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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-12-21

---Logopened Sun Dec 21 00:00:22 2008
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01:09<@Rubidium:#openttd>Dr_Link: tried clicking on the town name?
01:15<George:#openttd>Rubidium: Should action 3 support extended byte house ID (FF 00 - FF 01)? Looks like it does not work.
01:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>my interpretation of the specs says that extended bytes are only used for vehicles (rest uses plain bytes)
01:23<@Rubidium:#openttd>although it should be possible to make it support extended bytes eventually
01:26<George:#openttd>Belugas wrote that it should work http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2441?project=1
01:27<George:#openttd>was he mistaken
01:34<@Rubidium:#openttd>looks like the action 3 doesn't read an extended byte
01:34<@Rubidium:#openttd>though I'm not sure whether just making it an extended byte doesn't break existing newgrfs (that assume it's a byte)
01:37<@Rubidium:#openttd>changing that would possibly require a newgrf version bump, but I'm far from certain
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05:46<Wolf01:#openttd>hello :D
05:50<frosch123:#openttd>you will shortly run out of smilies
05:53<@petern:#openttd>then you'll be using frownies
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09:03<George:#openttd>Belugas: are you here?
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09:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>George: that's pretty unlikely
09:20<George:#openttd>What is the right way to test if the user is on-line?
09:20<frosch123:#openttd>phone wolfgang schäuble
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09:21<George:#openttd>frosch123: why?
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09:21<frosch123:#openttd>never mind - german politics :)
09:21<George:#openttd>Sorry, did not understand the joke
09:22<@Rubidium:#openttd>George: there's no way to determine a user is on-line
09:22<+glx:#openttd>George: Belugas is usually away during week ends
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09:23<George:#openttd>Rubidium: for normal users they are displayed in grey when they are away, but mods are always red, so I can't see if a mod is away or not. And bulugas is a mod
09:23<George:#openttd>Belugas
09:24<frosch123:#openttd>George: he is minister of interior and known for designing laws to spy private lives and internet accesses, which are usually canceled later by constitutional court
09:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>talking about mister S.?
09:26<+glx:#openttd>@op
09:26-!-mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
09:28<frosch123:#openttd>do you want to hide your presence :p
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09:32<George:#openttd>frosch123: No, I do not.
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09:40<@glx:#openttd>@deop
09:40-!-mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek
09:42<@petern:#openttd>the term is op, not mod
09:42<@petern:#openttd>and ops can certainly be shown as away. clearly you client leaves things to be desired...
09:43<dihedral:#openttd>haha frosch123 - i like that one ;-)
09:43<dihedral:#openttd>George, get a decent client :-P
09:44<dihedral:#openttd>else you can see in the /whois result if a client is set to away or not
09:44<+glx:#openttd>dihedral: his client shows it correctly
09:44<+glx:#openttd>just most away users don't set away mode
09:45<dihedral:#openttd>hehe :-P
09:45<George:#openttd>dihedral: I found, my client distplayes it correctly, simply belugas does not set his away status
09:45<dihedral:#openttd>you are very fast George - must say
09:46<George:#openttd>English is not my native :S
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09:48<yorick:#openttd>dihedral: we're currently running the gaming day :)
09:48<dihedral:#openttd>yes - i saw on the server list - does not look like it's a full event :-P
09:49<dihedral:#openttd>but congrats :-)
09:49<yorick:#openttd>hehe, 11 players!
09:50<dihedral:#openttd>what issues did you have (wrt the servername)
09:50<yorick:#openttd>desync on join yesterday
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09:57<yorick:#openttd>and again, it seems to be a cargodest bug
09:57<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>well, report it...
09:58<yorick:#openttd>but can't reproduce it
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10:29<dihedral:#openttd>@seen Brianetta
10:29<@DorpsGek:#openttd>dihedral: Brianetta was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 4 days, 15 hours, 55 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <Brianetta> It's making me snigger now
10:29<dihedral:#openttd>ouch?
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12:29<Dr_Link:#openttd>Hey guys.
12:29<Dr_Link:#openttd>Questionl
12:30<Dr_Link:#openttd>*.
12:30<Dr_Link:#openttd>How do people have their servers to where if someone sends a chat message out beginning with a ! it responds to it as a "command"?
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12:40<frosch123:#openttd>do you mean autopilot ?
12:46<yorick:#openttd>Dr_Link: patched server/autopilot/other bot
12:46<Dr_Link:#openttd>patched server
12:46<Dr_Link:#openttd>I know of one server that kicks you if you terraform more than x amount of tiles at a time.
12:48-!-lewymati [~lewymati@aeje144.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
12:48<lewymati:#openttd>hi there
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12:48<Dr_Link:#openttd>hello.
12:49<lewymati:#openttd>i have just installed openttd
12:49<lewymati:#openttd>its awesome game xD
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12:55<svippy:#openttd>How often does the Max loan increase?
12:55<@Rubidium:#openttd>you want the correct answer or the lame answer?
12:56<svippy:#openttd>Correct.
12:56<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>every time the inflation of the initial loan increases by the minimum loan step
12:57<svippy:#openttd>O_o duh!
12:59<@Rubidium:#openttd>svippy: floor(((initial_interest / 100 + 1)^(2050-1920)*initial_loan - initial_loan) / 50000)
12:59<@Rubidium:#openttd>where initial_interest is 2, 3 or 4
13:00<@Rubidium:#openttd>s/initial_loan/max_loan/
13:00<@Rubidium:#openttd>and max_loan between 50000 and 500000 (both inclusive) in intervals of 50000
13:00<@Rubidium:#openttd>oh.. s/2050/2090/
13:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>the lame answer would've been: during the first 170 years
13:02<@petern:#openttd>that would be lame
13:02<@petern:#openttd>as the question was how often...
13:03<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>42.
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13:13<@Rubidium:#openttd>so between about 25 and 8000 times
13:14<frosch123:#openttd>or 0
13:14<@Rubidium:#openttd>frosch123: in which case?
13:14<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>inflation off :p
13:14<frosch123:#openttd>:p
13:15<@Rubidium:#openttd>then it increase 1 from 0 ;)
13:15<@Rubidium:#openttd>then it increase once from 0 ;)
13:16<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>err... but not during times where the user can interact
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13:18<dihedral:#openttd>increased :-P
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13:27<dihedral:#openttd>hehe - updated my move clients patch
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13:31<svippy:#openttd>Rubidium: Why can't trains gain momentum when they are going downhill?
13:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>cause you disable realistic acceleration?
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13:31<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>because the physics engine sucks
13:31<svippy:#openttd>No no.
13:32<svippy:#openttd>I mean, why can't it go faster than its max speed down hills?
13:32<mrfrenzy:#openttd>there is a max speed, if that is rached they will break
13:32<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>because the max speed is where the engine falls apart
13:32<svippy:#openttd>Instantly?
13:32<mrfrenzy:#openttd>otherwise bearings would overheat and they would derail
13:32<svippy:#openttd>Well, it should be a feature with a risk combined with it.
13:32<Aali:#openttd>there was a patch a while back that completely removed the concept of max speeds
13:32<@Rubidium:#openttd>svippy: they actually get a small speed advantage when going down hill
13:32<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>and it was rejected, because it both hurts realism and gameplay
13:33<Aali:#openttd>indeed
13:33<mrfrenzy:#openttd>that would be something, trains with infinite speed
13:33<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>there are more things that limit train speed than weight and power
13:34<Aali:#openttd>it was fun to toy around with, but for real games? wouldn't want that
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13:34<Aali:#openttd>you could, in theory, make a long line of slow steamers break the sound barrier
13:35<Aali:#openttd>which is just absurd
13:35<svippy:#openttd>o_O
13:36<svippy:#openttd>Why would you play a game where there is no limits? Isn't the entire point of a game, the limitations?
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14:12<@petern:#openttd>trains can't go faster downhill because the brakes are activated to prevent it! :D
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15:35<Ruudjah:#openttd>Hi :)
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15:57<TrueBrain:#openttd>*burp*
15:58<benjamingoodger:#openttd>the pinnacle of sophistication in this evening's #openttd has been reached...
15:58<Sionide:#openttd>yes, it's all down-hill from here on in
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15:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>yeah, Ruudjah has that effect
15:59<Ruudjah:#openttd>uh oh
15:59<Ruudjah:#openttd>i though
15:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>just kidding Ruudjah :)
15:59<Ruudjah:#openttd>t
15:59<Ruudjah:#openttd>I will give it some more sphistication
15:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>go ahead :)
16:00<Ruudjah:#openttd>by having a discussion about the competition mechanics in openttd
16:00<TrueBrain:#openttd>there is none, so that is a short conversation :)
16:00<Ruudjah:#openttd>I am Energetic at Kurt's Hard goal
16:00<Sionide:#openttd>is there anything really juicy in the latest nightly builds i should check out?
16:00<Ruudjah:#openttd>I just started a new topic on the problems forum
16:00<Sionide:#openttd>haven't updated my svn for aaaages..
16:01<Ruudjah:#openttd>I am unable to code/write patches for openttd
16:01<Sionide:#openttd>r12993 by the looks of it :s
16:01<Ruudjah:#openttd>and I want, in the name of Kurts community, to have a few things fixed in the openttd client
16:02<Ruudjah:#openttd>So I am doing everything in my abilities to make this happen....
16:02-!-Ruudjah is now known as Ruudjah|energeti
16:02-!-Ruudjah|energeti is now known as Ruudjah|energetic
16:03<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>A lot of people are limited/offended by the way competition is handled in openttd. Renewing trains to get the most rssource is the most important thing
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16:06<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>most games end up in boring train engine replacement, which kills the gameplay in openttd. Which I (and a whole lot of other players) think is a bad thing...
16:07<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i rarely replace engines... wagonspeedlimits makes that much less important...
16:07<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but i don't play "competitively" either
16:07<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>and currently, i don't play at all
16:08<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>oh well
16:08<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=41083
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16:11<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Hello all
16:11<SmatZ:#openttd>hello
16:11<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Hello Smatz
16:12<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>someone still did not learn the joys of the <tab> key?
16:12<SmatZ:#openttd>it's more "personal" to type the nick in hand ;)
16:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yeah... right... sure...
16:13<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Nite_owl==Nite?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you're in IRC because it's so personal
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16:15<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Nite vs. Night is a long story
16:15<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>whats the short version?
