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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-12-23

---Logopened Tue Dec 23 00:00:24 2008
00:20<eQualizer:#openttd>Um what. OpenTTD eats half of my processing power. And I'm using not less than a year old Macbook Pro.
00:21<George:#openttd>Belugas: House ID is not extended byte. At least action 3 does not think so
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02:52<De_Ghosty:#openttd>ur useing a mac
02:52<De_Ghosty:#openttd>that's a fial
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03:39<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14719 /trunk/src/network/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
03:39<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Codechange: replace DEREF_CLIENT with an instance function and replace looping
03:39<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: socket structs with info structs when the loop is only interested in the info
03:39<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: structs (i.e. not derefing the info from sockets when one can loop info directly
03:39<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: and the socket isn't used)
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03:53<dihedral:#openttd>good yawning
03:53<dihedral:#openttd>Rubidium, you have a high on nice commits atm :-)
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03:59<@Rubidium:#openttd>they're quite boring commits
04:01<dihedral:#openttd>may i ask for you personal opinion on something?
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04:02<dihedral:#openttd>http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/move_clients.v7.r14719.patch
04:02<dihedral:#openttd>i would love to know what you think, could be improved, etc.
04:02<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14720 /trunk/src/network/ (4 files): -Codechange: s/FOR_ALL_CLIENTS/FOR_ALL_CLIENT_SOCKETS/ as the latter describes the name more precisely.
04:02<dihedral:#openttd>it's not 100% finished, but close to
04:02<@Rubidium:#openttd>isn't asking the question asking for my personal opinion on said question?
04:03<dihedral:#openttd>i was still pushing the file to my webspace
04:03<dihedral:#openttd>and it was more a question of if you have the time, and wanted to
04:03<dihedral:#openttd>not if i may ask
04:03<dihedral:#openttd>;-)
04:04<dihedral:#openttd>it add's a 'join' button to the company window
04:04<dihedral:#openttd>will prompt for a password if needed
04:04<dihedral:#openttd>and then the client sends a request to the server to be moved to the new company
04:05<dihedral:#openttd>what i still want to do (appart from removing the debug messages) is adding 'new company' to the company list
04:05<dihedral:#openttd>then people can join as spectator and start a game without having to reconnect (same with joining passwords)
04:05<dihedral:#openttd>*joining passworded companeis
04:05<@Rubidium:#openttd>fwiw: client index != client id, client ids are 32 bits
04:07<dihedral:#openttd>oh
04:07<dihedral:#openttd>that is good to know :-)
04:07<dihedral:#openttd>then i need Send_uint32
04:09<@Rubidium:#openttd>+ /* Disable any buttons in any windows the client is now not supposed to get to, and do it fast. */
04:09<@Rubidium:#openttd>+ /* If this is not done fast enough, it can cause the client to be kicked or have an assert! */
04:09<@Rubidium:#openttd>those aren't very hope giving comments
04:09<@Rubidium:#openttd>+void NetworkClientSendMove(CompanyID company);
04:09<@Rubidium:#openttd>+void NetworkClientSendMove(CompanyID company, const char *pass);
04:10<dihedral:#openttd>it's because otherwise the client can send a wrong company_id in the packets
04:10<@Rubidium:#openttd>that could easily become
04:10<@Rubidium:#openttd>+void NetworkClientSendMove(CompanyID company, const char *pass = "");
04:10<dihedral:#openttd>oh - that is possible? perfect
04:11<dihedral:#openttd>changed
04:15<petern:#openttd>oh, moving clients
04:15<petern:#openttd>is that the version with a gui or just the background code to enable it?
04:16<dihedral:#openttd>with a gui
04:16<dihedral:#openttd>:-)
04:16<dihedral:#openttd>just missing 'new company' in the company list
04:16<dihedral:#openttd>and i would like to split up the 'move' console command
04:17<dihedral:#openttd>and make 'move <client_id> [<company_id>]' server only
04:17<dihedral:#openttd>and make a 'join <company_id|spec|spectators>' a client side command
04:17<dihedral:#openttd>and perhaps a 'new_company' command
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>or 'join new'
04:22<dihedral:#openttd>the thought of a 'invite' request to the server has also crossed my mind
04:22<dihedral:#openttd>where in the client list one could send an invite to another client
04:22<dihedral:#openttd>and without having to specify a password that client (if he/she accepts the invite) will be moved by the server
04:29<@Rubidium:#openttd>should the client be asked whether he/she accepts to be moved by the server?
04:30<@Rubidium:#openttd>that'd mean "slapping" a player by moving him/her to specs can't really be done
04:31<dihedral:#openttd>well - with the move command: it's only server side, and thus i thought the prio of an admin is higher
04:31<dihedral:#openttd>i.e. like a kick if one does not behave, this time the client is moved to spectators
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04:32<dihedral:#openttd>just need to find a way to forbid a client to move himself
04:32<dihedral:#openttd>or herself
04:32<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>change the company password ;)
04:32<dihedral:#openttd>the clent should only be asked to accept an invite
04:33<dihedral:#openttd>i.e. if another client invites him to another company, then the client should confirm
04:33<dihedral:#openttd>but it would mean the server must keep track of the invite data
04:37<dihedral:#openttd>the creating a new company would be more important than an invite feature if you ask me
04:39<dihedral:#openttd>you have any other comments, ideas? Rubidium, petern ?
04:39<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i don't really see the need for invites
04:39<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you could instead give the person a temporary password
04:40<dihedral:#openttd>that is nicer, too, then the server needs not keep track of an invite + handle a timeout of if no response comes back from the client
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04:47<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14721 /trunk/src/network/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: s/NetworkTCPSocketHandler/NetworkClientSocket/ as it's (way) more descriptive what it's used for.
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04:58<dihedral:#openttd>[09:59] <Rubidium> they're quite boring commits <- structure is good and important, and cleaning up stuff is too
05:01<petern:#openttd>lol
05:01<petern:#openttd>i ran out of screens
05:01<petern:#openttd>just going through and closing them
05:01<dihedral:#openttd>:-P
05:01<petern:#openttd>a lot of them are just running old bc instancs :p
05:01<petern:#openttd>+e
05:01<dihedral:#openttd>sounds like an odd thing to happen
05:01<dihedral:#openttd>ah
05:03<petern:#openttd>i work something out, leave it open for next time
05:03<petern:#openttd>next time ... i create a new one :o
05:03<dihedral:#openttd>lol
05:08<dihedral:#openttd>depending on the time between now and 'next time' i prob could do the same
05:08<dihedral:#openttd>:-P
05:20<petern:#openttd>often 2 minutes :p
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05:23<dihedral:#openttd>petern, start chewing chewing gum
05:23<dihedral:#openttd>that gets more blood to your head, thus more oxygen :-P
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05:23<TrueBrain:#openttd>*burp*
05:24<Alberth:#openttd>I open many screens when the computer is not fast enough... I start something, get annoyed it takes time, think of something I can do in the mean time, switch desktop, start the program, etc. :)
05:24<dihedral:#openttd>morning TrueBrain
05:26<TrueBrain:#openttd>ah, yes that is what this nagging feeling on the side is
05:26<TrueBrain:#openttd>morning ..
