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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-01-22

---Logopened Thu Jan 22 00:00:20 2009
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01:41<Guest1543:#openttd>morning ttdler
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01:47<dihedral:#openttd>oi
01:47<Ammler:#openttd>heya dihedral
01:51<dihedral:#openttd>hello Ammler :-)
01:51<dihedral:#openttd>have not seen you in a while
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02:14<dihedral:#openttd>src/3rdparty/ the external for squirrel is set to svn://svn.openttd.org
02:14<dihedral:#openttd>means that if someone is 'required' to access via http, they cannot fetch squirrel via the externals
02:15<dihedral:#openttd>however, if i am not mistaken, it is possible to set a path inside the repository
02:15<dihedral:#openttd>that way it keeps the protocol already set
02:24<dihedral:#openttd>src/smallmap_gui.cpp:257: warning: '_smallmap_vegetation_andor' defined but not used
02:24<dihedral:#openttd>Yexo: ^
02:25<dihedral:#openttd>15204
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02:27<+Yexo:#openttd>dihedral: what has that warning to do with me?
02:29<dihedral:#openttd>i just thought it had, because you were doing all the map stuff recently :-P
02:30<+Yexo:#openttd>I didn't touch the smallmap gui at all (which let r15201), but otherwise I haven't touched that code
02:31<dihedral:#openttd>ah, ok
02:31<dihedral:#openttd>sorry then
02:31<+Yexo:#openttd>now I'm lookint at that code it seems to be _very_ old
02:31<dihedral:#openttd>ah :-P
02:31<+Yexo:#openttd>are you sure that warning wasn't in earlier versions?
02:31<dihedral:#openttd>yes
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02:33<dihedral:#openttd>odd
02:33<dihedral:#openttd>well - never mind ;-)
02:34<+Yexo:#openttd>it was already unused in r10000
02:34<+Yexo:#openttd>probably already since r1500 or even before
02:34<Celestar:#openttd>\o
02:35<Forked:#openttd>meep meep
02:35<dihedral:#openttd>_smallmap_vegetation_andor is not used anywhere in the code
02:35<Forked:#openttd>sirs and/or ma'ams
02:35<dihedral:#openttd>oi Forked
02:35<+Yexo:#openttd>I think it should've been used at line 453
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02:36<Forked:#openttd>I have a feeling I'll be playing quite alot of ottd this weekend :)
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02:36<dihedral:#openttd>perhaps Rubidium knows... :-P
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02:36<dihedral:#openttd>Forked: i will not, i have no time at all this weekend
02:36<dihedral:#openttd>unless late evening hours
02:36<dihedral:#openttd>and there i have other stuff to do
02:37<Forked:#openttd>I'm visiting my parents, there will be some downtime
02:42<+Yexo:#openttd>looks like _smallmap_vegetation_andor is unused since r1
02:44<dihedral:#openttd>lol
02:45<dihedral:#openttd>Yexo: that's pretty nasty :-P
02:45<+Yexo:#openttd>I wonder why your compiler started complaing now
02:46<dihedral:#openttd>i thought warnings were suppressed anyway :-P
03:06<dihedral:#openttd>[SRC] No such source-file: /Users/nathanael/Development/openttd.svn/src/video/cocoa/wnd_quickdraw.mm.[c|cpp|mm|rc] <- ???
03:13*dihedral:#openttd is gonna update his version of xcode
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03:21*dihedral:#openttd will update his xcode version
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03:29<Burgundavia:#openttd>ok, 32bpp is driving me nuts
03:30<Burgundavia:#openttd>how do I get it to recognize the graphics I have dropped in there? do I need to remove the old TTD graphics?
03:30<+Yexo:#openttd>did you enable the 32bpp blitter?
03:31<+Yexo:#openttd>and are you not trying to use the exrra-zoom graphics?
03:31<Burgundavia:#openttd>I am starting with the "-b 32bpp-optimized"
03:31<Burgundavia:#openttd>and I am not trying to use the extra zoom stuff
03:31<Burgundavia:#openttd>0.6.3, official deb on ubuntu
03:32<+Yexo:#openttd>where did you put the graphics?
03:32<Burgundavia:#openttd> /usr/share/games/openttd/data
03:32<Burgundavia:#openttd>same as the existing (and working) newgrfs
03:32<+Yexo:#openttd>should be ok
03:32<Gekz:#openttd>Burgundavia: enable debug
03:33<Gekz:#openttd>my brain says this would help
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03:36<Burgundavia:#openttd>dbg: [grf] [OPENTTDW.GRF:755] GraphicsNew: Replacing sprites 0 to 47 of Catenary graphics (type 0x05) at SpriteID 0x15B6
03:36<Burgundavia:#openttd> <-- is this the 32bpp stuff?
03:36<+Yexo:#openttd>don't think so
03:38<Burgundavia:#openttd>hmm, it appears as if it is working
03:38<Burgundavia:#openttd>it is only Ben's temperate pack that is not working
03:38<+Yexo:#openttd>where did you download that from?
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03:40<Burgundavia:#openttd>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/List_of_downloadable_32bpp_tars
03:40<Burgundavia:#openttd>where is that forum thread again?
03:41<+Yexo:#openttd>Ben's temperate pack works fine here
03:42<+Yexo:#openttd>at least the grass part
03:42<+Yexo:#openttd>rest I didn't check
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04:01<Burgundavia:#openttd>Yexo: thanks, it seems that it was working. Didn't realize jus how little of teh graphics have been replaced if you don;t have extra zoom
04:03<dihedral:#openttd>why on earth do they have to put xcode into a 999MB sized disc image?
04:03<dihedral:#openttd>it takes forever!!
04:10<@Rubidium:#openttd>dihedral: be happy it's only 999 MB; for MSVC you need way more
04:10<dihedral:#openttd>hehe
04:10<dihedral:#openttd>yes but that is MS for you
04:11<Sacro:#openttd>mmm, xcode is sexy
04:11<dihedral:#openttd>Rubidium: [SRC] No such source-file: /Users/nathanael/Development/openttd.svn/src/video/cocoa/wnd_quickdraw.mm.[c|cpp|mm|rc] <- you have a clue what that could be caused by?
04:11<dihedral:#openttd>it compiled a few times with no probs
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04:14<@Rubidium:#openttd>why would I know what makes OSX break?
04:14<@petern:#openttd>heh
04:14<dihedral:#openttd>:-P
04:14<dihedral:#openttd>good point
04:14<@Rubidium:#openttd>I just see it as one of the other things they intentionally break which Bjarni hasn't worked arund yet
04:14<@petern:#openttd>dihedral, you are on OS X then?
04:14<dihedral:#openttd>where is Bjarni :-P
04:14<dihedral:#openttd>yep
04:15<@petern:#openttd>so you could become our new port maintainer!
04:15<@petern:#openttd>Code 663 Windows Update encountered an unknown error.
04:15<@petern:#openttd>FUCK OFF
04:16<Sacro:#openttd>petern: calm down
04:16<@petern:#openttd>it's that bollocking VS2005 SP1 security update
04:16<Sacro:#openttd>dihedral: i'm getting a macbook so I can help with Mac dev
04:16<Sacro:#openttd>heh, 2005 is so last year
04:16<@petern:#openttd>the one i reinstalled vs2005 to install...
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>HAH!
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>i would love to help - but currently i dont think i have enough to do that petern ;-)
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>i.e. knowledge
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>or rather the lack there of
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>Rubidium: i did update the move patch to 15204 however, i still have to do the changes you once mentioned to me :-)
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>Sacro: i have a good old 12" G4 :-)
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>running Tiger
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>oh
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>i need to install some system updates......
04:18<dihedral:#openttd>thanks Sacro
04:19<Sacro:#openttd>dihedral: heh, this is running leopard
04:20<dihedral:#openttd>the new mac's are way too big
04:22<Sacro:#openttd>dihedral: macs
04:22<Sacro:#openttd>no apostophe
04:22<@petern:#openttd>dihedral, too old to learn new things?
04:23<dihedral:#openttd>nope
04:24<dihedral:#openttd>:-)
04:24<dihedral:#openttd>btw: you are using subversion 1.5 right?
04:24<dihedral:#openttd>could you use the new svn:externals syntax?
04:24<dihedral:#openttd>that way you can specify relative paths, without the protocol
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04:25<dihedral:#openttd>upside: if someone has to access via http and not svn, they will then still be able to fetch the external
04:25<dihedral:#openttd>rather than there being a timeout due to the port being blocked when wanting to access svn:// ....
04:26<@petern:#openttd>what about people using older versions?
04:26<@petern:#openttd>"sod them"? hehe
04:26<@petern:#openttd>Subversion command-line client, version 1.4.2.
04:26<@petern:#openttd>is what i'm using...
04:27<planetmaker:#openttd>[10:03] <dihedral> why on earth do they have to put xcode into a 999MB sized disc image? <--- lool, wtf!
04:31<dihedral:#openttd>petern: shoot - forgot those :P
04:31<jerker:#openttd>I added the Braided Junction to the wiki. Flame on! :-) http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Braided_Junction
04:31<dihedral:#openttd>petern: that also means that when you should commit a merge, you break mergetracking
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04:32<dihedral:#openttd>Traffic jams are unlikely since tracks split before they merge. ?
04:33<dihedral:#openttd>you wont have any deadlocks, but you will have pretty long queues
04:33<dihedral:#openttd>+ the bridge needs not to go up and down again
04:36<jerker:#openttd>dihedral: deadlocks are unlikely, i guess, should i write deadlocks instead?
04:37<dihedral:#openttd>i am just saying that it's a good junction if you have like 5 trains passing it every minute
04:38<jerker:#openttd>dihedral; if the bridge do not go up the tunnel have to move one tile to the east which will make the crossing two tile² larger for the south-east track to fit..
04:38<dihedral:#openttd>yes - just saw that with the bridge
04:38<jerker:#openttd>dihedral: it's optimized for compactness.
04:39<dihedral:#openttd>no - it's compact - it's not optimized :-P
04:39<jerker:#openttd>beats the compact 3-way B-M junction with 6 extra tile² usage vs 15 tile².
04:40<jerker:#openttd>dihedral: it IS optimized :) for a good balance between throughout/latency/compactness see the Transmogrified.
04:40<dihedral:#openttd>but what do you want from a junction?
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04:41<planetmaker:#openttd>he. Joining and splitting tracks formost ;)
04:42<@Rubidium:#openttd>dihedral: merge tracking's broken anyhow
04:42<dihedral:#openttd>also a junction i would never use jerker
04:42<dihedral:#openttd>Rubidium: well, in that case :-P
04:42<jerker:#openttd>dihedral: :) I like it, but i am very biased.
04:42<dihedral:#openttd>hehe
04:43<dihedral:#openttd>to me a junction has to handle a lot of traffic, unless i dont expect that amount of traffic
04:43<dihedral:#openttd>second is fitting into the landscape
04:43<jerker:#openttd>it sould actually be interesting with a few examples of priorities and other interesting stuff that I havn't dwelved into yet
04:44<dihedral:#openttd>those junctions dont leave room for prios
04:44<jerker:#openttd>No, i mean new/other junctions which are opotimzed for other things. like priorities, or whatever.
