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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-01-09

---Logopened Fri Jan 09 00:00:57 2009
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00:43*WhiteRhino hath returndeth.
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02:20<dihedral>good morning
02:23<WhiteRhino>Morning.
02:30-!-einKarl [~einKarl@91-66-180-201-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd
02:39<@petern>but is it?
02:42<Eddi|zuHause>it is cold, somehow
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02:58<dihedral>petern, depends
03:13<dihedral>have you guys ever thought of setting up some continuous integration system for openttd?
03:13-!-Tim [83dc24f1@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
03:13<Tim>Morning
03:13<WhiteRhino>Morning.
03:14<@petern>dihedral, a what?
03:14<Tim>Christmas is really late this year... So much new features these days :)
03:14<dihedral>continuous integration
03:15<dihedral>you either poll every x minutes for update in svn, or you install a hook script - either way
03:15<dihedral>changes trigger a build, and the involved authors are notified if the build fails
03:16<dihedral>but i guess the nightly setup is just that... polling every day at 2000 CET ;-)
03:18<Tim>Does distant joining of stations work the same as in ttdpatch?
03:18<Tim>I want to update the wiki...
03:18<DaleStan>Not quite, I believe.
03:19*dihedral waves hello to DaleStan
03:19<Tim>Big diffference?
03:19<Tim>It either has to go under: Features that are significantly different in OpenTTD
03:19<Tim>or under TTDPatch features in OpenTTD
03:21<DaleStan>Non majorly different. The difference is that TTDPatch always requires CTRL to open the Join dialog, while it's optional in Open in one somewhat rare case.
03:21<DaleStan>*Not
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03:22<Tim>Okay
03:22<Tim>I guess that can then still go under ttdpatch features in openttd
03:23<DaleStan>(That case being building a station/loading area that is adjacent to two or more stations.)
03:23<Tim>What happens in TTDPatch if you do so without pressing CTRL? Does it just choose one?
03:24<DaleStan>It errors out.
03:25<DaleStan>Can't build station here ... \n Adjoins more than one existing station/loading area
03:26<Tim>Okay, thanks :)
03:27<Tim>Are vehicle introduction dates later than 2050 possible in TTDPatch?
03:27<Tim>Just added the "Features only available in OpenTTD" and need some content, doesn't look too good empty ;)
03:29<Tim>And the higher maximum speed for road vehicles?
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03:30<DaleStan>After 2050, no. Higher speed limit!? Are you really asking that one? That's been in Patch for years. Possibly even a decade.
03:30<Tim>;)
03:30<DaleStan>... OK. So not a decade. But definitely years.
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03:36<Tim>Well, i never really played TTDPatch...
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03:37<WhiteRhino>Bedtime. Night, folks.
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03:46<Tim>Hm, i'm just wondering... Shouldn't the wiki pages "New Features since version 0.x." not be renamed to "New Features in version 0.x+1"? So "new features since 0.5.0" would be called "New features in 0.6.0"
03:48<Tim>I think that makes a bit more sense, since you could think that "New features since 0.5.0" would cover all the new features since that version, but it only covers the new features introduced until 0.6.0 came out...
03:49<Tim>Of course, New features since 0.6.0 makes sense, since it is still current...
03:50<Tim>And, additionally, it might be an idea to merge the (old) roadmaps to these pages, since both kind of list the same stuff.
03:53<Tim>AND, an overview page might also be very useful...
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03:54<Tim>I know this is a lot now... But i would volunteer to think of a good system on how to make all these pages and make an example of it on my userpage - That is, if it is not completely undesired and only if it has a slight chance of being added to the wiki
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04:18<@petern>The roadmap pages are generally junk anyway.
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04:20<Tim>Yeah, since most of the points are added the exact time the feature hits trunk :D
04:20<Tim>Like with YAPP ;)
04:20<Tim>And the points listed are mostly identical with "Major new Features" from the "New features since..." page
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04:26<@Rubidium>roadmaps are especially junk because we have absolutely no obligations to follow them
04:26<edeca>"what people want but might never get"
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04:27<Tim>That's why they are protected from editing :D
04:27<@Rubidium>and previously they became kinda wish lists because everybody added whatever (s)he wanted to the list
04:27<Tim>yeah
04:27<@Rubidium>and thus there were lots of things in the roadmaps that never got made and people started to complain a lot
04:28<@Rubidium>so we locked them
04:28<@Rubidium>and started adding stuff we were fairly certain of they would or could make it before the next release
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04:37<@petern>hehe, 0.1 to 0.3 in a month
04:37<@petern>and then 4 years for 0.3 to 0.6...
04:38<@Rubidium>and roughly 1 year between each major release
04:39<Tim>Hm, thinking about my proposal from above again... How about merging all those new features pages also with the stable release pages? My idea would be to keep the pages like "OpenTTD 0.6.0/1/2/3", "OpenTTD 0.5.0/1/2/3" etc, and make a new page "OpenTTD 0.6.x Releases", "OpenTTD 0.5.x Releases" etc (more coming)
04:40<@petern>why do we even have a ttdpatch comparison page?
04:41<Tim>On the "OpenTTD 0.6.x Releases" page there would be some general, interesting information for the normal user: The first beta published on that date, the first stable version at that date, a list of the stable versions. Then a list with new features, and maybe some other comments
04:41<edeca>petern: For people coming from ttdpatch?
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04:41<@petern>people don't come from ttdpatch
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04:42<Forked>I used the patch at first.. but when I took up TTD again some years later I went with open. I can't recall why, but I wub you guys now so I'll never go back
04:43*Rubidium started with openttd because he couldn't get his head around the assembly
04:43<@petern>i started with simutrans
04:43<@Rubidium>and because I'm always having fights wit wine
04:43<edeca>petern: Me too
04:43<@petern>god that was ugly :)
04:44<edeca>Actually some of the graphics in simutrans now are really nice, but I prefer signalling and stuff in openttd
04:44<@petern>when i first played ottd it was like... "wow, the screen scrolls smoothly"
04:44<@petern>oh god, simutrans junctions :/
04:44<edeca>Does it even *do* junctions? Heh
04:44<edeca>Trains pick platforms randomly, things like that
04:45<@petern>lol
04:45<@petern>if i search for 'simutrans junctions' on google images, nearly every image is of ottd via tt-forums
04:45<edeca>Was openttd a complete rewrite? Or did it borrow from the assembly in earlier versions?
04:46<FauxFaux>Deep.
04:46<FauxFaux>The older code in the current release is written in C, I'd rather compile it and read the asm.
04:46<edeca>FauxFaux: You like ASM?
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04:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14931 /trunk/src/effectvehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#2512]: the "animation state" of the bubbles was stored in a variable that was not stored in the savegame. Using a variable that gets saved in the savegame solves the desync and makes it a bit clearer.
04:53<@petern>nice work
04:53<edeca>"bubbles"?
04:54<dihedral>MY bubbles
04:54<@petern>edeca, toyland
04:54<edeca>Ah, toyland! :)
04:54<edeca>Does anybody play that, really?
04:54<@Rubidium>yes
04:55<edeca>Hehe, crazy people.
04:55<edeca>I really like the graphics, I just find it harder to play
04:58<@petern>weirdo
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05:06<@petern>hmm, 22" 1680x1050 for £75 :o
05:07<dihedral>not bad
05:07<@petern>ah, unfortunately i only have £105 to last the month :/
05:07<dihedral>now that the pound is _that_ low, it's worth buying it stuff there :-P
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05:44<edeca>It's OK, soon the Government will listen to all the people on BBC "have your say" and pay off all personal debt
05:48<@petern>oic
05:49<edeca>I mean, that's the "obvious" solution, right? :)
05:55<@petern>is it?
05:55<@Rubidium>until you get a glimpse on how the monetary system works it is
05:56<@petern>hmm
05:56<@petern>this code is nasty :)
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06:09<Eddi|zuHause>my head is exploding...
06:09<@petern>why?
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>i concentrate too much
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>so i get even less done...
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06:12<@petern>heh, we never did do a 0.6.4
06:13<edeca>petern: </sarcasm> earlier, just the BBC have your say makes me laugh
06:13<@Belugas>[04:56] <edeca> I really like the graphics, I just find it harder to play <-- industry and animation wise, it is the best landscape of TTD
06:14<edeca>"if the govt payed off all our debts it wud all b gd again"
06:14<edeca>Belugas: Definitely, the animation is excellent! But why do you say about the industry?
06:18<@Belugas>industry chain. very good
06:18<@Belugas>mmh..
06:18<@Belugas>good -> food
06:18<@Belugas>breakfast!
06:19<Tim>Belugas: That's why i suggested changing the default industries for temperate a little :) Yes, i know, it breaks NewIndustries and such ;)
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06:20<@Belugas>and thus, NO CAN DO ;)
06:20*Belugas is really gone for food
06:21<Tim>Too bad :(
06:21<@petern>why would we change the default industries when newgrf is around to make those changes?
06:21<Tim>But we could do a NewGRF and have it always activated :)
06:21<@petern>nope
06:22<Tim>Yes, i know... :(
06:22<@petern>why is it a problem?
06:23<Tim>I just can't get over that factory that produces Goods out of Steel, Grain and Livestock :D
06:23<@petern>the facility is there to change something, and you can use that facility. forcing the changes you want on everyone is silly.
06:23<@petern>tinned food
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06:32<TrueBrain>morning all
06:32<dihedral>hello sir
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06:36<Tim>Morning
06:37<Tim>So, here we go, tell me what you think... The idea would be to replace the old roadmaps and new features since.. pages with that
06:37<Tim>Still WIP, of course
06:37<Tim>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/User:Tim/OpenTTD_0.6.x_Releases
06:39<TrueBrain>You don't even know who did 32bpp :'(
06:39<Tim>^^ I will complete the list soon :)
06:39<Tim>By searching in the trunk.hg
06:41<Tim>did not find one way roads and timetables though
06:42<TrueBrain>Look better :)
06:42<@petern>Obfuscated commit messages \o/
06:42<frosch123>@openttd commit 9999
06:42<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Commit by rubidium :: r9999 /trunk (12 files in 5 dirs) (2007-05-31 15:15:00 UTC)
06:42<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -Feature: make it possible to disallow busses and lorries to go a specific way on straight pieces of road.
06:42<frosch123>no revision is easier to remember :)
06:42<TrueBrain>now they finally understand it sucks to use such commit messages :(
06:43<@petern>do they?
06:43<Tim>Omg... How am i supposed to find that? :)
06:43<Tim>But thanks
06:43<TrueBrain>petern: it was more an expression of hope I guess :)
06:44<@petern>ah :)
06:44<FauxFaux>You should do what we do at work, and use the commit message as the thing that gets shown to the customer for their bug being closed. OR NOT
06:45<@petern>-Fix: Customer is a cock and ... blah
06:45<Tim>Timetables, anyone?
06:45<FauxFaux>I'M WORKING FROM HOME AND COMMITTING IN THE NUDE
06:46<TrueBrain>lets hope MSVC is not a customer :p
06:46<@petern>hehe
06:46<frosch123>Tim: maedhros IIRC
06:46<TrueBrain>Tim: svn log timetable.cpp?
06:47<TrueBrain>@openttd commit 10236
06:47<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by maedhros :: r10236 /trunk (21 files in 4 dirs) (2007-06-20 19:17:22 UTC)
06:47<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Feature: Introduce a form of timetabling for vehicles.
06:48<Tim>ehm, when searching at http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/, could it be that it always only shows me the 10 first results and not all?
06:48<Tim>Thanks!
06:49<Tim>Any comments on that page? :)
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07:01<@Rubidium>Tim: you could've first taken a look at changelog.txt
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07:02<@Rubidium>Tim: your page shows classical signs of someone with German as first language
07:03<dihedral>lol
07:03<@Rubidium>and how is e.g. PigLatin a feature?
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07:05<@Rubidium>Afrikaans as language would at least be a bigger thing
07:06<@Rubidium>piglatin's autogenerated anyways
07:06<Tim>I meant rather the idea and general layout of the page rather than the specific content, since this is heavily WIP ;) The list there is from the "New Features since 0.5" and the 0.6 roadmap page...
07:08<@petern>pig latin is fucking pointless and should be removed
07:08<@Rubidium>the main question is: what's important and what's not?