05:26<TrueBrain:#openttd>:)
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05:42<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14722 /trunk/src/network/ (4 files): -Codechange: s/DEREF_CLIENT/GetNetworkClientSocket/
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05:51<dihedral:#openttd> company_info->use_password = p->Recv_bool();
05:51<dihedral:#openttd>why does that cause a bus error?
05:52<dihedral:#openttd>wait - missing something infront
05:52<dihedral:#openttd>NetworkCompanyInfo *company_info = GetLobbyCompanyInfo(company_id);
05:52<@Rubidium:#openttd>probably because company_info = NULL
05:54<dihedral:#openttd>oh
05:54<dihedral:#openttd>crap
05:54<dihedral:#openttd>sending info too soon perhaps...?
05:55<Yorick:#openttd>isn't the lobby cleared when downloading the map?
05:55<@Rubidium:#openttd>very unlikely
05:56<Yorick:#openttd>looking at the glitches when you start map download...
05:56<@Rubidium:#openttd>it's very unlikely that it crashes in clean trunk
05:57<dihedral:#openttd>it's a patch i am sitting on
05:59<Yorick:#openttd>are you sure the lobby window is open?
06:01<dihedral:#openttd>the lobby window definitely is not open
06:01<Yorick:#openttd>you can't get data from the lobby window when it's not open ;)
06:07<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14723 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: shuffling some stuff around to reduce indirect #include dependencies.
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06:18<dihedral:#openttd>Rubidium, what alternative to i now have to _network_company_info ?
06:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>none
06:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>and why would you need the whole struct?
06:20<dihedral:#openttd>i want to get to use_password
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06:21<dihedral:#openttd>i was syncing that field before, so that the client could prompt for the password when joining a company
06:21<dihedral:#openttd>*flag
06:23<@Rubidium:#openttd>but why keep 280+ bytes per company for only storing whether the company is passworded or not?
06:24<dihedral:#openttd>rather that than querying the server each time :-P
06:24<dihedral:#openttd>or not
06:24<dihedral:#openttd>the space is used in the struct anyway
06:24<dihedral:#openttd>why not use it properly then?
06:25<@Rubidium:#openttd>huh? what space is used? when?
06:25<dihedral:#openttd>NetworkCompanyInfo has bool use_password, correct?
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06:25<dihedral:#openttd>why only have access to that data from the lobby?
06:26<dihedral:#openttd>why not use it in the game too
06:26<@Rubidium:#openttd>yes, but when is NetworkCompanyInfo actually allocated?
06:26<dihedral:#openttd>that could be a one off, after PACKET_CLIENT_ACK
06:27<dihedral:#openttd>at the end, update the client with the company info
06:27<dihedral:#openttd>or perhaps moving use_password to the parent struct would be an idea?
06:27<dihedral:#openttd>would that make more sense?
06:27<dihedral:#openttd>then it would be accessible in _network_company_states
06:28<Yorick:#openttd>why would it be needed to allocate 280+ bytes per company for stuff that is already stored somewhere else (except for your password)
06:29<@Rubidium:#openttd>company states only contains info useful for the server
06:29<@Rubidium:#openttd>and moving it to the parent struct doesn't help you a bit
06:30<dihedral:#openttd>shame
06:31<dihedral:#openttd>you have any idea?
06:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>CompanyMask _network_passworded_company; ?
06:32<dihedral:#openttd>ok
06:32<@Rubidium:#openttd>of maybe even make that static and put it in network_client.cpp
06:32<dihedral:#openttd>and use as array?
06:33<@Rubidium:#openttd>what about bitmask?
06:33<dihedral:#openttd>ah :-)
06:33<dihedral:#openttd>nice
06:34<dihedral:#openttd>but that would mean if there are more than 8 companies (some time not in the near future) you would have to change the typedef, make a new one, or store the details differently again
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06:34<@Rubidium:#openttd>really?
06:34<dihedral:#openttd>thought so
06:34<Yorick:#openttd>the typedef can be changed then ;)
06:35<@Rubidium:#openttd>changing a typedef isn't that hard
06:35<@Rubidium:#openttd>and increasing the companies beyond 15 isn't quite feasible
06:36<dihedral:#openttd>true
06:36<dihedral:#openttd>and then all CompanyMask's will need the update anyway i take it
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06:42<artur:#openttd>Hi
06:43<artur:#openttd>I have problem with new graphics in openttd, i have TGV-Atlantique.grf in openttd directory, when i add this file in game, still i cant buy tgv, how to fix it?
06:43<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14724 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp.h network_internal.h): -Codechange: move some NetworkClientSocket related function/definitions closer together.
06:48<Progman:#openttd>did you have add the newgrf in your newgrf list?
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06:49<artur:#openttd>Progman, yes
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06:50<Progman:#openttd>which year is your new game?
06:52<artur:#openttd>Progman, 2005
06:53<Progman:#openttd>works here
06:53<OwenS:#openttd>It is in your OpenTTD/data folder?
06:53<artur:#openttd>yes
06:54<artur:#openttd>what should i build to buy TGV? only standard depot?
06:54<OwenS:#openttd>Electrified rail depot if electrified rail is enabled I'd expect?
06:55<Progman:#openttd>I build it with an eletric depot
06:55<artur:#openttd>hmmm i have any electric depot, only standard depot, how to enable eletric?
06:56<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14725 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change: make it clearer why (and that) MAX_CLIENTS isn't the amount of slots in the array, but one less as a dedicated server takes a slot too.
06:56<OwenS:#openttd>If you can build electrified rail from the rail menu, then it's enable
06:56<Progman:#openttd>artur: did you start a new game or load an old one?
06:56<artur:#openttd>i have started neo one and saved it
06:56<artur:#openttd>new*
06:56<Progman:#openttd>before or after you added the newgrf to the newgrf list?
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06:57<artur:#openttd>after saving
06:57<artur:#openttd>oh sorry
06:58<artur:#openttd>when i start new game the grfs are enabled
06:58<TrueBrain:#openttd>man hungry, man need food!
06:58<OwenS:#openttd>The NewGRF list is stored in the save file
07:00<artur:#openttd>Progman, can you show me screenshot of the electric depot?
07:01<Progman:#openttd>it looks basically the same as the non-electric depot
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07:02<artur:#openttd>what can be wrong?
07:02<Progman:#openttd>you must add the newgrf first and then begin a new game
07:02<Progman:#openttd>not the other way round
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07:06<artur:#openttd>Progman, http://wstaw.org/images/free/2008/12/23/748be0a388f11dbc691626cc34e125.png
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07:08<artur:#openttd>any ideas? Now i have loaded these files in main menu before starting new game.
07:09<Progman:#openttd>not sure if 0.6.3 already got the "multiple newgrf sets" option
07:09<Progman:#openttd>try to load only the TGV newgrf
07:10<artur:#openttd>still nothing
07:11<artur:#openttd>maybe update to new version helps
07:13<@Rubidium:#openttd>0.6.3 has no multiple newgrf sets
07:13<artur:#openttd>but i have the lastest stable version installed
07:14<artur:#openttd>Rubidium, ok, but when i laod only TGV grf i have not TGV
07:15<Progman:#openttd>you are sure you created a new game? do you see the normal trains again? did you hit the year 1989?
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07:17<artur:#openttd>when i create new game in 1989 i habe normal default trains.
07:17<artur:#openttd>have*
07:18<Progman:#openttd>use fast forward, maybe the train is introduced in the next months of 1989
07:21<artur:#openttd>no...
