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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-03-03

---Logopened Tue Mar 03 00:00:27 2009
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00:33<De_Ghosty>the tree gowing thing is awsome
00:33<De_Ghosty>when you just make a giant map
00:33<Forked>good morning
00:33<De_Ghosty>and press forward
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03:49<Arsonide>So
03:49<Arsonide>Apparently there are some high resolution graphics for this somewhere
03:50<Arsonide>But I'm not familiar with the terminology you guys use...so I'm not even sure what I'm looking for.
03:57<Eddi|zuHause>possibly you mean "32bpp extra zoom levels", but they are not supported in the official version
04:00<Arsonide>They're gorgeous though
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04:06<Arsonide>I assume using new graphics isn't allowed in multiplayer games?
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04:11<@petern>why not?
04:12<Arsonide>In most games using modified files in multiplayer is prohibited. I guess it would affect this game less though.
04:13<Arsonide>I was asking if it was or not
04:14<Forked>modified files != newgrf I belive.. modified is probably "I changed the source code to cheat"?
04:16<Arsonide>And newgrf is the term you use for these 32bpp extra zoom level graphics?
04:17<@petern>no
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04:26<TSC>Arsonide: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/NewGRF explains newgrf
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04:40<planetmaker>hm... would it be possible to add a direct download link to the tars currently availble on Bananas?
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04:45<H>Hello. :)
04:45<Forked>or you could have tried: /me e l l o .
04:45-!-H is now known as [wito]
04:46<[wito]>I accidentally my nick. :P
04:47<[wito]>anyway, has anyone had any success with express lines, e.g. to an airport, where the trains only load (and don't unload) on the way to the gathering point?
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04:57<Timitry>Just use normal load + no unloading orders for the normal stations, and transfer orders at the airport
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05:01<[wito]>Well
05:01<[wito]>given stations A B C and airport D
05:02<[wito]>with those orders, wouldn't that lead to loading at A, unloading and loading at B, etc. until transfer at D?
05:02<[wito]>What I want is passengers from A, B and C delivered at D
05:02<[wito]>without passengers from A at B or from B at C
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>no, because you tell it to "not unload" at B
05:03<[wito]>there is a no unloading order?
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>yes, in 0.7.0, in the dropdown with "full load"
05:04<[wito]>ah
05:04<[wito]>I have 0.6.3
05:06<[wito]>Also, am I understanding the documentation correctly in that station_spread is safe for huge values as long as you are using YAPF?
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>probably not ;)
05:08<[wito]>heh
05:08<[wito]>large+sane, then?
05:09<[wito]>(16-20)
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>cargo delivery from houses to stations is probably the most influental part with station spread
05:09<energetic>cargo from houses?
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>passengers? mail?
05:10*energetic checks definition of cargo....
05:10<energetic>thought it was cargo==goods
05:10<energetic>never mind
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, if you have a halfway modern computer, you should not have any real problems with station spreaD
05:11<energetic>err my bad cargo=payload != goods
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what a payload is
05:12<energetic>great :) we be learning both something today ;)
05:13<energetic>i was hoping on a scret trick to generate goods out of houses there
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>you are misinterpreting my sentencethen
05:13<energetic>no, i was using the wrong definition of cargo ;)
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>i meant the other sentence
05:16<energetic>which?
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05:22<[wito]>I say!
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05:23<[wito]>0.7.0b1 is quite a lift from 0.6.3 ^_^
05:23<[wito]>Now, if I could just figure out how PBS works, I might be able to build me some bypass tracks and express lanes!
05:23<Noldo>put signals on safe waiting positions
05:24<energetic>y
05:24<energetic>i hate typing in the wrong window
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05:27<planetmaker>Now, if I could just figure out how PBS works, I might be able to build me some bypass tracks and express lanes!
05:27<planetmaker>[11:23] <Noldo> put signals on safe waiting positions <-- there and only there :)
05:27<Noldo>good point :)
05:27<planetmaker>:)
05:28*planetmaker remembers several thread where people had problems with exactly that concept, ignoring the "not there" ;)
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05:29<Ammler>station_spread warning is obsolete ;-)
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05:30<planetmaker>wrt speed probably not. Though I don't care :P
05:30<Ammler>(hmm, scroll down next time)
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05:35<Ammler>yeah, you need around 3 pbs lines to replace a good old signal line :-)
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05:36<@petern>http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3234/3035179432_37bcfc74de.jpg
05:36<Noldo>yours?
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05:39<@petern>unfortunately not
05:39<[wito]>hmm
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05:40<[wito]>it appears my junction of choice (the cloverleaf) sort of breaks down with YAPP
05:40<[wito]>that could be because the inner tracks aren't long enough, tho', and thus gives no safe waiting positions. :/
05:40<Timitry>look at this page:
05:40<Timitry>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/User:Timitry/4-way_junctions
05:40<Timitry>just created it
05:41<Timitry>and use the SECOND cloverleaf!
05:41<Timitry>as written there...
05:41<[wito]>ye
05:42<[wito]>it's a bit...
05:42<[wito]>involved. :P
05:43<@petern>argh
05:43<@petern>junction examples :(
05:44<[wito]>cool!
05:44<[wito]>Aqueducts!
05:44<Ammler>Timitry: you should let trains using your junctions ;-)
05:44<@petern>cool, someone who can spell it ;)
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>Timitry: why does it say "3 way" on the heading but then show "4 way" pictures?
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>i hate the opengfx rails...
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>they are too dark, and they look like rendered/anti-aliased without proper hinting, so everything gets somehow fuzzy
05:51<@petern>heh, yeah
05:53<Noldo>beats a black box
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>on the contrary, the existence of this "bad" track prevents designing a proper track graphic
05:54<Ammler>did someone already make bad experience with path_backoff_interval = 1 ?
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>what's that do?
05:54<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: how?
05:55<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: it tells the train, how long it should wait to search for a new path
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: as in "we already have this one, we should focus on missing sprites first"
05:55<Ammler>afaik
05:55<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: that's just delaying
05:55<Ammler>default is 20
05:56<Ammler>which we think is very high
05:56<@petern>you would
05:57<@petern>it's there for a reason, though
05:57<Singaporekid>Is anyone still using IE6?
05:57<Ammler>hmm, someone changed it on a 2k trains map
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>it is the time to wait to retry reserving a path after one reservation failed, right?
05:57<Ammler>he didn't see a difference
05:57<Timitry>petern: "argh, junction examples :(" <--- still better than the crap currently on the wiki, and it's not for advanced players, anyway, and those are tutorials that might help new players to develop their own junctions
05:58<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that was one of the reasons for some to not like pbs on fast tracks.
05:58<Timitry>Eddi|zuHause: "why does it say "3 way" on the heading but then show "4 way" pictures?" ---> Copied the 3-way page, it's now fixed, thanks
05:59<Ammler>with "1", they behave like the ususal signals
06:04<[wito]>well
06:05<[wito]>YAPP is going to take some getting used to
06:08<Ammler>Timitry: junctions in use: http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Junctionary
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06:09<Eddi|zuHause>a few general rules of thumb with YAPP: 1) forget everything you know about signals, 2) replace entry signals with one-way signals, 3) replace two-way-exit signals with two-way path signals facing the station, remove one-way-exit signals, 4) less is more in many cases
06:10<[wito]>Eddi|zuHause: the first one is the toughest to get your head around. :P
06:10<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: 2way signals on terminus stations are just eye-candy
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i like eye candy ;)
06:11<[wito]>Ammler: that's only true with YAPP, no?
06:11<[wito]>With YAPF it's still sensible, innit?
06:11<Ammler>[wito]: of course :-)
06:11<Ammler>" a few general rules of thumb with YAPP"
06:11<[wito]>anyway, Ammler, got a 4-track terminus that demonstrates good YAPP usage? ;)
06:12<Timitry>http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Railway_stations#Advanced_Terminus
06:12<Timitry>Maybe?
