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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-01-01

---Logopened Thu Jan 01 00:00:42 2009
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03:22-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
03:31<petern>heh
03:31<goodger>hello petern
03:31<petern>"They said the law, which makes it illegal to discriminate against gay applicants, went against their beliefs."
03:31<goodger>burn them!
03:31<petern>which is precisely why the law is there...
03:32<goodger>indeed so.
03:32<petern>yeah, burn the catholics!
03:32<goodger>heh
03:32<petern>oh wait, that was a few hundred years ago
03:32<goodger>"cold is God's way of telling us to burn more Catholics!"
03:32<goodger>I recommend burning many of them nowadays
03:33<petern>yeah, i believe that too
03:33<goodger>they are largely responsible, for instance, for the AIDS plague in Africa
03:33<petern>unfortunately there are laws against my beliefs!
03:33<goodger>indeed
03:33<petern>responsible for?
03:34<goodger>yes. the pope sits, year after year, wearing his silly hat, and telling people never to use condoms
03:34<goodger>and, resultantly, practically everyone in subsaharan africa does not use a condom
03:34<petern>ah yes
03:34<goodger>and, resultantly, what seems like all of them have contracted HIV
03:36<goodger>hmm... dissecting the events of my novel into bullet points, it seems that the parts _shown_ in the novel are about 30% of the story
03:36<goodger>so I had better learn how to write exposition.
03:38<petern>hmm
03:38<petern>start with the e :)
03:39<goodger>indeed...
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04:35<petern>argh
04:35<petern>tesco need shooting
04:35<petern>the local one is closed, and there is a sign that says
04:35<petern>"You're local Express Store will be open as normal"
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04:38<goodger>petern: it is new year's day, after all
04:39<goodger>do you even have a local tesco express? we don't...
04:39<goodger>we have a coop, and they're closed
04:42<petern>yeah
04:42<petern>we do
04:43<petern>but it was the "You're" :o
04:43<goodger>oh, I see
04:43<goodger>that's just the store managers
04:43<goodger>poor grammar is a by-product of stupidity, which is required to desire/attain employment at Tesco
04:47<petern>no
04:47<petern>it's a big printed sign
04:47<petern>not hand written :)
04:47<goodger>even stupid people have access to printers in these, the late 2000s
04:47<petern>i see
04:48<+dihedral>i always preferred saisburry's
04:48<petern>one that prints full colour on a 4m x 1m (ish) canvas?
04:48<goodger>yep
04:49<goodger>no point in making such signs centrally and shipping them from cheshunt at short notice
04:49<petern>the sainsbury's here sucks
04:49<goodger>all sainsburys suck
04:49<goodger>sainsbury in general sucks
04:49<petern>not been in any others recently, heh
04:49<petern>(recently being about 10 years)
04:50<goodger>sainsbury has forgotten how to be sainsbury
04:50<goodger>they're trying to be wal-mart, but they don't have the floor space
04:51<petern>hehe
04:51<petern>our sainsburys had refurbishment in 2005
04:51-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-233-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
04:51<petern>there was absolutely no difference except to the entrance and exit areas
04:52<Wolf01>hello!
04:52<goodger>heh
04:52<goodger>hello wolf
04:52<goodger>01
04:52<goodger>damn
04:52<goodger>hello Wolf01
04:52<Wolf01>:)
04:52<petern>"Customers at the new-look store will benefit from a brand new delicatessen, a new ATM and a new kiosk."
04:52<petern>£2.5 million for that...
04:52<goodger>*nod*
04:54<goodger>that will soon be worth three euros and sixty-nine cents
04:58<+dihedral>petern, in oxford there was a really nice sainsburry's i used to go to - tesco's there really sucked :-P
04:59<+dihedral>it was alway to crammed full to suit my shopping taste :-P
04:59<+dihedral>and some of their products were really horrible (imo)
04:59<+dihedral>but, that is a few years ago no
04:59<+dihedral>w
05:05*goodger has finished repairing his firefox profile and cursing mozcorp extensively
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05:13<goodger>hrrm
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05:16<goodger>hrrrm!
05:19<petern>gah
05:19<petern>system crawling :o
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05:24<goodger>one of my friends wanted more murders in the book (he specified 9001, in fact), so I started by naming a character after him and having them murdered
05:24<goodger>this was inexplicably considered odd behaviour
05:31<petern>hah
05:33<+dihedral>i would consider it some very good humor :-)
05:34<goodger>I'm sure you would
05:34<goodger>perhaps a chat room full of transport simulator enthusiasts is not the best target for such discussion
05:35<+dihedral>:-P
05:35<+dihedral>hehe - i see Muxy had some joins..
05:35<+dihedral>he started sending me emails
05:35<+dihedral>just as "fierce" as his forum replies - LOL
05:35<goodger>eh?
05:36<+dihedral>just some kid getting irate over nothing
05:36<goodger>what was the nothing in question?
05:36<goodger>I could do with some moderate amusement
05:36<+dihedral>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=41099
05:39<goodger>hm
05:39<Wolf01>http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/PopularScience/11-1936/prop_bike.jpg O_O really useful indeed
05:39<+dihedral>it's not really that funny
05:39<goodger>he is a little disgruntled, isn't he
05:40<+dihedral>a wee bit yeah
05:40<goodger>what's that about fixing links before the new year?