16:15<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Oops - nick infringement
16:16<Nite:#openttd>sry
16:16<Nite:#openttd>i always use this nick
16:16<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Not a problem - just my sad attempts at humor
16:16<Nite:#openttd>anyone into station rating debate here?
16:17<Nite:#openttd>truly sad ;)
16:17<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>yes, i'm into it ;)
16:18<Nite:#openttd>i finally connected
16:18<Nite:#openttd>anyone seemingly intrested in it?
16:18<Nite:#openttd>(no not that imn connected;) )
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16:20<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i tried at clanmega
16:20<Nite:#openttd>wow so much chat here i cant folow reading ...
16:20<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but my computer almost continuously stuttered
16:20<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>game was umplayable
16:21<Nite:#openttd>whats clanmega?
16:21<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>the gaming day organizer clan
16:21<Nite:#openttd>ic
16:21<Nite:#openttd>in what form do you "try there" ?
16:22<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>in the form of
16:22<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>logging in with a core2duo 3GB ram SSD pc with 100Mbit internet connection straight on AMSIX
16:22<Nite:#openttd>i also dont know what amsix is
16:22<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>biggest internet hub in the world
16:23<@Rubidium:#openttd>ix = internet exchange and ams is the location
16:23<Nite:#openttd>and why couldnt your pc handle it?
16:23<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>good questoin
16:23<Nite:#openttd>i dont get the system at all
16:23<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>what system
16:24<@Rubidium:#openttd>performance depends on the os, video card driver and some settings
16:24<Nite:#openttd>that the gameday uses
16:24<@Rubidium:#openttd>disabling full detail, animation and not using 32 bpp should result in quite a speedup
16:24<Nite:#openttd>which game you tried to play there?
16:24<@Rubidium:#openttd>and so does not zooming out
16:24<SmatZ:#openttd> + making trees (and buildings) invisible
16:25<Nite:#openttd>i dont get at all how this gameday thing works .. wbsite?
16:26<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>clanmega.warlink.eu
16:27<Nite:#openttd>found
16:27<Nite:#openttd>ok its an ottdserver ...
16:27<Nite:#openttd>how could i possibly not thinkof this
16:27<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>interesting thing, also for kurt, is the 11 player limit is removed
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16:27<Nite:#openttd>and huge maps
16:27<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>yes
16:28<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>it'd be cool to have, say, 16 companies at 512x512 maps
16:28<planetmaker:#openttd>good evening
16:28<Nite:#openttd>is it passworded?
16:28<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>no
16:28<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>hi
16:28<planetmaker:#openttd>May OpenTTD crash, if it cannot find grfs which are required by a savegame?
16:28<Nite:#openttd>the more the better
16:29<Nite:#openttd>no it dont crashes
16:29<planetmaker:#openttd>Or should it say so and not load it?
16:29<+glx:#openttd>planetmaker: it should just fail to load
16:29<Nite:#openttd>but also dont plays
16:29<planetmaker:#openttd>glx: then I have a new bug report for you at flyspray :)
16:29<SmatZ:#openttd>planetmaker: it may crash :(
16:29<@Rubidium:#openttd>planetmaker: glx is talking about grfs, you specifically meant newgrfs
16:29<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Does 0.6.3 standard trunk support servers with >11 players?
16:29<planetmaker:#openttd>oh... sorry.
16:30<planetmaker:#openttd>Then you can delete that flyspray entry, I guess.
16:30<planetmaker:#openttd>And we should always say which version of the grfpack is required for a savegame...
16:30<+glx:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: no
16:31<Nite:#openttd>i search for the clanmega newgrfs as well - package?
16:31<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>just read the forum
16:31<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>of clanmega
16:32<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>it is quite hard to get it setup all
16:32<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>patch/grf/etc
16:37<planetmaker:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: so... ? You say it's difficult to provide high quality service? Yes, sure...
16:38<@Rubidium:#openttd>ofcourse... the easier way to set up many client games without patches is providing a proper way to increase the number of clients instead of arbitrarily increasing some constant, that'll just be a) not enough and b) memory for everyone not playing many client games
16:40<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>planetmaker, I am not sure what you mean?
16:42<planetmaker:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: I'm not sure what you're dis-satisfied with... too few clients per game? Too few companies? Difficulties to patch the game to provide that? ... Any, some or all of those?
16:44<yorick:#openttd>Nite: it's just openttdcoop grfs
16:44<Nite:#openttd>i figuered out
16:44<Nite:#openttd>thx
16:44<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>no, just thining about the possibility to have more clients in games
16:44<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>*thinking*
16:45<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>I am dissatisified by nothing
16:46<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Just looking for ways to make it more interesting/more phun/etc
16:46<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>I do however recognize the are some limitations into heavy competition
16:47<Nite:#openttd>is the gameday runing now? i read it was a fail ...
16:47<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>and finding ways to remove those limitations
16:47<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>it says retry now
16:48<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>"(new try)"
16:49<yorick:#openttd>nite: just join :)
16:50<Nite:#openttd>sry but clanmega website is realy cryptic about the so caleld patch
16:50<Nite:#openttd>where to dl the patch end where to put it ???
16:51<Nite:#openttd>im sure ottd603 dont recognized the patch in my documents
16:51<yorick:#openttd>...
16:52<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>download, unpack
16:52<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>mvoe transport tycoon files to data folder
16:52<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>move grf files to data folder
16:52<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>run
16:53<Nite:#openttd>i ahve the grfs and ottd 603 running
16:53<Nite:#openttd>where IS the patch?
16:54<Nite:#openttd>and to what folder does it haev to go?
16:54<Nite:#openttd>or is it instaleld?
16:55<Nite:#openttd>i also dont have a clue what the "sample cat" is
16:55<Nite:#openttd>and i never needed eny ottd disk to play since ages
16:55<Nite:#openttd>i guess most palyers dont posses sthis disc.
16:56<yorick:#openttd>nite: patch is at tt-forums :)
16:56<Nite:#openttd>cryptic!
16:57<yorick:#openttd>the gaming day topic
16:57<yorick:#openttd>one of the last posts
16:59<Nite:#openttd>"the patch that yorick posted " is this the filename ? *LOL*
16:59<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>have you been to clanmega.warlink.eu?
16:59<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but, Nite, I share your frustrations about it
17:00<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>I costed me 45 minutes to get in running too
17:00<Nite:#openttd>i guess it must be the "openttd-custom-r14689-megaGD1-MINGW.zip"
17:01<Nite:#openttd>right?
17:01<yorick:#openttd>on windows, yes
17:03<Nite:#openttd>also i know how to unzip files since the 80's
17:03<Nite:#openttd>but where to put it actually?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>wherever your openttd.exe is
17:04<Nite:#openttd>ok thx
17:04<yorick:#openttd>I'd put it somewhere else
17:04<Nite:#openttd>guess you could have made that clear in a singel sentence
17:05<Nite:#openttd>download *filename* unzip and put it in *foldername*
17:06<Nite:#openttd>"somewhere else" so ottd scans your whole pc for the patch file right?
17:06<Nite:#openttd>why does this seem so strange to me
17:06<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Make a copy of your entire OpenTTD folder and then overwrite the .exe into the copy and run it from there
17:07<Nite:#openttd>THX i almost did overwrite my original ....
17:07-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
17:07<@Rubidium:#openttd>Nite: I suggest you read OpenTTD's manual (wiki.openttd.org) and then especially http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Installation_FAQ and http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/FAQ_OpenTTD_versions
17:08<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>who in his right mind puts a patch on an installed version without backing up?
17:08<Nite:#openttd>when you see wahts in the zip its quite logical
17:08<Nite:#openttd>it could have been a pathc that just adds additional files ...
17:09<Nite:#openttd>but right i havent used ottd pathces so far
17:11<Nite:#openttd>yust stable versions
17:12<Nite:#openttd>anyway i got it now - guess i need some schnaps now
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17:20<Wolf01:#openttd>'night z_z
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17:22<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i wonder why a faq is still needed for software (read: openttd)
17:23-!-Nite_Owl is now known as Barney_Frank
17:24-!-Barney_Frank is now known as Nite_Owl
17:24<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>*for software installation*
17:25<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: there's no need for a FAQ as long as you keep to stable releases with installers
17:25<@Rubidium:#openttd>once you want something that doesn't contain an installer it's up to you to do the installing
17:25<@Rubidium:#openttd>and lots of people apparantly can't figure that out on their own
17:26<@Rubidium:#openttd>this results in people frequently asking (the same) questions about the installation of whatever they want to play
17:27<@Rubidium:#openttd>furthermore languages are ambiguous like hell
17:27<@Rubidium:#openttd>even hell is an ambiguous word as it can have many meanings
17:27<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Winzip Heathens
17:27<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>lol
17:27<@Rubidium:#openttd>and then people start to use words for which other people have another assumption on the meaning of said word
17:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>repeat after me ... yes repeat after me .. here we go:
17:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>*burp*
17:28<@Rubidium:#openttd>like e.g. patch
17:28<@Rubidium:#openttd>*buuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp*
17:28<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>burp?
17:28<@Rubidium:#openttd>oh noes... now it's bleeding
17:29-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe3e8.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:29<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>eg, autogrf downloader, autoupdater, version installer & version manager, etc implementation would make installfaq obsolete?
17:29*benjamingoodger:#openttd slaps TrueBrain a bit with a packet of antacid tablets
17:30<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: really?
17:30<@Rubidium:#openttd>if I make a special version you still need that version of the game in a way that works for you
17:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>simply downloading my binary will not work... when you're not running my OS
17:31*TrueBrain:#openttd hacks Rubidium's computer
17:31<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>openttd version manager? openttd.exe shows list of installed versions, then user clicks on a version
17:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>autoupdate... to what version? What if it's an old binary?
17:32<@Rubidium:#openttd>then it'd need to recreate that binary in some way
17:32<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>not sure if you being sarcastic right now
17:32<@Rubidium:#openttd>that'd mean bootstrapping a compiler that compile that version and then building openttd for that version
17:32<@Rubidium:#openttd>which would mean you need a compiler that can the compiler installed on your computer
17:32<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>no
17:32-!-helb [~helb@84.244.90.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:33<benjamingoodger:#openttd>and all the same versions of the various header files and such.
