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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-01-04

---Logopened Sun Jan 04 00:00:48 2009
00:03<WhiteRhino>Dammit.
00:03<WhiteRhino>Each time I try to reconnect the network dumps me again and I don't know why.
00:04-!-darks_ [~darks@124.161.79.172] has joined #openttd
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00:15<WhiteRhino>...It keeps doing it. I'll load the map and right as I get control, it kicks me back to the menu.
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00:44<WhiteRhinoPSO>Huh. Well, whatever happened to kick me out of the map each time I reloaded it, now me and the only other actual player's companies are gone.
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01:49<De_Ghosty>ahve a weird bug
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02:06<De_Ghosty>anyoen here
02:06<De_Ghosty>where i report bugs again?
02:15<WhiteRhino>Check the wiki? Maybe there's a contact link.
02:20<WhiteRhino>Ooh, Mars graphics instead of Toyland.
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02:55<Alberth>De_Ghosty: read the topic
02:56<Alberth>WhiteRhino: I tend to get errors due to rivers with the mars graphics. Do you have them too?
03:00<WhiteRhino>I didn't see any errors for the short time I played. Seems that a train you get in 1950 isn't so good at dragging nine cars of toffee around.
03:01<WhiteRhino>I'm actually trying out a sub-arctic 64x64 map. Working coal, oil and livestock/grain back and forth across a single small town.
03:02<Alberth>WhiteRhino: you'd see the errors in the newgrf window (a red warning triangle).
03:02<WhiteRhino>Ah, no, didn't see any of them.
03:02<Alberth>as for power, add an extra locomotive
03:02<Alberth>and no long slopes :)
03:03<WhiteRhino>Didn't think about that. And while trying to make a very quick alteration to track, my two trains collided and exploded, so I gave up on the 64x2000 map, but I plan to revisit that kind of game.
03:05<Alberth>how does a map of 64 play? I never tried that (but I play very little, I am mostly digging around the in the source code)
03:05<WhiteRhino>It's freakin' tiny. Anything other than cars would be a waste of money.
03:05<WhiteRhino>And even then, I've got ten cars driving around on the map and that's probably too many.
03:05<Alberth>(like now, I first have to build a openTTD binary before I can play :) )
03:06<WhiteRhino>One depot handles recieving grain, livestock and oil, while exporting food and coal. There's long backups.
03:06<WhiteRhino>The good part of 64x64 maps is that once you handle all the possible movement of items, you automatically get any subsidies. =D
03:06<Alberth>depot? (I thought they were for servicing only)
03:07<WhiteRhino>Station thingy. I've got a central depot in the middle of the town.
03:07<Alberth>I normally set subsidies to the lowest possible 1.5 or so, and never bother about them
03:07<Alberth>you know you can have several road stations? as long as they are placed next to each other
03:07<WhiteRhino>Usually I don't either since I can't stand making passenger lines. I did well in that multiplayer game, though, since the towns were big and close together.
03:08<WhiteRhino>Ooh, that opens things up nicely. Thanks, man.
03:09<WhiteRhino>With the subsidy, I'm making 1,700 per truck on wheat, though.
03:11<WhiteRhino>...A new company was launched.
03:12<Alberth>With mountains I do this: http://e.imagehost.org/0279/mountain.png At the left up the mountain, at the right down
03:13<WhiteRhino>Geeze. There's two more companies on this tiny island now.. and both of them are using monorails.
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03:14<WhiteRhinoPSO>Grr. Damned connection.
03:15<Alberth>haha! two stations with a single tile of track in between, no doubt
03:16<WhiteRhinoPSO>Well, one guy is using one train and two wagons of coal... sadly making 3k per trip instead of the 5k per year each of my trucks makes.
03:16<WhiteRhinoPSO>Yeah, I make $830 per truck per trip.
03:17<WhiteRhinoPSO>The other computer player has one station and just isn't building any track.
03:20<WhiteRhinoPSO>Hey! His monorail just took out one of my oil trucks!
03:21<Moodles>how do you change the angle of screen?
03:21<Alberth>Moodles: out a book under it
03:21<Alberth>s/out/put/
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03:21<Moodles>in openttd, i need to see behind something.. i cant remember how to do it
03:21<WhiteRhino>Make the thing you're trying to see behind transparent? Under the wrench-button on the left.
03:21<De_Ghosty>x?
03:22<Alberth>yep
03:22<Alberth>and there is a 'transparency settings' window available from the tool bar to set your preferences
03:23<WhiteRhino>Startin' to hate the sound of those monorails going by..
03:24<Alberth>I have no sound from OpenTTD since my last 're-install'. It does have some advantages... :)
03:25<WhiteRhino>Given that lots of older games I've been playing don't seem to recongize my sound card, having TTD with sounds is awesome. =P For now. Back in the day I never much dealt with monorails and maglevs.
03:29<WhiteRhino>Meanwhile the terrible movie that is Dr. Dolittle 3 playing in the background is what's truly grating on my nerves.
03:31<WhiteRhino>Hmm. Wonder if I could change all these cars to monorails.. maybe run them all on a bit circular track around the island like a roundabout.
03:33<Alberth>You pretty soon need a double track, so trains can pass a broken-down train, instead of getting stuck behind it
03:33<Alberth>(unless you play with break-downs disabled)
03:34<WhiteRhino>Gah! I moved a station a little and the second computer raced in with her own crap.
03:34<WhiteRhino>Ohhh, this is hopeless. =P Mostly did it as a joke anyway. I'm off to bed, see you folks tomorrow.
03:35<Alberth>bye
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04:10<Forked>meep meep
04:11<Alberth>zoeff!
04:15<petern>i must have ttdpatch's algorithm wrong :o
04:22<Alberth>that's bad news
04:24-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
04:25<Alberth>good morning yorick
04:25<yorick>good morning Alberth
04:26<Alberth>I hope it will be, modifying my patch sequence is driving me mad :(
04:26<yorick>?
04:28<yorick>you need to fix the settings gui strings truncated and make the tabs go inline too :)
04:30<Alberth>Yesterday a part of the sequence got committed o trunk, and the remaining part needed some changes to make it trunk-ready. So I am making changes in a patch sequence of (currently) 15 patches, moving back and forth. Luckily, hg has mq support
04:31<Alberth>I have a patch for the "fix the settings gui strings truncated" problem, it is called 'CodeRefactor: Windowing code moving towards OO', waiting in FS#1905. Unfortunately, the current patch is too big, and I don't know how to break it up
04:32<yorick>heh, I don't think they like moving the enire windowing code
04:32<yorick>changing*
04:33<Alberth>The move to OO Window objects was largely due to my patches.
04:33<Alberth>Now I need to modify the widgets (ie they need to know how large they become, and re-size themselves).
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04:35<Alberth>I have a solution for that, but you need a hierarchy of widgets instead of a flat array. That is a very fundamental change.
04:38<Alberth>I see no better solution that to introduce widgets classes, and instantiate a tree of these things, but the class hierarchy code is big, and connecting with the existing way of handling widgets is difficult to impossible as far as i can see
04:38<Alberth>s/that/than/
04:39<yorick>the copy paste patch currently needs 9 bits for storing terrain and 4 bytes for buildings :/
04:40<yorick>(terrain and buildings are separate arrays)
04:40<Alberth>you don't copy from map to map directly?
04:41<yorick>that'd be nice when saving and loading
04:42<Alberth>you'd lose ^X, but that is not too bad imho
04:42<yorick>how about moving, but demolishing first?
04:43<Alberth>you paste destructively
04:43<yorick>yes, but building is in multiple levels
04:44<yorick>first terrain, then railway, then signals
04:45<Alberth>but you always have the source tile don't you? (unless you paste at exactly the same place, but that is trivial to solve)
04:45<yorick>and terraforming?
04:46<yorick>operations change neighbouring tiles
04:47<Alberth>are you not further away from the source tiles then?
04:47<yorick>not always
04:48<yorick>and saveload is needed, yes :)
04:50<Alberth>you could forbid such pastes. If there is enough money, you can always work around that limitation by first pasting it elsewhere.