04:45<dihedral:#openttd>well, like i said - if you have 5 trains, and speed does not matter, then it's a possible pick
04:46<jerker:#openttd>And some good examples on how to make a high capacity mainline with either loops or two tracks in each direction.
04:46<dihedral:#openttd>junctions for high capacity are very well described at www.openttdcoop.org ;-)
04:47<jerker:#openttd>dihedral: Yes, some ideas from there could be of very good use.
04:47<dihedral:#openttd>those junctions can be pretty much crammed full with trains at any given time
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04:50<dihedral:#openttd>jerker: http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Image:SandboxGame35.png
04:51<jerker:#openttd>dihedral: yes i just looked at it. It will take foverever to build.
04:51<dihedral:#openttd>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Image:Psg102_bbh01.png
04:51<jerker:#openttd>..to build for me.
04:51<dihedral:#openttd>they do
04:51<dihedral:#openttd>and they are unique
04:55<jerker:#openttd>dihedral: things to optimize for; code size (tile² usage), speed (distance between turns), latency (signal distance), parallelism (capacity under load)
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04:57<dihedral:#openttd>?
04:57<dihedral:#openttd>your junctions?
04:57<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15205 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Revert (r7421, partial): Support for MaxTE solves problem in a better way
04:57<dihedral:#openttd>size, ok they are compact - yes!
04:58<dihedral:#openttd>distance between turn? not really! they are as compact as they can get, those turns will slow down trains like anything
04:58<planetmaker:#openttd>@ jerker http://www.openttdcoop.org/files/pm/patches/t-junction.png
04:59<planetmaker:#openttd>that junction has a speed limit of ~180 km/h for trains while yours has about 90km/h. - which will be more efficient?
04:59<jerker:#openttd>Belugas; the kind of orders I would like ABC{DEF|GHI}JKL could be implemented im many ways. Random conditional jumping is OK for me (if RANDOM > 50% the jump to order X) but a global counter for all busses could be ok
04:59<dihedral:#openttd>latency? 7 tiles between signals means you have a lot of space between trains
04:59<jerker:#openttd>planetmaker: No not mine, i mean in general, as a way of rating junctions...
04:59<dihedral:#openttd>cpacity under load? that junction will not bring 60 trains a minute!
04:59<planetmaker:#openttd>indeed
04:59<jerker:#openttd>dihedral: not mine stupid :)
05:00<jerker:#openttd>planetmaker: in general.
05:00<jerker:#openttd>dihedral: and sorry for saying stupid. my wrong
05:00<dihedral:#openttd>:-P
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05:01<planetmaker:#openttd>jerker: you say that size is the most important feature of junctions. To me a decently flowing network is more important. That's what gives me money.
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05:02<jerker:#openttd>planetmaker: I have never said that it is so i general. I have said that that particular junction is optimized for size. As I said there are several metrics for rating junction, obviously.
05:02<planetmaker:#openttd>yep.
05:02<planetmaker:#openttd>agreed
05:02<jerker:#openttd>dihedral: things to optimize for; code size (tile² usage), speed (distance between turns), latency (signal distance), parallelism (capacity under load) (IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER)
05:03<jerker:#openttd>planetmaker: more...?
05:03*petern:#openttd mumbles
05:03<jerker:#openttd>i do like the parallels between computer science and junctions. :)
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05:04<planetmaker:#openttd>jerker: readability
05:04<@petern:#openttd>signal spacing should be 2 * train length :p
05:04<planetmaker:#openttd>e.g. how easy it's to understand :). Or call it coding style :P
05:04<@Rubidium:#openttd>petern: so you're advocating half tile trains?
05:04<jerker:#openttd>planetmaker: yes, and easy to construct. Write once read many... :)
05:04<planetmaker:#openttd>important factor is also: trainlength which it is designed for.
05:05<jerker:#openttd>planetmaker; indeed
05:05<planetmaker:#openttd>the junction I posted is good for trains <~ 5 tiles. Above that it gets already less efficient
05:06<planetmaker:#openttd>as trains may block the other way while waiting for a free path. The limit for your compact junction is at <~2 tiles
05:06<jerker:#openttd>Belugas; actually writing the orders as a regualar expression whould be fine for me as well.
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05:08<planetmaker:#openttd>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2566/getfile/3839/worldgen_gui_r15201_v2.diff <-- I'd like some advice. what's a good place to put the first hunk in order to unduplicate that.
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05:10<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15206 /trunk/src/network/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#2567]: memory corruption due to not properly cleanup up the mess when cancelling a download
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05:11<thingwath:#openttd>it's so funny that openttd rail junctions always look like highway junctions -- and in fact they even work in a same way :)
05:12<blathijs:#openttd>win 27
05:12<blathijs:#openttd>w00ps
05:13<@Rubidium:#openttd>sorry blathijs, that version of windows in unknown to me
05:13<Tefad:#openttd>win42
05:13<blathijs:#openttd>Rubidium: I downloaded a unreleased preview version from the internets!
05:13<thingwath:#openttd>win 27, lose everything
05:13<blathijs:#openttd>But is broken! :-p
05:13<Tefad:#openttd>weird al wins
05:14<planetmaker:#openttd>better win 27 than loose 42 :P
05:14<@petern:#openttd>Rubidium, well, there is those small railcar things in ukrs and dbsetxl...
05:15<@petern:#openttd>*are
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06:39<@petern:#openttd>hmm
06:39<@petern:#openttd>i wonder what tonnes / 204 was meant to be :o
06:43<@petern:#openttd>500000*9.81*0.0005
06:43<@petern:#openttd>2452.5000
06:43<@petern:#openttd>500*1000/204
06:43<@petern:#openttd>2450
06:43<@petern:#openttd>oic
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07:54*dihedral:#openttd is installing xcode 2.5
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08:03<planetmaker:#openttd>dihedral: what's the advantages to 2.4?
08:03<dihedral:#openttd>i dont know - it's the newest i found for Tiger
08:03<planetmaker:#openttd>k. Just thought you might know :)
08:04<dihedral:#openttd>nope :-)
08:04<planetmaker:#openttd>I might check my version :) - and I *think* it's 2.4
08:04<dihedral:#openttd>perhaps a new version of gcc?
08:04<dihedral:#openttd>that'd be nice actually :-P
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08:51<@petern:#openttd>damn it, i still fail to see what these magic numbers are :/
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09:07<@Belugas:#openttd>coo-coo in here
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09:12<Timitry:#openttd>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/User:Timitry/3-Way-Junctions
09:12<Timitry:#openttd>For the junctionary... ;)
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09:16<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15207 /trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp: -Add: sorting to the content list.
09:22<@petern:#openttd>hmm
09:22<@petern:#openttd>ffs
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09:32<Sacro:#openttd>fuck me that ttdrussia economy patch is fecking sweet
09:34<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15208 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Remove some kind (undocumented, so who really knows) of original attempt to limit maximum tractive effort from 'realistic' acceleration.
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10:12<Sacro:#openttd>Can we please reword "Forbid trains and ships to make 90 degree turns"
10:12<Sacro:#openttd>it sounds horrible
10:12<Sacro:#openttd>'from making' is much nicer
10:13<dihedral:#openttd>sounds like dereck zoolander
10:13<dihedral:#openttd>he could not turn left :-D
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10:14<dihedral:#openttd>the dereck zoolander center for kids who can't read good, and want to do other things good too
10:14<@petern:#openttd>hmm
10:14<@petern:#openttd>guys
10:14<OwenS:#openttd>"Disallow trains & ships to make 90 degree turns"
10:14<@petern:#openttd>where should i put the 'choose base graphics' button?
10:14<dihedral:#openttd>grf window?
10:14<dihedral:#openttd>or game options
10:14<dihedral:#openttd>where you can specify the language
10:20<Sacro:#openttd>grrr
10:20<Sacro:#openttd>OwenS: no, that's not valid english
10:20<Sacro:#openttd>or at least it sounds horrible
10:20<Sacro:#openttd>also, where has the enable signal gui option gone
10:21<@petern:#openttd>i dislike the new gui :/
10:22<Sacro:#openttd>fuck it
10:22<Sacro:#openttd>editing the config is quicker
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10:22<@petern:#openttd>ding
10:22<@petern:#openttd>the console needs readline support
10:25<OwenS:#openttd>"Forbid trains and ships from making 90 degree turns" sounds even worse
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10:27<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd><jerker> I added the Braided Junction to the wiki. Flame on! :-) http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Braided_Junction <- i just read that as "braindead"
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10:29<dihedral:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause, a more suitable name for that thing if you ask me :-D
10:29<OwenS:#openttd>The entire junction section on the wiki contains junk :p
10:29<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i have no idea what "braided" means, even
10:30<dihedral:#openttd>geflochten
10:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>honestly, i have never heard that word before
10:30<dihedral:#openttd>really?
10:30<Sacro:#openttd>OwenS: really?
10:30<dihedral:#openttd>you never heard "braids"?
10:30<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>no.
10:30<dihedral:#openttd>wow
10:31<dihedral:#openttd>that's sad
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10:35<@petern:#openttd>compact but slow
10:36<@petern:#openttd>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Braid_StepBystep.jpg
10:36<OwenS:#openttd>Whats with all the slow juncitions in that list anyway?
10:36<@petern:#openttd>^ braiding
10:38<dihedral:#openttd>OwenS, it's a wiki! can not anybody delete pages? :-P
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10:39<@petern:#openttd>no
10:41<dihedral:#openttd>what a pitty
10:41<@petern:#openttd>you could remove content...
10:42<@petern:#openttd>i can remove pages
10:42<@petern:#openttd>but even then they can be restored, i believe
10:43<dihedral:#openttd>shame
10:43<@petern:#openttd>why?
10:43<dihedral:#openttd>would be quite nice if it were possible for some of those junctions :-D
10:45<OwenS:#openttd>Ok Qt,I've created a QListView, and attached it to a model (which has data)... yet you're not displaying it why?
10:54<@petern:#openttd>http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/5809/ < hahaha
10:56<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>hm... i hate KitKat
10:56<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i always try to open them like a Ritter Sport
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10:58<OwenS:#openttd>WTF is a Ritter Sport? :p
10:59-!-slalom77 [~fgch@p4FE1DBDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:59<dihedral:#openttd>^^
10:59<Vikthor:#openttd>Chocolate
11:00<dihedral:#openttd>petern, CS creations are protected by his agent
11:01<dihedral:#openttd>and they dont sue if there is no money to be had :-P
11:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>OwenS: it's a chocolate with a patented way of opening
11:02<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>the enclosing wrap opens when you break the chocolate bar in half
11:03<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you can break a KitKat in half, the same way, but it won't open the wrap
11:03<dihedral:#openttd>and you get 4x2 squares
11:03<dihedral:#openttd>hehe - have a break!