17:33<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I think
17:33<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i mean from a user perspective
17:33-!-Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@user-5440c442.wfd78a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:33<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>from a dee perspective, u would probably be right
17:33<@Rubidium:#openttd>then there's the legal issues regarding downloading grfs
17:33<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i have about 12 folders with different ottd version installed on my prgfiles dir
17:34<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>whats the difference i downloading grfs with openttd or opera or firefox or...?
17:34<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>*in*
17:34<benjamingoodger:#openttd>the facts do not magically adjust to your perspective
17:35<benjamingoodger:#openttd>users can't run windows binaries on a linux system* any more easily than developers
17:35<@Rubidium:#openttd>openttd would need to download them from a central server as there's no way we can make openttd smart enough to google for a specific newgrf
17:35<@Rubidium:#openttd>and downloading from a central server means redistributing
17:35<@Rubidium:#openttd>and redistributing is forbidden, by license, for a number of NewGRFs
17:35<benjamingoodger:#openttd>not necessarily, it just needs to download a list of URLs from the central server.
17:36<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>xctly
17:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>omg ... how often does the discussion happen here?
17:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>the = this
17:36<@Rubidium:#openttd>TrueBrain: every few hours
17:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: you want me to script the replies in DorpsGek? :p
17:37<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>so if i build/start a project called winottdversionmanager, i would violate exactly what legal aspects if i incorporate a list of grfs?
17:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>Osai: erlang is indeed a nice language (still ahven't wrote anything with it, but still ;))
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17:38<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: things like copyright infringement or whatever it's called under the Berne convention
17:38<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but, then i would infringe copyrights right now too. Since i download the grfs using a software program called opera
17:39<benjamingoodger:#openttd>Rubidium: actually, he's now proposing not to redistribute things, but instead to provide a list of places where things are originally distributed from
17:39<Nite:#openttd>maybee they should drop some DRM on their pixeltrain sprites.
17:39<@Rubidium:#openttd>hmm... there we go with ambiguous... what does 'list of grfs' mean?
17:40<TrueBrain:#openttd>if they still have to open a browser to a HTML which shows the license, it is fine
17:40<Osai:#openttd>TrueBrain: huh?
17:40<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I don't think that's ambiguous at all, actually
17:40<TrueBrain:#openttd>Osai: erlang ... yes?
17:40<TrueBrain:#openttd>Osai: it is nice
17:40<Osai:#openttd>yea
17:40<TrueBrain:#openttd>:p
17:40<Nite:#openttd>whats teh point of copyrighting newgrfs
17:40<Osai:#openttd>how comes you highlighted my name here :D
17:40<TrueBrain:#openttd>Osai: channel I had open :p
17:40<Osai:#openttd>okay
17:41<Osai:#openttd>it really is
17:41<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>TrueBrain: why is the browser important?
17:41<benjamingoodger:#openttd>TrueBrain: the license could just as easily be incorporated into the list of URLs for grfs, and then shown by OTTD... thus not defeating the point
17:41<Osai:#openttd>it would be cool for handling openttds masterserver too
17:41<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: not the browser, the 'HTML which shows the license' part
17:41<benjamingoodger:#openttd>because if you have to open a browser in any case, you might as well give up
17:41<@Rubidium:#openttd>Nite: I suggest you read some legal FAQs; almost everything is copyrighted (except government generated stuff) (for the exact definition: see a lawyer)
17:41<benjamingoodger:#openttd>again, HTML is not special in copyright law
17:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>LOL!
17:42-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77DE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>okay, Rubidium, I give up on this already :)
17:42<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>why is html needed to read a license?
17:42<Osai:#openttd>and if needed you can add new servers to the masterserver system quite easily
17:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>I wish you good luck with the rest of the conversation ;)
17:42<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>ok, i wont tire you guys up
17:42<benjamingoodger:#openttd>Rubidium: the government of the UK makes a large profit from copyrighting its output
17:42<Nite:#openttd>and because almost everythingis copyrighted newgrfs must be too .. ic
17:42<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but please, one more question: what are you guys afraid off?
17:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>Osai: hehe, it is an idea .. ;)
17:43<benjamingoodger:#openttd>nite: everything is copyrighted by default...
17:43<Osai:#openttd>we might do that next year :D
17:43<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>angry grf creators?
17:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>hehe
17:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>that for sure :)
17:43<@Rubidium:#openttd>Nite: no, because you cannot NOT copyright it (double negative, I know; again... see a lawyer)
17:43<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>some companies sueing the ottd project?
17:43<Nite:#openttd>so when i make a pic of my cats arse and send it to the inet its not compyrightet by default
17:43<Osai:#openttd>the database system (mnesia) is a bit tricky IMHO
17:43<Nite:#openttd>im to dumb for this iguess
17:43<benjamingoodger:#openttd>nite: yes, it is
17:43<benjamingoodger:#openttd>unless you place it in the public domain.
17:44<TrueBrain:#openttd>and Public Domain only exists in USA :p
17:44<benjamingoodger:#openttd>no, no it does not
17:44<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>what would happen if you ignore certain aspects of copyright? the eiffel tower would fall down?
17:44-!-lolman [~john@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust846.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
17:44<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>what are you guys afraid of?
17:45<Nite:#openttd>so newgraf are no public domain nor are they gnu?
17:45<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I think some are GPL
17:45<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>has there been any threat against ottd project rgarding gpl/legalstuff
17:45<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>?
17:45<benjamingoodger:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: the project would grind to a halt as its ISPs baulked under takedown notices from copyright holders, and a small number of the team might be subjected to lawsuit or imprisonment
17:45<@Rubidium:#openttd>just for you to know... Linux, OpenTTD, GIMP, ... find more GPLed projects are all copyrighted
17:46<Nite:#openttd>and adding some txt where there is stated that they are gpl gnu whatever would be enough as i understand
17:46-!-mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
17:46<benjamingoodger:#openttd>nite: yep
17:46<@Rubidium:#openttd>Nite: saying something is licensed under GPL doesn't remove the copyright; it only licenses you to do specific things
17:46<Nite:#openttd>looks like not yep
17:47<benjamingoodger:#openttd>you have to say "this is placed in the public domain" etc. to remove the copyright
17:47<planetmaker:#openttd>Nite: there's a difference between "allowed to do anything" and "having copyright of"
17:47<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>what copyright holders would sent notices? grf creators?
17:47<planetmaker:#openttd>benjamingoodger: that won't work either. It will just allow anyone to use it for any purpose
17:47-!-Purno_ [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:47<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>only thing i can imagine is chris sawyer
17:47<planetmaker:#openttd>You simply cannot give away copyright. It's granted.
17:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: www.tt-forums.net, search for your idea ... read the replies of NewGRF authors .. I rest my case :)
17:47<Nite:#openttd>yeah yust copy that notices everywhere you can
17:48<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but that thing is managed great, by having refer to install dir when installing ottd
17:48<benjamingoodger:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: the newgrf artists
17:48<svippy:#openttd>Uh, the presence of benjamingoodger reminds me I should continue on my novel. Thank you.
17:48<@Rubidium:#openttd>and what we are "afraid" of is the following: some of the important NewGRF authors will remove all compatability for OpenTTD from their newgrfs, effectively making it impossible to use them in OpenTTD.
17:48<benjamingoodger:#openttd>hi! :)
17:48<Nite:#openttd>maybee i should stop typing because i dont get the point at all.
17:48<benjamingoodger:#openttd>no, that means you should _continue_ typing
17:48<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>okay, that makes some clear.
17:48<svippy:#openttd>Oh.
17:48*svippy:#openttd types.
17:49<svippy:#openttd>Should I type something meaningful?
17:49<benjamingoodger:#openttd>not you, svippy ¬.¬
17:49<Nite:#openttd>so its still the newgrf creators who dont like their work to be free ?
17:49<benjamingoodger:#openttd>type your novel. :P
17:49<svippy:#openttd>Oh right.
17:49<svippy:#openttd>You don't do that over IRC.
17:49<benjamingoodger:#openttd>nite: yeah
17:49<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>you guys think that when i create some project to remove the issue, they would send my isp a takedown notice?
17:49<svippy:#openttd>Unless it is one of those OpenNovels.
17:49<benjamingoodger:#openttd>oh
17:49<benjamingoodger:#openttd>no
17:49<benjamingoodger:#openttd>type your novel into a word-processor
17:49<@Rubidium:#openttd>Nite: it's the NewGRF creators that do not like to get bugreports about old and archaic NewGRFs that are still swarming the automatic downloading system
17:50<Nite:#openttd>and taht was my inital questions - why do the newgf authors dont want the newgrfs to be free?
17:50<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>do grf pngs have version metadata?
17:50<benjamingoodger:#openttd>...except, of course, that the system Ruudjah|energetic is actually proposing does not involve distributing anything
17:51<benjamingoodger:#openttd>nite: they want to retain proprietary control over what is done with it, I suppose, and to get more recognition for it...
17:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>there are also a few people who want their name in the source code :) Lucky enough, we refuse that ..
17:51<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>there is no credits page?
17:51<Nite:#openttd>ok - at first it sounded tome as everything is copyrighted by officials automatically ...
17:51<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i mean window of openttd
17:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>'svn log' :)
17:52<benjamingoodger:#openttd>so copyright is ceded to the project?
17:52<benjamingoodger:#openttd>nite: that is correct
17:52<Sacro:#openttd>benjamingoodger: I doubt that
17:52<Nite:#openttd>i doubt that too
17:52<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: there's no such thing as grf pngs
17:52<benjamingoodger:#openttd>everything is copyrighted by its own existence, and then the creator grants rights
17:53<benjamingoodger:#openttd>the berne convention is quite clear on this
17:53<planetmaker:#openttd>exactly, benjamingoodger
17:53<Nite:#openttd>you cant copyright any data that flows through the net
17:53<benjamingoodger:#openttd>nite: yes, you can
17:53<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I can copyright this sentence, for instance
17:53<planetmaker:#openttd>Nite: nothing needs being copyrighted.
17:53<benjamingoodger:#openttd>indeed, by typing it, I copyrighted it
17:53<Nite:#openttd>ok i see the creator has copyright - not hte officials
17:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>LOL! I wonder if that holds up in court ...
17:53<planetmaker:#openttd>benjamingoodger: hardly ;) But not for the reason of non-existance of copyright.
17:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>*burp*
17:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>nobody can say it!
17:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>it is copyrighted to me!