04:51<Alberth>or maybe the user can do some terraforming him selves beforehand
04:52<yorick>too much limitations :p
04:52<Alberth>to some extent, yeah. On the other hand, it may give you points to break the patch in smaller pieces
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05:14<enra>ok - sooo not happy - laptop failed so now i had to reformat and lose my new ottd graphic sets :(
05:15<enra>(yay for the desktop working still)
05:15<petern>http://iis.fuzzle.org/Default.aspx?mass=3500000&power=3357000&maxte=175000&incline=&maxv=55.5&ttdpad=
05:15<petern>bwahha
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05:16*yorick likes the ottd new realistic most
05:16<petern>i like the top one ;)
05:16<petern>but that is using floats
05:17<petern>ttdpatch's dependence on mass seems... over the top
05:20<petern>yorick, i had an idea though
05:20<petern>similar to pathfinding
05:20<petern>instead of on/off
05:21<petern>ttd original / ottd realistic / ttdpatch / ottd-tweaked
05:23<petern>one other thing that could possibly be modelled is jerk
05:23<petern>which is m/s/s/s
05:24<petern>probably not necessary though :)
05:26-!-[com]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has joined #openttd
05:29<@Rubidium>petern: OTTD tweaked looks over the top in http://iis.fuzzle.org/Default.aspx?mass=409000&power=8000000&maxte=300000&incline=&maxv=100&ttdpad=0
05:30<petern>yup
05:30<petern>using ttdpatch's coefficient is not going to work
05:30<petern>because the values for that are tweaked for ttdpatch's 'realistic' acceleration :/
05:32<petern>hmm
05:32<petern>i missed a line out in ottd's old realistic
05:32<petern>oh dear
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05:35<petern>missed out the 35 * mass * speed / 1000
05:35<petern>which is supposed to be general mechanical resistance
05:35<petern>hm
05:35<petern>axle bearings and the like
05:43-!-einKarl [~einKarl@91-66-180-201-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd
05:50<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14821 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Change [FS#2390]: make the road grids of town match, when all are using the same road layout ofcourse (cirdan)
05:51<petern>boring!
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05:53<Wolf01>hello
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06:11<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14822 /trunk/src/ (8 files): -Change: save 'build station' settings in the config file, like drag'n'drop and and show coverage area (Rexxars)
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06:15*petern adds on acceleration output
06:15<petern>which does different from effective tractive effort due to rounding
06:15<petern>*differ
06:16<petern>the jaggies in ttdpatch with a high mass are irrelevant
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06:32<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14823 /trunk/src/ (date.cpp date_type.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Document: some variables/structs (Alberth)
06:33<Alberth>a nice surprise, I had forgotten I did that :)
06:37<@Rubidium>the benefits of a bugtracker...
06:41<Alberth>Until you have 100+ issues waiting for you ;)
06:41<@Rubidium>depends on how you define an issue
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06:47<@Rubidium>there's only 28 bugs, of which 6 aren't for trunk and another 5 aren't be reproducable (and likely mistaken users)
06:48<@Rubidium>and there're less than 100 patches, most of questionable intent/quality
06:48<Alberth>Can disabled NewGRFs make the path finder crash? (follow_track.hpp:108, assertion failed)
06:48<@Rubidium>Alberth: yes
06:48<Alberth>ok, that's the most likley cause then.
06:49<Alberth>Indeed, the OpenTTD tracker is nicely small indeed.
06:49<Alberth>time for lunch
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07:07<matias>hello
07:07<qball>hwody
07:07<Alberth>Rubidium: the "prevent industry closure after building a station next to it" patch is of such questionable quality, apparently?
07:08<qball>owh I hate it when that happens
07:08<matias>one question: i've made some bus stops and busses, but they seem to make no revenue
07:08<petern>don't use transfer orders
07:08<matias>mmh?
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07:08<matias>ok, that must be it
07:08<Alberth>allow people to get in the bus
07:08<matias>whats transfer order?
07:09<Alberth>matias: search for feeder service
07:09<@Rubidium>Alberth: it conflicts with newindustries
07:09<Alberth>Right, that would qualify as a problem :D
07:10<petern>could you just build random one tile stations to keep industries open, just in case?
07:10<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14824 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#1725]: mouse events could be treated twice (illogict)
07:10<@Rubidium>then there's the issue "what is recent"?
07:10<matias>hmm.. why does the bus get revenue, but it wont propacate?
07:10<Alberth>there is not much you can do about closing newindustries, I understood
07:11<mrfrenzy>read about transfers in the docs matias...
07:11<matias>currently doing that
07:11<Alberth>petern: yes, you could, but it costs money
07:11<Alberth>Rubidium: that's why I made it a constant ;)
07:11<petern>not a great deal
07:13<Alberth>petern: I think having an industry announce closure while you are busy putting infra structure in, is much worse
07:14<qball>it sucks royally
07:14<entropy>anyone knows how i can connect eggdrop with openttd dedic?
07:14<Alberth>but alas, the solution is not good enough currently
07:14<entropy>how can i*
07:14<Alberth>entropy: what's an eggdrop?
07:15<entropy>an IRC bot
07:15<Alberth>ah. OpenTTD doesn't speak to IRC bots
07:15<yorick>eggdrop is TCL right?
07:15<entropy>right
07:15<entropy>i can write a script
07:15<yorick>autopilot is TCL too
07:16<@Rubidium>entropy: use autopilot to make an IRC bridge, then eggdrop can talk with OpenTTD via that bridge
07:18<entropy>oh right word
07:18<entropy>"bridge"
07:18<entropy>thx
07:19<TrueBrain>morning
07:19<TrueBrain>Yexo: an other problem with 'rays' I had: it is very hard if you only have the points .. you need to make the lines on a 'sandbox' image or what ever to make it fast ... and some regions are WAY too big for that :p
07:21<TrueBrain>(and intersection calculation on 500+ points is terrible slow :p)
07:26<matias>hmm.. how to load and unload passengers at the same time?
07:26<matias>bus
07:26<mrfrenzy>just visit the station, no additional load, unload or transfer settings should be enabled
07:26<matias>ok
07:27<Swallow>Bug report: The following order list causes the game to freeze as soon as it tries to reserve a path through waypoint X:
07:27<Swallow>Go to waypoint X
07:27<Swallow>Jump to order 2
07:27<Swallow>Jump to order 3
07:28<Swallow>Problem seems to be in the lookahead code
07:29<Swallow>VehicleOrderSaver.SwitchToNextOrder doesn't protect itself from infinite loops properly
07:30<TrueBrain>make a patch :)
07:31<Swallow>I'm already making another one :)
07:33<TrueBrain>nobody keeps you from making 2 :p :p
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07:37<qball>hi TrueBrain
07:38<qball>has goodger calmed a bit down? or is bitten down on the fact that we where bit ching about his bit error?
07:38<TrueBrain>qball: stop trying to be funny ;) :p
07:38<qball>yeah
07:38<qball>it fails
07:38<qball>a bit
07:38<Yexo>TrueBrain: you don't have to draw the lines to calculate intersections, and it can be done in O(n) with n = number of points
07:39<TrueBrain>Yexo: try to make an algorithm for that, in O(n) ;)
07:39<TrueBrain>all algorithms I found, ar ein O(n^n)
07:39*qball grabs his algorithm design book
07:41<TrueBrain>anyway, even with the sandbox idea I had earlier, I have leaking regions :(
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07:47<Yexo>TrueBrain: like http://paste.openttd.org/178440 ?
07:47<Yexo>that needs some special casing for horizontal lines, but otherwise it should be fine
07:48<TrueBrain>lines = [line(p0, p1), line(p1, p2), line(p2, p3), ..., line(pn, p0)] (n lines) <- and there is your problem ;)
07:48<Yexo>why? I assume you have the points in order, right?
07:48<TrueBrain>yes
07:48<TrueBrain>try to put this in C code :)
07:49<Yexo>for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) { lines[i].p1 = points[i]; lines[i].p2 = points[(i + 1) % n]; } <- like that?
07:50<qball>can I quickly ask an offtopic question. I need a way to take over the vista laptop (of my grandma) over the internet. but it must be safe (ssh like + public keys?)
07:50<TrueBrain>oh, you mean that with lines.. fair enough .. now the rest in C :p
07:50<TrueBrain>qball: Windows and SSH .. lol :p
07:50<TrueBrain>(it is possible, just ... :p)
07:50<qball>TrueBrain: well I tried installing a ssh server
07:50<qball>under vista
07:51<qball>that was epic fail++
07:51<Yexo>TrueBrain: to keep it simple, I'd take y=0 for the crossing line. Calculating intersections is easy, then you just have to sort those
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07:51<TrueBrain>calculating intersections is far from easy :)
07:52<TrueBrain>even more as there are 'ghost' intersections (intersections outside the line)
07:52<Yexo>outside what line?