07:08<Tim>Yes, true
07:09<Tim>I now just thought that maybe the Major features should be in that table on the page, with revision, date, developer, and beneath should be a list with all features, with just revision number and commit log / name
07:09<@petern>revision, date and developer are all pretty ireelevant
07:09<@petern>but spelled correctly
07:11<Tim>I think it is not that uninteresting for the major features
07:11<@petern>most of the stuff ends up with input from everyone
07:11<Tim>But probably really not needed for every small feature
07:12<TrueBrain>"who" did it is indeed very irrelevant in most cases
07:12<TrueBrain>as also: "which revision" or "date" .. nobody really cares about that when downloading a stable version ;)
07:14<Tim>Of course, someone who just wants to play does not care, but he wouldn't look at that wiki page anyway ;)
07:15<TrueBrain>fair enough :)
07:15<TrueBrain>just with the "who" I generally have a problem
07:15<Tim>Just thought it might be nice to have a place where you can look up the new features and, for the major features, get some additional information without having to search for it
07:15<TrueBrain>if not that you can rarely point to one (or several person), then because it is silly that if you make one big thing your name gets there, and if you make 1000 small things, you name never gets there :p
07:16<TrueBrain>well, what is useful, is links to wiki pages with more info on the new feature :)
07:17<TrueBrain>(how to use it ...)
07:21<@petern>yeah
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07:54<Tim>So, going home, goodbye
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08:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14932 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r14930): check more strictly the validity of order position
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09:02<TrueBrain>lalala
09:03<dihedral>ninininini
09:04<@Rubidium>night dihedral ;)
09:04<dihedral>:-)
09:04<dihedral>hehe
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09:06<Eddi|zuHause>night... that's what i need right now...
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09:15<TrueBrain>you guys are BORING!
09:15<TrueBrain>that it might be said
09:16<dihedral>you are mean - hurting our feelings like that! think we cannot read between those lines, eh?
09:16<dihedral>we for sure see what you are trying to tell us!
09:16<Forked>TrueBrain: you suck :\
09:16<TrueBrain>yeah
09:16<TrueBrain>that you guys are boring!
09:16<dihedral>now Forked that is not quite true! and he's just trying to hurt his closes friends because someone hurt him before :-P
09:17<Forked>Pretty sure I'm not a close friend, so I guess that makes me not boring :-) I withdraw my statement
09:17<TrueBrain>Forked: you are boring!
09:17<Forked>TrueBrain: you suck!
09:17<TrueBrain>you want some too?
09:18<TrueBrain>(ieuw)
09:18<Forked>(I only have sexual relations with one person, and thats my fiancè .. or however the hell you spell it :p)
09:18<Forked>and my definition of "sexual relations" is broader than bill clintons
09:18<TrueBrain>:)
09:19<TrueBrain>good to know there are decent people out here :)
09:20<edeca>Forked: What's his name? :P
09:20<mikegrb>lies
09:20<TrueBrain>bad edeca ... bad bad edeca
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09:32<Forked>edeca: it's not a guy :)
09:32-!-nfc [nfc@cable-hvk-fe7ede00-156.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd
09:32<Forked>but I'm all for gay guys, not as much as I was though
09:32<Forked>"more gay guys, less competition"
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09:51<Aali>hmm
09:51<dihedral>mmh
09:51<Aali>someone messed up the NoAI merge with distant join
09:51<dihedral>:-D
09:51<+glx>Aali: really?
09:52<+glx>more details please
09:52<Aali>as far as I can see, AIRail::BuildNewGRFRailStation is still using the old parameter format
09:52<+glx>oops it's not in regression so I missed it
09:52<Aali>and AdmiralAI complains about not being able to build railway stations
09:52<TrueBrain>bad glx :p
09:52*TrueBrain hugs glx :)
09:53<Aali>I also noticed some default-AI-style terraforming with NoAI
09:53<Aali>that one could be my fault
09:54<Aali>let me try it with a clean NoAI
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09:55<Yexo_>Aali: that terraforming is the result of AdmiralAi trying to terraform land to build a station, but as long as the station building fails, it'll try a different spot
09:55<Aali>oh, right
09:55<@Belugas>helo
09:55<dihedral>hello Belugas
09:56<dihedral>Yexo - can that not be checked better?
09:58<Aali>to be fair, the error wouldn
09:58<Aali>'t make any sense in this case
09:58<Aali>damn swedish keyboard layout
09:59<mrfrenzy>Aali: that problem only exists with some improperly designed swedish keyboards
09:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14933 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: check the whether a pool item can be constructed instead of trying to make it and check for NULL.
09:59<mrfrenzy>the proper ones don't have such a wide enter key and the ' key is where it's supposed to be
10:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14934 /trunk/src/oldpool_func.h: -Fix: in (extreme) cases CanAllocateItem could return true when there's not enough space.
10:00<TrueBrain>hi Belugas :)
10:00<Aali>switching keyboard is out of the question though
10:01<Yexo_>dihedral: any ideas? the error returned in this case doesn't make any sense. In other cases, the most likely case is that someone else build a station between the time of fiinding a good place and trying to build there. Local authority disallowing is already checked for
10:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14935 /trunk/src/ (oldpool.h oldpool_func.h): -Fix [FS#2498]: the new operator may not return NULL, so don't.
10:01<Aali>I have an old DEC keyboard from the early 90's, not giving it up :P
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10:06<TrueBrain>airspeed set to 1/1 is a good money maker :)
10:06<TrueBrain>haha
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10:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14936 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: INDUSTRYBEH_ONLY_NEARTOWN bypassed the clear-test and could e.g. result in incomplete clearing of protected houses.
10:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14937 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_rail.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r14929): of course I failed to sync correctly
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10:26<@petern>TrueBrain, and it was fixed that way for a long time ;)
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10:29<TrueBrain>cargodest sure makes the challenge to get all cargo transported away :)
10:30<@petern>sync it!
10:30<@petern>i gave up ;)
10:30<Aali>i synced it yesterday
10:30<TrueBrain>not knowledgeable enough :)
10:30<@petern>Aali, oh... how? :p
10:30<Aali>and today I fixed a bug in that sync :P
10:30<TrueBrain>with his syncing machine!
10:30<@petern>hehe
10:30<@petern>some of it is not obvious
10:31<Aali>I have PhilSophus's ITiM hg queue
10:31<Aali>he did the order class patch
10:31<Aali>said hg queue includes the cargodest version ;)
10:31<@petern>well
10:31<@petern>that's cheating
10:32<Aali>heh
10:32<+glx>the only way to sync correctly is to use hg merge
10:32<Aali>good thing I used hg merge, then
10:35<Aali>if you want to try it out, here's the bundle; http://epj.no-ip.org/upl/cargodest-merge.bundle
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10:50<Tim>...and i am back again ;)
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10:54<Aali>hmm
10:54<Aali>which part of ottd is responsible for the length of trains NoAI's build?
10:55<TrueBrain>huh?
10:55<TrueBrain>the AI? :s
10:55<Aali>AdmiralAI managed to build a train that's like, 1/100th of a tile too long, so it's blocking the station
10:56<Aali>using tropic refurbishment set
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10:58<+glx>I'd sau grf gave wrong length to openttd
10:58<+glx>*say
10:59<Aali>the length shouldn't ever change though, it's a very simple grf
10:59<Aali>(and if the length didn't change, how could it possibly give the "wrong" length?)
11:01<TrueBrain>hmm .. PBS just fucked up :s
11:01<TrueBrain>no idea why ..
11:01<+glx>TrueBrain: cargodest?
11:01<@Rubidium>probably because you were working on the junction
11:01<TrueBrain>Rubidium: no
11:01<TrueBrain>glx: yes
11:02<+glx>it probably needs a sync :)
11:02<TrueBrain>hmm .. the trains 'reversed' or something
11:02<+glx>indeed sync needed ;)
11:03*glx tried but he doesn't know enough cargodest's source
11:03<TrueBrain>we all have that problem ;)
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11:04<TrueBrain>I am trying to move away 7k pax ..
11:04<TrueBrain>hard :p
11:04<+glx>you'll fail
11:05<@Rubidium>use ships
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11:06<TrueBrain>it is (running cost) cheaper to run aircrafts over distances than using trains :)
11:06<TrueBrain>ha .. 4.5k ..
11:07<TrueBrain>4k .. getting there ;)
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11:10<TrueBrain>k, time for some food :) Bye all :)
11:13<George>Rubidium: about FS2514 - how I can collect more information to help you?
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11:21<Aali>glx: it's actually a problem with AdmiralAI
11:21<Aali>Yexo :)
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11:26<OwenS>TrueBrain, I'll leave this for your return: Your train didn't happen to reverse at a normal signal then sit forever in a PBS block did it? ;-)
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11:35<Yexo>Aali: what train grf are you using?
11:35<Aali>tropic refurbishment set
11:35<Yexo>and what cargo did the too long train transport?
11:35<Aali>copper
11:36<Aali>it only builds too long trains when the engine is long though
11:36<Yexo>that shouldn't matter
11:36<Aali>with short engines, its okay
11:36<Yexo>it builds the engine and then adds wagons until the total train is too long, then it removes the last wagon
11:37<Yexo>did the train become too long after reversing maybe?
11:37<Tim>Hm, if you build the train yourself, which length does it show in the depot?
11:37<Tim>Maybe it shows e.g. length 8, but in reality is more like 8,5
11:38<+glx>then it's grf fault :)
11:39<Yexo>Tim: the length shown is determined by ottd iirc, so it'll display 9 if the lenght is 8,1
11:39<Aali>this grf doesn't use any fancy callbacks or anything
11:39<Yexo>Aali: what train was it (type)?
11:39<Aali>let me see if that sell attempt fails..
11:40<Tim>Yexo: Yes, but maybe the grf tells OTTD that the train is 8 tiles long, when it is like 8,1 in reality. If you build the train yourself, you could see whether this is the case
11:41<Aali>Tim: that makes no sense
11:41<Yexo>Tim: the lenght of the train is the length the grf tells it has, both in the depot and after that. The only problem can be is that the length of the train can be changed via callbacks that are called when leaving the depot and when reversing
11:41<@petern>if it tells ottd it's 8 tiles long then it's 8 tiles long
11:42<Tim>okay :)
11:42<@petern>not that a grf ever 'says' such a thing
11:42<Tim>:D
11:43<Aali>Yexo: reproduced it with Class 25C engine and the smallest Water Tankers
11:43<@petern>it can only set individual engine/wagon lengths
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11:45<Yexo>Aali: I can reproduce thatby hand in recent trunk (in the depot it shows length 10, but the tile just before the station is not cleared). So it's either a newgrf or a trunk issue.
11:46<@Rubidium>it recalculates the length (including newgrf callbacks) just before leaving the depot
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11:47<@petern>what is the actual problem? heh
11:47<George>Rubidium: about FS2514 - any ECS vector causes crash
11:47<@Rubidium>a train's too long
11:48<Yexo>petern: the train show length 10 (5 tiles) in the depot, but as soon as it leaves the depot and goesto a 5-tile long station, it doesn't clear (with pbs) the rail tile just before the station, thereby blocking other trains
11:48<@petern>an AI built a train too long for a platform?
11:48<Yexo>no, the AI builds a train that has exactly the right length (when it's in the depot), but the length changes as soon as it leaves the depot (by means of a newgrf callback).
11:49<Yexo>either that or there is a bug in trunk, but I doubt that, as this same problem was fixed by Rubidium some time ago
11:49<Aali>I've got the grf right here, which callback/var/property am I looking for?
11:49<@petern>then it's a newgrf bug cos the length shouldn't really change
11:50<@petern>0x11
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11:50<frosch123>the length is cached and verified that it does not change outside of depots
11:50<@petern>or prop 31
11:51<DaleStan>I'd be surprised. That'd require, at best, an incompetent newgrf author, and likely a malicious one. It's not that hard to not check the stopped/running state in that CB.
11:51<Yexo>frosch123: does that include the time of leaving the depot, or is it allowed to change between displaying in the depot and leaving the depot?
11:51<frosch123>btw. there was some bug some month ago, were too short front engines stopped too early
11:51<frosch123>it should only change, when wagons are arranged, refitted, etc...
11:52<frosch123>+h
11:52<@petern>DaleStan, yeah, it takes effort to make it change :)
11:52<Yexo>frosch123: should or can?
11:52<Aali>hmm
11:54<Aali>the grf does mess with the length, but I have no idea why
11:55<Aali>or when
11:56<Aali>oh
11:56<Aali>now I see it
11:57<Aali>AdmiralAI refits AFTER checking the length
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11:57<tom0004>yay! stuck pixels :|
11:57<Yexo>Aali: does refitting cause the wagon length to change?
11:58<Aali>wait, that's not right..
11:58<@petern>it can do
11:58<Aali>you can't even refit those wagons
11:58<@petern>heh
11:59<goodger>tom0004: wikipedia suggests flashing primary colours at high speed
11:59<Aali>the engine (Class 25C and some others) returns different values for different CargoID's though
11:59<@petern>that's normal
11:59<@petern>you can't refit outside of a depot
12:00<Yexo>Aali: that still doesn't explain the issue in trunk with the class 25 and water wagosn
12:00<@petern>goodger, a hammer would do it
12:00<Aali>Yexo: indeed
12:00<goodger>petern: would have to be a very small hammer
12:00<Yexo>I'll fix the (possible) problem with having a too long train after refitting though
12:00<goodger>I can barely see subpixels at 15cm away
12:01<Aali>could it be possible that the callback only activates when it leaves the depot?
