<SpComb:#openttd>so you join #böö, but it's a different #böö from where all the ISO 8859-1 -using people are
12:43<valhallasw:#openttd>SpComb: yeah, well, bad luck for them...
12:44<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>those are easily avoidable, if the servers would enforce "identifier" rules for channel names
12:44<SpComb:#openttd>the RFC doesn't mandate channel names to be ascii-only :)
12:44<@petern:#openttd>tokai, that's almost like benjamingoodger's statement that translating the game into non-english is a waste of time...
12:44<SpComb:#openttd>it does for nicknames, though
12:44<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i.e. only contain a-z,A-Z,_,0-9
12:44<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>and may not start with a number
12:44<valhallasw:#openttd>please join channel 0 ;)
12:44<George:#openttd>tokai: that page sais UTF-8 is the best :)
12:44*valhallasw:#openttd runs
12:45<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>valhallasw: i tried that once, but my client actually joined channel
12:45<+tokai:#openttd>petern: translating a game is a waste of time and usually degrades the quality (the source language can be anything different than english too)
12:45*Rubidium:#openttd votes for banning tokai whenever he uses a character that is not supported in the same way by *all* of the encodings mentioned in the IRC#Character_encoding webpage
12:46<+tokai:#openttd>I don't mind getting banned :)
12:46<valhallasw:#openttd>"The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) requires all Internet protocols to identify the encoding used for character data, and the supported character encodings must include UTF-8.[2]"
12:46<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i don't remember tokai even talking during the past year :p
12:46<+tokai:#openttd>I always talk when you're not here usually. :)
12:47<+tokai:#openttd>but back to topic...
12:47<George:#openttd>back on topic means FS2460?
12:48<+tokai:#openttd>petern: f.ex. there are quite some japanese games I wished to be able to get with original language rather than with degraded english dub :) As example. Original language always should be a choice.. like OpenTTD does it, f.ex. that's fine:)
12:48<+tokai:#openttd>there are some style guide problems in the english strings though :)
12:50<George:#openttd>I think it would be nice that vehicle would stop unloading if industry does not accept cargo any more. How a fix for FS2460 works in that case (industry stops accepting cargo during unloading process)
12:50<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>translations do not necessarily need to be a degration from the original language
12:51<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>especially if the translated language has a rich set of vocabulary, and the translator is a little more creative than just tansferring words
12:52<frosch123:#openttd>George: the acceptance callback is called just like before, just the production callback is not called in between
12:52<+glx:#openttd>the translator should know the game too
12:52<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>translation usually is a problem when the game/movie/whatever depends on style and other language features
12:53<George:#openttd>frosch123: What? If I have a very long train and very low unloading speed (like 1 unit) it will stop production callback?
12:53<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>what is easily lost are plays on words that sound similar, because those usually do not sound similar in the target language
12:54<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>cultural references are occasionally lost, if the cultures are different, too
12:54<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but with increasing globalisation, those are of increasingly smaller issues
12:54<@Rubidium:#openttd>i.e. basically all jokes
12:54<frosch123:#openttd>No, when gradual loading is enabled it transfers small amounts of cargo to the industry, which accepts it. After that is done for all wagons, the production callback is called
12:55<frosch123:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: see the "fahre/fliege/gehe" discussion on forums
12:56<frosch123:#openttd>problems arise when certain languages need more context to decide cases than other languages do
12:56<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>frosch123: i know, i took part in it... but that is not directly a translation problem, it is a problem with the grammar engine not being complex enough
12:56<George:#openttd>frosch123: and if a smaller train would upload cargo first production would happen for it first, and than for the first very long train?
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12:57<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>frosch123: i once wanted to investigate in how far the case-system can help there, but i do not have that kind of time
12:57<@Rubidium:#openttd>but you have the time to talk about it for hours...
12:58<frosch123:#openttd>George: I do not see the relation, but I also do not understand the question
12:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>making 3 posts in the forum and 2 sentences here means "hours" for you?
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12:59<@Rubidium:#openttd>s/it/it and other things/?