07:21<Progman:#openttd>then maybe this newgrf isn't supported for this openttd version
07:24<Progman:#openttd>no, the newgrf works in 0.6.3
07:24<Progman:#openttd>just tested it
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07:24<artur:#openttd>Progman, where have you downloaded it?
07:25<Progman:#openttd>first google hit
07:25*Rubidium:#openttd doesn't want any more Pressents :(
07:25<artur:#openttd>Progman, http://www.ben-wagner.de/ottd/pages/rails.php ?
07:27*Yorick:#openttd gives Rubidium coffee
07:27<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14726 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp network/network_client.cpp): -Fix (r14720): making new companies in network kinda failed...
07:27<Progman:#openttd>yes
07:28<artur:#openttd>Progman, i have the same file
07:30<Progman:#openttd>loaded the newgrf, start a new game with start year 1990, build a depot and then I see the TGV in the list
07:30<Progman:#openttd>so no problem here
07:31<artur:#openttd>i followed your steps, but without effects
07:34<artur:#openttd>I'm running linux
07:34<artur:#openttd>permissions are ok
07:35<Progman:#openttd>you see the SH '30' and SH '40' in the depot too?
07:35<Progman:#openttd>and the AsiaStar?
07:35<artur:#openttd>No.
07:36<Progman:#openttd>none of them?
07:36<artur:#openttd>Onlu Manley-Morel Dash Floss SH/Hendry SH 125 and UU 37
07:37<Progman:#openttd>it looks like you have electric tracks activated and you need to build an electric depot
07:37<Progman:#openttd>with the engines SH '30', SH '40, ... in it
07:37<artur:#openttd>all trains are diesel
07:37<Progman:#openttd>exactly
07:38<Progman:#openttd>hold the mouse button on the rail track menu item and select "electric raisl"
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07:39<Progman:#openttd>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Railway_Construction#Types_of_railways
07:40<artur:#openttd>Progman, Thanks a lot ;)
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08:20*dihedral:#openttd waves
08:21*Yorick:#openttd waves back
08:22<dihedral:#openttd>shut it
08:22<dihedral:#openttd>:-P
08:28<Yorick:#openttd>?
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09:11*Yorick:#openttd needs something small and bite-size to code
09:14<dihedral:#openttd>i know something
09:14<Yorick:#openttd>tell me
09:15<dihedral:#openttd>nope
09:15*Rubidium:#openttd also knows something
09:15<Yorick:#openttd>why not?
09:18<Yorick:#openttd>...
09:18<dihedral:#openttd>why should we?
09:19<Yorick:#openttd>why shouldn't you?
09:19<dihedral:#openttd>many reasons
09:19<Yorick:#openttd>any you are not going to tell those because of other reasons?
09:19<Yorick:#openttd>and*
09:20<dihedral:#openttd>Yorick, go outside and play!
09:21<Yorick:#openttd>it's 4 degrees outsie, and raining
09:21<dihedral:#openttd>so?
09:22<dihedral:#openttd>what are you? a wuss?
09:27<dihedral:#openttd>Yorick, implement erlang as console language
09:27<Gekz:#openttd>implement brainfuck as console language
09:27<Gekz:#openttd>or malborge
09:33<OwenS:#openttd>TCL would make an awesome console language :p
09:34<dihedral:#openttd>what do you wonder sometimes Yorick
09:34<Yorick:#openttd>yesterday I was an idiot, today I should go outside and play?
09:35<OwenS:#openttd>Only major gripe I have with TCL is no closures
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09:35<dihedral:#openttd>OwenS, take a look at http://svn.openttdcoop.org/tools/autopilot/ap+
09:35<dihedral:#openttd>ops
09:35<dihedral:#openttd>OwenS, take a look at http://svn.openttdcoop.org/tools/autopilot/branches/ap+
09:36<OwenS:#openttd>dihedral, What about it? :p
09:37<dihedral:#openttd>it's tcl
09:38<dihedral:#openttd>:-)
09:38<OwenS:#openttd>I know that :-)
09:38<dihedral:#openttd>shame - i was hoping you'd get excited and do some work for me :-D
09:39<OwenS:#openttd>I'd be more interested if it were Lua to be honest :p
09:41<dihedral:#openttd>yuck
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09:45<OwenS:#openttd>Luas a lovely language, except for the lack of curly braces
09:50<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>if you are into curls and braces, that makea you a pedophile.
09:50<valhallasw:#openttd>what's wrong with *not* having curly braces? :P
09:52<Alberth:#openttd>some people like to have curly braces so they can mess up their code formatting :P
09:52<Yorick:#openttd>it's smaller than "then .... end"
09:53<valhallasw:#openttd>it's larger than ':'
09:53<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>;)
09:53<OwenS:#openttd>Alberth, Actually I like Python also :p
09:54<@Belugas:#openttd>[09:22] <Yorick> it's 4 degrees outsie, and raining <-- I invite you in here. It's sunny, but it's -15
09:54<@Belugas:#openttd>muwhahhaa!~
09:55<@Belugas:#openttd>George, that's another problem. in fact, there are two problems, one I can fix. that action 3, nope, at least not at the moment
09:55<Yorick:#openttd>valhallasw: that's why I like python
09:55<@Belugas:#openttd>nor in the near futur :S
09:56<OwenS:#openttd>Then again, no language is like x86 assembly :p
09:56<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>we have no lovely snow :(
09:56<OwenS:#openttd>Nothing can get someone confused like movl 0(%eax, %ebx, 4), %ecx :p
09:59*Belugas:#openttd does not like Eddi|zuHause's lovely snow
09:59<Yorick:#openttd>how about print map(lambda x,f=lambda x,f:(x<=1) or (f(x-1,f)+f(x-2,f)): f(x,f),
09:59<Yorick:#openttd>range(10))
10:01<OwenS:#openttd>The difference is the first one has valid reason - the second is soley contrived with simpler ways to write it :P
10:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>how can functional programming not be a "valid reason"?
10:01<OwenS:#openttd>What isn't valid is having nested lambdas sharing the same parameter names :p
10:02<Sacro:#openttd>@seen ludde
10:02<@DorpsGek:#openttd>Sacro: ludde was last seen in #openttd 10 weeks, 2 days, 6 hours, 17 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <ludde> ;)
10:02<Sacro:#openttd>hmm, damn
10:02<Yorick:#openttd>OwnS: that's perfectly valid
10:03<Alberth:#openttd>OwenS: I once wrote a 2 page sed script to translate assembly language between different assemblers. I don't think it had a single complete word in it. It looked like an arbitrarily placed bunch of punctation
10:04<Alberth:#openttd>Yorick: would you write that in a production program?
10:04<Yorick:#openttd>if I need all primes < 1000, possible
10:04<OwenS:#openttd>Would you not be better off using nested NAMED functions, so people had a clue what you were doing? :p
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10:05<Yorick:#openttd>nah, just a comment
10:05<Alberth:#openttd>I would probably factor out the inner function to a seperate variable
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10:06<Yorick:#openttd>there's a mandelbrot oneliner too
10:07<Alberth:#openttd>well, I can write a large OpenTTD program in one line too, but that is not exactly production code
10:11<OwenS:#openttd>You can write an assembly oneliner as well, but it's not recomended. Assembly mandates comments :p
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10:15<Alberth:#openttd>you can? most assemblers assume 1 instruction per line iirc
10:16<OwenS:#openttd>GAS allows you to use semicolon delimiters
10:17<OwenS:#openttd>Primarily for people using GCC's asm() blocks
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10:23<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14727 /trunk/src/ (network/network_server.cpp settings.cpp): -Codechange: replace some magic numbers with a constant.