06:12<Ammler>"we" do not work with templates ;-)
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>before: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2029.%20Dez%201955.png
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06:13<Timitry>just to give you an idea, of course
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>after: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%201.%20Jul%201981.png
06:14<Timitry>But you could just do like that with 2 more bays: http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Railway_stations#Terminus , and you might want to use safe waiting positions for the exits
06:14<[wito]>huh
06:14<dihedral>^^
06:14<[wito]>Re: #Advanced_Terminus
06:14<[wito]>The 10-bay one
06:14<[wito]>wow
06:15<Timitry>ugly 2*45°-curves
06:15<Ammler>if you add safe waiting, you have also to double the line
06:16<dihedral>else you lose a part of the game ^^
06:16<Ammler>:-)
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06:17<Ammler>safe waiting is like removing a signal on a line
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>a terminus station of mine: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2018.%20Dez%201982.png
06:18<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: do you try to build "junctions" only at stations?
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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06:19<Eddi|zuHause>mostly
06:19<Ammler>"belugas" style ;-)
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>err...
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>:p
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>except this one: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2021.%20Sep%201956.png
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>was a "very few towns" game, so there was no way to place a station near there ;)
06:21<Ammler>I really enjoyed the first cargodest game with celestar, as we tried to build also that style
06:21<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause: that's a nice one
06:21<Ammler>it is not very liked in coop zone.
06:21<[wito]>pah
06:21<[wito]>these stations and such makes my networks look almost childish in comparison. :(
06:22<dihedral>just takes time wito
06:22<Ammler>[wito]: it isn't the 1. game from Eddi|zuHause ;-)
06:22<[wito]>hehe
06:22<Ammler>!s/./st/
06:25<Ammler>dbg: [sprite] Ignoring 1200 unused extra bytes from the sprite from /nars2w at position 2325874
06:26<Ammler>does it help to report such things to pikka?
06:32<Ammler>hmm, there is a bugfix release between...
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06:39<planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=42108 <-- OMG, it's a wiki!
06:40<SpComb>a wikipedia!
06:41<[wito]>mail and goods are only "cash cows", ya?
06:41<[wito]>or do they affect town growth?
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>no, they affect town growth like any other transport service
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06:44<[wito]>ah, ok
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06:46<[wito]>wait
06:46<[wito]>are you saying that iron ore delivered to a city steel mill will affect growth=?
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:47<Noldo>if it's close enough?
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>(if you want a "realism" argument there: the steel mill provides jobs, so it attracts its workers to move into the town)
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06:47<[wito]>actually, steel mills accept passengers from the get-go, for whatever reason
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06:48<Eddi|zuHause>that is unrelated ;)
06:48<[wito]>so I guess Power Station would be a better example. :)
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>and you never heard of the famous soylent green steel?
06:49<Zahl>hmm... could faulty newgrfs cause memleaks?
06:49<[wito]>soylent steel, eh?
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>Zahl: no, grfs have only limited storage space
06:50<Zahl>hm ok
06:54<Zahl>Eddi|zuHause: which os are you running?
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>why does that matter?
06:55<dihedral>depending on the os, towns grow faster
06:55<dihedral>+ you get grf's for windows *w.grf which do not run on linux or mac :-D
06:56<Zahl>well someone has to tell me its either normal that the game constantly uses more mem (about 8k per second with a big game) or tell me its my computer :P
06:56<@Rubidium>Zahl: as long as I can't reproduce it, I can't fix it
06:56<dihedral>are you just missing mem or can you see that it is openttd?
06:57<Zahl>Rubidium: i can send you my savegame... but as you already said, it might be a windows issue
06:57<Zahl>dihedral: i can watch it in the taskmanager
06:57<dihedral>well - if Rubidium looked at it ;-)
06:57<Zahl>dihedral: it starts at ~30Meg and goes up to like 200 if i leave it running long enough
06:58<@Rubidium>the information the task manager shows can be misleading
06:58<Zahl>http://cod.spieleplanet.eu/testsave.sav
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06:58<dihedral>Zahl: it's not the savegame!
06:58<dihedral>oh - wait - you run a patched client?
06:59<Zahl>dihedral: yes, but also happens in the trunk version
06:59<Zahl>and the only think that i modifies is pretty much ticks per day
06:59<Ammler>isn't it just that every cargo packet produce mem?
06:59<dihedral>yes but? on a new game it also happensin trunk?
07:00<Ammler>so you might have a lot waiting cargos :-)
07:00<Zahl>dihedral: seems so, but i did not play a recent version with that many trains.. but anyways... loading this savegame in the trunk version should not behave like that anyway shoud it?
07:01<dihedral>you play a patched client
07:01<dihedral>totally not interesting
07:01<dihedral>and you got Rubidiums opinion on it already - you should valuethat
07:02<dihedral>rather than running around to everybody else who dares to engage in the conversation
07:02<Zahl>well it will take me some time to get a savegame as big as that one in trunk but i'll try :-O
07:02<dihedral>how many trains?
07:02<Zahl>about 1k i think
07:03<dihedral>then you could download a sav from openttdcoop games
07:03<Ammler>Zahl: your save works with trunk
07:03<planetmaker>indeed. E.g. get #131. It's only 600 or so, but 600 vehicles, too
07:04<Zahl>i'll try that
07:04<Ammler>uses 100% of my cpu
07:04<planetmaker>:O
07:05<Ammler>well 70%
07:05<Ammler>but no mem
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>i only know "no ma'am"
07:06<dihedral>Zahl: works steady and fine for me
07:06<Zahl>...
07:06<dihedral>but i am on a mac, so if that should be a win issue i dont know
07:07<dihedral>if the issue is related to win - you just lost ^^
07:07<dihedral>and that is a clean version of OpenTTD
07:10<Zahl>well i got a ottdcoop game now, same thing with recent trunk version...
07:11<Zahl>ok using newgrfs
07:11<Zahl>i'll leave it running for an hour or so
07:11<@Rubidium>Zahl: even a normal game without newgrfs and/or vehicles causes the same behaviour?
07:11<dihedral>unpatched game i hope
07:11<Zahl>to see it it stays like that in the ling run
07:11<Zahl>Rubidium: problem is i don't have a bug game with a recent clean trunk version... it will take me some time to achieve that, but i will try ;)
07:11<Ammler>how long does it take to have "the effect"?
07:12<Zahl>big*
07:12<dihedral>Zahl: what os (exactly)
07:12<Zahl>winxp sp3
07:12<dihedral>then i should be able to reproduce that when i get home
07:12<dihedral>or at least try
07:12<dihedral>and i will not use any patches
07:12<dihedral>if you patch your game that is your own fault ^^
07:13<Ammler>:-)
07:13<Zahl>yeah i know, this is why i'm not starting a big "zomg this game has memleakz" thread in the forums ;)
07:14<dihedral>but you file a bug report!!!!
07:14<dihedral>at least in the forums we could bash you right now :-P
07:14<dihedral>hihi
07:14<dihedral>i loaded the map in clean trunk and it's fine
07:14<dihedral>oh wait
07:14<dihedral>what rev are you playing when you say 'clean trunk'
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>hm... sometimes, when i used my volume keys, kmix eats all my keyboard input :(
07:15<dihedral>^^
07:15<Zahl>and i admit i don't know the source too well, but i just wonder: would it actually be possible that some stupid stuff a patch does gets into a savegame and causes a memleak even in the trunk version?
07:15<Zahl>dihedral: r15599
07:15<Ammler>r15553
07:15<Ammler>hmm, at least, that is what the gamelog says
07:15<dihedral>no
07:16<Zahl>recent nightly just downloaded from the website
07:16<dihedral>Ammler: that could have been the patched version
07:16<Ammler>r15476M
07:16<Ammler>is the gamestart
07:16<dihedral>right
07:17<Ammler>and 15591 is my rev at last
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07:18<Ammler>[13:15] <Zahl> and i admit i don't know the source too well, but i just wonder: would it actually be possible that some stupid stuff a patch does gets into a savegame and causes a memleak even in the trunk version? <-- good question, I guess, that is the reason for the gamelog
07:18<dihedral>what on earth does he mean with a patch getting into the savegame?
07:18<Ammler>I assume, if a save ever is touched by a M-rev, you can drop it as bug report.
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07:19<Zahl_>dihedral: i mean that some bug gets into the savegame
07:20<Zahl_>and that if you load this savegame in a clean trunk version, it causes this behavior, whereas a clean savegame would not
07:20<Zahl_>just technically speaking
07:20<dihedral>and it's a game you added and removed grf's from
07:21<dihedral>you really think anybody wants to support that?
