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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-02-14

---Logopened Sat Feb 14 00:00:11 2009
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04:56<OsteHovel^EEE>I got a new record compiling OpenTTD... i used 1 minute and 5 secounds to compile the newest SVN. Having RAW power of 15.1 ghz (im using Distcc)
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05:32<@petern>1 minute 5 seconds? that's pretty bad
05:33<OsteHovel^EEE>i know
05:33<OsteHovel^EEE>trying to improve it now...
05:39<@petern>i get about 17-18 seconds on my system, but that's for a debug build
05:40<Progman>from a clean checkout?
05:40<Progman>I need at least 17-18 seconds for the language files o_O
05:41<@petern>what do you compile on, a p233? :o
05:42<OsteHovel^EEE>Do you guys use MSVC or GCC?
05:42<@petern>both. that timing was with gcc on linux, though.
05:45<OsteHovel^EEE>when i say my timings they are always including the ./configure script.. and i use make mrproper before running the test,...
05:46<OsteHovel^EEE>new personal record on building svn: just 50 secounds!
05:47<OsteHovel^EEE>this time it was raw power of: 18.3 ghz...
05:48<OsteHovel^EEE>distcc is a very good program
05:51<OsteHovel^EEE>Good morning Mr. Dihedral
05:51<OsteHovel^EEE>Have a god night with alot of sleep Mr. Dihedral?
05:51<Progman>I have read thesedays distcc doesn't scale good enought if you got more than 3 hosts, can you confirm this?
05:52<dihedral>OsteHovel^EEE, i see no upper case char in my nick!
05:52<OsteHovel^EEE>i know...
05:52<dihedral>so i assume you are talking to someone else
05:52<OsteHovel^EEE>nope i wasent talking to someone else
05:53<dihedral>well, i certainly have not been addressed in that line
05:55<Roest>morning d1H3dR4l
05:57<OsteHovel^EEE>Do it exist a lightweight IDE for Linux? im currently using Kdevelop but it woud have been nice to not need all the Qt/kde libs...
05:57<Roest>eclipse cdt
06:01<Progman>kate is more lightweight but still needs kde ;)
06:02<@Rubidium>kate isn't a IDE
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06:02<Roest>kate isnt really an IDE
06:02<@Rubidium>don't call eclipse + java lightweight
06:03<OsteHovel^EEE>Java has never been lgihtweight
06:03<Roest>well depends, eclipse you download, unpack and it runs, i consider that lightwieght
06:03<OsteHovel^EEE>Someone here tried out Code::Blocks?
06:03<@Rubidium>Roest: yeah, then KDE is also lightweight if you've got KDE already installed
06:04<OsteHovel^EEE>Im using Xubuntu on a EEE so i havent got Unlimited Space so i try to remove alot of libs if they are not used
06:04<Roest>i always thought code blocks being some wxwidgets thingy
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>i consider KDevelop lightweigt, i have to just click on it in YaST, and it runs.
06:05<@Rubidium>anjuta? (gnome)
06:05<Wolf01>OsteHovel^EEE, I use code::blocks, but not for OTTD
06:06*OsteHovel^EEE is trying to find/install/tryout anjuta
06:06<OsteHovel^EEE>the one who said that Eclipse was just download and run was LYING
06:07<dihedral> <- that's for Alain :-D
06:07<dihedral>[11:57] <OsteHovel^EEE> Do it exist a lightweight IDE for Linux? <- vim
06:07<OsteHovel^EEE>The first i got when i run it was: A Java runtime Enviroment...... bla bla bla need to be present bla bla bla
06:08<OsteHovel^EEE>dihedral, vim :P
06:08<dihedral>perhaps you might like emacs
06:08<OsteHovel^EEE>i like nano (i know im a newbie....)
06:08<Roest>rubidium cdt is 68MB that's lightweight when you have 1 or more TB hd space ;)
06:08<OsteHovel^EEE>eclipse is MINIMUM 68 mb becouse you also need java and its HUGE!
06:09<Roest>well java is installed anyway
06:09<dihedral><Roest> well depends, eclipse you download, unpack and it runs, i consider that lightwieght <- my grondmother does the same, but she runs very slow and is definitely not lightweight
06:09<OsteHovel^EEE>i dont have java
06:09<OsteHovel^EEE>and i dont need it... so i do not wanna wasste any space on my 4 gb SSD ...
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06:10<dihedral>OsteHovel^EEE, what you wanting to develop ?
06:10<Roest>4 GB ...
06:10*dihedral smiles
06:10<OsteHovel^EEE>dihedral, not sure...
06:10<OsteHovel^EEE>im just testing them all out
06:10<OsteHovel^EEE>C or/and C++ apps
06:10<dihedral>i would use the word "idiot" lightly again, but i think that would not go down very well
06:10<Roest>sorry was talking computers not mobile phones :)
06:11*dihedral knows computers with even less space
06:11<el_en>wtf, did someone just call Eclipse lightweight?
06:11<Roest>that would be me
06:11<dihedral>unless you redefine the word
06:12<OsteHovel^EEE>anjuta is a IDE and its very light...
06:12<Roest>and now we know previously unknown facts about dihedral's gramma
06:12<dihedral>Roest only said it was something that runs out of the box which covers his definition of lightweit
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06:12<dihedral>Roest, i shall find a "lightweight" girl for you :-D
06:12*dihedral googles
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06:13<dihedral>OsteHovel^EEE, an IDE
06:13<dihedral>emacs is the best thing i can think of for your use
06:13<OsteHovel^EEE>just to clearify for everyone... i have a EEE with 4 gb space for system libraries and applications... it has a 1.6 ghz Intel Atom CPU and i have 2gb of ram and i need a good IDE for it...
06:13<dihedral>if it must be an ide that is
06:13<dihedral>else vim
06:14<dihedral>and when i say vim i mean vim not vim.tiny
06:14<dihedral>or vi
06:14<fjb>Vim is great, no need for an ide.
06:14*dihedral nods
06:14<OsteHovel^EEE>nano & xterm & make works good...
06:14<fjb>Vi is not that great.
06:14<OsteHovel^EEE>but its not a ide...
06:14<dihedral>an ide
06:15<OsteHovel^EEE>*an ide
06:15<el_en>nano is almost the worst possible editor for coding.
06:15<OsteHovel^EEE>Do it exist a other edit(*msdos*) clone for linux??
06:15<Roest>i cannot code in simple text editors anymore, i got spoiled by intellisense
06:15<dihedral>el_en, rephrase please
06:15<dihedral>it is (one of) the worst possible editor
06:16<el_en>OsteHovel^EEE: have look at a great editor (which is not an IDE though):
06:16<dihedral>fte is nice
06:16<dihedral>useful if you have like huge space issues
06:17<OsteHovel^EEE>I ran out of diskspace... I forgot to remove Eclipse...
06:17<Alberth>GIMP is nice when programming Piet, I think
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06:18<dihedral>OsteHovel^EEE, which project will even fit in that space you have left if not the ide even anymore :-D
06:19<OsteHovel^EEE>i have more than 1 drive
06:19<OsteHovel^EEE>i have a 8gb drive that i mounted /home
06:20<Roest>why put eclipse on the small one then?
06:20<dihedral>because that is / and he does not know how to install without apt-get
06:21<OsteHovel^EEE>i did unpack eclipse to /opt/eclipse :P
06:22*OsteHovel^EEE is now compilling efte...
06:24<OsteHovel^EEE>i think i stay with KDevelop
06:27<OsteHovel^EEE>kdevelop has a lot of nice functions and it works out of the box using apt-get...
06:27<OsteHovel^EEE>but its not lightweight but shit happens...
06:27<OsteHovel^EEE>* -but
06:28<el_en>when you try out efte, you'll notice you don't need KDevelop anymore.
06:28<Roest>which version of kde are you using?
06:29<OsteHovel^EEE>version 3.5.10
06:32<OsteHovel^EEE>Console IDE..