12:01<frosch123>Aali: you should really send the train to depot, and check whether it is too long, or whether the train stopped before reaching the end of the platform
12:02<Yexo>frosch123: I already did that. The train shows length 10 in the depot, but it doesn't fit in a 5-tile station
12:02<Aali>so, when you build it, it isn't carrying anything, you add some wagons (and the callback isn't called here) but when you leave the depot it suddenly has a cargo type?
12:02<Aali>or is that not how it works?
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12:07<Aali>frosch123: it is stopping too early
12:08<Aali>I can make it fit in the station by start/stopping it manually
12:08<frosch123>@openttd commit 14526
12:08<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Commit by rubidium :: r14526 /trunk/src (station_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp) (2008-10-24 20:53:57 UTC)
12:08<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -Fix [FS#2379]: make sure trains stop at the end of a station; a 3/8th length train did stop 2/8th of it's length too early causing a 63/8th long train not to fit in a 4 tile station.
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i am one power outlet short...
12:09<Aali>frosch123: one small problem, this is r14927
12:10<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: you can have this one *holds up*
12:10<goodger>I just unplugged a monoxide detector from it; after I noticed the words "made in w. germany" on the detector, it tripped my circuit breaker
12:10<frosch123>so does it also apply to trunk, or only noai. create a savegame with trunk without ais, with only the single train grf, and one depot, one station and one train that shows the problem, and post that to flyspray
12:12<frosch123>he, the old bug was reported by yexo, so blame him :p
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12:16<frosch123>it also helps when the last rail track before the station is horizontal/vertical, so you can see where the last wagon is located
12:17<Aali>I've made a save with two identical trains, one loading, one thats really in the station, you can clearly see that they're not in the same position
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>better question... i have an extension now, but which one can i safely unplug, to plug the extension in?
12:19<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: monitor?
12:19<goodger>enjoy digging around in your cable mass trying to trace the monitor's power cable to the power strip
12:20<Yexo>frosch123: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2515
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12:21<Eddi|zuHause>i took the one where i was pretty sure of that it's the external harddrive
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12:24<Aali>bah, I posted a flyspray entry too :P
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13:06<@petern>so
13:06<goodger>so...
13:06<@petern>so!!!
13:07<goodger>well then!
13:10<@Belugas>nope
13:10<@Belugas>not me
13:10<@Belugas>Happy Songs for Happy People
13:18<Yexo>Rubidium: docs/landscape.html is not yet updated to reflect the fact that 15 companies are now possible.
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>write a flyspray task ;)
13:19<Yexo>too lazy now to do that :p
13:24<@Belugas>or a patch...
13:25<Yexo>I just found out that docs/landscape_grid.html is outdated too, and I'm not sure I can update them both correctly
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13:34<Yexo>I want something like CompanyMask, but for IndustryTypes. What would be the best way to create that (given the current limition of 64 industry types per game)?
13:35<Yexo>I could use vector<bool>, but I heard there was something against that?
13:35<@Rubidium>uint16 an hasbit/setbit?
13:35<Yexo>uint16 for 64 types?
13:36<@Rubidium>yes, using goodgers integers
13:36<@Rubidium>+'
13:37<Yexo>does hasbit/setbit work in uint64 (does that type exist in openttd?)?
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13:38<@petern>1n!
13:38<el_en>petern!
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see a particular reason why it wouldn't
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13:41<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: me neither, but I don't know much about other platforms openttd works on
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13:42<@petern>there should be a dos nightly ;)
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13:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there is a TTDPatch for DOS, why isn't there an OpenTTD for DOS?!?!11einself
13:45<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: there isn't?
13:46<@Rubidium>the major reason there no nightlies of it is the fact that it kinda fails on real hardware
13:46<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/dos-attack.png <- but in dosbox it works
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>well, not in binary form...
13:47<DaleStan>why isn't there an OpenTTD for DOS?!?!11einself <-- Because OpenTTD for DOS would have to be compiled with L4 and L5 starting at [fs:0] and [gs:0]. :p
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>err... that's kinda too technical...
13:48<George>Does CB 11 not work for the first RV in consist? It looks like it has always a length of 8. Is that intended?
13:48<OwenS>DaleStan, Why not just use DPMI and sidestep real mode segmentation? :P
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13:50<DaleStan>OwenS: Because [fs:si] only takes three bytes, while [DWORD+esi] takes five. (It's a reference to the hassle that is patching L4 and L5 accesses in TTDPatch.)
13:51<frosch123>George: it is called, but maybe at the wrong moment, i.e. before all articulated parts are built
13:51<Aali>sweet, a reproducable MSVC crash
13:52<George>and if the vehicle is not articulated?
13:52<el_en>Bjarni!
13:52<@Bjarni>that's me :)
13:56<George>DaleStan: Wiki says about prop 21 for trains "This property does not work for the first vehicle in a train (i.e. the engine)". Why is it impotant?
13:57<Aali>glx: got another "fun" NoAI bug for you :)
13:57<+glx>explain
13:58<Aali>if you activate AIs in multiplayer clients will try to run AIs (from Load_AIPL) which obviously asserts instantly
13:58<DaleStan><Yexo> I could use vector<bool>, but I heard there was something against that? <-- The problem with vector<bool> is that it is not a container. If you don't need iterators, then I think everything should work.
13:58<+glx>and please go in #openttd.noai for all noai related stuff :)
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13:59<George>AFAIR, my tests long ago in TTDP with CB 11 worked rather fine (I had a train of two parts - 50% and 37% shorter)
13:59<DaleStan>George: Ask patchman.
13:59<DaleStan>That's before my time.
13:59<George>DaleStan: Is he here?
13:59<DaleStan>He's in the other place.
13:59<George>What place
14:00*glx guesses #tycoon
14:02<@petern>Bjarni... exists?
14:03<George>OTTD devs: Would it be possible to allow smaller lengths of the first engine in the consist? (see comment to prop 21)
14:03<@Bjarni>I have been busy for a while (and ill so I didn't feel like coding/being online) and people assume that I died or something :S
14:04<el_en>Bjarni: well you said you've been ill and in a hospital, and then you disappear for over a month...
14:05<+glx>Aali: it's because TrueBrain did something wrong in r14917 :)
14:05<Aali>right :)
14:06<@Bjarni>el_en: right... well I didn't die or go to any hospital this time XD
14:06*petern stops being licked to death
14:06<@Bjarni>licked?
14:07<@Rubidium>George: do you know what nightly is the last known working one for FS#2514?
14:07<@Rubidium>and thus which one is the first broken
14:08<+glx>Aali: try http://glx.dnsalias.net:8080/openttd/fix_r14917.diff
14:08<George>I have only 14845, but if you'll tel me how to download ones inbetween, I can download and test
14:09<+glx>George: http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/noai/
14:10<George>glx: I'll try
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14:18<George>glx: and why win32 version is not represented in http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/noai/r14920/ folder?
14:20<el_en>has everyone noticed that €1 ≈ £1, and taken advantage of that?
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14:20<Yexo>George: there was a bug last night so compiling failed iirc
14:22<George>Then I suppose the problem may be because I loaded win9x version and did not had a look, that it is not win32 version. Than it is not strange that it crashes :)
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14:23<OwenS>el_en: I've noticed, to my disadvantage :-(
14:23<Wolf01>hello
14:23<George>at least 14937 works fine again and I can't reproduce any crash I had
14:29<@Bjarni>hi Wolf01
14:29<Wolf01>hello Bjarni
14:29<De_Ghosty>NOT_REACHED triggered at line 948 of ..\src\string.cpp
14:29<De_Ghosty>fix it
14:29<De_Ghosty>fix it
14:31<Wolf01>you have hands, fix it yourself :D
14:33-!-NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@xbl.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
14:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14938 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp settings_gui.cpp): -Fix: some small inconsistencies w.r.t. "0 is disabled" setting handling
14:39<De_Ghosty>i can't commit
14:39<De_Ghosty>what's the point of fixing it
14:39<Wolf01>make a patch and send it to devs
14:40<Wolf01>they will be happy
14:40<edeca>De_Ghosty: Eh, that's silly, where do you think some feature enhancements are from?
14:42<el_en>well De_Ghosty has a point.
14:43<Alberth>...
14:43<@Rubidium>De_Ghosty: what's the point in fixing a bug we (the devs) are not experiencing?
14:43-!-nicfer [~Administr@xbl.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
14:43<edeca>Why should the devs bother coding for platforms they don't use? Or adding features they don't like?
14:43<el_en>edeca: well do they bother?
14:44<edeca>el_en: For features, sure. For platforms, possibly not as much
14:44<De_Ghosty>what indeed
14:44<@petern>platforms like OS X? :p
14:44<De_Ghosty>who use osx
14:44<@Rubidium>just look at OS X... it doesn't work for all languages
14:44<De_Ghosty>drop!
14:45<De_Ghosty>lol
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14:46<edeca>And most of the devs seem to speak english, why should they bother translating? ;)
14:46<@Rubidium>do devs (except glx) translate?
14:47<edeca>Rubidium: You provided the framework for it, I'm assuming
14:47<edeca>Rubidium: You at least committed it, which means you accept some responsibility for making it work
14:47<edeca>Rubidium: Heck, I was sticking up for you! ;)
14:48<@Rubidium>more languages is more an educational thing ;)
14:48<nicfer>I would like that houses weren't so spacious in OTTD
14:48<edeca>Heh, maybe I should play in German or something
14:48-!-fjb [~frank@p5485D5A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
14:48<fjb>Hello
14:48<edeca>Vorsprung durch technik and all that
14:48<edeca>fjb: Hello!
14:48<nicfer>currently a house can hold 65 inhabitants, which is kinda unrealistic
14:49<@petern>nicfer, go away
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>edeca: "Überholen ohne einzuholen"
14:50<nicfer>reducing the houses' capacity would have more effects than more realism
14:50<@Rubidium>nicfer: go write a newgrf
14:50<edeca>Eddi|zuHause: I agree
14:50-!-nicfer was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [FUCK REALISM !!!]
14:50<@petern>ah ha
14:50-!-nicfer [~Administr@xbl.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
14:50<@Rubidium>someone got really annoying ;)
14:51<@Belugas>yar!!
14:51<nicfer>I'm not going totally for realism
14:51-!-energetic [~opera@ip82-139-119-221.lijbrandt.net] has joined #openttd
14:51<@petern>a house as shown in game does not represent an individual house
14:51<nicfer>what molests me is the scaling
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>edeca: that was a propaganda phrase that was used in east germany, usually in conjunction with a statistics of the next useless product they could find, which had higher production rate than west germany
14:52<edeca>Eddi|zuHause: Heh! I made sure it wasn't rude then just agreed :)
14:52<energetic>I am tring to build ottd, installed vs2k8, tortoisesvn, downloaded code, tried compiling. FAIL with 7 errors - errors like "cant find png.h". This makes me believe I do not have all source files?
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>translation means something like "overtaking without catching up"
14:52<nicfer>bus stops of the size of a house?
14:52<edeca>energetic: It's much easier to compile in cygwin
14:52<nicfer>that affects more than realism
14:53<@Rubidium>energetic: openttd depends on some libraries and related headers
14:53<edeca>nicfer: It's pointless arguing about specifics, but sure as hell most busses are longer than my house is wide.
14:53<edeca>nicfer: Perhaps you're really rich.
14:53<energetic>ok, and those libs arent donwloaded when I checked out ottd 063...?
14:53<@Rubidium>energetic: no, but take a look at http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_2008_Express_Editions
14:54<edeca>energetic: Try cygwin too, there's a great tutorial on the wiki and it works well
14:54<nicfer>in multiplayer, it's common to see companies steal passengers from others in cities
14:54<@Belugas>nicfer, how many times should it be repeated ??? IT's a game, with its OWN REALITTY. DOn't try to adjust it to yoyurs, enjoy it for waht it is.goddam
14:54<dihedral>can anybody let me stream it crows?
14:54<dihedral>*crowd
14:54<edeca>dihedral: Have you tried turning it off and on again?
14:54<@petern>"steal passengers" haha
14:55<energetic>tnx rubidium. the link I followed in the wiki is almost empty: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B
14:55<Eddi|zuHause><nicfer> bus stops of the size of a house? <- a bus is not significantly shorter than an average 1 family home
14:55<@Rubidium>energetic: if only you looked at the few links at the bottom of that page ;)
14:56<edeca>Eddi|zuHause: Like I said, busses are bigger than my house ;)
14:56<nicfer>how could 8 companies make profit from taking passengers from a small city?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>i think that relation is one of the closest to being "realistic"
14:56<energetic>ah, its a doorway page...
14:56<energetic>now i see....
14:56*edeca gives up and goes to play
14:57<energetic>edeca:
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14:57<edeca>energetic:
14:57<edeca>Ooh, secret talking!