12:59<frosch123:#openttd>fs#1460 causes the on-delivery-production-callback to be called once per train, instead of for every gradual loading step of every cargopacket of every wagon
12:59<frosch123:#openttd>the acceptance callback is called like before
13:00<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Rubidium: it's called "taking a break" ;)
13:00<frosch123:#openttd>so as long as the acceptance callback does not modify persistent storage registers, and expects the production callback to be called immediatelly, nothing changes
13:01<frosch123:#openttd>but I guess, when you would have done that, it would not have worked before either. plus you would encounter certain ttdp/ottd differences
13:01<George:#openttd>frosch123: Imagine. 2 trains - very long and very short arives for unloading. A very long comes first. A short train comes second, but unloads first. The question is - would the industry process cargo from the short train before long train?
13:02<frosch123:#openttd>the first train is processed first
13:02<@Rubidium:#openttd>the time a train arrives is the time it starts (un)loading first
13:03<@Rubidium:#openttd>so it is impossible for a train to come second but unload first
13:03<frosch123:#openttd>and the whole cargo is transferred as much as accepted before it is completely unloaded
13:03<George:#openttd>so, the cargo from the second train would wait untiil cargo from the first train is processed?
13:03<frosch123:#openttd>i.e. when you interrupt unloading cargo (e.g. by sending a train to a depot) the industry already got the cargo, that is still on the vehicles
13:04<George:#openttd>Rubidium: Do you man 2 trains can't unload at the same time?
13:04<frosch123:#openttd>luckily the cargo knows that it is already delivered, so you cannot deliver it twice :)
13:04<@Rubidium:#openttd>George: that heavily depends on how you define unloading
13:04<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>George: trains can unload in the same tick, but still one would be treated first
13:05<@Rubidium:#openttd>as unloading in my book is a while (cargo in vehicle) { real_unload "load amount"; wait a while }
13:05<George:#openttd>unloading is a PROCESS (happens during a period of time) when cargo is transfered between the vehicle and station
13:05<frosch123:#openttd>George: just do a testgame. you can see, the the whole cargo amount is stockpiled, when the train arrives. after that the load of the cargo gradually decreases, but the industry already got everything
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13:06<George:#openttd>frosch123: Is it intended that way?
13:06<frosch123:#openttd>at least TTDP and OTTD agree on that :)
13:07<frosch123:#openttd>but it does not make a real difference
13:08<frosch123:#openttd>George: you can compare it with the income animation, you get the whole income when the train arrives, and not multiple small amounts of income
13:09<George:#openttd>I see, I'm thinking about how bad it is :S
13:10<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>it's basically the same as without gradual loadding
13:10<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>so gradual loading only affects how long the train is waiting and how that is displayed
13:10<George:#openttd>The qusetion is - if the industry has limited stockpile, it would be nice to unload only the part of the cargo that is accepts and leave the rest in the vehicle
13:11<frosch123:#openttd>but remember, the acceptance callback is called in multiple steps. but they are all called at the same time on arrival, and not when you visually see the vehicle load decrease
13:11<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>afair the "overdelivered" cargo is left at the station, and may be reloaded by the vehicle
13:12<frosch123:#openttd>when you do not add any unloading flags it remains in the vehicle
13:12<frosch123:#openttd>no wrong
13:12<frosch123:#openttd>it depends :)
13:13<frosch123:#openttd>the "station acceptance" is delayed by up to 3.5 days
13:13<frosch123:#openttd>so when the station still accepts the cargo, it is delivered to valhalla
13:13<George:#openttd>frosch123: As I understand you, if a station accepts cargo when vehicle starts to unload the first unit of cargo, it will accept all the cargo in the train, right?
13:14<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>so what's valhalla doing with all the coal?
13:15<frosch123:#openttd>at least you are paied for the whole
13:15<frosch123:#openttd>under which conditions it remains in the train is a bit a mystery also to myself :)
13:18<George:#openttd>frosch123: :) then what should happen when the second train arrives to the station, which does not accept cargo any more - leaves it with cargo, while the first one is unloading
13:19<frosch123:#openttd>well the first train will stop unloading, when the station stops accepting
13:20<frosch123:#openttd>I guess it also stops unloading, though its cargo was delivered :p
13:20<George:#openttd>But you said it already unloaded all the cargo to the industry and got paid?