07:21<dihedral>nope
07:21<@Rubidium>I see no reason why it couldn't happen, but it seems unlikely
07:22<dihedral>and cheated the landscape?
07:22<planetmaker>Zahl: Rubidium: patched versions can introduce things like unowned stations and stuff...
07:22<dihedral>no
07:22<dihedral>sorry
07:22<dihedral>my bad
07:23<planetmaker>I seem to remember some mega cool person complaining about funny behaviour of his map made with such patches...
07:24<planetmaker>or is just my memory faulty?
07:24<dihedral>patched games just are the users own silly fault
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07:24<planetmaker>oh... and I didn't see a "n't" in Rubi's answer :P
07:24<dihedral>complaining about them is like - totally stupid
07:24*planetmaker needs more tea
07:25<HerzogDeXtEr>the original landscape generator isnt working, it crashs openttd 0.7.0-beta1
07:25<planetmaker>dihedral: certainly depends upon the patch. A daylength game which doesn't save and change anything else... but then you never know :)
07:26<planetmaker>HerzogDeXtEr: afaik it's fixed in trunk
07:26<HerzogDeXtEr>k
07:26<Zahl_>dihedral: like i said, i'm still trying different things etc, i do not claim the game is buggy (yet ;))
07:26<dihedral>you are asking for support ^^
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07:26<dihedral>or at least you are costing ^^
07:26<Zahl>i know, but you do not have to give support if you don't want ;)
07:26<dihedral>and trying to claim a game is butty with a patched game is just as stupid ;-)
07:27<HerzogDeXtEr>is there still the problem that all indutries are dying on very big maps?
07:27-!-Brokkoli [~Brokkoli@f054022000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
07:27<planetmaker>@r15111
07:27<planetmaker>hm...
07:27<dihedral>?
07:28<planetmaker>dihedral: the revision of the assert fix :)
07:28<dihedral>are you looking for @openttd commit 15111
07:28<planetmaker>yes :)
07:28<planetmaker>ty
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>i really wonder why the so called "junction wikis" never mention this style of junction...
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%2023.%20Maer%201942.png
07:28<Zahl>dihedral: so i guess if it also happens in a ottdcoop savegame it is not a valid argument either because of newgrf? so i should start a clean game with trunk...
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%2026.%20Feb%201934.png
07:29<dihedral>Zahl: clean trunk is the best thing to use if you want to find / report a bug
07:30<Zahl>ok.. might take some time :-D
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07:30<planetmaker>Zahl: if the thing is related to use of newgrf, of course you cannot test it w/o newgrf :)
07:30<planetmaker>but if it isn't - a testgame w/o is far better.
07:30<planetmaker>Zahl: run an AI test game. They build fast and w/o you doing anything :P
07:30<Zahl>but then it could also be caused by ai
07:31<planetmaker>yep
07:31<dihedral>planetmaker: afaik ai's leak
07:31<Ammler>Zahl: if you use a save, type "gamelog" in the console to check if there isn't a midified version.
07:31<dihedral>or at lest squirrel does
07:31<planetmaker>dihedral: ok, then that rules out use of them
07:31<Ammler>also possible coop games are from a modified one.
07:31<planetmaker>might be
07:31<dihedral>+ coop games are usually crammed with newgrf's
07:31<Ammler>maybe 1 or 2
07:32<planetmaker>dihedral: depends on dfinition of "crammed wiht" :P
07:32<planetmaker>But yeah, I usually add all station grfs I can get :)
07:34<@petern>write a patch to remove the unnecessary station class limit!
07:34<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: what bridges did you use?
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i think that was the cantilever replacement set
07:34<planetmaker>petern: even though I didn't find any limit there :) Adding them only defers the decision which to use to ingame :)
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>and the brick viaduct
07:34<planetmaker>ah, brick viaduct might be what I wondered about
07:35<@Rubidium>dihedral: AFAIK squirrel doesn't leak anymore, but given the way you said it: could you give me the game where it leaks?
07:35<@petern>not really
07:35<@petern>if you go over the limit they'll just end up in the default class
07:36<@petern>it is 32 as that was the limit on dropdowns when it was made
07:36<planetmaker>ah... :) That explains why I sometimes have more than the default station in the first entry?
07:36<planetmaker>I always assumed that it was a grf modifying that.
07:36<@petern>yup
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>the buffers grf adds to the default station
07:37<planetmaker>yes. But I once at least had more :)
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07:38<Ammler>are there more then 32 station grfs?
07:38<planetmaker>32 different stations is sufficient though.
07:38<dihedral>Rubidium: i have rather large other leak issues on the vps
07:39<dihedral>it's kinda linked to openttd, but i cannot follow up on the vps
07:39<@petern>...
07:39<dihedral>however, whenever openttd dies, i have an extra 600MB of free mem
07:39<Ammler>hmm, same grf could have more classes
07:39<dihedral>it sucks
07:39<dihedral>^^
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07:41<dihedral>i wish i could find out where the issue was and how it was caused, but i cannot, i dont even get to see the issue within the vps
07:42<planetmaker>dihedral: hm... last time I ran openttd for a day, it also had 570MB of virtual memory reserved. But only 28 resident...
07:42<planetmaker>hm...
07:43<@Rubidium>dihedral: so it can also be that openttd got killed, then another process in another VPS got more memory, wasted that too, got killed and then you looked how much memory was free
07:43<@Rubidium>planetmaker: virtual memory includes stuff like opened 'files'
07:44<planetmaker>what files does it open? Beside newgrfs?
07:44<planetmaker>hm... screenshots it made?
07:45<@Rubidium>the binary, the libraries, tars, network sockets
07:45<@Rubidium>video (if not-dedicated)
07:45<planetmaker>yes. It was my client I had running the whole day to take a screenshot every 2 ingame months
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07:46<planetmaker>and I didn't watch memory over time. So it was just a confirmation on the total amount :) - I guess the virtual memory will after termination also be freed :)
07:46<@Rubidium>and randomised memory allocation causes such things to
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07:47<planetmaker>can you reccomend a tool to log the memory usage over time?
07:47<planetmaker>Then it's easy for me to run tests throughout the day(s)
07:47<@Rubidium>no, but valgrind'll tell whether it leaks
07:47<Noldo>how does the original mapgen use the sprites it needs?
07:48<planetmaker>that's a test which doesn't require the programme to run, right? I've no idea about valgrind...
07:48<@Rubidium>Noldo: you'll have to find out yourself
07:48<Noldo>oh great
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07:55<dihedral>Rubidium: it's a dedicated server, and i went through the issues with TB
07:56<dihedral>and yes, it runs in shared mem
07:56<dihedral>and i can watch the shared mem rise
07:56<dihedral>and i can predict when the app gets killed
07:56<dihedral>it's been going on for over a month
07:56<dihedral>however, this does not happen if it's not running in the vps
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08:06<@petern>heh
08:06-!-Combuster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:06<@petern>http://84.246.155.101:8081/
08:06-!-Combuster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
08:06<Forked> it's OpenTTD!
08:07-!-Mortal [~mortal@217.60.138.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:07<Forked>using that to guide the mouse pointer looks sort of painful
08:08-!-stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-228-38.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
08:08<@petern>impossible :o
08:09<Forked>no delete button? =p
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08:11<planetmaker>nice :) But seems like it's lacking a bit of interface comfort :)
08:12<Forked>mmm Unix
08:12<Forked>what OS on that phone?
08:13<@petern>oh damn
08:13<@petern>i've lost the pointer
08:13<@petern>because
08:13<@petern>it can go OFF THE SCREEN
08:13<@petern>who thought that was a good idea, eh?
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>lmao :p
08:13<@petern>it's series 60
08:13<Forked>haha
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08:14<[wito]>ok
08:14<[wito]>time for a YAPP experiment!
08:14<[wito]>Wish me luck!