07:52<TrueBrain>when you test 2 lines on intersection, it always returns a point
07:52<TrueBrain>(unless they are parallel)
07:53<TrueBrain>that point needs to be ON both lines
07:53<TrueBrain>which on itself is hard to check for :)
07:53<Yexo>TrueBrain: it's not, wait a minute
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07:53<TrueBrain>:)
07:54<TrueBrain>several mathbooks disagree with you, so if you can give me a method, it is very welcome :)
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07:54<Yexo>see http://paste.openttd.org/178441, it's easy because we have one line and one line-segment, with two line-segments it would be harder indeed
07:55<TrueBrain>.. ;)
07:55<TrueBrain>calcuate where line(p1,p2) crossing the y=0 line and return that.
07:55<TrueBrain>good luck my friend :)
07:55<Yexo>wait another minute :P)
07:55<TrueBrain>so make me the damn algorithm completely :p
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07:59<Alberth>TrueBrain: http://paste.openttd.org/178442
08:00<TrueBrain>solve d1 and d2 (standard linear algebra problem) <- I love it how you two refuse to give any real code, and take any shortcut possible ;)
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08:01<Alberth>well, you have 2 equations and 2 unknowns. Throw it in any standard math solve package
08:01<Swallow>This may be interesting to you: http://www.actionscript.org/resources/articles/626/1/Vector-intersection-calculations/Page1.html
08:01<TrueBrain>I have C ;)
08:01<TrueBrain>it is not like I can start Maple
08:01<TrueBrain>:p
08:01<@Rubidium>matlab can make C
08:01<qball>yep
08:02<Alberth>and C can make a Maple :P
08:02<Yexo>TrueBrain: http://paste.openttd.org/178443 <- happy now?
08:02<qball>you can even run a matlab server where you can connect to and execute scripts on
08:02<TrueBrain>if ((p1.y > 0) == (p1.y > 0)) return NONE; <- I think that always returns
08:02<TrueBrain>:p
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08:03<qball>he
08:03<canidae>evening people. playing around with r14782 i've had some issues with the [difficulty] setting in openttd.cfg. that is, it completely ignores every setting in it and overwrites the values when i quit. running a dedicated server, is it possible to set the values in this section in another way?
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08:04<Yexo>TrueBrain: http://paste.openttd.org/178444
08:05<@Rubidium>canidae: set the difficulty level to custom instead of something else (which overrides the custom settings)
08:05<TrueBrain>Yexo: if ((p1.y > y) == (p1.y > y)) return NONE; <- still returnng always
08:05<canidae>ah, let me look
08:06<Yexo>TrueBrain: second one should be p2.y of course :p
08:06<TrueBrain>and I guess also a check if both < y
08:06<Alberth>TrueBrain: http://paste.openttd.org/178445
08:07<TrueBrain>Alberth: your algorithm is so unbelievable slow when applied to this problem
08:07<TrueBrain>it took on average 1 minute to calculat ethe center of a region
08:07<petern>get a faster pc :D
08:07<petern>or multithread it
08:07<petern>or...
08:07<TrueBrain>hehe :)
08:07<Alberth>didn't you yesterday say that time was no problem ? :D
08:07<TrueBrain>Alberth: well, there are limits ;)
08:08<Yexo>TrueBrain: it still needs special cases for (what if one of thepoints already is on the line)
08:08<Yexo>or both are
08:08<TrueBrain>how do you mean?
08:08<canidae>Rubidium: excellent! thanks! :)
08:09<Alberth>TrueBrain: you can add bounding boxes checking to eliminate the non-interesting cases
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08:10<TrueBrain>Yexo: but in general, your idea might work, as it is a horizontal line intersecting ...
08:10<TrueBrain>I just found out there is yet an other problem ... there are regions, with 2 rings, one in the other
08:10<Yexo>you can easily change the line to whatever you want, but this seemed easiest
08:11<Yexo>that case can't be found with flooding either
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08:11<TrueBrain>and so I noticed :)
08:11<Yexo>but why is that a problem? I assume you have 2 lists of points?
08:11<TrueBrain>yes
08:11<TrueBrain>for your method, that might just work
08:12<Yexo>for flooding too, if you only mark the land in the first region, then flood the other,and only mark the land again
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08:12<TrueBrain>that is what I do now .. hmm ..
08:12<TrueBrain>now I understand why that goes wrong ..
08:13<TrueBrain>the idea of course is that only the area between the two rings is filled
08:13<TrueBrain>but ... there is no true understanding about this
08:13<TrueBrain>so both areas are filled, as ... who says that is not the meaning ;)
08:13<TrueBrain>(catch my problem?)
08:13<Yexo>yes
08:14<Yexo>but I don't think there is a valid way to catch that. What about three rings inside eachother?
08:14<TrueBrain>exactly
08:14<TrueBrain>so ... I need to check each region manually
08:14<TrueBrain>and make an essement based on what I see ...
08:14<Yexo>you only need to check regions were there are multiple sections
08:15<petern>can't you take a line perpendicular to one of the out side vectors then... er... i don't know what next :p
08:15<TrueBrain>... 60% of the regions ;)
08:15<TrueBrain>wow ... I try to find photoshop .. there are SO MANY versions :s
08:16<Yexo>TrueBrain: it's easy to automatically check if one of the sections is within another section
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08:22<TrueBrain>Yexo: most likely ..
08:22<TrueBrain>but first I am going to apply your idea, see how much regions work out-of-the-box
08:22<TrueBrain>no idea how to check that .. but okay :p
08:22<Yexo>manually :)
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08:23<TrueBrain>my code needs some heavy modifications anyway, to make things a bit more readable
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08:23<Yexo>you could compare with the flooding one, and manually look at the differences
08:23<TrueBrain>hehe
08:23<TrueBrain>very hard :)
08:31<TrueBrain>hmmm ... an other nasty thing ... it seems 2 nearby regions do not always connect
08:31<TrueBrain>http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/mapgen/image018.png <- when you zoom in, you see 'water' at the borders of the regions
08:31<TrueBrain>because there they did not intersect ... :(
08:31<TrueBrain>more problems than solutions, if you ask me :)
08:32<Yexo>I don't see it,where do you mean?
08:32<TrueBrain>everywhere
08:33<TrueBrain>below amsterdam
08:33<TrueBrain>on the border of zuid-holland
08:33<TrueBrain>you see a few pixels blue
08:33<TrueBrain>shouldn't be there
08:34<Yexo>below amsterdam, isn't that "Het IJ"?
08:34<TrueBrain>haha
08:34<TrueBrain>no, that is TOO much blue
08:34<TrueBrain>a bit lower
08:34<Yexo>you mean all those stray blue pixels?
08:34<TrueBrain>....
08:34<TrueBrain>hallo einstein :)
08:35<TrueBrain>I guess I should eliminate small regions of non-flooded overlays
08:35<TrueBrain>(1 to 4 pixels)
08:37<SpComb>what evil scheme is TrueBrain cooking up this time?
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08:42<Alberth>Trying to flood Holland entirely
08:46<TrueBrain>this btw is where this project stranded last time too
08:47<TrueBrain>because of those stupid borders .... :(
08:59<TrueBrain>bah, I am sick of it ... tnx for your input Yexo and Alberth .. I will look at it again next week or so ..
09:02<Swallow>Some funny overflow stuff happens when you insert more than 255 orders :)
09:15<yorick>why do you want to insert more than 255 orders?
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09:16<fjb>Hello
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09:32<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14825 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix: pay the correct amount of interest instead of a few percent too little a year
09:36<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14826 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2494]: infinite loop in order lookahead when reserving a path (Swallow)
09:37<Swallow>That's fast :)
09:38<Alberth>it's a serious problem
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09:43<matias>hm hm hm
09:44<matias>i'm new to openttd.. which is the best strategy to start a new game
09:45<@Rubidium>start openttd, press "new game", press "generate", et presto... a new game
09:45<matias>after that
09:45<@Rubidium>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Started ?
09:45<Forked>:-)
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09:46<@Rubidium>or http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Tutorial
09:46<matias>done that too
09:46<@Rubidium>or... generally looking at the manual on the wiki
09:46<matias>i mean how do you begin a game?
09:48<@Rubidium>by connecting a pair of industries or a pair of towns
09:49<matias>do you use all your money to a few routes or?
09:50<Alberth>in the beginning yes (ie expand as fast as possible)
09:50<Alberth>later you are going to have a few problems if you try to spend all your money
09:51<matias>how do you know which routes are the most profitable?
09:51<Alberth>(but that is just me, different people play with a different style here)
09:51<matias>and if you should use train/road?
09:51<Alberth>look at cargo payment rates
09:51<Alberth>depends on what you want to do.