13:20<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>maybe there is some additional logic required ;)
13:21<George:#openttd>so, what should than happen with that cargo, that is already unloaded, but is still in train?
13:21<frosch123:#openttd>yup, when the train arrives, all cargo is converted to imaginary cargo :)
13:21<frosch123:#openttd>you can then move, load and unload it everywhere as you like
13:22<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>"you already signed for recieving, i can now drive off with what i still have in the wagon" :p
13:22<frosch123:#openttd>hmm, I wonder what happens when you delete the stations :s
13:23<George:#openttd>so I can deliver it to somewhere else and get paid twice? Looks like a bug :)
13:23<frosch123:#openttd>no, the imaginary cargo knows that it is imaginary
13:23<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>maybe, during gradual unloading, you should assign target industries to each cargo packets
13:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>and then you unload only those which have a target industry set
13:24<svippy:#openttd>Uh, I forgot to ask how to fix this lib issue.
13:24<George:#openttd>but does it take place in the train and has weight?
13:24<svippy:#openttd>./openttd: error while loading shared libraries: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
13:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>svippy: well, install libicu
13:24<+glx:#openttd>or compile openttd yourself
13:25<svippy:#openttd>I am going for glx's solution.
13:25<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>which os is that, anyway?
13:25<svippy:#openttd>Slackware, specifically.
13:26<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>if you don't speak persian or hebrew, you probably won't miss it :p
13:26<svippy:#openttd>:p Well, I can't - unfortunately.
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13:28<frosch123:#openttd>ah, I see, you can transfer the cargo everywhere you want and it will be accepted at stations as usual, but you won't be paid twice, and it won't be transferred to industries twice
13:31<George:#openttd>frosch123: Then it looks like a bug that there is something in my train, that uses train space, reduces train speed, and can't make me any profit. It should be throwed away ASAP :)
13:31<frosch123:#openttd>you can disable that bug by disabling gradual loading :p
13:32<George:#openttd>:) may be we should find a better way for it?
13:33<@Rubidium:#openttd>what's a bigger bug is that you can unload in a very short time and then let the train leave and it magically loses it's contents
13:33<frosch123:#openttd>yeah, the user can at least decice which bug he prefers :)
13:34<frosch123:#openttd>sounds like democracy
13:34<George:#openttd>:) :)
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13:38<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: translators * r14706 /trunk/src/lang/ (finnish.txt indonesian.txt latvian.txt):
13:38<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-12-20 18:37:49
13:38<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: finnish - 17 changed by UltimateSephiroth (17)
13:38<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: indonesian - 81 changed by fanioz (81)
13:38<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: latvian - 137 fixed, 123 changed by peerer (260)
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13:44<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>hm... for once a translation message that is not truncated ;)
13:48<frosch123:#openttd>learn some languages and you can change that
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13:50<zircu:#openttd>finally got to irc, i have to thank the people providing this network at first
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13:52<zircu:#openttd>an then a thanks to everyone making this all happen
13:52<zircu:#openttd>i'm addictated to the game :)
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14:03<yorick:#openttd>frosch123: I'd like to translate openttd to dutch :p
14:04<frosch123:#openttd>I do not
14:05<frosch123:#openttd>yorick: you can do frisian if you like
14:06<yorick:#openttd>I don't speak frisian
14:06<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i could try dutch, but you would not be fond of the result :p
14:06<yorick:#openttd>it's quite horrible now...
14:06<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>at best it would sound like a parody of rudi carell :p
14:07<yorick:#openttd>and inconsistent
14:07<yorick:#openttd>"laat zien" vs "toon"
14:09<yorick:#openttd>and too much spaces on places they shouldn't be, capitalizing all kinds of stuff that shouldn't, plural errors with "player"
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14:10<benjamingoodger:#openttd>petern: no member of this channel is ever, _ever_ going to let that go, are they?
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14:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, that's your own fault :p
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14:25<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yorick: well, nobody prevents you from fixing it
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14:32<jow:#openttd>I wonder whether there's a possibility to run openttd with 5160x1024 resolution in xinerama. When I use a manual resolution by dragging the window borders, the image is capped on the right display and about one third remains black within the window borders. Are there some maximum constants in the source which I could tweak?