08:15<Noldo>luck
08:17<@petern>no signal :(
08:32<|Japa|>wippitty: http://pix.sparky-s.ie/images/d8e5fc78fzwfuw1043j0.png
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08:46<dihedral>Japa: that looks like tiles in a kitchen
08:46<dihedral>a very old kitchen
08:46<planetmaker>could be ground tiles for a toyland replacement
08:47<dihedral>true
08:47<dihedral>that would be lot nicer too ^^
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09:04<|Japa|>I really like the look of this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=760561#p760561
09:05<|Japa|>so I was trying to start replicating it by memory
09:05<|Japa|>also, it's my first attempt at making a GRF
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09:22<@petern>um
09:22<@petern>yeah
09:22<@petern>it's not a grid
09:22<@petern>and
09:22<@petern>no need to do it as a grf
09:22<@petern>do it as 32bpp :D
09:22<@petern>i did a ground sprite similar to that, but no more
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09:27<Eddi|zuHause>can/should 32bpp sets be handled with .obg files?
09:27<@Rubidium>no
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>imho it should. allows people to switch from the default graphics to 32bpp graphics the same way as to opengfx graphics.
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>also allows to show a message window like "openttd must be started in 32bpp mode to support these graphics, the changes will be in effect on the next restart"
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09:37<[wito]>bah! 32bpp!
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09:42<planetmaker>Rubidium: with respect to translation and 1,000 € vs. 1.000 € vs. 10,00.00 €... There's a number of strings which go like "{BLUE}{COMMA}"-
09:42<planetmaker>doesn't the {COMMA} denote how the number is spaced for bigger numbers?
09:43<@Rubidium>no, just that it is
09:43<planetmaker>So far I have no idea on the use of that {COMMA} - I assumed to replace it by {DOT}
09:43<planetmaker>would work.
09:44<planetmaker>(and wanted to test that tonight) :)
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09:44<planetmaker>So... no easy way for a translator to fix that?
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09:45<@Rubidium>as I said... whether commas, dots or spaces are used isn't a language decision
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: {CURRENCY} != {COMMA}
09:48<planetmaker>yes :)
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09:48*planetmaker should have done a stfw before :P
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>as for the Language-{COMMA}-Separator, i had a patch for that.
09:48<Ammler>and currency is a local setting, not language :P
09:48<@Rubidium>as I said... whether commas, dots or spaces are used isn't a language decision
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, languages cannot override currency settings.
09:53<planetmaker>hm... ok, so not translatable change then :)
09:53<[wito]>speaking of currency settings
09:53<[wito]>is the #{sep}### format hard-coded?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2287 <- but has nothing to do with currencies
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09:53<[wito]>because some currencies should have groups of 4, not 3
09:53<[wito]>(most notably JPY
09:54<@Rubidium>[wito]: yes
09:54<@Rubidium>and then JPY isn't the hard one to support; the Indian format'll be the hard one
09:55<[wito]>how is the indian one?
09:56<@Rubidium>1,000 1,00,000 1,00,00,000 1,000,00,000 (or that's what I understand from wikipedia)
09:56<[wito]>but actually, the separator concern would apply to all numbers in the Japanese translation
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so alternating groups of 2 and 3?
09:58<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: your patch would need something like a 2. base language, so you could make language files for de_CH and use de as base, but don't need to replace all strings.
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes, we discussed that already ;)
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>possibly add a "##fallback" pragma?
09:59<Ammler>oh, indded, might be :-)
09:59<[wito]>so changing number formats in translation a no-go on the whole?
10:00<@Rubidium>haven't I said that like a three times already?
10:00<[wito]>yaeh
10:00<[wito]>or actually, I kept subtly rephrasing the question. ;)
10:00<[wito]>Anyway, bbl
10:00<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I don't know how the indian numbering actually works
10:03<@Rubidium>comma is used at levels of thousand (1000), lakh (100 000) and crore (10 000 000) which would suggest at 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, ...
10:05<@Rubidium>but then the wiki seems very inconsistent to me
10:10<@petern>handy
10:11<@Belugas>comic pack... too bad it cannot be used somewhat :(
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10:14<dihedral>what is it lisenced under?
10:15<@Rubidium>other pages seem to suggest that indian is last group of 3, groups before that of 2
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>do the indians themselves even know?
10:15<planetmaker>Belugas: yeah... :S that'd be a nice look :)
10:15<@Rubidium>chinese/japanese seem to want to add their 10 000/100 000 000 etc. characters in between
10:16<@Rubidium>so you'd get something like 2 million 345 thousand 678
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10:17<|Japa|>ohh, what'd I miss here?
10:17<@Rubidium>yourself
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, more like "2M345k678" i presume, since they would be "1-character-words"
10:17<dihedral>Rubidium, nobody else missed that ^^
10:18<|Japa|>we talking languiages?
10:18<|Japa|>klingon needed
10:18<|Japa|>:P
10:18<@petern>thousand separators
10:18<|Japa|>oh
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>not languages, numbering formats
10:18<|Japa|>so for the possibility of having Rs. 10,00,00,00,000 ?
10:18<|Japa|>want
10:20<@petern>if you ... really wanted
10:21<|Japa|>I'd learn to program, yeagh
10:21<dihedral>planetmaker, as for crashed planes: "bei dem unfal gab es {num} tote und ein paar zwerquetschte" ^^
10:21<dihedral>|Japa|, really?
10:22<planetmaker>dihedral: you're a registered translator :P
10:22<dihedral>hehe
10:22<dihedral>i was makeing a joke, not wanting to force it into the strings
10:22<planetmaker>hehe :P
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>that was actually funny ;)
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10:25<|Japa|>dihedral, if I can't even manage to download the source, it doesn't bode well for my chances of sucess at anything programming wise
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10:28<nicfer>hi
10:29<@Rubidium>not being able to download a tarball sounds like a serious offense to me
10:29<|Japa|>hi
10:29<|Japa|>well, not gettin SVN to work right, anyways
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10:32<@Belugas>planetmaker, it would look so much better than all those photorealistic packages ;)
10:33<nicfer>I'm wondering - would be too many work to rewrite industries like towns?
10:34<nicfer>that would be, if you destroy a tile (like houses in towns) it gets rebuilt in a nearby place
10:35<planetmaker>Belugas: well... not necessarily better IMO. But it would IMO be THE replacement for toyland :)
10:35<planetmaker>And then really look nice.
10:36<planetmaker>And it's something very unique in its own. Nice style
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: yes, that would be too much work
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>comic as 32bpp replacement for toyland... interesting idea
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10:40<@Belugas>planetmaker, it would be better. not just for toyland
10:40<@Belugas>photorealism makes the game loos part of his ...
10:40<@Belugas>interest
10:40<@Belugas>appeal
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>but the images i have seen from the comic set might be too much based on "real" building to suit as toyland replacement
10:41<planetmaker>Belugas: well... :) I like both styles. Variety's the spice of life ;)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>i agree with belugas, photorealistic breaks the game style. besides, some of the perspective-trickeries get really apparent with pseudo-photorealism (e.g. the shortened wagons)
10:41-!-|Japa| [~Japa@117.201.98.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>(or other scale "misalignments"
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>)
10:44<[wito]>Rubidium: re japanese number format: japanese only usually adds the characters when the number is written as a word
10:44<[wito]>(like you would on a check)
10:45<[wito]>when they write as numbers they write 1.0000.0000
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>how does that work anyway? in latin-based alphabets, this "word" writing of numbers on checks was introduced as a measurement to avoid cheating (e.g. replacing digits, or adding digits) because you can replace the words less easily by just writing over them
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10:48<TrueBrain>hello lovely people
10:49<@Rubidium>hello lovely person
10:49<TrueBrain>:)
10:49<+glx>hey TrueBrain
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>hm, in germany that works differently...
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>one person says "Prost ihr Säcke"
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10:49<Eddi|zuHause>and the others reply accordingly "Prost du Sack" :p
10:50<@Belugas>TrueBrain!
10:50<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: nobody cares about german people
10:50<TrueBrain>they are insane
10:50*TrueBrain hugs Belugas
10:50<@Belugas>Welcome back!
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>that might be true, but the two statements are totally uncorrelated :p
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10:53<TrueBrain>every 6 months I order for the same amount of money a new HD ... a few years back that was 160 GB ... now it is 1 TB ... weird times ..
10:54<Yexo>hello TrueBrain
10:54<TrueBrain>Yexo: I redirected some user to you with a NoAI related question
10:55<TrueBrain>didn't feel like reading what he was asking :p
10:55<Yexo>that's fine, but I haven't seen any question yet
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11:01<TrueBrain>bleepy: would you mind either staying or leaving?