14:57<energetic>i tried cygwin before, a few more times, but i seem to always fail on default
14:57<energetic>with cygwin
14:57<energetic>where i seem to succeed by default with vs2kx
14:58<edeca>energetic: Aah :)
14:58<energetic>dont ask me why, i prolly am MS indoctrinated.... cant help that.
14:58<edeca>energetic: What fails, out of interest?
14:59<energetic>edeca: it's a psycho thing. I have to learn vygwin each time again. after a long time, i get it running with stutters. i know its nice though.
14:59<edeca>energetic: I'm the other way round, I use linux more so am used to it
14:59<energetic>its more that _I_ fail, instead of cygwin.
14:59<edeca>energetic: I guess it depends what you're used to
14:59*nicfer gets interesed in the shared structure patch
15:00<edeca>nicfer: What's that?
15:01<@petern>it is a patch for infrastructure that is shared
15:01*edeca googles
15:02<nicfer>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=37455
15:02<nicfer>it was infrastructure, not structure
15:04<nicfer>and any chance of getting the airport noise function extended to road/rail stations and docks?
15:04<edeca>nicfer: Code it yourself damnit :)
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15:07<edeca>Hm, what could be wrong if ottd crashes due to newgrfs but doesn't list those which are 'missing'?
15:08<@Rubidium>then it failed somewhere else in the saveload
15:08<edeca>Hm, I built with debug, let's see if that helps
15:08<edeca>Or I could just start a new game with some new newgrfs, that might be more fun
15:08<edeca>Weird, it loaded now I ran with -d1 :)
15:09<Alberth>edeca: also enable core dump
15:10<nicfer>oh, other question, would be possible to place railways without owner (or owned by a city)?
15:10-!-fjb [~frank@p5485D5A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:10<edeca>nicfer: What for?
15:11<energetic>Can I use the directx sdk of nov 2008 instead of aug 2007?
15:12<@Rubidium>energetic: no, you can't
15:12<energetic>ok tnx
15:12<nicfer>it would be useful for when companies go bankrupt with track sharing
15:12<energetic>the FAQ says different though
15:12<nicfer>currently it's possible with roads
15:12<@Belugas>shut up troll
15:12<energetic>"Install the version November 2007 or later"
15:12<@Rubidium>then someone fracked up the faq
15:13<@Rubidium>cause august 2007 is the last one with directmusic
15:13<@Rubidium>anything later doesn't have that
15:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14939 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
15:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Follow standard *ChangeInfo() pattern for global variables during
15:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: reservation. Whilst not strictly necessary for global variables, following the
15:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: same pattern makes it easier to follow. This also solves the long standing
15:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: ChangeInfoResult/bool warning for MSVC.
15:14<@Rubidium>oh... what the FAQ says is install something, then extract the august 2007 version and copy some files
15:14<@Rubidium>which means mixing directx sdk versions and that might work, but I wouldn't bet on it
15:15<+glx>wow we finally got this warning fixed
15:15<Yexo>I've followed that faq (using the directx sdk august 2008) and the only way I can compile now is by disabling music
15:16<@Rubidium>so it's official... a fracker updated the directx sdk version to the latest without testing, just because there was a new sdk
15:17<edeca>:)
15:18<@Rubidium>anyhow... I'm not touching it as I can't test whether what I would be saying actually works
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15:18<@Rubidium>but all I know is that the directx sdk august 2007 worked (as of august 2008 with msvc 2008) and later ones miss directmusic
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15:26<Nite_Owl>Hello all
15:27<dihedral>hu-hu
15:30<Nite_Owl>I am guessing that I should respond with Hello dihedral ?
15:34<frosch123>lol, George: The vehicle callbacks never ever change the bounding box
15:34<frosch123>they overlap instead
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15:37<George>frosch123: Looks like they do. When I chane that grf so that all the vehicels are articulated, BBs are shown shorter. Do you need a screen shot?
15:38<frosch123>also in corner?
15:38<George>All this behaviour makes me very confusing.
15:38<+glx>George: to reproduce the newgrf window crashes I just need to open and close the window?
15:38<George>frosch123: No, not in corners
15:39<George>glx: FS 2514 - 14920 for win9x under win32? yes
15:40<+glx>no crash for me :/
15:40<frosch123>George: you can see in your 7+4+5 that all BB have length 8
15:40<frosch123>the same applies to trains
15:40<Yexo>I have another (maybe the same) crash with the newgrf window
15:41<Yexo>Open it, select any preset and then click on one of the newgrfs
15:42<Yexo>that is using r14936 btw
15:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14940 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp statusbar_gui.cpp statusbar_gui.h): -Fix: let the statusbar know the current news are invalid or bad things will happen
15:43<George>glx: in r14937 I simply run the game and minimize the window. Then the crash window popups
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15:47<energetic>tnx for elaborating, rubidium
15:50<George>frosch123: what a pity that you have closed FS2518 soo quickly! I could put some more GRFs and screen shots there :)
15:50<@petern>for what reason?
15:51<frosch123>George: why do you bother about the bounding boxes? the articulated parts have the correct distant to each other nevertheless
15:52<George>I hope they are, but I'm looking for a way to control it. I supposed I could use BBs to control it
15:52<@petern>to control what?
15:53<George>I want to make longer RVs in a form like 6-4-6, where only the midle part has graphics, while other are invisible
15:54<George>petern: to control position in the TTD world (BBs) to achieve less glitches
15:54<@petern>the bounding box is not really the cause of glitches when trying to use longer vehicles
15:55<George>As you can remember, I planned to do LV5 in 2008-th. I asked to provide large RVs, but got ananswer to make them articulated. Now I decided to try it the articulated way
15:55<George>petern: Can you suggest other way to controll glitches?
15:58<+glx>George: what AI is/are used in FS#2514 ?
15:59<George>admiralai = start_date=12,use_busses=1,use_trucks=1,use_planes=1,use_trains=1,build_statues=1,always_autorenew=0,depot_near_station=1,debug_signs=0
15:59<George>BigBrain = start_date=12,use_busses=1,use_trucks=1,use_planes=1,use_trains=1,build_statues=1,always_autorenew=0,depot_near_station=1,debug_signs=0
15:59<George>Jinjaba = start_date=12
15:59<George>saintai = start_date=12
15:59<George>Convoy = start_date=12,Agressive=1
15:59<George>pathzilla = start_date=12,latency=0,aggressive=1
15:59<George>wrightai = start_date=12,min_town_size=500
15:59<George>I suppose OTTD uses AIs listed in cfg file?
15:59<Yexo>George: yes
16:00<George>AI folder has the following dirs:
16:00<George>05.01.2009 23:14 <DIR> admiralai
16:00<George>05.01.2009 12:28 <DIR> BigBrain
16:00<George>27.12.2008 21:13 <DIR> Convoy
16:00<George>18.07.2008 20:23 <DIR> Jinjaba
16:00<George>09.01.2009 17:26 <DIR> library
16:00<George>27.12.2008 14:24 <DIR> pathzilla
16:00<George>09.01.2009 17:26 <DIR> regression
16:00<George>27.12.2008 21:16 <DIR> robotAI
16:00<George>27.12.2008 21:17 <DIR> saintai
16:00<George>09.01.2009 17:26 <DIR> wrightai
16:00<+glx>compress the folder and attach it to the task :)
16:00<+glx>will be easier for me
16:01<George>AI folser or OTTD folder?
16:01<Yexo><+glx> compress the folder and attach it to the task :) <- you should lookout with that for AIs that don't specify a licence :p
16:01<+glx>Yexo: I just don't want to search for them on the forum
16:01<+glx>George: AI folder + openttd.cfg
16:02<Yexo>glx: I don't care myself, and I don't think anyone does
16:02<+glx>and AIs are not like newgrf anyway :)
16:02<Yexo>that doesn't say they can't have a licence :)
16:03<George>glx: done
16:03<@petern>guys
16:03<@petern>just make a statement that AIs must be ... blah blah blah distributable blah blah blah
16:04<@petern>although
16:04<@petern>whatever :)
16:04<Yexo>petern: that's impossible
16:04<Yexo>for the new tournament server it'll hopefully be a requirement though that submitted Ais are gpl
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16:09<George>frosch123: Sorry, was mistaken about BBs. Confused myself :(
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16:21<dihedral>does anybody know the name of the title song of the it crowd?
16:24<Sacro>yes
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16:26<dihedral>Sacro: care to share?
16:26<Sacro>I don't know it personally
16:26<Sacro>but someone must
16:27<mrfrenzy>tv.com probably knows
16:29<joachim>wikipedia knows the composer
16:30<Aali>found and fixed another bug in my cargodest merge \o/
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16:41<el_en>why didn't anyone tell me the СССР had two very successful rovers on moon?
16:44<@petern>http://www.scene.org/redhound/AYB.swf < those were the days
16:45<Sacro>what happen?
16:46<joachim>somebody set up us the bomb
16:46<joachim>oh.
16:47<joachim>that was the thing
16:47<@Belugas>el_en, why didn't you tell us you were interested in knowing that? And why should we care about that anyway?
16:50<dihedral>ha ha ha
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17:14<SmatZ>el_en: because of anti-cccp propaganda?
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17:34<Eddi|zuHause><George> I want to make longer RVs in a form like 6-4-6, where only the midle part has graphics, while other are invisible <- what i said previously: i believe, what is needed, is a flag/callback/whatever for certain articulated vehicles to specify "no bend", and the drawing code handling them, as drawing them relative to the position of the previous vehicle, not on the position of the current vehicle
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17:36<Tim>Hm, too bad, i'd love to have a cargodest build with the new features in trunk... :-/
17:36<George>Eddi|zuHause: And why should it be ARTICULATED? IMHO (devs has other opinion) it would be better to have single vehicles of a larger size, like it was done in TTDP.
17:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14941 /branches/noai/src/saveload/ai_sl.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r14841): remove an unneeded file (sync failure again \o/)
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>George: because longer vehicles do not fit in tunnels, whereas two half-vehicles would
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17:37<frosch123>this discussion is silly, long vehicles will always glitch as there is just no room on the tiles
17:37<frosch123>even the current vehicles are too long :p http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2461/getfile/3688/vehicle.png
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>if the front half drives into a tunnel, the back half would be drawn like a normal vehicle
17:37<energetic>when is 0.7 planned?
17:37<frosch123>right after dbset 0.9
17:38<@Rubidium>and just before ttdp 2.5
17:38<energetic>okok i mean, is there any timeframe 07 is expected?
17:38<Aali>Tim: that's not a problem if you can compile it yourself
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>will be packaged with duke nukem forever
17:39<energetic>jjust curious ;)
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17:39<George>frosch123, Rubidium, Eddi|zuHause: http://george.zernebok.net/temp/testw.grf
17:39<Tim>But would i not have to merge cargodest to trunk myself then? I'm sure there would be errors which i can certainly not sort out myself ;)
17:40<George>Ideas? I need to come to some solution about LV5
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>i will not be starting openttd for at least one week...
17:40<frosch123>George: take a look at dbset, it also has long engines (some electric ones) which are made of multiple parts
17:40<frosch123>they look ok on straight track
17:41<frosch123>on slopes and in corners there is generally no solution
17:41<Aali>Tim: I have a bundle with the merge I've done, which should work properly now :P you'd just have to unbundle that in the hg repo, update and compile
17:42<George>frosch123: I understand, that everything is very bad from every side :S , but something has to be dine
17:42<George>I want LV5
17:42<frosch123>just split the vehicles in multiple parts
17:43<frosch123>and don't care when they move against each other in corners and on slopes
17:43<George>How do you see the 15m single body bus to be splited?
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>in the middle...
17:44<Tim>Aali: Hm, i guess it would take some time until i learn to do so ;)
17:45<George>And a front part of a single body is turned according to the other? Eddi|zuHause, it would make everybody mad :S At least me for sure
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i suggested the "no bend" flag. it just has to be implemented...
17:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14942 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r14878)[FS#2517]: don't forget to remove any references to a deleted object
17:46<George>Eddi|zuHause: But how would it look like? I mean in corners?
17:46-!-Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
17:47<frosch123>George: http://www.math.tu-clausthal.de/~mtce/ottd/dbsetlongengine.png that is the best you can get
17:48<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the no bend flag does not help at all, as the vehicles would stick out of the tile and glitch with everything
17:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14943 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: remove some rogue spaces/replace some rogue tabs with spaces
17:49<George>frosch123: Sorry, but imho http://george.zernebok.net/temp/testw.grf is better.
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>they glitch with _something_ for sure, but the main problems imho with long vehicles are:
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>a) glitches in road stations, which would be impossible, since articulated vehicles cannot enter them
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>b) glitches in tunnels, vehicles disappearing when half of it would still be visible
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>both of these could be solved
17:50-!-TheMask96 [martijn@sirius-r5.ne2000.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>glitches in curves are lesser, because there is usually more space at the "hangover" (:P) part
17:51-!-blathijs_ [~matthijs@drsnuggles.stderr.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>means as long as you do not overdo it with the length, it should usually be fine
17:52<frosch123>George: as you like, just that they glitch with foundations, tunnels, depots, ...