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11:09<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>HackYourInternetConnectionaLittleBit?
11:09<dihedral:#openttd>lol
11:09<dihedral:#openttd>he just did :-P
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11:11<@petern:#openttd>dihedral, it was the claims in some of the comments that i found funny
11:12<dihedral:#openttd>:-)
11:12<@petern:#openttd>anyway, when opengfx is finished...
11:12<dihedral:#openttd>like the 'abandonware does check'
11:12<dihedral:#openttd>:-)
11:12*dihedral:#openttd will carry on using the originals
11:12<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>"abandonia.com [...] check legality before they put something up" <- that is really awesome :p
11:13<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>next step is "TPB check legality before they put something up" :p
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11:22<planetmaker:#openttd>[16:30] <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i have never heard that word before <-- you should read hofstatter's "and endless golden braid" then ;)
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11:32<OwenS:#openttd>Only difference betwen TPB and Abandonia is that Abandonia exists in a grey area :p
11:33<energetic:#openttd>are there any bugs known with presignals?
11:34<dihedral:#openttd>not that i know of :-P
11:36<energetic:#openttd>since I have a savegame where trains persist in violating presignals
11:36<energetic:#openttd>actually its now online at Kurt server #2
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11:36<SmatZ:#openttd>energetic: one could say there is a bug in presignals when you have a "closed loop" of combo-signals, they can be set to red "forever"
11:36<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>make a screenshot, and a savegame, and post what you think is wrong
11:36<energetic:#openttd>at a bug report?
11:37<SmatZ:#openttd>hehe, yeah, savegame would be great :)
11:37<dihedral:#openttd>energetic, you are not the owner of those servers are you?
11:37<energetic:#openttd>no
11:37<energetic:#openttd>not spamming here :)
11:38<dihedral:#openttd>no - i wanted to chat to that guy
11:38<dihedral:#openttd>i just never get hold of him when i do try :-P
11:38<dihedral:#openttd>and he's never on irc
11:38<energetic:#openttd>Kurt?
11:38<dihedral:#openttd>aye
11:38<energetic:#openttd>well
11:38<energetic:#openttd>I am admin on his site
11:38<dihedral:#openttd>perfect :-)
11:39<energetic:#openttd>so maybe I can answer some questions for you>
11:39<dihedral:#openttd>you wanna let Kurt know that there is somebody who wants a chat? :-P
11:39<energetic:#openttd>sure
11:39<dihedral:#openttd>i am interested in the underlying bot
11:39<energetic:#openttd>delicate....delicate...
11:40<dihedral:#openttd>no - i dont want a copy
11:40<dihedral:#openttd>i just have thoughts, questions, ideas, etc.... and Kurt could be of some good help :-)
11:41<energetic:#openttd>but keep in mind it is his baby
11:42<dihedral:#openttd>sure it is
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11:42<energetic:#openttd>i think it is your lucky day
11:42<dihedral:#openttd>perfect
11:43-!-Kurt [~stefan@p5497A3B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
11:44<energetic:#openttd>-_-
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11:45<SmatZ:#openttd>energetic: which server is it? Kurt's hard goal?
11:45<energetic:#openttd>yes, but it is already restarted
11:45<energetic:#openttd>so the savegame is gone. I have it on my hd though
11:46<SmatZ:#openttd>good :)
11:46<SmatZ:#openttd>there have been ~2 bug reports about trains ignoring signals, but none with savegame...
11:46<energetic:#openttd>bug report.... let me see
11:47<energetic:#openttd>gimme 10 min and i fix a report
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11:53<SmatZ:#openttd>- if (force <= 0) force = 10000;
11:53<SmatZ:#openttd>hehe, I really loved that line ;)
11:54<energetic:#openttd>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2568
11:55<@petern:#openttd>SmatZ, indeed :)
11:55<Aali:#openttd>so its better to have no force at all than to have <10000? great :P
11:55<energetic:#openttd>I think it has something to do with the positioning of the exit signals: they are "two sections"
11:55<@petern:#openttd>Aali: follow the code
11:56<SmatZ:#openttd>energetic: it's a duplicate of...
11:56<@petern:#openttd>force could not ever be <= 0
11:56<Aali:#openttd>actually, I'd rather just have dinner
11:56<Aali:#openttd>right, heh
11:56<@petern:#openttd>(only if power or mass was 0)
11:56<OwenS:#openttd>I once saw a language which took C's +=, -=, *=, etc to the extreme: =< and => were "Assignment less than" and "Assignment greater than"...
11:57<@petern:#openttd>(or if it was going very very fast, in which case no need for an extra 10000)
11:57<@petern:#openttd>OwenS... that's stupid
11:58<OwenS:#openttd>Caused lots of bugs, yes :p
11:58<energetic:#openttd>SmatZ: ?
11:59<SmatZ:#openttd>energetic: I can't find the other FS task...
11:59<SmatZ:#openttd>the presignals are working fine
11:59<SmatZ:#openttd>but the train doesn't have that station as its next order
12:00<SmatZ:#openttd>so it's another case of "PFs don't support dead end bouncing"
12:01<SmatZ:#openttd>energetic: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1473
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12:25<dihedral:#openttd>energetic, thank you :-)
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12:29<@petern:#openttd>hmm
12:29<@petern:#openttd>can someone tell me what "0.035 * mass * speed" is meant to represent?
12:29<@petern:#openttd>60 * num is meant to be axle friction, i think, but i don't know where the 60 comes from
12:30<@petern:#openttd>results are in lbf (approximately)
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12:30<@petern:#openttd>area * drag_coeff * speed * speed is obviously airdrag
12:32<Zuu:#openttd>How do I load the crash.dmg in msvc? If I recall what glx said one should get a file from binaries coresponding to the used nightly. The most relevant file I found is a .pdb file. I have placed it in the same directory as openttd.exe. Opening neither the .pdb-file, the .dmg-file nor the openttd.exe with the standard open dialog of msvc works. Either I am doing something wrongt or the express version of msvc 2005 don't support
12:32<Zuu:#openttd> getting the call trace...
12:33<Zuu:#openttd>(my food is on the stove so I will be afk a few minutes)
12:34<+glx:#openttd>if you have exe, pdb corresponding to exe and dmp you just need to open the dmp in msvc
12:34<+glx:#openttd>don't forget to rename the pdb, it should be openttd.pdb
12:34<SmatZ:#openttd>petern: can it be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_resistance this?
12:36<planetmaker:#openttd>makes sense. it's in the order of 3% of the weight, considering iron on iron.
12:36<@petern:#openttd>i've looked at that page a lot
12:37<@petern:#openttd>speed is not in the formulas at all
12:38<planetmaker:#openttd>petern: can you give me the code lines / filename you look at?
12:38<frosch123:#openttd>according to the units it is a power :) is it also used as such, or needs 0.035 also a unit?
12:38<@petern:#openttd>train_cmd.cpp:495-498
12:38<frosch123:#openttd>no, wrong, it is not a power :/
12:39<@petern:#openttd>it's force
12:39<@petern:#openttd>35 is listed as "friction"
12:39<planetmaker:#openttd>ty
12:40<@petern:#openttd>resistance *= 4 at the end is a rough conversion from lbf to N, should be 4.4
12:40<SmatZ:#openttd>constant * mass * speed is momentum
12:41<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>just convert the damn thing to metric already
12:41<SmatZ:#openttd>:-)
12:41<@petern:#openttd>SmatZ, momentum isn't a resistive force
12:41<@petern:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause, ding
12:41<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>momentum is an impulse, right?
12:41<SmatZ:#openttd>it's not, but I was trying to do a unit analysis... so I determined it is a momentum
12:41<SmatZ:#openttd>according to units...
12:41<planetmaker:#openttd>SmatZ: there should be no constant...
12:41<planetmaker:#openttd>... in SI units.
12:42<SmatZ:#openttd>planetmaker: hehe :-) we can measure speed in multiplies of speed of light ;)
12:42<SmatZ:#openttd>planetmaker: there are constants like coefficients of friction
12:42<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>wait, your trains don't do 0,2c?
12:42<SmatZ:#openttd>-i
12:42<SmatZ:#openttd>:o)
12:43<planetmaker:#openttd>SmatZ: but not for momentum :)
12:43<@petern:#openttd>to fully use SI you need floats, so ... no
12:43<SmatZ:#openttd>planetmaker: hehe :-)
12:43<planetmaker:#openttd>for friction: sure :)
12:43<planetmaker:#openttd>that's engineering, not physics :P
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12:50<@petern:#openttd>Celestar!
12:50<@petern:#openttd>Celestar! Celestar! Celestar!
12:52<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Beetlegeuse? (is that spelled this way?)
12:54<planetmaker:#openttd>if it's the star: no
12:54<@petern:#openttd>beetelgeuse
12:55<planetmaker:#openttd>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beteigeuze
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12:55<SmatZ:#openttd>8-)
12:55<@petern:#openttd>oh, betel :p
12:56<@petern:#openttd>beetle juice... that was a dodgy film
12:57<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>planetmaker: no, i don't mean the star
12:57<planetmaker:#openttd>:D
12:57<Zuu:#openttd>glx: Thanks, I now renamed the pdb file. Still got errors when trying to open the dmg file from inside msvs 2005 c++, but I googled a bit and someone suggested double clicking the crash.dmg file. So i double clicked it and that worked. :-)
12:58<+glx:#openttd>oh and you need source from the same rev somewhere :)
12:58<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i mean this stupid guy whose name you ought to say three times
12:58<Zuu:#openttd>glx: Yep, though the callstack is there without giving it the source it seams.
12:59<+glx:#openttd>true, but it's often nice to see the code around the calls
12:59<Zuu:#openttd>yep, that won't work of course.
13:04<dihedral:#openttd>Yexo, did you not commit freeform map edges?
13:05<+Yexo:#openttd>yes, so?
13:05<+Yexo:#openttd>(haven't read the log yet)
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13:09<planetmaker:#openttd>petern: the term friction * mass * speed / 1000 - I guess it's the engine's internal friction (wheels, etc... which may go linear in speed instead of quadratic as air drag
13:09<Zuu:#openttd>"Assertion failed at c:\openttd\compile\src\tile_map.h:136: IsValidTile(tile)" again, when scrolling around in the minimap with company-view on autonightly server.
13:10<Zuu:#openttd>GetTileOwner gets called with a bad tile id (3003928), the map is 1024x1024 which shouldn't give a such high tile id I think.
13:11<+glx:#openttd>Zuu: update :)
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13:11<Zuu:#openttd>glx: It's already fixed?
13:11<+glx:#openttd>you have smallmap open I guess
13:11<Zuu:#openttd>Yep
13:11<@petern:#openttd>don't need to guess
13:11<Zuu:#openttd>It is fixed then, I decide :-)
13:11<+glx:#openttd>r15201
13:12<Zuu:#openttd>next time I should read the changelog before diging up the call stack :-)
13:14<dihedral:#openttd>Yexo, would it be possible, to make water_borders accept another options 'random' ?