11:03<@Rubidium>seems like he likes leaving
11:03<TrueBrain>that I gathered, yes
11:03<TrueBrain>thank you for that clearification ;)
11:03<TrueBrain>hmm .. my C application fails to download at 100 mbit/sec :(
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11:06<@Rubidium>read in bigger blocks?
11:06<@Rubidium>write in bigger blocks?
11:06<TrueBrain>it is reading
11:06-!-wollollo [~martin@dyn1204-191.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:07<TrueBrain>and I guess I need to increase the sendbuffer of the socket yes :)
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11:07<Eddi|zuHause>anyone lingually and musically educated enough to explain to me how to translate the musical intervals ("Prime", "Oktave", "{große|kleine} {Sekunde|Terz|Sexte|Septime}" and "[verminderte|übermäßige] {Quarte|Quinte}") into english?
11:08-!-wollollo [~martin@dyn1204-191.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #openttd
11:08<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: I can translate some of them into french ;)
11:09<planetmaker>http://www.dict.cc/?s=verminderte+Oktave <-- Eddi
11:10<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: ^ :P
11:10-!-goodger [~ben@host86-148-8-231.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
11:11<nicfer>release dates suck, and is one of the motives because some games are ruined
11:11<nicfer>example, duke nukem forever
11:11<nicfer>lol
11:12<Firzen>How to solve a new grf conflict?
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>err... i don't think this "example" fits your statement
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>Firzen: deactivate one.
11:13<Firzen>Do the clients need to download the grf files manually?
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>Firzen: if the GRFs are not available on the content server, they have to be downloaded manually
11:13<Firzen>Ok.
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>an established quasi-standard for that is the Coop-GRFPack
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>which should contain about 98% of the GRFs found on servers
11:14<Brokkoli>it does not ;)
11:15<Brokkoli>but at least about 80% *g*
11:15<TrueBrain>nobody likes a smartass
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>93,6% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
11:15-!-tokai [~tokai@p54B8031C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:15<planetmaker>:)
11:15<Brokkoli>try the crawler http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/ to find the grfs
11:16<planetmaker>that's no good way, if you want people join your server. You need a central grf repository for that
11:16<Brokkoli>but u dont have...
11:17<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no 0% of all statistics are made up on the spot
11:17<planetmaker>well... bananas is one. And the coop grfpack is the predecessor with some grfs more
11:17<Brokkoli>if you want people to join your server, only use bananas grfs
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11:17<planetmaker>which cannot or won't be uploaded to bananas.
11:17<Brokkoli>yes the coop is ok
11:17<planetmaker>We won't include bananas content anymore, though
11:17<Brokkoli>why?
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well, basically, that is a direct lemma of "Do not trust a statistics that you did not fake yourself"
11:18<planetmaker>Brokkoli: why should we? It's much work to update.
11:18<Brokkoli>not to much
11:18<planetmaker>And bananas is usually more up to date.
11:18<Brokkoli>and i think its worth the work
11:18<planetmaker>Brokkoli: you did it already several times, eh?
11:18<Brokkoli>no i didn't
11:18<TrueBrain>I see this channel gained an other know-it-all
11:19*planetmaker wonders how people aways see things other people do as "not much work"...
11:19<Ammler>we we only delete grfs from the pack anymore, I hope ;-)
11:19<Brokkoli>ok sorry i havn't meant it that way
11:20<@Rubidium>planetmaker: is it much work for them? No, then it's not much work
11:20<planetmaker>main reason is: bananas is up to date.
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: if you can convice MB to put the DBSet 0.9 on bananas ;)
11:20<planetmaker>Rubidium: :)
11:21<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I'll definitely give it a try :)
11:21<Brokkoli>or the newships
11:21<Brokkoli>would be great
11:21<planetmaker>But then, I think, it was easier, if bananas allowed to download the grfs via webinterface
11:21<planetmaker>That way also TTDP users could use it.
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't hope for a near release of another newships grf
11:21<TrueBrain>planetmaker: or TTDP could use the open protocol to make an ingame thingy too! :)
11:22<Brokkoli>ok not a new but the old one.. for the "bananas-only" users
11:22<+glx>TrueBrain: I'm following your howto crosscompile for mac, works quite well (I already have i686-apple-darwin9)
11:22<@Rubidium>planetmaker: nothing prevents them from implementing the protocol
11:22<planetmaker>That'd be the nicer solution, certainly :)
11:22<TrueBrain>glx: yeah ... when I write documentation, it mostly adds up ;)
11:22<TrueBrain>nice to see there is still interest in that ;)
11:22<Ammler>don't think there will be big new feature for ttdp anymore.
11:23<TrueBrain>then why bother at all ;)
11:23<+glx>TrueBrain: it's more like we have a weird problem with osx 10.3.9 nightlies (and we don't know yet what cause it) ;)
11:23<Ammler>well, but something for the server admins would be nice.
11:23<TrueBrain>glx: so I read
11:24<TrueBrain>and by the lack of a certain person to produce any binary for 10.3.9 .. I guess it isn't going anywhere either ;)
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>OpenTTD would not be where it is now if it did not have TTDPatch to lead it (feature-wise)
11:24<planetmaker>TrueBrain: dedicated servers :)
11:24-!-Sacro [~ben@static-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
11:24<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: and visa versa ;)
11:24<planetmaker>And it would make grf authors more comfortable, I think, as their work is then available from _one_ place, even without a client
11:25<+glx>TrueBrain: yeah, that's why we need another way to try things ;)
11:25<planetmaker>"it's not much work to implement a download of the tars" :P
11:25*planetmaker hides
11:25<+glx>btw I have a 10.3.9 pearpc VM
11:25<Ammler>TrueBrain: currently, you have to load a save local and transfer the content to the server...
11:25<TrueBrain>glx: creating your own i686-apple-darwin9 most likely won't really help
11:26<@Rubidium>TTDP seems to be killing itself by not making a new release and thus having people disregard it as they downloaded the stable and can't get many things working
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11:26<TrueBrain>glx: the problem might be in the fact it is darwin9 .. you might also want to try darwin8, although there shouldn't be any difference :)
11:26<planetmaker>Rubidium: might be, yeah
11:26<TrueBrain>Ammler: then I wonder how I download AIs via my dedicated server
11:26<+glx>but the weird thing is it stopped working without any changes
11:27<TrueBrain>I guess it is my imagination that those files get where they should go ...
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>so i am not the only one who finds it weird that they started 2.6.alphas before finishing a 2.5 release?
11:27<TrueBrain>glx: well, that might be only perspective :) No 'registered' changes ;)
11:27<TrueBrain>I think it is a relocation error .. might be the binary size, might be the blocksize ..
11:27<TrueBrain>who knows :)
11:28<TrueBrain>glx: but having a VM to test on, might greatly help solving the problem ;)
11:28<Ammler>TrueBrain: workaround was to download all, indeed.
11:29<Ammler>but that might fail, if a older version is needed.
11:29<TrueBrain>'a server' and 'older version needed' doesn't combine
11:29<TrueBrain>ever
11:30<TrueBrain>as even as client you can't download an 'older' version (unless you join an already running server with an older version)
11:30<TrueBrain>glx: anyway, good luck ;) I hope you can find something .. let me know if you need anything :)
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>you can, if you e.g. run a 0.7.x server and 0.8-nightly, some grfs might be flagged as "requires 0.8-nightly", while an older version of that grf might be available for 0.7.x
11:31<TrueBrain>(I would btw start with compiling OpenTTD under 10.3.9 natively, see if that fixes theproblem ;))
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>so if you run both servers with the same data-directory
11:31<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: a non-issue for the situation Ammler created
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11:32<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you accidently updated, and want to roll back to the older version, because you did not like the changes?
11:33<Ammler>that is even not possible for the uploader ihimself
11:33<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: and having a method to download via the websites solves that ... how? :p
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>hm... that might be a point ;)
11:34<Ammler>if you load the save, it outputs the grfid and md5sum
11:35<wollollo>logout
11:35<wollollo>logout
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11:36<planetmaker>[17:33] <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and having a method to download via the websites solves that ... how? :p <-- that's two completely different issues
11:37<TrueBrain>planetmaker: we were talking about that, right?