05:41<+dihedral>he found some links to some patches of mine, which i had removed from my server, so the links 404'd
05:41<goodger>ah
05:41<+dihedral>and he wanted me to fix the links
05:41<goodger>¬.¬
05:42<goodger>it's the time frame I find a little annoying
05:42<+dihedral>"And also, instead of saying people : "hey sir, why dont you search
05:42<+dihedral>yourself into the forum to something we already have discuss ?", please,
05:42<+dihedral>because you know it, give the link : share your knowledges. But i agree, as
05:42<+dihedral>old forum guy (you), it's quite irritating to see newby (me) posting
05:42<+dihedral>something that could have been talked before..."
05:42<+dihedral>from his second email
05:42<goodger>0.o
05:43<+dihedral>i told him i dont see the need to do the work (searching) for him :-P
05:43<goodger>he has a point.
05:43<goodger>phpBB's search function has never worked for me
05:43<+dihedral>not? it worked for me, quite well on many occasions so far
05:43<goodger>maybe it's my weird brain generating incorrect search terms, but phpbb's search function has never returned the correct result
05:44<+dihedral>i usually only give search terms, rather than links to posts
05:44<+dihedral>(unless it's really required)
05:44<goodger>so I always conclude that the topic I searched for has not been previously discussed; this leaves me well-prepared to be shot down in flames by people going "search n00b lol" and such
05:45<+dihedral>hehe
05:45<goodger>it's maddenning
05:47<goodger>the man is probably not trying to be rude; French people seem always to sound rude no matter what they're saying, just like Germans always sound like they're shouting
05:47<goodger>(though the latter effect occurs only when actually speaking German)
05:48<petern>the wiki search is worse
05:48<+dihedral>thanks! i'll take that as a compliment :-P
05:48<+dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, might do too
05:49<goodger>petern: yeah, mediawiki's search function is pretty appalling... I think it might be something to do with jimmy wales' commercial interests
05:49<+dihedral>goodger, anyway - i dont have a problem with that guy! it's him who has a problem with me :-D
05:49<goodger>hm, true
05:54*goodger resolves to develop intravenous caffeine drip
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05:55<+dihedral>look what you have done!
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05:56<goodger>alas, poor yorick --- we hate him, dihedralo
05:56<goodger>hi yorick \o/
05:56<+dihedral>with a passion, goodger
05:56<goodger>I don't particularly understand why
05:56<+dihedral>but i dont think 'hate' expresses it correctly
05:57<goodger>he seems reasonably sane... could do with MPH, but sane nonetheless
05:57*yorick feels like missing something
05:57<+dihedral>i think sanity is not relative when it comes to annoying people
05:58<goodger>am I annoying?
05:58<+dihedral>no - not you
05:58<goodger>oh, good
05:58<yorick>no
05:58<+dihedral>^ that kid
05:58<goodger>I sometimes wonder
05:58<yorick>I'm trying to ignore half of the converstation
05:58<+dihedral>yorick, i still thought you had put me on your ignore list
05:58<yorick>ah, you too sometimes wonder :)
05:59<goodger>I sometimes wonder whether some of the things I say are truly considered funny or just irritating
05:59<yorick>^^
05:59<+dihedral>goodger, if it's just 'some' of the things - you dont have to worry as much :-P
05:59<+dihedral>for some people...
06:00*dihedral looks at yorick
06:00<+dihedral>... it's "most of the things"
06:00<+dihedral>but in all fairness - i dont think he does it on purpose
06:01<goodger>heh
06:01<+dihedral>(which does not necessarily make it any better :-P)
06:01<goodger>well, not everything I say is designed to be funny
06:01<+dihedral>funny is in the eye of the "beer" holder
06:02<goodger>otherwise, I would be a character in a very poorly written sitcom, such as Friends
06:02*dihedral thinks of Mac Guyver
06:03<goodger>never seen that. the fact that selma and patty bouvier like it is enough to warn me off it
06:03<+dihedral>"i have a scre, a ball point pen, tweezers, and could i please have that gum you are chewing?".....
06:03*yorick discovered that the windows 7 snipping tool is in fact in vista too
06:03<+dihedral>*screw
06:03<goodger>heh
06:04<+dihedral>... boom
06:04<goodger>XKCD on MacGuyver: "if I press this trigger, a small gunpowder charge will ignite, propelling a metal slug into the guard's head."
06:04<+dihedral>:-D
06:04<goodger>randall munroe is absolutely mad
06:05<+dihedral>i don't think he's all to chuffed to be associated with that character
06:05<goodger>but so long as he remains mad in the sense of XKCD, rather than in the sense of shooting people for fun, he can remain mad
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06:05<+dihedral>he had a bunch of interviews, where people gave him little things and asked him to build something
06:05<goodger>heh--- randall munroe is the author of XKCD
06:06*yorick wonders why there is a depot pool, as it contains only xy and town index, which could be stored in m2
06:06<+dihedral>well - i mean this other guy - whoever plays Guyver
06:06<goodger>*nod*
06:06<+dihedral>yorick, you are off-topic :-P
06:07<goodger>heh
06:07<yorick>no idea why depots need a town index :p
06:07<goodger>they are named after the nearest town, aren't they?
06:07<yorick>ah
06:08<goodger>Little Fundlingchuddworth Train Depot and such
06:08<yorick>that explains why it needs a town index, but still not why it needs to loop through all depots when one clicks a window
06:08<yorick>instead of 1. just storing the contents in m2
06:08<goodger>(who wrote that town name generator? who?!)