17:53<George>I know. I think I should Make a poll. Let's see what users think
17:54-!-ecke [~ecke@xbl.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
17:54<@petern>this is merely a problem for you, other sets don't seem to need vehicles so long
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17:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14944 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 5 dirs): -Cleanup: add spaces around some operators
17:57<worldemar>Hi there! yesterday i had played openttd and noticed that my rail stations does not accept oil whet built 1 sqare far from oil refinery, but AI's do. Is it normal?
17:58<+glx>yes, not all tiles of an industry accept everything
17:58<+glx>use the query tool
17:58<George>And is var 45 (Curvature info) avalable for RVs?
17:58<@Rubidium>for refineries the towers with the fire accept the oil
17:58<frosch123> if (v->type != VEH_TRAIN) return 0; <- no
17:58<@petern>it could be though
17:59<frosch123>but there is no reason to allow them :)
17:59<frosch123>+not
17:59<George>I suppose this would allow to apply both your and my solution
18:00<George>frosch123: So, it could be done?
18:00<@Rubidium>so much can be done, but all takes time
18:00<frosch123>it's a one-liner
18:01<George>frosch123: Do you mean it can be done EASILY? Please!
18:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14945 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Feature(ette): Support var 0x45 (curvature info) also for road vehicles.
18:05-!-WhiteRhino [White@modem169.tmlp.net] has joined #openttd
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>lmao ;)
18:05<George>Cool! Thank you frosch123!
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18:26*TrueBrain waves :)
18:26<Tim>Hm, what would you say, how long would it take to learn coding NewGRF Industries?
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>no use waving after him, he is probably long gone after 7 minutes :p
18:27<Tim>Aim: Creating my own Industry-Set based on the original industries, with some changes and some new industries
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>Tim: two days, two weeks, two years
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>two days to learn NFO basics, two weeks to learn newindustries basics, two years to design a set
18:28<Tim>Uff
18:28<Tim>How frustrating *g*
18:28<TrueBrain>sounds like a nice estimated :)
18:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14946 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix: copying a location from the extra viewport to the main viewport did not cancel vehicle following
18:28<frosch123>Tim: when you know how to program a micro controller with no registers except one accumulator you should be good prepared
18:29<frosch123>infact newindustries without graphics should be the easiest newgrf task
18:29<Tim>Haha, good one
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>if only anyone had done a high level language to be transformed into nfo...
18:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14947 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix [FS#2519]: vehicle following did not update the location from where to smooth scroll, thus any new viewport center would smooth scroll from the location where you were just before you started following the vehicle
18:30-!-Bergee [~bergee@c-68-40-190-70.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:30<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: feel free
18:30<TrueBrain>I supply you with the basics
18:30<TrueBrain>you do the rest
18:30<TrueBrain>k?
18:30<joachim>thanks Rubidium
18:31<joachim>(since most comments seems to be complaints or requests)
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>well, i have the basics... (the thread and a preview version is in the forums)
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>what i need is time...
18:31<TrueBrain>fair enough :)
18:32<TrueBrain>like we all need :)
18:32<Tim>Hm, which grf features some nice Passenger-Train-Stations? As an addition to the ISR-Set
18:32<Tim>I know there are many different, just give me one good one :D
18:33<frosch123>newstations only has passenger stations, so maybe you find some nice :p
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>i practically only use MB's stations
18:35-!-vraa [~vraa@h134.79.20.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #openttd
18:36<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: btw, url?
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm... search for "newgrf description language" in the ttdpatch graphics forum
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>don't expect too much ;)
18:36<TrueBrain>I hate searching :)
18:36<TrueBrain>but tnx anyway :)
18:42<Sacro>timidity is dropping instruments :(
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>does it smash guitars on the stage?
18:42<Sacro>how do i pass timidity parameters? need to tell it -Od
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>from the config file?
18:44<Sacro>ahh
18:44<Sacro>alias timidity=timidity -Od
18:44<Tim>So, finally i'm about to set up my new game :) With BaseCostsMod, Expensive Bridges, ECS Town, Basic and Machinery, DBSetXL, GRVTS, NewShips, Aviators Aircraft, ISR and NewStations :)
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>i'd have said: extmidi = timidity -Od
18:45<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: doesn't work
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>what is "expensive bridges"?
18:45<Sacro>hmm, do i need to use padsp
18:45<el_en>are there any platforms currently that have an endianness other than big or little?
18:45<Sacro>hmm
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>and why not use total bridge renewal? they look lovely :)
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>el_en: i am certain there is, but i don't think they are actually widespread :p
18:46<+glx><Eddi|zuHause> i'd have said: extmidi = timidity -Od <-- invalid since r14909
18:46<Sacro>right, timidity can play it just fine
18:46<Sacro>glx: what is the replacement?
18:46<OwenS>el_en: I presume PDPs don't count :p
18:46<+glx>musicdriver = extmidi:cmd=...
18:47<+glx>instead "extmidi = ..."
18:47<el_en>indeed PDPs were middle-endian, but i suppose they are a bit out of scope for most coders, even the ones who like old systems.
18:47<TrueBrain>I hate microsoft ... everyone was getting used to using QR barcodes to give information to phones via the camera ... now microsoft has invented his own format, completely different .. AND stores information on THEIR global server .... /me hates microsoft
18:48<Tim>hmhmhm... Why doesn't DBSetXL work? Isn't it suited for arctic? :-/
18:48<Sacro>glx: musicdriver = extmidi:timidity -Od
18:48<Sacro>?
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>the microsoft definition of "standard": whatever the others agreed on, we do it differently!
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>Tim: no, only temperate
18:48<Sacro>@version 14909
18:48<@DorpsGek>Sacro: version takes no arguments
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>or arctic with alpine grf
18:48<+glx>Sacro: yes (if I understood the commit message)
18:48<Sacro>@history 14909
18:48<Sacro>err,
18:48<Sacro>@commit 14909
18:48<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Commit by peter1138 :: r14909 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2009-01-08 12:05:14 UTC)
18:48<@DorpsGek>Sacro: -Codechange: Remove global option for the extmidi driver and make it a driver parameter with the name cmd instead. This means if you have an "extmidi = ..." line in your config you must change it to "musicdriver = extmidi:cmd=...", in the [misc] section.
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: musicdriver = extmidi:cmd=timidity -Od
18:49<frosch123>Tim: could be your first exercise :) create a grf that does nothing but uses the grfid of "alpine" :p
18:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14948 /trunk/src/ (statusbar_gui.cpp statusbar_gui.h): -Codechange: enumification and more comments in the statusbar code
18:50<Sacro>that doesn't work
18:50<Sacro>sigh
18:50<Tim>frosch123: And what would be the use of that? :)
18:51<Sacro>of course it doesn't help that openttd keeps removing the last quote
18:51<frosch123>then you can use dbset in arctic, though I guess you would need the ecs addition to transport arctic cargo
18:51<Sacro>petern: it keeps doing s/"$//
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>Tim: it tricks the disabling check in dbset
18:51<Sacro>it is most annoying
18:52<Tim>I got the extension... And i only need to place a grf containing the grfid of arctic somewhere in my grflist?
18:52<frosch123>s/arctic/alpine/
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>not arctic, alpine
18:52<@petern>you can't supply parameters directly
18:52<@petern>(yet)
18:52<Sacro>petern: so revert the commit
18:52<Sacro>at least it worked before
18:52<@petern>you couldn't before either
18:53<Sacro>i used an alias before
18:53<Sacro>that worked
18:53<+glx>it should still work
18:53<Tim>And what is the alpine climate? ;) Thought the snowy one was called arctic
18:53<+glx>Tim: alpine grf
18:53<Sacro>also, is the end supposed to be in double quotes? cos it keeps removing them
18:53<@petern>quotes? what?
18:54<frosch123>Tim: http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/details.php?do=details&id=107
18:54<+glx>Tim: temperate industries and graphics with variable snow line
18:54<Sacro>musicdriver = extmidi:cmd=timidity -Od
18:54<Sacro>is that right?
18:54<@petern>no parameters
18:54-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1EFC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:54<@petern>parameters will not work
18:54<Sacro>so how do i pass parameters?
18:55<@petern>you can't yet
18:55<Sacro>you could before
18:55<@petern>unless you hardcode it
18:55<Sacro>using an alias
18:55-!-worldemar [~world@213.178.53.208] has quit [Quit: reboot]
18:55<@petern>no you couldn't
18:55<@petern>well
18:55<@petern>that's using an alias
18:55<@petern>you can still use an alias
18:55<Sacro>i'm sure my alias timidity=timidity -Od
18:55<Sacro>worked just fine
18:55<@petern>assuming you mean shell alias
18:55<Sacro>yep
18:55<@petern>although
18:56<@petern>timidity=timidity -Od seems stupid
18:56<Tim>Couldn't i just edit the DBSetXL-grf to be suited to arctic, or is that complicated?
18:56<Sacro>does it?
18:56<@petern>naming an alias the same as the command?
18:56<@petern>yes
18:56<Sacro>I don't see why
18:56<@petern>however
18:56<@petern>if that worked before, it'll work now
18:56<Sacro>alias ls = ls --color=auto is just fine
18:57<@petern>well, never mind :p
18:57<Sacro>my distro came with that one
18:57<@petern>musicdriver extmidi:cmd=timidity
18:57<@petern>er
18:57<Sacro>all i want is to get timidity using oss not alsa
18:57<@petern>musicdriver = extmidi:cmd=timidity
18:57<Yexo>What is the easiest way to add an array of structs (instead of a struct with arrays) to the savegame/config file as settings? see http://paste.openttd.org/178600
18:58<@petern>which is, in fact, the default
18:58<@petern>so musicdriver = extmidi would be fine
18:58<Sacro>hmm
18:58<Sacro>grr, timidity plays it just fine
18:58<Sacro>openttd doesn;t
18:58<@petern>it's called exactly the same. i didn't change that
18:59<Sacro>is it $@ for all arguements?
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19:00<Wolf01>'night
19:00<TrueBrain>ah, the world has entered
19:00<TrueBrain>we are now all safe
19:00-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host205-174-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
19:00<WhiteRhino>Night, Wolf.
19:01<Sacro>petern: i created a custom shell script to pass it
19:01<Sacro>and that doesn';t work
19:02<Sacro>ah, sorted it
19:02<Sacro>you changed it after 0.6.3
19:02<@petern>...
19:03<Sacro>you shoudl ask what version someone is running in future
19:03<TrueBrain>what a nasty thing to say :(
19:04*Sacro hugs TrueBrain
19:04*Sacro listens to the TTD music
19:06<@petern>well you were the one talking about it "working before" :p
19:06<Sacro>i'm sure it was
19:06<Sacro>but then
19:06<Sacro>that might have been using pulseaudio...
19:07<Yexo>Any dev that can help me with this? http://paste.openttd.org/178600
19:08<TrueBrain>Yexo: do it like NoAI
19:08<Yexo>I was afraid that was going to be the answer
19:08-!-ecke [~ecke@xbl.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:08<@petern>why have a MAX_REGIONS?
19:08<TrueBrain>not 'the'
19:08<TrueBrain>just mine
19:09<Yexo>petern: that'll be removed since I have to write custom save/load code anyway
19:10-!-cond_zenith [~blah@60-242-48-182.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd
19:10<TrueBrain>Yexo: or do: town_name1, disallow_industries1, disallowed_industries1, town_name2, disallow_industries2, ...
19:10<@petern>lol
19:10<Yexo>:p
19:10<@petern>TrueBrain has all the best ideas
19:11<cond_zenith>who do I talk to if I am having trouble logging into the wiki?
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>the admin of the internet
19:11<TrueBrain>only the easiest ones petern ;)
19:12<cond_zenith>lol Eddi|zuHause, I'll get right on that
19:12<cond_zenith>seriously though, I had to try about 10-15 times to login yesterday
19:13<cond_zenith>and today it just wont login
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>just talk about terrorism, bomb building and "raubmordkopieren", and at least mister Schäuble will get to you shortly
19:13<cond_zenith>and I'm sure I have the right password
19:13<TrueBrain>but you did succeed in the end?
19:13<cond_zenith>yesterday I succeeded, today I didn't
19:14<cond_zenith>maybe I need to try typoing my password, and I fluked it yesterday
19:14<cond_zenith>the other thing that doesn't help is it doesn't tell me if I got the captcha right
19:15-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcadf.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:15<Sacro>when openttd closes, timidity keeps playing
19:15<Sacro>DEVS D:
19:16<TrueBrain>Sacro: a feature!