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10:39<OwenS:#openttd>Wtf? Why are magnets attracted to my keyboard?!
10:40<@Rubidium:#openttd>a proper keyboard would've that effect
10:40<OwenS:#openttd>Aah - just noticed it's the enter, space and numpad 0 keys
10:41<OwenS:#openttd>As in, the wide ones with extra parts underneath to make them not rock
10:41<petern:#openttd>believe it or not, there is metal in a keyboard...
10:41<OwenS:#openttd>Steel, iron or zinc? :p
10:42<@Belugas:#openttd>GOLD
10:43<@Rubidium:#openttd>http://www.popgadget.net/images/ibm%20keyboard.jpg <- those even have a steel backplate ;)
10:43<@Rubidium:#openttd>and are actually quite heavy
10:43<petern:#openttd>and are annoying
10:45<petern:#openttd># gooold fever
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11:33<dihedral:#openttd>i am having issues moving a non-dedicated server to another company
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11:33<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i cannot reproduce your problem :p
11:33<dihedral:#openttd>you want the patch?
11:34<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>no.
11:34<dihedral:#openttd>boring :-P
11:35<dihedral:#openttd>it works nice on dedicated games :-)
11:35<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i wouldn't see anything in there anyway... network is way too low level for me
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11:35<Yorick:#openttd>what's the error?
11:35<dihedral:#openttd>that i cannot move a non-dedicated company
11:35<dihedral:#openttd>there is no error
11:35<dihedral:#openttd>;-)
11:36<Yorick:#openttd>aha, non-dedicated server, you mean?
11:36<dihedral:#openttd>ah - yes
11:36<dihedral:#openttd>the playas on non-dedicated
11:36<Yorick:#openttd>did you try to implement the case?
11:36<dihedral:#openttd>ah well
11:37<dihedral:#openttd>no - i was just playing around with it in my head
11:37<Yorick:#openttd>if (_network_server) donotsendmovepacketbutinstantlymoveselfpossiblyneedingpassword()
11:37<petern:#openttd>if (_yorick) disconnect()
11:38<Yorick:#openttd>where's the patch? :p
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11:41<dihedral:#openttd>Yorick, forget it - i aint giving you my stuff
11:41<dihedral:#openttd>and yes - i know how to update the server, it just is not updating correctly!
11:41<dihedral:#openttd>and i know i dont send the packet
11:43<Yorick:#openttd>...just asking
11:43<@Belugas:#openttd>so.. Yorick, next time dihedral complains about a bug, just reply "You should know"
11:43<dihedral:#openttd>:-)
11:43<dihedral:#openttd>i'd prefer him not replying :-D
11:43<dihedral:#openttd>it's never really helpful anyway
11:44<Yorick:#openttd>it isn't if you don't listen
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11:54<dihedral:#openttd>got it
11:55<@Belugas:#openttd>Yorick, place dihedral on your ignore list ;)
11:55<Yorick:#openttd>Belugas: occasionally he says something nice
11:56<Yorick:#openttd>and I hate only seeing half converstations
11:56<dihedral:#openttd>curiosity is a bad friend :-D
11:56<svippery:#openttd>It is?
11:56<svippery:#openttd>Then we wouldn't have steam engines!
11:56<svippery:#openttd>And then what's the fun in OpenTTD?
11:57<Yorick:#openttd>there wouldn't be openttd!
11:57<svippery:#openttd>Exactly!
11:57<Yorick:#openttd>no one would have bought openttd, even not owen
11:57<Yorick:#openttd>ttd*
11:58<dihedral:#openttd>nobody bought it!
11:58<svippery:#openttd>\o/
11:58<svippery:#openttd>No one would ask themselves "what is this?"
11:58<dihedral:#openttd>and people buy games out of boredom
11:58<dihedral:#openttd>:-P
11:58<Yorick:#openttd>maybe you do
11:58<Yorick:#openttd>I don't
11:58<dihedral:#openttd>i dont buy games
11:58<dihedral:#openttd>i dont play games
11:58<Yorick:#openttd>then how do you know?
11:58<dihedral:#openttd>at least not computer games
11:58<Yorick:#openttd>and why are you here?
11:58<svippery:#openttd>In other words you are never bored, dihedral.
11:59<@Belugas:#openttd>[11:56] <dihedral> curiosity is a bad friend :-D <--- lol... Look who is talking !!!
11:59<dihedral:#openttd>Yorick, i am old enough to say that as many years ago as you are old, i used to play games
11:59<dihedral:#openttd>Belugas, shhh
11:59<dihedral:#openttd>:-D
11:59<@orudge:#openttd>Yorick: well, I bought normal TTD
12:00<Yorick:#openttd>"ttd*"
12:00<@orudge:#openttd>obviously, OpenTTD is open source
12:01<@orudge:#openttd>but if something like TTD were to be, say, re-released on Steam for £5 or so, then I imagine a good few people would buy it
12:01<@orudge:#openttd>(obviously in a way that has it working on modern systems)
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12:09<svippy:#openttd>O_O Why are my oil wells disappearing!?
12:10<Yorick:#openttd>well...they all disappear after 1975 or so
12:10<Yorick:#openttd>they can't increase production
12:10<svippy:#openttd>O: Noooo!
12:10<Yorick:#openttd>but the oil rigs are still there ;)
12:10<svippy:#openttd>Damn oil crises of the 1970s!
12:10<svippy:#openttd>But they still drill in Alaska!
12:11<svippy:#openttd>It is unrealistic that they disappear.
12:11<Yorick:#openttd>quiet
12:11<svippy:#openttd>They should just appear elsewhere.
12:11<Yorick:#openttd>I think they do
12:11<Yorick:#openttd>but they just can't increase production
12:11<Yorick:#openttd>and Belugas has something with realistic
12:12<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14728 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp:
12:12<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2470]: don't select anything when opening the client list.
12:12<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Fix: don't show clients that are "only" in the lobby.
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12:14<@Belugas:#openttd>shut up svippy. You are just making the point of the expression "But it's unrealistic" even more evident. As soon as you (users) feel somehow disavantaged (?) by a feature of the game, you are yelling at the unrealistic god
12:15<petern:#openttd>the grid is unrealistic
12:15<@Belugas:#openttd>if you really crave about realism, why not add a feature that would make it so the bridges wold take 2-3 years to be built?
12:15<@Belugas:#openttd>that too, petern
12:15<petern:#openttd>the fact it's a game is unrealistic!
12:15<@Rubidium:#openttd>multiple managers per company is unrealistic!
12:15<svippy:#openttd>No no, Belugas.
12:16<svippy:#openttd>I want a reason why the oil is decreasing.
12:16<petern:#openttd>Rubidium, er, no it's not :D
12:16<svippy:#openttd>Honestly, I don't care that much about realism.
12:16<petern:#openttd>17:11 < svippy> It is unrealistic that they disappear.
12:16<svippy:#openttd>I realise I said that.