09:51<Alberth>if the goal is to get rich, faster transport makes more money
09:52<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14827 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#1984]: few (optional) optimisations to making (initial) orders (sulai)
09:52<matias>ok, so train usually
09:52<Alberth>train also carries a lot more
09:53<Alberth>in temperate climate, coal is most profitable early in the game
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09:53<joachim>does anyone have the source for the cargodest + daylength/better timetables/reduced passengers etc. version?
09:53<Alberth>(and later too, but then profitability is not really relevant any more)
09:55<@Rubidium>joachim: look in the thread where the binary is released and complain if there's no source there
09:55<joachim>i found it on another forum
09:55<joachim>so, not having high hopes :)
09:55<Alberth>joachim: not likely, combinations of patches are very not-maintainable
09:56<@Rubidium>joachim: just demand the source as that's required under GPL
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09:58<Alberth>matias: this morning I spoke with WhiteRhino, and he found that trains and a 64x64 map don't go well together.
09:58<@Rubidium>Alberth: tss... he just needs to make a little effort
09:59<Alberth>he thougt it was too crowded then.
09:59<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/Treham%20Transport,%2025th%20Mar%202395.png <- with multiplexing tracks you can come quite far
09:59<@Rubidium>okay, that map is 4 times bigger (128x128), but still
10:00<Alberth>Nice! your canal is a bit crowded :)
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10:02<yorick>someone needs ship queues :p
10:03<Alberth>Rubidium: how do you get those clusters of industry together? I see them a lot but they never happen in my maps. Do you make a scenario, or do you just buy them later in the game?
10:18<@Rubidium>I bought them ;)
10:30<@Rubidium>though enabling multiple industries per town will give you industries closer together
10:30<@Rubidium>I didn't build any of the oil rigs
10:32<CIA-9>OpenTTD: smatz * r14828 /trunk/ (95 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: move most of save/load-specific code to separate files
10:32<TrueBrain>why an unique name to files?
10:33<TrueBrain>wasn't that a very old MSVC thingy?
10:33<TrueBrain>(in other words: why in dir 'saveload', and postfix with _sl?)
10:33<+glx>it is
10:33<TrueBrain>as that old MSVC is not supported, it seems a bit ... silly ;)
10:33<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: "very old MSVC" means MSVC 2008 and before (and likely after too)
10:33<+glx>for msvc bla.cpp and dir/bla.cpp both compile to objs/bla.obj
10:33<TrueBrain>MSVC 2008 still?!
10:33<TrueBrain>wtf?!
10:34<TrueBrain>are they insane ...
10:34<TrueBrain>I thought it was a MSVC6 only thing :(
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10:34*FauxFaux has never seen this. :/
10:35<+glx>maybe it's possible to have subdirs in objs dir, but I think it needs hand tweaking in vcproj
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10:36<+glx>and it's easier to ensure there's no duplicate filenames :)
10:37<Alberth>First attempt of a custom GUI sprite: http://e.imagehost.org/0029/circle_sprite.png
10:37<Alberth>bitmask and colour still a but broken :)
10:38<petern>yers
10:38<TrueBrain>stupid MSVC
10:39<+glx>Alberth: wrong palette for a start :)
10:40<Alberth>glx: No palette would be a better description probably "DrawSprite(SPR_CIRCLE_FOLDED, 0, x, y);"
10:40<Alberth>I have to find out what a good value is instead of 0
10:40<petern>PAL_NONE, but that's 0
10:40<@Rubidium>PAL_NONE
10:41<petern>your sprite needs to be corrected, heh
10:41<petern>Build succeeded
10:41<petern>yarr
10:41<Alberth>and even execution worked (with a small complaint about corrupt openttdw.grf file)
10:42<Alberth>thanks all
10:42<@Rubidium>Alberth: that "just" requires updating the obg files
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10:43<@Rubidium>with the appropriate MD5 checksums
10:44<Alberth>Yeah, I suspected something like that. However, for the moment I am already very happy that I actually get something that looks like (+). It proves that the various offsets are all working.
10:45<@Rubidium>"if you're happy and you know it clap your hands" ;)
10:46*Eddi|zuHause specificly not claps his hands
10:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: smatz * r14829 /trunk/src/saveload/ (map_sl.cpp subsidy_sl.cpp): -Fix (r14828): forgot CH_LAST
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10:53<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14830 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp order_type.h): -Fix [FS#2495]: overflow of number of orders per vehicle (based on patch by Swallow)
10:56<Yexo>SmatZ: can you take another look at the freeform edges patch?
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11:05<Eddi|zuHause>european or african Swallow?
11:08<matias>hmm.. how to get distance between 2 points?
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11:09<entropy>have anyone ESB newgrfs?
11:10<matias>in a game, i mean.. is there any way to get a grid on?
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>manhattan distance usually
11:10<entropy>err
11:10<entropy>ECS
11:10<entropy>beta 5
11:10<+glx>on george's site
11:10<matias>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but is there a tool how to get it without guessing?
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>matias: in the query window (?), the coordinates are listed
11:11<+glx>isn't there a show distance tootip too ?
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>also, there is a setting where the length of tracks is listed
11:11<matias>mmh?
11:11<+glx>somewhere in GUI patches/advanced settings
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>when you drag a rail, road, bridge, etc. tool
11:11<entropy>i installed it, and nothing
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>entropy: you have to add them in the newgrf settings, and then start a new game
11:12<+glx>and use a nightly
11:13<entropy>yeah yeah i'm smarty
11:13<entropy>oh
11:13<entropy>beta 5 is for nightly?
11:13<matias>found lenght on build
11:13<+glx>entropy: yes
11:13<entropy>:( compiling >_<
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11:14<matias>ok, length is about 30
11:15<entropy>nightly is full of bugs?
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11:15<entropy>or it's ok to play
11:16<+glx>it may have bugs
11:16<Alberth>but they tend to be solved the next night :)
11:16<+glx>or sooner :)
11:16<entropy>and i should compile new binaries every night
11:16<entropy>lol
11:17<matias>£774 to transver 30 oil to the distance of 30..
11:18<Yexo>matias: it also depends on how long the transportation took
11:18<matias>there's no max time for oil
11:19<matias>hmm
11:20<matias>is 100 units default for the calculations?
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11:21<matias>if so, i got ~£86/square for transfering those
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood those price calculation graphs...
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>what they lack is a histogram of actually delivered cargos
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11:32<matias>what's the normal profit for a train in the beginning of the game?
11:33<petern>...
11:33<petern>how long is a piece of string?
11:33<@Rubidium>about yee long
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>|< --- about this --- >|
11:35<mrfrenzy>matias: look at the cargo payment graph
11:35<matias>in practise in your games..?
11:35<mrfrenzy>the profit is dependant on what cargo is delivered, how fast and over how many squares
11:36<matias>should i make a train with min number of wagons or a huge one and wait on the station?
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>usually, you time the wagons in a way that when one train arrives, the other one just gets full
11:37<joachim>is there a grf or other way to adjust running costs?
11:37<joachim>in general
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:38<joachim>i thought it came with the daylength patch
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>basecost.grf or something
11:38<matias>ok, so putting 3 wagons is ok in my case
11:39<joachim>thanks, i'll try that
11:39<petern>it's a balancing skill you will need to learn
11:40<joachim>last time i played with the daylength patch i think there was a cost multiplier option
11:40<matias>how much do you usually earn for the first routes? mine is about £2300
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>i never pay attention to that...
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>as long as it is positive
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>you will eventually get to a point where it does not matter anymore
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11:50<joachim>hmm running cost is supposed to be multiplied by the daylength patch
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11:57<joachim>oh, known bug
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12:06<gynter>hmm
12:06<gynter>where are data files in freebsd7?
12:08<+glx>like other linux I guess
12:08<+glx>try ~/.openttd/data
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12:11<gynter>k, thanks
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12:42<CIA-9>OpenTTD: smatz * r14831 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Codechange: use {VEHICLE} instead of Train/Ship/Road veh/Aircraft/{STRING} {COMMA} in lang files (part by Swallow)
12:44<CIA-9>OpenTTD: glx * r14832 /branches/noai/ (173 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14761:14827
12:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: smatz * r14833 /trunk/src/lang/ (49 files in 2 dirs): -Update (r14831): remove changed strings from other languages
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13:04<entropy>wtf where is makefile.unix in nightly build
13:04<@Rubidium>why would you expect that?
13:04<entropy>oO
13:04<+glx>Makefile is enough
13:04<@Rubidium>and why the wtf?