06:32<dihedral>whats wrong withthat
06:33<dihedral>s/ht/h t/
06:34<OsteHovel^EEE>its cool
06:34<OsteHovel^EEE>thats lightweight
06:35<el_en>press F9 to compile
06:36<OsteHovel^EEE>F9 to compile is in nearly all IDE's
06:36<el_en>not Xcode
06:37<OsteHovel^EEE>isent Xcode for Mac?
06:37<el_en>indeed it is.
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06:39<ccfreak2k>gain_analysis.c:107: warning: ignoring #pragma warning
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06:50<Roujin>hello everyone
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06:55<OsteHovel^EEE>Hi Roujin
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06:58<Steve14>Hi there
06:59<OsteHovel^EEE>Hi Steve14
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06:59<Steve14>I noticed a little bug in the music box, it doesn't play the 22nd track
07:06<@Rubidium>Steve14: sounds you're playing 0.6.3, right?
07:06<Steve14>That's right
07:07<@Rubidium>it's already fixed in trunk
07:07<Steve14>Could verify my problem by changing the names of and
07:08<Steve14>Are there any packages avaible or do I've to compile it?
07:08<Roujin>Belugas: <-- about your comment, would you also have the strings changed?
07:09<@Rubidium>go to the openttd website and look for the nightly instead of the stable download
07:09<Steve14>Ok, thanks for your help, Rubidium
07:09<Roujin>you'll be surprised about all kinds of new stuff available there, too ;)
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07:10<Steve14>What stuff for example? :D
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's a surprise ;)
07:13<smallfly>the performance concerning a game like openttd, written in c# and seems to be very less; i will switch to c++ now; which graphic-api should i use to make the game portable? directx isnt portable, correct? is opengl portable to linux/mac?
07:13<Steve14>Hehe, Is there any patch that pretends the AI from building 90° turns when the option "trains and ships aren't allowed to take 90° turns" is enabled?
07:14<OsteHovel^EEE>smallfly: cant you use C++ and SDL, or Allegro(openttd uses it when you use 3d)
07:14<Yexo>hello :)
07:14<el_en>smallfly: sí, señor. opengl is portable, but it's only a graphics api. you'll have to handle input from user somehow, too.
07:14<Yexo>Steve14: no, but again, try a nightly, it comes with noai, a framework for user-build AIs.
07:15<OsteHovel^EEE>SDL & Allegro is OpenSource and is running under the most used os'es
07:15<el_en>OsteHovel^EEE: openttd uses Allegro since when?
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07:16<OsteHovel^EEE>el_en: when you use 32bpp grapics
07:16<Steve14>ok, thx, I'm downloading the nightly right now
07:16<OsteHovel^EEE>but only in SVN
07:17<smallfly>i dont have any problem with sdl concerning input issues. for that its fine. and if you say sdl (i think you mean the tao sdl lib?) is portable ill use it for that. i used sdl in a c# application. the blitting was very slow. but if openttd is programmed with sdl, i will use it. perhaps the c# wrapper slowed it down too much
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07:19<Steve14>Wowies :D
07:19<Steve14>That's great
07:20<el_en>smallfly: openttd uses SDL only on linux, afaik.
07:20<OsteHovel^EEE>you can compile OpenTTD with Allegro or SDL (when usinig Linnux)
07:20<smallfly>and on windows?
07:20<Steve14>Finally an ingame download menu ^^
07:21<OsteHovel^EEE>OpenTTD can use: Windows: GDI, SDL, (maybe Allegro) | Linux: SDL, Allegro | Mac: Cocoa
07:22<smallfly>whats the fastest of those?
07:22<el_en>OsteHovel^EEE: i don't see a reason why it couldn't use SDL on Mac too.
07:22<smallfly>(i want to program an extension for individual car traffic, which will need thousands of blitting operations per second)
07:22<OsteHovel^EEE>im checking it out
07:22<OsteHovel^EEE>i think both Allegro and SDL is avable for mac too
07:22<OsteHovel^EEE>not sure
07:23<OsteHovel^EEE>checking it out now...
07:25<OsteHovel^EEE>sdl is avable on mac
07:25<el_en>what a surprise.
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07:26<OsteHovel^EEE>openttd can use SDL on mac... but you cant use SDL and COCOA in the same build
07:26<smallfly>mmh ... so why not using sdl on every os instead of using different apis on different os's?
07:26<OsteHovel^EEE>becouse COCOA is maybe faster than SDL on Mac...
07:26<OsteHovel^EEE>GDI in windows is faster than SDL on windows...
07:26<smallfly>gdi is faster than sdl on windows?
07:26<smallfly>thats new to me ...
07:27<OsteHovel^EEE>OpenTTD run faster using Windows GDI than SDL grapic rendering..
07:27<smallfly>i "learned" sdl, because i thought gdi wouldnt be able to blit those (2048^2) tiles
07:27<OsteHovel^EEE>allegro is also posible to use on Mac but the same as SDL you cant have Cocoa and Allegro in the same build...
07:28<el_en>smallfly: no doubt the reason for using native apis is performance.
07:28<OsteHovel^EEE>If you build for Windows you can have GDI, SDL and Allegro in the same build...
07:29<smallfly>ok, so i think ill use gdi to program it on my machine. the i can still integrate other apis for other os's. the input handling works with sdl on every os, right?
07:29<OsteHovel^EEE>SDL is very portable... and it is a very good library for easy access to input, sound, grapics... ;D
07:29<OsteHovel^EEE>SDL works on all major OS'es
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07:29<smallfly>k, thanks a lot for your help ;-)
07:29<Steve14>Is it normal that I've black squares, when I'm using the OpenGFX Interface, Yexo ?
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07:29<smallfly>opengfx lacks some graphics --> black rectangles
07:30<OsteHovel^EEE>You can use SDL input method on every os and then use GDI to draw on windows but if you on Linux you use SDL for drawing...
07:30<el_en>smallfly: if I were you, I'd start with SDL regardless of performance, to avoid limiting potential developers to those running Windows.
07:30<Steve14>Ok, thanks
07:30<dihedral>smallfly, i read you want to switch to c++?
07:31<smallfly>yeah, for performance reasons
07:31<OsteHovel^EEE>Why is OS=wince a posibility in the Openttd configure file but it isent supported...
07:31<dihedral>twerp :-P
07:31<smallfly>i still prefer c# but i think its too slow for my objectives
07:31<OsteHovel^EEE>VB(v.6 or earlier) is better than C#
07:31<dihedral>if you gonna do c++
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07:31<dihedral>then you can just as well patch openttd
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07:32<@Rubidium>OsteHovel^EEE: primarily because it was a work in progress and adding it there doesn't cause (much) trouble
07:32<smallfly>after getting a c++ specialist, ill surely programm some patches for openttd
07:32<OsteHovel^EEE>Rubidium: :P i guessed that... it do infact exist a port for Wince... and it working nice... i use it on my HTC Touch Pro..
07:32<smallfly>the nice thing of my switch to c++: i can use all those thick game programming books bought in the last years
07:33<dihedral>smallfly, i am sorry
07:33<dihedral>but you sound more and more silly the more you talk
07:33<el_en>dihedral: it is a good idea to write something from scratch rather than waste time on the very non-extendable openttd source.
07:34<@Rubidium>OsteHovel^EEE: major problem with those ports is that they mutilate the source code in such a way that you can't compile any other platforms anymore, thus it's very hard for us to use stuff from them
07:34<dihedral>el_en, i am more laughing at the reasoning :-P
07:34<@Rubidium>and even then the ones that have tried couldn't get a working test environment (crosscompiling wince failed)
07:35<el_en>dihedral: well yeah, the reasoning is great. :)
07:35<dihedral>starting off with "readability of c++ is so bad"
07:35<dihedral>going on with "i prefer c#"
07:35<OsteHovel^EEE>Rubidium: i dident say you shoud work on a WinCE port... And Please do NOT prioritise a port to WinCE becouse other things are more important... and the devices do suffer from not so fast CPU
07:35<dihedral>then came the lovely license stuff
07:36<dihedral>and now this
07:36<dihedral>smallfly really cracks me up
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07:38<OsteHovel^EEE>Is there some way to close a window when you are at the main menu widout clicking at the [X] ?