13:14<@petern:#openttd>dihedral: yes please
13:14<@petern:#openttd>i saw the list
13:14<+Yexo:#openttd>sure, it's just a value from 0-15
13:14<Zuu:#openttd>dihedral: Have you seen planetmakers patch?
13:14<@petern:#openttd>and thought... "what? i don't care"
13:14<dihedral:#openttd>nope
13:14<dihedral:#openttd>pm?
13:14<+Yexo:#openttd>FS#2566
13:14<Zuu:#openttd>pm yes, on the dev-section of the forum.
13:15<planetmaker:#openttd>:)
13:15<dihedral:#openttd>@fs 2566
13:15<@DorpsGek:#openttd>dihedral: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2566
13:15<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: there are some coding-style issues with that patch, but I like the functionality ;)
13:15<dihedral:#openttd>pm: you genious ;-)
13:15<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: I found some... there's at least a super-fluous "SetDirty()"...
13:16<planetmaker:#openttd>And I'm not happy about the code duplication with tgp.cpp
13:16<dihedral:#openttd>and also, it would be quite nice if servers quit writing the game seed to the config
13:16<dihedral:#openttd>why is it there in the first place?
13:16<+Yexo:#openttd>BorderDirections should be moved to some hear file, but you already knew that ;p
13:16<dihedral:#openttd>makes all games after a server restart the same
13:16<planetmaker:#openttd>dihedral: re-play
13:16<dihedral:#openttd>grrrr
13:16<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: any good idea which is most suitable?
13:17<dihedral:#openttd>anyway - me has to run runns
13:17<dihedral:#openttd>laters
13:17<planetmaker:#openttd>cu dih
13:17<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: the order of your widgets is inconsistent, you have NW_TEXT, NE_TEXT, NW, NE, SW_TEXT, ..
13:18<+Yexo:#openttd>either do the four _TEXT first or mix them (NW_TEXT, _NW, NE_TEXT,..)
13:18<planetmaker:#openttd>right... I initially placed them differently
13:18<planetmaker:#openttd>first text then buttons looks much neater, I agree.
13:18<planetmaker:#openttd>Next to it to the right a button "random"?
13:18<+Yexo:#openttd>four times SetWidgetDisabledState <- iirc there is a function that accepts multiple widgets, that way you don't have to duplicate the bools 4 times
13:19<+Yexo:#openttd>not sure where a random button should go
13:19<planetmaker:#openttd>I would put it right of the Land/Water buttons
13:19<+Yexo:#openttd>SetWidgetLoweredState <- missing a space before BORDER
13:20<+Yexo:#openttd>same for ToggleBit use later
13:20<planetmaker:#openttd>Oh, I see. Thx for pointing out :)
13:20*planetmaker:#openttd opens laptop :)
13:20<+Yexo:#openttd>and again, be consistent in the order of the directions, ie you use NW, NE, SE, SW first, but in OnPaint you use NE, NW suddenly
13:21<+Yexo:#openttd>case GLAND_WATER_BORDERS_PULLDOWN <- just removed it, don't comment it out
13:21<planetmaker:#openttd>oh... that I overlooked... an embarressingly long list :(
13:21<planetmaker:#openttd>I guess I shouldn't code at 3am... :P
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13:22<+Yexo:#openttd>it are only small points though :)
13:22<+Yexo:#openttd>could also have said: please comply to the coding style, that would've been a short list :p
13:23<planetmaker:#openttd>:) I like the long list better :)
13:23*planetmaker:#openttd hugs Yexo
13:25<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>omg... each time you think it can't get any worse... there's always the next knight rider episode...
13:26<@Belugas:#openttd>[13:24] <planetmaker> :) I like the long list better :) <-- should we change the coding style to appeal you more, dear planetmaker ?
13:26<planetmaker:#openttd>hu?
13:27<planetmaker:#openttd>That's not what I even remotely tried to imply.
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13:27<planetmaker:#openttd>I rather meant: I that way know better what I did wrong :) - a neat service for me instead of a brief "coding style missmatch" :)
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13:28<planetmaker:#openttd>I have absolutely no issue with the coding style...
13:28<planetmaker:#openttd>sorry, if I came across as such.
13:35<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: concerning randomization: display the chosen values (e.g. no push button for randomize, rather just like for seed)?
13:35<+Yexo:#openttd>I would do that yes
13:36<planetmaker:#openttd>shall I integrate it? I mean, it's a seperate feature, but not much work to add here...
13:36<+Yexo:#openttd>just add it
13:36<planetmaker:#openttd>k
13:36<Zuu:#openttd>So pushing the random button will make a random selection of which buttons are on/off. If I am reading what you are saying correctly.
13:36<planetmaker:#openttd>Zuu:yes
13:37<Zuu:#openttd>That seams like a resonable solution to me.
13:37<planetmaker:#openttd>it's the easiest and code-wise lightest.
13:38<Zuu:#openttd>If you really want to have it like suprise to the user, the buttons can just be hidden, but still same solution.
13:38<Zuu:#openttd>But that is unneccessary complication I would say.
13:38<Aali:#openttd>what about dedicated servers?
13:39<Aali:#openttd>will they be able to randomize map borders?
13:39<+Yexo:#openttd>if it's only a gui option, no
13:39<planetmaker:#openttd>hm... good point actually...
13:39<planetmaker:#openttd>it's so far also only a gui-only option, afaik, right?
13:40<+Yexo:#openttd>so make random a pushbutton too and disable the other buttons if set
13:40<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: what do you mean? which map borders are water can be set in the config file
13:40<planetmaker:#openttd>oh, ok :)
13:40<planetmaker:#openttd>then a pushbutton with disable manual.
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13:41<slalom77:#openttd>I found out that my openttd versions stores (important?) information on drive c: in the -own documents- folder, isnt that a problem when i use more than 1 different version of the game ?
13:41<Zuu:#openttd>I'd say have same text on it when depresed as well as when presed.
13:42<planetmaker:#openttd>Why?
13:42<planetmaker:#openttd>I'd make it manual vs. random
13:42<Zuu:#openttd>As it will probably be depresed by default, and how would one know that pressing the button will give random.. hmm well yes disabling manual could be said to give random.
13:42<Aali:#openttd>slalom77: if you create a .cfg file in the working dir of ottd, it will use that instead
13:43<planetmaker:#openttd>and with differing texts it's easier to see what's the case.
13:43<+Yexo:#openttd>slalom77: it's not a problem if you don't mind all versions having the same configuration
13:43<slalom77:#openttd>@yexo :-)
13:43<slalom77:#openttd>ty aali
13:43<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: translators * r15209 /trunk/src/lang/ (19 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:43<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-01-22 18:42:44
13:43<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 1 fixed by khaloofah (1)
13:43<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: catalan - 20 fixed by arnaullv (20)
13:43<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changed by Excel20 (1)
13:43<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: finnish - 10 fixed by jpx_ (10)
13:43<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: french - 1 changed by glx (1)
13:43<Zuu:#openttd>pm: so go for your original idea
13:44*Yexo:#openttd can finally reproduce squirrel trashing the stack during save :)
13:44<Zuu:#openttd>Yexo: Wohoo
13:44<+Yexo:#openttd>now fixing it is another problem...
13:44<Zuu:#openttd>hehe :-)
13:45<slalom77:#openttd>and one more question please, my toolbar changed to different icons, for example a bomb instead of the tnt-bone, it seems not to be related with an .grf, how did i activate that ?
13:45<+Yexo:#openttd>yoo are using openfgx
13:45<slalom77:#openttd>me?
13:45<@Belugas:#openttd>it's ok, planetmaker. I might have wrongly read the converstation too ^_^ happens a lot
13:45<Zuu:#openttd>At least the toolbar from OpenGFX.
13:45<+glx:#openttd>you downloaded opengfx
13:45<slalom77:#openttd>there was something with opengfx true
13:45<planetmaker:#openttd>np, Belugas :)
13:46<slalom77:#openttd>was that an grf ?
13:46<+Yexo:#openttd>slalom77: yes, you: see http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Graphics_Replacement#Uninstalling_OpenGFX if you don't want it (and the rest of that page for more info)
13:46<+Yexo:#openttd>it's under the category "base graphics"
13:47<slalom77:#openttd>got it:If you downloaded OpenGFX manually: delete all OpenGFX related files from the OpenTTD data directory:
13:47<slalom77:#openttd>ty
13:48<slalom77:#openttd>in a few month i know all optins/addons and can start playing :-)
13:50<slalom77:#openttd>i found a very intersting mod where city growth depends on delivery of different goods, but its a very old version, did anyone hear about a newer version of this or similar mods ?
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13:51<Zuu:#openttd>slalom77: If you play desert or artic landscape in the original OpenTTD without any newgrfs you will need to deliver certain goods to towns in desert/snowy areas to have them growing.
13:53<slalom77:#openttd>someone implemented this to the normal landscape, and added a few new indutries, gold, water etc...
13:53<Zuu:#openttd>And speaking about 'mods' (we don't use that word in the OpenTTD community), there are mainly two types: newgrfs and patches. NewGRFs are graphics files you load into OpenTTD. Patches are source code modifications which require that you recompile OpenTTD.
13:54<Zuu:#openttd>slalom77: You could try the grfcrawler
13:54<Zuu:#openttd>http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/
13:55<slalom77:#openttd>i know..but i got this as a "mod" from http://www.overclockers.at/games_forum/transport_tycoon_deluxe_141258, below as "OpenTTD Spinoff Beta 2"
13:56<@petern:#openttd>ancient
13:56<slalom77:#openttd>u mean grfcrawler, the website, didnt find it there already
13:57<@Belugas:#openttd>Spin Off is not a mod, it's a branch, even a fork
13:57<Zuu:#openttd>slalom77: Then look for "OpenTTD spinoff beta 2" on the forums, though it is quite dead now.
13:57<@Belugas:#openttd>and it's not "u", it's "you" ;)
13:57<Zuu:#openttd>(forums being tt-forums.net)
13:59<edeca:#openttd>Hm, does trunk compile on cygwin for anybody else?
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14:00<@petern:#openttd>how convenient
14:00<@petern:#openttd>one of my new 'realistic acceleration' equations requires a / 256...
14:00<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>nobody ever compiled on cygwin
14:01<edeca:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: I did.
14:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>i was being ironic
14:01<edeca:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: I know.
14:01<SmatZ:#openttd>sarcasm fail
14:01<Zuu:#openttd>edeca: nightlies are compiled on msvc currently
14:01<Zuu:#openttd>(the windows nightlies that is)
14:01<edeca:#openttd>Zuu: Hm, from memory that requires some weird combination of DirectX? I might have a look at the wiki and try again.