13:05<entropy>there's no Makefile
13:05<+glx>configure
13:05<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14834 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/ (frisian.txt greek.txt hebrew.txt malay.txt persian.txt): -Fix: some strings (in unfinished/) were forgotten when removed/updated
13:05<@Rubidium>entropy: RTFR
13:05<entropy>glx, already
13:06<+glx>"./configure && make" should work
13:06<entropy>nothing
13:06<@Rubidium>and if it doesn't you're missing important stuff
13:06<entropy>the stable build compiles
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13:06<@Rubidium>and nothing can't be the result of ./configure && make
13:07<entropy>i expect that because stable build have makefile.unix :)
13:08<@Rubidium>entropy: really?
13:08<@Rubidium>then you're not using the official source package
13:08<entropy>http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r14815/openttd-trunk-r14815-source.tar.gz -_-
13:09<@Rubidium>entropy: that's 1) not a stable and 2) it has no makefile.unix (like the offical stable sources)
13:10-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76137.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:10<entropy>stable builds have makefile.unix!
13:10<entropy>or it's a miracle
13:10<@Rubidium>THEY DO NOT!
13:10<entropy>and my 0.6.3 server isn't work
13:10<qball>ha ha
13:11<@Rubidium>or at least the !*OFFICIAL*! source tarballs DO NOT HAVE a makefile.unix
13:11<entropy>http://binaries.openttd.org/releases/0.6.3/openttd-0.6.3-source.zip it's official?
13:11<entropy>is it*
13:12<entropy>may be there's some other official site
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13:12<@Rubidium>entropy: and where's makefile.unix in there?
13:13<entropy>ok
13:13<entropy>sec
13:19<gynter>hmm
13:19<gynter>why ppl get Could not load savegame while connecting to my server?
13:19<gynter>I'm using -g my.scn
13:22<@Rubidium>gynter: what version?
13:22<gynter>0.6.3
13:23<@Rubidium>running multiple servers?
13:23<gynter>no
13:26<@Rubidium>then I've got no clue
13:26<@Rubidium>maybe they've got a modified build
13:28<@Rubidium>though the could not load should be followed by a second message (IIRC)
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13:34<CIA-9>OpenTTD: smatz * r14835 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Change: apply the 'warn if train's income is negative' setting to other vehicle types, too
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13:37<CIA-9>OpenTTD: smatz * r14836 /trunk/src/lang/ (41 files in 2 dirs): -Update (r14835): remove changed string from other languages
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13:39<gynter>dbg: [net] 'Player' reported an error and is closing its connection (could not load map)
13:39<gynter>*** Player has left the game (could not load map)
13:39<gynter>dbg: [net] recv failed with error 54
13:39<gynter>dbg: [net] Closed client connection 5
13:39<gynter>thats in server log
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13:40<@Rubidium>could very well be a client with modified binary that failed to load a valid map
13:40<@Rubidium>other than that I've got absolutely no clue
13:40<gynter>hm, both server and client are from the same freebsd7 port
13:41<+glx>write access on save dir for server or client ?
13:42-!-fjb [~frank@p5485FA66.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
13:45<@Rubidium>that sounds plausible too
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13:46<entropy>seems like ./configure doesn't work properly in nightly build
13:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: translators * r14837 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-01-04 18:46:20
13:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 39 changed by TrueTenacity (39)
13:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 1 fixed, 13 changed by khaloofah (14)
13:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: catalan - 10 fixed by arnaullv (10)
13:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: dutch - 19 fixed, 2 changed by Excel20 (21)
13:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: finnish - 10 fixed by jpx_ (10)
13:47<+glx>entropy: maybe it's your shell
13:47<entropy>hahahaha
13:48<entropy>it required flag --enable-dedicated
13:48<@Rubidium>it did say that, right?
13:48<entropy>on stable build it is automatically
13:49<@Rubidium>true, but many many users came and said their binary didn't work when they automagically got a dedicated build
13:49<entropy>lol
13:49<@Rubidium>so now you have to tell you want a dedicated build
13:49<entropy>ever if i don't have sdl :(
13:49<entropy>even*
13:49<Eddi|zuHause2>entropy: it was decided that people wanting dedicated build are less common than people that miss sdl-devel
13:50<entropy>ah ok
13:50<entropy>right
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13:55<gynter>fixed
13:55<gynter>binary had wrong suit
13:55<gynter>suid*
13:55<gynter>client binary
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14:05<gynter>when game is restarted by restart_game_year does it load my scenario set by -g on CLI or random map?
14:09<@Rubidium>good question, please tell us the answer ;)
14:10<gynter>heh
14:10<@Rubidium>(i.e. try it and tell me what it did as I've got no idea)
14:10<gynter>k, gona tell if game reaches to restart_game_year
14:11<TrueBrain>I want to put some money on a random map
14:11<TrueBrain>where do you put your money Rubidium?
14:12<@Rubidium>in my piggy bank
14:16<gynter>hmh
14:16<gynter>whats config variable for allow removal of town roads, bridges etc?
14:17<gynter>extra_dynamite?
14:17<CIA-9>OpenTTD: smatz * r14838 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/ (serbian.txt thai.txt): -Fix: race condition between me and WT2's translators
14:18<gynter>ah yes ok
14:18<TrueBrain>Osai: are the coop games any good lately?
14:19<Osai>we have an amazing game right now
14:19<Osai>at the prozone
14:20<Osai>2,5k trains on a 512x512 map, no newgrfs
14:20<Osai>^ TrueBrain
14:21<TrueBrain>the serverlist shows a map running for -16 years ....
14:22<TrueBrain>Rubidium: ^^ :p
14:22<@Rubidium>1) create a game, cheat back in time
14:22<TrueBrain>in MP?
14:23<@Rubidium>well... MP seems to be able to load games that have been cheated back in time
14:23<TrueBrain>it remembers that for year calculation?
14:23<TrueBrain>oh well ..
14:24<@Rubidium>it remembers start_year
14:24<TrueBrain>ah :)
14:24<TrueBrain>fair enough
14:26<TrueBrain>haha, the coopers are insane .. (well, nothing new there :p)
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14:28<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>ah, zuu isnt here today
14:28<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>anyone tried installing the ttdpatch onto openttd
14:29<TrueBrain>sounds rather silly
14:29<@Rubidium>many tried, noone succeeded (or will succeed)
14:29<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>well its supposed to give the extra signal features
14:29<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>as all I've got is 1 type of signa;
14:29<TrueBrain>haha, someone has told you a nice lie :)
14:29<@Rubidium>PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn: OpenTTD != TTD
14:30<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>what am I missing then#
14:30<@Rubidium>that TTDPatch is for TTD, not for OpenTTD
14:31<Yexo>as all I've got is 1 type of signa; <- in that case you're not running OpenTTD
14:31<@Rubidium>or he hasn't read the manual yet
14:31<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>not read the manual.
14:31<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>just came across a lot on the web about various types on signals
14:32<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>and therefore wondered if there was some way of getting them on my version
14:32<Eddi|zuHause2>PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn: what does your supposed openttd say about its version?
14:32<Yexo>after pressing the signal button, click on an existing signal to change it to another type
14:32<Yexo>and read http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Building_signals for more info
14:32<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>its open ttd 0.6.3
14:34<Eddi|zuHause2>PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn: that does not need a patch to have several signal types
14:34<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>ok
14:34<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>had seen stuff about clicking the signal tile,
14:34<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>but had assumed that was in the build manager
14:35<Yexo>what is "the build manager"?
14:35<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>I assume thats the best way to describe the box that comes up when you click on the rail simble to build stuff
14:36<PsYcHoTiC_MaDmAn>or what the wiki here has down as Railway construction toolbar
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14:52<petern>oh dear
14:54<+dihedral>oh bear
14:54<Eddi|zuHause2>boh ear
14:55<+dihedral>oh rear?
15:01<petern>yay
15:01<petern>an RV going 125 mph
15:01<gynter>no fear
15:01<Eddi|zuHause2>blasphemy!
15:01*Prof_Frink goes back to work on thrust_ssc.grf
15:02<petern>:D
15:03<petern>well, max speed is now 318 instead of 79
15:03<Prof_Frink>Although that's not really an *R*V, is it?
15:03<petern>(mph)
15:03<petern>hmm, airdrag * 2 in tunnels, i suppose
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15:13<petern>hmm, now curve and hill penalties...
15:15<Swallow>what values are you going to use for those?