06:08<yorick>or 2.storing the depot index in m2
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06:57<goodger>agh, my brain has stopped working
06:57<goodger>I should have gone to bed
07:03<roboboy>!logs
07:07<yorick>http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
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07:27<Eddi|zuHause><dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, might do too <- actually, i do have a loud voice... my friends are always complaining about that
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07:28<goodger>it's just the texture of the language
07:30<goodger>if you say "Kätzchen sind sehr weichen!" for instance, it _sounds_ angry
07:35<roboboy>gnight
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07:43<George>OTTD r 14775 finds and enables OpenGFX and enables it even if # graphicsset = opengfx in the cfg. even if I remove opengfx.obg. Only deliting opengfx*.grf returns OTTD to default graphics. graphicsset = orig_win simply does not work (error message generated - faild to select). Is it intended?
07:45<yorick>what?
07:45<George>To load OpenGFX by default
07:45<yorick>not that I know of
07:45<yorick>and it doesn't do that here
07:46<George>I had no problem like that in r19692
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>i never tried opengfx... all the previews given here are very dark and depressing
07:47<yorick>no, just the ground sprites are a bit dark
07:48<George>I did it a try, but did not want to use it by default. For the strange reason OpenTTD selects it as default graphics.
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07:48<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you are changing the wrong .cfg?
07:49<George>it happens even no cfg is present
07:50<yorick>not in your home dir?
07:50<George>yorick: yes
07:51<petern>graphicsset = orig_win simply does not work (error message generated - faild to select)
07:51<petern>indicates that your original graphics couldn't be used for some reason
07:52<George>when I remove OpenGFX it is used without any problem. What may be wrong?
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07:52<Eddi|zuHause>start "openttd -d 3", and it tells you more about what it is doing (on the console)
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07:53<Eddi|zuHause>can also be more specific "openttd -d grf=3" or "openttd -d misc=3"
07:56<George>it writes a lot in the screen, how can I redirect it to a file?
07:58<yorick>openttd -d 3 > file
07:59<George>file is empty
08:00<Yexo>use 2> instead of >
08:00<Alberth>or >& to capture both
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>not to confuse with &> ;)
08:02<George>A reason for a bug found. There was a data folder in the my home directory and in the OTTD directory
08:02<yorick>^^
08:02<George>if I remove a data folder from Ottd directory it works as intended
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09:09<petern>pom te pom
09:09<qball>paddy pom pom pet
09:10<qball>petern: we should start a band!
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09:35<Eddi|zuHause>http://failblog.org/2008/12/30/grammar-lesson-fail/ <- there's something for petern ;)
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09:56<petern>:)
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10:26<petern>oh fuck
10:26<petern>Eddi|zuHause: ...
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>:p
10:26<petern>remember that link with all the different stupid units?
10:26<petern>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=405731#p405731
10:27<petern>we can actually blame bjarni again...
10:27<+glx>as always
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10:46<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the "progress bar" on the forums is completely useless...
10:46<goodger>*nod*
10:49<qball>what should it do?
10:50<petern>there is one?
10:52<goodger>it is an apparently ill-conceived method of gauging one's rank in the forum, by post
10:52<petern>oh that
10:52<petern>never look at it :)
10:59<+glx>and usually assholes talk more than useful people
10:59<qball>that is why I my bar is completely white
10:59<goodger>nice try, qball
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>no, i meant when uploading afile
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>as attachment
11:02<goodger>oh
11:02<goodger>depends how big the file is.
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>it is just an animated gif, it has no indication when the upload might be finished nor how much of the file has actually been tranfered
11:03<goodger>obviously a couple of hundred kilobytes of PNG isn't going to justify it, but people apparently use phpbb with larger files also
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what you are trying to say
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11:21<TrueBrain>Happy New Year!!! :p
11:21<Wolf01>new year? what new year?
11:21*TrueBrain slaps wolf01
11:21<TrueBrain>in what timezone do you live?
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>another one?
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>i already have enough years
11:22<TrueBrain>poor Eddi|zuHause
11:22<Wolf01>happy new year to you too, TrueBrain ;)
11:22<TrueBrain>:) :) :) :) :)
11:23<TrueBrain>so how are you all doing? :p
11:23<TrueBrain>well, I am leaving ...
11:23<TrueBrain>boring aint it?
11:23<TrueBrain>enjoy this first day of 2009 :p
11:23-!-TrueBrain [truebrain@openttd.org] has left #openttd [So long and tnx for all the fish]
11:24<planetmaker>happy new year all here :)
11:25<yorick>happy new year pm
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>i'm gonna be sick...
11:38<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: may I join you?
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11:45<petern>hmm, so
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12:25<yorick>is there any nice way to convert series of tiles into series of rectangles?
12:25<Sacro>use a series of conversions
12:25<yorick>aha, what conversions?
12:25<petern>tiles to ractangles conversions, duh
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12:26<petern>*rect :o
12:26<yorick>how do they go?
12:26<Sacro>from tiles
12:26<petern>who knows
12:26<Sacro>to rectangles
12:26<petern>sacro knows :D
12:26<yorick>how do I use them?