17:54<planetmaker:#openttd>Just not too ingenious ;)
17:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>MWHAHAHAHAHAHA
17:54<benjamingoodger:#openttd>--- and by sending it to you, obviously, I granted you the right to copy it and read it and such
17:54<Nite:#openttd>until he states different things
17:54<@petern:#openttd>"obviously"
17:54<benjamingoodger:#openttd>but that's automatic, due to the terms of use of Humanity
17:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>oh, stupid of us ... we forgot about the terms of use of Humanity ..
17:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>how could we forget about that ..
17:55<benjamingoodger:#openttd>:)
17:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>I feel so stupid now ..
17:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>wait ... I am not the one being stupid here
17:55<planetmaker:#openttd>general rule: you may assume nothing. Everything you want to do has to be explicitly granted to you by the author / artist
17:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>hmm ..
17:55<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>not sure where the sarcastic/negative undertone is coming from
17:55<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i guess u guys are very tired about this shippering between users and grf creators
17:55<benjamingoodger:#openttd>well, actually, you are, TrueBrain, because you have failed utterly to detect a metaphor
17:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: this discussion happens once or twice a month ;)
17:55<Nite:#openttd>terms of humanity ? its yust about sending some piles of pixels across the net that should look like vehicles
17:56<Nite:#openttd>*too wierd*
17:56<planetmaker:#openttd>Nite: a newgrf is not just an image. And even if so - it wouldn't matter.
17:56<Nite:#openttd>true
17:56<benjamingoodger:#openttd>it qualifies as an artwork...
17:56<planetmaker:#openttd>or as programming. Matter of perspective ;)
17:57<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I think the pixels are the artwork part ¬_¬
17:57<Nite:#openttd>well just do them good and paint their names im some kind of ppreview to rais their egos, maybee then it would be fine
17:57<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>so integrating winottdversionmanager into ottd project would still mean i would not violate any gpl?
17:58<@Rubidium:#openttd>that depends on many aspects
17:58<benjamingoodger:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: so long as it does not actually involve distributing other people's copyrighted work without their permission, it is OK
17:58<benjamingoodger:#openttd>you're allowed to tell people where that work is.
17:59<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>"distribting"....
17:59<Nite:#openttd>projects hindered by selfishness...
17:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>Nite: aren't all good projects? :)
17:59<Nite:#openttd>many
17:59<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd><benjamingoodger> I can copyright this sentence, for instance <- no, for anything to be subject of copyright, it must involve a significant level of artistic creativity
17:59<benjamingoodger:#openttd>nite: that applies to most things
17:59<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>downloading would mean distributing?
17:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: automated, without showing a license, yes ;)
17:59<planetmaker:#openttd>download IS distribution
18:00<benjamingoodger:#openttd>*cough*bollocks*cough*
18:00<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: there is a tricky slope, and I doubt OpenTTD would want to assosiate itself with it, if it pisses off some artists ;)
18:00<TrueBrain:#openttd>benjamingoodger: you? Yes!
18:00<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i never have read any license when downloading the grfpack from ottdcoop
18:00<Nite:#openttd>technicall it would be no problem at all ... thats sad
18:00<planetmaker:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: you should.
18:00<planetmaker:#openttd>You're not allowed to distribute it.
18:00<@petern:#openttd>redistribute
18:00<TrueBrain:#openttd>lol @ petern :)
18:00<benjamingoodger:#openttd>if a software program downloads things, that does not mean that the program's creators are redistributing said things
18:00<planetmaker:#openttd>And many grf have their own license which we supply
18:01<planetmaker:#openttd>petern: yes.
18:01<Nite:#openttd>is there re-redestirbute
18:01<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>what exactly then is redistributing it...? downloading it and puttingit into some progam files dir is?
18:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: but then... ottdcoop's grfpack doesn't contain all NewGRFs... and... they have permission to distribute the NewGRFs under some strict rules
18:01<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: no, putting it up for someone else to download
18:01<planetmaker:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: we're re-distributing the grfs. But distributing the whole pack :)
18:01<planetmaker:#openttd>*newgrfs
18:02<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i will write my first blogpost about this stuff... this stuff is killing oss development
18:02<planetmaker:#openttd>what Rubidium sais :)
18:02<benjamingoodger:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: redistributing would be the OTTD people getting it from the original author, and then putting it on their own server to be downloaded by users of OTTD
18:02<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: not only that ;)
18:02<@Rubidium:#openttd>jup... it's also used to sue dead people
18:02<benjamingoodger:#openttd>however, your proposal does not involve that, so it would not count as redistribution
18:02<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: how is this "killing"? the game runs perfectly fine without newgrfs
18:03<planetmaker:#openttd>Unfortunately there's also a bunch of grf creators which have no understanding of copyright issues at all...
18:03<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Rubidium and TrueBrain: reading the words "grf"and "installer" got u both shaking as hell.... while u even didnt knew what hell meant.
18:03<benjamingoodger:#openttd>0.o
18:03<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>its an insane situation
18:03<planetmaker:#openttd>what's insane?
18:03<@Rubidium:#openttd>oh... I know at least 4 definitions of hell, of which you most likely know 3 not
18:03<planetmaker:#openttd>:)
18:04<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: so you mean nobody may create closed source programs which run on linux?
18:04<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>as this will kill linux development?
18:04-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
18:04<benjamingoodger:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause2: it's strongly discouraged...
18:04<planetmaker:#openttd>bollocks
18:04<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>I meant exactly what i said
18:04<@petern:#openttd>hell: realtime ottd
18:04<benjamingoodger:#openttd>"hell is being stuck in a room forever with your best friends" --- satre
18:04<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>lets make it a bit more specific
18:05<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>copyright issues hamper usable oss software development, as proven by this discussion about grfs in openttd
18:05<benjamingoodger:#openttd>ah, but they also assist it
18:05<@Rubidium:#openttd>it isn't copyright... it's licenses
18:05<svippy:#openttd>Wait, what is hampering OSS development?
18:05<benjamingoodger:#openttd>svippy: selfishness
18:06<svippy:#openttd>And why are you saying "oss software"?
18:06<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>"usable oss software"
18:06<benjamingoodger:#openttd>svippy: foolishness
18:06<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: in my opinion, it is not the copyright in this case; the authors don't like such system; fine, we need them, so let it be like that
18:06<svippy:#openttd>That's like saying xfs filesystem or it technology.
18:06<planetmaker:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: they do not necessarily.
18:06<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>openttd works, if you want to take the effort to install all
18:06<svippy:#openttd>You just repeated what the last part of the acronym stood for.
18:06<planetmaker:#openttd>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/GRF_Table_(Trunk) <-- you may want to look at this overview of licneses
18:06<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: oss development must fit into copyright, not the other way round
18:06<planetmaker:#openttd>*licenses
18:06<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>agreed. But for Ottd, it does, and therefore, because there is one case, it hampers oss software
18:06<planetmaker:#openttd>for newgrfs which we have.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>copyright is the basis of everything
18:07<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: overgeneralization, sure
18:07<benjamingoodger:#openttd>that's an interesting statement, eddi...
18:07<svippy:#openttd><Ruudjahenergetic> agreed. But for Ottd, it does, and therefore, because there is one case, it hampers oss software << So because of OTTD, people are not creating OSS.
18:07<svippy:#openttd>Makes sense.
18:07<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>I would not recommend ottd to a gamer friend of mine, since of installation usability issues
18:07<svippy:#openttd>btw, Ruudjah|energetic, the last S in OSS stands for "software".
18:07<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>swippy, please stop trolling my text
18:07<svippy:#openttd>No, I am pointing out your flaws.
18:07<svippy:#openttd>And my nick is spelt with a 'v'.
18:07<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>open source is a way to specifically give up rights that are otherwise subject of copyright law
18:08<Nite:#openttd>copyright is a restriction.
18:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: svippy does make a point :) Your statement is heavily overstated
18:08<benjamingoodger:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: that was a legitimate thing to say. you're making a fool of yourself
18:08<planetmaker:#openttd>the vast majority of newgrfs may be freely used, most even re-distributed, most not modified, though
18:08<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>these rights must be given up by the copyright holder
18:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: btw, I always votes for creating a GRF system which forces people to release their grf under an open license; to avoid such things
18:08<@Rubidium:#openttd>Nite: not having copyright is a MUCH bigger restriction for development, as R&D wouldn't be worth the effort; better steal the competitors ideas
18:08<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>that's what licenses are for
18:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>but the truth is slightly different :)
18:09<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>I am amazed of the frustration that comes loose just by textualizing some observing
18:09<Nite:#openttd>why not only take the ones who are free ...
18:09<svippy:#openttd>Indeed, Rubidium, that's why you need a licence that gives you freedom and your users freedom.
18:09<TrueBrain:#openttd>I am already very very happy OpenGFX fixed their license issues :)
18:09<svippy:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: You did not intend for us to react to your comment?
18:09<planetmaker:#openttd>hehe. yes. Was a difficult birth to that
18:09<svippy:#openttd>Then why did you open your mouth?
18:09<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: people want their credit ..... people really think that highly over theirselves :)
18:09-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1C455.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
18:09<benjamingoodger:#openttd>svippy: it actually restricts the user's freedom quite a lot, for the good of the software... see "anti-tivo angry-revenge clause" :)
18:10<planetmaker:#openttd>being credited is fine. It's one source of motivation. Not the least IMO
18:10<svippy:#openttd>What is wrong with credit, benjamingoodger?
18:10<svippy:#openttd>You need people motivated to create the software.
18:10<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>TrueBrain: it is their right to demand "appropriate payment". that's what it says in the copyright (at least the german version)
18:10<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>svippy, you constantly take my remarks out of context
18:10<benjamingoodger:#openttd>svippy: wrong person
18:10<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: well, in fact it is very logic .. say you created some amazing NewGRF .. it would be nice if you can put that on your CV for a next job; so you want to give it a nice license ..
18:10<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>yes
18:10<svippy:#openttd>If anything, the developer has as much right to the software as the user, if not more, benjamingoodger.
18:10<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: maybe it's because people getting aggravated by the constant stream of people we are doing things wrong without understanding the governing laws
18:11<planetmaker:#openttd>TrueBrain: exactly :)
18:11<benjamingoodger:#openttd>svippy: again, you are addressing the wrong person
18:11<svippy:#openttd>No no.
18:11<svippy:#openttd>You said it restricts the freedom of the user a lot.