15:16-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>what i wish for is a statically calculatable grade and radius calculation
15:16-!-ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has joined #openttd
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. one that is not dependent on train length and train position
15:16-!-glx|away is now known as glx
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>and as a bonus, a less abrupt slowdown :p
15:22<Eddi|zuHause># Ich trink mir einen, steig ins Auto, trete voll aufs Gas
15:22<Eddi|zuHause># Enten jagen macht besoffen doppelt so viel Spaß
15:22<Swallow>according to some source, one degree of curvature is equal to a grade of around 0.04%
15:23<Eddi|zuHause># Ich werde wach. Vor meinem Bett steht ein alter Mann
15:24<Eddi|zuHause># Und sagt: 'Sie hatten einen Unfall.", und grinst mich blöde an
15:25<petern>Eddi|zuHause, come up with a good algorithm for it
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15:35<petern>SmatZ, fixing r14835?
15:36<SmatZ>petern: have I broken something?
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15:37<petern>you didn't change train_income_warn to vehicle_income_warn in settings_gui.cpp
15:37<entropy>lol
15:37<petern>FS#2496 and FS#2497
15:37<entropy>how can i adjust server version?
15:38<petern>you use a different version
15:38<entropy>err
15:38<entropy>situation
15:38<entropy>i use r14837 dedicated server and r14837 client
15:38<SmatZ>ah thanks, petern
15:38<SmatZ>what a shame, again...
15:38<entropy>and they don't connect
15:38<entropy>-_-
15:39<entropy>"version mismatch"
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>entropy: then they are _not_ the same version
15:39<entropy>no :)
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you made modifications
15:40<entropy>no!
15:40<Yexo>maybe configure couldn't find the revision for one of the builds
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15:41<CIA-9>OpenTTD: smatz * r14839 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2496](r14835): one occurence of train_income_warn wasn't updated
15:42<entropy>Server version: norev000
15:42<entropy>so what should i do
15:42<Yexo>start using svn so version autodetecting works
15:43<Yexo>you could also force a particular revision by using ./configure --revision=r14837
15:43<entropy>thx
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15:46<petern>heh, overtaking road vehicles look stupid
15:47<wonea>hehe, would be cool if a little puff of smoke came out of the back of the overtaking vehicle
15:47<wonea>like a diesel puff
15:47<gynter>you should add a rent-a-land, for eq, if you buy a land then rent it to an opponent asking certain percent of income from all vechiles which will use a station on rented land as source or destination
15:48-!-yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>gynter: there's a patch for that in the forum, called "infrastructure sharing"
15:49<petern>RVs do actually just stop and start mid overtake sometimes :o
15:49<petern>heh, even without new acceleration the RVs still go faster,
15:50<wonea>RV, is that an American term ?\
15:50<petern>road vehicle
15:50<wonea>oh okay
15:51<entropy>lol there's missing sprite in r14837
15:51<entropy>all industries are pink
15:51<petern>lol you're mixing dos and windows grs
15:51<petern>*grfs
15:51<entropy>only ECS
15:51<Yexo>entropy: try opening the newgrf window and switch the pallete for those grfs
15:54<George>Yexo: Does DOS->WIN converting works fine? There are 6 colours in DOS which are not represented in WIN (That's why I do my GRFs in WIN and than create DOS versions)
15:54<entropy>oh, George
15:54<Yexo>George: I have no idea
15:54<entropy>your GRFs are very cool :) thank you
15:55<entropy>all my GRFs are Win
15:56<Yexo>entropy: and your original grfs (trg*.grf)?
15:57<entropy>yes
15:57<entropy>trgtr.grf
15:58<entropy>ohhhhhhh right
15:59<entropy>you're right
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16:01<tosse>hi, just wonder, is it possible to remove towns?
16:01<petern>no
16:01<Yexo>tosse: only in the scenerio editor
16:02<tosse>is there any other way to generate a map say 512x512 with very few (5 or so) towns?
16:02<Yexo>open the scenario editor, create a random landscape, add a few towns yourself and generate some industries
16:03<CIA-9>OpenTTD: glx * r14840 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: remove duplicate includes
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16:12<tosse>Yexo: ok, thank, i will play with it :)
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16:24<Sacro>evening insulfrog
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16:25<qball>howdyyy
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>tosse: make a town name grf with only 5 names
16:26<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that is a beginners solution :)
16:26<TrueBrain>hack the game and make the value '5' :p
16:26<Sacro>evening qball
16:27<Sacro>HACK THE PLANET
16:27<Sacro>THEY'RE TRASHING OUR RIGHTS, TRASHING
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>hey... it is not THAT complicated :p
16:29<tosse>hehe
16:35<entropy>yeah use IDA
16:36<insulfrog>hi Sacro
16:36<insulfrog>hi to all :)
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16:56<CIA-9>OpenTTD: glx * r14841 /branches/noai/ (160 files in 10 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14827:14840
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16:58<Yexo>Rubidium: about the freeform map edges patch. The curernt version uses void tiles at the north borders, but it could be simplified a lot by removing those tiles again and making GetTileType() return MP_VOID for tiles > MapSize(). What do you think about that?
16:59<+glx>not safe enough I think
17:00*SmatZ doesn't know if it is unsafe, but is a bit sad because of that tile == 0 --> tile == INVALID_TILE work done recently :)
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17:37<CIA-9>OpenTTD: glx * r14842 /branches/noai/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r14841): of course there's a little error
17:38<petern>:D
17:38<@Rubidium>Yexo: the major problem I have is that it puts a (quite) unneeded if statement in a (I think) hot path
17:39<@Rubidium>and it'll undoubtedly cause a long series of bugs when people actually start testing the feature and reporting bugs
17:39<Yexo>well, as I said the current patch adds mp_void tiles and as such that if isn't there anymore, but SmatZ asked why that was, and I wasn't sure about your reason :)
17:40<Yexo>and it'll undoubtedly cause a long series of bugs <- the patch of that if statement?
17:40<@Rubidium>both
17:41<@Rubidium>or rather together it will
17:41<Yexo>does that mean you don't want to include the patch (without that hack) or that is just needs lots of testing beforehand?
17:42<petern>everything needs testing
17:42<@Rubidium>the first fear can be removed if someone does a proper profiling, which is quite hard
17:42<petern>especially smatz's commits ;)
17:42<petern>hmm, can road vehicles have multiple powered parts?
17:43<SmatZ>:'-(
17:43<SmatZ>today wasn't my lucky day
17:43<@Rubidium>and the bugs thing is both lots of testing, reviewing and a long stabilisation period in trunk
17:44<@Rubidium>which brings me to the question... when to branch 0.7?
17:44<Sacro>NOW!
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17:45<Yexo>the first I can do (hopefully with a little help from openttdcoop, dihedral already offered to set up the dev server with the patch). reviewing should be done by someone else (smatz already did it for an older version), and the last point is only possible after inclusion
17:45<petern>when was 0.6 branched? heh
17:46<@Rubidium>late march?
17:47<@Rubidium>@openttd commit 12395
17:47<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Commit by rubidium :: r12395 branches/0.6/ (2008-03-22 19:48:14 UTC)
17:47<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: [0.6] -Branch: the long awaited branch so we can introduce new features in trunk before 0.6.0, but not let them destabalize the pending release :)
17:47<petern>give it another couple of months then :)
17:47<Wolf01>0.6.0?
17:48<Wolf01>ah an old commit
17:48<@Rubidium>petern: AFAIK no big things had been committed to trunk since January
17:49<@Rubidium>and the fact that it happened "only" late March was because nobody dared to do it when I was on vacation (for 2 months)
17:49<petern>hehe
17:50<@Rubidium>hmm... the betas started mid November
17:50<Yexo>branching now would mean that both cargodest and noai wouldn't make it
17:50<Yexo>Rubidium: speaking of noai, any plans to resume work on nail?
17:50<@Rubidium>I don't see Celestar finishing cargodest "soon" anyways
17:51<@Rubidium>Yexo: when I've got a lot of time again, which is after my thesis
17:51<@Rubidium>which is well... far far in the future
17:53<Yexo>ok, I was just curious. It's too bad that it means noai won't make it either for 0.7
17:55-!-dvo [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:57<@Rubidium>Yexo: yes, but... I don't have an infinite amount of time and I'm not the only person capable of writting a VM
17:58<Yexo>Rubidium: I don't blame you for not having enough time :) I know you're already spending a lot oftime improving openttd
17:58-!-genclay is now known as Yeggzzz
17:58<@Rubidium>and the longer I'm working on it, the more feasible it becomes to "just" use an existing (well supported) scripting language and remove/change the few things from the API that are more developer friendly, but impossible with the default implementation
17:58<Yexo>but TrueBrain said he couldn't continue and I don't see anyone else stepping in
18:00<TrueBrain>did I say that? Cool :)
18:00<@Rubidium>s/feasible/appealing/
18:00<Yexo>TrueBrain: when I asked you about the status a few weeks back, you said you were waiting for Rubidium to continue
18:01<TrueBrain>Yexo: that doesn't say I can't continue, does it? :p
18:02<TrueBrain>it just means I need to read up in the VM :(
18:02<Yexo>not exactly, but since you didn't do anyting on nail either, I kindof assumed that you didn't want to continue
18:02<TrueBrain>;) I was waiting for Rubidium to continue or not :)
18:02<TrueBrain>and this week he told me he won't for the next N weeks :)
18:03<TrueBrain>and if you have time again to help out ..... ;) :p
18:03<Yexo>at least this gives a clear status :)
18:03<Yexo>I'd like to help out, but I haven't done anything related to nail yet, so I'd have to read up more then you do :p
18:03<TrueBrain>:)
18:04<TrueBrain>lets take it to the correct channel ;)
18:04-!-haXs [~H4Ck]z6]3@92.9.57.128] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:05<Aali>why did you decide to implement your own scripting language anyways?