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12:34<petern>glx, 14777 broke it
12:37<petern>in vbs And will test all parts even in the first part is false, i suppose
12:38<petern> CheckFile = FSO.FileExists(filename)
12:38<petern> If CheckFile = True Then CheckFile = (FSO.GetFile(filename).DateLastModified >= FSO.GetFile(filename & ".in").DateLastModified)
12:39<petern>that works for me
12:41*Sacro will write you some c# :D
12:42-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
12:43<Sacro>"The 10-minute fireworks display began after midnight was sounded by the chimes of Big Ben. "
12:43<Sacro>the BBC really need to proofread
12:44<Sacro>oh hm, i suppose after 5 reads it makes sense
12:44<Sacro>should have "that" in though for better readability
12:45<petern>heh
12:46<goodger>it's not meant to be "that"
12:47<Sacro>meh, shower!
12:47<goodger>it is meant to be "after midnight was sounded by the chimes of big ben, the 10-minute fireworks display began"
12:48<thingwath>Ding-dong, then boom boom.
12:49<goodger>or, in the original phrasing, "boom boom after ding-dong"
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>that is why german has clear rules about separating minor clauses by commas
12:53<yorick>any reason why the distant join station patch is still not in trunk?
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12:53<goodger>English has them also. the BBC is apparently unaware of them
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>"Das zehnminütige Feuerwerk begann, nachdem Mitternacht durch die Glocken von Big Ben eingeleutet wurde."
12:54<goodger>*nod*
12:55<goodger>putting the comma there in English would give a slightly different connotation due to the pause.
12:55<goodger>but it would be a lot clearer
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>commas in german do not denote pauses, they denote structure of sentences
12:56<yorick>they do both in dutch
12:56<yorick>but it wouldn't put a comma there
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, you usually can make pauses at commas, but that is not because the comma suggests a pause, but the higher structure that demands the comma also suggests the pause
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's an instance of correlation vs. causality
12:58<yorick>^^
12:59<goodger>they denote structure _and_ pauses, independently, in english
12:59<goodger>it's very confusing
12:59<thingwath>they are confusing in every language
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>in absolutely no case in my 12 years of german class, there was ever the talk of "you make a comma where you would make a pause when speaking"
13:01<goodger>see, this is why I cannot read German
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not saying the rules about commas in german are easy. they are probably quite difficult. i said they are clear.
13:02<thingwath>in czech, many people simply have a list of "comma-words" and put the comma in front of them
13:03<thingwath>(no, it's not how it should be done)
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, there are certain cases in german, where that would work, too.
13:03<goodger>"Das zehnminutige <em>Feuerwerk</em> begann <br/> nachdem <em>Mitternacht</em> durch die <em>Glocken</em> von...."
13:03<goodger>that's the sensation inside my head when I read your sentence
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it is a foreign language for you, after all ;)
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>it's much different if you grew into it :)
13:05<goodger>I'm sure
13:07<petern>hmm
13:07<petern>testing max_te combined and separate
13:08<petern>big discrepancy
13:08<petern>can be near double the tractive effort applied
13:09<petern>not that you'd mix a GEC-A 'Eurostar' with an EE 'Type 3' normally...
13:10<goodger>does anyone care to define tractive effort?
13:12<petern>F = P / v
13:12<+glx>petern: of course MS can't do boolean math like everybody else
13:12<petern>neither can the openbve author :D
13:13<goodger>force equals power divided by velocity?
13:13<petern>yeah
13:13<goodger>hmm
13:13<goodger>so where does TE come into that?
13:13<goodger>is it a fancy name for force?
13:13<goodger>I associated it with friction
13:14<petern>it's not a fancy name, it's a description
13:14<petern>like air drag is a measurable force
13:15<petern>maximum TE is associated with friction, yes
13:15<petern>hence F is limited when velocity is 0
13:15<+glx>btw some debug stuff was left
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13:18<+glx>fixed
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>friction is "just" a force, too, or is my translation engine broken?
13:18<CIA-9>OpenTTD: glx * r14780 /trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Fix (r14777): of course VBS evaluates all parts of a boolean expression
13:19<petern>Eddi|zuHause: yes it is
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>max te is basically the static friction between the rails and the wheels
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>the point just before the wheels would start sliding
13:21<Swallow>Either that or the maximum force the engine can deliver, whichever is lower
13:21<petern>Eddi|zuHause: that's a bit lower level than what we do
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, you have to chose the right level of abstraction ;)
13:22<goodger>right
13:22<goodger>so tractive effort is a synonym for the force the engine can deliver, considering its power
13:22<goodger>that makes much more sense
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13:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, basically
13:24<goodger>goodo
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>there are two functions limiting that force
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>at low speeds, the friction between wheels and rail
13:24<goodger>so I see
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>and at high speeds the power of the engine vs the air drag
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>the DBSetXL readme has a rather good explanation of this
13:25<petern>i've surmised that despite what hertogizanasdzxd says, the current model is not so bad, just the units are imperial...
13:26<goodger>heh
13:26<goodger>petern: the current model is perfect, so long as the actual physics is correct...
13:26<petern>there are a few magic constants that can be tweaked
13:27<goodger>but yeah, obscure units doubleplusungood
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13:27<petern>hhaa
13:27<petern>things like lbf * 4 = N is wrong, it should be nearer 4.44
13:28<goodger>there is no need to do that operation
13:28<goodger>the system should be designed so that it does not arse about converting between obscure and proper units
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>*40/9?
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13:29<De_Ghosty>anyone remember what's the max size window support?
13:29<De_Ghosty>xp 32 /vista 64?