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07:39<OsteHovel^EEE>dosent work
07:39<OsteHovel^EEE>when im at the main menu and have clicked on settings
07:39<dihedral>del, not backspace
07:39<OsteHovel^EEE>Del and Backspace dosent work
07:39<dihedral>alt+f4, command+q
07:39<smallfly>dihedral, as long as you can amuse yourself ...
07:39<@Rubidium>hmm... ofcourse, that's probably coupled to the toolbar gui
07:39<OsteHovel^EEE>If you ingame it works
07:39<OsteHovel^EEE>Ctrl+Q quits the whole game
07:39<dihedral>smallfly, no - i dont amuse myself - i am amused by you
07:39<smallfly>even better
07:40<dihedral>i doubt i am alone there too
07:41<smallfly>dont know where the problem is. our world is cheerless enough.
07:41<dihedral>i am cheering :-P
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07:41<dihedral>i am laughing my head off at times :-P
07:42<Roujin_>you are so mean, sometimes...
07:42<Roest>d1H3dR4l whats going on
07:42<dihedral>Roujin_, i am not mean
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07:42<Roest>you are mean
07:42<dihedral>i just let him know that he kinda makes my day at times
07:43<dihedral>where is that mean
07:43<dihedral>that is a good thing :-P
07:43<Roujin_>telling someone that you are amused by his efforts is mean, in my opinion
07:43<dihedral>Roujin_, besides: he is asking for it, c'mon
07:43<Roest>you were totally mean to that poor dyslexic person too
07:43<dihedral>my last post was great
07:43<dihedral>besides - i know Alain a little bit longer
07:43<Roest>and he's sad now :(
07:44<dihedral>you did not follow his compile success did you?
07:44<Roest>ok so we'll see his patchpack this year
07:44<dihedral>doubt it :P
07:45<Roest>besides i just discovered that improved station build gui, i fear what i'm using myself slowly develops into a patchpack again
07:46<Ammler>Roest: using mercurial this time?
07:46<Roest>uh no
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07:47<Roest>maybe one day i will find the time and will to learn how to use that
07:47<Ammler>using hg like svn doesn't need much additional learning
07:48<dihedral>Roest, when you do - create a post and blatently refuse to do any reading of documentation but rather ask questions, each question in its separate post
07:49<Ammler>or sep thread :P
07:49<Roest>of course, i'm sure that's the best way to get answers and you don't confuse people with several questions in one post
07:52<Roest>and seriously it's much more efficient if someone explains it to you and you don't have to read through poorly written documentation
07:53<dihedral>yes and no
07:53<dihedral>nobody will help you if you dont show some own initiative
07:54<Alberth>and you miss all the nifty features of mercurial that svn is lacking
07:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15477 /3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqbaselib.cpp: [Squirrel] -Fix: disable some standard squirrel functions, among others thread support.
07:55<Alberth>can squirrel not be copied into trunk? that would make keeping up to date so much easier.
07:55<dihedral>Yexo, that looks interesting ;)
07:55<Yexo>dihedral: it's not :p
07:55<dihedral>Alberth, --ignore-externals
07:55<Yexo>threads didn't work properly, only now AIs can't even try to use them
07:56<dihedral>Yexo, no compile time advantage? ;-)
07:56<Yexo>and it disables some other squirerl functions AIs should never use
07:56<Alberth>dihedral: tell that to mercurial when making local repository copies
07:56<Yexo>dihedral: +- 10 functions in one cpp file, don't think that counts :)
07:57<dihedral>Alberth, svn co svn:// openttd && cd openttd && hg init .
07:57<dihedral>Yexo, thought it involved a wee bit more :-P
07:57<Roest>cool someone just suggested priorities
07:57<dihedral>we have priorities
07:57<dihedral>the Suggestion forum is not one of them :-D
08:04<Roest>dont be so negative
08:05<dihedral>Yexo, <- love that one
08:07<dihedral>"with -s null works great, but no sound" <- LOL
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08:10<Yexo>dihedral: can't say I like that first thread
08:10<dihedral>no, i just like your reply
08:11<Yexo>my reply?
08:11<Yexo>I never post in off-topic. Are you not confusing me with someone else?
08:12<dihedral>which thread do you mean?
08:12<Yexo>the first link you posted was to: "TT-forums story - Real version"
08:13<dihedral>i dont even read off topic myself!
08:14<dihedral>i posted the "Help with scenario Editor"
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08:15<Yexo>now I really wonder how I went to that offtopic thread
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08:16<dihedral>you did get me very confused there
08:16<Yexo>about that other post, I really didn't know what to add there, wasn't really any advice I could think off
08:17<Yexo>I know :). Just change the t= in your link to p=
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08:17<dihedral>i either tend to click on it, or do a full copy paste the url
08:18<dihedral>s/the/on the/
08:18<dihedral>or whatever
08:18<Yexo>normally I do to, but x-chat sometimes starts to ignore clicks on links, and if it does, it doesn't copy-paste either
08:18<Yexo>only a restart helps then
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08:19<dihedral>right click: open link in browser
08:20<Yexo>doesn't work as soon as x-chat starts behaving strange, after a restart it all works again
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08:22<Roujin>did someone ever manage to fit > 255 trains through a single line, with a min signal distance of 2?
08:23<dihedral>just make the line long enough
08:23<dihedral>and choose a big map :-D
08:23<@Rubidium>1tl trains
08:23<Roujin>that's not what I mean
08:23<kingj>Then the station becomes a problem
08:23<Roujin>I mean a frequency of 255 trains through a specific tile, during a month
08:24<dihedral>i dont count trains for 2.4 minutes
08:24<dihedral>and if you make the trains short enough, perhaps might work
08:24<dihedral>TL1.5 :-P
08:24<Roujin>I just tried with maglev4 engines (no carriages) and managed 124, with a distance between the trains that seemed a bit less-than-optimal
08:25<dihedral>od train lengths
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08:25<Ammler>Roujin: <-- PileTransport2
08:25<@Rubidium>2 tl, .5 tl trains -> 2.5 tl distance between trains is optimal (for throughput)
08:27<Roujin>well the reason I ask is this: <-- peter asked here if uint8 is enough for that
08:28*OsteHovel^EEE made his own script to get the volume hotkeys to work...
08:28<Roujin>which translates to "can someone fit more than 255 trains through a waypoint during one month"?
08:28<@Rubidium>max speed: ~65000 km/h
08:29<Roujin>okay, I did not take this into account
08:29<@Rubidium>tile is 700 km on a side
08:29<@Rubidium>@cakc 65000/700/2.5
08:29<@Rubidium>@calc 65000/700/2.5
08:29<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 37.1428571429
08:30<@Rubidium>37 a game hour? sounds somewhat wrong
08:30<@Rubidium>@calc 65000/700
08:30<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 92.8571428571
08:30<Roujin>@calc 37*24
08:30<@DorpsGek>Roujin: 888
08:30<@Rubidium>@calc 65000/160*5.6
08:30<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 2275
08:31<@Rubidium>^ that many tiles a day, so 90 tiles an hour seems possible
08:31<Roujin>this 65000 km/h, is this in game units?
08:31<@Rubidium>65535 in game units
08:31<@Rubidium>which translates to 65535/1.6 mph
08:32<Roujin>did anyone ever make a train with this speed? :P (guess that does not count)
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08:32<@Rubidium>Roujin: yes
08:32<Roujin>ok, does any sane person play this game with trains that run that fast? :P
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08:33<@Rubidium>please define sane for me
08:33<Swallow>at openttdcoop they had a special logic train which did...
08:34<Roujin>well, I guess I'll just use uint16 to be safe
08:35<Roujin>hope no one complains about the counter resetting to zero when fitting through 65536 trains in a month
08:36<@Rubidium>just cap it at 255 I'd say
08:36<Ammler>Roujin: I test your patch with our new pile transport
08:36<@Rubidium>@calc 640/700/2.5*24*31
08:36<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 272.091428571
08:37<Roujin>hmm, what's that number?