19:16<@petern>yes
19:16<Sacro>that's a lie and you know it D:
19:16<@petern>this is because timidity is shit
19:16<Sacro>well yes
19:16<Sacro>but does OSS have midi support
19:16<TrueBrain>finish the sdl_mixer patch, and stop using MIDI sound
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19:16<@petern>sdl_mixer plays midi fine ;)
19:17-!-OtherRhino is now known as WhiteRhino
19:17<TrueBrain>even so, I would usggest to stop using MIDI :p
19:17<knl>:\
19:17<@petern>Sacro, run timidity an alsa sequencer mode, then call pmidi instead of timidity
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>if you have a proposal for FOSS compatible music...
19:18<Sacro>yes
19:18<Sacro>petern: pmidi eh
19:18<@petern>*in
19:18<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: WAV not good enough?
19:18<knl>wait, you can load your own MIDIs on ottd?
19:18<knl>other than the stock .gm files
19:18<@petern>also, are you still stuck with oss? haha
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>i mean the music, not the music format
19:18<cond_zenith>the gm files are midi files
19:18<@petern>knl: well you can replace the .gm files with ... other midi files...
19:19<Nite_Owl>Need to feed - later all
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19:19-!-Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-65-34-177-131.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon]
19:19<Aali>knl: you could also play whichever music you like in another stand-alone player!
19:19<knl>I can live with that
19:19<Aali>unbelievable, isn't it?
19:19<knl>yeah aali that's really amazing
19:19<Aali>:P
19:19-!-Splex [~splex@121.165.245.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:19<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I am sure we can find a few composers :)
19:19<cond_zenith>I've been playing OTTD music in another player
19:19<cond_zenith>cause timidity sucks
19:19<knl>hmm
19:20<knl>well I dunno about you, but all I had to do to get the music to work was to >install< timidity
19:20<knl>i didn't even have to reopen TTD, it started working right there >_>
19:20<cond_zenith>I had to do that and flip a coin every time I started ottd
19:20<knl>:\
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: but, please, make them not as depressed as the opengfx creators...
19:20<TrueBrain>hehehehe
19:20-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@161-18-80-78.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:20<TrueBrain>why you say that?
19:20<TrueBrain>(what is depressed about it?)
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>the dark colours
19:21<TrueBrain>ah
19:21<Sacro>petern: running timidity++ as a daemon faiols :(
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>the empty looking buildings
19:21<TrueBrain>make a 8bpp-bright blitter ;)
19:21<Sacro>ALSA lib seq_hw.c:457:(snd_seq_hw_open) open /dev/snd/seq failed: No such file or directory
19:21<Sacro>probably cos I don't have alsa
19:21<@petern>oh you and your fucking stupid oss only sound card
19:22<Sacro>yes
19:22<@petern>and you removing alsa support from your kernel?
19:22<+glx>seems you don't have hardware sequencer
19:22<cond_zenith>people still use OSS?
19:22<TrueBrain>does it still exist?
19:22<Sacro>oss is lovely
19:22<knl>also I can't get over the fact linux only allows a single software to deliver sound to the speakers
19:22<world>it is exist.
19:22<knl>maybe my PC is just old.
19:22<Sacro>and yes, 4.1 just came out
19:22<energetic>linux?
19:22<world>deprecated, but exist )
19:22<knl>er, ubuntu
19:22<cond_zenith>knl: depends on sound card and driver
19:22<Sacro>world: not deprecated
19:23<cond_zenith>and recent ALSA's set up software mixing by default
19:23<+glx>knl: you just need a "mixer"
19:23<world>Sacro: linux-2.6.28 says that
19:23<knl>mmhm
19:23<TrueBrain>pulseaudio feeds multiple sounds to my soundcard :)
19:23<+glx>and force all apps to use it
19:23<knl>but I don't really mind, I don't use ubuntu for pretty much anything
19:23<Sacro>world: it's not part of the kernel source but it is still in dev
19:23<Sacro>hmm, i should try kicking pulseaudio again
19:23-!-Splex [~splex@121.165.245.124] has joined #openttd
19:24<TrueBrain>pulseaudio doesn't like my pausing mplayer ..
19:24<cond_zenith>this fucking wiki is pissing me off
19:24<TrueBrain>I can't resume after that
19:24<world>by the way: what is "oss-only soundcard"?
19:24<TrueBrain>cond_zenith can't win from simple software :)
19:24-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-82-14-72-109.glfd.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
19:24<@petern>world, one without alsa support
19:25<world>petern: never mind that possible )
19:25<@petern>probably some creative piece of shit that makes great claims but turns out to actually just be a DAC and everything done in software
19:25<@petern>maybe ;)
19:26-!-world [~world@213.178.53.208] has quit [Quit: ooops! reboot]
19:26<cond_zenith>well I think I solved half the problem
19:27<cond_zenith>firefox was remembering the wrong password
19:27<knl>that's probably an issue, maybe
19:27<cond_zenith>what firefox was remembering should be the right one
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19:27<cond_zenith>but I guess I made a typo
19:27<cond_zenith>and duplicated that typo when I logged in yesterday
19:27<Aali>petern: actually, its the other way around, creative makes okay cards, their drivers suck balls
19:28<@petern>"okay" but nothing special
19:29<@petern>usually with hidden gotchas
19:29<@petern>like the emu10k's fixed 48000...
19:29<@petern>hehe, gravis did that :D
19:29<@petern>gravis ultrasound with 32 polyphony midi
19:30<@petern>except it ran at some stupidly low sample rate when using all the voices
19:30<@petern>and the sb 64 gold...
19:30<@petern>was 32 with the rest done in software :D
19:31<@petern>hmm, 00:30
19:31<@petern>goodnight
19:31<TrueBrain>night petern
19:31<TrueBrain>tnx for your monologe :)
19:31<@petern>you're welcome
19:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14949 /trunk/src/ (126 files in 17 dirs): -Cleanup: pointer coding style
19:32<TrueBrain>nice patch killer Rubidium :p
19:32<@petern>:D
19:32<@petern>anti-tron!
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19:33<@Rubidium>should we de-DeMorgan some stuff too?
19:33<@Rubidium>;)
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19:37<cond_zenith>well that's embarrasing
19:37<cond_zenith>turns out my password was blank
19:38<cond_zenith>why does the wiki even allow that
19:39<@petern>just to make you come on irc and embarrass yourself
19:39-!-cond_zenith is now known as ConditionalZenith
19:40<knl>and then post it on bash.org!
19:40<@petern>oh, yeah, nini
19:41<Sacro>sigh, stupid oss
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19:54<ConditionalZenith>do signals still need to be 2 way for a train to pick the free one?
19:54<Aali>no
19:55<Aali>if they are two-way, a train will NEVER pick the red one, which may be useful (and may also be bad) but is a bit of a hack
19:56<Aali>in short, build one-ways unless you know you need a two-way
19:56<ConditionalZenith>I just remember in the past, if they were one way, they would always pick the closest
19:56<Aali>its not like that anymore
19:56<Aali>pathfinders are much smarter
19:56<ConditionalZenith>yes, it's come a long way since the origianal
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20:01<goodger>the original pathfinder didn't seem to bother finding a path, but instead just drove in the general direction of the target
20:02<Aali>thats how my "pathfinder" works when I'm going somewhere I've never been before :P
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20:06<Eddi|zuHause><Aali> if they are two-way, a train will NEVER pick the red one, which may be useful (and may also be bad) but is a bit of a hack <- there is a setting to turn that off...
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>it should be default off, imho...
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>but mo is too h, i suppose...
20:07<ConditionalZenith>in which case should a train pick a red 2 way signal?
20:07<Aali>if the red two-way signal leads to a better path :)
20:07<ConditionalZenith>unless we make the pathfinder start looking at which way a train is going
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20:29<Eddi|zuHause>i found that treating signals as dead end generally only leads to lost trains
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21:27<@Belugas>!seen someone
21:27<@Belugas>@seen someone
21:27<@DorpsGek>Belugas: someone was last seen in #openttd 50 weeks, 0 days, 7 hours, 35 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: * Someone here is gay
21:27<@Belugas>hahaha!!!!
21:28<ConditionalZenith>how will we get someone to do all our stuff if he wont come on IRC
21:29<goodger>ConditionalZenith: go to his house and poke him?
21:29<ConditionalZenith>I don't know where he lives :(
21:30<goodger>yell "Someone! help!" and follow the first person who comes running toward you
21:31*Belugas runs away from the hail
21:32<Yexo>Belugas: about FS#2520, I think coolerkry wants to set the start date for new games to a specific date instead of only to a year. Your close messages seems to indicate you understood him differently
21:34<Yexo>anway, I need sleep! good night all
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21:37<@Belugas>well... one day, people should really learn to express themselves more clearly
21:37<@Belugas>cannot GUESS what they want all the time
21:38<goodger>Belugas: actually, in english, you are expected to. sentences mean more than the sum of their parts and sometimes are completely unrelated to their parts, it's maddening
21:39<@Belugas>shall we turn bugs.openttd.org to french only ?
21:39<@Belugas>heheh
21:39<goodger>that might be amusing
21:40<ConditionalZenith>until you get people who just run their bug reports through google translate
21:41<Eddi|zuHause>in german, sentences mean exactly what they say, but you need at least a push down automaton to parse them, and when you translate them to english, they end up as three separate sentences
21:41<goodger>*nod*
21:41<goodger>actually google translate is shockingly capable nowadays
21:41<goodger>it even correctly translated "superlative" into russian
21:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, you notice with my sentences, they would never be as long as this if i were native english speaker
21:42<ConditionalZenith>I'm not sure
21:43<ConditionalZenith>I'm a native english speaker, and my sentences can get pretty long
21:43<goodger>sentences can be pages long
21:43<goodger>you just have to use a semicolon instead of a full stop
21:44<Eddi|zuHause>i used sentences of half a page in an essay in german class.
21:44<@Belugas>anyway, fs2520 should be meaningless, even if he expressed it better, saying stuff like"you should be able to indicate the exact date at which the game should start"
21:45<Aali>I can make infinitely long words and still be grammatically correct in my native language
21:45<Eddi|zuHause>gave me bonus points for grammar, but malus points for style...
21:45<@Belugas>like... who fucking care about the 13th or 15th of june 1935 to start it?
21:45<@Belugas>blaaaaaaa
21:45<ConditionalZenith>"malus points", I'm not quite sure that's right
21:46<goodger>ConditionalZenith: in latin, "bon" is the opposite of "mal"
21:46<Eddi|zuHause>the funny thing with german sentences is, you can not only attach them to one another, but also split a sentence, and embed another whole sentence in them. the meaning of the original sentence can be completely changed by the last word, which may be several pages futher :p
21:46<Aali>Belugas: and if you really want that, you could just start it in singleplayer, fast forward to that date and save it again
21:46<goodger>heh, joy
21:47<ConditionalZenith>in english, malus doesn't mean "negative" or "penalty", like your context suggests
21:47<ConditionalZenith>it can mean "evil", etc.
21:47<Eddi|zuHause>you occasionally end up with huge stacks of finite verb forms, which you need to close the sentence-brackets ;)
21:48<goodger>ConditionalZenith: it can mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean
21:48<Eddi|zuHause>ConditionalZenith: sure you don't mean "malicious"?
21:48<Eddi|zuHause>malus is the opposite of bonus, that is what i learned, and that is what i mean
21:48<goodger>*nod* malus is a genus of apples, it has no other defined meaning
21:49<goodger>it being the opposite of bonus would make absolute sense etymologically
21:50<Eddi|zuHause>"das wäre ja logisch, wo kämen wir denn da hin"
21:51<goodger>allerdings#
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21:53<ConditionalZenith>malicious can mean that too
21:53<ConditionalZenith>but that is generally put with an action, rather than a noun
21:53<goodger>ConditionalZenith: you're saying malicious is an adverb?
21:54<ConditionalZenith>I think technically it is an adjective, it is just mostly used as an adverb
21:54<goodger>er... no, it is an adjective
21:55<goodger>the adverb form is "maliciously"
21:55<ConditionalZenith>and malus is hardly used at all
21:55<ConditionalZenith>you are right
21:55<goodger>I know I am
21:55<ConditionalZenith>I was meaning in common usage, one would usually apply malicious only to an action
21:56<ConditionalZenith>as in "that action was malicious"
21:56<ConditionalZenith>and typically one wouldn't say "that person is malicious"
21:56<ConditionalZenith>even though it is probably technically correct
21:57<ConditionalZenith>anyway, I'm no linguist, and it's probably showing
21:58<goodger>I've said that before
21:58<goodger>but I'm trolling... sorry
21:58*goodger resumes writing
21:59<ConditionalZenith>your trolling is more subtle than I am used to
21:59<Eddi|zuHause>http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idThread=205106&idForum=1&lp=ende&lang=de <- i think i am not the only person having a problem properly translating "malus" into a language that has so many latin roots...