14:34<Progman:#openttd>you really dont want to scroll on 1024^2 maps, want you? *g*
14:35<jow:#openttd>hehe, you got me ;)
14:35<jow:#openttd>it's a 2048^2 map :)
14:37<@petern:#openttd>jow, use a nightlky
14:37<jow:#openttd>petern: allright, thanks. Will compile from trunk now
14:39<yorick:#openttd>Eddi: it wouldn't go into trunk
14:41<frosch123:#openttd>yorick: read first paragraph on
14:41<frosch123:#openttd>you can also read the news page if you like
14:43<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>jow: use a nightly, big resoltuions are possible there
14:44<mrfrenzy:#openttd>Is it possibly to zoom a lot? I don't care if it gets blocky
14:46<jow:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause, petern: thanks guys, works perfect :) The long openttd night can start, need to fill that 2048^2 map :P
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14:56<yorick:#openttd>frosch123: I prefr just to submit patches
14:57<yorick:#openttd>and they "didn't need another translator"
14:58<frosch123:#openttd>Dutch: fully translated
14:58<yorick:#openttd>yeah, but the translation is ugly
14:58<yorick:#openttd>things like "Players List"
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15:08<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>luckily, "Spieler" is the same singular and plural ;)
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15:27<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: frosch * r14707 /trunk/src/ (ai/trolly/pathfinder.cpp aystar.h npf.cpp): -Cleanup: Replace an 'int' by 'Trackdir'.
15:28<@petern:#openttd>you replace with, not by
15:30<frosch123:#openttd>hmm, yes. as usual two words in english, one in my language. at least I did not use 'at'
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15:44<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14708 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Change: update a few urls and fix some small errors/missing things in a few documents.
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16:48<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Hello all
16:51<George:#openttd>frosch123: I small question. If callback 25 fails (real sprite return), what should happen? Same as FE 80?
16:52<George:#openttd>or it acts as FD 80?
16:52<frosch123:#openttd>FD 80
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16:55<frosch123:#openttd>night everyone
16:55<frosch123:#openttd>night Wolf :p
16:55<@Rubidium:#openttd>night frosch123
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17:10<zircu:#openttd>how active is this channel?
17:12<zircu:#openttd>and how should i present my issues here
17:12<zircu:#openttd>scren shots?
17:14<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>mental transmission
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>bääh... argh... ihh... i got caught by a .jpg screenshot again... they are so horrible...
17:20<Nite_Owl:#openttd>zircu: Try explaining your problem - if anyone can help they will answer
17:24<zircu:#openttd>Nite_Owl: yeah i dont have a big problem, just would like to hang out and look at what i am doing is wrong
17:24<zircu:#openttd>i am always looking for the best solution at hand with mhy tracks
17:25<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Have you gone through the screenshot thread at the TT Forums? I learned more from that then from anyplace else.
17:27<zircu:#openttd>i'm workign on r14657 on the mac version and may have a suggestion but need to ensure i'm doing things correctly
17:27<zircu:#openttd>yeah i've been through that
17:28<fjb:#openttd>There is not one correct way. Find your style and have fun.
17:28<zircu:#openttd>i'm not exactly who is really ivolved
17:29<zircu:#openttd>fjb yeah but i think we can help things out
17:29<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>zircu: how about you tell us what you _REALLY_ want to ask
17:29<zircu:#openttd>i guess it would help if i could provid a screen shot
17:31<zircu:#openttd>well i have a 4 way interesetion (over bridges), the outer briges are slower than than the inner brigde
17:32<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>it's really nice of you to have that.
17:33<zircu:#openttd>what i was thining I have X and Y bridges, if a train only go X spead it will tak that one, if Y spead it will take that one
17:35<zircu:#openttd>the logic on deciding on what trak to do.. i have my passanger go right though my my fieght cargo go on the alternate path
17:36<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>that won't work
17:36<zircu:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: how so?
17:37<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>the pathfinder must give path penalties for all trains equally, otherwise the values cannot be cached
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17:38<zircu:#openttd>would it help if i gave you a sceen shot?