14:02<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>edeca: possibly, you might get better results by stating the actual problem
14:02<edeca:#openttd>Fails when linking: /lib/libz.a(gzio.o):gzio.c:(.text+0xd3): undefined reference to `___errno'
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14:03<Zuu:#openttd>edeca: Yes you need to read on the wiki page and install the specified direct x versions to be able to use msvc, but reading the wiki is not so hard. :-)
14:03<edeca:#openttd>Zuu: Nope, that's fine :)
14:04<planetmaker:#openttd>hm... I've been searching the code now for quite some time, but still not sure. What's the appropriate way to get a 4 bit random number?
14:05<Zuu:#openttd>planetmaker: There is interactive random which I guess is safe for this application, but more in detail I don't know.
14:05<+Yexo:#openttd>GB(InteractiveRandom(), 0, 4)
14:05<slalom77:#openttd>im surprised that nobody uses "u" anymore instead of "you" ... for a while it was very usual, no ?
14:05<planetmaker:#openttd>ty :)
14:05<planetmaker:#openttd>slalom77: and for non-natives rather tricky to read
14:05<+Yexo:#openttd>slalom77: only on those too lazy to writer proper english
14:05<+Yexo:#openttd>s/on/for/
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14:07<Zuu:#openttd>Also there is a distinct difference between using acronyms such as IIRC etc. than using 'u' for you or '1' for one etc.
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14:27<nicfer:#openttd>one question, is there an aircraft set that combines with the GRVTS?
14:28<Aali:#openttd>is there an aircraft set that doesn't?
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14:29<nicfer:#openttd>I mean, in 1800 you'll have trains and buses but not aircrafts or ships
14:30<nicfer:#openttd>trains with the 2cc trainset
14:30<planetmaker:#openttd>nicfer: do you consider that desirable to have planes prior to ~1900?
14:31<planetmaker:#openttd>http://www.openttdcoop.org/files/pm/patches/Bild%202.png <-- what about that arrangement of the buttons?
14:31<nicfer:#openttd>wasn't the game avoiding realism?
14:31<planetmaker:#openttd>It saves space and makes orientation of the directions clear
14:32<edeca:#openttd>What benefit does land at the edges give?
14:32<planetmaker:#openttd>nicfer: no. Nor was it simulating reality
14:32<planetmaker:#openttd>edeca: nicer scenarios?
14:32<Progman:#openttd>planetmaker: the randomise button a checkbbox which disable the edge buttons?
14:32<nicfer:#openttd>I mean, if we're avoiding realism, why not also put planes before 1900?
14:33<planetmaker:#openttd>Progman: not now. It will just randomize the four edges.
14:33<planetmaker:#openttd>I'm still not convinced that it shall disable manual configuration of those...
14:33<Progman:#openttd>indeed, but should be depend on the random seed
14:33<planetmaker:#openttd>it will need another variable :)
14:33<planetmaker:#openttd>Progman: that it doesn't either...
14:34<Aali:#openttd>nicfer: there's nothing to stop you from putting in planes before 1900
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14:34<edeca:#openttd>planetmaker: Makes sense.
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14:35<Aali:#openttd>that said, its incredibly silly to use the realism or no realism argument to try to get what you want
14:37<edeca:#openttd>Aali: You mean there might be things in the game that *aren't* realistic?
14:37*edeca:#openttd sobs
14:37<nicfer:#openttd>yes, there is: the incapacity of creating newgrfs
14:40<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: is it ok to save the desire to have randomized borders in the same enum as BORDER_NW, ...?
14:40<planetmaker:#openttd>as an additional enum entry?
14:40<+Yexo:#openttd>not really sure, but do so for now
14:40<planetmaker:#openttd>k
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14:42<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: the strings look like they're a few pixels too high wrt the buttons
14:42<planetmaker:#openttd>yes. I think that, too. I fixed that meanwhile.
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14:43<Tim-itry:#openttd>Heyho :)
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14:44<Timitry:#openttd>Have a look at this:
14:44<Timitry:#openttd>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/User:Timitry/3-Way-Junctions
14:44<Timitry:#openttd>:)
14:47<+Yexo:#openttd>looks like the return value for a DoCommand is stored at the wrong place if a save happens during the docommand
14:47*Yexo:#openttd is happy to found the cause :)
14:47<Aali:#openttd>yeah, that page could pretty much replace every other 3-way junction in the wiki
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14:48<Timitry:#openttd>:)
14:48<+Yexo:#openttd>Timitry: the coop guys would want a "Advanced 3-way junction with doubled briges " where the length over both bridges is equal
14:48<Timitry:#openttd>Yes, i know, i used to play a lot on their servers :)
14:49<+Yexo:#openttd>but it's a nice summery of the best 3-way junctions on the wiki
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14:50<Timitry:#openttd>But explaining now that like this trains might cause phatom-jams because the ones travelling over the lower bridges will need a little bit longer might be a bit over the top :D
14:50<+Yexo:#openttd>very true :)
14:51<OwenS:#openttd>Yexo, they wouldn't care since they don't do LR to LR junctions nayway :p
14:51<Timitry:#openttd>Well, but this applies to any kind of bridge doubling :)
14:51<Timitry:#openttd>Even if its LLLLL____RRRRRR
14:51<OwenS:#openttd>If you have 5 lanes per direction, your doing something ridiculous anyway :p
14:52<OwenS:#openttd>One tile trains? :P
14:52<Timitry:#openttd>nah, but sometimes only 2 tiles :D
14:52<Timitry:#openttd>psg #75 was fuuuuuuuuuun
14:52<Aali:#openttd>psg114? had 5-lane mainline IIRC
14:53<Timitry:#openttd>Ah no, it was PSG 70
14:53<Timitry:#openttd>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_61_-_70
14:54<Timitry:#openttd>256x256 map with TL2... My first real game with OpenTTDCoop, i totally loved it :)
14:54<Aali:#openttd>and the game i was refering to was 115
14:54<OwenS:#openttd>Some ass flattened my first PSG game in the days before autosaves =(
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14:56<OwenS:#openttd>My first game would be 6.9 in the current numbering (As is, my first game is SB#7 :p)
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14:59<PhoenixII:#openttd>:p
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15:01<Wolf01:#openttd>hello
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15:11<@petern:#openttd>hello people
15:12<+Yexo:#openttd>hello petern
15:15<Wolf01:#openttd>I have a suggestion about the freeform edges, especially the combo box to choose which edges should be water when generating a random map: why not use icons to show the interested edges instead of writings?
15:15<+Yexo:#openttd>Wolf01: planetmaker is working on that
15:15<Wolf01:#openttd>oh, good :D
15:15-!-angelo [angelo@ppp117-104.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:15<+Yexo:#openttd>see http://www.openttdcoop.org/files/pm/patches/Bild%202.png
15:15<planetmaker:#openttd>:)
15:17<Wolf01:#openttd>I think it is not possible to use small icons on a combo box, is it?
15:18<planetmaker:#openttd>Hm.... is there a widget for right aligned text?
15:18<+glx:#openttd>Wolf01: it is
15:18<+glx:#openttd>but buttons are better in this case
15:18-!-Darkvater [~tfarago@silver.liacs.nl] has joined #openttd
15:18-!-mode/#openttd [+o Darkvater] by ChanServ
15:18<@Darkvater:#openttd>hiya :)
15:18<Wolf01:#openttd>hello Darkvater
15:18<+glx:#openttd>evening DV
15:18<planetmaker:#openttd>hello Darkvater
15:18<@Darkvater:#openttd>any luck with freetype glx ?
15:20-!-Zealotus [~Ping@78-69-54-150-no70.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:23<Wolf01:#openttd>and what about something like the cells borders of excel? http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/vis/documentation/workshops/images/xl11.jpg
15:24-!-Zealotus [~Ping@78-69-54-150-no70.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
15:24<Wolf01:#openttd>not so complicate, just 4 buttons with a picture in the middle showing if it's water or soil
15:25<@petern:#openttd>one problem i see is "i don't want the whole edge to be land"
15:26<Wolf01:#openttd>yes, that's also a problem I didn't thought about (I only tried a little how the new feature works)
15:26<planetmaker:#openttd>petern: that's not what happens. But it _may_ be land
15:27<@petern:#openttd>planetmaker: i know, but it is not clear from the options
15:27<planetmaker:#openttd>hm... yeah. True
15:28<Aali:#openttd>perhaps its better to name the options "Water" and "Freeform"
15:28<planetmaker:#openttd>So... better wording needed :)
15:28<planetmaker:#openttd>:) probably better idea, Aali
15:28<planetmaker:#openttd>or arbitrary
15:29<@petern:#openttd>freeform is the word used elsewhere, so
15:30<planetmaker:#openttd>yup. Changed it.
15:30-!-lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Quit: AS A VAGINA ONCE SAID: <yorick> SOMEONE BAN HIM]
15:31<+glx:#openttd>Darkvater: MSVC 2005 fails to link with freetype from MSVC 2008
15:31<+glx:#openttd>3>libfreetype2.lib(autofit.obj) : fatal error LNK1103: debugging information corrupt; recompile module
15:31<@Darkvater:#openttd>glx: also with __cdecl as in mine?
15:33<+glx:#openttd>yes using __cdecl
15:33<@Darkvater:#openttd>hmm, well I remember msvc2005 support was dropped some time ago no?
15:33<@Darkvater:#openttd>glx: does 2008 link with version of 2005?
15:34<+glx:#openttd>yes that works
15:35<@Darkvater:#openttd>probably 2008 is being magicky
15:35<+glx:#openttd>libfreetype2.lib size is different with 2005 and 2008
15:35<@Darkvater:#openttd>of course
15:35<+glx:#openttd>(smaller by 5KB with 2008)
15:35<@Darkvater:#openttd>different compiler
15:35<+glx:#openttd>for other libs no differences
15:36-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@54.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
15:36<Terkhen:#openttd>good evening people
15:36<Wolf01:#openttd>hi
15:36<@Darkvater:#openttd>interseting
15:37<@petern:#openttd>bah
15:37<Vikthor:#openttd>I have run into the issue with BaNaNaS - I would like to upload few Tycoonez grfs of which I am not the author, but I have permission of the author, what shall I do?
15:38<Aali:#openttd>you shall get the author to do it
15:39-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.192.105] has joined #openttd
15:40<Vikthor:#openttd>he is not interested to do so, but he does not mind if somebody else does that
15:40-!-KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-228-47.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:40<@petern:#openttd>this 75mph train only reaches 68mph :/
15:40<Aali:#openttd>then you will have to wait until the rules change
15:41<planetmaker:#openttd>Vikthor: that's the CSD sets or grfs from there?
15:42<Vikthor:#openttd>Well so far I have only minimes agreement, so only Czech Town names, unifont and others
15:43<planetmaker:#openttd>right :)
15:44<planetmaker:#openttd>Best would indeed be, if you could talk him into uploading it himself.
15:45-!-Darkvater [~tfarago@silver.liacs.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:46<Vikthor:#openttd>Sure, but that's probably not going to happen, at least not very soon, he is quite busy with migration of our forums to new machine and of course Real life
15:46-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@89.246.208.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:47<planetmaker:#openttd>yeah... as usual :S
15:47<Vikthor:#openttd>The idea was I will handle the bananas stuff for him and probably others
15:47<planetmaker:#openttd>are you co-author?