08:37<@Rubidium>@calc 640/700/3*24*31
08:37<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 226.742857143
08:37<@Rubidium>Roujin: single-headed Chimaera, the second is double headed theoretical max trains per month
08:37<@Rubidium>@calc 480/700/2.5*24*31
08:37<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 204.068571429
08:38<@Rubidium>^ single headed pegasus
08:38<@Rubidium>so with the normal vehicles you can't reach it
08:38<@Rubidium>it = 255
08:39<Roujin>so... way to go is keep uint8 and account for overflow?
08:39<@Rubidium>so I'd say just cap it at 255, but make a comment that with vehicles smaller or faster than the Chimaera it could overflow
08:39<Roujin>i.e. - num++; + if (num < 255) num++;
08:40<@Rubidium>of use the overflowsafe type
08:40<Roujin>which type would that be?
08:41<@Rubidium>the one called OverflowSafeInt
08:41<@Rubidium>though that's maybe too complex for there
08:42<@Rubidium>I'd use if (num < MAX_UVALUE(num)) num++;
08:43<@Rubidium>or at least something so changing the type of num updates the max value automagically
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08:44<Ammler>highest number here is 55
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>make a newgrf engine with length 3/8, speed 65000, long line with no signals, pixel-place the vehicles behind each other so they don't crash, and hit "start all"
08:45<Roujin_>I'd use if (num < MAX_UVALUE(num)) num++; <-- that would be MAX_UVALUE([type_of_num]), no?
08:45<@Rubidium>well, type_of_num doesn't automagically change
08:46<@Rubidium>maybe MAX_UVALUE(typeof(num)) works
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08:48<Roujin_>error C3861: "typeof": Bezeichner wurde nicht gefunden.
08:49<Roujin_>erm, sorry for the german :P
08:49<+glx>msvc user detected :)
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08:51<SpComb>localized compiler errors D:
08:51<Ammler>oh, 61
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: months vary in length ;)
08:52<Ammler>monthly stat isn't that exact
08:52<Roujin_>Ammler: what kind of trains? I reached 144 in a specific test game
08:52<Ammler>shouldn't you make it daily?
08:53<Ammler>3 tile maglev
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>and keep in mind that people might use the daylength patch
08:53<Roujin_>this day: 1 train, last day: 0 trains
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>possibly, make it configurable ;)
08:53<Ammler>Roujin_: well numberOfTrains/daysOfMonth
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>day, week, month, ITiM hours
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08:55<Eddi|zuHause>number of trains per ITiM days would imho be a much more useful statistics than a "month"
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08:55<Roujin_>only when using that patch, though
08:55<Swallow>a patch should be against trunk, not against <insert some patch here>
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>it should not be "against <patch>", but maybe it should be considered "extendible to support <patch>"
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>it is not a primary goal, but maybe a secondary
08:57<Ammler>Roujin_: I bet, you aren't able to make a working (with real transport) network, which has >100
08:58<Ammler>hmm, forget my last line
08:58<Roujin_>just found one in your game? :D
08:59<Ammler>no, but you guys can make 100 mines together and call that network ;-)
08:59<Alberth>Roujin_, Rubidium: Upper limit query:
09:01<Ammler>61 is still the highest here, but really cool patch :-)
09:01<Ammler>I have no WP <40
09:01<Roujin_>Alberth: uhm, I think we already have MAX_UVALUE for that in openttd..
09:01<Ammler>(WP on ML)
09:01<TinoDidriksen>The problem isn't getting the value; the problem is getting the type, portably.
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09:08<Ammler>Roujin_: is that patch "client"-side?
09:09<Roujin_>no, it changes the savegame
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09:10<Ammler>hmm, just liked to suggest it for pm's pack
09:10<Roujin_>what pack? wwottdgd?
09:10<energetic>if you want to remove the 8co/ 11 clients limit, can you let ordinary 063 clients connect to aserver having this limit removed?
09:10<Yexo>energetic: no
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09:11<Yexo>the limit is removed in trunk, so you won't have that problem in 0.7
09:11<Roujin_>energetic: use nightly, limit raised to 15 comp / 255 players
09:11<energetic>Roujin_: we can but our clients cant :)
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09:12<Roujin_>well then you'll have to wait until 0.7 :P
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09:13<dihedral>energetic, why can your clients not?
09:13<dihedral>are those then even the type of clients you want to attract
09:14<dihedral>why do servers have to follow the clients can do?
09:14<dihedral>sounds like you just host a server because of the few clients you have :-P
09:15<Roest>and whats wrong about that?
09:15<dihedral>for those windows users there is by the something like windowsupdate
09:15<dihedral>or autoupdate
09:15<dihedral>talk with zuu
09:15<dihedral>Roest, good point
09:17<energetic>requiring a patch isnt that cool
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09:18<energetic>i can make a patch so we can play pong inside ottd. But that would go past the point of having trunk.
09:18<energetic>cool by default is way cooler ;)
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09:19<dihedral>energetic, requireing a nightly is not that tricky
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09:19<energetic>you get ottdcoop circumstances that way. not coo.
09:20<dihedral>what are 'openttdcoop circumstances'?
09:20<energetic>every other 5min another client required
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09:20<dihedral>energetic, the time you chose to upgrade your server is still left up to you
09:21<dihedral>and you seem not to know how seldom an upgrade actually takes place at coop
09:21<energetic>( no pun intended btw)
09:21<energetic>well, times I played there, I had (check program files dir) 18 updates needed to continue to play
09:22<energetic>over about 3 nights
09:22<energetic>since ottd doesnt have a version control system for endusers, its a pain. At elast: I experienced it as a pain.
09:22<dihedral>energetic, requiring a grfpack is something else
09:22<dihedral>than needing a certain revision
09:23<dihedral>if you dont want to upgrade often, then dont
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09:23<energetic>well, if any player with the latest downloaded ottd can join, no prob
09:23<energetic>then nigtlies etc are great
09:23<Ammler>energetic: that is something like a "pre" noob filter
09:24<energetic>but right now they cant join a r10 game when they have a r9 clients
09:24<dihedral>energetic, duh!
09:24<energetic>why duh?
09:24<dihedral>can you join 0.5.3 with 0.6.3?
09:24<Roest>isn't that what versions are for?
09:24<energetic>as user it is very weird
09:25<energetic>that you have ottd, you cannot join ottd games!
09:25<dihedral>energetic, you seem to be missing a point
09:25<Roest>energetic first you sounded like someone who knew what he was saying, now it's getting a little weird
09:25<dihedral>as Roest pointed out
09:25<dihedral>Roest, like a small fly
09:25<energetic>from a technical and dev perspective it is completely logical r9 users cant join r10 games
09:26<dihedral>or vice versa
09:26<energetic>but from user perspective its totally illogical behaviour
09:26<energetic>they have ottd, and they cant join ottd games
09:26<dihedral>for that kind of users there are tools
09:26<energetic>its as simple as that
09:26<dihedral>search the forums
09:26<Yexo>energetic: have you seen any user trying to join a call of duty 1 server while he has call of duty 2?
09:26<dihedral>energetic, + it works on openttdcoop
09:26<dihedral>nice on Yexo
09:26<Yexo>it's exactly the same here
09:27<energetic>well, major versions are clear to users
09:27<energetic>they are marketed as such, too.
09:27<energetic>basically as different games
09:27<Roest>btw on a totally unrelated note, 250000 scoville is really hot and i should've taken less
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09:28<OsteHovel^EEE>When you browse/selects content to download in content downloading you shoud be able to select/deselect packages with <space>
09:28<Ammler>energetic: it is mostly also possible here
09:28<Ammler>just use --revision
09:28<energetic>i know
09:28<@Rubidium>OsteHovel^EEE: space is already used for the filter
09:28<dihedral>Ammler, energetic will say he cannot start openttd with --revision :-D
09:28<@Rubidium>use enter instead
09:29<OsteHovel^EEE>Hear me out now...
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09:29<energetic>but stupid windows users who bought the game in 94 now wanting to play ottd on the interwebz dont
09:29<energetic>they just wanna click 'join'
09:29<Roest>bad for them
09:29<energetic>its all they know.