12:16<svippy:#openttd>And I take it back.
12:16<petern:#openttd>:D
12:16<@Belugas:#openttd>they are programmed to disappear to leave the way for the oil rigs
12:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>petern: well... whatever you call the highest boss of a company then
12:21<svippy:#openttd>Why, Belugas?
12:22<@Belugas:#openttd>why what?
12:22<Yorick:#openttd>svippy: because they are and it's not going to be changed because one could do that with a newgrf
12:25<@Belugas:#openttd>ho.. why do they dissapear that way to leave place for oil rigs... welll.. Chris Sawyer programme thm like that. It makes sens ifyou see TTD as a dynamic game and not a static one.
12:26<@Belugas:#openttd>furthermore, oil wells do leave the place to oil rigs in reality too... although not at the rate that is programmed in TTD
12:26<@Belugas:#openttd>and as Yorick says, it will not change, unless agrf does so
12:27<petern:#openttd>it does it because that's the way it is
12:27<petern:#openttd>gameplay ftw :D
12:27<@Belugas:#openttd>yup yup yup
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12:41<@Belugas:#openttd>oh... late... should grab my lunch :S
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13:02<svippy:#openttd>Is it possible to buy ownership of a road from a town?
13:03<petern:#openttd>no
13:03<Yorick:#openttd>no
13:03<svippy:#openttd>:(
13:03<svippy:#openttd>;-; And they won't let me remove it.
13:03<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you need to enable "allow removal of town owned roads" in the advanced settings, and have a good rating
13:08<@Belugas:#openttd>[13:03] <svippy> Is it possible to buy ownership of a road from a town? <--- incredible.. that would be so unrealistic...
13:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd># Ja, ja, wunderbar. Tolle Rede Mann.
13:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd># Hört' ich dich nicht mal sagen dich läßt jede ran?
13:14<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd># Und jetzt schau dich an, wo bist du hingekommen.
13:14<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd># Du sagst dir, sie ist WEG. Und hat mich mitgenommen.
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13:33<Wolf01:#openttd>hello
13:33<svippy:#openttd><@Belugas> [13:03] <svippy> Is it possible to buy ownership of a road from a town? <--- incredible.. that would be so unrealistic... << Good observation.
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14:31<George:#openttd>Belugas: May be new callbacks would be asier to do?
14:32<@Belugas:#openttd>i guess so, George
14:33<@Belugas:#openttd>just that i'm not in the mood to even consider starting working on it. Nor hving the patience etc etc...
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14:36<George:#openttd>Well, It is impotant to me to choose the right direction. What about a chance to allow more than 512 houses from different GRFs, having 256 houses per GRF file?
14:36<@Belugas:#openttd>more than 512? impossible
14:36<George:#openttd>what causes this limitation?
14:37<@Rubidium:#openttd>bits on the map array
14:37<@Belugas:#openttd>yup
14:37<@Rubidium:#openttd>and wasting lots of them for allowing more houses
14:38<@Rubidium:#openttd>and 128 houses (with recolours) should be quite enough I reckon
14:38<George:#openttd>Well, then the callbacks are the best solution.
14:38<@Belugas:#openttd>plus, consider the fact that you have 512 in total, including the initial 110
14:39<George:#openttd>Rubidium: Unless you plan to have different special houses like hotels, petrol stations, car shops, post offices and so on, using at least 9 IDs per type :(
14:39<@Belugas:#openttd>you know, you do not really ned that kind of scheme
14:40<George:#openttd>Belugas: I see. So, I have to wait for callbacks and plan houses to have them in the future
14:40<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>can't those be industries instead?
14:41<George:#openttd>Belugas: When I have name and capacity callbacks - yes, I do not nead much. But without - what to do with names?
14:41<@Belugas:#openttd>you could specify the display based on some variables, after all, it's nothing more than displays.. agreed, the ame can be callback'ed, as well as population
14:42<@Belugas:#openttd>oh... welll.. it might be relatively trivial to do
14:42<George:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: No, please, not like that. I plan to make banks as houses :)
14:43<George:#openttd>Cool :) <@Belugas> oh... welll.. it might be relatively trivial to do
14:44<George:#openttd>When, one more thing if possible. house var 41 is byte. Could it be done word or dword?
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14:52<@Belugas:#openttd>don't have the slightest idea right now
14:52<@Belugas:#openttd>you'd bette add it to the opened FS callback stuff you've done lately
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15:01<@Belugas:#openttd>George: answer is no. Once more, becasue of the bits of the map (var41 that is)
15:03<George:#openttd>Belugas: I supposed that answer. Well, that only means I have to anmation stage as information holder. I hoped not to use this solution, but I see no other
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15:08<George:#openttd>I hope providing animation, stoping it after the house is build and setting var 16 to 63 wouuld not be the CPU eater.
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15:30<@Belugas:#openttd>why do you need to have var41 bigger then 256 then??
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15:34<fjb:#openttd>Hello
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15:43<OwenS:#openttd>Is there any way to turn off train reversing at signals?
15:44<OwenS:#openttd>And I mean when sitting at reds for a while
15:44<@Belugas:#openttd>playing with planes, maybe?
15:44<OwenS:#openttd>Planes have too little infrastructure :p
15:45<@Rubidium:#openttd>ofcourse there's a way to stop reversing trains... but it's unlikely that you'll like it
15:45<OwenS:#openttd>And that is?
15:46<OwenS:#openttd>Other than not using them :p
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15:47<@Rubidium:#openttd>messing with the source code and compiling yourself
15:48<OwenS:#openttd>In that case I'm gonna have to compose a "Trains never turn arround at red signals" patch
15:49<OwenS:#openttd>(Switchable, of course)
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15:50<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14729 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: writing a single char to the config file caused reading outside a buffer.
15:52<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14730 /trunk/src/network/ (9 files in 2 dirs):
15:52<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Codechange: remove the need for networkclientsockets and networkclientinfo structs to be in a contiguous piece of memory and put them in a pool.
15:52<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Note: 255 should really be enough for now... making it any more means network protocol bumps.
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15:54<yorick:#openttd>:O
15:55*yorick:#openttd hugs Rubidium
15:55<yorick:#openttd>255 max clients
15:57<petern:#openttd>is that all? :o
15:57<@Rubidium:#openttd>nah ;)
15:57<yorick:#openttd>it does not have to be all
15:57-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
15:58<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14731 /trunk/src/network/ (network.cpp network_udp.cpp): -Fix: don't initialise UDP multiple times without closing it.
16:00<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>OwenS: this functionality is implemented for the new path signals, but not for the old block signals
16:01<yorick:#openttd>what's the max value for an int?
16:02<SmatZ:#openttd>yorick: depends on your architecture
16:02<yorick:#openttd>windows i383?
16:02<yorick:#openttd>686*
16:03<SmatZ:#openttd>2 ** 31 - 1
16:03<yorick:#openttd>thanks :)
16:03<SmatZ:#openttd>:)
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16:03<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14732 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp graph_gui.cpp settings.cpp town.h): -Codechange: replace some magic number with less magic constants and use the proper type for a few variables.
16:05<OwenS:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause, The problem I have is trains at block signals reversing into a backwards path signal and getting stuck!
16:05<+glx:#openttd>SmatZ: isn't it 2**32-1 ?