15:47<Wolf01:#openttd>gah... I have 2 scenarios unloadable because they have grfs... there's a way to clean all the grfs from a scenario (maybe keep the terrain only)?
15:47<@petern:#openttd>you could pretend to be him and say no more ;)
15:48<Vikthor:#openttd>petern: Good solution, but it came too late :)
15:48<+Yexo:#openttd>imo if you have the authors permission to upload it you should be able to
15:48<@petern:#openttd>or: ask him to create an account and, er,yeah
15:49<planetmaker:#openttd>hm, where do I find all those widget templates? I just don't find it...
15:49<planetmaker:#openttd>I need right aligned strings...
15:49<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: window_gui.h
15:50<+Yexo:#openttd>but there are no right-alligned strings I think
15:50<Vikthor:#openttd>Yexo: Well, that's what I thought, but the Agreement when registering for manager says otherwise
15:51<+Yexo:#openttd>I know, but I'm not the one who can change it
15:51<Vikthor:#openttd>That's TrueBrain, right?
15:51<+Yexo:#openttd>or Rubidium
15:52<+Yexo:#openttd>but I doubt it'll be changed, as that makes checking if uploaded things are really uploaded by their author nearly impossible
15:53-!-fjb [~frank@p5485FEF4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
15:53<Vikthor:#openttd>hmm I see
15:53<@Rubidium:#openttd>we don't want to get into fights with authors because "someone" uploaded their stuff to the content system
15:54<fjb:#openttd>Hello
15:54-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-86-27-118-49.bmly.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
15:54<@Rubidium:#openttd>so only when you are author of the content you may upload it. That way the author knows exactly where he is getting into instead of hearing some stories from someone without knowing the fine details
15:56<planetmaker:#openttd>otherwise I could upload 80% of the #openttdcoop grfpack :)
15:57-!-jpm_ [pekka@kone.suomen4g.fi] has joined #openttd
15:58<planetmaker:#openttd>you may remember me asking you and the tycoonez people about automatic download, Vikthor :)
15:59<Aali:#openttd>hmm
15:59<Wolf01:#openttd>'night
15:59<Vikthor:#openttd>planetmaker: I do, IIRC we settled on that that the licence Tycoonez uses is OK for that purpose, right?
15:59-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host254-233-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
15:59<planetmaker:#openttd>iirc, yes.
15:59<planetmaker:#openttd>except the train set itself
16:00<Aali:#openttd>the multiple authors system (assuming that will be implemented) should include an easy way for people to make someone co-author just for the purpose of uploading their stuff
16:00<Aali:#openttd>so the author still has to visit the site, read the terms etc, but doesn't have to deal with the actual uploading process
16:01<Vikthor:#openttd>Aali: Ahh right, so if I tell them to write me down as, say "Release Manager", everything will be all-right?
16:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>"author" can only be someone who holds the copyright
16:01<Aali:#openttd>there is no multiple authors system yet, so no :P
16:01<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>what you want is a designated "maintainer"
16:02<Aali:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause: this isn't a court of law, I don't care about the proper legal terms, you know what I meant etc :P
16:03-!-jpm [pekka@kone.suomen4g.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:05<planetmaker:#openttd>Hm... there's DrawStringRightAligned(x_right,y,string,TC_FROMSTRING,width) ...
16:05<planetmaker:#openttd>I wonder whether it will do.
16:06<planetmaker:#openttd>it's no widget, though... no. I'll leave it then.
16:08-!-Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
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16:09-!-Yeggstry [~mind@cpc2-rdng14-0-0-cust631.winn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
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16:12<Pieman191:#openttd>hey all
16:12<+Yexo:#openttd>hello Pieman191
16:15<Pieman191:#openttd>any tips while playing an online match?
16:15<planetmaker:#openttd>have fun :)
16:16<planetmaker:#openttd>and in case of doubt play on a server where you like the rules
16:16<@Belugas:#openttd>or one where you can blackmail the admin to gain advantages
16:16<Pieman191:#openttd>lol
16:16<planetmaker:#openttd>those are the best :)
16:17<planetmaker:#openttd>you know... sometimes it's advantages to be an admin :D
16:17-!-Timitry [~Tim@p5B37E74B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:17<Pieman191:#openttd>I mean, how to make money fast
16:18<+Yexo:#openttd>exactly the same as in singleplayer :p
16:18<+Yexo:#openttd>try building a few planes, or if that's not possible a coal train line
16:19<fjb:#openttd>And feed the planes with bus networks in the towns.
16:19<Pieman191:#openttd>I only get 100k starting money in online
16:20<Pieman191:#openttd>so the coal train sounds like a good idea
16:20<+Yexo:#openttd>that changes from server to server
16:20-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe4fc.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:26<planetmaker:#openttd>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2566/getfile/3850/worldgen_gui_r15201_v3.diff <-- new version @ Yexo
16:27<+Yexo:#openttd>I'll have a look
16:27<@Belugas:#openttd>i'll have a book
16:27<@Belugas:#openttd>i'll have a cook
16:27<@Belugas:#openttd>i'll have a duck
16:27<@Belugas:#openttd>i'll have a *uck
16:27<planetmaker:#openttd>I wish you luck :)
16:27<@Belugas:#openttd>i'll have a hook
16:28<@Belugas:#openttd>i'll have a muck
16:28<@Belugas:#openttd>i'll have a knock
16:28<planetmaker:#openttd>nooo. Not f...
16:28<planetmaker:#openttd>think of the children :D
16:28<@Belugas:#openttd>thus the star ;)
16:28<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>nobody said anything with "f" :p
16:28<planetmaker:#openttd>pffft.
16:28<planetmaker:#openttd>;)
16:29<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: can you use SetWidgetsDisabledState instead of 5 times SetWidgetDisabledState ?
16:29<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>you are leaking air
16:29<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: I tried to combine it, but I didn't figure how...
16:30<+Yexo:#openttd>this->SetWidgetsDisabledState(bool, widget1, widget2, ..., WIDGET_LIST_END);
16:30<Pieman191:#openttd>Anyway to stop these annoying "game connection lost" errors?
16:30<@Belugas:#openttd>[16:28] <@Belugas> i'll have a *uck <---i did!!!
16:30<+Yexo:#openttd>yes, fix your internet connection
16:30<@Belugas:#openttd>ibut i put on the censure flag :)
16:30<Pieman191:#openttd>I have verizon
16:31<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>Belugas: is that like automatically replacing your password?
16:31<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>like this: ********
16:31<Pieman191:#openttd>this is the only game I get disconnected alot in
16:33<@petern:#openttd>who what
16:33<planetmaker:#openttd>doh... I didn't see the "s" in SetWidgetSDisabledState... - that's why
16:33<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: glx * r15210 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix: Vehicle::GetRunningCost() was wrong for ships and aircraft
16:33<@petern:#openttd>:o
16:34-!-Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: from __future__ import antigravity]
16:35<@petern:#openttd>GetPriceByIndex should be used
16:35<@petern:#openttd>not _price.aircraft_running
16:35<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: why the BORDER_RANDOM bit?
16:35<+glx:#openttd>I just moved the code
16:36<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: to store the desire to have random borders.
16:36<+Yexo:#openttd>but you never use that except in the gui code
16:36<@petern:#openttd>not quite
16:36-!-dfox [~dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:36<planetmaker:#openttd>And it could - at the same time - possibly be re-used in the config file
16:36<planetmaker:#openttd>yes. Not yet.
16:36<planetmaker:#openttd>But it's possible to extend that
16:36-!-dfox [~dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #openttd
16:36<+Yexo:#openttd>if you do that, don't make it a bit but a special value (16), so you either store random or a bitset of the borders
16:37<planetmaker:#openttd>Borders is a bitset now anyway. 4 bits are used.
16:37<planetmaker:#openttd>I thought the highest bit might be a good choice to indicate ranomness.
16:37<@petern:#openttd>hm
16:37<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>planetmaker: how about, instead of a pressed/unpressed button, which is totally counter intuitive, why not have a button that cycles through the options? (water, land, random)?
16:37<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: it's not, because that breaks the save/load code (the value is capped to 0-15)
16:38<planetmaker:#openttd>ok... so I make it a local var then.
16:38<+Yexo:#openttd>why does it need to be a var at all?
16:38<+Yexo:#openttd>just have a button to randomize the choices
16:38<+Yexo:#openttd>I know, that doesn't give the option for servers
16:39<+Yexo:#openttd>if you want that, then use the value 16 as special value for random, and move the GB(InteractiveRandom(), 0, BORDER_MAX - BORDER_MIN + 1) to tgp.cpp
16:39<planetmaker:#openttd>then without disabling the other 4 widgets?
16:39<+Yexo:#openttd>no, you either have random or you set them manually
16:39<+Yexo:#openttd>not both
16:39<Eddi|zuHause:#openttd>what people might also wonder is what exactly does that "randomize" button affect? borders? roughness, etc? the random seed? [which already has a randomize button]
16:40<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: might be interesting for dedicated servers to have them random edges.
16:40<planetmaker:#openttd>generated
16:40<+Yexo:#openttd>I know
16:40<+Yexo:#openttd>ok if I modify your patch a bit?
16:40<planetmaker:#openttd>Sure.
16:42<planetmaker:#openttd>To me the most intuitive way to use a randomize button would be to set random values to the 4 borders, but not disable the possibility to edit it again (like my patch does now)
16:42-!-evandar [~evandar@213.168.176.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:45<Zuu:#openttd>Maybe even do the randomization based on the seed, so there is only one random button. hmmm
16:45<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: I'll make sure it works that way :)
16:45<planetmaker:#openttd>yeah, thought about that but got no good idea how to implement that.
16:45<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: he... I understood you that you wanted the way I implemented it :)
16:45<planetmaker:#openttd>but nvm :)
16:45<planetmaker:#openttd>shit happens.
16:45<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: approximatly
16:46<planetmaker:#openttd>the better is the good one's enemy ;)
16:46<planetmaker:#openttd>brb (15 minutes or so)
16:47<Zuu:#openttd>planetmaker: Read 4 bits from the seed and use those as states for the four buttons? Like the least or most significant bits or some in the middle.
16:48<planetmaker:#openttd>good idea
16:48<+Yexo:#openttd>that means that clicking the randomize button changes the state of the buttons for water edges
16:48<+Yexo:#openttd>that might be kind of unexpected, seeing it doesn't change any other values
16:48<Zuu:#openttd>Not sure exactly how one would do it, but should be possible. One have to make sure it works the same on endianes.
16:49<Zuu:#openttd>both endianes*
16:49<Zuu:#openttd>Yexo: Hmm, yes that is true. Only things that happen after you press generate are affected by the seed.
16:50<@Rubidium:#openttd>Zuu: endianness isn't something to worry about
16:50<@Rubidium:#openttd>except when you start writing stuff to somewhere outside OpenTTD
16:50<@Rubidium:#openttd>(network, disk, screen)
16:50<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: solution: don't show the random values with the buttons, but only hand over them, when generate is pressed.