18:11<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: maybe it's because people getting aggravated by the constant stream of people who are saying we are doing things wrong without understanding the governing laws
18:11<benjamingoodger:#openttd>yes, it does
18:11<svippy:#openttd>It doesn't *and* it shouldn't matter, cause the user isn't the one who wrote the code in the first place.
18:11<svippy:#openttd>Besides, what can't the user do?
18:12<benjamingoodger:#openttd>the 0th freedom is cancelled in GPL3 under certain conditions
18:12<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>open source is not about users
18:12<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but apparently, it hampers development of openttd. You guys do not want to make an autodownaloder component for grfs since of users want to have their credits. Hence, its hampering ottd development, hence it is hampering oss development (even itf it is only slightly, for one project, for one aspect of it)
18:12<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>it is about potential co-developers
18:12<svippy:#openttd>You want a BSD licence instead, benjamingoodger?
18:12<benjamingoodger:#openttd>or rather, it is about the software
18:12<svippy:#openttd>That reduces protections of the developer.
18:12<benjamingoodger:#openttd>svippy: no, of course not
18:12<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: why are you so eager to find something that 'hampers' oss developement?
18:12<TrueBrain:#openttd>are you in that much need of a blog post? :) (seriously wondering)
18:12<svippy:#openttd>You think it is any wonder the Windows 98 TCP driver was taking from *BSD, benjamingoodger?
18:13<benjamingoodger:#openttd>you seem to be thinking the wrong way around
18:13<TrueBrain:#openttd>I mean ... an autodownlaoder isn't that much of a need for OpenTTD to succeed as project
18:13<svippy:#openttd>I might!
18:13<svippy:#openttd>Cause I fail to see what the problem is about OpenTTD.
18:13<benjamingoodger:#openttd>ok, then, if you know you're doing it, stop :)
18:13<planetmaker:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: mind that Rubidium said that a download _could_ be possible, if it _could_ be ensured, that only newgrfs are downloaded whose license allows that (from a central repo where such things can be assured)
18:13<Nite:#openttd>i think crediting the artists is easy to do.
18:13<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Truebrain: I am wondering why oss can't, after years of development, bring software to the masses.... With only one exception: firefox
18:13-!-mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
18:14<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: that is more a PR issue ;)
18:14<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>installation of software is a serious issue for that
18:14<TrueBrain:#openttd>has little to do with something like being able to download newgrfs ;)
18:14<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: because users can't be arsed to change their habits
18:14<planetmaker:#openttd>Nite: that's not their only concern. Also only distributing newest version, having control over the spread of it.
18:14<TrueBrain:#openttd>OpenTTD really is a simple install process :)
18:14<benjamingoodger:#openttd>there is no specific problem with OTTD... I was just correcting your comment about the users being given freedom. the GPL actually restricts the user nowadays, and it restricts other developers a _lot_
18:14<@petern:#openttd>main problem with an autodownloader is automatically finding the location of the download...
18:14<svippy:#openttd>Are we talking Windows, TrueBrain?
18:14-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1C455.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:14<TrueBrain:#openttd>if you want to be a 'power' user of OpenTTD ....
18:14<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>a whole lot of issues, i think. Technical issues can be removed, since developers make the software. PR issues can be removed with money
18:14<TrueBrain:#openttd>svippy: any OS
18:14<svippy:#openttd>I dunno how it is on Windows...
18:14<svippy:#openttd>On Linux it is extract and run.
18:14<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: because software cannot be free, if you do not believe that, ask microsoft.
18:14<planetmaker:#openttd>petern: not so for a central repository.
18:14<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: and money ... OSS doesn't have ;) (in general)
18:15<svippy:#openttd>Mozilla have money.
18:15<svippy:#openttd>Lots of money.
18:15<svippy:#openttd>Why you think they all have MacBook Pros?
18:15<Nite:#openttd>money and organization
18:15<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>TrueBrain, installing openttd is not a simple process. Yes, I agree, from my own devver heart perspective it is ridiculously simple. But my mom, or my gamer-friend, still thinks it is hard!
18:15<svippy:#openttd>Organisation, indeed. Mozilla did have an advantage in the form of Netscape.
18:15<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: how is it hard? Double click the .exe, Next, Next, done
18:16<@petern:#openttd>yeah, you have to run an installer... it's so hard :/
18:16<TrueBrain:#openttd>like any other software
18:16<TrueBrain:#openttd>sorry, I really fail to see how it is hard ....
18:16<svippy:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: Because they are narrow minded into a progress that isn't even fully standardised?
18:16<TrueBrain:#openttd>installing Microsoft Office is more hard :)
18:16<benjamingoodger:#openttd>svippy: well, actually, no, netscape got bought by AOL. the only thing moz shares with NS is the appalling rendering engine
18:16<svippy:#openttd>That is not OpenTTD's problem, that is their problem.
18:16<svippy:#openttd>Appalling, benjamingoodger?
18:16<benjamingoodger:#openttd>appalling, svippy.
18:16<svippy:#openttd>I fail to see how Gecko is appalling.
18:16<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>simply the observation that _they find it hard_, makes it that it is hard, at least for some people.
18:16<benjamingoodger:#openttd>well, it's slow... _really_ slow
18:17<svippy:#openttd>No.
18:17<benjamingoodger:#openttd>Yes.
18:17<svippy:#openttd>It is really really fast.
18:17<svippy:#openttd>I use it.
18:17<@petern:#openttd>bwhahaha
18:17<svippy:#openttd>On a daily fucking basis.
18:17<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I use it too
18:17<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: then Windows and Microsoft Word are hard to use
18:17<svippy:#openttd>And I can confirm otherwise.
18:17<@petern:#openttd>gecko was made faster by throwing more mhz at it ;)
18:17<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>I think for an oss project to be successfull, it needs some preconditions. one-click installers are one of those
18:17<svippy:#openttd>benjamingoodger: Get a alpha release.
18:17<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: the observartion that they find it hard, without any clearification makes it useless for this project ;)
18:17<benjamingoodger:#openttd>and when I use webkit browsers, on the odd occasion, they expose gecko as terrible
18:17<svippy:#openttd>That's what you see Gecko in all its glory, benjamingoodger.
18:17<TrueBrain:#openttd>like I get clients calling: my computer gives an error! - Which one? - I forgot, I clicked it away
18:17<svippy:#openttd>Trust me, petern.
18:17<TrueBrain:#openttd>I rather have them not calling me :)
18:18<svippy:#openttd>The javascript engine have been seriously improved.
18:18<@petern:#openttd>why should i trust you when i have first-hand experience?
18:18<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Rabidium: yes, it is. That is why companies have admins, and support. That is why MS focused purely on UI for the 2007 release of office.
18:18<svippy:#openttd>Which version are you using, petern?
18:18<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I don't care about alpha releases, I care about releases. current stable releases of webkit are lightning-fast compared to current stable releases of gecko...
18:18<svippy:#openttd>Yes, and Webkit are partly developed by Apple and Google.
18:18<benjamingoodger:#openttd>...and?
18:18<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: if any user fails to install OpenTTD Installer (Windows), they are not much of a user, and will never be able to install any project (sorry, but that is the truth)
18:18<svippy:#openttd>Sounds like an upper hand to me, benjamingoodger.
18:18<TrueBrain:#openttd>FireFox even has a more complex installer
18:19<benjamingoodger:#openttd>...so?
18:19<TrueBrain:#openttd>and you pointed out yourself that it is a succeeding project :)
18:19<TrueBrain:#openttd>if you want to bring OpenTTD to the masses
18:19<TrueBrain:#openttd>you need to put money in it
18:19<svippy:#openttd>Trident sucks bollocks, and is created by the largest software company in the world, benjamingoodger.
18:19<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>wow Truebrain, that seems very arrogant to me
18:19<TrueBrain:#openttd>and lots of it :)
18:19<svippy:#openttd>benjamingoodger: They are working on it.
18:19<benjamingoodger:#openttd>...what's your point?
18:19<svippy:#openttd>That's my point.
18:19<svippy:#openttd>And the Gecko is fairly sophisticated.
18:19<benjamingoodger:#openttd>that's not a point
18:19<svippy:#openttd>And Webkit has several security issues.
18:19<Nite:#openttd>what makes the firefox installe complex?
18:19<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: not meant arrogant, more realistic :) A few times hitting Next should be possible for any user with a bit of knowledge; it doesn't matter how much 'Next' hits it needs
18:19<@petern:#openttd>gecko doesn't have security issues? hehe
18:20<@Rubidium:#openttd>Nite: that you have to read a EULA
18:20<benjamingoodger:#openttd>*nod*
18:20<Nite:#openttd>its clicking on an icon and ok ok ok.
18:20<benjamingoodger:#openttd>EULA fail
18:20<svippy:#openttd>No, petern, but Gecko doesn't have obvious issues like Webkit have, petern.
18:20<benjamingoodger:#openttd>though there's a debian bug to strip that little abberation out
18:20<Nite:#openttd>noone can make you actually "read" it ;)
18:20<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>for ottd they fail at pointing to the original tt folder
18:20<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: I fail to see how such process can be improved any more, and how it can help in bringing OpenTTD 'to the masses'
18:20<svippy:#openttd>Did you not read the recent release of PM issues.
18:20<svippy:#openttd>Hm... wait, that might be a browser issue.
18:20<@Rubidium:#openttd>but TrueBrain's right that bringing OpenTTD to the masses needs lots of money; and the first step would involve ... lawyers
18:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: okay, there you have a point
18:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: OpenGFX most likely fixes most of that
18:21<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I fail utterly to see how an HTML renderer can have any security issues
18:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: hehe :)
18:21<svippy:#openttd>It can.
18:21<svippy:#openttd>Ask Microsoft, benjamingoodger.
18:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: btw, have the original TT CD in your cdrom drive and you will be fine ;)
18:21<benjamingoodger:#openttd>well, I mean, useful ones
18:21<benjamingoodger:#openttd>trident's a pile of wank, you needn't insult me by bringing it into this conversation
18:21<svippy:#openttd>Sorry, benjamingoodger, but some render engines apparently can execute code.
18:21<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>what about: *clicks "install OTTD button at ottd website"* 2. window pops up, showing "You really want to install?" yes/no 3. "Ottd is installed. Do you want to start it now? yes/no"
18:22<Nite:#openttd>openttd will hopefully NOT end as bought out unfinished to some publisher ...