09:30<Yexo>energetic: then using a nightly prevents such users from joining your server, that's only an advantage :)
09:30<Sacro>energetic: well they should learn
09:30<Sacro>Yexo: agreed
09:30<OsteHovel^EEE>When i open the Window "Content Downloading" i can click on the filter textbox and enter text fine... but when you set your focus to the List with the packages you can browse up and down with the Arrow keys and Use Enter to select, can you just add space to be able to add packages when the Package list is in Focus...
09:30<energetic>depends on what public you want to attract
09:30<Roest>my mother is 71 and plays world of warcraft, as long that's possible no stupid windows user excuse has any value
09:30<dihedral>energetic, suit yourself if those are the users you want to host games for
09:31<dihedral>they will be the same stupid way when needing help or have ideas for your server
09:31<energetic>well, i think the userbase of ~30 yo ppl having played ttdx and now want to continue playing ottd is quite large
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09:31<dihedral>energetic, continue - you are starting to amuse others ;-0
09:32*energetic is sounding like he is flaming. Thats not /me's intention :)
09:32<Roest>why again aren't you just hosting a 0.6.3 game then?
09:34<energetic>never said I aint
09:34<dihedral>Roest, he's tooooo .... energetic for that
09:34<Roujin_>OsteHovel^EEE: uhm, did I understand you correctly that you suggest making "space" select packages in the content list?
09:35<OsteHovel^EEE>When you have the list in focus(when you can press the Up arrow or Down arrow key to jump between content) it shoud be able to press enter or/and space to select a package...
09:35<OsteHovel^EEE>today you can press enter to select a package but cant you include space as alternative key
09:36<Roujin_>ah yes I see. Well it was space before. I changed it to enter with my patch that added the filter textbox
09:36<Roujin_>because back then the widget focus patch was not yet in trunk
09:37<TinoDidriksen>Space is more common. Enter accepts your current choices and closes the dialog, usually.
09:37<Roujin_>it should not be hard to change it back to space (or both space and enter)
09:37<Roujin_>TinoDidriksen: I know, but space was needed for the textbox and enter wasn't
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10:21<kingj>Accidentally select Giant Screenshot on a 2048x2048 map instead of normal screenshot by mistake, this could take a while...
10:22<@Rubidium>it will ;)
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10:25<kingj>Ah, done
10:25<kingj>426mb heh
10:25<dihedral>what? only?
10:25<dihedral>that more sounds like 256^2
10:26<kingj>No, i'm playing on a 2048^2 map
10:26<planetmaker>@calc 64*32*8*2048*2048
10:26<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 68719476736
10:26<dihedral>the last giant screeshot i took of a 1024^2 map was 1.5GB
10:26<@Rubidium>@calc 256*64*256*32
10:26<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 134217728
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10:26<@Rubidium>@calc 256*64*256*32/1048576
10:26<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 128
10:26<kingj>It's the United Kingdom scenario from
10:27<@Rubidium>dihedral: 256x256 is only 128 MB uncompressed
10:27<dihedral>was close enough :-D
10:27<@Rubidium>@calc 2048*64*2048*32/1048576
10:27<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 8192
10:27<dihedral>then try the 512^2 :-P
10:27<@Rubidium>2048x2048 is 8GB uncompressed
10:27<kingj>And if I drag track from one corner to another, comes to 2047 units, probably missed one square on start of click
10:27<Elukka>downloading the game and the scenario needs much less than a giant screenshot of a big map :D
10:28<dihedral>kingj, you did not
10:29<kingj>So why is my screenshot not as big as you predict? I let it run compeltely, didn't terminate OTTD. Running the latest binary Cargopax build
10:30<planetmaker>some png has some compression afaik
10:30<planetmaker>works nicely for non populated maps :)
10:31<planetmaker>few tres
10:31<@Rubidium>:O a planetmaker ;)
10:31<dihedral>thankfully he does not make giant screenshots
10:31-!-Swallow [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:31<planetmaker>:) a planetmaker playing with generic apple types :)
10:32<planetmaker>and there's a rubidium :)
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10:32<kingj>Cargopax on a map this size can get a bit insane :P, one station has 12k passengers and I just can't get any more trains though the station
10:33<planetmaker>KingJ: make it bigger :)
10:33<kingj>It's already got 15 platforms ;)
10:34<dihedral>that's a small station
10:34<kingj>9k of the passengers want to go to another nearby station though, and the only route there is a 4 platform station. I can't make the station any bigger because then the track will overload
10:34<kingj>and I can't build more track without destroying central london :P
10:34<Timitry>build more tracks then ;-)
10:35<planetmaker>KingJ: Build trans and busses
10:35<Elukka>who cares about central london
10:36<dihedral>if it aint got a big ben, it aint london :-P
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10:36<kingj>Will a lighthouse suffice as symbolism for it ? :P
10:37<planetmaker>no. You'll have to learn grf coding and make one :P
10:37<dihedral>tower bridge?
10:37<kingj>dihedral: Blown up
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10:38<kingj>I also reshaped the Thames because my hovercraft made ugly turns
10:39<kingj>They also tend to clump together
10:43<Roujin__>hahaha loooool
10:43<dihedral>Roujin__, theres one for realism :-D
10:44<Roujin__>dihedral: what? no I mean something else
10:44<dihedral>oh :-(
10:44<Roujin__>okay, it needed a couple of hundreds of clicks but I now have a scenario which exceeds the 255 trains
10:44<Roujin__>I managed 200 in 12 game days
10:45<Roujin__>maglev3 engines
10:45<dihedral>oh my
10:45<dihedral>are you still at that topic ;-)
10:45<Roujin__>yes, I needed up until now to build that scenario :P
10:46*dihedral pats Roujin__ on the head
10:48<Roujin__>building 300 depots in a row and then building an engine in each takes time.. :(
10:50<Roujin__>although I coded myself a little hack that automatically sets all the trains to "ignore signals" so I didn't have to set this for each train, one by one. :P
10:51<Aali>you could just use the vehicle console commands patch
10:51<Roujin__>well, a little FOR_ALL_VEHICLES did the job in my case..
10:52<Roujin__>but thanks for the tip
10:52<Aali>keep it with my clientside patches, almost never use it
10:53<Aali>but for some odd cases its a life saver
10:57<dihedral>Roest, <- he has way more problems than he mentions :-D
10:57<@Rubidium>I'm trying to download Open Transport Tycoon, however, while the site is working quickly and flawlessly, the download itself is incredibly slow and sometimes doesn't work at all.
10:57<@Rubidium>I assume the problem is with the subdomain Both nightly and the normal build don't work.
10:57<@Rubidium>oeps ;)
10:58<@Rubidium>stoopid mouse
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10:59<@Rubidium>still it's strange that he has the problem as AFAIK mirrors aren't working yet (i.e. you won't be sent to a mirror)
11:01<dihedral>my definition of "not working" would be best described with Celestar :-P
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11:42<kingj>Does income rise at the same rate as costs with inflation turned on?
11:42<+glx>that's how inflation works yes
11:44<@Rubidium>no, it doesn't
11:44<kingj>Good, just checking
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11:59<Roujin>any suggestions what I should change the "Most trains in one month" string into to be consistent with the other changes? i.e. "Trains passed this month:" -> "Traffic this month"; "Trains passed last month:" -> "Traffic last month:"; "Most trains in one month:" -> ???
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>Peak traffic?
11:59<Roujin>I currently have "Maximum traffic", does that sound strange?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>Maximum traffic?
12:00<Elukka>i think peak traffic sounds a bit better
12:01<Roujin>but, is it also descriptive?
12:02<Elukka>well, it means the same
12:03<Prof_Frink>Nah, Peak traffic is a queue going to Stanage.
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12:05<Wolf01>does anybody of you develops for windows mobile?
12:05<dihedral>yuck :-P
12:05<Alberth>Roujin: Most traffic in one month?
12:05<Wolf01>I have troubles with an application which should use a database
12:06<Roujin>Alberth: that's good
12:06<Alberth>Roujin: I was thinking along the lines of 'busiest', but that doesn't come out right
12:07<Roujin>now there's one more thing that came to my mind..