11:37<TrueBrain>Ammler started wining about something to me, so I can only conclude it was related to that :p
11:37<planetmaker>yes, we were talking about web download at least initially :)
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11:37<TrueBrain>at least I am not going mental ;)
11:37<Ammler>hmm
11:37<planetmaker>Ammler's issue is indeed another.
11:37-!-Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1101.odnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
11:38<planetmaker>But it's a valid one IMO, too :)
11:38<TrueBrain>so wine to who ever you need to wine about that
11:38<TrueBrain>just not to me :p
11:38<planetmaker>it's very tricky to get the needed grfs of a savegame to a dedicated server
11:39<planetmaker>Well :)
11:39<Ammler>is the source available?
11:39<TrueBrain>'the source'
11:39<TrueBrain>don't you just love people
11:39<Ammler>of bananas
11:39<TrueBrain>'is the internet down'
11:39<TrueBrain>lol
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=42112 <- please, i do not get this guy... the things that i think he is proposing can never work properly...
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: "the whole internet?"
11:41<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: YES!
11:41<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: RUN!
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i had such a discussion a few days ago
11:42<@Rubidium>yup, googling google breaks the internet, which is a small black box
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, a meta-discussion, as in "what do you respond when someone asks this kind of question"
11:42<TrueBrain>Rubidium: with a light on top of it!
11:42<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: in the same line of questions: what is the black hole?
11:42<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I think he has a serious issue with understanding how these signals are meant to work and how he can use them to create exactly what he wants.
11:42<TrueBrain>(mind the 'the', not 'a')
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i'd relay that question to planetmaker ;)
11:43<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: the part of you that talks shit ;)
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>he's the expert ;)
11:43<TrueBrain>Rubidium: nasty :p
11:44<TrueBrain>hmm .. Xen seems to drop my IO performance with 50% ...
11:44<TrueBrain>I need to add I am downloading at 100 mbit/sec .. so IO delays are very noticable ;)
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11:57<Brokkoli>i've got an idea about a new "pbs signal" there are now pbs and pbs-one-way... sometimes i'd need a thing which acts as a pbs-one-way from one side - blocking the way back - but from the othere side there should not be a valid stopping position.. so it's no signal at all... just kinda "oneway-sign" for tracks
11:57<Brokkoli>how about that?
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>wow, a completely new never-heard suggestion! how rare is that!
11:58<planetmaker>lol @ Eddi|zuHause & Brokkoli
11:58<planetmaker>Brokkoli: play the game, test the signals and find out
11:58<planetmaker>or look into the wiki
11:58<Brokkoli>there is no signal like that
11:59<Brokkoli>or is it?
11:59<planetmaker>have you played with path signals actually?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>no, there is not, and i don't think there will be
11:59<Brokkoli>sure
11:59<Brokkoli>why not?
12:00<Brokkoli>sometimes i got problems with trains turning around.. and going the wrong way.. because there is nothing like that
12:00<planetmaker>you cannot block one way and at the same time allow passing through from that side
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>the two remaining signal types are kinda-reserved for "advance" (yellow) path signals
12:00<Brokkoli>from the other side
12:00<planetmaker>Turning trains is another issue. Change wait_on_pbs_signal = 255
12:00<planetmaker>or something like that
12:00<Brokkoli>i know
12:01<Brokkoli>but sometimes turning is ok
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i think you are missing the point
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12:01<planetmaker>I guess :)
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12:01<Brokkoli>i'll create a screenshot
12:02<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: oh... I think, I get it now. Just a "no entry" sign.
12:02<planetmaker>right, Brokkoli ?
12:03<Brokkoli>yes
12:03<Brokkoli>http://einniemand.dyndns.org/openttd/pbs.png
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>yes. i think they might be kinda useful on certain complex switch-blocks
12:03<Brokkoli>the red line is a valid parking position
12:04<Brokkoli>but the blue signal is not ok there
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12:04<Brokkoli>- but when i don't have it there trains could turn around and go the dotted line
12:04<Brokkoli>so it sould be only a no-entry
12:04<Brokkoli>in the blue circle
12:07<@petern>i prefer to not let my trains turn around
12:07<Brokkoli>me too, but by default they will do
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12:08<Brokkoli>and its a server setting, not a client setting.. so i cannot avoid it
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>i'd prefer my trains would throw a message instead of turning around when they are stuck
12:08<Brokkoli>yes
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>but nobody listens to me
12:14<@Belugas>what?
12:14<[wito]>am I the only one who uses LHD? ;)
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12:18<Eddi|zuHause><Belugas> what? <- exactly. ;)
12:18<@petern>[wito], no, all sensible people do
12:18<@Rubidium>but it isn't the right side of the road
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12:30<[wito]>Rubidium: of course it isn't
12:30<[wito]>it's the left
12:30<|Japa|>I've had a problem with PBS sometimes
12:30<|Japa|>I get trains playing leapfrog
12:30<|Japa|>is there a way to avoid that?
12:31<[wito]>|Japa|: I hope I won't get quieted for telling you this;
12:31<|Japa|>?
12:31<[wito]>but real track configurations are generally a N-S track and a S-N track with a central two-way track
12:31<|Japa|>hmm...
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>|Japa|: not reliably
12:32<|Japa|>makes sense
12:32<[wito]>The two-way two-track configuration is simply not a realistic approach to building railways
12:32<[wito]>This extends to roads as well;
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>[wito]: it is, but the signalling system is not able to handle it very well
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>[wito]: many german double track lines are refited for "Gleiswechselbetrieb" (i.e. operating both rails in both directions)
12:34<[wito]>ORLY
12:34<[wito]>Well, at present rail conductors are often somewhat more intelligent even than YAPP. ;)
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12:34<|Japa|>well, the line I travel on a lot here in india has 4 tracks on it
12:35<[wito]>I assume that cycles 3-1, 2-2, 1-3?
12:35<|Japa|>also, http://pix.sparky-s.ie/images/bkg446512akz8bcncjb.png $%%@#%^$$%^@ coal mine
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12:35<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is you cannot reliably tell the slow trains to not attempt overtaking
12:36<|Japa|>I guess I have to test with different distances between crossovers
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>(also, realistically, the slow train will go on the "wrong" track, you can't model that properly either)
12:37<|Japa|>I wonder if there's a good way to handle trains of different speeds on the same track
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>|Japa|: i have given up on attempting a bi-directional double track. they are usually too crowded in either direction, that overtaking is simply not possible, and if overtaking is possible, the wrong train attempts the overtake
12:38<[wito]>I've been doing a bit of testing with that
12:38<[wito]>not with PBS, tho'
12:38<[wito]>that's what I'm going to test now
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>what i have done meanwhile is having freight trains split to a secondary track near intermediate stations, and forcing them to wait there, while any faster train behind them will overtake
12:39<|Japa|>specially with cargodest, it makes sense to have local and express trains
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12:40<Ammler>3 lines where only the middle one is bidirectional works well
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i have done this for a really overcrowded line
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12:41<[wito]>Ammler: I take it that works best when you use VA crossovers instead of XX ones, ya?
12:41<nicfer>lmao, my antivirus is detecting that explorer.exe (a system's task!) is trying to create a file called autorun.inf
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12:42<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Cottbus%20Transport,%2029.%20Mai%201930.png <- for example this stations, the freight trains will be scheduled to wait on the siding even if they have nothing to load/unload at the station, to allow faster passenger trains to overtake them
12:42<|Japa|>you's be surprised how many viruses names themselves explorer.exe
12:42<Ammler>[wito]: not sure, what you mean
12:43<[wito]>Ammler: on a N-S track: N-branch, N-merge, S-branch, S-merge ....
12:43<nicfer>that app is in the directory c:\windows
12:45<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: are all signals pbs there?
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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12:46<Ammler>he, you don't like X
12:46<[wito]>Ammler: I don't like X. :P
12:46<[wito]>It causes my trains to do these silly 90 deg maneuvers at all times. .P
12:47<Ammler>[wito]: disable that
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>[wito]: you can turn off 90° curves
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12:48<[wito]>does that work with YAPF?