18:05<TrueBrain>because the ones available suck :)
18:06<TrueBrain>Squirrel doesn't provide us with the scoping level we require
18:06<Aali>yeah, squirrel is not ideal, no argument there
18:07<TrueBrain>and alternatives there aren't really
18:08<Aali>so what are you going for with NAIL? is there a wiki page or something?
18:08<TrueBrain>nope
18:08<TrueBrain>only code :)
18:08-!-tom0004 [~Tom@92.1.163.11] has quit [Quit: http://www.chogie.eu]
18:09<Aali>hmm
18:09<Aali>cargodest is really out of sync with latest trunk :/
18:12<@Rubidium>Aali: we basically had a name the scripting language contest and burned everything down on at least one important point
18:14<Progman>lua \o/
18:16<petern>squirrel seemed to be going so well
18:16<@Rubidium>IIRC it doesn't allow us to easily hook at "variable goes out of scope"
18:16<TrueBrain>petern: it never did :)
18:16<petern>so what of the ais that had already been written...
18:16<TrueBrain>NAIL is compatible
18:16<@Rubidium>squirrel fails to do scoping when it's important
18:17<Yexo><TrueBrain> NAIL is compatible <- not completely, I guess a lot of the existing AIs will fail on small points (like missing a ';')
18:17<TrueBrain>true :)
18:17<TrueBrain>but that is a minor problem :)
18:18<SmatZ>not our problem :)
18:21-!-einKarl [~einKarl@91-66-180-201-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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18:33<petern>whatever happened to libgpmi? :p
18:33<TrueBrain>alive and kicking
18:33<TrueBrain>just not in OpenTTD
18:33<TrueBrain>Tron made sure of that :)
18:35<Sacro>God, what happened to him
18:36<@Rubidium>he's changing SimuTrans to have his coding style
18:36<petern>good
18:36<Sacro>hehe
18:36<TrueBrain>Vehicle* v
18:36<TrueBrain>... :s
18:36<petern>well apart from that
18:36<Sacro>he's off patrolling someone else's project
18:36<petern>simutrans style was horrible when i looked :p
18:36<TrueBrain>it still gives me the creeps, just thinking about that :)
18:36<TrueBrain>I never seen the code of simutrans ..
18:38<petern>heh, r3313... 3 years ago... wow
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>> grep "Vehicle\*" src/* | wc -l
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>66
18:38<@Rubidium>svn://tron.something.I.cannot.remember/
18:38<@Rubidium>^ that's where simutrans' code is
18:38<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: it used to be a lot more :)
18:39-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-82-14-72-109.glfd.adsl.virgin.net] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
18:39<@Rubidium>and quite a few of them are casts anyways
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>static int CDECL VehicleLengthSorter(const Vehicle* const *a, const Vehicle* const *b) <- i don't even know what is const there
18:39<@Rubidium>*a is
18:40<@Rubidium>hmm or actually **a is
18:40<petern>both are
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18:42-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@161-18-80-78.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:45<TrueBrain>I always found 'const' usage silly and confusing :p
18:47<SmatZ>I think it could even be "const Vehicle *const *const a", because 'a' isn't changed :)
18:47*SmatZ agrees with TrueBrain
18:48<TrueBrain>hahaha, over-constantified :p
18:48<petern>somebody had a habit a while ago of consting by-value parameters
18:48<petern>bjarni i think :p
18:49<TrueBrain>sounds useful ;)
18:49<TrueBrain>before you know it, you change a by-value :)
18:49<@Rubidium>technically a compiler might do interesting optimisations of that
18:50<SmatZ>but "restrict" is much better keyword for enabling optimisations :)
18:50<SmatZ>it says "no other pointer points to this data" (or so)
18:51<SmatZ>but it is only in C99, not C++ :(
18:51<@Rubidium>oh... so it won't work anyways (for MSVC)
18:54-!-vraa [~vraa@h168.182.213.151.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
18:55<matias>hmm.. does it matter how close you are to the industry? produced 126t, transported 78%
18:55<petern>lol
18:55<petern>monorail is not possible
18:55<petern>tee hee
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>matias: no, only the station rating matters
18:56<Aali>you saw that thread too?
18:56<petern>yes
18:56<Aali>its quite funny
18:56<petern>well, jus tnow
18:56<petern>"i'm an engineer!"
18:56<petern>haha
18:56<matias>ok, so when the ratio is 78%, you can transport 78%?
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's the internet, everybody is some kind of expert on everything
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>matias: yes, the average station rating over the month
18:57<matias>interesting
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>with some weird mix of ratings if there are two stations
19:00-!-vraa [~vraa@h168.182.213.151.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #openttd
19:03<Wolf01>'night
19:03-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-233-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
19:08-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-228-38.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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19:09-!-WhiteRhino [White@modem175.tmlp.net] has joined #openttd
19:09<WhiteRhino>Evening, folks.
19:11<TrueBrain>oh no, it is a white rhino
19:13-!-roboboy [79d99933@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
19:13-!-goodger [~ben@host81-153-85-164.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: +++ Out Of Cheese Error +++]
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19:14<WhiteRhino>What's wrong with a White Rhino? >.>
19:14-!-paulstuffins_ [~paulstuff@host86-145-26-37.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
19:15<TrueBrain>it is big!
19:15<TrueBrain>and ... WHITE!
19:15<WhiteRhino>And awesome. =D
19:19-!-DephNet[Paul] [~paulstuff@host86-145-26-37.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:20<WhiteRhino>Though I don't mean to toot my own horn. *rimshot*
19:22<Sacro>spearmint rhino?
19:24-!-Zuu [~Zuu@c-53f3e655.510-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:25-!-curosurf [~xcvxcv@wonea.demon.co.uk] has joined #openttd
19:30<WhiteRhino>Don't know if I'm tastey enough to be considered Spearmint.
19:31-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1F3D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:32-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77C7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
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19:40<CIA-9>OpenTTD: glx * r14843 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (4 files): [NoAI] -Fix [FS#2480]: AIs didn't respect ai_disable_veh_* settings. Also add a more direct access to these settings for AI writers.
19:43<WhiteRhino>My internet hasn't dumped me yet. Maybe tonight'll be better for playing online.
19:52-!-dh2k3 [~Dave@adsl-99-142-8-133.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd
19:52<dh2k3>hello
19:53-!-roboboy [79d99933@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
19:53<dh2k3>my OTTD froze and I can't kill it
19:53<dh2k3>know any solutions?
19:53-!-roboboy [79d99933@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
19:54<WhiteRhino>Ctrl-Alt-Delete?
19:54<dh2k3>nope can't kill the process unless I reboot
19:54<WhiteRhino>That might be your only option then. *shrug*
19:54<dh2k3>Description:
19:54<dh2k3> A problem caused this program to stop interacting with Windows.
19:55<dh2k3>Problem signature:
19:55<dh2k3> Problem Event Name: AppHangB1
19:55<dh2k3> Application Name: openttd.exe
19:55<dh2k3> Application Version: 0.6.3.14430
19:55<dh2k3>Application Timestamp: 48e3b12d
19:55<dh2k3> Hang Signature: 1a6a
19:55<dh2k3> Hang Type: 0
19:55<dh2k3> OS Version: 6.0.6001.2.1.0.768.3
19:55<dh2k3> Locale ID: 1033
19:55<dh2k3>Additional Hang Signature 1: a1f23cf6f6bc2c82e71ae7650c9651b9
19:55<dh2k3> Additional Hang Signature 2: b504
19:55<dh2k3> Additional Hang Signature 3: 899195c9183ed94a12f72dd21e71497c
19:55<dh2k3> Additional Hang Signature 4: 1a6a
19:55<dh2k3> Additional Hang Signature 5: a1f23cf6f6bc2c82e71ae7650c9651b9
19:55<dh2k3> Additional Hang Signature 6: b504
19:55<dh2k3> Additional Hang Signature 7: 899195c9183ed94a12f72dd21e71497c
19:55<dh2k3>Read our privacy statement:
19:55<goodger>dh2k3: pastebin, please
19:55<dh2k3> http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=50163&clcid=0x0409
19:55<dh2k3>pastebin what?