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12:07<Roujin>currently the "most traffic in one month" counter is only updated every month
12:08<Elukka>how about "most traffic per month"?
12:08<Alberth>Roujin: "in one month" can be interpreted as such imho
12:08<Roujin>i.e. if the month that just passed had more trains than what already is in there, overwrite that.
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12:09<Roujin>now, an idea I had is, should it maybe also already overwrite that value during a running month?
12:10<Alberth>probably, otherwise it takes up-to a month before the first update
12:10<Roujin>i.e. max traffic == 15, and now the 16th train this month passes the waypoint; "traffic this month" jumps from 15 to 16, should "maximum traffic" now also display 16? or not?
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>imho, yes.
12:11<Alberth>I'd think so, otherwise 'maximum' is a bit weird
12:12<Alberth>You'd have to say 'maximum in the past' or so
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12:18<kosher>I have a little problem with OpenTTD 0.6.3 and GRVTS
12:19<kosher>I just got a possibility to use the 2-section coal truck but. However, it fails to find its way to loading station.
12:19<kosher>Can anybody help me?
12:19<frosch123>you have to use drive-through stops for multi-part vehicles
12:21<kosher>Okay, thanks for help.
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12:37<Roujin>thanks for your input guys, put a new version in the flyspray task
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13:10<@petern>am i here?
13:10<@petern>here i am
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13:10<fjb>Be glad you are thinking.
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13:21<Ammler>How to propose wiki pages for deleting?
13:22<Ammler>like this and the sub (de):
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13:22<Ammler>a failed try ;-)
13:23<Ammler>this one was for the new website only:
13:26<Ammler>guite many there :-)
13:26<frosch123>hmm, though I could just delete it...
13:26<Ammler>I was the only author
13:27<Ammler>and About page is now on the official page
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13:30<frosch123>Ammler: but you added 0.7 stuff which is not yet on the homepage
13:30<frosch123>and I think translating important stuff like the readme is not too bad either, though noone did it
13:31<Ammler>imo, it should be done by the official translators
13:32<Ammler>noone would like my german
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13:32<Sacro>i don't like germans
13:33<Ammler>frosch123: I added some more:
13:33<Ammler>but I guess, the webpage will go to trunk and patched that way, soon?
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13:35<Ammler>I just liked to remove redundancy...
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13:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r15478 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
13:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-02-14 18:38:28
13:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
13:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 2 fixed by UltimateSephiroth (2)
13:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 2 fixed by glx (2)
13:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 3 fixed by IPG (1), alyr (2)
13:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 3 fixed, 4 changed by lorenzodv (7)
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13:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15479 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_industrytype.hpp: -Fix: Documentation of AIIndustryType::CanBuildIndustry().
13:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r15480 /trunk/src/ (56 files in 3 dirs): -Feature(tte): Show the cargo subtype in the vehicle details window.
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14:41<Roest>blah paper rejected
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14:49<@Rubidium>Roest: then supply the printing works with more dyes
14:50<Roest>well the good part is i didnt write, they just took my work and made a paper out of it, so i didn't have any more work with it
14:50<Roest>but would've been nice if it did get accepted
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15:03<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15481 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (9 files): -Fix [NoAI]: Make sure AIs can't call functions they shouldn't call.
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15:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15482 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_company.hpp ai_road.hpp): -Fix [NoAI]: Typos in api docs.
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15:17<OsteHovel^EEE>compiling using a 1.6 ghz Atom cpu takes ALOT OF TIME
15:17-!-db48x [~db48x@] has joined #openttd
15:18<db48x>is there a simple way to add a new sign to the map?
15:18<db48x>I want to debug a patch I'm working on, and the easiest way to do that would be to put a label on certain tiles, much like the town names
15:18<+glx>OsteHovel^EEE: using which compiler?
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>db48x: src/signs_func.h:void PlaceProc_Sign(TileIndex tile); <- something like this?
15:21<OsteHovel^EEE>i found it its faster compiling at my server farm at home(just about 11 ghz in total) using GCC & DistCC and then transfeer it over to my laptop..
15:23<FauxFaux>11 > 1.6? STOP THE PRESSES
15:25<db48x>Eddi|zuHause: kinda. I just want to give it a char* though
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15:28<db48x>seems like RenameSign does that
15:28<Yexo>db48x: what patch are you working on?
15:29<OsteHovel^EEE>i compress the openttd program file using lzma before transfering and then its about 1.2 mb
15:31<OsteHovel^EEE>I cant resize the openttd window...
15:31<OsteHovel^EEE>are openttd resizing disabled in nightly?
15:31<@Rubidium>OsteHovel^EEE: allegro doesn't support resizing
15:32<OsteHovel^EEE>is SDL or Allegro faster?
15:32<OsteHovel^EEE>*What is the fastest of SDL or Allegro?
15:32<FauxFaux>Openttd will run fine on your seriously overkill 1.6ghz...
15:32<@Rubidium>no clue
15:33<OsteHovel^EEE>OpenTTD will run just fine on a EEE 701 that has a underclocked cpu that running at 630 mhz
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>FauxFaux: someone in the german forum is reporting that his game and sound gets choppy on 3GHz
15:33<OsteHovel^EEE>i was talking about the compiling time that was slow...
15:34<OsteHovel^EEE>the game is running at 100%
15:35<FauxFaux>Hehe. I'm reasonably sure it runs fine on my original (900mhz celeron) eee, from the debian packages.
15:35<OsteHovel^EEE>the eee 900mhz cpu is underclocked by asus at 630mhz but with a module you can just clock it up again.... currenttly i have a eee 901 with 1.6 ghz atom cpu...
15:37<OsteHovel^EEE>my pda has a 528 mhz cpu (Qualcomm cpu)
15:38<@Rubidium>bragging about your hardware?
15:39*Rubidium won't be buying a EEE anyway (ever)
15:39<FauxFaux>Perfect for irc on the move.
15:40<@Rubidium>my fingers are incompatible with the keyboard
15:41<dihedral>there are nicer things for irc on the move, if you should be that desperate
15:43-!-mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
15:43-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
15:43-!-mode/#openttd [+v Rubidium] by ChanServ
15:43-!-mode/#openttd [+v Darkvater] by ChanServ
15:47<OsteHovel^EEE>Rubidium: the keyboard is small and the some of the keys are in the wrong place...
15:52<OsteHovel^EEE>cool db48x
15:53<db48x>for future reference:
15:53<db48x>CommandCost CmdPlaceSign(TileIndex tile, DoCommandFlag flags, uint32 p1, uint32 p2, const char *text);
15:53<db48x>void debug(char *str, TileIndex tile)
15:53<db48x> CmdPlaceSign(tile, DC_EXEC, 0, 0, str);
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16:00<db48x>cool, I found the bug
16:00<db48x>it works much better now:,%201st%20Jan%201950%232.png
16:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15483 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove AIIndustry::GetProduction, use AIIndustry::GetLastMonthProduction instead.
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16:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15484 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_company.cpp ai_company.hpp ai_company.hpp.sq): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove AICompany::GetCompanyName and SetCompanyName. They've been replaced with GetName and SetName.
16:07<Elukka>ECS spams way too many fishing grounds...
16:08<Elukka>one largeish lake ought not to have 10 :D
16:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15485 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_industry.cpp ai_industry.hpp ai_industry.hpp.sq): -Change [API CHANGE]: Split AIIndustry::HasHeliportAndDock and GetHeliportAndDockLocation in HasHeliport/HasDock and GetHeliportLocation/GetDockLocation.
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16:11<OsteHovel^EEE>"sudo killall sh" wasent the smartest thing i did
16:11<@Rubidium>OsteHovel^EEE: "sudo kill -9 -1" is better
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>could have tried "kill 1" instead ;)
16:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15486 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_town.cpp ai_town.hpp ai_town.hpp.sq): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove AITown::GetMaxTownID.
16:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15487 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_event_types.cpp ai_event_types.hpp ai_event_types.hpp.sq): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove the never implemented function AIEventVehicleCrashed::CloneCrashedVehicle.