22:00<goodger>heh, ludicrous situation
22:00<goodger>the top three quarters of english are latin
22:00<goodger>in fact, the word "quarter" is latin
22:00<goodger>or latinate, at least
22:01<ConditionalZenith>I thought most european languages had many words largely rooted in latin
22:02-!-TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@port432.ds1-od.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:02<Eddi|zuHause>english and german are fundamentally different in these aspects
22:02<Eddi|zuHause>because england was konquered and developed by the romans, while the germans defeated them and drove them out of their territory
22:03<ConditionalZenith>konquered should be conquered
22:03<ConditionalZenith>more english craziness
22:03<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i noticed ;)
22:03<goodger>ConditionalZenith: french, spanish, catalan, italian and portugese are all latinate; german, norwegian, swedish and dutch are germanic. english is germanic by grammar and common words, and latinate by complex words
22:04<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, latin was only used by the highly edjucated people, for example clerics
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22:04<goodger>the same in england, but french merged into the common tongue around 1200
22:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r14950 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: MSVC projects and source list update
22:05<goodger>we have three words for the same thing: "royal", "regnant" and "kingly" --- french, latin, germanic respectively
22:05<goodger>it's a sordid mess in theory, but it has produced a lovely rich language
22:05<Eddi|zuHause>the basic people spoke their germanic language ("theodisce" ~> "deutsch" meaning "spoken by the people")
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22:06<Eddi|zuHause>it has traded a rich grammar for a rich vocabulary
22:06<goodger>ah, that's where deutsch comes from. I always wondered why germany's name is different in all languages --- I suppose "allemand" is french for the same thing?
22:07<Eddi|zuHause>no, "allemand" in french comes from a germanic tribe "Allemannen", which resided in the south west of modern germany
22:07<goodger>it doesn't need a rich grammar, it has an incomprehensible system of auxiliaries and idiom \o/
22:07<goodger>ah, "all men"?
22:07<goodger>goodo
22:07<Eddi|zuHause>not sure about that deduction ;)
22:07<goodger>that just leaves the issue of the word "germany"
22:07<Eddi|zuHause>that's of latin roots
22:07<goodger>which as far as I can tell was plucked from the air by the English in the late 19th century
22:08<Eddi|zuHause>they called the land they were trying to conquer "germania"
22:08<goodger>ah
22:08<Eddi|zuHause>until they were driven out of there at 9 A.D.
22:09<@Belugas>ho... shit...
22:09<goodger>9 AD? sounds a bit specific?
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>in the so called "battle of teutoburg forest" or "varus battle"
22:09<goodger>do you mean C9 AD?
22:09<goodger>oh, 9 AD
22:09<goodger>goodo
22:09<goodger>the roman empire amuses me because the US has clearly not learned from the story of its collapse
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>9 A.D., as in the year 9 after christ's supposed birth
22:10-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-82-14-72-109.glfd.adsl.virgin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:10<goodger>thought you meant the ninth century until you specified a battle
22:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's one of the few battles that were called after the losing side
22:10<goodger>I really should sit down and read up on history. my understanding even of 1970s britain is pretty appalling
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>it's one of THE most influential turning points in europe's history
22:12*goodger dutifully looks it up here and now
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>there's a saying in germany
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>"what happend in the year 59 A.D.?"
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>"the 50th anniversary of the battle of teutoburg forest"
22:13<goodger>heh
22:14<goodger>I feel weird talking to foreigners because my country has been politically stable since the 1500s. it's something of a unique case
22:15<goodger>germany has not even been stable since I was born :S
22:15<Eddi|zuHause>that was after you were invaded 6 times ;)
22:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r14951 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Revert: partly what has been done on r14950. That would teach me to update repos before
22:15<ConditionalZenith>My country just has not much history
22:15<ConditionalZenith>(Australia that is)
22:15<goodger>ConditionalZenith: indeed :P
22:16<goodger>"if we dumped a load of convicts on an island and left them to it for 200 years, what would they say to us on our return?" "g'day."
22:16<Sacro>about as much history as strangeways
22:16<ConditionalZenith>well there were a lot of non-convicts who came too
22:16<goodger>yeah, I know, it's a joke :P
22:17<ConditionalZenith>and most of the convicts had only committed minor crimes
22:17<ConditionalZenith>and personally, I don't say g'day
22:17<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: incidentally, the inherent instability of germany can be traced back to the outcome of the battle in 9 A.D. ;)
22:17<Sacro>goodger: just don't go to brisbane
22:18<goodger>the worrying thing is that for 100 years, the US was doing rather better than the UK, despite being founded by a lot of religious nut-jobs we had effectively deported; and now australia is doing _much_ better than us, despite being founded by a lot of convicts that we had officially deported
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>(several times removed, of course)
22:18<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: indeed
22:18<ConditionalZenith>how are you defining "better"?
22:19<goodger>ConditionalZenith: well, the US was a beacon of freedom and egalitarianism (unlike the UK even now), and (again unlike the UK) australia does not have record-breaking budget deficits and a recession
22:19<ConditionalZenith>ahh, well we don't yet
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>the sad thing is, the USA started to perform "better" once germany started to evict... people...
22:20<ConditionalZenith>wait a bit until the US gives us a recession
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like 2 months ago?
22:20<ConditionalZenith>yeah, it will take time to hit us badly tohugh
22:21<goodger>ConditionalZenith: I am informed that the australian dollar has collapsed along with the iron ore export market, but that unemployment is not skyrocketing due to the use of a large budget surplus to fund a civil engineering programme that will shortly create internal demand for the same iron ore
22:21<ConditionalZenith>well I haven't followed things that closely
22:21<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: "people"? are we talking about 1946?
22:21<ConditionalZenith>but that sounds about right
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: you seriously need to learn history...
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>1933-1945, nazi-reigned germany
22:22<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: you said worryingly. I know a number of germans were naturalised into the US in the years after the war ended
22:22<ConditionalZenith>1945 or 1944?
22:23<ConditionalZenith>I thought the allies occupied Germany in 1944
22:24<Eddi|zuHause>they hardly managed to set foot on continental europe in 1944
22:24<goodger>ergo, if those germans included former nazis, who might be assigned the status of "people" including the quotes rather than people, then one might think it a sad thing that they improved the situation in the US
22:24<goodger>do you mean the 19th-century US immigration from europe?
22:25<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean the massively increased amount of "non-aric" people who were fleeing from suppression and imprisonment, potentially death
22:25<goodger>ConditionalZenith: comparatively, the UK is almost entirely dependent upon its banking sector, which is of course collapsing due to the subprime mortgage cock-up, and its retail sector, which is collapsing because it requires funds from the financial sector. we have barely any manufacturing industry left. to top it off, we have massive budget deficits, caused by a chancellor who for ten years thought he could spend more and
22:25<goodger>tax less, but conceal it by awarding contracts to private companies
22:26<Sacro>In Windows Internet Explorer 7, a Web site cannot set a cookie if the following conditions are true:
22:26<goodger>...ah. I see :S
22:26<Sacro>* The Domain attribute is in uppercase characters. * The Domain attribute has an odd number of characters.
22:26<ConditionalZenith>"In Windows" well there's your problem :P
22:26<goodger>Sacro: send the complete text of what you're reading to the Daily WTF
22:28<goodger>the subject of 1933-1945 germany makes me squirm. I constructed a few political ideas that I later realised were implemented by the nazis, and felt rather sick at having thought they were good
22:29<@Belugas>hahahaha!!!! "I take it upon myself to" <----- lovely!!
22:29<goodger>Belugas: what?!
22:29-!-roboboy [7248ca68@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
22:29<Eddi|zuHause>several "concepts" that were implemented under the nazi reign are still valid
22:30<+glx>like ICBM
22:30<Eddi|zuHause>for example that the government collects taxes for the churches
22:30<Eddi|zuHause>or the "Autobahn" system that they used to reduce unemployment
22:30<goodger>yes, they were good ideas
22:30<goodger>I refer to the practise of shooting disabled people
22:31<goodger>or, if The Pianist is anything to go by, throwing them off balconies
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22:31<Eddi|zuHause>that is a less common practice, nowadays :p
22:31<goodger>yes
22:32-!-TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@port432.ds1-od.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:32<ConditionalZenith>goodger: Belugas: what?! <--http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=38343&start=20
22:32<Sacro>shame really
22:32<Sacro>it's kind of stopping evolution
22:32<joachim>"04:09 < goodger> we have three words for the same thing: "royal", "regnant" and "kingly"
22:32<joachim>"
22:32<goodger>yes, that's what I thought --- could we accelerate the evolutionary process by allowing people to die where they would die in the wild?
22:33<thingwath>No. :-)
22:33<goodger>no, I later concluded, we must not
22:33<joachim>so do we (.no), not special
22:34<goodger>ConditionalZenith: heheh
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22:35<goodger>my current ethical dilemma is, is it ethical to kill a potential human because they will be born with cystic fibrosis or the "breast cancer gene" or Down's syndrome? currently I think "yes" for nonviable foetuses
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22:36<goodger>the difficulty lies in determining when something stops being an organism and starts being a human
22:36<joachim>did you consider any human will probably contribute in earth's destruction?
22:37<Tefad>holy crap is this #openttd or #crazyethics
22:37<joachim>goodger: what? is a human not an organism?
22:37<Tefad>humans have sentience
22:37<thingwath>umm, being human and not organism is not very easy
22:38<Tefad>but yes that is an ambiguous statement
22:38<goodger>I mean an organism as in, a life-form but not a person
22:38<Tefad>sadly organism has no exceptions
22:38<goodger>when does a fertilised egg turn into a person?
22:38<Tefad>i claim sentience
22:38<Tefad>but others disagree.
22:38<joachim>goodger: what is your earliest memory?
22:39<goodger>sentience appears only at age three-ish
22:39<Tefad>i think i remember being two
22:39<Tefad>like five memories or something
22:40<goodger>joachim: my third birthday party, only brief glimpses though. earliest memory I have of having an opinion on something specific is when I was four
22:40<goodger>oh, I remember moving house aged three, as well
22:40<Tefad>i remember killing a hamster when i was 3 or so
22:40<joachim>ok. you started being a person about three then, should be okay to kill you until that
22:40<goodger>I find that morally unacceptable
22:40<thingwath>I have no real memories about anything before ten years :) just random fragments
22:40<Tefad>i didn't know about suffocation and air-tight containers...
22:40<goodger>dunno why
22:41<Tefad>ten?
22:41<goodger>Tefad: ah. I'll bet you didn't know about death either
22:41<Eddi|zuHause>you can have centuries worth of discussions on this topic
22:41<joachim>well, i think the transition you're asking for happens well after birth, not before
22:41<Tefad>goodger: not really : D
22:41<Tefad>i think i was more along the lines of "aw i broke it"
22:41<Tefad>but i knew my mother would be pissed so i hid it from her
22:42<goodger>:S
22:42<Eddi|zuHause>the catholic church thinks even "potential humans" (as in sperms) should be cared for the same way as humans
22:42<Tefad>also at age 7 i knew how certain things worked better than how my mother did
22:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they are called "computer" :p
22:43<goodger>I would be profoundly disgusted if someone proposed killing babies aged two because they had a hereditary disease. I think we have to go on the date when the organism can survive outside its mother
22:43<Tefad>goodger: homeostasis it is.
22:43<goodger>yeah, that'll do
22:43<goodger>Tefad: I remember initially not being able to fathom reading and then suddenly finding it pathetically easy
22:43<Eddi|zuHause>whatever point you chose, there are unlimited amount of people who will argue against you
22:44<joachim>yeah, it's pointless
22:44<Tefad>Eddi|zuHause: indeed. i don't find it a topic to have a firm opinion in
22:44<thingwath>they are all going to die anyway, so why should I care...
22:44<joachim>we need to focus on defending against AI
22:44<Tefad>more of a consensus thing.
22:44<goodger>and also the twenty-four-hour clock; I couldn't understand that at all for ages, and then, shortly afterward, I didn't know about analogue clocks
22:44-!-energetic [~opera@ip82-139-119-221.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:44<ConditionalZenith>viability outside the womb depends on the level of medical technology available
22:44<Tefad>ConditionalZenith: zero medical technology permitted.
22:44<goodger>ConditionalZenith: shall we say an absence of medical technology?
22:44<joachim>shall we not?
22:44<Tefad>that isn't homeostasis if machines are involved.
22:45<ConditionalZenith>well there are premature births, which would have resulted in the baby's death
22:45<Eddi|zuHause>let's head back to the stone ages, where child death rate was >70%
22:45<Tefad>yup.