12:48<[wito]>I thought that required NPF
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>cool... i still have the build for this paxdest savegame! :p
12:50<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: we need the advance signals :)
12:50<Ammler>[wito]: I guess, at least NPF
12:51<Ammler>yapf is a little bit more :-)
12:52<[wito]>ah
12:52<[wito]>I thought (because of the name) that YAPF was something else entirely
12:52<[wito]>but if YAPF is more like NPF++, I guess it would work. ^_^
12:52<Yexo>it is, but it also supports that setting
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%2023.%20Maer%201942.png <- my triple-track section
12:53<[wito]>heh
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12:53<[wito]>turns out that specific aspect has been clarified in the 0.7.0 patch interface
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12:53<[wito]>instead of (Requires NPF) it says (Not with NTP)
12:54<[wito]>don't know why I haven't tried turning it on before, tho'. :P
12:54<[wito]>sillynoob is silly. :P
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>come back when sillynoob has run out of silly
12:58<[wito]>hehe
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%202.%20Jan%201942.png <- PS: this is why triple-tracking that section was necessary
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>PPS: don't try to scroll on a screenshott
13:00<[wito]>Eddi|zuHause: that's surprisingly hard
13:00<[wito]>What's even harder is not holding tab when images are loading slowly. ;)
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>well, i don't have that reflex
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13:05<@petern>and the unpause button does not work :(
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>hm... this game has serious daily hiccups... it's basically unplayable...
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13:12<[wito]>such as?
13:12<[wito]>also
13:12<[wito]>in the german station names, I see a lot of Gbh
13:12<[wito]>what does that mean?
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13:14<Eddi|zuHause>"Güterbahnhof" as in "Cargo station"
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13:15<Eddi|zuHause>compare to "Hbf" (Hauptbahnhof -> Main station), "Pbf" (Personenbahnhof -> Passenger station), "Rbf" (Rangierbahnhof -> Shunting station)
13:16<[wito]>so is that a manual renaming convention, or is that part of the language files (a.la. Mines, Forest in English)?
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause>that is manual
13:20<[wito]>k. :)
13:24<[wito]>how, by the way, does the 'Distant Joining of Stations' work?
13:25<[wito]>nm. :P
13:25<[wito]>"When in doubt: CTRL key."
13:26<@petern>aka "hidden feature" key
13:26<[wito]>ya
13:27<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: How did you cheat in your alpine game to make the town grow?
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea, it just did...
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>or i remember wrongly and the town actually was below the snow line sometimes...
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>i have a trunk-loadable version of that game somewhere... (only changes back then were daylength, station catchment radius and middle stop, i believe)
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>(later i added yapp, and maybe a few other patches)
13:32<Ammler>frosch123: since when doesn't a town grow in apline?
13:32<Ammler>well, maybe we have only arctic games, need to check...
13:34<Ammler>yeah, the games I had in mind, were before newindustries
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13:35<Ammler>might be possible, Eddi|zuHause started that game before too :-)
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>i started it with an early version of newindustries, afair
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>it went on a rather long time
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>now... i am sure i uploaded the savegame before... but where...
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13:38<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Regenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Apr%201970.sav <- might require right-click and save as
13:40<frosch123>that is a different game
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>right
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>misread
13:40<Zahl>dihedral: starting 1k-trains-in-clean-trunk project now, wish me luck (whatever that means here :p)
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>starts with R, too ;)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r15602 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-03-03 18:40:15
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 fixed by tucalipe (1)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 1 fixed by habell (1)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 1 fixed, 12 changed by planetmaker (13)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 fixed by alyr (1)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 fixed by fanioz (1)
13:40<Sacro>SPAMMAH
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Jan%201972.sav
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>matches the regexp "R.*wald" :p
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>nobody reads the middle of a word ;)
13:42<frosch123>you hacked dbset ?
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>where? what?
13:43<frosch123>i have only a compatible grf
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, i did, but afaik not when i started that game...
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>weird...
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>i edited the introduction dates for the oil wagons for a later game
13:44<planetmaker>full-moon hacker Eddi|zuHause :P
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember doing anything else with the dbset
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13:45<Ammler>he needed to test his compiler ;-)
13:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the town is not above the snowline for the whole year :)
13:46<frosch123>or, maybe it is
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>i have a savegame of july, where the town appears to be exactly on the snow line
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>it says "requires food" there
13:49<frosch123>that is said when the town is above summer snowline
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>i have towns way below the snow line that say that
13:52<frosch123>ok, started a new scenario with a town definitely above snow line, and it also grows
13:52<frosch123>at least when funded
13:55<frosch123>ah, yes, funding building circumvents the food/water test
13:56<db48x>maybe that's what you're spending your money on
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but afair i funded buildings only once
13:58-!-Powerek38 [~chatzilla@static-62-233-206-85.devs.futuro.pl] has joined #openttd
13:58<Powerek38>hello
13:59<Powerek38>is there any vehicles that enables to carry products from new industries (like fruit, oil seeds etc.) by road? I've found it possible only by rail so far...
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>i'm always amazed about how many connection stubs i have spread around the whole network...
14:00<[wito]>Powerek38: I think there's an RV refit NewGRF
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>Powerek38: yeah, for example the german road vehicle set
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>it adds lots of trams, and busses, and it makes the regular trucks carry new cargos
14:01<@Belugas>plus, of course, it's german.
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>there is also pikka's "hovs" set, but afair that one is unfinished
14:01<Powerek38>Eddi|zuHause: ok, I'll check whether I've already downloaded and added that German set
14:02<Ammler>Powerek38: there are a lot just check grfcrawler
14:03<Ammler>(dunno, if there is a rv set not supporting new cargos)
14:03<+glx>eGRVTS should be able to transport thet too
14:03<Ammler>(would at least be harder to find ;-)
14:07<Powerek38>ok, thanks a lot :)
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14:10<@Belugas>funny... another example of "i dowloaded it all, but i do not know what it's used for"
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14:11<Aali>obviously, more grfs = bigger e-penis
14:11<@Belugas>and as usual, more on something == less on other...
14:12<@Belugas>like .. brain ;)
14:12<@Belugas>by the way, i'm pretty stupid!
14:12<Noldo>oh?
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14:41<batti5>Announcement: The First version of Romanian Train Set has been relased, v0.1
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15:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15603 /trunk/src/ (core/alloc_type.hpp gfx.cpp): -Fix [FS#2696]: crash when using an extraordinarily large sprite as cursor.
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15:35<Zuu>Hmm, now thats a neat bug, using an extraordinary lange cursor sprite. :-)
15:35<Zuu>large*
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15:37<@Belugas>like... protect the bugs.openttd.org from noobs who try their best to overpopulate it
15:37<@Rubidium>yeah, cursors in excess of 128x128 pixels (8bpp) or 64x64 pixels (32bpp)
15:38<@Rubidium>like the aircraft of OpenGFX
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17:16<el_en>B*!
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17:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15604 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2661]: towns would only build houses where the grid would not be, even when they aren't allowed to build roads and the user 'implements' another layout.
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17:54<RS-SM>hmm
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17:58<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:59<RS-SM>hello
17:59<Nite_Owl>Hello RS-SM
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>huhuu
18:01<Nite_Owl>Hello Eddi
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18:12<Cutter>hi
18:13<Cutter>why is it impossible to build diagonal rails on slopes?
18:13<Cutter>is it planned?
18:14<Brokkoli>it isnt?
18:14<Brokkoli>not impossible
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18:14<Cutter>how?
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few design problems before even starting to implement those
18:16<Brokkoli>its not possible?
18:16<Cutter>Eddi: what problems?
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>like the connection between sloped diagonal rails and level rails, because the "cut" must be orthogonal to the diagonal rails, but the tile border is not
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18:17<Eddi|zuHause>also, diagonal slopes are steeper than normal ones
18:18<Cutter>right
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18:19<Brokkoli>ah now i understand shich slopes you mean ;)
18:20<Brokkoli>w
18:20<Cutter>what about one rail half sloped half levelled?