13:29<petern>max size what?
13:30<petern>goodger, well you could convert all internal units to SI
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13:30<petern>(but velocity is problematic, as usual)
13:30<goodger>how is it problematic?
13:30<petern>decimals
13:31<goodger>how are decimals problematic?
13:31<petern>of course matching SI units to the in-game scale is pointless
13:31<petern>we use integer maths :)
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>can't use float maths because of network play
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>different processors round differently, etc.
13:32<goodger>I was about to refer to that as a silly presupposition
13:32<goodger>luckily, I was stopped by Eddi|zuHause filling in for me
13:32<goodger>so basically, nothing involving a decimal point is permissible?
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can interpret integers as fixed point
13:33<goodger>right
13:33<goodger>I have a painful feeling that I've been through this conversation before
13:33<goodger>why is doing fixed-point arithmetic problematic?
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>celestar's gamebalance branch has a fixed point data type
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13:34<goodger>right
13:34<goodger>I feel this will not lead anywhere
13:34<goodger>returning to the original point:
13:35<goodger>why is using SI units internally problematic?
13:35<Swallow>This pdf doc may be interesting: http://www.arema.org/eseries/scriptcontent/custom/e_arema/Practical_Guide/PGChapter2.pdf
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, in the end, fixed point arithmetics is exactly the same as unit conversion
13:36<goodger>...but a lot less messy
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>no, the conversion factor is as arbitrary as any other
13:37<goodger>you can use fixed-point arithmetic in a class, rather than constantly reimplementing it
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>in the end, the number has to fit in 32 or 64 bit
13:38<petern>goodger: m/s is a very 'small' unit
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>where an SI based system would use 10^x conversion factors, fixed point arithmetics would use 2^x
13:38<goodger>oh, I see, that's essentially the complete opposite of what I understood by conversion factors
13:38<petern>1 m/s = 0.447 mph
13:39<petern>err
13:39<petern>no
13:39*goodger raises eyebrow
13:39<petern>0.447 m/s = 1 mph
13:39<petern>without using decimals, 2 mph granularity sucks
13:43<petern>incidentally
13:44<petern>m/s is almost but not quite the same as internal-tile-units/second
13:46<goodger>I think it would help if this game were to scale
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>it is to scale...
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>at least 5 of them :p
13:47<goodger>precisely :P
13:51<petern>real life scale? :p
13:56<goodger>would be nice
13:56<petern>impossible in this game
13:57<petern>impossible for any game
13:57<goodger>houses are the same length as train carriages in this game, and major population centres are situated about 250m apart by my reckoning...
13:58<goodger>it is easily possible to have correct scale in "any game"
13:58<petern>but tedious
13:58<petern>so it becomes not a game, but "merely" a simulation
13:59<goodger>you're saying all the fun would suddenly evaporate if the game was to scale?
13:59<petern>yes
13:59<goodger>explain
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>there is nothing wrong about having different scales
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>they just have to be clearly defined
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>which they aren't
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14:01<petern>well, if, for example, you used m/s as your basic velocity unit
14:01<petern>what do you represent s by?
14:02<petern>obviously m can be represented graphically quite simply
14:02<goodger>some user-configurable multiple of a second (variable time compression FTW)
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14:14<petern>hehe, scaling to ttd's day means a tick stop (1/33th of a second) is 19 minutes
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>you could approach it something like this: when a train running 160km/h can stop in 1km distance, how many seconds does that take? and go on from there: how many tiles and how many ticks should such a stop take?
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14:18<petern>that's meaningless :)
14:20<petern>hmm
14:21<De_Ghosty>what revision was pbs implemented?
14:28<petern>several
14:30<yorick>13926 was the first
14:30<De_Ghosty>which one was final
14:30<yorick>it took 42
14:30<De_Ghosty>kk thx
14:30<yorick>and a whole lot of fixes after that
14:31<yorick>try 13976
14:31<petern>hmm, calculating it for 1 day = 1 game year seems to work reasonably well
14:31<petern>wasn't that the set up for that timetable patch?
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14:45<petern>hmm, no it doesn't, i did the maths wrong :)
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14:54<petern>how long does a eurostar take to get up to speed?
14:54<Sacro>up or downhill?
14:54<petern>flat
14:54<thingwath>free fall :o)
14:54<Sacro>Performance Metrics: 16 kW/tonne / 0.98 tonnes/seat / 15.90 kW/seat
14:55<petern>Sacro, for a long or short train?
14:55<Sacro>petern: yes
14:55<petern>wrong
14:55<petern>they both have 4 powered cars, just less unpowered
14:55<Sacro>http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/eurostar.html
14:56<petern>therefore kW/tonne varies
14:56<Sacro>hmm
14:56<Sacro>that's probably quoted unformatted
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14:59<petern>"Eurostar's power to weight ratio is still the worst in the TGV family." heh
15:03<petern>i guess they don't use the third rail pick up anymore...
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15:08<petern>omnomnom
15:09<petern>brandy cream :D
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15:14<petern>Converting drag to horsepower using the "familiar" 1 HP = 550 ft-#/sec and the "familiar" 60 mph = 88ft/sec : 100 mph is 147 ft/sec
15:14<petern>WHY
15:14<petern>WHY DO PEOPLE USE THESE UNITS
15:15<qball>what? feet/sec
15:18<Prof_Frink>petern: openttd should use fff.