16:50<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: wait 5 mins and you'll see my solution
16:50<planetmaker:#openttd>k.
16:51-!-evandar [~evandar@213.168.176.142] has joined #openttd
16:51<Zuu:#openttd>But then why should only water border have a random button, but not all other stuff in the dialog.. hehe many questions..
16:51<planetmaker:#openttd>because it's part of the map.
16:51<planetmaker:#openttd>actually I would just kick the "freeform edge setting" and leave it always on :D
16:53<Aali:#openttd>I have no issue with it being a simple on/off setting
16:54<Aali:#openttd>that would make things so much easier
16:55<Zuu:#openttd>Also a user don't have that much use of a random button. The main use for random would be servers, but those are excluded currently.
16:56-!-fawlty is now known as angelo
16:56*Zuu:#openttd is good on argumenting for both sides :-p
16:57-!-UFO64 [~jmurray@murrayjm8.umeres.maine.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:57<Zuu:#openttd>At TE we had a weekly discussion topic that we had extra focus on everey week :-D (Transport Empire for those who was not there 4 years ago)
17:02<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: smatz * r15211 /trunk/src/saveload/oldloader.cpp: -Fix (r15190): loading of TTD savegames was broken
17:02-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Changing PC.]
17:04-!-RS-SM [~RSCN@216-165-16-34.DYNAPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd
17:05<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: http://devs.openttd.org/~Yexo/worldgen_gui.diff <- language changes left out
17:07<+Yexo:#openttd>servers can set game_create.water_borders to 16 to get random water borders
17:07*planetmaker:#openttd looks
17:07<planetmaker:#openttd>nice.
17:08<planetmaker:#openttd>that's important, too IMO
17:08<+Yexo:#openttd>there is no way to set value 16 from the gui, but that's not needed either
17:08<planetmaker:#openttd>not really.
17:08-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd
17:10<@Rubidium:#openttd>what about CTRL-click random setting the value to 16?
17:10<dihedral:#openttd>pritties
17:11-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F5CF8C.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
17:11<fjb:#openttd>Hm, how do I begin and end a business letter in English?
17:11*petern:#openttd sniggers
17:11<planetmaker:#openttd>Rubidium: if you can set a random thing anyway, why have a 2nd way?
17:11<@Rubidium:#openttd>you begin the letter with an address ;)
17:11<fjb:#openttd>:-P :-)
17:11<planetmaker:#openttd>only gain is: you don't know what borders will be what ;)
17:12<+Yexo:#openttd>Rubidium: how do display that in the gui? disable the buttons?
17:12<+Yexo:#openttd>why does the gui need a random value at all (except for randomizing current choices)
17:12<fjb:#openttd>I mean after the address.
17:12-!-Pieman191 [~chatzilla@pool-98-114-150-179.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]]
17:12<RS-SM:#openttd>sup all
17:12<@Rubidium:#openttd>fjb: have you tried googling it?
17:12<RS-SM:#openttd>and the letter
17:12<RS-SM:#openttd>It is easy
17:12<Zuu:#openttd>fjb: Hi name, <new line><body> Best regards, <new line>fjb
17:12*RS-SM:#openttd put your address
17:12<RS-SM:#openttd>then you put greeting
17:13<RS-SM:#openttd>then you put message
17:13<RS-SM:#openttd>then you put thank you
17:13<RS-SM:#openttd>then you put name
17:13<Zuu:#openttd>But a comma after the name is what they use in English.
17:13<fjb:#openttd>Google gives many different results. Is "Hi" usual in a business letter?
17:13<RS-SM:#openttd>nope
17:13<Zuu:#openttd>(Swedes prefere an exclamation mark after the name)
17:13<RS-SM:#openttd>use formal terms
17:13<RS-SM:#openttd>Europeans are odd
17:13<fjb:#openttd>What are the proper formal terms?
17:14<fjb:#openttd>We are using a "," in Germany. :-)
17:14*planetmaker:#openttd 's laptop still compiles...
17:14*Zuu:#openttd taps on planetmaker's laptop
17:14<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: you want the version with the language changes?
17:15<dihedral:#openttd>While we are at the random stuff for map creation....
17:15<+Yexo:#openttd>there are a bit more (you should svn up)
17:15-!-Combuster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:15<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: I don't need other languages. But keeping the old strings there gave compile warnings.
17:15<dihedral:#openttd>can there be a setting for the generation seed, that marks 'random' and tells the game to not overwrite that value when saving the config again?
17:15<planetmaker:#openttd>I pulled latest trunk
17:16<+Yexo:#openttd>http://devs.openttd.org/~Yexo/worldgen_gui_lang.diff <- with changes to language files
17:16<Aali:#openttd>ctrl-click could depress the random button, deactivate the manual settings and set the config value to 16
17:16<planetmaker:#openttd>oh, wait. english.txt isn't changed in your patch either.
17:16<+Yexo:#openttd>forgot that one
17:16<planetmaker:#openttd>compile failure :)
17:16<+Yexo:#openttd>but I didn't change anything compared to your patch
17:16<+Yexo:#openttd>and I think STR_SET_BORDERS_MANUALLY can be removed now
17:16<@petern:#openttd>mov ebx,683,,...// 2.669*256
17:17<@petern:#openttd>^ snigger
17:17<SmatZ:#openttd>petern: what are you doing?
17:17<@petern:#openttd>SmatZ: still comparing acceleration models
17:17<@Rubidium:#openttd>SmatZ: what he has been doing for the last few weeks ;)
17:17<@petern:#openttd>someone's done a goodger_ there
17:17<fjb:#openttd>RS-SM: What is the proper greeting nowadays?
17:17<SmatZ:#openttd>petern: Rubidium: thanks :-)
17:18<@Rubidium:#openttd>why, cause 683 is in hex?
17:18<Zuu:#openttd>Night guys, better be fresh tomorrow.. logistics lecture tomorrow - with "beer game" :-)
17:18<@petern:#openttd>or, perhaps, i have :o
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17:18<@petern:#openttd>well
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17:19<@petern:#openttd>when i use ttdpatch's model, it doesn't work :/
17:19<RS-SM:#openttd>hmm
17:19<RS-SM:#openttd>sorry
17:19<RS-SM:#openttd>It is either Greeting, or Hello
17:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>fjb: Moin?
17:20<planetmaker:#openttd>Moin :)
17:20<fjb:#openttd>Rubidium: I love you. :-P
17:20<planetmaker:#openttd>g'night Zuu
17:20<fjb:#openttd>RS-SM: Thank you.
17:20<@Rubidium:#openttd>ieuw
17:20<RS-SM:#openttd>sin problemas
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17:25<planetmaker:#openttd>he... I nearly had that behaviour of the worldgen gui after half the time :)
17:27<planetmaker:#openttd>except that the random button switched between pressed and not pressed
17:28<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: :) so it's cool with you?
17:28<+Yexo:#openttd>yep :)
17:28<+Yexo:#openttd>I like this a lot better than the dropdown box
17:28<planetmaker:#openttd>:) I guess you're not alone ;)
17:29<+Yexo:#openttd>SmatZ already suggested button before, but I didn't found a nice way to implement them in the gui
17:29<+Yexo:#openttd>last patch I uploaded was ok?
17:32<planetmaker:#openttd>http://www.openttdcoop.org/files/pm/patches/worldgen_gui_r15211.diff <-- this is with the language modifications.
17:32<planetmaker:#openttd>I needed to add them
17:32<planetmaker:#openttd>it now has the other languages again...
17:32<+Yexo:#openttd>but no other changes?
17:32<planetmaker:#openttd>I didn't change other things, no
17:33<planetmaker:#openttd>I didn't test the server function yet, though
17:36<planetmaker:#openttd>because well... doesn't work on this machine :S
17:36<planetmaker:#openttd>bind fails...
17:38<planetmaker:#openttd>but alas, that's my LAN :)
17:40<SmatZ:#openttd>Yexo: planetmaker: maybe those buttons are too near to each other, what do you think?
17:40<+Yexo:#openttd>SmatZ: working on that
17:41<planetmaker:#openttd>SmatZ: I actually placed them that close on purpose - for two reasons.
17:41<fjb:#openttd>If bind doesn't work use Pattex.
17:41<planetmaker:#openttd>a) it represents the map with its 4 quadrants
17:41<SmatZ:#openttd>are you sure "Freeform" is appropriate? I think "Land/Water" is better...
17:41<planetmaker:#openttd>b) it's the available space
17:41<planetmaker:#openttd>hehe
17:41<SmatZ:#openttd>because you can always freeform water adges
17:41<planetmaker:#openttd>SmatZ: talk with petern - and the feature is called such
17:41<@Rubidium:#openttd>c) it gives translators a challenge
17:42<planetmaker:#openttd>That will be done anyway :)
17:42<+Yexo:#openttd>SmatZ: non-water edges are not 100% land (they may even be mostly water)
17:42<SmatZ:#openttd>and similiar, when you level the map, all edges will be flooded
17:42<SmatZ:#openttd>translation of "water/land" is easy ; translation of "freeform" isn't
17:42<planetmaker:#openttd>SmatZ: only water edge ensures 100% water. The other setting allows anything from 100% land to 100% water
17:43<planetmaker:#openttd>"Anything" was something I considered.
17:43<SmatZ:#openttd>Yexo: still I think "land" is better...
17:43<planetmaker:#openttd>"Random" another or maybe "Arbitrary"
17:43<planetmaker:#openttd>SmatZ: take much water and it will be 90% water despite.
17:43<planetmaker:#openttd>Quite confusing, if you ask me
17:43*SmatZ:#openttd would stick with "pevnina (land)" in translations anyway
17:44<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: I tend to agree with SmatZ, as a lot of the rest of the map is water in that case too
17:45<SmatZ:#openttd>maybe then let people choose "which edges have to be water" or so... but I think it's too complicated :)
17:45<planetmaker:#openttd>loool :) I think you should take my 2nd version of the patch, Yexo :)
17:46<SmatZ:#openttd>[23:42:21] <Rubidium> c) it gives translators a challenge <== it is a "pro" or "con"? :-P
17:46<planetmaker:#openttd>That's why I would distinguish between "water" and "arbitrary"
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17:57<+Yexo:#openttd>http://devs.openttd.org/~Yexo/worldgen_gui.png <- what do you think?
17:58<@Rubidium:#openttd>that looks way better
17:59<Aali:#openttd>and what happens if you click the randomise button?
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17:59<+Yexo:#openttd>Aali: the buttons are set in a random state
17:59<@petern:#openttd>text alignment is wrong
18:00<+Yexo:#openttd>it looks wrong indeed
18:00<+Yexo:#openttd>it's the same as for the labels above though
18:00<Aali:#openttd>:/
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18:00<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: the text looks better, if you missalign by two pixels.