17:38<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>there were attempts for "routing restictions" like speed limits and stuff
17:39<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you should probably just use waypoints
17:39<zircu:#openttd>i started to use that but not all tains use the way point that i add (goods)
17:40<Nite_Owl:#openttd>You have to add the waypoint to a trains orders
17:40<zircu:#openttd> but somtimes the passger trains use that same path'
17:41<+michi_cc:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: yapf doesn't cache the path for the first segments so it is possible to have limited train based penalties
17:41<yorick:#openttd>he talked! || it doesn't?!
17:41<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>michi_cc: yes, but i wasn't going to explain that in great detail :p
17:43<+michi_cc:#openttd>simply introducing a configurable bridge speed penalty might be enough, right now the penalty is fixed and not very high
17:44<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, you need a penalty for >= and <= max speed
17:44<@Rubidium:#openttd>that'd suck when bridge speed == max speed of train
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17:45<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you just add both :p
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18:09<+michi_cc:#openttd>something like this perhaps: (untested)
18:13<@petern:#openttd>i hope everyone's cut & paste works :D
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19:00<George:#openttd>Belugas wrote that house ID is extended byte, and I could use it in cation 0
19:00<George:#openttd> 1323 * 50 00 07 12 01 FF B1 00
19:00<George:#openttd>but when I try to define its' graphics with action 3, I get a problem.
19:00<George:#openttd>//!!Warning (142): <num-cid> must be 0 for this feature.
19:00<George:#openttd>//!!Fatal Error (42): Length does not match n-id and num-cid of 01 and B1. (Expected 538 bytes)
19:00<George:#openttd> 1362 * 9 03 07 01 FF B1 00 00 FE 00
19:00<George:#openttd>What am I doing wrong?
19:01<@petern:#openttd>nforenum won't understand it
19:05<George:#openttd>I'd like to see Dale on-line :S
19:10<George:#openttd>I've assembled it without NFORenum and it does not work. House does not get new graphics.
19:12<Wolf01:#openttd>'night :o
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20:03<a2k:#openttd>is there any way to disable version check in network play?
20:04<Vikthor:#openttd>Why would you want to do so?
20:04<Vikthor:#openttd>The game will desync very fast if you have different versions
20:05<a2k:#openttd>i want to play on my home server using my internet tablet. but openttd for maemo is only 0.6.0 version :(
20:05<Vikthor:#openttd>just install 0.6.0 on your server
20:06<a2k:#openttd>i also want to play on this server with my friends who use 0.6.3
20:08<Vikthor:#openttd>you can install openttd into different directories and it should work
20:09<a2k:#openttd>i'll need to manualy compile it to do that
20:09<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>then you will have to do that
20:10<Vikthor:#openttd>hmm 2 am here, I wish you good night
20:10<a2k:#openttd>so it can be much better to compile 0.6.3 for maemo
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21:32<Feletacion:#openttd>Asians, Whites, Amerindians, and Mestizos are descended from extraterrestrials who mixed with anthropoids and Neanderthals. Niggggers really did solely evolve from just MONKEYS. Join us today at! No matter what race you are, as long as you aren't a nigiigger.
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21:35<Dr_Link:#openttd>On a server, if connecting as an OpenTTD client, how do I set autoclean_companies to off using rcon?
21:35<Dr_Link:#openttd>rcon <password> autoclean_companies off does not seem to work...
21:36-!-mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
21:36<a2k:#openttd>why "off" and not "0"?
21:36-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~Feletacio@*] by glx
21:36<Dr_Link:#openttd>I tried setting it to zero.
21:36-!-Feletacion was kicked from #openttd by glx [Feletacion]
21:36<Dr_Link:#openttd>I typed
21:37<Dr_Link:#openttd>rcon <password> autoclean_companies 0
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21:37<Dr_Link:#openttd>and it said autoclean_companies is currently set to: on
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21:38<Dr_Link:#openttd>a2k: ideas?
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21:40<a2k:#openttd>maybe there is some dependency on other variable
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21:48<@glx:#openttd>Dr_Link: try rcon <password> "autoclean_companies 0"
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21:49-!-mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek
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22:47<Dr_Link:#openttd>How do you completely remove a town in the scenerio editor?
22:49<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I don't think you can delete the actual town. you should instead remove its central road tile and leave it be...
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 21 00:00:22 2008