18:22<@Rubidium:#openttd>and again there's the number 1 problem of "users": they click click click and don't read
18:22<svippy:#openttd>I apologise, benjamingoodger.
18:22<benjamingoodger:#openttd>:)
18:22-!-sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B45BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
18:22<benjamingoodger:#openttd>ok, onto point 2
18:22<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>users never have a problem
18:22<benjamingoodger:#openttd>gecko uses too much memory
18:22<svippy:#openttd>Really?
18:22<benjamingoodger:#openttd>oh yeah
18:22<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>devvers always do, and thus software always has
18:22<@Rubidium:#openttd>and not reading stuff is the major cause of people getting aggravated by so-called noobs
18:22<svippy:#openttd>Benchmark studies showed that Firefox 3 used the least amount of memory of all the modern browsers.
18:22<benjamingoodger:#openttd>yesterday it was eating 850M with one firefox tab
18:22<svippy:#openttd>O_o
18:23<svippy:#openttd>wt...
18:23<svippy:#openttd>Are you sure you're using Firefox 3?
18:23<planetmaker:#openttd>depends upon what is displayed.
18:23<Nite:#openttd>forget about memory usage soon well have 64 bit systems
18:23<planetmaker:#openttd>If I display a 1GB image ;)
18:23<benjamingoodger:#openttd>planetmaker: it was my company's website (http://flesbooks.com)...
18:23<benjamingoodger:#openttd>which I think is about thirty K
18:23<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: do tell, ignoring the requirement for the graphics problem, what the difference is between installing OpenTTD and installing FireFox?
18:23<benjamingoodger:#openttd>massive memory leaks FTL.
18:23<svippy:#openttd>Right now, benjamingoodger, I have 40 tabs open.
18:24<benjamingoodger:#openttd>point three. gecko doesn't support font definitions within CSS
18:24<benjamingoodger:#openttd>point four. gecko extends CSS with proprietary components
18:24<TrueBrain:#openttd>FireFox too is: clikc, download, double click on exe, Agree (even a thingy you need to click), Next, Next, Next, Install
18:24<svippy:#openttd>Firefox is using 272m.
18:24<benjamingoodger:#openttd>well, good for you. mine used 850M
18:24<TrueBrain:#openttd>OpenTTD is: clikc, download, double clock on exe, Next, Next, *click dir for TT graphics*, Next :p
18:24<svippy:#openttd>So does webkit, benjamingoodger.
18:24<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>1. The page promoting firefox. It instantly shows the functionality and advantges of firefox.
18:25<benjamingoodger:#openttd>that doesn't mean that gecko should
18:25<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: 1. www.openttd.org ; it instantly shows the funcionality and adavantages of OpenTTD. :)
18:25<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>2. the question: are you experienced or not? --> "standard/expert installation""
18:25<TrueBrain:#openttd>haha :)
18:25<svippy:#openttd>In fact, W3C have defined that variables starting with - are non-standard to be defined by the browser, benjamingoodger.
18:25<Nite:#openttd>ff has very few functionality thats its strongpoint
18:25<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: and where should OpenTTD be compared with?
18:25<benjamingoodger:#openttd>gecko can be crappy on its own or in comparison to webkit
18:25<benjamingoodger:#openttd>in this case it is crappy on its own
18:25<@Rubidium:#openttd>i.e. where does it have advantages over?
18:25<benjamingoodger:#openttd>anyway
18:25<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: over being bored and sitting silent at your desk :)
18:25<svippy:#openttd>While they wait for the CSS3 to be standardised, benjamingoodger.
18:26<svippy:#openttd>Which it hasn't yet, but still are taking it to them.
18:26<Nite:#openttd>thx of reminding truebrain ;D
18:26<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>3: install location. What has my mother to do where openttd is going on the HDD>
18:26<benjamingoodger:#openttd>yes, indeed, but CSS3 has been stable since the beginning of time
18:26<svippy:#openttd>True.
18:26<svippy:#openttd>It's a technicality.
18:26<benjamingoodger:#openttd>but let us cease this vitriol-filled conversation
18:26<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>4: why would my mother care about the start menu folder?
18:26<benjamingoodger:#openttd>how is your novel? :)
18:26<svippy:#openttd>O: I think it is good.
18:26<svippy:#openttd>But I am obviously biased.
18:27<svippy:#openttd>But! I have that far yet.
18:27<benjamingoodger:#openttd>well, yes, so am I, and so is everyone else. the idea is to convince people you're not ^_^
18:27<svippy:#openttd>Only 35k words.
18:27<benjamingoodger:#openttd>that's more than mine...
18:27<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>openttd.org shows the latest blogpost, not the advatnatges/features/func of openttd
18:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: 3. any sane installer asks
18:27<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>I know
18:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>and you think THAT is in the way of 'to the masses'?
18:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>haha :)
18:27<benjamingoodger:#openttd>would you care to send me the text, just so I can shove it into my typesetter and tell you how many pages it is? :)
18:27<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i install about 10 programs a day
18:27<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but my mother doesnt
18:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>so she clicks 'next'
18:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>like any user who has no clue what to hit next does :p
18:28<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: again... advantages compared to what?
18:28<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>PS *mother* is my metaphor for the dumbest user possible
18:28<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I promise not to publish it :)
18:28<svippy:#openttd>benjamingoodger: I warn you! There are several spelling mistakes and grammar issues in it. Including plot holes and other errors.
18:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: I would have picked the same metaphor ;)
18:28<benjamingoodger:#openttd>that's OK
18:28<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>compared to Transport Tycoon maybe?
18:28<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: give you mother ubuntu; then she doesn't have any installer wizards, i.e. it's much easier
18:28<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>(not being sarcastic here, just wanna give feedback.... I love all you guys' efforts....!)
18:29<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>But I learned that users are dumb
18:29<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>very dumb
18:29<planetmaker:#openttd>good
18:29<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>and therefore we --> "developers" need to anticipate on that dumbness
18:29<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: and there still isn't a cure :)
18:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: it really won't give us any significant amount of more users
18:30<planetmaker:#openttd>there're two things which are infinite: stupidity and the universe. I'm not sure about the latter (A. Einstein)
18:30<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>and usually, we "developers" are smart enough to do so. usually, its just a it of psychology
18:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>as if you mother would want to play the game, she asks ;)
18:30<benjamingoodger:#openttd>aaagh, do you have it as plaintext?
18:30<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>my gamer friend, for example, would.
18:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>I worked for ages as sysop at a school
18:30<Nite:#openttd>users are not dumb -most developers yust dont know how to trigger their intelligence.
18:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>the level of stupidness there is lowest of all
18:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>there really isn't a more stupid race on earth
18:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>teachers
18:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>I could hang on big billboards with instructions
18:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>they always failed
18:31<Nite:#openttd>its more of a communicatoin problem i think
18:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>even hitting the: YES I AGREE button
18:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>failed ..
18:31<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but as we know the r stupid/dumb, we should anticipate on that
18:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>TrueBrain: oh... in my view the sysops at my school were the dumbest ;)
18:31<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>hence cutting every possible little step in any kind of process
18:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: that is an other level of dumb ;)
18:31<svippy:#openttd>benjamingoodger: Uhm, no. Can OOo export to plain text?
18:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>it would be nice if we could have enough money to get OpenTTD really out there :p
18:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>haha
18:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>put it in stores
18:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>billboards
18:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>hmm ...
18:32<benjamingoodger:#openttd>svippy: yeah, it's way down the list in the save as box
18:32<Nite:#openttd>money profit - bah!
18:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>of course orudge will be leading the sell
18:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>and I will make a deal with him
18:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>say ... 50%? :p
18:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: I understand your effort, and what you try to say; I have been long enough to understand it perfectly fine :) But for fun, find such user which can't handle the OpenTTD installer
18:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>and try to give him any modified version of it
18:34<@Rubidium:#openttd>as long as you start by buying the exclusive TTD license from Atari/whoever has it ;)
18:34<TrueBrain:#openttd>I think he will fail on any version you give him
18:34<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>have found already two
18:34<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: of course! :)
18:34<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>three even
18:34<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: so modify the installer
18:34<TrueBrain:#openttd>and see where it goes wrong
18:34<TrueBrain:#openttd>don't guess
18:34<TrueBrain:#openttd>know for sure :)
18:34<TrueBrain:#openttd>as I think you will be very suprised :)
18:34<svippy:#openttd>benjamingoodger: Better?
18:34<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>not sure what you trying to tell here?
18:34<benjamingoodger:#openttd>much.
18:35<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: they can't ge tthe game installed, right?
18:35<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: the installer problem is mostly legal and not enough time
18:35<TrueBrain:#openttd>somewhere they fail in the process of hitting Next
18:35<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>yup
18:35<TrueBrain:#openttd>so modify the installer in such way they don't fail :) I think you can't find any way ...
18:35<TrueBrain:#openttd>and if you do .. give us thepatch :p
18:36<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i cant write cpp code
18:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>the isntaller is NSIS
18:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>nothing to do with C++ :p
18:36<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>okay
18:36<@orudge:#openttd>TrueBrain: 51% / 49%, obviously ;)
18:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>(not NCIS, that is a nice serie :p)
18:36<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>*moves unto todo list*
18:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>orudge: me the 51% Wow, tnx :)
18:36<@orudge:#openttd>pfft
18:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>good, that is a deal :)
18:36<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>nsis, wasnt that nulllsoft blalabla thingie?
18:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>yup
18:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>the installer
18:36<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>winamp!
18:36<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>those devvers are my heroes
18:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>in the old day they made an app which I would worth metioning
18:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>but I Wouldn't call it winamp
18:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>I woul dsay: winamp 2
18:37<@Rubidium:#openttd>really? after the 2 series it totally sucked
18:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>maybe winamp 3
18:37<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>motivation to dive into nsis +1
18:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>but ....... don't get any futher than that :p
18:37<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>:)
18:37<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>amen.
18:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>so please never say again just: winamp!
18:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>brr :p
18:37<benjamingoodger:#openttd>177 pages without linebreaks, svippy. unfortunately it needs blank lines between paragraphs, but I shan't ask you to insert them ¬.¬
18:38<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>winamp 2: clickityclick *arivies instantly on screen, even if p150 16MB mem*
18:38<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: I'd like to add the precondition "do not add the TTD graphics to the installer" for your "easy" installer project
18:38<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i still don't know why amarok 2 crashes on startup here...