18:00<@petern:#openttd>not all
18:01<Aali:#openttd>random map borders should be part of the generating process, not a GUI thing IMO
18:01<@petern:#openttd>"smoothness:" is also misaligned
18:01<planetmaker:#openttd>Aali: but you should have the ability to choose which borders are water. That's a good thing
18:01<planetmaker:#openttd>Especially, if you design scenarios.
18:01<+Yexo:#openttd>petern: you're right
18:02<Aali:#openttd>of course
18:02<planetmaker:#openttd>petern: but they're at the same y-offset
18:02<+Yexo:#openttd>the other texts are 1 px lower then the buttons,but the smoothness text is 1px higher instead
18:02<planetmaker:#openttd>as the buttons they *should* be aligned with
18:02<planetmaker:#openttd>he
18:02<Aali:#openttd>but it would be nice if the random button just disabled the manual part and set the config variable
18:02<planetmaker:#openttd>Aali: that it does.
18:03<planetmaker:#openttd>But you can change the randomized value by hand again. Nothing wrong with that
18:03<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: it doesn't
18:03<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: hm?
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18:03<Aali:#openttd>yeah, you can't do that
18:03<+Yexo:#openttd>the random button just sets it to a random value, not to RANDOM
18:03<@petern:#openttd>don't do that
18:03<planetmaker:#openttd>randomize randomizes the values - Yes. but effectively the same
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18:04<+Yexo:#openttd>petern: ?
18:04<Aali:#openttd>planetmaker: not the same
18:04<@petern:#openttd>dedicated server, for instance
18:04<@petern:#openttd>you need a value for random
18:04<Aali:#openttd>next time you generate a map, you'll get the same "random" unless you change it
18:04<+Yexo:#openttd>petern: they have
18:04<planetmaker:#openttd>petern: that's done
18:04<Aali:#openttd>which isn't very nice
18:04<+Yexo:#openttd>it's just not possible to set that via the gui
18:04<@petern:#openttd>hmm
18:05<@petern:#openttd>personally i think it's creeping into having far too many options :/
18:06<planetmaker:#openttd>well. a server needs a random map border while a human not necessarily does.
18:06<planetmaker:#openttd>Aali: the manual borders are also saved. So you'll re-create it.
18:07<planetmaker:#openttd>it's the same variable.
18:07<Aali:#openttd>and that's bad
18:07<planetmaker:#openttd>I don't get you
18:07<Aali:#openttd>I want to be able to set the config to RANDOM from the GUI, that's all
18:07<planetmaker:#openttd>why?
18:08<+Yexo:#openttd>for one because then you can use restart and get different water edges
18:08<planetmaker:#openttd>which I consider rather a bug.
18:08<planetmaker:#openttd>if I don't change anything
18:08<+Yexo:#openttd>hmm, not restart but newgame of course :)
18:09<planetmaker:#openttd>well... but that's mostly for dedicated servers. But alas. connecting the randomize button ther doesn't hurt
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18:12<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: then make "randomize map edges" a pushtxtbutton which - again - disables the manual thingy and then sets it to BORDER_RANDOM
18:12<+Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker: doing exactly that :p
18:12<planetmaker:#openttd>:P
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18:25<+Yexo:#openttd>http://devs.openttd.org/~Yexo/worldgen_gui.png <- everyone happy now? :p
18:26<+Yexo:#openttd>labels still need to be lowered 1px
18:26<@Rubidium:#openttd>there'll always be someone unhappy ;)
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18:30<planetmaker:#openttd>I'll be happy :)
18:30<planetmaker:#openttd>Makes life so much more pleasant :)
18:31<SmatZ:#openttd>Yexo: I think it should be "Manual", not "Manually"
18:32<+Yexo:#openttd>SmatZ: changed
18:32<+Yexo:#openttd>http://devs.openttd.org/~Yexo/worldgen_gui_lang.diff <- latest patch
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18:39<planetmaker:#openttd>:)
18:39<planetmaker:#openttd>fine for me
18:39<+Yexo:#openttd>Rubidium / SmatZ: any comments?
18:40*SmatZ:#openttd applies the patch
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18:52<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Hello all
18:52<+Yexo:#openttd>hello Nite_Owl
18:53<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Hello Yexo
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19:02<+Yexo:#openttd>SmatZ: comments?
19:06<SmatZ:#openttd>Yexo: nothing apart from what I have already said
19:06<+Yexo:#openttd>was there anything you said that I didn't change yet?
19:08<SmatZ:#openttd>I think "Land" would be better than "Freeform", but apparently I am in minority with that opinion
19:08<+glx:#openttd>freeform means anything :)
19:08<+Yexo:#openttd>I don't really care about "land"/"freeform"
19:08<+glx:#openttd>can be water or land
19:09<SmatZ:#openttd>you can freeform "water" edges, too
19:09<+Yexo:#openttd>yeah, but those settings are about the generation
19:09<Aali:#openttd>"Land" may be easier for the translators, but then it's equally confusing in all languages :)
19:10<+glx:#openttd>good point Aali
19:10<+glx:#openttd>though "forme libre" should fit
19:10<+Yexo:#openttd>the strnig is already called STR_BORDER_LAND , so if translators want to translate it with "land", they can
19:10<Aali:#openttd>and thats a con, I think it should say freeform and atleast not be confusing in english
19:11<+Yexo:#openttd>ok, I'll keep it at freeform for now
19:11<+glx:#openttd>right string id should match string body
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19:12<+Yexo:#openttd>glx: what do you mean? Should I change STR_BORDER_LAND to STR_BORDER_FREEFORM ?
19:13<+glx:#openttd>if the text is "freeform" I think it's better yes
19:14<+Yexo:#openttd>-Feature [FS#2566]: Change the dropdown box where you can choose which edges will be water to 4 pushbuttons (based on patch by planetmaker). <- ok?
19:15<el_en:#openttd>english only!
19:15<planetmaker:#openttd>sure :)
19:15<el_en:#openttd>OED says it is "free-form".
19:17<+Yexo:#openttd>choose or chose?
19:17<el_en:#openttd>or cheese?
19:18<+glx:#openttd>chose (think of the preterit)
19:18<el_en:#openttd>what?
19:18<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: Yexo * r15212 /trunk/src/ (19 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#2566]: Change the dropdown box where you can chose which edges will be water to 4 pushbuttons (based on patch by planetmaker).
19:18<Aali:#openttd>perfect..
19:18<Aali:#openttd>trust the french to know english
19:18<planetmaker:#openttd>Sweet!
19:19<+glx:#openttd>oups the other one in the list chose, chose, chosen
19:19<+Yexo:#openttd>nice work planetmaker :)
19:19<el_en:#openttd>Yexo: English only.
19:19<+glx:#openttd>fuck it's choose, chose, chosen
19:19*glx:#openttd hates irregular verbs
19:19<planetmaker:#openttd>Thx. But you did at least as much work on it, Yexo. Thanks a lot :)
19:20<planetmaker:#openttd>el_en: I propose you start communication in your non-native tongue then.
19:20<el_en:#openttd>planetmaker: Such as English?
19:20<planetmaker:#openttd>whatever.
19:21<el_en:#openttd>Eller svenska? Det går också, men inte så många här förstår det.
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19:22<Aali:#openttd>4-5 personer? Kanske fler..
19:24<planetmaker:#openttd>well :) I guess it's a good time to say good night and thanks for all the fish ;)
19:24*planetmaker:#openttd waves
19:25<+Yexo:#openttd>good night planetmaker
19:25<el_en:#openttd>good night, mr. slartibartfast
19:28<el_en:#openttd>where's the preterit in a present tense sentence anyway?
19:30<+glx:#openttd>el_en: I was wrong :)
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19:31<el_en:#openttd>so human
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19:35<el_en:#openttd>would anyone believe: help, helped, geholpen
19:35<+glx:#openttd>looks german
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19:39<el_en:#openttd>but could be an obsolete english form.. though OED doesn't agree with me.
19:45<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: glx * r15213 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/run.sh: -Fix: AI API regression failed for non unicode builds (different format for NULL pointers)
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20:02<el_en:#openttd>how many of you use a compiler that reports errors and warnings in non-english?
20:07<+glx:#openttd>LC_ALL=C
20:07<+glx:#openttd>LC_ALL=C make
20:08*fjb:#openttd usually doesn't understand non-english compiler messages.
20:08<+glx:#openttd>btw I use VC2008 express in french, VC2005 express in english, and mingw is english too
20:09<+glx:#openttd>but IIRC in my linux VM gcc is in french
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20:13<el_en:#openttd>i've been translating gcc into finnish (based on w-ber's initial translation). despite so far incomplete translation, gcc is the only finnish-speaking C compiler there is, afaik.
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20:15<el_en:#openttd>Microsoft and others certainly don't localize development tools for such a small market, so over the years people have get used to every dev tool being in english.
20:16<el_en:#openttd>probably finnish-speaking gcc will cause some heart attacks for some people.
20:17<Sacro:#openttd>right, how to install openttd on OSX
20:17<Sacro:#openttd>i see no DMG for a start
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20:29<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: glx * r15214 /trunk/src/ai/ai_scanner.cpp: -Fix [NoAI]: ignore case for ai/library main script path on windows
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21:01<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15215 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: various MSVC x64 compiler warnings
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21:35<CIA-2:#openttd>OpenTTD: smatz * r15216 /trunk/ (15 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: native support for Transport Tycoon (Original) savegames. Based on SVXConverter's source code and documentation by Roman Vetter
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21:51<Pieman191:#openttd>its quiet
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21:57<el_en:#openttd>whose quiet?
21:58<Tefad:#openttd>YOUR MOTHER.
21:58<Tefad:#openttd>oh wait
22:01<Aali:#openttd>el_en: english only
22:01<el_en:#openttd>el_en: that most certainly was english.
22:01<Aali:#openttd>english words, maybe
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22:02<el_en:#openttd>a completely syntactically and pragmatically valid question.
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22:02<Aali:#openttd>the correct phrase would have been "who's quiet?"
22:02<Aali:#openttd>thank you for playing
22:02<el_en:#openttd>no, that means something completely different.
22:03<el_en:#openttd>that means "who is", not "whose".
22:03<Aali:#openttd>it does, and it makes sense, your "question" does not
22:04<el_en:#openttd>my question was a reply to the earlier line.
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22:14<Pieman191:#openttd>lulz wat
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22:29<nicfer:#openttd>One question, I've installed the ECS cargo set but I only get the wood sector, how do I activate the others?
22:30<Tefad:#openttd>nicfer: did you try to enable ECS on an existing game? you have to start with a fresh game
22:30<Tefad:#openttd>also i think you have to check compatibiities with other gcfs
22:31<Tefad:#openttd>i mean grf
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22:33<nicfer:#openttd>I started a new game
22:33<nicfer:#openttd>I have no other cargo sets
22:34*Tefad:#openttd shrugs
22:34<Tefad:#openttd>maybe it's an option in the grf thing
22:35<nicfer:#openttd>That cargo set is divided in sections
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22:37<nicfer:#openttd>That's, various grfs
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 23 00:00:23 2009