18:21<Cutter>so the connection doesn't have to be in the middle of a cell
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18:26<Eddi|zuHause>then you need at least 3 adjacent tiles for a complete slope, so you need tile-sets that cannot be split
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>currently, each rail tile is handled individually
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>so you need additional (program) infrastructure to handle multi-tile-rails
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>which might be cool, because similar infrastructure could be used for wider road curves, two tile wide highways, it could be used as a basis for newgrf road stations
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>but it is a hell lot of work, and it must be designed properly
18:30<@Bjarni>diagonal slopes will need quite a lot of coding. I guess Eddi|zuHause pointed out one major issue with the multi tile tracks
18:30<@Bjarni>but also slope handling for acceleration is hardcoded for one tile
18:31<@Bjarni>in fact quite a lot of stuff is hardcoded for the current use
18:31<@Bjarni>if this were easy to add, then it would have been done a long time ago ;)
18:32<@Bjarni>like signals in tunnels. If it were as easy as some people imagine then it would have been added years ago
18:34<@Bjarni>also regarding different grades of slopes: if it should be of any use then we would need a better resolution of height. Say we want half of the grade, then we would need a tile border that's say 3 and 1/2 over sea level, but we can only accept 3 or 4 in the current design
18:35<@Bjarni><Cutter> so the connection doesn't have to be in the middle of a cell <-- currently all rail code is hardcoded to have the rails in the middle of a tile border. I guess it would be messy to change that
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>the multi-tile-issue gets even worse, since they are actually multi-half-tile (people WILL demand to put two rails in parallel)
18:36<@Bjarni>I wouldn't mind the result, but recoding to allow this would be like starting over
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18:38<@Bjarni>I think ludde started coding 9 years ago. It goes without saying that changing something fundamental is hard at this time
18:38<@Bjarni>also it would waste a lot of the time already spent coding
18:39<RS-SM>This game
18:39<RS-SM>by the way, what engine is it, or is it some horrible custom make
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18:43<Eddi|zuHause>whatever you mean by "horrible", the "TT engine" was created by Chris Sawyer by himself
18:45<@SmatZ>RS-SM: what game?
18:46<RS-SM>oppen ttd
18:47<@SmatZ>RS-SM: what is bad about using "custom" engines? do you have any idea what engine could be used?
18:47<RS-SM>no, I don't mind custom engines
18:47<RS-SM>Its just from hearing all the code talk
18:47<RS-SM>this game seems like it has 2 cores
18:48<@SmatZ>2 cores?
18:49<RS-SM>2 core parts, since it acts like a early 90s DOS game, yet the modern hacks like that underground rail thing someone showed off
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>you mean there would be less code-talk if it was a "non-custom-engine" (whatever that is)?
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, if only that "someone" would continue developing that :p
18:50<Cutter>has openttd been rewritten from scratch?
18:51<@SmatZ>RS-SM: I don't think there's something "modern" about it...
18:51<Cutter>or is it based on Chris Sawyer's code?
18:51<RS-SM>II'mt trying to say cutter
18:51<RS-SM>Er um..
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>Cutter: it was disassembled
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>and then rewritten in C
18:53<Cutter>ok
18:54<Nite_Owl>I thought it was C+ or did that come later
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>that was done later
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>large parts of the code are still C, which is just compiled as C++
18:57<RS-SM>thanks Eddi
18:58<@petern>heh
18:58<@petern>should there be some universal game engine or somethiing? :o
18:58<Aali>we should be using the crysis engine
18:59<Brokkoli>great idea ;)
18:59<Aali>you'll need one modern computer per train, but thats fine
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>PS: ohloh says it would take 40 person years (i.e. 4 years with a 10 person team) and 2.2 Mio $ to rewrite openttd from scratch
18:59<Brokkoli>Chris Sawyer himself didn't need that time...
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>chris sawyer did not write all of openttd
19:00<Brokkoli>thats true
19:00<Brokkoli>but i think 10 person years would do it..
19:01<Brokkoli>still a lot of time ;)
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>whatever you think that 10 person years are...
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>PS: that does not include designing the graphics
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19:03<Brokkoli>10 person years = 10 persons, 1 year, about 200 days * 8 hours
19:04<Brokkoli>yes graphics are another big thing
19:06<@SmatZ>10 person years = 3652 programmers, 1 day ... simple as that
19:06<Brokkoli>lol exactly
19:06<Brokkoli>or 5258880 programmers, 1 minute
19:07<@SmatZ>8-)
19:07<Aali>so all we have to do is find 3652 people, great
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>so, 10 persons, makes 80 person-hours per day, makes 16000 person-hours during this 1 year, so each developer needs to write on average 10 loc per hour. if you then factor in that not all persons involved in the project would actually contribute code, and there is management overhead and stuff, i don't think you can assume 10 loc per hour
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>plus, you need a factor of 2 for unforseen problems
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>i'd rather go with the ohloh estimate than yours
19:08<Brokkoli>depends on the programmers skills ;)
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>that makes the programmers more expensive
19:09<Brokkoli>thats true
19:09<@SmatZ>live long and prosper, COCOMO
19:09<@Bjarni>SmatZ: V
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: i learned that at some point, throwing more people at a project will not make it finish faster anymore ;)
19:10<Brokkoli>so no 5258880 programmers?
19:10<@SmatZ>hehe :)
19:11<@SmatZ>if I were paid by what cocomo says, I would be a millionare already
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: not all costs for a developer are actually his wage
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>there are equipment costs and stuff
19:12<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause:
19:12<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: true, I need a new BMW every year ;)
19:12<RS-SM>You sound like my uncle
19:12<Brokkoli>ok we need 5 million computers now
19:12<RS-SM>Brokkoli: make a virus
19:12<@SmatZ>:-p
19:12<Brokkoli>great idea
19:13<RS-SM>then use botnets?
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>no, but you need an office, a desk, a decent computer with two monitors
19:13<Brokkoli>may i include it in openttd?
19:13<RS-SM>make it so
19:13<@Rubidium>SmatZ: I wouldn't need a BMW every year
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19:13<@Rubidium>only a driver with his 'tools' ;)
19:13<RS-SM>my dream for open TTD though
19:13<@SmatZ>hehehe :)
19:13<RS-SM>underground stations
19:13<Suicide_King>hey
19:13<Brokkoli>two monitors?
19:13<RS-SM>could it be done?
19:13<@SmatZ>RS-SM: sure
19:14<Suicide_King>is there any way to see what new servers are starting up?
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>Brokkoli: at the company i am, all developers (who asked for it) have got a second monitor approved
19:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15605 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h misc_gui.cpp network/network_gui.cpp): -Codechange: constify a function
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>more space -> easier development
19:14<RS-SM>dual monitors rock for editing
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19:14<RS-SM>it makes it easer to actually see what you are working with
19:15<Brokkoli>yes
19:15<KingJ>I have dual monitors, 24" wasn't enough :P Added a second 19"
19:15<@SmatZ>it's true there are big and good enough for development monitors for <200E nowadays
19:15<RS-SM>What programmes do you code
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>does that matter?
19:15<Sacro>RS-SM: programs
19:15<RS-SM>no, no
19:16<RS-SM>I will use the english of the british isles, it reads better
19:16<Sacro>where are you from?
19:16<RS-SM>I am stuck in USA land
19:16*KingJ waves a british flag
19:16<Sacro>well you are using the wrong spelling
19:17<RS-SM>Oh?
19:17<Sacro>programmes are on TCV
19:17<Sacro>*TV
19:17<Sacro>programs are on a computer
19:17<@Bjarni>*TGV
19:17<Sacro>hush Bjarni
19:17<RS-SM>ah open TTD
19:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15606 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fileio_func.h): -Codechange: make it possible to not recursively search with the file scanner (i.e. only search a single directory).
19:19<@Bjarni><RS-SM> I am stuck in USA land <-- I'm so sorry but I can't do anything to fix that issue. You will have to work on that yourself
19:19<@Bjarni>:P
19:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15607 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Codechange: support searching files without filtering on extension.
19:20<@Bjarni>just wondering. Why aren't you guys sleeping right now?
19:20<@Bjarni>I know I should be, but I slept during the afternoon so...
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19:21<KingJ>It's only 00:20, psh
19:22<Brokkoli>1:20 here
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20:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15608 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h): -Codechange: use the file scanner to find the files for the saveload window.
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>next step: scenarios ;)
20:14<Brokkoli>*g*
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23:05<Suicide_King>hey, anyone starting a game?
23:08<Suicide_King>let me qualify that - is there a better way to find games that are starting up, other than looking through the servers the game can find and hoping that there is one with a current date close to the start date?
23:09<Suicide_King>it's more fun to join a game that's starting, rather than one where there's already a winner
23:12<Suicide_King>so... is this the right channel to ask these questions or is there somewhere it would be better that I went?
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 04 00:00:30 2009