16:14<Elukka>am i correct in thinking pikka's basic industries work with scenarios with default industries?
16:14<Aali>yay, AI breakers!
16:15<Aali>Elukka: either the scenario has default industries or it has pikka's basic industries, make up your mind
16:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15488 /trunk/ (15 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Add support for distant-join stations.
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: industry sets do not replace default industries, they only disable their appearance
16:15<Aali>a scenario is just a savegame
16:15<Elukka>if i load a scenario with default industries, they have stuff like plastic and fuel oil which does not normally exist
16:15<Elukka>wait, i'm actually using a grf called UK renewal industries which may not be the same
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>i think that is an older version of PBI
16:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15489 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove AIAirport::AirportAvailable. AIAirport::IsValidAirportType now only returns true for available AirportTypes.
16:16<Elukka>there aren't fuel depots, of course, but otherwise it seems to work...
16:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15490 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove AIBridge::GetYearAvailable. AIBridge::IsValidBridge now only returns true for available bridges.
16:18<Elukka>looking over it quickly, i dont think loading this on default scenarios breaks any production chains
16:18<Elukka>but i still get stockpiles and some modified industries, yay
16:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15491 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: AIMarine::BuildWaterDepot now accepts a front tile instead of a bool is_vertical (frosch).
16:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15492 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Split AIVehicle::MoveWagon in MoveWagon and MoveWagonChain (frosch).
16:25<db48x>my debug function sometimes crashes the game
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>"Today is big Api-Breaking Day"?
16:25<@Rubidium>don't execute the command with the wrong company I guess
16:25<+glx>better break all AIs once
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i suppose ;)
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>might in the long term be less maintenance than providing a backwards-compatibility API
16:27<db48x>Rubidium: actually, I think it's trying to place a sign on INVALID_TILE :{
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16:28<db48x>the patch itself works
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16:30<+glx>db48x: it should not crash for that
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16:32<db48x>openttd: /home/db48x/projects/openttd/trunk/src/tile_map.h:71: TileType GetTileType(TileIndex): Assertion `tile < MapSize()' failed.
16:32<db48x>so it segfaulted, but only because of the assertion
16:33<@Rubidium>so, it didn't segfult
16:33<@Rubidium>it asserted
16:33<@Rubidium>which is something completely different
16:33<Elukka>haha, i left a map running and forgot i had AI on
16:33<db48x>well, the next line says "Segmentation Fault" ;)
16:33<Elukka>the "alpha" (pre noAI) ai has actually connected just about everything
16:34<Elukka>even with cargodest, most of them are making a nice profit
16:35<db48x>so, who should or would like to review this?
16:38<Roest>that guy --->
16:39<Elukka>on my screen, that would be stan
16:39<@Rubidium>on my screen that would be the IRC equivalent to /dev/null
16:40<@Rubidium>@seen someone
16:40<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: someone was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 3 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 47 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: * Someone here is gay
16:41<Elukka>statistically, more than one of us are gay
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16:41<Roest>interesting, so the gay guy will fix your assertion
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>they have to be useful for something
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16:47<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:48-!-Phoenix_the_II [] has joined #openttd
16:52<Nite_Owl>Hello db48x
16:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15493 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/ (regression.nut regression.txt): -Fix (r15486): Forgot to update regression.
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>the obligatory commit for every AI change :p
16:59<planetmaker>what is this "regression" actually?
16:59<frosch123>type "make regression"
16:59<planetmaker>sorry, if it's an obvious or stupid question...
16:59*planetmaker goes trying :)
16:59<TrueBrain>planetmaker: what is 'a regression'? :)
16:59<TrueBrain>(hint: wikipedia)
17:00<Nite_Owl>going back to a previous state
17:00<TrueBrain>Nite_Owl: how is your PC?
17:00<+glx>it's not his :)
17:01<Nite_Owl>not mine - my cousins - I will be doing the work on it on either Monday or Tuesday
17:01<TrueBrain>his cousins, or what ever it was :p
17:01<TrueBrain>I don't really care ;)
17:01<Nite_Owl>more research between now and then
17:02<planetmaker>Thx, TrueBrain :)
17:02<Nite_Owl>if all this fails the research will turn into what PC she should buy
17:03<TrueBrain>planetmaker: yw (I like helping people with stating the obvious)
17:03<planetmaker>hehe :)
17:03<TrueBrain>Nite_Owl: a 300 euro one :p The average household doesn't require any more :p
17:06<Nite_Owl>True - I will go over with her what she wants if it comes to that
17:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15494 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Split AIRoad::BuildRoadStation in BuildRoadStation and BuildDriveThroughRoadStation.
17:06<Yexo>that were all the api changes for today :)
17:07<TrueBrain>Yexo: you are insane ;)
17:07<Yexo>latest change was by frosch123 btw
17:07<Yexo>TrueBrain: well, the distant-join was needed, so better do all of them at the same time
17:08<TrueBrain>very true :)
17:08<TrueBrain>any chance of the major/minor version? :p
17:08<Yexo>glx is against that
17:09<Yexo>haven't heard other opinions yet
17:09<TrueBrain>fair enough ;)
17:10<TrueBrain>it is only useful for library, and when extending libraries .. shouldn't happen too often ;)
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17:24<TrueBrain>night all
17:24<@Rubidium>slaap zacht
17:24<OsteHovel^EEE>night TrueBrain
17:25<planetmaker>night TrueBrain , night all
17:26<Nite_Owl>later TrueBrain & planetmaker
17:27<dihedral>[23:25] <Rubidium> slaap zacht <- slap zack? :-P
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17:59<BFKeil>Seems like y'all are having a busy day today! Already 19 revisions!
18:02<BFKeil>Anyway, I was just playing with some ECS vectors, and I noticed that ever since r15422 I don't get any money for any of the new cargos. They work just fine if I keep the genworld.cpp from 15421, but that apparently causes some problems other places (FS#2623).
18:06<Yexo>BFKeil: confirmed, I'll try to fix it
18:06<@Rubidium>@commit 15422
18:06<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Commit by rubidium :: r15422 /trunk/src (genworld.cpp openttd.cpp) (2009-02-08 23:06:56 UTC)
18:06<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: -Fix [FS#2623] (r15383): loading NewGRFs before copying the settings.
18:06<Yexo>15383 is causing more problems :(
18:06<@Rubidium>so revert r15422 and part of r15383 I'd say
18:07<Yexo>maybe that's the best solution, but first I'm going to try to find the problem
18:08<@Rubidium>newgrfs must be set up before initialising the economy
18:12<@Rubidium>actually, also the difficulty settings etc.
18:12<BFKeil>Awesome. Thanks.
18:12<Yexo>15383 is completely wrong
18:15<@petern>Was that mine?
18:15<Yexo>Rubidium: reverting both 15383 and 15422 ok?
18:15<el_en>should it be "I'm going to try AND find the problem" in englishshsh?
18:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15495 /trunk/src/ (genworld.cpp genworld_gui.cpp openttd.cpp): -Revert (r15383,r15422): Loading NewGRFs depends on correct settings, but the economy can only be started after loading NewGRFs. In short: r15383 causes more problems then it's worth.
18:18<Yexo>el_en: I've no idea, but that sounds like that you're sure you'll find the problem, which I wasn't
18:19<BFKeil>I like both "try and find" and "try to find"... "try and find" is more colloquial, though.
18:21<Ammler>is it possible to translate "try and find" to german?
18:22<db48x>that's a silly question
18:22<@Rubidium>Ammler: try and find (out)
18:22<Ammler>I guess, that just doesn't exist here.
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18:22<BFKeil>Hmm... "Ich geh mal kurz versuchen, das zu finden"?
18:22<db48x>Ammler: can you translate "try to find"?
18:22<Ammler>that is try to find
18:22<db48x>they mean the same thing
18:23<el_en>Yexo: as far as i understand, "try and find" means the same as "try to find", but the first form seems to be what people actually say in american tv series at least.
18:23<Yexo>quite possible
18:23<el_en>and i don't think they are implying more certainty of finding than with "to".