22:45<Tefad>Eddi|zuHause: sounds like a plan
22:45<thingwath>Tefad: then expect like 1/5 of losses, at least
22:45<Eddi|zuHause>and often dragged the mother with them
22:45<Tefad>would keep stupid people from having sex
22:45<thingwath>maybe even 1/3
22:46<Tefad>if they know it could end in death or great emotional discomfort
22:46<goodger>wait, wait, we're not talking about withholding medical treatment
22:46<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that idea worked back then, either :p
22:46<goodger>we're talking about the age at which a foetus has human rights
22:46<goodger>I agree with "homoeostasis"
22:47<thingwath>18 or 21, depending on country where you are ;)
22:47<joachim>you are assuming a philosophy where humans have rights
22:47<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: sure, if you argue about withholding genetic treatment, you may as well argue about medical treatment
22:47<goodger>I'm not talking about withholding genetic treatment at all
22:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you are doing "genetic conditioning" of a population
22:48<goodger>I'm talking about the age at which a human foetus goes from being something that can be discarded because it's broken to being a human being that you must not murder
22:48<goodger>which is the problem with genetic screening
22:49<goodger>if you detect that a foetus has Down's syndrome, should you abort it? what should be the maximum age beyond which you must _not_ abort it?
22:49<goodger>etc.
22:50<Eddi|zuHause>you can also argue the same way the other way around, when does someone stop to have the right of maintaining his "alive" status (as in aided deaths in hospitals)
22:50<joachim>or should there be a maximum age...
22:50<Eddi|zuHause>when do you judge "higher values" over something that the person in question might object to, if it had the chance?
22:50<goodger>my cold clinical mind tells me to abort it unless it is capable of homeostasis, because its quality of life will be so poor, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to kill a living thing
22:51<ConditionalZenith>joachim: age isn't the sole determiner of quality of life
22:51<joachim>how do you know it's quality of life will be "so poor"?
22:51<Eddi|zuHause>or when do you let the next-of-kin decide?
22:51<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: when the patient is incapable of making a rational decision
22:51<joachim>many people live great lives with down's
22:51<goodger>yes, but their lives would be infinitely improved without it
22:52<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: exactly, so then turn that around again, when does a person start to be able to do "rational" decisions?
22:52<ConditionalZenith>goodger: that argument can be made with almost any condition
22:52<Eddi|zuHause>3? 7? 16? 21?
22:52<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: a foetus can't make any form of decision, you have to decide for it
22:52<goodger>oh...
22:52<goodger>I'd say you should analyse the individual's psyche
22:53<goodger>ConditionalZenith: I know, I'm using Down's as an example
22:53<Eddi|zuHause>so it would be ok to kill a 3 year old that is diagnosed with down's syndrome, because it cannot make a rational decision?
22:53<ConditionalZenith>I just don't see where you are going. Is that an argument for aborting?
22:53<Eddi|zuHause>simply by their parent's decision?
22:54<goodger>if I conceived a child [not bloody likely] and the screening process revealed cystic fibrosis, as a better example, I would find myself wanting to abort it because such a child does not deserve such suffering throughout its shortened life, but not wanting to kill the baby because it deserves life anyway
22:54<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: no, that baby has already been born --- and no, I do not know why that makes a difference to me
22:54<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what that is...
22:55<Eddi|zuHause>does that have a german name?
22:55<thingwath>do you really want to care about child with Down syndrome, if you don't really have to?
22:55<ConditionalZenith>do you want to care for any children if you don'
22:55<ConditionalZenith>t have to?
22:55<joachim>Eddi|zuHause: 04:09 < goodger> we have three words for the same thing: "royal", "regnant" and "kingly"
22:55<thingwath>No :-)
22:55<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: Mukoviszidose
22:55<Eddi|zuHause>it's also an interesting fact... most medical terms have a perfectly simple german variant, but the english use latin-based terminology
22:55<ConditionalZenith>damn my keyboard
22:55<joachim>wops
22:55<joachim>Mukoviszidose
22:56<goodger>thingwath: I don't consider the parents wanting to care for the child a valid point. to say "abort, I don't want to have to deal with a Down's child" would be incredibly weak and selfish
22:57<joachim>have you met anyone with down's?
22:58<goodger>joachim: yes. I can't imagine he was aware of having it. it was decidedly... well, pitiful is too harsh, but I can't think of a better word
22:59<goodger>I am aware of sounding like a monster while saying that sentence
22:59<joachim>did he seem to suffer?
22:59<goodger>not explicitly, but his quality of life was certainly reduced
23:00<joachim>i know about a bunct of people "suffering" from down's, and they live richer lives than many of us normals
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23:00<thingwath>goodger: Is it selfish to expect something in return when having a child, which is... very expensive and hard work?
23:00<goodger>down's is a very bad example, sorry
23:00<joachim>might be our social system, but i don't think down's is a very good example
23:00<goodger>thingwath: "you touch it, you bought it!"
23:00<OtherRhino>You could think that a child with Down's syndrom doesn't have the same Quality of Life scope that someone without it has. Maybe for him, he's at the high end of his scope.
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23:01<goodger>OtherRhino: I consider absolute values more important
23:01<OtherRhino>...dang.
23:01<joachim>absolute values?
23:01-!-OtherRhino is now known as WhiteRhino
23:01<goodger>joachim: of quality of life. I know it's not measurable
23:01-!-elmex_ [~elmex@e180068116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
23:01<joachim>but it's absolute?
23:02<goodger>in a sense
23:02<WhiteRhino>If a person is born blind, they know nothing but being blind; their scope of Quality of Life involves being blind.
23:02<goodger>to say that a man's quality of life is good compared to his expectation does not negate the fact that his quality of life is poor compared to others'
23:02<joachim>good luck with that
23:03<joachim>i'm pulling out
23:03<thingwath>goodger: But I think we assume, that I know this before the birth.
23:04<WhiteRhino>I dunno. I think that if someone doesn't know more than what they were born with, then you can wish they had been born "normal" but feeling sorry for them doesn't fit as well. The person could be having a happier life than most "normal" people.
23:04<goodger>well, if they are, then fine
23:04<thingwath>Most likely he has. But what about the parents?
23:05<joachim>what about people who experience life on a higher level than you, goodger
23:05<goodger>if he is not happier with the condition, as in the vast majority of heritable diseases, then it would be better for him not to have it; and at that point, you must compare having the condition to not living, in terms of suffering
23:05<Eddi|zuHause>"relative" to which "authority" do you define "absolute" "values"?
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23:05<goodger>joachim: what about them?
23:05<joachim>should they abort you?
23:06<goodger>they didn't need to, I very nearly aborted myself
23:06<joachim>you won't reach their absolute value of "true life"
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23:07<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: I think you have to define it as an index
23:07<goodger>joachim: if I am suffering with the condition I hypothetically have, then it may well have been more humane to abort me rather than allow me to live and suffer
23:08<joachim>that is true
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23:08<joachim>but then, most people will suffer during many and long periods of their lives, it's part of it
23:09<goodger>I would certainly be happier without asperger syndrome, but not to the extent that I would rather not exist than have it
23:09<joachim>well, humans aren't objective when it comes to not existing
23:09<joachim>;)
23:09<goodger>joachim: basic principle of sentience: sentient beings shun suffering. if you think suffering is part of the human experience you're correct, but if you think it should not be minimised, then that would class you as some sort of sadist
23:10<goodger>yeah, I prefer to exist
23:10<thingwath>Hm, I'm not sure.
23:10<OtherRhino>What about the medical saying "If it hurts, that means it's working?" =P
23:11<thingwath>It is not so great to be.
23:12<joachim>infinitely greater and worse than not to be.
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23:12<goodger>yeah
23:12<goodger>unfortunately if I had been tested positive for some heritable condition, my parents could not ask me [as I am now] whether I would rather not exist, nineteen years ago, because I [as I am now] didn't exist nineteen years ago. they would have had to make the decision themselves
23:13<goodger>^ the preceding sentence contained clauses of extreme temporal complexity and should not have been read by young children
23:15<goodger>hmm
23:15<goodger>trying to explain that sentence causes me to think of myself as an emergent property of a neural network. this is getting rather metaphysical
23:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, like the kind of young children that sits up at 5AM and reads IRC channels of supposed train simulation games
23:16<thingwath>5AM CET
23:16<WhiteRhino>Supposed? Now you're saying TTD may or may not exist? >.>
23:16<goodger>heh
23:16<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: a joke. "the following program contains scenes of extreme violence and should not be viewed by young children" is used on US television
23:17<WhiteRhino>Day is night and night is day. The rain is falling up!
23:17<joachim>up?
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>in germany they only use phrases like "Diese Sendung ist für Zuschauer unter 16 Jahren nicht geeignet"
23:18<goodger>we just have a watershed hour
23:19<goodger>before 9pm, very limited content restrictions
23:19<goodger>after 9pm, anything goes
23:19<WhiteRhino>Meanwhile over here I can still watch stuff like Curious George at like 2am.
23:20<goodger>WhiteRhino: I didn't know the president had his own television programme
23:20<Eddi|zuHause>it's more differentiated here, i think, something like: at 20:00, 12 years, 22:00, 16 years, 23:00, 18 years
23:20<WhiteRhino>That's just bad. =P
23:20<goodger>WhiteRhino: you must admit, there are definite similarities
23:20<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: makes limited sense ^_^
23:21<WhiteRhino>Just because the President of the last eight years looks vaguely simian.. >.>
23:21<goodger>ha! "vaguely" indeed...
23:21<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: means if you show 24 at 22:00, you have to cut more scenes than if you show it 23:00
23:21<Eddi|zuHause>and before that, you shouldn't even bother
23:22<goodger>you have to cut scenes even at the 18 rating? :S
23:22<WhiteRhino>You can say "asscrack" and "bitch" on TV, but one radio station I know of will cancel out the word "porno" in a particular song. *shrug*
23:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure if they "have to", but it is very common
23:22<WhiteRhino>And those words are said at 7pm weekdays.
23:23<Eddi|zuHause>usually scenes of extreme violence...
23:23<joachim>Eddi|zuHause: in germany?
23:23<goodger>the problem with having the 18 rating at 2300 is that, by the time a film ends that starts at 2300 for ratings purposes, it will be 0040, which is too late for most >18-year-olds to go to bed
23:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they cut like 10 minutes off each dexter episode...
23:23<Eddi|zuHause>which aired after 23:00
23:24<goodger>WhiteRhino: the BBC has subtly introduced the word "bitch" into EastEnders, which is watched by people aged 8 and up, and is broadcast at 7:30
23:24<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: some scheduling thing, surely?
23:24<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't watch it, because the dubbing is so extremely bad
23:24<goodger>heh
23:24<WhiteRhino>Criminy.
23:24<goodger>dubbing is always extremely bad.
23:24<Eddi|zuHause>not only scheduling
23:24<joachim>goodger: true
23:24<goodger>subtitles FTW
23:24<thingwath>dubbing is sometimes good :)
23:25<goodger>trouble is, subtitles are not accessible to the blind
23:25<joachim>only if you can choose audio channels
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes, dubbing is potentially degrading quality, but even then, dexter was at the extreme lower end of the scale
23:25<goodger>so you kind of have to dub it _and_ provide subtitles in order to make it accessible
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>it was done by the second cheapest dubbing company in germany
23:25<goodger>heh
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23:25<Eddi|zuHause>and dubbing is a big market in germany
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>so it's not like there are only 2 companies
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>shows that are known to have exceptionally good dubs are "House" and "Scrubs"
23:26<goodger>hm
23:27<goodger>:O
23:27<goodger>you're missing out on the legendary voice of hugh laurie!
23:27<joachim>i think the last time there were complaints about norwegian tv were when the public state broadcasting showed porn
23:27<Eddi|zuHause>actually, i have not seen a single episode of house
23:27<joachim>other than that, anything goes :)
23:27<goodger>you know, his american accent is so good that most of the production staff never realised he was English
23:27<goodger>including the director and casting agent
23:28<Eddi|zuHause>there is a law in germany against broadcasting pornography
23:28<goodger>(he uses the accent all the time on the set, to stay in character)
23:28<WhiteRhino>I know I didn't 'til I saw him on something like Conan O'brien.
23:28<goodger>yes, in england too
23:28<Eddi|zuHause>which lead to the invention of the "soft porno"
23:28<goodger>WhiteRhino: you fail
23:29<goodger>WhiteRhino: I suggest you investigate "Blackadder the Third"
23:29<goodger>it involves hugh laurie in his natural habitat: an english accent and a silly costume
23:29<goodger>and it's genius
23:29<Eddi|zuHause>i associate "blackadder" with something mr. bean-ish
23:29<joachim>and then he says his limp is fake
23:29<joachim>and that he's not really a doctor
23:29<joachim>right!
23:30<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: it has the same actor, but with spoken dialogue :P it's very good indeed, very biting satire
23:30<Eddi|zuHause>it aired a long time ago, here...
23:30-!-ConditionalZenith [~blah@60-242-48-182.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:31<goodger>here also, it was made in the 80s
23:31<goodger>we repeat it every so often ^_^
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 10 00:00:58 2009