15:18<Prof_Frink>Much better than this SI nonsense.
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15:24<valhallasw>Prof_Frink: furlongs! <3
15:27<Prof_Frink>Quite.
15:27<Prof_Frink>And what are the other two?
15:27<petern>firkin and fortnight
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15:33<Eddi|zuHause>how is it possible that knight rider gets worse every episode?
15:33<+glx>old or new?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>i mean it began at an incredibly low level already...
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>new
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16:22<petern>ahh
16:23<petern>i think i got air drag sorted out
16:23<petern>it was an order of magnitude too low
16:24<petern>class 43 tops out at 145 mph which is not far off
16:24<+glx>that's a silly speed unit ;)
16:24<petern>yup
16:25<petern>64 m/s
16:26<petern>the current drag_coefficient values are totally wrong, of course
16:27<petern>i've taken some short cuts with magic conversion values which lessens the number of conversions needed
16:27<goodger>of course, the 43's top speed is the top speed attainable on the decaying tracks that go from Paddington to Reading
16:27<goodger>on other tracks it will probably be different
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>the ICE3 can't even reach its top speed on brand new tracks
16:29<petern>according to everyone's favourite 100% reliable source the absolute max speed is 148mph
16:29<petern>could be tweaked by adjusting the drag coefficient
16:29<goodger>are you sure that 3mph absolutely needs to be shaved off?
16:29<petern>nope
16:30<petern>seeing as it's limited to 125 anyway
16:30<goodger>well then
16:30<petern>i tested with the speed limit removed as the max reachable speed gives a better indication of whether the values are correctish
16:32<petern>145 is a much better value than 225
16:32<goodger>*nod*
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>now... a 500t coal train dragged by an E94 up a 3% slope?
16:33<goodger>40mph
16:34<petern>god i'm sad
16:34<petern>i love using spreadsheets to model these things ;)
16:34<goodger>*nod*
16:34<petern>heh, a eurostar drops below its max_te at 100mph
16:35<petern>that's... fast
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>that's what? slightly more than 60km/h?
16:35<petern>er, slightly year
16:35<petern>160km/h
16:36*goodger could make an ironic joke about Eddi|zuHause's knowledge of the imperial system being akin to goodger's knowledge of the long scale at this time, but he is too tired
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>i was referring to the 40mph
16:37<goodger>ah
16:37<goodger>in that case, yes, about 65-ish
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>40*1.6, but i can't calculate anymore
16:37<goodger>multiply by 1.6
16:38<goodger>64.37376 kph
16:38<goodger>hurrah for google's intimate familiarity with significant figures
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>" Also ich hab ja mal in den 70er Jahren als Stellwerker in Karl-Marx-Stadt/Siegmar gewerkelt, da waren gerade die ersten 250er im Probebetrieb z. B. mit den "Wismut-Zügen" aus Pirna nach Seelingstädt. Grenzlast 2060 t mit 2 x 242, auf dem Tharandter Berg die Hälfte! Die 250 brachte außer auf besagter Rampe den Zug dann allein bis Werdau, die Regellasten wurden dann aber auf 1500 t begrenzt (zum Vergleich: "Eisenschwein" E 94/254 -
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>1400 t; Ludmilla 132 - 1300 t, 242 solo 1030 t). Auf der Thrandter Steigung war die E 94 mit 600 t, die E 42 mit 515 t dabei!"
16:40<Prof_Frink>Quite.
16:40<goodger>indeed
16:40<petern>google's unit understanding is great stuff
16:40<petern>hmm, of course, ICE 3 has less power than a eurostar
16:40<goodger>I was just thinking, "what I'd really like now is for Eddi|zuHause to paste some German esoterica into the channel"
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>figures of different engines and their pulled trains on the "Thrandter Steige"
16:41<goodger>petern: it is. but still, significant figures are good
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>where the regular track goes up to 2.5%, and some sections up to 3%
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>on the main track, the E 94 drags 1400t, and on the steep part 600t
16:42<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: do you mean "hauls"? "drag" has a specific meaning in mechanics
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>yees
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>i mean "hauls"
16:42<goodger>righto
16:42<petern>according to my maths, the ICE3 tops out at 330km/h
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>you know what Mark Twain said about "Zug" :p
16:43<goodger>nope
16:43<petern>hm
16:43<petern>bit off
16:43<Prof_Frink>Move Every Zug?
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: not quite :p
16:43<goodger>nope
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html <- search for "zug"
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>"Zug means Pull, Tug, Draught, Procession, March, Progress, Flight, Direction, Expedition, Train, Caravan, Passage, Stroke, Touch, Line, Flourish, Trait of Character, Feature, Lineament, Chess-move, Organ-stop, Team, Whiff, Bias, Drawer, Propensity, Inhalation, Disposition: but that thing which it does not mean -- when all its legitimate pennants have been hung on, has not been discovered yet."
16:45<petern>Eddi|zuHause, what's the pertinent specs for the E94?
16:45<petern>power/mass/maxte
16:45<goodger>heh
16:46<petern>E 94 does not seem very searchable
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16:47<Eddi|zuHause>the DBSet's readme says 4400hp and 393kN
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>it seems to miss the mass
16:48<@Rubidium>as if the DBset's stats are the real stats...
16:49<petern>allegedly
16:49<petern>he always made out it was realistic
16:50<petern>apart from that bug in ttdpatch that got fixed...