19:56<goodger>pastebin your errors rather than flooding the channel
19:56<dh2k3>that's all the errors it shows
19:56<Yexo>if you have many lines (like above), copy it to pastebin.com and poste thelink here
19:57<dh2k3>http://pastebin.com/m54b1abd1
19:57<goodger>we've already read it now
19:58-!-DephNet[Paul] [~paulstuff@host86-145-26-37.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
19:59<+glx>btw it doesn't really tell what's wrong
19:59<dh2k3>k would this help?
19:59<dh2k3>OS: Windows Longhorn XP Home Edition 6.0 Service Pack 1 (Build #6001) CPU: Intel Pentium III, 2.20 GHz Video: HP w17e Wide LCD Monitor on nVidia GeForce 8300 GS (1440x900x32bpp 60Hz) Sound: Speakers (Realtek High Definition Audio) Memory: Used: 562/2048MB Uptime: 9h 7m 53s HD: [C:HP] 90.14/456.71 GB [D:FACTORY_IMAGE] 1.25/9.05 GB Connection: Intel(R) PRO/100 VE Network Connection @ 100.0 Mbp
19:59<dh2k3>s (Rec: 106.50MB Sent: 43.88MB)
19:59-!-paulstuffins_ [~paulstuff@host86-145-26-37.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:59<+glx>I already knew it was vista :)
19:59<SmatZ> :)
19:59<dh2k3>heh
19:59<goodger>dh2k3: PASTEBIN
20:00<dh2k3>pastebin comp specs?
20:01<+glx>OS Version:,...6.0.6001.2.1.0.768.3 <-- that's vista, xp is 5.1
20:01<dh2k3>http://pastebin.com/m208c6a77
20:02<dh2k3>vista with SP1
20:02<+glx>I don't see how openttd could hang by itself (we don't use multithreading)
20:03<dh2k3>well it's hung now
20:03<dh2k3>happens daily
20:03<dh2k3>usually after a few hours it hangs
20:03<SmatZ>how can an app hang in a way it can't be killed?
20:03<dh2k3>it's Vista?
20:03<goodger>SmatZ: shitty kernel design...
20:03<SmatZ>:)
20:03<+glx>any newgrf ?
20:04-!-roboboy [79d99933@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
20:04<dh2k3>just OTTDCo-ops for multiplayer
20:04<+glx>does it happen with a nightly too ?
20:05<dh2k3>nly nightly I have is an ancient build for track sharing and working PBS
20:05<+glx>anyway if it was an infinite loop due to a bug, it should still be possible to kill it
20:05<dh2k3>OTTD-win32-r13481M-TiPP
20:05<SmatZ>does it help when you run it in a window? (maximised window instead of fullscreen)
20:05<dh2k3>dunno haven't tried windowed
20:05<SmatZ>maybe vista have problems with 8bpp apps...
20:05<+glx>could be a driver bug too yes
20:06<dh2k3>which driver?
20:06<+glx>video
20:06<dh2k3>latest from nVidia
20:07<dh2k3>only way for me to kill it is restarting comp then it works again
20:07<SmatZ>maybe it's because SP1 isn't final yet?
20:08<SmatZ>or was it SP2? ... :-x
20:08<dh2k3>Sp2
20:08<dh2k3>Sp1 is final
20:08<+glx>googling for "AppHangB1" shows it's a vista problem
20:08<+glx>many applications encounter it
20:08<dh2k3>weird thing is that this is the only one I've seen do this
20:09<+glx>IE, firefox, adobe cs3
20:09<dh2k3>FF no issues
20:09<dh2k3>don't use adobe (except for reader)
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20:10<matias>hmm.. i let the time pass and my towns got a negative growth.. why?
20:12-!-roboboy [7248d77a@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit []
20:13<WhiteRhino>That reminds me. On my short 64x64 game last night, even though I had food going to the town, the town didn't seem to grow any. In fact, after a year or two gametime, it stopped accepting food.
20:13<matias>hmm.. i'm playing grasslands
20:15<WhiteRhino>I think I was doing sub-arctic at the time.. didn't matter much given that 64x64 didn't give it much room to get to snowy areas.
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20:21-!-Sacro is now known as SpearmintRhino
20:22<WhiteRhino>Bah. =P
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20:26<WhiteRhino>Trying to find mention on the forums of help for ship usage.
20:27<Yexo>WhiteRhino: what do you want to know about ship usage?
20:27-!-roboboy [7248817b@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
20:27<WhiteRhino>How to use them without sucking. =P Any of the other three types of transport I've made decent money on, but... ships have never been anything but a moneypit for me.
20:28<dh2k3>so what to do besides restarting to fix it and kill the process?
20:28-!-DephNet[Paul] [~paulstuff@host86-145-26-37.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:29<Yexo>I don't use ships often (actually most of the time I only use trains), but when I use them it's mostly to transport oil from oil rigs to refineries
20:30-!-roboboy [7248817b@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit []
20:30<WhiteRhino>Yeah, I tried that last night before I couldn't connect to the map I was playing anymore. The canals on the map tended to be so thin that I couldn't bring the Goods deep enough into towns, though.
20:30<goodger>yes, they're fairly useless except for that...
20:31-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.186.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:31<Aali>ships are good for moving massive amounts of cargo where you don't have a lot of space
20:31<Aali>since any number of ships can occupy and load/unload on the same tile
20:31<WhiteRhino>The map also asked people not to terraform at all and not to use hovercrafts.. so other than a pair of oil tankers going to each of two offshore rigs, that was it. Didn't really get to see a profit before the map kicked me though.
20:35<goodger>whyever shouldn't you use hovercrafts?
20:36<WhiteRhino>I dunno, the map just asked not to. Maybe using them would cause people to make too much money too quickly. There was also notes asking people to only use two airports max. Didn't stop the other player that eventually joined from adding like ten, though.
20:40-!-Yeggzzz [~mind@cpc2-rdng14-0-0-cust631.winn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:41-!-dh2k3 [~Dave@adsl-99-142-8-133.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>ships are often disabled on multiplayer, because they can use a high amount of CPU time
20:42<WhiteRhino>Huh. Didn't know that.
20:42-!-DephNet[Paul] [~paulstuff@host86-145-26-37.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
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20:46<goodger>ah
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21:22<WhiteRhino>That Roboboy can't make up his mind. =P
21:24-!-roboboy [79d99933@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
21:26<goodger>apparently not
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21:41<WhiteRhino>Hmm. Dinner or TTD.
21:41<Eddi|zuHause>have a TTDinner
21:41<Eddi|zuHause>Dinner for TT
21:41<Eddi|zuHause>same procedure as last year
21:42<WhiteRhino>Ooh. Traffic Set V3.0
21:46<SpearmintRhino>ooh another Rhino
21:47-!-WhiteRhinoPSO [White@modem175.tmlp.net] has joined #openttd
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21:47<WhiteRhinoPSO>And another Rhino still-... dang.
21:47-!-WhiteRhinoPSO is now known as WhiteRhino
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23:16<WhiteRhino>Awful quiet in here lately.
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>happens, when it's 5AM
23:17<WhiteRhino>11:14pm. ;)
23:18<Eddi|zuHause>only for a very small minority of people in here :p
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23:21<WhiteRhino>Now I haven't played in awhile, but $40k seems high for a single water tanker traincar.
23:22<goodger>WhiteRhino: inflation is simulated more or less accurately...
23:23<Eddi|zuHause>WhiteRhino: newgrfs?
23:24<WhiteRhino>The only one I have is the one that changes Toyland to Mars.
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23:39<WhiteRhino>Network disconnected me. Just as well given how quickly I rode the company I'd just started into the ground.
23:42<goodger>WhiteRhino: you're wasting your time on openttd, you could be being paid £60kpa to ride companies into the ground
23:42<goodger>*real companies
23:44<goodger>incidentally, WhiteRhino, your clock is three minutes slow
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23:53<WhiteRhino>First of all, bah. =P Second of all.. you're right. My PC clock is three minutes slower than the atomic one on the wall. o.O
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 05 00:00:25 2009