18:24<Yexo>as long as I'm understood I don't really care about it
18:24<BFKeil>That seems about right. Probably some regional variation on choice of "and" vs. "to", as well. I know the form with "and" drives my father crazy.
18:25<@Rubidium>philosophically speaking "try to find" and "try and find" are not the same
18:26<Ammler>if I translate "try and find" word by word, it is impossible
18:26<@Rubidium>the latter implies that you will find it, the former implies that you might find it
18:27<Ammler>Rubidium: but if you will find it, you don't need to try.
18:28<BFKeil>I don't believe that the "and" in "try and find" isn't the same as the "and" in "John likes Mary and John likes Sue".
18:29<BFKeil>The second "and" is connecting two facts, coordinating them.
18:29<@Rubidium>welcome to the world of ambiguity
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18:29<Yexo>BFKeil: if you state it as two facts, you have 1) You'll try . and 2) You'll find it
18:29<Ammler>maybe the "and" inherits something like "and hopefully"
18:29<BFKeil>The "and" in "try and find" seems to make the "find" somehow subordinate to "try."
18:32<Nite_Owl>"try to find" is grammatically correct but "try and find" is an accepted colloquialism - again; as long as you are understood and not in an English class it matters little
18:32<dihedral>try to find -> you make an effort to find something, with no guarentee
18:33<dihedral>"i'll try to find my sister"
18:33<dihedral>you would not use "and" here
18:34*Ammler is more interested in explainations for "and" :-)
18:34<dihedral>find and try (e.g. software)
18:34<dihedral>as you first need to find then try
18:35<Ammler>still logical but we talked about try and find (try first)
18:39<BFKeil>I'll leave y'all to try your hands at the Gordion knot that is English "and". I'm going start playing r15495 :)
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18:46<Ammler>I'm going to dream about AND
18:46<Ammler>good night all
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18:56<Elukka>one night when i closed my eyes
18:56<Elukka>i saw ttd
18:56<Elukka>really :/
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19:21<kingj>Why would a city be slowly killing off it's population?
19:22<@Rubidium>cause you killed the center
19:22<Elukka>what is the center?
19:23<@Rubidium>just south of the town 'flag'
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19:23<kingj>I've got a HQ to the left of the town flag, and the end of a large station a few squares south
19:24<Elukka>curiously, i've never known that cities have some sort of functional center
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19:25<@Rubidium>the tile just south of the town flag should always be a road tile and it should be connected to the rest of the town otherwise it will not (re)grow
19:26<kingj>Is that the one with the left hand one way signal? (See pic)
19:29<kingj>Ok, I shifted the bridges one unit to the right, as soon as I did that the town built a bit of road there
19:29<kingj>Now I just need to move my HQ to reconnect that road to the city
19:30<el_en>wtf, if what Rubidium just said is true, that's like tip of the decade.
19:30<kingj>And seems to be working - already increased by 1000 pop
19:30<kingj>(Slow growth, 1 in 1 city, 10x multiplyer)
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19:34<db48x>it shouldn't let you delete that road
19:34<db48x>or it should move the city center
19:35<db48x>that would actually be pretty cool to see
19:35<db48x>you could herd the cities to where you need them
19:37<kingj>Yep, town is growing rather explosively. I'm sure my transport network will fall apart shortly
19:39*db48x sighs
19:39<db48x>path-based signals take some getting used to
19:40<kingj>I remember them ages ago from when TTDPatch breifly had them, but their use escapes me now
19:40<db48x>crashed some trains and clogged my roundabout
19:40<kingj>Haha, of all the chances - I have both runways of an intercontinental airport blocked by crashed aircraft
19:41<kingj>However, it dosen't seem to stop planes from landing on one of the runways!
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19:46<db48x>nothing like a slightly short runway to get the blood flowing
19:48<kingj>It seems the pilot would rather fly through the wreck
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19:53<kingj>Hmm, PBS isn't actually that complicated
19:53<kingj>Replace one way entry signals with a one-way PBS, replace two way station platform signals with a regular PBS facing towards the incoming train
19:54<Elukka>in my experience, PBS is easier
19:54<Elukka>if you're all used to normal and pre-signals, it might take a while to get used to pbs
19:55<Elukka>but in the end i find it simpler and easier
19:55<Elukka>besides working better
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20:17<kingj>Converting my network to PBS is going to take a while
20:18<Aali>why would you convert your network to PBS?
20:18<Aali>only use PBS where it's actually better
20:19<kingj>Conversion has also just caused 728 deaths. Oops
20:19<Elukka>where isnt it better or at least equal?
20:19<Nite_Owl>lots of PBS also increases CPU load
20:19<kingj>I like using it on non-roro terminus stations, so in some cases you can have trains entering and leaving
20:20<Elukka>havent thought of that... i've never had a network big enough to cause any slowdown
20:23<kingj>Where do you use them?
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20:24<kingj>Ok, this isn't right, it seems to reserve a path to a full platform?
20:24<Aali>I use PBS where it increases performance :)
20:25<Aali>the pathfinder decides which platform to use
20:25<Aali>if the penalty isn't high enough for the occupied platform, it will try to reserve it
20:25<kingj>I had all 4 platforms, each one with a two-way PBS at the front full. A train entered the one way PBS into the points to the 4 platforms and just went straight ahead
20:26<Nite_Owl>it is best to wait until your junction is clear before converting it to PBS
20:27<Aali>kingj: err, you have two-ways in front of the platforms?
20:27<Aali>pointing which way?
20:27<kingj>As you are coming into the platform, you can see the light
20:27<Aali>thats bad
20:28<kingj>They should be facing the other way?
20:28<Aali>a PBS signal facing towards you is a safe waiting position
20:28<Aali>do you want trains to wait there?
20:28<kingj>Ah, no
20:30<kingj>Seems to work ok now
20:30<kingj>Do I need a one-way PBS on the entry to the points?
20:30<kingj>Or will a regular signal (presignal?) suffice?
20:30<Aali>the what?
20:31<Aali>if you want PBS functionality, you should use a PBS signal
20:31<Aali>presignals dont really combine well with PBS
20:32<Aali>but you dont really need them in a PBS construct anyway
20:33<kingj>Ok, in the entry to a non-roro station (just a terminus) do I need a one-way PBS signal for the line coming into the points that go to platforms, or should I just use a regular signal?
20:38<Aali>you only need one PBS signal, on the tile before trains choose a platform
20:40<kingj>A single PBS signal on the entry path to the points then, thanks
20:40<kingj>Seems to work just as well with a normal signal on the entry path though
20:41<Aali>also note that you don't really need the two-way PBS signals unless you really want trains to leave the platform without having to reserve a path all the way to the exit
20:45<Aali>you should make it PBS
20:45<thingwath>this is the one which really should be one-way PBS :)
20:46<Aali>not sure if you have to with other PBS signals in the segment (the whole signal block gets "promoted" to a PBS block that way)
20:47<Aali>but if you ever remove the other signals (you shouldn't in this case, they help efficiency with those accel tracks), it wont work, so just make it PBS :)
20:48<kingj>Okay, i'll make it a one way PBS in the red circle
20:49<kingj>I wish there was a nice wiki example for terminus PBS signaling, plenty of junction and two-way station examples
20:49<Aali>PBS is easy once you get the hang of it though
20:50<Aali>just remember, a signal pointing towards you is a safe waiting spot
20:50<kingj>Yeah, but I think a lot of people would appreciate that example especially when 0.7.0 goes live
20:51<Aali>then why don't you write it? :)
20:51<thingwath>hm, I always thought that PBS is more intuitive, at least because it works much more like a real railway signals
20:52<kingj>I won't write it because i'll most likely get it wrong ;)
20:52<Aali>thingwath: most people dont know how real railway signals work :P
20:52<kingj>And while it is more like real railway signals, i'm used to OTTD signals
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22:37<db48x>path-based signaling is pretty nice
22:38<db48x>although it'd be nice if a broken-down train would relenquish it's reservation and reacquire it once it's started up again
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 15 00:00:15 2009