16:50<@Rubidium>what about the wrong power/TE for the ICE3 in DBset?
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16:51<Eddi|zuHause>you'll have to discuss that with The Man himself, i am just quoting what it says in the readme
16:51<petern>as i said
16:51<petern>apart from that bug in ttdpatch that got fixed...
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16:52<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRB_Baureihe_E_94 <- anyway, that's the first google result, it has stats on the right side
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>Mass: 118,7t
16:53<petern>yeah
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>long range power: 3000kW
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>short range power: 3300kW
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>tractive effort: 363kN
16:53<petern>that's about right
16:53<petern>(in dbsetxl)
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>i mistyped that number earlier
16:54<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I'm not going to explicitly tell him bugs in his stuff when he can't be bothered to tell what bugs he found in OpenTTD's NewGRF implementation
16:54<petern>heh, it would do 237 km/h allegedly
16:54<petern>with 500t on flat
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yeah, i had that kind of discussion with him lately, too.
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16:54<petern>Rubidium, well, mixing sets is a bug....
16:54<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I know
16:55<petern>right... now to emulate a 3% slope...
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>petern: i think for flat land the design was to pull 2000t
16:56-!-canhoto [~dextro@lx1-84-90-228-135.netvisao.pt] has quit []
16:56<petern>uh huh
16:57<petern>3% slope, 500t, 56 km/h
16:57<petern>or there abouts
16:58<petern>more like 60km/h
16:58<petern>2000t won't move up 3%
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that sounds about right
17:01<petern>so i just need to document these magic numbers...
17:01<petern>like the magic 2669
17:01<yorick>"loading game failed, (undefined string)"
17:01<petern>power * 2669 / speed, obvious, eh?
17:02<@Rubidium>*3.6/1.6?
17:03<@Rubidium>and that times 100 and then divided by 9.81 or so?
17:03<petern>no :)
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17:05<canhoto>Hi there guys, mind if I ask a question?
17:06<@Rubidium>you already did...
17:06<canhoto>ok, I'll rephrase to a second question then
17:08<canhoto>I was just wondering if there's something wrong with the svn server since I've been trying to get the source code for some time and it's kind of slow
17:09<@Rubidium>which protocol do you use? http:// or svn:// ?
17:09<petern>it's (power * 746) / (speed / 1.6 * 2.23), or something
17:09<canhoto>svn
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>what's 2.23 there?
17:09<petern>mph to m/s
17:10<petern>hmm
17:10<petern>have i done it wrong again? :(
17:10<@Rubidium>canhoto: there seems to be nothing wrong there
17:11<@Rubidium>canhoto: what are you checking out exactly (full url)?
17:11<canhoto>strange...
17:11<canhoto>probably my router showing his age or something
17:11<petern>should be / 2.23
17:11<petern>the constant i have is right
17:12<petern>but anyway, that's one conversion multiplication instead of 3...
17:12<canhoto>svn.openttd.org/trunk
17:12<canhoto>just tried with http and worked like a charm
17:13<petern>hmm, instead of 5, in fact
17:13<@Rubidium>svn should really be faster and it isn't slow for me
17:13<canhoto>it's probably my router or my firewall, thanks anyway
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause>"Im BAHN-REPORT 1/2005 steht ein Artikel über den Lok-Wechsel auf der Rübelandbahn (Harz). Die bisher eingesetzten DR-Loks 251/171 hatten bergwärts bei 63 %o eine Höchstlast von 300 t !. (Zum Glück waren die Züge nur talswärts beladen.)"
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>some day i need to model that railway ;)
17:21<petern>heh
17:21<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14781 /trunk/ (52 files in 4 dirs):
17:21<CIA-9>OpenTTD: -Change: someone changed _cur_year; so update it in a few hardcoded places... happy new year!
17:21<CIA-9>OpenTTD: -Fix (r11790): a few instances were forgotten.
17:22<petern>hm
17:22<petern>yeah, 3% slopes don't work so well
17:22<petern>cos they're too short
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>like i suggested earlier, as long as one part of the train is on a slope, it should take that slope for the entire train
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>not some weird kind of average value
17:23<petern>this 500t BR 194 tops out at 75 km/h
17:23-!-trainboy2004 [~trainboy2@cp734887-a.gelen1.lb.home.nl] has quit []
17:23<petern>but takes a long slope with no flats to get it all on 3%
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>the slope grade should not be dependent on train length
17:24<petern>it's that stupid scale thing again
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>the DBSet wagons have too little load, i think
17:25<petern>i used goods wagosn with 80 crates
17:25<petern>50t per wagon
17:25<petern>hmm
17:25<petern>freight weight!
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>someone said 1 crate equals half a ton
17:26<petern>yes
17:26<petern>40t + the wagon weight
17:26<petern>okay, 1900t train
17:27<petern>it stalls
17:27<petern>hah! 357kN vs 571kN
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>someone in this forum i am reading said 15 4-axle hopper wagons should have 1200-1300t
17:28<petern>well
17:28<petern>ships are worse ;)
17:28<petern>let's try a run up
17:28<petern>hehe
17:28<petern>no chance
17:28<petern>and that was without the speed limiter
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17:35<petern>was that 300t up 6.3%?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>no, that was a BR 251 (not in the set)
17:35<petern>hmm
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>those were engines specifically designed for that route (Rübelandbahn)
17:36<petern>hm
17:36<petern>your E94 could do that at 57km/h
17:37<petern>allegedly
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>the actual problem with that route was, that the track was electrified due to its steepness, but it was isolated from the rest of the electric network, so they couldn't take the 15kV / 16 2/3Hz, but instead took 25kV / 50Hz from the local power station
17:40<petern>too many commas! :o
17:41<petern>so it had more power...