18:38<svippy:#openttd>Hm, benjamingoodger, right now I use line breaks for paragraph change and two line breaks for section change.
18:38-!-Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
18:38<svippy:#openttd>I suppose that is easily converted, hm?
18:38<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>winamp 3 clickteyclick *wait.... wait.... wait.... HDD busy.... half screen appears.....*
18:38<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>next day, winamp 3 arrives
18:38<benjamingoodger:#openttd>yeah, but I CBA until you've finished it (and signed a publication contract)
18:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>try their 'latest' version ..
18:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>even songbird boots faster for the first time
18:39<benjamingoodger:#openttd>I've finished the ending for my novel now... there is much death, for people who deserve it, and one death for someone who does not
18:39<svippy:#openttd>Uh.
18:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>we ar ethe people who deserve it, and you are the one who does not?
18:39<svippy:#openttd>Is it bad that there isn't so much death in mine, benjamingoodger?
18:39<svippy:#openttd>The only death there really is is really really odd.
18:39<svippy:#openttd>Actually, the entire story is odd.
18:40<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>TrueBrain/Rubidium: I totally understand you guys do not want any connection with some autodownloader/autoinstaller of grf/newgrf due to artist stubbornness... no problem. I will never try to affiliate ottd project in any way with it.
18:40<svippy:#openttd>Even so, it confuses me at times.
18:40<benjamingoodger:#openttd>no, non-death is good also
18:40<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: or try to find common ground with those people, I say ;)
18:40<benjamingoodger:#openttd>the death at the end was necessary for character development and emotional exposition etcetcetcetc.
18:40<svippy:#openttd>Ah yes.
18:40<svippy:#openttd>It brings on many changes.
18:40<svippy:#openttd>Just like suicide.
18:40<benjamingoodger:#openttd>quite.
18:40<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>"or try to find common ground with those people, I say" that _does sound sarcastic :P
18:41<TrueBrain:#openttd>it was not
18:41<TrueBrain:#openttd>I was pretty serious
18:41<benjamingoodger:#openttd>"do unto others as you would have them do to you." "yeah, like that'll work! ppfff!"
18:41<TrueBrain:#openttd>btw, Lijbrandt zuigt
18:41<TrueBrain:#openttd>just so you know
18:41<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i already do.
18:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>Surfnet over Lijbrandt even does .. but at least it gives 100/100 :p
18:42<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but usually, i do have the ¤10 100Mbit straight-onto-amsix advantage.
18:42<benjamingoodger:#openttd>the character dying is killed off deliberately by one of the other characters
18:42<benjamingoodger:#openttd>and a third character then gets to hate the latter throughout the sequel.
18:42<svippy:#openttd>OH YEAH.
18:42<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>which is unmatched. reliability is a learneing point for them though (yes... sarcasm)
18:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>benjamingoodger / svippy: don't you think it is time for both of you to find your own channel?
18:42<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>this is openttd... unless your people are killed in a vehicle accident, you are off topic here
18:43<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>lol
18:43<benjamingoodger:#openttd>*nod*
18:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: hehe ... I know all about that :) Even meet the director of Lijbrandt to explain the problems :p
18:43<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Nite: can follow discussion still?
18:43<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>omg
18:43<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>where u live, TB?
18:43<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Leiden?
18:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>Guess :p
18:43<Nite:#openttd>topcis ? are there topics here :D
18:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>Surfnet .. Lijbrandt ...
18:43<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>grammar you learn can still
18:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>can't be much :p
18:43<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>adam?
18:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>nope
18:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>I am not that big :p
18:43<benjamingoodger:#openttd>is that a specific request to stop discussing this topic here, TrueBrain?
18:44<svippy:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause; learn grammar, you could.
18:44<svippy:#openttd>Maybe I am just a Yoda fan.
18:44<TrueBrain:#openttd>benjamingoodger: well, I always wanted to test my new @kick command, but yes
18:44<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>whugh, for new good guesses i have to check their website... I hate to focus energy on them. cant u just tell?
18:44<benjamingoodger:#openttd>ok... and will you extend the same courtesy to us?
18:44<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: I never worked there :p
18:45<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but hired as consult?
18:45<TrueBrain:#openttd>no :)
18:45<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>what town didnt i mention?
18:45<TrueBrain:#openttd>I live in Leiden :)
18:45<Nite:#openttd>bla bla cya
18:45<TrueBrain:#openttd>bye nite :)
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18:45<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>haha
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18:46<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>first hit
18:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>Surfnet and Lijbrandt .. only Leiden has that :p
18:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>student housing ;)
18:46<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>uh
18:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>I was in a "kritische gebruikersgroep" to get that in correct state ...
18:46<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i have lijbrandt
18:46<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>as u noticed
18:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>yup
18:46<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but dont live in leiden
18:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>but not surfnet ;)
18:46<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>right
18:46<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>so what did u do?
18:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>Surfnet is the 100/100 connection :)
18:47<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>u walked into management office
18:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>haha, no
18:47<benjamingoodger:#openttd>TrueBrain: kindly explain how you arrived at the conclusion that your present dialogue is less offtopic than mine
18:47<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>TrueBrain: does that mean you overused your connection? :p
18:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>a nice meeting and all
18:47<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>between users and admins and management?
18:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>users and management at first
18:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>we had to beg for one sysop
18:47<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but i do have 100/100
18:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>when the sysop joiend the meeting, 3 meeting later, the problem was fixed within a week :p
18:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>lol
18:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: hmm .. you are right, they have those too :)
18:48<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>there is an awesome (dutch) post about this tsuf...
18:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>benjamingoodger: our topic isn't going on for more than 10 minutes now
18:48<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>brb
18:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>url?
18:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: not overused .. still do :p
18:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>haha
18:49<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>found
18:49<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>for dutchies: http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_message/29093085#29093085
18:49<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>KnetterGek is one of the best GoT users
18:49<svippy:#openttd>Hehe.
18:49<svippy:#openttd>I like Dutch.
18:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>hitting 4 TiB a month ... hmm ...
18:49<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>ok, ill give a translation
18:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>url is invalid :(
18:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>I don't hav epermission!! :'(
18:50<svippy:#openttd>I love that word!
18:50-!-roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit []
18:50<svippy:#openttd>It's like permission, but electronic!
18:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>logging in helps :p
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18:51<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i don't have "toegang" either
18:51*Rubidium:#openttd dislikes stuff that requires logins to just view something
18:51<benjamingoodger:#openttd>:D
18:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>so you dislike your bankaccount?
18:51<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>url works here
18:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>(hehe, sorry :))
18:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: you need to be logged in to tweakers .. I guess most of the users here don't even know what it is :p
18:52<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i mean i usually understand dutch, but forcing me to register... i won't do that
18:52<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>ow
18:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>so translate ;)
18:52<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>can post dutch post here
18:52<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Zoals gezegd, de business moet iets willen. De IT club (en dus ook de ontwikkeling) voert dat uit. Zeggen dat je ontwikkelingsclub naar eigen inzicht bedrijfsbhoeften mag opvangen is natuurlijk vragen om ellende: de ontwikkeling heeft per definitie geen verstand van hoe het bedrijf moet lopen: dat is per definitie de directie die dat weet. Netto resultaat zou, in een kristal helder voorbeeld, kunnen zijn dat de ontwikkelaars een gratis
18:52<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>person shooter ontwikkelen omdat de meeste gebruikers het leuk vinden tegen elkaar schietspelletjes over het LAN te doen. Dat er ook behoefte aan is om bijvoorbeeld patientgegevens bij de verpleging te krijgen, dat kan, maar ja, ontwikkeling moet de prioriteit vaststellen dus ja... d'r willen meer mensen gamen dan werken heh. De verpleegster komt zo de quaddamage brengen.
18:52<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Het probleem is in jouw geval niet de IT club. En niet dat jullie de bal gegooid krijgen, dat jullie zelf naar hartelust projectjes mogen verzinnen of wat dan ook.
18:52<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>Het probleem is semi overheid en dat het management in zulke toko's eigenlijk behoudens een zeldzame uitzondering geen flauw benul heeft van hoe je een bedrijf runt en hoe je een organisatie goed opzet en draaiend houd.
18:52<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i will go to bed.
18:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>no, TRANSLATE
18:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: so soon?
18:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>but we will miss you :(
18:53<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes. i must be sick or something
18:53<SmatZ:#openttd>I already miss you!
18:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: well, good night :)
18:53<dihedral:#openttd>is there any way clients can check if a company has a password set or not?
18:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>it used to be in a query packet
18:54<dihedral:#openttd>use_password in _network_company_info is not set
18:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>but my knowledge is outdated :p
18:54<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>translation is hard
18:54<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>nuances go lost
18:54<dihedral:#openttd>which is a shame, because that value is merely a boolean and could be set imo
18:54<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>hence 75% of the humor
18:54<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>welcome to the real world
18:54<benjamingoodger:#openttd>"As I said, the business must want something. The IT club (and hence the development) bring that out. To say that your development club at its discretion may absorb bedrijfsbhoeften is asking for trouble: the development by definition has no understanding of how the company must walk: that is, by definition, the supervisor who knows. Net result would, in a crystal clear example may be that the developers developed an
18:55<benjamingoodger:#openttd>FPS because most users find it fun shooting games against each other on the LAN to do. That there is also need for example, patient data in nursing to get, you can, but yes, development priority should therefore adopt yes ... her want more people working than gaming heh. The nurse comes as damage to the quad.
18:55<benjamingoodger:#openttd> The problem is not the case in your IT club. And not that you get the ball thrown, that you own to your heart's projects may invent or whatever.
18:55<benjamingoodger:#openttd> The problem is that the semi government and management in such toko's actually save a rare exception not the foggiest idea of how a company operates and how an organization well deliberately and keep running."
18:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>PASTEBIN people .. come on!
18:55<benjamingoodger:#openttd>by the gods, I say, google translate has godt good
18:55<SmatZ:#openttd>benjamingoodger: Ruudjah|energetic: you know paste.openttd.org, don't you?
18:55<benjamingoodger:#openttd>oh, yes, sorry :(
18:55*benjamingoodger:#openttd is tired and irascible
18:55<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>yes kinda
18:55<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i noticed the recent developemtn on past website for irc
18:56<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>but i wont go into irc specifics
18:56<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>although opera made it finally accessible to me
18:56<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>since it is one click away
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18:57<@Rubidium:#openttd>dihedral: that'd require syncing that variable
18:58<TrueBrain:#openttd>*sync*
18:58<@Rubidium:#openttd>so it isn't at trivial as you'd think
18:59<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>oh
18:59<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>any word on the competition thingie i started at the forum?
18:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>the only remaining word of this night I have for you is: goodnight :)
19:00<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>:P
19:00<benjamingoodger:#openttd>good night, TrueBrain
19:02<dihedral:#openttd>Rubidium, it would only need 'syncing' if it changed from true to false or vice versa
19:02<dihedral:#openttd>not though if the password changes
19:03<dihedral:#openttd>i am trying to work on the move clients patch in a way that clients can join companies, and was wanting to avoid the server having to request a password
19:03<dihedral:#openttd>but the client doing that check and then sending the password in the same packet or not
19:04<@Rubidium:#openttd>that'd require storing the network seed of the server too
19:05<dihedral:#openttd>you do, dont you?
19:05<dihedral:#openttd>how else does the client set a company password?
19:05<dihedral:#openttd>i hashes, and sends the hash to the server
19:06<dihedral:#openttd>does not ask the server for the unique_id and seed and then hash and send back to the server, right?
19:07<@Rubidium:#openttd>the server only sends the unique ID when it's needed, i.e. when the client needs to enter a company password
19:07<@Rubidium:#openttd>hmm
19:07<@Rubidium:#openttd>oh... also in the welcome packet
19:07<dihedral:#openttd>when i am already in the game, and set a password, the client does not request that data again
19:08<@Rubidium:#openttd>yup... it's stored at client side
19:08*Rubidium:#openttd is tired and hasn't looked at the network code for a while
19:08<dihedral:#openttd>thought i was going bonkers for a second :-P
19:08<dihedral:#openttd>now i am writing a move patch, where clients can be moved by the server, or clients can request the server to move them
19:09<dihedral:#openttd>if they want to be moved to a pw protected company, i was hoping for them to not have to query the server for that bit
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19:10<dihedral:#openttd>would it be reasonable to sync that one boolean flag, or would it be better practice to let the client request the move, and the server request the password if needed
19:12<SmatZ:#openttd>the latter :)
19:13<dihedral:#openttd>if the client knows of companies requiring a password or not, it's easier to 'cancel' the join
19:13<@Rubidium:#openttd>SmatZ: rather not... that requires keeping state at the server
19:13<dihedral:#openttd>aye
19:14<dihedral:#openttd>you would have to keep, which company the client is trying to join, which company the client is in right now, and have a timeout for accepting the password
19:14<SmatZ:#openttd>Rubidium: then I didn't understand the question correctly, but the server already knows if there is a password for given company - or am I that wrong?
19:14<@Rubidium:#openttd>SmatZ: yes
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19:15<dihedral:#openttd>SmatZ: _network_company_info[index].use_password is a boolean flag
19:15<dihedral:#openttd>which is not a lot of data to also keep synced
19:15<SmatZ:#openttd>Rubidium: ah ok... I should go to bed, I am so tired today :-x
19:15<SmatZ:#openttd>good night
19:15<dihedral:#openttd>nice SmatZ
19:15<dihedral:#openttd>sweet dreams
19:15*dihedral:#openttd grins
19:17<dihedral:#openttd>haha! it's already being sent
19:18<dihedral:#openttd>probably just not kept up to date
19:18<@Rubidium:#openttd>Ruudjah|energetic: I think the replace vehicle every week problem should be solved and not that new vehicles get a higher rating; just make it more expensive to buy-sell-buy-sell-buy-sell than using the vehicle for a while
19:18<@Rubidium:#openttd>dihedral: after getting the lobby it's never updated
19:18<@Rubidium:#openttd>so at "join" it's already out-of-sync
19:18<dihedral:#openttd>oh
19:18<dihedral:#openttd>ok
19:19<dihedral:#openttd>so i just need to update all clients with PACKET_SERVER_COMPANY_INFO
19:19<dihedral:#openttd>or is that a overkill
19:19<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Rubidium: how about "after a vehicle left the depot, it immediately loses 20% of its value"?
19:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: that's the idea for a few months already
19:19<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>(which is actually realistic, e.g. if you buy a car)
19:20<@Rubidium:#openttd>but then... I reckon I've written it down before somewhere
19:22<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i'd like a more complex system of "new" and "used" vehicle pools
19:23<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>where "new" vehicles represent the amount the factories could produce, and "used" vehicles represent a pool of previously owned vehicles (possibly by virtual companies that are not present on the map)
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19:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>the prices of "new" vehicles could then rise significantly, if the number of requests exceeds the production capacity
19:25<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>and production capacity could be subject to similar modifiers as model reliability
19:26<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i.e. start out low with the prototypes. then rise to a higher value, where really popular models can reach high availability, and then drop towards the end of the model life time
19:27<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>second market availability would start out at 0 during prototype phase, then slowly rise during the model life, and reach its peak before the end of the first prototype's vehicle life
19:28<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>so even if vehicles are not available as "new" anymore, there would still be availability from the "used" market, with decreased vehicle life, but cheaper
19:28<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>sorry, was afk. Rubidium: awesome. I think so too. As I noted already in the topic, CBV goal games dont care about 75% value of new trains bought. Btw, it would make the company value bad
19:29<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>since every train brought makes the company value devaluate 25% of train value
19:29<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>*bought*
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19:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>imho, bank money should not count to company value
19:30<@Rubidium:#openttd>but a trip would gain "income - running cost - 20 % of new vehicle value"
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19:31<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>a two market model like my suggestion would even increase that 20% margin for people who use that tactics extensively
19:31<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>yes, but ncv is caluclated of train worth. having 100K, and spending this on trains now still gets u ncv of 100K. Then it would be different.
19:31<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>the new price would grow insanely high, while the second market gets flooded with vehicles, so the selling value drops
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19:35<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>money that is not spent has no value
19:36<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>i believe in ottd it does.
19:36<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>company value should be calculated purely from the company's property (vehicles, stations, infrastructure)
19:36<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes, and that is flawed
19:37<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>yes
19:37<Ruudjah|energetic:#openttd>that is why Kurt developed his own company value, NCV, Net Company Value
19:37<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>especially during times where the company has bank loan
19:38<@Rubidium:#openttd>but then buying unused vehicles can just artificially increase your company value
19:38<@Rubidium:#openttd>or making many stations
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19:39<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>if the game was properly balanced, the company would always run on bank loan
19:40<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>part of the balance problem currently is, that net income grows linearly with number of vehicles
19:40<@Rubidium:#openttd>then it'd be unplayable for Ruudjah|energetic's mother
19:40<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>it should grow sublinearly
19:41<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>there should be company management maintenance
19:42<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>not just running costs of individual vehicles
19:43<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>something that has little effect on companies with 10 vehicles, but huge effect on companies with 1000 vehicles
19:43<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>and if you want to grow even further, you'll have to "outsource" part of your network
19:43<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>that'll be a nice challenge for the coop people :p
19:45<dihedral:#openttd>Rubidium, if say the company name changes, how is that data transfered to all clients?
19:46<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i'd imagine something in O(n^2) in the amount of vehicles owned
19:47<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>where you could also give different weights to vehicles
19:47<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>e.g. 1 for train wagons, 2 for trucks, 5 for train engines, 10 for aircraft
19:48<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>so 1 aircraft would cause the same management proplems as a train with 5 wagons
19:50<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>a business model like this can also introduce "realistic" behaviour of closing down small branch lines
19:51<@Rubidium:#openttd>dihedral: CMD_CHANGE_COMPANY_NAME (or something like that)
19:51<dihedral:#openttd>oh - so it's handled as a command in the queue
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19:52<dihedral:#openttd>so i would either need to add a new packet to sync some company details or let the server keep the state...
19:52<@Rubidium:#openttd>yup... as it isn't network specific
19:52<dihedral:#openttd>hmmmm
19:54<dihedral:#openttd>that would be a very small network packet if all it had to do was update a boolean flag
19:54<dihedral:#openttd>:-S
19:54<dihedral:#openttd>little amount of data - huge overhead :-P
19:56<dihedral:#openttd>sounds too yucky imo
19:56<@Rubidium:#openttd>not syncing's also yucky
19:57<dihedral:#openttd>perhaps there is more data that needs syncing
19:57<dihedral:#openttd>and that could be combined
19:57<dihedral:#openttd>btw, while i think of it
19:57<dihedral:#openttd>console_cmds.cpp
19:58<dihedral:#openttd>in the ConCompanies
19:58<dihedral:#openttd>there is a beautiful line: /* protected */ StrEmpty(npi->password) ? "un" : "");
19:58<dihedral:#openttd>why not use npi->use_password ? "un" : "" ); instead?
19:59<@Rubidium:#openttd>as servers don't set the use_password bool
19:59<dihedral:#openttd>oh?
19:59<dihedral:#openttd>why not?
19:59<dihedral:#openttd>(just out of curiosity)
20:00<@Rubidium:#openttd>cause it's unneeded maintaince of variables
20:00<dihedral:#openttd>they must set it!
20:00<@Rubidium:#openttd>why?
20:00<dihedral:#openttd>else they could not send the details to the clients in the lobby
20:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>technically use_password is for clients and password is for servers and warrants a base class with subclasses
20:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>dihedral: every read the sending part?
20:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>just search for use_password in e.g. network_server.cpp
20:01<dihedral:#openttd>yep its used in PACKET_SERVER_COMPANY_INFO
20:02<dihedral:#openttd>oh
20:02<dihedral:#openttd>never said a thing
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20:08<dihedral:#openttd>well - i shall head to bed
20:08<dihedral:#openttd>thank you Rubidium for your help
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22:38<Dr_Link:#openttd>How do I set up a dedicated server to use a specific map as opposed to a fractal map?
22:45<Dr_Link:#openttd>Does anyone know?
22:48<benjamingoodger:#openttd>it's 04:45 here... so, everyone who knows is asleep, sorry
22:50<Dr_Link:#openttd>Are you kidding?
22:50<Dr_Link:#openttd>It's 10:50 PM on my end...
22:52<benjamingoodger:#openttd>well, yes, but there are other timezones besides EST
22:52<Dr_Link:#openttd>I'm well aware of that one.
22:52<Dr_Link:#openttd>Never mind that now, I may have found my answer.
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---Logclosed Mon Dec 22 00:00:24 2008