16:06<yorick:#openttd>int, not uint, glx ;)
16:06<OwenS:#openttd>glx, Is your integer signed or unsigned? :p
16:06<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>OwenS: only use path signals...
16:06<OwenS:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause, not a solution, block signals have uses also
16:06<SmatZ:#openttd>@calc 2 ** 31 - 1
16:06<@DorpsGek:#openttd>SmatZ: 2147483647
16:06<yorick:#openttd>is that all :(
16:06<SmatZ:#openttd>glx: it is this ^^^ :)
16:06<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>unless you convert old savegames, i have not found any need to use block signals anymore
16:06<yorick:#openttd>@calc 2 ** 63 - 1
16:06<@DorpsGek:#openttd>yorick: 9223372036854775808
16:06<yorick:#openttd>ooh :o
16:06<OwenS:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause, In combination with pre signals?
16:07-!-svippery [~svip@0x50a5b14e.boanxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
16:07<OwenS:#openttd>Pre signals still work better than path signals in many situations
16:07<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>not in my experience
16:07<petern:#openttd>only for stupid things like load balancers
16:07-!-George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:07<OwenS:#openttd>And pre signal bypass stations
16:08<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>by-what?
16:08<OwenS:#openttd>bypass.
16:09<OwenS:#openttd>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Presignal_Bypass_Station
16:09<petern:#openttd>see
16:09-!-Ruudjah|energetic [~a@ip82-139-118-117.lijbrandt.net] has left #openttd []
16:09<petern:#openttd>anything with 'openttdcoop' in it is not likely to be a valid used of signals ;P
16:10<petern:#openttd>oh look, it's not
16:10<George3:#openttd>Belugas: if I code view with animation, then I use it's data instead of age data. But if not and I specify house view according to the age and current date, than a view may suddenly change (because cur_year - age will change)
16:10<petern:#openttd>now, when we make signals follow reachable tracks only... mwhahahaha
16:11<SmatZ:#openttd>petern: how is your "programmable signals" patch going?
16:11<OwenS:#openttd>petern, that would just be evil
16:12<OwenS:#openttd>Unless you develop a give priority to traffic ahead signal
16:12<petern:#openttd>was i writing such a thing?
16:12<yorick:#openttd>they did evil stuff before ;)
16:12<yorick:#openttd>was he writing such a thing?
16:12<SmatZ:#openttd>petern: I thought so...
16:12<petern:#openttd>(i had waypoint restrictions going, not programmable signals)
16:12<SmatZ:#openttd>ahh... sorry then :-x
16:12<petern:#openttd>maybe it did but i forgot about it? :p
16:12<petern:#openttd>don't think so though
16:12<SmatZ:#openttd>:-)
16:13<OwenS:#openttd>I ought to start developing my programmable signals patch again...
16:13<OwenS:#openttd>Though I'd guess path signals means the signalling infrastructure is radically different?
16:13<petern:#openttd>yes, if only because it would avoid those ugly constructions you have there
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16:15<OwenS:#openttd>petern: Thats unlikely :(
16:20<fjb:#openttd>Hm, that pre signal bypass station is not needed with path signals. There are simply no signals at the entrance of a platform.
16:20<OwenS:#openttd>fjb, the problem is then two trains can't take the same route
16:20<OwenS:#openttd>The bypass indicates that there are stations free ahead even when the train would normally make a route red
16:21<OwenS:#openttd>Let me put it this way - theres no other way to slam 503 trains through one station
16:24<fjb:#openttd>I still see no reason for that construction with path signals. You would not have any signal right at the entrance of the platforms. So two trains follow each other at the distance of the signals.
16:25<OwenS:#openttd>fjb: Multiple path signals cascaded doesn't work as free platform information doesn't cascade like it does with pre signals
16:27<fjb:#openttd>The trains follow each other. I see no reason to cascade signals. You will have to do that when you are using presignals.
16:27<OwenS:#openttd>Two trains can't reserve a route over the same tile with path signals - thus they can't follow each other like they do with PSB
16:29<fjb:#openttd>I don't see where the same tile would be reserved in your example above.
16:29<OwenS:#openttd>With PSB, the bypass track allows the signals to remain green even when a train is on that path
16:30<fjb:#openttd>A path gets only reserved to the next signal, not to the end of the line.
16:31<Aali:#openttd>this is a silly argument
16:31<Aali:#openttd>fjb: you're wrong
16:31<OwenS:#openttd>Yes - but if you put multiple path signals in sequence, trains can still go down the route when there are no free platforms!
16:32<Aali:#openttd>presignal bypass is more efficient than anything you could do with PBS
16:32<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>fjb: scenario: platform 8 and 11 are free, first train reserves path to platform 8, the second train tries to reserver path to 11, but cannot, until the first train has left the entrance area
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16:33<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>distance between entry signal and platform 8 is much higher than regular signal distance
16:33<OwenS:#openttd>If you cascade the signals, trains can now try to go to platform 7 - which is occupied
16:33<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>there is a quite easy solution, though
16:33<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>just have multiple paths
16:34<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>if you triple track the station entrance, the size of the station does not even increase
16:34<OwenS:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause, you now end up with a bigger station than with pre signal bypass for the same quantity of entering trains
16:35<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i don't see how this can be significantly bigger
16:35<OwenS:#openttd>And those paths have to cross at some point
16:35<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>no, why would they?
16:35<OwenS:#openttd>At the point when they turn to enter the platforms
16:36<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>make the left entry the one with the lowest pathfinder penalty
16:36<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>trains will reserve the left entry to the first free platform
16:36<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>second train cannot reserve the left entry, so it tries the next one, to the second free platform
16:37<OwenS:#openttd>Then, when the first one is finished, another train tries to reserve the same entry and finds it blocked by a reservation of the second or third train
16:37<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>third train can still reserve the third entry to the third free platform. meanwhile the first train will have reached its platform and one of the early platforms is likely to be freed also
16:37<OwenS:#openttd>PSB still has a higher entrance capacity however
16:38<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you might have slight inefficiencies when filling the station, and you can remove paths from the secondary entrance to the first few platforms
16:39<OwenS:#openttd>And things start getting pathologically large when you have three tracks entering the station
16:39<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>so once a train takes the secondary path, it is guaranteed that a significant number of platforms are available for the fourth train
16:39<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>why? you have now the equivalent of three tracks for your weird signal infrastructure
16:40<OwenS:#openttd>But the infrastructure track can be shared
16:41<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>err... what??
16:41<@Belugas:#openttd>boooo.. argument of an hypothetic situation!
16:41<@Belugas:#openttd>not even in trunk, not even debugged, not even clean..
16:42<OwenS:#openttd>What isn't?
16:42*Belugas:#openttd applaudes a whole fucking lot
16:42<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i have no idea what you mean by "shared"
16:42<OwenS:#openttd>In any case, is there actually a good reason for trains to reverse at block signals?
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16:43<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes, it was, during a time where all signals were two way
16:43<OwenS:#openttd>And now it's not...
16:43<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>so lockups could be automatically resolved
16:43<OwenS:#openttd>Really that logic should be removed from 1 way signals
16:44<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>anyway, this has been discussed so many times... but nobody actually provided a patch to port the new path signal setting behaviour to the block signals
16:48*Belugas:#openttd searches the path to his bed in the snow
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16:50<Aali:#openttd>the solution doesn't have to be "turn off all train reversing"
16:51<Aali:#openttd>another solution would be to make trains in PBS blocks look both ways for a path no matter which way they're pointing
16:52<OwenS:#openttd>Aali, it may just be easier to turn off train reversing at 1 way signals
16:53<Aali:#openttd>easier, sure, but is it the right solution?