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, people keep telling me that my sentences get too long ;)
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>they could not reuse any of the regular engines anyway, so they designed completely new ones
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>they are not much stronger than the E 94. BR 251: 3300kW, 373kN
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>mass: 124t
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17:46<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Weimar_251_012.JPG&filetimestamp=20040422073224 <- they are not that beautiful, though
17:56<@Rubidium>it doesn't need to be beautiful to be effective
17:57*Rubidium dislikes the looks of the newer Shinkansens, but they are more silent and faster
17:57<@Rubidium>and less noisy for the neighbourhood
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>a freight engine for steep slopes is not exactly comparable to a super high speed train :p
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>have i mentioned this year already that i needed diagonal bridges?
17:59<@Rubidium>so code them?
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18:01<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/Treham%20Transport,%2025th%20Mar%202395.png <- could use diagonal bridges too
18:03<@Rubidium>and signalled bridges and tunnels
18:04<@Rubidium>still it's more fun without as that makes the optimisation process more fun ;)
18:06<petern>Sacro! Sacro!
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18:33<Eddi|zuHause>that looks like there was some serious restructuring going on since the last screenshot i saw (assuming that's still the same game)
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause>why has that picture so odd dimensions? 8192x4096 minus one row of void tiles?
18:37<@Rubidium>if the last screenshot was after the 13th of July 2007 then it's likely the same game
18:37<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: looks like it yes
18:38<@Rubidium>64 in X and 32 in Y sounds quite familiar
18:39<petern>sigh, openbve developer based their decision to use & version && on a benchmark program
18:39<petern>*versus
18:39<petern>stated that & was faster on dual core cpus
18:39<petern>that code needs tronification :)
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18:40<petern>Rubidium: is that one of your 'busier than openttdcoop' games?
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>the one that you complained about being less efficient when using YAPP
18:41<Sacro>petern: ?
18:42<@Rubidium>well... the X times more transported cargo over 4 quarters than Pile Final game, where X is nearing 2 at the moment
18:42<Sacro>petern: you rang m'lady
18:44<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: the two bridges east of Treham South (south end of longest aqueduct) are to force YAPP to choose the platforms that are further away
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>i won't ever do this coop style gameplay
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: shouldn't you instead increase the blocked platform penalty?
18:45<@Rubidium>well... that means changing other penalties too
18:45<@Rubidium>which makes YAPP wait more at other junctions
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause>hm... in alaska, trains stop for wild animals like grizzly bears
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19:43<Wolf01>'night
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20:15<petern>bah
20:15<petern>aec railcar won't go above 56
20:15<petern>it should reach 70 :o
20:23<Sacro>petern: GO TO BED
20:23<Sacro>http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianvisits/sets/72157611633177884/
20:23<Sacro>london without people :o
20:29<FauxFaux>Pro.
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21:12<sand1>Hi, Running OpenTTD 6.2 (the one that comes with Ubuntu 8.10) and trying to get ECS Vectors working. I've changed the orders and tried different combinations of them, but they just don't seem to do anything. The long vehicles GRF works fine.
21:13<Eddi|zuHause>the newest version of ECS does not work in 0.6.2, try to get an older one
21:14<sand1>oh ok, will it work in 0.6.3? I can just install that instead.
21:16<Eddi|zuHause>no, 0.6.3 has only bugfixes
21:16<Eddi|zuHause>you will need a nightly build to play the newest ECS
21:17<sand1>ok ok, that's why ECS refers to a build number not a version number... I'll just look for an older ECS then.
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21:19<sand1>hmm my choices are v1alpha 1 or get a nightly build and use v1 beta 5, so maybe I'll just do without them then.
21:25<Eddi|zuHause>there should be a beta 4
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>and you can try the grf pack from openttdcoop, it should contain the older versions
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>and you should suggest George to put a better understandable error message for people who are playing 0.6 and never heard of nightlies before
21:30<Sacro>christmas time... it's a german now
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22:28<joachim>is there a yapp problem in the latest cargodest binaries?
22:28<joachim>can't get trains to choose free station slots
22:36<joachim>should i not use yapf?
22:36<joachim>seems to work with the other two
22:48<joachim>yup.
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22:55<Eddi|zuHause>usually a problem with the penalties
22:55<Eddi|zuHause>especially if you use a config file or savegame from a pre-trunk yapp build
22:56<Eddi|zuHause>there should be posts about that in the forum
22:58<joachim>yes looks like a penalty problem, cause there is odd behaviour from the other ones as well
22:58<joachim>just installed it today, maybe i already had a config file
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23:05<Eddi|zuHause>check this line: yapf.rail_pbs_station_penalty = 800
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23:07<joachim>it was 2
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23:09<joachim>deleted the cfg and openttd set it to 1000
23:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that should do it
23:10<Eddi|zuHause>although that won't change your savegame
23:10<Eddi|zuHause>you have to set it from the console there
23:11<joachim>ok, is that the only variable i should change?
23:11<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's the only one that is reported to cause problems
23:11<joachim>k, thanks :)
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 02 00:00:44 2009