16:59<@Darkvater:#openttd>evening
17:00<SmatZ:#openttd>evening, Darkvater :)
17:00<@Darkvater:#openttd>so, what did I miss? :)
17:00<@Darkvater:#openttd>hi SmatZ
17:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>http://www.openttd.org/en/server/5325 ? ;)
17:01<SmatZ:#openttd>hard to say :) not much, compared to months you were gone :-)
17:01<@Darkvater:#openttd>touche
17:01<@Darkvater:#openttd>I had to finish up some things first before I could get back to openttd
17:01-!-George3 is now known as George
17:01<SmatZ:#openttd>:-)
17:02<@Darkvater:#openttd>now I am in a dilemma whether I should do ottd first or create a printable album
17:03<@Rubidium:#openttd>printable album?
17:03<@Darkvater:#openttd>hema album
17:03<@Darkvater:#openttd>digital pictures > album > print
17:05<@Rubidium:#openttd>I reckon that'd take quite a bit of time to make
17:06<fjb:#openttd> I vote for doing ottd first.
17:06<@Darkvater:#openttd>1 or 2 days
17:07<@Darkvater:#openttd>it's nothing compared to creating a DVD from childhood 8mm movies
17:07<@Darkvater:#openttd>took me months
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17:07<OwenS:#openttd>8mm? film?
17:07*Darkvater:#openttd slaps OwenS
17:07<@Darkvater:#openttd>personal 8mm film
17:08<@Darkvater:#openttd>from when Darkvater was very very small :)
17:08<OwenS:#openttd>I gathered it was 8mm film
17:08<@Darkvater:#openttd>why the questionmark then? ;)
17:08<OwenS:#openttd>Checking it was film :p
17:08<@Darkvater:#openttd>hehe
17:08<OwenS:#openttd>You didn't throw away the film did you? Cause doing so would be a waste of analogue quality
17:08<OwenS:#openttd>(Assuming the camera was good :P )
17:08<@Darkvater:#openttd>no, I still have it
17:09<@Darkvater:#openttd>hoping to do a full-resolution stop-scan someday
17:09<@Darkvater:#openttd>and transfer the whole thing to blu-ray in full-HD
17:09<OwenS:#openttd>I'd go for 1080p, but my CPU just can't handle H.264 1080p
17:10<OwenS:#openttd>Well, it can. Sometimes.
17:10<yorick:#openttd>oh, DV is back :)
17:10<OwenS:#openttd>But it's pointless me watching something in 1080p when it gets downscaled to 720p anyway to fit my monitor (width)
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17:10<@Darkvater:#openttd>I didn't know but 8mm has a full resolution of some 3000x2000 pixels
17:11<OwenS:#openttd>Just goes to show that IMAX has insane resolution with 75mm film :p
17:12<OwenS:#openttd>Ever seen the bulb for one of them things? Drop it and it explodes on you
17:13<OwenS:#openttd>The IMAX projector technicians have to wear body armour when handling them
17:14<@Darkvater:#openttd>:)
17:17*yorick:#openttd wonders how rubidium got 15 companies
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17:19<planetmaker:#openttd>Rubidium: is that really 256 clients per server?
17:20<@Rubidium:#openttd>nope
17:20<planetmaker:#openttd>oh...
17:20<planetmaker:#openttd>255? :P
17:20<@Rubidium:#openttd>something like that yes
17:21<planetmaker:#openttd>I love you! What a nice christmas present! :)
17:21<planetmaker:#openttd>(platonically)^^
17:22<fjb:#openttd>A platonical christmas present?
17:22<planetmaker:#openttd>yep :)
17:22<planetmaker:#openttd>:P
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17:25<@Darkvater:#openttd>ooh; what happened?
17:25<@Darkvater:#openttd>we can connect 255 clients now instead of 16?
17:26<@Rubidium:#openttd>oh yorick... you shouldn't try to join a server when you don't have the patch to join it
17:26<dihedral:#openttd>:-D
17:26<dihedral:#openttd>lol
17:26<dihedral:#openttd>Rubidium, that is prb his bot
17:26<petern:#openttd>instead of 11
17:27<yorick:#openttd>dihedral: it isn't ;)
17:28<dihedral:#openttd>hehe
17:28<yorick:#openttd>that one would have successfully joined
17:28-!-svippy [~svip@0x50a5b14e.boanxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
17:29<dihedral:#openttd>Rubidium, quite some nice work you have done
17:30*Darkvater:#openttd updates wc
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17:34*yorick:#openttd agrees
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17:37<petern:#openttd>doesn't Rubidium always good nice work?
17:37<petern:#openttd>what
17:37<petern:#openttd>s/good/do
17:39<dihedral:#openttd>petern, yes, but i am dont follow noai, newgrf, economy stuff as closely
17:40<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you people had too much to drink...
17:45<@Rubidium:#openttd>really? I'm still thirsty
17:46*planetmaker:#openttd hands Rubidium a bottle of cool beer
17:46<planetmaker:#openttd>(we're not on a small island after all ;) )
17:47<@Rubidium:#openttd>"bier is vies"
17:47<dihedral:#openttd>bier auf wein, das ist fein
17:47<@Darkvater:#openttd>holy fuck
17:47<dihedral:#openttd>wein auf bier, das rat' ich dir
17:47<@Darkvater:#openttd>no updates for 2 days and +-20 commits already
17:47<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i remember that phrase differently...
17:48<planetmaker:#openttd>:)
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17:49<dihedral:#openttd>i am looking forward to tomorrows nightly :-D
17:50<planetmaker:#openttd>so am i
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17:51*fjb:#openttd is still playing r14579-noai-cargodest. :-)
17:52<planetmaker:#openttd>fjb: I guess for SP these commits don't change much :)
17:53<fjb:#openttd>Yexo's AdmiralAI changed much.
17:56<planetmaker:#openttd>true
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i have not tried any of the AIs yet
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17:59<fjb:#openttd>One of the AIs in my current game is as good as I am. I bought 50% shares of that company and its value has more than doubled since then.
18:00<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Hello all
18:00<fjb:#openttd>Hello Nite_Owl
18:00<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Hello fjb
18:00<fjb:#openttd>And the game started in 1931.
18:00<fjb:#openttd>Sorry, 1831.
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18:03<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i still do not see any sense in the shares system
18:05<fjb:#openttd>I can get a lot of money without doing anything.
18:06<petern:#openttd>only if you sell them
18:06<fjb:#openttd>Yes, but till then the other company works for me.
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18:21<svippy:#openttd>:(
18:21<petern:#openttd>):
18:21<svippy:#openttd>http://www.isarapix.org/pix66/1230074373.png
18:21<svippy:#openttd>\o/
18:21<svippy:#openttd>I am doing terrible, right?
18:22<petern:#openttd>yup
18:22<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i've seen worse
18:22<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but what exactly do you mean?
18:22<svippy:#openttd>I am thinking... my station structure.
18:22<svippy:#openttd>It is not efficient.
18:23<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>that might be true
18:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i'd try smoothing out the curves first
18:24<svippy:#openttd>I have tried.
18:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i try to avoid 2x45° turns
18:24<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i try to have at least 3 diagonal sections
18:24<fjb:#openttd>Doesn't differ that much from my first game.
18:25<svippy:#openttd>Yes, Eddi|zuHause, I try that, but often there isn't room.
18:25<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but in several instances in your picture it is possible
18:25<svippy:#openttd>Such as?
18:26<svippy:#openttd>I see the solution by the train depot on the right.
18:26<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>on the left
18:27<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>the track that goes under the bridge has a switch right behind the bridge
18:27<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>and the track coming over the bridge also has a narrow curve
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18:28<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>terminal stations are hard to get efficient without path signals
18:29<svippy:#openttd>"path signals"?
18:29<svippy:#openttd>Is that a patch?
18:29<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>they are a quite new development, available in the nightlies
18:29<svippy:#openttd>I am using a nightly.
18:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>did you enable the signal GUI?
18:30<svippy:#openttd>Yes.
18:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>there are 6 signal types in there, on the left, the basic block signals, then 3 types of block presignals, and then 2 types of path signals
18:31<svippy:#openttd>Yes yes.
18:31<svippy:#openttd>I knew them as PBS.
18:31<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>yes, that stands for "path based signals"
18:32<svippy:#openttd>It all makes sense now.
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18:37<Wolf01:#openttd>'night all
18:37<svippery:#openttd>Thank you, Eddi|zuHause, that really did improve the efficiency. I totally forgot how to use them.
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18:38<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you can also set that you build path signals by default
18:38<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>for most mortals, they behave better in every situation
18:40<svippery:#openttd>Any situation where regular signals would be an advantage?
18:40-!-svippy [~svip@0x50a5b14e.boanxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:40<OwenS:#openttd>There are some
18:41<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>only for non-mortals :p
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18:41<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>or openttdcoop, as they call themselves :p
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18:43<fjb:#openttd>That pre signal thing reminds me of Intel Netburst architecture...
18:43<OwenS:#openttd>You mean, Intel's 32 stage pipeline mistake?
18:43<fjb:#openttd>Yes.
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18:44<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i have no idea what that is
18:44<OwenS:#openttd>Netburst? Pentium 4
18:44<fjb:#openttd>Pentium 4.
18:45<OwenS:#openttd>Should probably have been called Pentium 4ail
18:46<fjb:#openttd>No, the goal was to have the highest clock speed. And it reacched that.
18:46<OwenS:#openttd>It's goal was to get to 10Ghz
18:46<OwenS:#openttd>It didn't
18:46<fjb:#openttd>I don't think that was their true goal.
18:46<OwenS:#openttd>It was said, when the Netburst architecture was designed, it would be able to reach 10Ghz
18:46<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>so, what does a presignal have to do with a pentium 4?
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18:46<fjb:#openttd>But look at the structure size at the time Netburst was invented.
18:47<OwenS:#openttd>It didn't - because, unbeknownst to Intel at the time, once you shrink your silicon to 90nm, leakage current goes through the roof
18:48<fjb:#openttd>They tried to squeeze as may instructions as possible through one core. A better solution is to divide the load to more cores.
18:49*OwenS:#openttd hates multi cores
18:49<fjb:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: Is you question answered now?
18:49<OwenS:#openttd>Multi cores - like stupidly long pipelines - follow the law of diminishing returns
18:49<fjb:#openttd>Multi cores rule as soon as you have different things to do at the same time.
18:50<OwenS:#openttd>But who does?
18:50<@Rubidium:#openttd>they should just use multiple cores to allow to round robin cheaply and then cool it passively
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18:50<OwenS:#openttd>Once you've reached dual core, outside of specialist applications - video encoding, compiling, some scientific stuff - not much can use them
18:50<@Rubidium:#openttd>and multicore seems to be the perfect solution for OSes that can't properly scale CPU usage of run-away applications
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18:51<OwenS:#openttd>I'll never understand how Windows manages it...
18:52<@Rubidium:#openttd>OwenS: but... most applications that don't use multiple cores don't need lots of CPU either (500 MHz is more than enough for most of them)
18:52<OwenS:#openttd>Rubidium, you mean like most 3D games?
18:53<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>those already use "multiple" cores... one CPU and one GPU
18:53<OwenS:#openttd>A GTX280 contains 128 shader units. But, shader units are not like CPUs very much at all
18:54<fjb:#openttd>But what I really tried to say is that instead of squeezing 503 trains through one station it would be better to have the load divided to more stations, preferably all over the map.
18:54<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>but the number of applications itself does not say anything... it should be weighted by user time
18:54<OwenS:#openttd>fjb, but that would be no fun! ;-)
18:55<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>how many applications need more calculation time than the user needs to react to the application's output
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18:55<fjb:#openttd>I see no fun in the usual "all things go to just one industry" scenario. That looks boring.
18:56<OwenS:#openttd>The fun in it is shoving everything through one industry
18:56<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>oh... you are talking about THAT presignal thing
18:56<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>why didn't you say that right from the beginning
18:57<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>now i actually understand what you meant :p
18:57<@Rubidium:#openttd>OwenS: use ships
18:58<OwenS:#openttd>Rubidium, ships are slow
18:58<@Rubidium:#openttd>but a gazillion can load/unload at a single tile
18:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>says the guy with the escher-like canal system :p
18:58<fjb:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: You were talking about strange ottdcoop things. :-)
18:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>fjb: well, yes, but that was too far out of context
18:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>fjb: my mental focus is not on this chat, currently
18:59<@Rubidium:#openttd>so if you can't place enough stations close enough, you can always let the ships transport the last small bit to the industry
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19:00<OwenS:#openttd>Other problem with ships is we have 203 of them on short haul routes... and theyre already cosnuming 80% of my CPU
19:00<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you can place an insane amount of stations near an industry, with station walking
19:00<OwenS:#openttd>(Well, one of my cores)
19:00<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>the problem is, you can only use two pickup stations
19:00*Rubidium:#openttd doesn't have any CPU problems with 500 ships
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19:01<OwenS:#openttd>Well, 71% CPU at 203 ships, 1000 trains, YAPF
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19:03<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14733 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp network/network_server.cpp): -Fix (r14730): creating new companies didn't always work as expected.
19:08<dihedral:#openttd>aye :-P
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19:12<dihedral:#openttd>thank you Rubidium
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19:19<fjb:#openttd>AdmiralAI starts to annoy me. It has the habit to excessively build unconnectable stations.
19:20<dihedral:#openttd>hihi
19:21<fjb:#openttd>There are lots of stations around every industry now. Hard to connect anything at all.
19:22<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>wuhai... new buffy
19:22*fjb:#openttd likes the old one.
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19:23<dihedral:#openttd>strings like Game Paused (incoming client) could be moved to lang files, no?
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19:25<CIA-1:#openttd>OpenTTD: smatz * r14734 /trunk/src/ (ai/default/default.cpp company_base.h economy.cpp): -Codechange: type of bankrupt_asked is CompanyMask, not byte
19:25<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd># Ich bin der Rock'n'Roll Überkater
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19:37<svippery:#openttd>I suppose the towns only get really big if you start early.
19:38<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>cities get big very fast when you have many stations
19:38<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>a bus or tram system usually helps there
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 24 00:00:27 2008